Conversations with Tyler

Episode: Dan Wang on What China and America Can Learn from Each Other

Date: December 3, 2025
Host: Tyler Cowen
Guest: Dan Wang, author of China’s Quest to Engineer the Future

Overview

In this episode, Tyler Cowen sits down with Dan Wang, technology analyst and author of China’s Quest to Engineer the Future, for a wide-ranging conversation about US and Chinese infrastructure, economic trajectories, the “nation of engineers” versus “nation of lawyers” paradigms, and the cultural and societal contrasts between the two superpowers. As always with Cowen, the discussion weaves between urban design, economic measurement, local cuisines, and literary aesthetics, offering a multifaceted exploration of what China and America can—sometimes should—learn from one another.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Infrastructure: Suburbs, Rails, and City Quality

• American infrastructure’s strengths and limits

  • Dan: Praises US infrastructure for car owners but finds it lacking in transit options and urban walkability, particularly compared to Asia and Europe.

    “America has excellent infrastructure. If you own a car… But… why don't we live a little bit more nicely like those Europeans as well as the Asians?” (02:44)

  • Tyler calls such issues “relatively minor” and champions US suburbs’ quality of life, arguing their pre-eminence globally.

    “If the idea of your country is to have the best suburbs… America just seems like the big winner.” (05:34)

• On urban vibrancy vs. suburbia:

  • Dan prefers Asian/European city vibrancy to what he sees as “the most boring category of American life” in the suburbs.

    “You love visiting these vibrant cities of Asia, these ancient museum-like cities of Europe… Why don't we have… very few people have cars there, nice twisting roads as well as excellent rail and subway?” (05:08)

  • Tyler retorts that “suburbs are the future,” and not every city needs to mimic Copenhagen or Paris. (06:20)

2. China: Nation of Engineers or 1950s America Redux?

• Dan likens contemporary China to 1950s America: infrastructure megaprojects, state-driven growth, focus on market share over profitability, and technology obsession.

  "I understand China as perhaps an even earlier America… there was just a sense of vibrancy and a can-do attitude… Which has been defining China for the last few decades." (07:49)

  • The Communist Party’s obsession with technological advancement stems from “self-described humiliations” tied to lagging technology in the face of imperial invasions.
  • Contrasts with American emphasis on financial metrics.

• Tyler challenges whether such differences matter more than per capita income, noting US success in postwar manufacturing.

3. AI Infrastructure and Energy Capacity

• Tyler: Suggests the US has proved it can rapidly build out new infrastructure—citing the AI/datacenter boom—even if it isn’t always profit-driven.

  “Hasn't recent experience with AI infrastructure and data centers shown we can rise to the occasion?... We're way ahead of China in that area.” (10:32)

• Dan: Points out a looming constraint: energy. US fails to match China’s scale in building new power generation (solar, nuclear), which could become a bottleneck for AI.

  “China will build about 300 gigawatts of solar and the US is on track to build 30… 33 nuclear power stations under construction in China, zero in the US.” (11:56)

  • Urges broader investments, including subways and public transit, not just “data centers.”

4. Healthcare Systems: US Superiority with Caveats

• Tyler: The US, despite cost and complexity, offers world-class care to more than just the elite, outperforming China by far (especially re: COVID vaccines).

  “What really mattered for saving lives and reopening was vaccines. And that US overperformed. China is miserable at the bottom of the barrel.” (16:10)

• Dan acknowledges US achievements but notes inequality—“bio prosperity for not just the 1%, but let's call it the top half”—and doubts that ever-rising healthcare spending is ideal.

  “What is strange about the US to me is … bio prosperity for all rather than just for the 0.001%?” (17:03)

  • Sees potential for rapid improvement in China’s biotech sector.

5. On Chinese Suburbs, Social Control, and Sprawl

• Tyler asks when China will develop “American-style” suburbs (21:13).
• Dan responds bluntly:

  “How about never?... The Communist Party has organized most people to live in apartment compounds... because it is much more easy to control them.” (19:30)

  • Chinese urban sprawl is fundamentally different; farmland buffers cities due to food self-sufficiency mandates and control.

6. Engineers vs. Lawyers: Myth or Meaningful?

• Tyler is skeptical about whether the “engineers versus lawyers” dichotomy holds up, citing non-engineer leaders in Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore.

  “Why should I think engineers rather than just East Asia… are what matter?” (21:51)

• Dan sees a unique ‘engineering mindset’ in China, especially in the Party’s obsession with control, large-scale social projects (from one-child policy to zero covid), and infrastructure.

