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- [00:00]
A
So as a former professional tennis player loosely and now a professional coach working on tour, one thing that I see constantly, even at the very highest level of the game is players working incredibly hard, but not always smart, not always in the most structured of ways. Now there's so much information around strength and conditioning that it can become a little bit overwhelming for people. You know, players are just adding more hours, more sessions, more volume when what they really need, they need clarity. And I've seen technically excellent players out there plateau in their tennis not because of their skill level but because their physical foundations weren't strong enough to support their game and their talent. That's why for me, tennis athlete is the platform that sets the standard. It provides a clear, structured approach to strength and conditioning. Every program is age appropriate. It's research informed and it's delivered by SC coaches with proven track records of long term results. It's the platform that I trust when it comes to physical development. And if you're ready to take your development seriously, head over to sototenis.com tennisathlete that's sototenis.com SL tennis athlete. Because physical preparation is one of the biggest controllables that you have. Welcome to episode 287 of Control the Controllables. And we have a young man, a young man who made the last 16 Roland Garros this year in Zach Za. And Zach, I mean, what a story. This is the one you want to listen to. You know, someone who didn't really play tournaments when he was younger. You know, someone who used a full size racket, age 2. You know, someone who was, who has gone on already to play the greatest male player of all time in Novak Djokovic. Sam, second round at the US Open in 2025 and won the first set against him, which actually happened to be a very special match in his life. And he's also played Janik Sinner, he's played Taylor Fritz. He's only 23 years old, but he's already putting together a fantastic career. He's currently 69 in the world. He's been a career high of 62, but he's growing, he's building and he's a brilliant guest that you are going to thoroughly enjoy. So I'm going to pass you over to Zach. So, Zack Zweider, a big welcome to Control the Controllables. How you doing?
- [02:56]
B
I'm doing well. Thank you for having me here.
- [02:59]
A
What an absolute pleasure. And I know we've been talking for a while, Zach, but about making this happen. But I was like I'm not going to get him on until he gets at least the last 16 in a, in a major championship. You know, I thought you've got to really earn the right for controller controllables and as much as want to hear your story and, and we will delve into all of that, I, I have, I have it on good account that you an incredibly good 2 year old. So I want to get, I want to get into your top spin forehanded age too. But I, I have to start with Ronan Garros, I have to start with Paris. An incredible tournament and you obviously a big part of that last 16, made a real run, obviously lost to Caboli in a, in a very tight match before he went on and made the final. What are, what are your reflections on, on your rolling? Yeah.
- [03:50]
B
Roland Garros this year was such a special tournament for me and honestly very unexpected just from how much I grew up on the clay, which I never did. I haven't played many clay court matches at all and I also didn't do too well leading up to Roland Garros. I had one match win, I think out of five tournaments. And so I just try to stay positive and my team and I were putting in a lot of hard work and when I played my first round and I started to feel much better on the clay once I got there and when I won that I was like, wow, like, okay, I could like win a match or two on the clay and then the rest, like, I just started to work my way through, started playing better each day and it was just so special.
- [04:39]
A
And in terms of, because this tennis player thing around, I have to feel confident. Oh, I'm not feeling the ball. Oh, I don't feel confident. Oh, I'm not so sure. You know, we're very feely, we love the touchy feely chat. You know, how much emphasis do you put on that with regards to, or, or how much emphasis are you able to switch away from? Actually, you know what, I don't need to be confident. I need, I just know I have my certain processes that I need to stick to.
- [05:06]
B
Right. When I was younger I would always think like, okay, I have to win to stay confident or, or I need to be feeling the ball well like a lot of times how I do in practice to really, you know, try to just have a good result. And then now, as you know, my fifth or sixth year now like on tour and I've learned like we could all hit the ball well on any day and we put in so much hard Work, like I said. And I know on any given day, if I play well or have give it my all, anyone could win, especially at our level now. And so I just try to keep that in the back of my head. And that's really what happened in French Open at Roland Rose.
- [05:50]
A
And what about the court surfers thing? Because again, I know you're someone who likes to take the ball early. You know, you have had some good results on grass courts and, you know, the hard courts. How do you think nowadays maybe we're going away from just traditional clay court tennis, you know. And how much do you think tennis is changing on the back of that?
- [06:11]
B
I definitely think it's changing a lot. I mean, people, as you can see watching, are being so much more aggressive. They're coming in a lot more and I feel like the court speeds are getting a little faster. Roland Garros in Paris, it was so hot the first week and my coach said too, like, it's literally playing like a hard court, which was like, it helped me in a way because I grew up on hard court my whole life.
- [06:35]
A
So, yeah, and I was there as a coach and. But I am a big tennis fan, you know, I love tennis and you know, in and amongst these Grand Slams, yes, I'm, I'm coaching and I'm doing my job, but I, I am also a tennis enthusiast who's watching these great matches and, and feeling the event. And I know that when Jannik Sinner lost, I was saying on the podcast beforehand, no disrespect to, disrespect to Yannick Sinner, but I am finding it a bit boring. I'm a little bit sick of him just beating people three and three and winning in straight sets. And Janik's won again and nobody's testing him, but when he went out, it felt there was a complete shift, a complete shift in just how the tournament was viewed. I think the next round we went on and I think there was like the next two or three days, there was 12 out of 18 of the men's matches went to five sets. You know, it felt like wherever you were watching was these five set battles. As a player who was in that event, how did that make you feel? What impact did that have on you when you see Yannick Sinner going out the event and you now know there is going to be a first time winner at Roland Garrett?
