Podcast Summary

Podcast: Conversations with Tyler
Episode: Jonny Steinberg on South African Crime and Punishment, the Mandelas' Marriage, and the Post-Apartheid Era
Date: October 28, 2025
Host: Tyler Cowen
Guest: Jonny Steinberg

Overview

In this wide-ranging conversation, Tyler Cowen interviews acclaimed South African writer and thinker Jonny Steinberg. The discussion navigates through South African policing, crime, the evolution of prison gangs, the legacy and complexity of Winnie and Nelson Mandela's marriage, and the post-apartheid state's challenges and prospects. Steinberg draws on extensive fieldwork and his profound knowledge of South African society and recent history to provide nuanced, sometimes sobering, but occasionally hopeful insights.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. South African Policing: Challenges and Legitimacy

[01:08–07:53]

• Operational Reality:

  • Police often avoid high-risk situations, especially in townships, due to fear and lack of crowd control capacity.

    "If it's a Saturday night and there are 10 or 20 people and they’re young, those two cops don’t want to be there." – Jonny Steinberg [01:21]

  • Officers use CompStat-like systems to avoid "hotspots" instead of policing them.

• Consent and Policing:

  • Policing is driven by public consent; police only feel legitimate when called in, such as for domestic violence.

    "Policing happens by consent or it doesn’t happen. They don’t enter crowds because those crowds don’t want them there." – Jonny Steinberg [02:05]

• Erosion of Trust:

  • Police legitimacy has declined sharply in the last 15 years.
  • Political infighting and corruption cripple reforms.

• Police Demographics and Social Tensions:

  • The majority are black police, sparking resentment among unemployed peers who feel bypassed.

    "There’s an anger around black police...they’ve gotten ahead just by chance." – Jonny Steinberg [04:29]

• Corruption and Trustworthiness:

  • Police often demand payment to investigate crimes; corruption is endemic.

    "It’s become fairly common practice...if you’re going to see to a crime…you get paid." – Jonny Steinberg [06:25]

• Police Violence:

  • Police violence is frequent but not generally greater a threat than criminal gangs.

2. Crime, Class, and Urban Geography

[08:48–10:25]

• Spatial Variation:

  • Cape Town’s "safe" areas benefit from private security, while nearby Khayelitsha faces extremely high murder rates.

    "On the other side of the mountain is Khayelitsha...the murder rate there is literally exponentially higher." – Jonny Steinberg [09:11]

• Nature of Crime:

  • Most violent crime occurs among people who know each other; predatory crime against middle-class residents is less common, but property crime is high.

3. Prison Gangs & Incarceration Culture

[10:25–16:36]

• Ritual and Narrative:

  • Prison gangs operate through violence and a sustained oral tradition revolving around mythical figures like Nongoloza.

    "To be initiated into one of South Africa’s prison gangs is to be told a story of a figure who is both mythical and based on a real historical figure..." – Jonny Steinberg [10:32]

• Courts and Rituals:

  • Gangs hold ritualized trials, retelling the Nongoloza story as part of judicial process.

    "There’s a strange combination of fairy tale, procedural process and violence." – Jonny Steinberg [12:12]

• Legacy of Mass Incarceration:

  • High incarceration rates among black working-class, especially during apartheid, shaped this culture.

    "There was a point...where 70, 80% of working class black people...would go into the jails." – Jonny Steinberg [12:47]

• Apartheid’s Racial Classifications in Prisons:

  • Prisons were segregated; colored and black inmates were housed together, whites separately.
  • After apartheid, prisons desegregated; white inmates became rare and had to adapt quickly.

4. Winnie and Nelson Mandela: Marriage, Myth, and Power

[19:31–27:48]

• Nature of the Relationship:

  • Their marriage, as a functional union, was short-lived: only about two years under one roof.

    "They were really only living together under the same roof for two years." – Jonny Steinberg [19:46]

• Psychological Distance:

  • Mandela remained intensely in love with an idealized version of Winnie during incarceration; she became more a figure of his imagination.

    "The person who he’s so deeply in love with is rarely a fiction." – Jonny Steinberg [20:07]

• On Marriage and Human Complexity:

  • The couple’s recorded, bugged prison meetings reveal a familiar, often fraught marriage dynamic.

    "The bickering, the lying, the nasty things...it all seemed very familiar." – Jonny Steinberg [21:17]

• Winnie Mandela's Complex Legacy:

  • Her exercise of power was both strategic and personal; carried out through her husband as well as independently.
  • Steinberg resists labeling her simply "bad," emphasizing her full human complexity.

    "She did some chilling and scary stuff...But...she was capable of deep sympathy and love and commitment." – Jonny Steinberg [23:55]

• Continuity and Change in Winnie:

  • Early experiences of high familial competition shaped her interpersonal and political intensity.

• Mandela’s Masks:

  • Mandela crafted personas to suit political needs; most profoundly, he projected reconciliation while feeling deep personal loss and rage.

    "Nelson’s genius was to read the times and to present himself as a character he felt the times needed." – Jonny Steinberg [26:10]

5. Post-Apartheid South Africa: Healing, Politics, and Society

[27:48–37:44]

• Healing or Lack Thereof:

  • The violence of the late 1980s left deep wounds that the country hasn't fully healed.

