Conversations with Tyler: 2023 Retrospective (200th Episode)

Host: Tyler Cowen
Producer/Co-host: Jeff Holmes
Date: December 27, 2023

Main Theme

Tyler Cowen and Jeff Holmes look back on the 2023 slate of Conversations with Tyler (CWT), reflecting on standout episodes, listener engagement, underrated interviews, and the evolution of the show itself. This milestone 200th episode also examines Cowen's approach to content, recent projects (notably his AI-augmented book GOAT), and revisits his pop culture picks from 2013 to assess their staying power and relevance.

Episode Structure & Key Segments

1. Celebrating 200 Episodes & Show Growth (01:55–04:00)
2. Bests, Most Listened, & Listener Engagement (04:00–11:48)
3. Underrated Episodes & Standout Moments (11:48–16:11)
4. Reflections on Preparing for Guests (05:23–06:08)
5. On Facing Death: Unexpected and Moving Podcast Moments (13:41–15:18)
6. About ‘GOAT’, the Book & AI Publishing (17:11–24:36)
7. The Future of Learning & Digital Reading (21:32–26:47)
8. Experimenting with AI Narration & Audiobooks (24:14–27:54)
9. GOAT as a Model for Fan-Driven Appreciation (28:07–31:03)
10. Audience Questions (Humanities, LLMs, Intellectual Circles, & More) (32:09–43:31)
11. 2023’s Show Experiments and Format Evolution (41:44–42:22)
12. Extended Pop Culture Reflections: Music, Movies, Literature (44:03–65:22)
13. Emergent Ventures & Geographic Diversity (66:17–66:50)

Detailed Summary & Insights

1. 200 Episodes, Increased Output, and the Origin Story

• CWT crossed its 200th-episode mark with a record 33 original episodes in 2023.
• Early Days: Originally an event series, the podcast grew from sporadic clusters to bi-weekly, and this year approached three per month.
• Aspirations: Tyler muses, “Ideally a podcast should be once every day... but that’s not possible for a number of reasons... there’s something socially optimal about that.” (03:18)

2. Most Popular & Engaging Episodes

• Top Listener Episode: Paul Graham’s interview stood out—“Paul Graham was absolutely the top this year and just broke first day listens, first week listens, overall downloads. A clear favorite.” (04:38) —Jeff.

• Second & Third: Reid Hoffman (AI) and Noam Chomsky. Cowen notes the scarcity of Paul Graham interviews aids in preparation.

• Notable Quote (on Chomsky):

  • “Half of Chomsky was quite good and the other half was beyond terrible, but that’s okay... they wanted to gawk at it... like a horror movie.” (07:15) —Tyler.

• Highest Engagement: Brad DeLong and Seth Godin episodes saw listeners stick through to the end, measured by retention rates.

3. Underrated Episodes and Deep Dives

• Vishy Anand (Chess Grandmaster): Underappreciated, but “maybe our very best episode on human psychology of the whole 200.” (11:37) —Tyler.
• Lazarus Lake (Ultramarathon race director): Both hosts agree it captured something “heartwarming and affirming” about competition and self-improvement. “Clear, number one pick. If you haven’t listened to that one, check it out.” (12:22) —Jeff.
• Glenn Loury’s Episode: Memorable for its affecting discussion on death: “One of the most unexpected, affecting endings of any conversation with Tyler episode.” (13:41) —Jeff.

4. On Facing Death—A Standout Podcast Moment

• Jeff asks Tyler his own “death question,” echoing a powerful moment from the Glenn Loury episode.

  • Tyler: “I think it will come suddenly and I won’t be faced with that much of an issue. But that could be a delusion.” (14:22)
  • Jeff: “I have a fear… that if I know death is coming... moments where I’ll completely lose composure.” (14:30)

  Robin Hanson’s research is invoked: “In people’s final moments, they’re typically very, very weak and just have way less of reactions period… not that much of a question.” (14:58) —Tyler.

5. The ‘GOAT’ Book and AI Publishing

• GOAT: Who’s the Greatest Economist of All Time and Why Does It Matter—an innovative book project published as both text and an AI-interactive resource.

• “I started thinking, well, this should be the first book published in GPT-4… you can access it through GPT-4 or just read it like a regular book or interrogate a GPT-4 based app.” (17:11)

• The book is free online and encourages creative ways of reading/learning—modernizing engagement with “classic texts.”

  • “I honestly think we should accommodate that and give people the option, but also just let them read the book straight through if they want.” (21:32) —Tyler.

• Upgrades/Downgrades: John Stuart Mill received the biggest upgrade upon deep research; Hayek, while already highly regarded by Tyler, did not.

• “The main thing I learned [was]… how much smarter [these thinkers] were than I had thought.” (19:16)

6. The Changing Nature of Learning and Reading

• The conversation spans how AI and digital tools are transforming reading habits, student learning, and publishing:

  • “If I can listen to a podcast interview with the author and get 80 or 90% of the insight, why would I read the book?” (22:18) —Jeff.
  • “Most authors are running away from it. I think we should run toward it and embrace it.” (22:18) —Tyler.