- [07:46]
B
You know, when I found out about that, I could, I think, speak for everyone here in the locker room and all around the players area. It really got quiet. For many days. And I felt like. Like we are so much. We're obviously focused and wanting to win this tournament, but when he was out, like, even a few of my friends on tour weren't really speaking to anyone. And we were just so locked in because we know, like, you know, it's a little bit easier now since he's out. We could, anyone could. It's up for grabbing, taking the title. And I just told myself, you know, just take it day by day and try not to even think about getting to the finals. Try to take it match by match. But I could definitely feel the tension in the locker room, walking or in the player's cafe just like, it's way more, like quiet and focused and everyone's just surrounded by their team only and. But it was definitely, you know, cool to have that experience and to be a part of it too.
- [08:40]
A
Did you believe you could win it?
- [08:42]
B
I did for sure. You know, I didn't think so. Honestly, like, when I first arrived there, I was just hoping to really win a few sets and hopefully a match. But then as I started to feel more comfortable, got the first round or two, I, like, I knew, like, okay, I'm feeling good and Yannick's out, or even if he was still in, you know, I always have that believance in me, like, I could win against anyone.
- [09:08]
A
I guess you were. You were only a set or two away, potentially from the final. If you look at what happened to the body, right. You know, Cabali, I know. Who did Kabali play after you? He played, I believe it was Felix, so. That's right. So he played Felix and then he got the walk over in the semis, but, you know, you lost a very tight match with cavalry. Tell us a little bit about that. And. And how do you feel after losing a tight match like that in a fourth round of. Of a French Open?
- [09:36]
B
After losing that match? It definitely gave me a lot of confidence knowing that I could, like I said, could hang against some of the best players and if not, beat them if I'm playing really well. And that match was really special. It was my first time there on center court, and the first set or two, I was a little nervous, wasn't playing at my best, and a little bit more passive. And he really took it to me. He has his big forehand, big kick serve. And then I told myself, okay, I gotta be more aggressive and just play like how I normally do. And that's how I got the third set, then the fourth set could have gone anyways. It was so close. It came down to just a few points in the tie break.
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A
And who was physically more ready for the fifth, do you think?
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B
Honestly, I felt pretty good out there even with the clay because clay's a little bit more physical, but I felt good and I was ready for a fifth. Definitely.
- [10:31]
A
Okay. With only we needed another, we needed another five set match in that now a, a slightly more emotional direction. You know, I've, I've, as you know, I'm good friends with, with Matt who, who I'm sure will, will talk about Matt Hanlon, who's been a big part of your tennis from an early age. But, but I also know that the biggest influence of your tennis was, was your father, you know, and I was, I was watching Tennis Channel clips the day that you beat Serendo, you know, and you very bravely and openly and shared shared your emotions on that was one, one year to the day of, of your, of your father's tragic passing. How's that been? You know, I know he's been an incredible influence, but you know, kind of a year. Yeah. And a bit on how, how has that last year been? How have you been able to I guess bring the spirit of your dad alive through, through your tennis and, and how much did that mean during Roland Carros to have that run with him watching down on you?
- [11:39]
B
It was actually his birthday the day I won. So that was, that was even just like more special. It was crazy. And I was thinking about that too like before the tournament and I was literally mapping out on the dates like I, if I win in round three on May 30, that's his birthday. And like I was like, wow, it actually came true. But going back to the last year or honestly two years because he passed away of cancer and you know, it was so sad once we found out. And at first like I didn't want to play tennis anymore. I just wanted to take care of him where I grew up, back home in San Diego and he wanted me to go out there and play and that's, you know, he started with me when I was 2 years old and that's what made him happy when he could stay in bed and just watch me on TV at any tournament. And so I try to take that with me and even still and knowing that he's watching. And it was actually last year after US Open when I lost to Djokovic in the second round. That was his last match tournament he ever saw before his passing. And that was really so, it was so sad but so special. We got to, you know, out of all the matches, see that one at Wow. U. S. Open play in front of Novak.
- [13:07]
A
And what were his, what were his last messages in your regards to your tennis? Because sometimes I'm, I'm a dad, my son plays tennis. I'm a part of his tennis. I'm not the, the. The coach per se, but when you have these, these special bonds, you know, in, in a sport like ours, you know, what, what are you playing for now? You know, what are those things that he, that he taught you that and, and the last couple of things that he's really wanted you to take now into your tennis that will. Will inspire you throughout the rest of your career.
