Podcast Summary: Conversations with Tyler — Donald S. Lopez Jr. on Buddhism

Date: November 12, 2025
Host: Tyler Cowen (A)
Guest: Donald S. Lopez, Jr. (B), Professor at University of Michigan, noted scholar of Buddhism

Overview

This wide-ranging episode explores some of the deepest concepts and historical developments within Buddhism. Tyler Cowen engages Donald S. Lopez, Jr. — one of the West’s leading experts on Buddhism — in a probing discussion about Buddhist theology, history, myth, and the contemporary status and perception of the tradition. The conversation covers everything from the omniscience of the Buddha to Buddhist cosmology, the relationship between Buddhism and violence, the creation of the Western image of Buddhism, and the challenges facing Buddhist institutions in the modern era. Lopez also provides practical advice for those wishing to learn about or experience Buddhism.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Buddhist Theology: The Buddha’s Knowledge and Nature

• Omniscience and Time:
  • The Buddha is regarded within Buddhist theology as omniscient, knowing all of the past, present, and future (01:56).
  • Buddha knows about future Buddhas, like Maitreya, who will come in about 6 billion years per Buddhist cosmology (02:12).
  • Buddhist calculations of time are measured in kalpas and aeons, with lifespans decreasing and increasing in cycles (02:26).
• Physical Characteristics of the Buddha:
  • The Buddha is said to have 32 special marks, including "a tongue that could lick behind his ears and cover his face entirely, webbed hands and feet, a retractable penis, more teeth than normal humans, legs like an antelope, a chest like a lion" (04:19).

2. Life and Death of the Buddha

• Historical Uncertainty:
  • No consensus on the precise dates of the Buddha’s life—estimates for his death range from 544 BCE (Theravada) to "about 400 BCE, plus or minus 50" (03:25).
• His Death:
  • Traditional accounts relate his death to a meal, possibly resulting in dysentery ("red flows"), but the meaning ascribed is that his death was both foreseen and intentional, aligning with Buddhist narratives about impermanence and relinquishing life force (05:19, 06:13).

3. Buddhist Cosmology, Reincarnation, and Supernatural Beings

• Reincarnation and Karma:
  • No creator god; the universe is governed by karma, where actions (virtuous or not) dictate future happiness or suffering. Rebirth continues until one escapes the cycle by reaching nirvana (09:13).
  • Six possible realms of rebirth: god, demigod, human, animal, ghost, and hell-being (10:20).
• Wrathful Deities and Ghosts:
  • Many supernatural beings in Buddhism (wrathful deities, ghosts/hungry ghosts), seen as part of the rebirth cycle. Feeding hungry ghosts is part of monastic responsibility (11:03, 12:11).

4. Peaceful Image vs. Historical Reality

• Violence and Peace:
  • The association of Buddhism with peace is primarily a 19th-century Western construct. Historically, Buddhists (including monks) have engaged in wars and violence (12:17).

  "We have a lot of evidence of Buddhists going to war, of Buddhist monks serving as chaplains on the battlefield, even the Second World War." (12:17, Lopez)

5. Western Discovery and Construction of Buddhism

• 19th-Century Reframing:
  • Europeans originally classified Buddhists as idolaters, only granting Buddhism the status of “a religion” in the 1800s after exposure to texts and via missionary reports (12:43-14:26).
  • Early Western interpreters, often atheists or anti-Catholic, projected their own rationalist ideals onto Buddhism (13:45).

6. Myth of the Axial Age

• Skepticism About Synchronous Founders:
  • Lopez doubts the "Axial Age" thesis, citing unreliable and vague chronological data for Asian religious figures (16:14).

7. Buddhism & Social Order: Caste System & Succession

• Caste System:
  • Contrary to some Western narratives, Buddha did not completely reject the caste system; evidence shows most early monks/nuns were Brahmin or Kshatriya by birth. However, caste did not bar anyone from ordination or enlightenment (18:19).
• Buddha’s Family:
  • Buddha had one son, Rahula, who became a monk and achieved enlightenment (17:08).

8. Iconography and Ritual

• Art and Posture:
  • The Buddha is usually portrayed in the "earth-touching" (bhumisparsha) posture, signifying the moment of enlightenment under the Bodhi tree (20:11).
• Oral Tradition:
  • Buddhism’s earliest teachings were maintained as an oral tradition before being written down centuries later (22:11).

9. Modern Transformations: Technology, Heresy, and Diversity

• Internet and AI:
  • Buddhist teachings and rituals are now widespread online (e.g., YouTube rituals, remote funerals in Japan). AI is being used to help translate large volumes of Buddhist texts (23:52).
• Diversity and Authority:
  • No central authority (like a pope); local hierarchies once existed (e.g., Dalai Lama, abbots), but increased decentralization has led to debates about what counts as "authentic" Buddhism (24:56, 27:19).

10. Sectarian Differences: Theravada and Mahayana

• Competing Canons:
  • Theravada (South/Southeast Asia) prioritizes the Pali Canon; Mahayana (East Asia, Tibet) accepts a much broader set of scriptures, claiming greater universality (25:29–26:43).
  • Mahayana's inclusiveness is described as "a kind of advertisement" rather than scholarly fact (26:43).

