Conversations with Tyler
Episode: David Robertson on Conducting, Pierre Boulez, and Musical Interpretation
Date: July 9, 2025
Host: Tyler Cowen
Guest: David Robertson
Episode Overview
In this episode, Tyler Cowen sits down with acclaimed conductor David Robertson for a deep, engaging conversation on musical interpretation, the legacy of Pierre Boulez, the art and craft of conducting, and why it matters how and what we listen to. They traverse topics from Boulez’s emotional world and his approach to music-making, to how a conductor learns to read both people and scores, and broader reflections on the audience, attention, and musical meaning. Along the way, Robertson shares vivid stories from his career, deep musical insights, philosophical musings, and practical advice for listeners, musicians, and fellow conductors.
Key Topics and Insights
Pierre Boulez: Legacy, Precision, and Emotion
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Robertson’s Connection to Boulez
- Though he never formally studied under Boulez, Robertson was shaped by Boulez’s rehearsals and later led the Ensemble Intercontemporain at Boulez’s request (01:33–03:12).
- Their relationship was characterized by mutual respect, with Boulez acting as a “grandfatherly” mentor.
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Myths and Realities of Boulez’s Persona
- Boulez is often seen as “severe and uncompromising,” but Robertson emphasizes his willingness to adapt, listen, and even showcase flexibility in rehearsals (02:24–07:21).
- Quote [03:19, David Robertson]:
“He doesn’t wear his emotion on his sleeve in any way... But there are a lot of his works where I have done things in his presence, which he doesn’t do, and you won’t find it on his recordings. And he said, ‘Oh yes, that’s really very nice. That’s lovely.’”
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On Emotional Content and Surrealism vs. Serialism
- Boulez is more emotionally complex than the “Iceman” label suggests, receptive to interpretive freedom, and not simply a cold serialist (03:12–09:21).
- Robertson recounts a memorable moment where Boulez encouraged even greater expressivity:
Quote [06:57, David Robertson]:
“I really indulged in the slow section. And he said, ‘No, no, no. Davantage du perfair encourplus. No, you can actually do more.’ That was the moment where I realized he has no problem when the emotion is put into his works in an intensely way, but he is not able to do that himself as a performer.”
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The Dynamic Between Composer and Performer
- Composers like Boulez may experience nervousness hearing their works performed, which can make their own interpretations more rigid. Robertson highlights the difference between a composer’s ideal sound and what actually happens in performance (07:27–09:21).
Boulez’s Influences and Musical Context
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Non-Western Influences
- Boulez wove non-Western sounds, such as Gamelan and steel drums, into his music, evidence of his openness to the world (09:21–11:47).
- Quote [10:21, David Robertson]:
“There’s so much in Pierre’s music that is about his paying attention and listening all the time, whether it’s to Scottish bagpipes... I like this idea, and I’m going to sort of bring it into my music.”
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Memorization and Understanding Complex Modern Scores
- Memorizing Boulez’s music is deeply tied to love and meaning—“by heart rather than from memory”—because the music becomes part of you (11:47–14:35).
- Ensemble musicians developed a deep, almost intuitive knowledge of Boulez’s work, akin to how orchestras know Beethoven.
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Complexity of Notation and Time Signatures
- Boulez uses mixed meters and non-standard forms to capture rhythmic vitality, sometimes resisting the “grid” of regular meters (14:35–16:50).
- Quote [16:33, David Robertson]:
“If you tried to sort of push that into a box, it would be like trying to take a beautiful flower and squishing it down into a little sort of glass case.”
Does Boulez Still Sound Contemporary?
- Changing Perspectives on Modernism
- Robertson notes that how “contemporary” Boulez’s music feels depends on the listener's context and experience. The best performers strive to make any piece speak to the audience now, not just as a historical document (16:50–18:26).
- He recounts using mixtapes for young conductors to illustrate how quickly we judge music—context and framing are crucial for audience reception.
Why Listen to Boulez? Advice for Skeptics
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Robertson’s Pitch to Contemporary Music Skeptics
- Engaging with Boulez is an encounter with a unique perspective; not all music needs to be consonant. Comfort with discomfort is an essential element in modern works (20:34–24:16).
- Quote [22:55, David Robertson]:
“Every artist has a unique way of viewing the world, and they express it through music... Part of that experience is the history of what’s come before them and how they deal with that history and what they see around them at the moment.”
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Recommended Entry Point: ‘Mémoriale’
- Robertson suggests starting with the emotionally rich, concise piece “Mémoriale” (24:16–25:54):
“It is an absolute gem. And at five minutes, it won’t take too much out of your time and you won’t feel as though you have spent your time incorrectly.”
- Robertson suggests starting with the emotionally rich, concise piece “Mémoriale” (24:16–25:54):
The Art and Responsibility of Conducting
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How Conductors Inspire and Communicate with Musicians
- Positive reinforcement, recognizing moments of music-making, and reflecting a player’s excellence back to the entire group are key (25:54–27:35).
- Players look at conductors at personal, idiosyncratic times; conductors need to memorize these patterns for best communication.
- Quote [29:05, David Robertson]:
“Almost every player looks up after they finished playing something. I think it’s to just check in to see, am I in the right place?”
