Podcast Summary: Conversations with Tyler

Guest: Diarmaid MacCulloch
Host: Tyler Cowen
Episode Title: Diarmaid MacCulloch on Christianity, Sex, and Unsettling Settled Facts
Air Date: January 21, 2026

Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, Tyler Cowen sits down with eminent historian Diarmaid MacCulloch, author of the newly released Lower Than the Angels: A History of Sex and Christianity. Their expansive conversation traverses Christianity’s entanglement with sexuality, monogamy, gender, institutional change, music, the Reformation, and the enduring work of historians. MacCulloch combines deep historical knowledge with striking nuance, repeatedly challenging “settled facts” about the Western religious tradition.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Monotheism and Monogamy: Origins and Interactions

[00:59–02:48]

• MacCulloch dispels the notion that monotheism and monogamy have always been linked, noting that Judaism tolerated polygyny well into the medieval period and that monogamy preceded Christianity in Greek and Roman societies.
• He posits that Christianity adopted monogamy, partly to be credible to Greeks and Romans:

  "Christianity decided to stick with monogamy... because it wanted to make an impression on Greek and Roman society... otherwise that society will just not listen to you.” (MacCulloch, [01:44])

2. Equality and Gender: The Innovation of Baptism

[03:02–05:07]

• Cowen and MacCulloch discuss baptism as an egalitarian innovation in Christianity, open to both sexes versus male-only circumcision in Judaism.
• Yet, MacCulloch highlights enduring patriarchal structures overriding the early ideal:

  "In so many ways, the history of the last 2000 years is a stealthy march away from that idea in order to impose... male centered [norms]..." (MacCulloch, [04:19])

• By the 19th century, women began reclaiming roles in ministry.

3. Marriage: From Contract to Consent and Procreation

[05:13–12:53]

• Early Christian texts (notably Paul’s letters) surprisingly frame marriage in mutual terms, but history shows marriage as a transaction between families, not partners.
• The 12th-century revolution: marriage becomes centered around spousal consent and procreation, driven by changing views on the Eucharist and clerical celibacy.
• Before then, clerics and monks could remain married but celibate, with stories (like St. Etheldreda) making no sense post-12th century.

4. Celibacy, Laity, and the “Copulating Laity”

[09:04–12:53]

• The Church’s push for exclusive clerical celibacy creates a clearer sexual divide between priests and layfolk:

  "The logic of making all clergy celibate is that the laity are now the only people... practicing sex within marriage... That's something new...” (MacCulloch, [10:24])

• Marriage without sex became a route to annulment (e.g., Henry VIII).

5. Christianity’s Hostility to Homosexuality

[14:24–17:52]

• Hostility arises mainly from a Jewish tradition emphasizing procreation and a strand of austere Greek philosophy; Christianity synthesizes both.
• Paul’s isolated comments on same-sex relations are less about homosexuality per se, more about idolatry and ancient gender dynamics.

6. Critique of Foucault and Revisionist Sexualities

[17:52–20:45]

• MacCulloch finds Michel Foucault’s historiography unreliable and critiques claims that homosexuality was "invented" in the 19th century.
• He notes Catholic backgrounds often colored Foucault and contemporaries’ views:

  “Foucault made absurd assertions about the invention of homosexuality in the 19th century simply because the word was coined in 1869. Well, that's so stupid and so French.” (MacCulloch, [19:54])

7. Cousin Marriage and Western Individualism

[20:45–21:28]

• MacCulloch is skeptical that banning cousin marriage reshaped Western society—the hypothesis is "far too simple."

8. Women, Mysticism, and the Gender Dynamics in Islam and Christianity

[21:28–23:27]

• The Quran’s ambiguous gender language allowed room for female desire, but both Islam and Christianity have been predominantly male-dominated.
• Mysticism historically offered women a “workaround” to male-dominated institutions.

9. Mary’s Role in Christianity and Islam

[23:27–26:45]

• Islam features Mary (“Maryam”) far more prominently than the New Testament, but both faiths have complex, evolving approaches to her.
• Power struggles in early Christianity (disciples vs. Jesus’s family) influenced scriptural presentations of Mary.

10. The Cathedral Explosion of the 12th–13th Centuries

[26:45–32:17]

• The building boom reflected religious, institutional, and economic developments—cathedrals as “factories of prayer” supported not just by clergy but secular nobility seeking intercession for souls in purgatory.
• The parish system ensured pastoral coverage for all.