- [13:41]
B
He's taught me so much, like, he started with me when I was 2 years old, and I know he just wants me happy on court, and he's all. He always told me, like, if I'm not happy, don't. If I'm not doing well mentally, don't go to that practice or, you know, I need to be fully locked in as much as I can in that practice or in the match. And now I always just take that with me. And we put in so much work together at a young age and all the way through so far, like, my career, and I always just think of him now in the back of my head when I'm playing, and one of the main reasons why I play now is to play for him. And I think that's honestly why I've had a good year so far this year. And just keeping that in the back of my head, like, obviously I want to do well, like, for myself, but I think I think about them every single moment, every second, and it just helps me in the back of my
- [14:38]
A
head, the, the late, great Jim Lure, who we, who. I don't know if you came have come across Jim or his work as a sports psychologist, but Jim worked with many, many tennis players over the years. And, you know, unfortunately we lost him a couple of months ago, but he. I was fortun him on the podcast and he. He spoke about what he called the hidden scorecard which, which is. Is. Is a purpose bigger than tennis, you know, in terms of. For. For athletes having this, the athletes he'd worked with when they had this hidden scorecard that nobody else really knew about or needed to know about. It was re. It really drove them on to achieving so many great things rather than just being locked into, I want to win this tournament, to win this tournament or to improve my ranking or, or. And it's. It's incredibly special that you've, you've got that. And certainly from me, even though we don't know each other, but through Matt, I've certainly been kind of cheering you on through that hidden scorecard as well over the last few months as well. So thank you for sharing, Zach. But in terms of, in terms of taking you back to age 2, which is not that long ago because you're not that old. You know, I did, I did speak to Matt over the last few days and Matt talked to me about how he was walking past the park and you were playing with and he just stopped and was like, what is going on with what this kid was just like cleaning the ball. It's too like time and time and time again and I wish I could remember that. Yeah, well, we all. That's a feeling I wish I could ever have had. But almost the more impressive thing that he said was it's very rare that you see a two year old that has that level of focus, you know, in terms of just being able to, to do that. So take us back to that time. Maybe not back to what you were thinking then because that's asking too much, but take us back to that childhood, you know, tennis becoming this, this amazing sport that's in your life and is, is doing so much for, for your, for your life now as well. Take us Back to what, 2004, I guess it would be.
- [16:52]
B
Yeah, I'll try to remember as much as I can, but I do remember starting off actually in the living room with like pans from the kitchen and my dad would make me like volley against him with like balloons, like really light balloons. And I guess my hand. Eye coordination. I mean, we worked on it a lot in the living room so I guess it got all right. And then he took me out on court when I was age 2, which I don't really remember that. But I always, I knew, I know from what people say, like I've always had a full size racket, which I don't know how I had that because it was like dragging on the ground. I don't know how like I.
- [17:31]
A
Full size racket at 2.
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B
That's what my dad always said. We have to ask Matt on that.
- [17:37]
A
He did say the racket was dragging, actually. He did say okay, yeah.
- [17:42]
B
But as far as I can remember, I never used a smaller size racket. My dad always wanted with me with the full size, just a smaller like grip size. But yeah, yeah. So he started with me and we were just playing mini tennis. A lot of and then that's when Matt, like you said, came into my life and I guess saw me play and asked like, I want to coach Zach, like in front of my dad. And I think my dad was like, like, why Matt? He's only two years old. But Matt was like, I see something here, like something different. And I guess we, I don't remember, but I. Obviously we took him on that. I'm like, okay, let's have Matt be a part of the team. I guess when I'm 2, 3 years old, which is crazy.
- [18:26]
A
And then because again, imagine, I don't know, because I've heard it, but full size racket, never use mini tennis balls, just kind of went through this almost development as if you were almost a pro player at that young age. And then obviously we'll get into the competitions as well, but didn't play a whole load of competitions either. Tell me about that. And I guess, I suppose, tell me about what happened in those development years and then I'll ask a couple more questions because I'd love to kind of also understand what you were thinking at that time, because I think for kids who are so influenced by other people and peer groups and, you know, those type of things, it's very easy to then say, but hold on a minute, they're doing that. Why am I doing this? And that type of thing. So, so give us more of like the, the reality of what your, what your tennis development was from that age of 2 up till 12, 13, 14,
- [19:25]
B
growing up with my age and all through, I guess, Kalamazoo when I was 16, I didn't really play many tournaments at all. I also played baseball growing up, up until I was like 11. And then I had to decide, like, do I choose tennis or baseball? And my dad let me pick. He was like, you could choose baseball or he, he just wants me to be happy. And then I chose tennis because it's an individual sport, a little more fast paced. And I kind of was doing it more as a younger age, and I just fell in love with it. So then when I was like 10 or 11 years old, I never really played many tournaments. I played a couple junior tournaments, like in SoCal, and I was always playing up in my division. And then once I got to, I believe, 11 through 15, I took about like four years off, four and a half years off, almost five years to not play any tournaments. And that was my dad decision. And he obviously asked me and I was like, yeah, I want to do this too. And we thought the reason, or my dad thought the reason was that we don't get like, burnt out at such a young age. And I really think looking back on that has helped me so much that, you know, not playing tournaments like every week and for not really many, you know, just to win a trophy. I feel like the development side was so important, like practicing and just working on the game. We also had a college guy from San Diego live with us for a year and a half once he graduated. And we said, like, you can live with us for free. We'll pay for your food as long as you just practice with Zach and Trevor, my younger brother, and he was like, of course, like, I'll take that. And he was so happy. And that really helped me a lot. So, yeah, there wasn't really many tournaments
- [21:17]
A
at all because this, this challenges my philosophies to become, you know, like. And which I like, I like, I like being challenged. You know, like, I'm telling players that I believe if you don't compete from a younger age, then you don't understand the game almost. It's like you don't. There's no purpose. I find that. I found that players then don't understand what the real purpose is. And then it's hard to then go into practice, have that inspiration and content at. Okay, I need to work on this because when I play the match that gets exposed and. And then I've also had a belief that I think players should have like a 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 win loss ratio because then you get used to winning matches, but your scheduling's not too easy that you're winning all the time and you get challenged and you do the. Do these type of things. So you're. You're kind of blowing all my philosophies out the water here, you know, sitting. Sitting at 60 in the world and, you know, so do you think that would work for everybody or do you think it works specifically for you because you had a certain gift and a certain way that you played or a certain setup? I feel I need a little bit more here to understand it.
