Body Language Expert: This Is Why People Don’t Take You Seriously | Vanessa Van Edwards

Summary

Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast: "Body Language Expert: This Is Why People Don’t Take You Seriously" Featuring Vanessa Van Edwards

Release Date: June 5, 2025

In this insightful episode of the Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast, host Craig Groeschel welcomes back Vanessa Van Edwards, a renowned body language expert and the author of bestselling books on communication and charisma. This episode delves deep into the nuances of non-verbal communication, leadership presence, and the journey from feeling awkward to becoming a charismatic leader. Below is a comprehensive summary capturing all the key discussions, insights, and practical takeaways from their engaging conversation.

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1. Vanessa's Personal Journey: From Awkward to Charismatic

Vanessa begins by sharing a pivotal moment early in her career that shaped her understanding of leadership presence. She recounts pitching a TV show in Los Angeles, where despite her strong ideas, she was told she "didn't have the presence to carry a show" (00:00). This feedback highlighted to her that effective leadership transcends ideas alone—it requires the ability to connect and be taken seriously through presence.

Vanessa Van Edwards ([00:00]): "I realized, wow, it's not just about my ideas."

2. Understanding Presence and Making Others Comfortable

Vanessa redefines "presence" not as the ability to impress or entertain but as the skill to make others feel at ease. She emphasizes that true presence is service-oriented, focusing on the comfort and belonging of others rather than self-promotion.

Vanessa Van Edwards ([05:21]): "Presence is about making others feel at ease, and that is a skill. It actually has nothing to do with you."

3. The Power of Communication Techniques: Magic Phrases and Positive Labels

Vanessa introduces five "magic phrases" derived from her research, designed to foster a sense of belonging and appreciation. One standout phrase is, "I was just thinking about you," which serves to both show care and affirm someone's place within a group.

Vanessa Van Edwards ([07:00]): "I was just thinking about you. You belong here."

She also discusses the concept of "signal amplification bias," explaining that humans often require multiple signals of liking to feel genuinely appreciated, rather than relying on a single gesture or comment.

Vanessa Van Edwards ([09:00]): "It can take 10 to 15 signals of liking for someone to feel liked and at ease."

4. Vocal Cues and Confidence in Leadership

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on the importance of vocal delivery in conveying confidence and competence. Vanessa explains that within 200 milliseconds of hearing someone speak, listeners form perceptions of their confidence based on vocal cues such as tone, breath, and inflection.

Vanessa Van Edwards ([20:13]): "Anyone can discover [their resonance point]. You should be speaking, especially in those first 10 seconds, with your resonance point."

She demonstrates the difference between speaking from the top of one's breath versus using a relaxed, lower tone to enhance presence and reduce perceptions of nervousness.

5. Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and Building Confidence

Despite her expertise, Vanessa candidly admits to still experiencing imposter syndrome. She shares her strategy of combating self-doubt through diligent preparation and documenting successes to reinforce her value and competence.

Vanessa Van Edwards ([27:07]): "The only way I can overcome it is hard work."

6. Crafting Memorable Presentations: Awe and Laughter

Vanessa highlights the significance of creating "awe moments" and incorporating humor to make presentations memorable. She recounts an example where a simple moment of laughter from a video clip made her talk more impactful for the audience.

Vanessa Van Edwards ([36:03]): "If you can trigger awe in your presentations, in your conversations, in your story, you become more memorable."

7. The Role of Preparation and Authenticity in Communication

Emphasizing preparation, Vanessa shares her method of studying successful TED Talks to emulate their conversational and relaxed style. She advocates for using frameworks and bullet points over scripts to maintain authenticity and allow for genuine interaction with the audience.

Vanessa Van Edwards ([48:03]): "When you work with communicators, I take away their scripts. I literally rip them up. I'm like, no, not allowed."

8. Emotional Connection and Vulnerability in Leadership

Vanessa discusses two ways to create emotional connections in communication: sharing personal vulnerabilities and telling compelling stories that evoke fear or desire. She believes that emotional engagement is crucial for inspiring action and making ideas stick.

Vanessa Van Edwards ([37:11]): "You can either share a moment of vulnerability or share stories that create an emotion that makes people want to change."

9. Personal Growth and Challenges

Towards the end of the episode, Vanessa opens up about her personal challenge of maintaining friendships while balancing family and work commitments. She stresses the importance of community and connection beyond immediate family and work circles.

Vanessa Van Edwards ([50:30]): "My personal goal for the year was to try to add more connection to my life with friends... I'm really struggling with how to bring connection and community back into my life."