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Skills Exclusive to Conductors
- Beyond musicianship, a conductor must be comfortable looking foolish and not taking themselves too seriously (30:20–32:01).
- Leadership means deep, attentive listening—not dictating. Conductors, like managers, channel collective artistry toward unified goals (32:01–33:46).
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Overcoming Instrumental Gaps and Learning from Musicians
- Robertson’s years with Ensemble Intercontemporain taught him about every instrument, blurring the lines between conductor and perpetual student (33:46–36:17).
Achieving Clarity and Unity in Performance
- The Secret to Sonic Clarity
- Boulez’s advice: Have a crystal-clear idea in your head about what you want to hear, and your gestures and decisions will naturally lead the group to that sound (36:17–39:18).
- Quote [37:46, Pierre Boulez (via Robertson)]:
“It’s very simple. You make sure that you have very clearly what you want to hear in your head, and then...you will instinctively do what is necessary to make sure that you hear it.”
The Broader Education of Conductors
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Reading and Curiosity Beyond Music
- Robertson’s reading journey moved from struggles with dyslexia to wide-ranging interests in literature, history, and cognitive science, all of which inform his approach to music (39:18–44:17).
- He insists his students read books like Charles Rosen’s "The Classical Style," Steiner’s "After Babel," and Daniel Kahneman’s "Thinking, Fast and Slow" to foster broader understanding and better musical translation.
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Attention, Technology, and the Long Form
- The rise of smartphones has shifted the landscape for young conductors’ attention and reading habits—Robertson advocates for cultivating focus through books, score study, and self-reflection (44:17–46:04).
Popular Music, Surprise, and Sonorous Randomness
- Embracing Surprise Across Genres
- What excites Robertson in popular music is surprise—whether in Tracy Chapman’s singing, J Dilla’s rhythmic inventions, or a taxi driver’s playlist (46:04–49:16).
- He likens everyday chance music (à la John Cage) and environmental sounds to sources of inspiration.
Audiences, Context, and Musical Experience
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Cultural Differences and Individual Listeners
- Different cultures have distinct concert behaviors, but ultimately each audience member’s experience is individual and personal (49:16–52:16).
- Inclusion and openness create better concerts and deeper connections with music.
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Personal Musical Beginnings
- Robertson’s early exposure came from a household full of music and public education, a reminder of the importance of early musical access (52:16–55:01).
Performance Practice: Stravinsky’s Petrushka
- Choosing the 1911 vs. 1947 Versions
- Robertson prefers Stravinsky’s 1911 "Petrushka" for its color, orchestration, and direct connection to the composer’s intentions (55:01–58:58).
- Boulez advised to "always trust the original," a maxim echoed by Robertson in his programming.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
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On Boulez’s reputation:
“He was somewhat combative as a young man. And I got to know him…We had a grand filial [relationship]. And so, your grandfather looks at you and is very forgiving of all of the things that you do, which are silly.”
— David Robertson (02:24) -
On conducting emotional Boulez:
“That was the moment where I realized he has no problem when the emotion is put into his works in an immensely intense way, but he is not able to do that himself as a performer.”
— David Robertson (06:57) -
On performer/composer divergence:
“There is a kind of a nervousness. And that frequently, I think, for composers translates into ‘if I just do this faster or more energetically.’ And yet sitting and listening…one has a completely different experience of the piece.”
— David Robertson (07:35) -
On musical memorization:
“I prefer by heart rather than from memory because…like any kind of music, it means so much to you that there’s no way you could forget it.”
— David Robertson (13:44) -
On why listen to Boulez:
“Every artist has a unique way of viewing the world, and they express it through music… And what this means is…all of a sudden it feels as the rules which we used to be able to hold onto…are suddenly broken down, and it feels like a free for all. And so what do I do?”
— David Robertson (22:55) -
On the conductor’s role:
“You can only do your job by listening. That’s the only way to do the job.”
— David Robertson (32:08) -
On sonic clarity (channelling Boulez):
“It’s very simple. You make sure that you have very clearly what you want to hear in your head, and then…you will instinctively do what is necessary to make sure that you hear it.”
— Pierre Boulez (via David Robertson) (37:46)
Timestamps for Essential Segments
- 01:33 – Robertson’s background with Pierre Boulez
- 03:19 – Boulez’s emotional capacity and rehearsal stories
- 09:21 – Non-Western musical influences in Boulez’s work
- 11:56 – Memorizing complex modernist scores
- 16:50 – Does Boulez still sound contemporary?
- 20:50 – Advice for skeptics: why listen to Boulez?
- 24:20 – Entry point for Boulez beginners: "Mémoriale"
- 25:54 – How conductors inspire and communicate with orchestra
- 32:08 – Managerial lessons from conducting
- 36:29 – Achieving clarity of sound; Boulez’s secret
- 39:26 – The importance of reading and intellectual curiosity
- 44:29 – Young conductors, technology, and attention
- 46:09 – What Robertson enjoys most in popular music
- 49:20 – Audience differences in different cultures
- 52:23 – Robertson’s origins in classical music
- 55:07 – Why Robertson chooses the 1911 version of "Petrushka"
This summary captures the depth, warmth, and knowledgeable tone that characterized the conversation. Whether you are a musician, a listener, or just curious, David Robertson’s insights provide not just a window into the world of great music, but into artful living itself.