- [22:33]
B
I think everyone has their different routes, and I don't think this could work for everyone, to be honest. With the route I took, I think it helped us a lot just to. We also couldn't afford to travel all around the world and go play ITFs and do that route. And so that was the other reason too, why we decided to stay back and just practice and work on the game. Now, obviously, practice is so different. We try to do it like practice matches and try to have like a tournament situation. But obviously it's so different with practice matches and actual matches. But I think with me not doing the college route as well, like, I had time to be home and just work on the game, be surrounded by my family and loved ones. And then once I turned pro when I was 16, then that's when the matches started to slowly creep in with the smaller, like, pro tournaments. But, you know, everyone has different routes and yeah, it's just a little different route.
- [23:38]
A
Are we so bloody good though? Like, like you won Kalamazoo like three years early. Kalamazoo again, for, for somebody listening might not know, but it's the, the USA national event, basically the, the nationals, all the best, best players in, in the whole of the U. S. Play. So like, when you're going in to play Kalamazoo. Because another one of my philosophies is before you go and play a big tournament, play a couple of other tournaments, get some wins under your belt, get some. And. And you kind of said that a little bit about the grass off air that, you know, you' when you're going in to play those events and you've not played a tournament for three, four years, how did you handle the nerves? How did you handle the 30 40s, the 30 alls? The, you know, you're basically doing a Serena Williams, right? Serena Williams is doing it now. Like, how. How were you able to do that at such a young age?
- [24:27]
B
I think, like, the practice, like, plays a big play in it. When I was playing these practice matches, like, we would also put stuff on the line, like if that's for butts up when I was younger or for money or something, or like suicides or sprints. And so, like, I just try to tell myself, like, play like how I do in practice. And so when I played my first Kalamazoo, I was nervous for sure. And it's actually, I actually didn't want to play the tournament. I wanted to play like a smaller future instead. But my dad said, like, it's a good shot to get into U.S. open. And, and I was like, okay, like, maybe I'll do it, maybe I'm not, or I won't. And then the last week, it came down to they gave me a wild card, the USTA that automatically got me into Kalamazoo. And I was like, okay, like, oh, I'll play. Why not? And that's kind of how my career started. And it kind of changed my life. I had to decide too, at that tournament, once I won it, if I go to college and take the prize money or, or go to college and don't take the prize money or take the prize money. So it just, you know, a little
- [25:38]
A
different because you're massively underplaying this. But you won the tournament. You not only just played it, you won it. Then you got a wild card into the U.S. open, age 16.
- [25:48]
B
Yeah. That was crazy. Yeah. Looking back on that, wow, you're, you're
- [25:54]
A
pissing a lot of people off here. How, how easy you're making tennis, tennis seem.
- [25:59]
B
No, it's so hard, the sport.
- [26:02]
A
It is, it is, but you've already done incredibly well and I know there's a lot more to go, but I, I want to just take you back a little bit because I do wanna, I wanna nitpick it on, on things like again, we, we have these, we have these opinions in tennis that if you use big rackets, then you're gonna get injured. If you don't play with soft softballs, this red, orange, green setup, then your technique's gonna, you're gonna have dodgy technique and, and you're going to end up playing with bad grips and then you're going to get bad injuries and then you're not going to be able to learn the game because tennis played on a, on a big court with a bouncy ball too early. You're just surviving and staying in the point. How did your dad and Matt and, and the great people around you. Do you remember that period of how, how did a session look? You know, so like age 4, 5, age 6, age 8? What, what did your sessions look? How technically based were they? How, how much was it about learning the game? You know, where. How were you able to. I always use the analogy developing a tennis player is like a 50, 000 piece jigsaw puzzle. And it's, you know, you have to have obviously clarity of what that picture looks like to then be able to then put all of those pieces together. But it's a, it's a hell of a job. Right? It's a big old job and you know, you take, you're taking some of the rules out in the way that you get did it. So it would be, it'll be great to understand that a bit more. Yeah.
- [27:36]
B
Looking back, obviously it was, I think it's pretty rare having two coaches at 2 years old. So I give my dad and Matt so much credit just for getting me started. And I remember we did a lot of patterns and hitting. It wasn't so much point play, especially at, you know, five years old. Or so pointfully got more when I was older and I remember with Matt we would rally a lot cross court. We would work on the angles and a lot of shots. I feel like you practice later on when you're older once you develop. But we, I think we kind of flipped it around and we did the harder shots and we worked on that early on. I remember like, I think there's a video somewhere. I was like 5 years old hitting angles of like with Matt, back and forth, back and forth. And I was like, I don't know if like 5 year olds really did that. So I know we did a lot of specifics and also with grip and technique just to make sure like it's, you know, smooth for later on in my career.