11. Reformation, Printing, and Clerical Marriage

[34:45–37:36]

• MacCulloch agrees that printing was critical, but sees the shift to clerical marriage as the true social rupture of the Reformation.
• Protestant ministers’ households became the new Christian model, replacing the monk.

12. Meritocracy in Tudor England

[37:36–40:08]

• Figures like Cromwell and Cranmer rose through talent, partly because Henry VII’s weak claim to the throne fostered deep distrust of established aristocracy.

13. Music, Patronage, and English Religious Life

[41:35–45:56]

• The flourishing of English sacred music (Tallis, Byrd) owed much to Queen Elizabeth I’s patronage.
• With Handel and others, international musicians fill gaps as English tradition wavered in the 18th century.

Memorable Music Moment

“To an organist, of course, Johann Sebastian Bach...the chorale Prelude is a wonderful vehicle of Christian sentiment.” (MacCulloch, [43:47])

14. The Fate of Anglicanism and Demographic Decline

[47:37–50:06]

• Anglicanism, while declining in numbers, still holds a unique social function as a national institution—positive interfaith relations and high cathedral attendance persist.

15. Belief, Practice, and the Place of Hell

[51:23–54:36]

• MacCulloch doubts that belief in hell is essential:

  “The thing about hell is...it’s a profoundly unconvincing doctrine. Human beings are very capable of creating hells.” ([51:41])

• He sees value in Christianity as “belonging without believing”—akin to Jewish practice.

16. The Historian’s Task: Unsettling Settled Facts

[54:36–57:31]

• MacCulloch champions the historian’s role in questioning certainties:

  “We look at settled facts and we unsettle them. And that is good for human sanity... We are the profession which keeps the human race sane.” ([56:45])

• He is sanguine about new generations of historians, noting ongoing vitality in the field.

Notable Quotes

• On Early Christianity's Ideals:

  "In so many ways the history of the last 2000 years is a stealthy march away from [equality] in order to impose the normal patterns of the ancient world, which are male centered." —Diarmaid MacCulloch ([04:20])

• On Foucault's Influence:

  "Foucault made absurd assertions about the invention of homosexuality in the 19th century simply because the word was coined in 1869. Well, that's so stupid and so French." —Diarmaid MacCulloch ([19:54])

• On Religious Practice vs. Belief:

  "It's been called belonging without believing. And that may be a form of Christianity which does not depend on orthodoxy, but like so much Judaism, depends on orthopraxy." —Diarmaid MacCulloch ([54:15])

• On the Work of Historians:

  "We look at settled facts and we unsettle them. That is good for human sanity." —Diarmaid MacCulloch ([56:45])

Important Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Topic | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------|------------------------------------------------------------|----------------| | Monotheism vs. Monogamy | Origins, Greek/Roman influence | 00:59–02:48 | | Baptism and Gender | Christianity’s egalitarian innovation | 03:02–05:07 | | Marriage, Spousal Consent | 12th-century shift, procreation | 05:13–12:53 | | Clerical Celibacy and Changing Laity | Eucharist, “copulating laity” | 09:04–12:53 | | Christianity and Homosexuality | Jewish and Greek influences | 14:24–17:52 | | Critique of Foucault | On sexuality historiography | 17:52–20:45 | | Sacred Structures and Prayer “Factories” | Cathedrals, institutional changes | 26:45–32:17 | | Reformation and Clerical Marriage | Paradigm shift in Christian family model | 34:45–37:36 | | Music, Elizabethan Patronage | Byrd, Tallis, and English Renaissance music | 41:35–45:56 | | Decline and Role of Anglicanism | Changing demographics and missions | 47:37–51:23 | | Hell and Secularization | Belief, practice, and the role of fear in doctrine | 51:23–54:36 | | The Work of Historians | On unsettling settled facts | 54:36–57:31 |

Final Reflections & What’s Next

Future Plans:
MacCulloch, now 74, considers his new book “the widest topic I’ve covered and it may be the most important,” and intends to continue exploring parish churches across England—each a story of its own.

“Each of them is like meeting a new person and teasing out a new story.” ([58:36])

For listeners interested in religion, history, and the forces that underlie social transformation, this episode is both a masterclass in historical analysis and a lesson in questioning easy answers.