10. Resources and Closing Remarks

Vanessa concludes by sharing resources for listeners to continue their growth in charismatic communication. She promotes her newsletter, books, and upcoming projects, encouraging the audience to engage further with her work.

Vanessa Van Edwards ([52:16]): "I am very passionate about my newsletter. I write one newsletter every Monday... I'm working on my third book, 'Conversation Shocking.'"

Craig wraps up the episode by expressing gratitude for Vanessa's contributions and inviting listeners to participate in a giveaway of her book, further reinforcing the practical value Vanessa brings to the leadership community.

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Key Takeaways

1. Presence is Service-Oriented: Effective leadership presence focuses on making others feel comfortable and valued rather than showcasing personal traits or achievements.

2. Magic Phrases Enhance Connection: Utilizing intentional phrases like "I was just thinking about you" can significantly improve interpersonal relationships and team dynamics.

3. Vocal Delivery Matters: The tone, breath, and inflection used when speaking play a critical role in how confident and competent a leader appears.

4. Overcome Self-Doubt with Preparation: Documenting successes and thorough preparation can help mitigate feelings of imposter syndrome.

5. Engage Emotionally to Inspire Action: Incorporating awe-inspiring moments and humor makes communication more memorable and effective in driving change.

6. Authenticity Over Scripts: Maintaining a natural, conversational style without rigid scripting fosters genuine connections with the audience.

7. Balance Personal and Professional Connections: Leaders should strive to build and maintain relationships beyond their immediate professional circles to enrich their personal lives and leadership effectiveness.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Vanessa Van Edwards ([00:00]): "It's not just about my ideas."
• Vanessa Van Edwards ([05:21]): "Presence is about making others feel at ease, and that is a skill."
• Vanessa Van Edwards ([07:00]): "I was just thinking about you. You belong here."
• Vanessa Van Edwards ([20:13]): "Speak on the out breath."
• Vanessa Van Edwards ([27:07]): "Hard work is the only way I can overcome it."
• Vanessa Van Edwards ([36:03]): "If you can trigger awe in your presentations, you become more memorable."
• Vanessa Van Edwards ([48:03]): "I'm like, no, not allowed [to use scripts]."
• Vanessa Van Edwards ([37:11]): "You can either share a moment of vulnerability or share stories that create an emotion that makes people want to change."

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Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a treasure trove for leaders aiming to enhance their charisma and leadership presence through effective body language and communication strategies. Vanessa Van Edwards provides actionable insights backed by research, personal anecdotes, and practical techniques that listeners can implement immediately to become more confident and impactful leaders.

For those looking to delve deeper into Vanessa's methodologies, she recommends subscribing to her newsletter, reading her books "Captivate" and "Cues," and staying tuned for her upcoming work, "Conversation Shocking."

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Stay tuned to the Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast for more episodes packed with valuable leadership lessons and insights from experts like Vanessa Van Edwards.

Transcript

[A]

I pitched the idea. I never quite recovered. And afterwards they said to me, we just don't feel you have the presence to carry a show. And it was the first time where I realized, wow, it's not just about my ideas. One of the mistakes that leaders use when they sense nervousness is they begin to question. We don't like leaders who question. We want our leaders to tell us. We want our leaders to be confident what they say.

[B]

Vanessa. Hey, welcome back to the Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast.

[A]

Thank you so much for having me back. So happy to be here.

[B]

For those that are watching, I'm actually waving with an open palm, but you're doing two hands because I learned from you the last time you were on. Last time we had you, Vanessa, it was one of my favorite episodes. And also your episode is one of the all time most listened to episode on the podcast. We had well over a million views last time I checked. And so our audience loves you and I'm super thrilled to have you back.

[A]

Oh, my goodness. Well, I have met the most incredible people too. We've had folks who are like, I heard you on Craig's podcast and it was just amazing. I felt like I made friends over the Internet, so.

[B]

You did. You did. I mean, you are so warm and easy to like, and I want to ask you more about that so you can, like, help me be warmer and easier to like.

[A]

You are so easy to like.

[B]

Yeah. But your work is fascinating, and I want to dive into some new stuff that you're learning and maybe and ask you some questions that you don't normally get asked, which is kind of a goal. But I want to start with a little bit of your background just to kind of help those that may not know you yet, love you and learn from you. You say often that you're a recovering awkward person.

[A]

True.

[B]

Which is endearing.

[A]

You know, I think that there's so many folks out there who are not quite introverted, not quite extroverted, a little bit uncomfortable, awkward, maybe overlooked, and that was me. So if you feel like you just never got the memo on people, you are my people.