- [28:43]
A
How would you describe your, your tennis now?
- [28:47]
B
Now I would say my game style, like, you know, solid, aggressive. I try to stay aggressive. I do think I'm far from my peak right now, so I have a lot more to work on. But yeah, like solid baseliner, I would say with, with my serve, My serve definitely has improved a lot in the last two years for, especially for my height. So that's a big thing that's helped with my game.
- [29:12]
A
And was that your game style at 8 and 9 as well? Would you say how much is your game style changed or would you say that already that was, that was being put in place at a very young age?
- [29:23]
B
I would say that's been put in place. Honestly, like I'm trying to think when I was 10 years old, looking back on my game, it was the same. I was, I always stayed close to the baseline and try to take time away when I can. And then as you get older and stronger, you know, you'll start to come in more, do the transition part and just build more off of it. But I would say it's pretty similar. There wasn't much of a big change. I wasn't really hitting high and heavy when I was younger. It was always still just how I
- [29:53]
A
play now and, and I, I love it. And what I love about it is like it's different. Right? You know, we hear, we hear many, many stories that are quite the same. And we, we've got this, this almost kind of cookie cutter way that a lot of tennis is set out nowadays. Whereas to see and, and, and I have to ask you, there's not just one of you, there's two of you, right? There's, you know, you know, Trevor, who I know as, you know, NCAA number one already 420 in the world ATP and was that same system I guess used with him as well?
- [30:31]
B
It was, yeah, the exact same system. We both didn't grow up playing any tournaments, especially from that age gap from like 10 to 15. And he was the, as I got older, who I was practicing with every day with the college people from University of San Diego. But Trevor was my main hitting partner and we were both homeschooled our whole lives so we didn't really have like a lot of friends to go hit with or we were never really in an academy. We had a little clinic when we were younger, when we would go to. But it was more just us two, like practicing every single day with my dad on the court.
- [31:12]
A
And how many years younger is he?
- [31:14]
B
He is three years younger. Yeah.
- [31:18]
A
So surely that advantage Trevor getting to hear older brother.
- [31:23]
B
I think so. For sure. Yeah. And then as we got older, like in our teen years, I would say like the level was always pretty similar. Like it was a. Both good practice for both of us
- [31:35]
A
because that's again what we find in academies or. Oh, I can't hit with someone three years younger than me.
- [31:42]
B
Oh, right.
- [31:43]
A
You know, that's kind of the, the attitude is you're, you're disproving a lot of myths in tennis because it's like I, you can't know. I'm not going to ever be a player if I'm practicing with people three years younger. I need to, I'm playing under 14 tennis now. I need to be playing with 14 year olds. I'm playing under 16. You know, that's very much the attitude. And how's your relationship with Trevor?
- [32:08]
B
Trevor and I are super close. We talk every day. I don't see him as much anymore because he's at smu, but I see him occasionally at some tournaments or I try to go visit him in Texas or he'll come to la. But yeah, we're very close and he's actually playing right now in a tournament. So we talked today and. Yeah.
- [32:28]
A
And how good is he?
- [32:29]
B
I think he's very good. I think he has high potential. For sure. He kind of plays similar to me. But the scary part is which in a good way, he's more, I guess flashy, more aggressive and so when he's on, I feel like later on the road like he could be very dangerous
- [32:47]
A
and, and mentally you're similar, you have similar outlooks, similar, similar levelness on court or is, is he younger brothers sometimes are a bit more. Have a bit more going on.
- [32:58]
B
You got it? Yeah, I think he has a little bit More going on. But it's. I will say it's tough matching with me because when I'm on the court, I stay very calm. It was actually like the first time ever at Roland Garros this year. I was actually showing some emotion with, like, fist bumps and stuff. Normally, nobody could tell if I'm winning or losing, but with Trevor, he likes to show that emotion, which I love to see it. It's just harder for me to come naturally. But, yeah, he'll definitely show the emotion more, be more angry at times or be more positive. Know, it's kind of funny.
- [33:34]
A
And have you worked on that, Zach? Is that an area that you've worked on over the years, to be like that, or where does that come from?
- [33:41]
B
I've worked on it for sure, especially with my dad. He always said, like, you know, there's always a point right after, you know, if you lose that point. And I always try to stick that in my head, too. Like, try to forget about it as quickly as possible and then just move on. Same when it matches. Like, you lose almost every week in tennis. Unfortunately, you can't win all of them. And I just try to tell myself there's always going to be another tournament, another point, and just try to get back to it. And so I. I keep that a lot in my head.
- [34:16]
A
Your dad was a very, very wise man. He was, for certain. And what happens the first time you and Trevor play each other on the tour? How. How would you guys handle that?
- [34:29]
B
I know that's gonna be weird.
- [34:31]
A
We. We. Would you go at it? Would you go at it?
- [34:34]
B
Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, we'll see if he's playing really well and if I am, too. I don't know who would win right now, but we've been close, for sure. But we haven't played each other yet. But it's gonna happen because there was
- [34:49]
A
always talk when Serena played Venus that one of them let the other one win or, you know, that was. That was the talk. Then at it. You never really felt this, like. But you two would be able to go at it, fight and then shake hands, and it all's done afterwards.
- [35:06]
B
Oh, we'll go at it for sure. Yeah, I'm definitely looking forward to that day.