    "South Africa didn’t really heal from the civil war that it fought in the 1980s." – Jonny Steinberg [27:50]

• Changing Perceptions of Mandela and the ANC:

  • Mandela is now out of favor among many young black South Africans, associated with flawed ANC rule.

    "He’s very much out of fashion among young people." – Jonny Steinberg [28:44]

• The Decline of the ANC:

  • The ANC governed well during a commodity boom but internal revolution and corruption after 2007 led to state decay.

• Crime Narratives and White Farmers:

  • No genocide against white farmers; most murder victims remain young, black, and unemployed.

    "The idea that they are victimized, that they’re jealous, that there’s a genocide, is absolutely insane." – Jonny Steinberg [31:15]

• Judiciary’s Fortitude:

  • The judiciary has retained independence but declined in quality due to politically motivated appointments.

• Prospects for Renewal:

  • Despite systemic failures, a stable political center persists, and essential state functions could be rebuilt—though deeper transformation is uncertain.

    "A pretty sane liberal mind is a political center. And it’s guaranteed 25, 30% of the vote every election and is expanding." – Jonny Steinberg [32:57]

6. Economics, HIV, and Social Issues

[36:03–37:44]

• Deindustrialization and Inequality:

  • Agriculture’s potential for success and mining’s mismanagement; education and human capital are the central challenges to greater equality.

• HIV/AIDS Response:

  • An effective public health intervention—millions treated, despite early governmental denialism.

    "Several million people went onto [antiretroviral] treatment. That was a sign of state capacity..." – Jonny Steinberg [35:35]

• Odds of Zimbabwe-style Collapse:

  • Highly unlikely due to entrenched political pluralism; societal resistance would be strong.

    "To try and do in South Africa what was done in Zimbabwe would be very, very hard." – Jonny Steinberg [36:10]

7. Art, Literature, and Everyday Life

[37:44–39:12]

• Artistic Vibrancy:

  • Johannesburg boasts lively music, arts, and theater scenes. Jazz in Soweto and music venues in Braamfontein are recommended.

    "Music, fine art, theater. Yeah, it’s probably more robust than it’s ever been." – Jonny Steinberg [37:52]

• Safety for Visitors:

  • Cautious movement and organized tours allow safe participation in urban culture.

• William Kentridge’s Residency:

  • Kentridge prefers Johannesburg's dynamism, even likening intersections to “small-scale civil wars.”

8. Literature and Intellectual Life

[42:51–43:53]

• Post-Apartheid Fiction:

  • High stakes and a long tradition drive the seriousness of South African literature.

    "It’s in the country’s DNA to produce writers and for writers to be very serious in the world around them." – Jonny Steinberg [43:53]

• Literary Recommendations:

  • Marlene van Niekerk’s A Heart of the Woman/The Way of the Woman highlighted for its psychological and social depth.

9. Jonny Steinberg’s Current & Future Work

[44:26–50:59]

• Upcoming Biography of Cecil Rhodes:

  • Steinberg’s book takes a more intimate approach, probing Rhodes’ sexuality and inner life in relation to his public actions.

• Continuing Focus:

  • Steinberg plans further historical work on southern Africa, though open to being surprised by future interests.

10. Travel and Living in South Africa

[48:10–50:59]

• Travel Recommendations:
  • Cape Town and an east coast drive toward the Transkei for landscapes and social history.
  • Johannesburg recommended for its vibrancy, especially for music lovers.
  • Practical safety advice: stay in central suburbs, move carefully, but "don’t miss anywhere out of fear."

    "I really, really wouldn’t miss anywhere in South Africa because I was afraid of crime." – Jonny Steinberg [49:55]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On South African Policing:

  "Policing happens by consent or it doesn’t happen." – Jonny Steinberg [02:05]

• On Mandela’s Self-Presentation:

  "Nelson’s genius was to read the times and to present himself as a character he felt the times needed." – Jonny Steinberg [26:10]

• On Winnie Mandela:

  "She did some chilling and scary stuff...But...she was capable of deep sympathy and love and commitment." – Jonny Steinberg [23:55]

• On Political Stability:

  "What South Africa has, which is quite remarkable, is it has a very solid political center which is very hard to dislodge." – Jonny Steinberg [32:57]

• On Literary Tradition:

  "It’s in the country’s DNA to produce writers and for writers to be very serious in the world around them." – Jonny Steinberg [43:53]

Suggested Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamps |
|---------------------------------------------------------------|:--------------:|
| South African policing and trust | 01:08–07:53 |
| Urban crime, geography, and property crime | 08:48–10:25 |
| Prison gangs and oral tradition | 10:25–16:36 |
| Apartheid prisons, racial classification, and desegregation | 16:36–19:13 |
| Winnie and Nelson Mandela’s marriage and character | 19:31–27:48 |
| South Africa’s post-apartheid wound and politics | 27:48–32:33 |
| Crime narratives & the reality for white farmers | 30:32–31:43 |
| Economic prospects, HIV/AIDS, and social issues | 35:31–37:44 |
| Johannesburg’s art and culture scene | 37:44–39:12 |
| Fiction and literary life | 42:51–43:53 |
| Steinberg’s ongoing projects | 44:26–50:59 |
| Travel advice for South Africa | 48:10–50:59 |

This episode provides a multifaceted, honest, and reflective exploration of crime, power, history, and culture in South Africa. Steinberg’s humane and methodical perspective offers listeners both critical realism and cautious optimism about the country's future.