  “There is a term from Stalin being an 'engineer of the soul' that Xi Jinping repeated in 2019... I think there is a social element of engineering.” (22:54)

7. Checks, Balances, and Legal Traditions

• Tyler: The West’s legal (and religious) traditions provide true constraints; China has little history of law limiting state power.

  “China doesn’t have that history. Right? So a more lawyerly China—wouldn’t it just be worse and more oppressive?” (26:03)

• Dan: Argues that even marginally more “lawyerly instincts” in China would help—a few checks to temper the Party’s excesses would benefit the population.

  “Call me a classical liberal... There should be a few more lawyerly instincts in China.” (29:03)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the state of US and Chinese cities

  • Dan: “I want the subways to be less loud. I want mass transit to work better. Fine, let's improve the suburbs. And I think that what I would love is for the US to be 20% more engineering…” (24:34)
  • Dan: “China should be more lawyerly. But let's have America be slightly more engineering too.” (24:50)

• China’s historical resistance to democracy:

  • Dan: “If I were running Conversations with Tyler, I would name all of these popes… But… China did not have an independent religious authority... or bloodline aristocracy… because the court has captured the entirety of the intelligentsia through the administration of the exams.” (27:32)

• On elite influence and inequality in the US:

  • Dan: “If you are a wealthy person in Manhattan, you get to live in these skinny high rises that overlook Central Park… But I want the subways to be less loud.” (24:34)

• The Chinese “can-do” spirit:

  • Dan: “Chinese… are a super pragmatic people. You put an incentive in front of them, and they will maximize... They will simply, you know, rather than be aggrieved about the obstacle, they will think about, okay, how do I navigate around this obstacle?” (42:25)

• On ethnicity and geographic identity

  • Dan, on his home province: “I submit that my region of Yunnan is slightly different and slightly more mountainous and more interesting than New Jersey.” (60:18)

• Literary & opera preferences:

  • Dan, on literary tastes: “I much prefer Anna Karenina to War and Peace, I prefer Budenbrooks to Magic Mountain…” (53:03)
  • On opera: “The Marriage of Figaro is the most perfect opera. Don Giovanni is the greatest… but Cosi fan tutte is the most underrated.” (76:39)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Infrastructure debate; US vs. China | 00:04–07:11
• Nation of engineers vs. lawyers, China’s development | 07:14–12:47
• AI infrastructure, US and energy constraints | 12:47–14:04
• Healthcare: US vs. China | 14:04–19:12
• Chinese suburbs, social engineering, and food security | 19:13–21:20
• East Asian leadership, engineers vs. lawyers | 21:21–24:00
• Legal traditions; constraints on power in China | 26:03–31:47
• Democratization in East Asia; China’s difference | 30:08–34:13
• China’s manufacturing future, decline in TFP | 37:41–38:47
• Pragmatism, incentives, educational mobility among Chinese | 42:25–46:22
• Geographic/cultural favorites: Beijing vs. Shanghai, Yunnan trip | 46:22–68:42
• Literary and opera favorites | 76:37–84:27
• Final reflections: learning, pivoting, and podcasting in an AI era | 85:19–91:05
• Wrap up and closing thoughts | 91:05–92:23

Additional Highlights

• On marriage markets in Chinese parks: “It's very effective for the parents who feel like they're doing something for the kid... I don't think it produces many great marriages because... young people are not very interested in having their parents set up their spouses.” (74:13)
• James C. Scott, Yunnan, and the idea of Zomia: Dan sees his home region, Yunnan, as embodying the art of escaping state control, drawing on Scott’s The Art of Not Being Governed. (58:41–60:16)
• Music and writing style: Dan shares personal anecdotes about music, army cadets, and his writing process, highlighting how musicality influences his prose. (75:18–82:14)

Tone and Language

Dan is erudite, often wry, quick with historical and personal references, and sometimes self-deprecating. Tyler is incisive, skeptical, and direct, keeping the conversation grounded in practical implications while probing further into cultural and historical depths.

Takeaways

• Both countries have much to learn: the US could use a bit more “engineering” and long-view coordination; China would benefit from a dash of legalism, liberal constraints, and creative freedom.
• Urban and infrastructural challenges reveal deeper cultural paths and priorities. Suburbs aren’t for everyone—but neither is engineered social conformity.
• Economic measurement of success (GDP, TFP) only tells part of the story; social vibrancy, pragmatism, and lived experience matter deeply.
• At the heart, Dan and Tyler model productive disagreement—98.5% agreement, but lively debate about the 1.5%.

Memorable Sign-off:

“Tyler, it's you and me against the rest of the world. But then we'll save our best disagreements for each other.” —Dan Wang (54:23)