- [35:11]
A
I will have my eye on. On that. And what about doubles? Are we going to see you guys on the doubles court together as well?
- [35:17]
B
For sure. Yeah. I don't play much doubles right now. Trevor does a lot because he's in college, so he has to. So I will say he's Definitely much, much better at doubles than I am. But yeah, hopefully the opportunity comes around. Hopefully soon this year. And we played a few on the Challenger Tour, but really not much at all. So I'll definitely be playing with him.
- [35:38]
A
I've just got the. I always, My wife edits, edits these podcasts and she always says to me, what should we call this one? What should we call it? What should we call it? And I'm gonna call this one, I think, the myth buster, you know. Okay. And. And another myth that you're kind of busting is average age on ATP. Average age, average height on ATP tour is 6 foot 2, you're 5 foot 9. How have you been able to compete with these guys? What's the, what's the, have you been able to, I guess, reframe that? You know, we, we hear all the time, oh, you can't be a tennis player unless you're a certain height. It's a tall, it's a tall man's sport, all of those things. How are you able to disprove of that? And how have you been able to kind of get one for, for one for the slightly smaller guys?
- [36:29]
B
With me, I think with my movement on court and my ball striking ability, I feel like those two things are really important for my height. And so I've worked on that a lot growing up. And when you're not super tall, you want to try to give back every ball, be the fastest person you can on court. And so that's definitely helped. And I will say the last two years, three years, working my ranking up to where I am now has been the serve, the serve has been a big plus in my game, a big ad where I'm actually getting those free points and those aces. Not all the time, but it just sets me up for a good plus one shot. And that's definitely helped me a lot the last two years.
- [37:15]
A
And what's next for you? I know you mentioned that you're only getting started. There's lots to still improve or what can we expect to see next over the next 6 12, 18 months from
- [37:25]
B
you next with my game, just keep developing and looking to be more aggressive. Like we were talking about the game, I feel like's becoming way more powerful and aggressive. People are coming in more. And so just trusting that and focusing on my transition because there's times where I don't like to get past when people hit it by me when I come in. So I just need to get that out of my head and just trust
- [37:49]
A
it and go in it feels to me that, and you've mentioned these things, but like the game used to be more tactical. Maybe, you know, you used to have these. I have a bit of a theory or I have an academy in Spain and I've been in Spain for 16 years and I've seen it for quite a long time that almost that traditional Spanish way of playing, which is very tactical, you know, very patterned around the forehand, around getting the forehand high up to the backhand, the serve not being overly dominant, almost a bit of a shots, a bit of a point starter. Whereas it feels to me tennis more and more is just about movement and ball strike. You know, people are, people are pulling the trigger from all sorts of places on the court now. And it almost feels like you can't not be aggressive in men's tennis nowadays.
- [38:40]
B
I totally agree with that. And I've learned a lot on tour these last couple years, especially playing the top five guys ranking. Like when I played Janik and Novak and even Fritz at the time when he was top five, I could see a difference playing those guys compared to a top 20 guy, which, that really isn't far off. But I've noticed like when I'm, if I hit a shorter ball or even a mid court, like rally ball, those top three, four guys will take it to you and really get you on the run and they'll come in compared to. And they'll do that all the time compared to obviously someone insanely good top 20, but they could like sometimes rally it back and it lets you get away with it and restart the point. And so that's one thing I've learned a lot and that I'm still trying to work on. Like any opportunity that I get, I need to take it to the opponent.
- [39:39]
A
Very good. That was one of my questions. I was going to ask who was your toughest ever opponent?
- [39:43]
B
I would probably have to say Novak. Yeah, that was, that was a tough match. That was close. I got the first set, but yeah, he upped his level and I got a little nervous and. That was a great match though.
- [39:56]
A
Yeah, I won the first at 7 6, I believe. And yeah, had the crowd going crazy. Is that part of Novak's thing that he, he almost, he almost like, not that he allows it, but just those. It's amazing how when he, when people win those sets against him, how quickly he seems to get ahead in the next set.
- [40:16]
B
Yeah, I knew, like when I got that first set, I'm like, this is far from over right now. Like, it's great. I Got the first set, but I need to stay locked in as much
- [40:24]
A
as possible and tell us about that experience. I know you talked about the, the emotional aspect of that with, with your dad, you know, and having, having that, which is, which is an incredible experience to have, but the actual experience of your playing Novak Djokovic, whether people like him or they don't like him, he's, he's gonna go down statistically as the greatest ever male tennis player. You know, I, I actually commentated on his match with Fon Seca at French Open, and it felt like I was witnessing two very special things. I was witnessing, I, I, I believe I was witnessing the, the growth and almost a new star was being born. Even though we've heard about Fonseca for many years, it's like it felt like that was a match that will go down as, like that was the day he came out as, like, on the big stage, but it almost also felt like I, this greatness, maybe playing his last match at Roland Garros and, and, and even then, just like seeing him firsthand, how he navigated that match, even though he was physically struggling was just mind blowing. How smart he was, how, how he used time, how he used change of rhythms with, in between points and, and during points and, and the aura that he carries. So how. Talk me through that day. You're playing in your home slam against Novak Djokovic, second round on Ash. You know, I'm sure family, friends, lots of people there. You know, the kind of the talk of your world in a circle world, no one wants to think about anything else but you. And that match that day, almost bigger than a wedding day. Right? You know, to talk us, talk us through how that, how that day was and then how you maybe felt at the end of it and how tired you maybe felt after, after going through you such an emotional roller coaster.