7. AI Audiobooks, Synthetic Voices, and the Future

• Plans to generate an audiobook version of GOAT using a synthetic version of Tyler’s voice (sample recording post-episode). Discussion includes tone/inflection nuances and technological limitations.
• “It has to be my book voice. The Tyler Cowen talking about Adam Smith book voice is a special thing.” (24:27)
• Jeff: “We’ve been told… a five minute sample will improve things.” (24:36)
• Tyler: “Should it be more pompous [than my podcast voice]?” (24:47)

8. Podcasting, AI, and ‘Fan-Driven’ Appreciation

• Tyler credits Bill Simmons (sports writer/podcaster) as an inspiration for the GOAT methodology—writing about economics, or any field, from a “fan’s” lens.
  • “The fundamental innovation is not GOAT per se, but writing from the perspective of a fan...” (28:42)
• The meta-goal of CWT: “Teaching them the art of appreciation is what CWT has been about from the beginning.” (29:59)

9. Listener Questions—Wide-Ranging, Engaging

• Humanities & AI: “I’m bullish on the humanities… more people are reading Shakespeare than ever before… They’re being removed from the academy. That’s probably good for them at current margins.” (32:31) —Tyler
• LLM Impact: LLMs now critical for interview prep, especially for lesser-known guests (Lazarus Lake, e.g.). Tyler often interrogates LLMs for context instead of extensive book research.
• Impact on Browsing: LLMs increase, not decrease, the number of open tabs—“so it’s going to increase the number of open tabs by four or five in equilibrium.” (35:26)
• Protestant Intellectuals: Tyler admits, “I don’t hang out in Protestant intellectual circles… There’s a lot of Protestant theology when I read it. Mainly I’m bored. That’s probably my defect.” (37:19)

10. Experiments in Format & Clusters

• In 2023, CWT experimented with:

  • The GPT Swift episode (guest = an AI-generated Swift persona)
  • The Kenyan trilogy—interviews with less-known Kenyan thinkers
  • Book club format with Jerusalem Demsas

  “I want to experiment more and I’m looking for ideas... ideas are welcome.” (42:22) —Tyler

11. Pop Culture Picks: Revisiting 2013 & Analysis

Music (45:42–47:24; highlights summary)

• Kanye West’s Yeezus—“No longer sure it’s his best, but it’s held up very well...” (45:42)
• My Bloody Valentine’s MBV—“Strong agree. Still a very good album.” (46:06)
• Chance the Rapper’s Acid Rap—“I don’t listen to rap much anymore... doesn’t stick with me…” (46:11)
• Charles Lloyd & Jason Moran, Hagar’s Song—“Had an incredible renaissance…” (47:24)

Film (48:44–59:28; highlights summary)

• Her: “Will go down as one of the great movies of its time... total clear winner.” (48:44)
• All is Lost, Amour, No, Spring Breakers, Room 237—mixed reviews, but several deemed enduring and worth revisiting.
• Documentaries—e.g., The Act of Killing described as “just phenomenal.” (56:45)
• Tom Cruise: Serious contender for “GOAT actor,” partially for the longevity and versatility of his career. (58:51–58:59)

Fiction and Nonfiction

• Fiction: Alumni like Karl Knausgaard, Claire Messud, and Amy Sackville discussed for their ongoing relevance.
• Nonfiction: Standouts include Jeremy Adelman’s Hirschman biography, Mark Lewisohn’s The Beatles: All These Years, and Joe Studwell’s How Asia Works.
  • “…[Studwell’s] book has become seminal and I’m happy I had a role in its spread. So it’s the book a lot of people go to to understand Asia…” (64:26)

On Cognitive Diversity & Sociopathy

• “Sociopaths are underrated, I think is a key point… They can be problematic, but they can be super smart, high achieving... her [Emmy Thomas’s] book is one of the best statements...” (61:01)
• “Are you willing to bite the bullet [on mental disorders as cognitive diversity]? Toss me that bullet. I’ll bite it. I’ll swallow it.” (61:47) —Tyler

12. Emergent Ventures & True Diversity

• Lazarus Lake episode illuminated the difficulty in achieving geographical diversity among winners: “I don’t think I’ve ever gotten an application, much less a winner from Central Tennessee, and I know that’s a kind of failure on my part, but it’s a hard problem to overcome and his success just drove that home to me.” (66:17–66:50)

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “Half of Chomsky was quite good and the other half was beyond terrible, but that’s okay... people... wanted to gawk at it... like a horror movie.” —Tyler (07:15)
• “Maybe our very best episode on human psychology of the whole 200.” —Tyler on Vishy Anand (11:37)
• “I want to ask more people [about facing death]... it’s hard to BS in response... without sounding like an idiot.” —Tyler (13:41)
• "The main thing I learned [was]… how much smarter they [classic economists] were than I had thought." —Tyler (19:16)
• “Teaching them the art of appreciation is what CWT has been about from the beginning.” —Tyler (29:59)
• "They're being removed from the academy. That's probably good for them at current margins. So I'm bullish on the humanities." —Tyler (32:31)
• “[Studwell’s] book has become seminal and I’m happy I had a role in its spread.” —Tyler (64:26)

Conclusion

This retrospective episode is both a celebration of CWT’s continued evolution and an intimate, unguarded look at Tyler Cowen’s philosophy of curiosity, learning, and cultural appreciation. It highlights the podcast’s commitment to depth, diversity, and experimentation—both in content and in how audiences engage with ideas—while offering listeners a roadmap to some of the most memorable, challenging, and underappreciated discussions from the past year.

For new and returning listeners:
Tyler and Jeff’s honest, lively review makes this episode an ideal starting point for exploring the CWT archive. For those interested in intellectual history, AI, culture, or just curious about what makes a great conversation, this retrospective is both a standalone treat and a gateway to more.