11. Buddhism’s Decline and Survival

• Decline Across Asia:
  • Buddhism’s institutional presence has diminished across former strongholds (India, South Asia, China, Korea, Japan, Java), mostly for political reasons, especially the loss of royal patronage (28:19–30:43).
• Surviving Traditions:
  • Thailand remains prosperous and Buddhist due to having never been colonized and maintaining monarchic support (43:29–44:16).

12. Tibetan Buddhism and the Dalai Lama

• Incarnate Lamas:
  • Unique system of succession via reincarnation; the Dalai Lama's legitimacy comes from Mongol patronage and tradition. Effectiveness and character of Dalai Lamas have varied; the current (14th) is especially effective (31:03–34:52).
• Western Myths:
  • The “Tibetan Book of the Dead” became famous due to Western Theosophists and was partly misrepresented (35:31–39:06).

13. Paths to Buddhist Scholarship and Experience

• Personal Journey:
  • Lopez details his academic and personal path, including language acquisition, time in Indian monasteries, and his experience becoming a leading scholar (47:14–48:29).
• Advice for Learners:
  • Read Buddhist texts in translation (Pali Canon, Lotus Sutra, etc.), get beyond sectarian sources, and interact with monks—many teach on YouTube now (53:15–53:51).
• Travel Recommendations:
  • For a Buddhist pilgrimage: begin in India (birth, enlightenment, teaching, and nirvana sites), with optional visits to Thailand, Borobudur, and Tibet for further richness (45:42–46:48).

14. State of Buddhist Studies and Future Projects

• Academic Field:
  • Buddhist studies in the U.S. is facing challenges (job scarcity, declining religion departments), but dedication remains strong among younger scholars (55:01–55:38).
• Lopez’s Next Projects:
  • Interested in conveying Buddhism through new media (film, radio, drama), working on a book about Buddhism and business (55:48).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Buddha’s Omniscience:

  “The Buddha is omniscient. The Buddha knows all of the past, all of the present, and all of the future. He can read the minds of every being in the universe.”
  — Donald Lopez, 01:56

• About Buddhism and War:

  “We have a lot of evidence of Buddhists going to war, of Buddhist monks serving as chaplains on the battlefield, even the Second World War. So Buddhism as a religion of peace... [but] throughout Buddhist history, all sorts of Buddhist armies, Buddhist wars, and Buddhists killing each other and killing their enemies.”
  — Donald Lopez, 12:17

• On the Western Construction of Buddhism:

  “So basically, until into the 19th century, Europeans were categorizing the religions of the world as just four... and Buddhists were idolaters. ...It’s really in the 19th century... that this kind of Sanskrit craze sweeps Europe. And Buddhist texts become very important primarily to French and British intellectuals... trying to find a religion of reason, which they then demonstrate or portray the Buddhism as being.”
  — Donald Lopez, 12:43

• On Sectarian Authority:

  “There’s no pope. Right. There’s no one to decide [what’s orthodox]. And so this has been the case in Buddhism forever.”
  — Donald Lopez, 24:56

• About the Decline of Institutional Buddhism:

  “Buddhism as a monastic tradition... exists in the world as long as the monks are around. ...The Buddhists predict their own decline and disappearance... we do see Buddhism as a monastic institution... as disappearing.”
  — Donald Lopez, 28:53

• On How He Became a Scholar:

  “If they had not hired this particular scholar at UVA in 1970, I would have maybe done something else. I went to UVA thinking I’d be a Shakespeare scholar, and I ended up a scholar of Buddhism.”
  — Donald Lopez, 49:42

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |-----------|-----------------| | 01:48 | Buddha’s Knowledge & Time | | 04:11 | The 32 Marks of the Buddha | | 05:17 | Buddha’s Cause of Death | | 09:02 | Karma & Cycles of Rebirth | | 12:12 | Buddhism's Association with Peace | | 13:45 | 19th-Century Western Constructions of Buddhism | | 16:14 | Axial Age Thesis Skepticism | | 18:19 | The Buddha and the Caste System | | 20:11 | Buddha in Buddhist Art | | 22:11 | Oral vs. Written Traditions | | 23:52 | Buddhism and Digital Technology | | 24:56 | Authority and Heresy in Buddhism | | 25:29 | Theravada vs. Mahayana Scriptures | | 28:19 | Decline and Disappearance of Buddhism | | 31:03 | Dalai Lama Succession and Legitimacy | | 35:31 | “Tibetan Book of the Dead” and Theosophy | | 43:29 | Thailand’s Prosperity & Colonization | | 45:42 | Buddhist Pilgrimage/Travel Recommendations | | 47:14 | Lopez’s Path to Buddhist Scholarship | | 53:15 | How to Learn About Buddhism | | 55:01 | Future of Buddhist Studies, Upcoming Projects |

Final Thoughts

Tyler Cowen’s conversation with Donald S. Lopez, Jr. is an enlightening deep-dive into the complexities of Buddhist tradition, its evolving global image, and its enduring intellectual mysteries. Lopez’s candor and expertise bring nuance to common perceptions of Buddhism and demonstrate the vibrancy of both Buddhist scholarship and the tradition's ongoing transformations.

Recommended resources:

• Lopez’s books (“Biography of a Myth”, “A Journey Through History”)
• The Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism
• Translations of the Pali Canon, Lotus Sutra, and Heart Sutra

For more, visit conversationswithtyler.com for transcripts and show notes.