- [42:13]
B
Yeah, that was one of the most special days of my life, just playing on Ash and playing against him. And I've always wanted to play him before he retires. I didn't know when he was gonna, when the last match was gonna be. And so when I won my first round in the main draw, I could, I had like, two days off to prep and prepare. And then the night before, I didn't really sleep well. I was pretty nervous. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, I'm playing Novak on Ash tomorrow in front of my home slam. And thankfully I got a couple hours of sleep and I felt good waking up, going to the site. And that was my first Time playing a match on Ash too. And so I did my warmup on the stadium and I got to have a feel of the court. And I remember just thinking about it, like, wow, this is a really big court. I think it's the biggest one we have in tennis. And playing Novak, walking out on court, I was pretty nervous from the beginning. Like, even just seeing him, it's. It's different. You know, I look at Carlos or Yannick in the locker room, I know how good they are. But when I look at Novak, I'm. I just like, almost get the chills in a way. Like, wow. It's like Novak. But I tried to just, you know, trust my game, believe in myself. And I started, I told myself to from the beginning, try to get off to a good start, play my game, don't get too tight and try to be aggressive. And thankfully I played well. I got the first set and I remember, like, in the tie break, I looked up and that's when the stadium was completely full. And I have a video on my phone too. I look back on it, like, a lot of. And just like, wow. Like, I never thought I'd be playing Novak on Ash in front of a full stadium. So that was so special. And the whole match was a good level all around. I got pretty nervous and I started to cramp up a little bit because of the nerves. And then they. It kind of went away. It was kind of like a roller coaster match. But it was a great opportunity and I'm glad I left all of it out there.
- [44:22]
A
Amazing. And then. And how did you feel afterwards?
- [44:25]
B
Afterwards, I was pretty sore for sure. Especially, like, I think with the nerves and the emotions. Like your body takes that on a toll more. And I had a good time to recover and all, but looking back on it, it was just so special and just knowing I could compete and get sets off of you know who I think like the goat. Like, you know, one of the greatest players of all time. It's just like a nice feeling and it gave me, me a lot of confidence moving forward after that tournament.
- [44:54]
A
Was he your favorite player growing up?
- [44:57]
B
He was for sure. Also with Roger and also is Nerd, because I spent some time in Dallas too, and working with him. But yeah, Novak now after the match, like, we've gotten to know each other and he's a really nice guy. Great friend.
- [45:15]
A
Yeah. I mean, and he's had an okay career.
- [45:18]
B
Yeah, not too bad.
- [45:21]
A
Does he get number 25?
- [45:23]
B
You know, I would never hold it against him. I could see it happening like I can't say no. But we'll see.
- [45:31]
A
It has to happen quick. It has to happen soon. But he. Yeah, I actually felt it. French Open. He was potentially ready. He had that. He had that feeling. And people need to watch out at Wimbledon, actually.
- [45:42]
B
Actually, I think for sure, yeah.
- [45:44]
A
Wimbledon's. I think he's won because I think you as long as if you get through some matches a little bit easier than he has done in some of the last Slams. But it feels to me like if you get a fresh Novak Djokovic to the quarterfinals of. Of Wimbledon, I think there's going to be a force behind it. You know, I think it's. It's gonna be you bet you. You better hope you're in the quarterfinals in the other half, you know, because I think Nova Novak at that point and. And before we. We move into our quickfire round, which, Zach, which is our tradition that we do here, Controller controllables you. Your career. I know you're still very early into your career. I think my question is more what do you want to be remembered for at the end of your career? You know, and it's not to wish your career away, but when people look back at Zack Z, this tennis career, what do you want people to say about it?
- [46:47]
B
Just inspire people all around the world and knowing that anything could happen at any given time if you put your heart into it and no matter the circumstances, how hard life gets like off the court, like anything is possible.
- [47:02]
A
Very good. And you've been an absolute star. Are you. Are you ready for our quick fire round?
- [47:08]
B
Let's do it.
- [47:09]
A
And it can be as quick or as slow as you want, but if you want it to be ultra quick, it can be very quick. What does control the controllables mean to you?
- [47:18]
B
To me, control the controllables mean that I was actually talking about it the other day to my friend, like, you have to control what you could control. Only if it's out of your control. Don't let it get to you. And so I always have that in the back of my head as well.
- [47:33]
A
What things are in your control as a tennis player. Player.
- [47:36]
B
My control as a tennis player is how I prep for my match and just how I feel on the court and just let that, you know, I'm playing the ball. I'm not playing anything else.
- [47:50]
A
So, yeah, very good. Roger or Rafa.
- [47:54]
B
I have to go. Roger.
- [47:55]
A
Carlos A Yannick. Say, Carlos, who are the most aesthetically pleasing tennis players in your eyes? And male and women. Male and female tennis.
- [48:09]
B
Right now, I'LL have to say Novak, Roger and Serena.
- [48:16]
A
And who's the funniest player on the tour?
- [48:19]
B
Francis.
- [48:21]
A
Yeah, that's. And should. Should there be a medical timeout or not?
- [48:28]
B
I think so, yeah.
- [48:29]
A
Let chords net chords or not.
- [48:32]
B
I'll say no.
- [48:33]
A
College rules.
- [48:35]
B
No.
- [48:36]
A
So you'd prefer to. If it hits the net, you replay the point.
- [48:40]
B
Yeah. You know, I was thinking about it, but yeah, I'm gonna have to say. Yeah, just keep it how it is for now.
- [48:46]
A
What's. What's one rule change you would have in tennis?
- [48:49]
B
Probably the season being shorter.
- [48:52]
A
Which end? Both ends. Oh,
- [48:58]
B
exactly. Yeah.
- [49:00]
A
It feels right. Doesn't.
- [49:02]
B
Does for sure. Yeah. I think after US Open, we should be able to shut it down until Australia.
- [49:09]
A
And our last question, we always ask, and you've got to think about this because as part of the small print of signing up to come and uncontroll the controllables, you are responsible for this person. Person that you see. And the question is, who should our next guest be on control the controllables?
- [49:28]
B
Next guest. Oh, this is a good one. He's a good friend and we grew up together. I'm have to say. Brandon Nakashima.
- [49:35]
A
I like it. So that means you are now responsible for passing the baton on to Brandon.
- [49:44]
B
Okay, perfect. I will.
- [49:47]
A
Andy Murray said Daniel Medvedev. And he still hasn't, he still hasn't got him on, you know. So, Andy, if you are listening, come on, get your act, get your act together. Zach. You've been a star. I, I love following your career. I know it's still relatively early stages, but very excited for, for what you have to come. I am very grateful you coming on, giving your time, sharing the emotion, the, Sharing the, The story. Right. I think it's a fantastic, fascinating story. I, I love that there's so many ways to skin the cat in tennis, you know, I know. I love that it's not one of these sports where it's just do that, do that, and that's it. It's like the, the entrepreneurial way of tennis is what really attracts me to the sport. And, and a story like yourself and, and obviously your brother as well, who we might have to get on the podcast at some point so he can tell his. We can find out how he's had a bit. Got a bit more motion than you, but big the next few weeks. And thank you again for coming on.
- [50:50]
B
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
- [50:52]
A
Wow. A very powerful episode with Zach and you know how brave he is to have those conversations. You know, The. The hidden scorecard. You know, we talked about it a few weeks ago, Dr. Jim Low, as we celebrated his incredible life. And we had our podcast short, our CTC short, about the hidden scorecard, about something that's bigger than just winning and losing the match. What is that? And when players find that in any sport, athletes find that in any sport, that's when they become really dangerous, when they get that real freedom to be able to go and play the game, you know, and, and play it for something that's bigger than them. And you can just hear it through speaking to Zach, you know, what an incredible dad he had. His dad is absolutely living very close to him, you know, in, in. In the back of his mind. All of those words of wisdom, all of those incredible lessons and all of that love over the years is. Is absolutely coming through loud and clear. And it was really, really special for me to be able to experience that conversation with Zach. And I thank him so much for. For having that conversation with me. I know. I feel very inspired by it. I had goosebumps as he was talking. I'm sure you listening, Will. How interesting, right? You know, the way that he learned to play the game of tennis, the way that he has gone against all of the myths really, of. Of the sport. And, and like I said during the show, during the conversation, challenged a lot of my beliefs, you know, it doesn't mean now I just change my beliefs at all, you know, and as Zach said himself, everyone is different. And that is the beauty of this incredible sport. It. There is many ways to do it. It is very personalized. It's also the challenge because we. We need to try and personalize it for every single person when it's just a bit easier, right, to just chuck everyone in the mix a little bit. And, and, and that's not quite the way that it does work. And obviously there's financial implications, there's time implications of that, but finding the thing that works for that individual, and not only is the one, there's also two in Trevor, who's now coming up and who is one hell of a player as well. And I think it's an incredible story. I didn't get the privilege of father, but what a special man, someone who can be very, very proud of. Of these. Of his sons. And they're. They're taking that legend and that name and that. All of that. That wisdom forward. A shout out to Matt Hanlon as well. We mentioned Matt. You would have heard us talking about Matt. Matt's a good friend of mine. Someone who go back years. Me and my, my wife Vicki have known Matt for many, many, many years and, you know, good tennis person and someone who's doing really good things in Dallas now. Someone who I've got lots of tennis stories with and I know Matt played a major role with the family over many years. I know he's the godfather to Trevor and he. We've had lots of conversations of the port on the boys over, over the years and well done to Matt alongside Mrs. Rider as well on, on the decisions they make and, and made to be able to develop the boys the way that they have. Yeah. Wishing him all the very best on behalf of us as well. Brandon Nakashima sounds good, doesn't he? You know, that sounds like a great guest. So we'll certainly be speaking to Zach to get that one up and running as well. I do have a few more guests, you know, on, on in mind, a few guests that I've been, I've been speaking to. And it won't be long before we're bringing the, the Wimbledon episode where we're well and truly in the grass court season now. The sun wasn't shining, but it now is shining. Harry, our producer, is going to be at Wimbledon for the two weeks as well. So we're going to try and bring Controller Controllables alive throughout Wimbledon and wishing you all the very best wherever you are in the world. But until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Controller Controllables.