[B]

So I think a lot of people feel like that. Even those that are confident often feel awkward. Right. And so a little bit of the story behind that, what steps did you take to overcome those feelings of awkwardness and kind of grow in your confidence?

[A]

One thing that I didn't realize is I underestimated the power of conversation and people skills. Meaning I thought if I'm book smart, if I get good grades, if I study really hard. That will be enough. And I actually had a moment in my early career. I had pitched a TV show. I lived in LA back in the day and I pitched a TV show and it got accepted by this big studio. And I don't think I've ever even shared this story publicly, so we'll see how this goes. But I got pitched to major studio, they said yes to my idea and they were like, let's just meet in person with all the execs so they can just get a feel for the idea. Great. So I show up to the studio and I'm very nervous, but I'm like, you know, if I just have a great pitch, I had a great slide deck, you know, and I get into the waiting room and in greets, you know, I get greeted by an executive in a very tailored business suit. And we're walking down what feels like the longest hallway in the history of mankind where I know I'm supposed to make small talk and I have no idea how. And so I'm like, how's the weather? What was the weather like yesterday? Is it going to be good tomorrow? I just had no. And I knew that he was trying to connect with me. And sure enough, I get in the room and the executives are trying to get to know me. So they say, how's the business? And I want to say it's in my slide deck, but they're trying to build this connection with me. And I have no idea how to make small talk, how to be witty, how to be charming, how to be likable and credible. And so that really awkward five minutes infected my idea. So much so that I pitched the idea. I never quite recovered. And afterwards they said to me, we just don't feel you have the presence to carry a show. And it was the first time where I realized, wow, it's not just about my ideas. And I think that that's why I work with so many incredibly smart, talented people, because they have great ideas, they're really successful, but they're. They're not taken seriously. People don't hear their ideas, they can't get buy in. They're maybe in a leadership position, but they don't feel liked. I have a lot of leaders who tell me I'm in a position of leadership, but I don't feel like I know how to make small talk with my colleagues. I don't feel like my team likes me. I feel that people are holding back from me. And so, yes, we can be in a leadership position because we've earned It. But how do we build the likability and the credibility around that? And that's sort of what got me started.

[B]

So let's talk about that, because it's almost comical to imagine someone telling you that you don't, you know, you don't have the presence likeability to do something like that, because now you do all the time. So somewhere along the way, you had to take a step and learn something that made you better. Can you tell me a little bit of that story? Like, literally, how did you start? And along the way, if you want to tell us kind of just what you've learned and your professional journey, I think it'll be helpful for our audience to understand. But more than just saying, I'm a researcher and I'm an expert on this, what I want to hear is like, what did you do next? To go from not being great to being great. There were a hundred steps between that and give me a couple of the early ones. So someone who's like, I relate to the awkward part. What do I do next?

[A]

Okay, so after I got that phone call of, you don't have the presence to carry the show, I was like, what is presence? Literally, that was my very first step. What is presence? What does it mean to have a memorable, magnetic, charismatic presence? And the very first thing I realized is I had been making a mistake. I thought that presence was about impressing people, being funny, telling great stories, being extroverted. That is actually not what presence is. Presence is about making others feel at ease, and that is a skill. It actually has nothing to do with you. And once I got out of my own head and I realized, wait a minute, this is all about serving others. This has nothing to do with my stories, my stats, me being impressive. No, this is how can I make the other person or people feel the most at ease with. With me? So I was like, okay, first step, presence. It's making people feel at ease. How do I do that? And so I started to pay attention to and look in the research for what are literally the phrases that make people feel at ease. And I developed five magic phrases. And I literally had these in a note in my phone. I think I started with, like, 30. And these were phrases that I heard in the research that I heard in conversation. I started to study very charismatic people. I would literally the most charismatic people I know, I would go, and I would be like, how are they talking? What are their emails say? How are they making people just feel so relaxed around them? Because that was so not me. And I noticed they use the same words over and over again. So the first one is, I was just thinking about you. The reason for this is because, as all human beings are always worried that we don't belong. That is the underlying fear of every interaction. Your teammate walks in the room, they worry, do I belong here? Do you want me here? Do you like me here? Your children, when they're anxious or nervous, they're wondering, do I belong in this family? Do I belong in this family culture? And so when these charismatic people, right off the bat, they literally pick up the phone and they'd be like, oh, Steve, I was just thinking about you. You are doing two things. You're telling them, you're in my mind. I care about you enough that you were in my mind. And second, you belong here. I want you here. And so they would do this all the time. And so I started using it too, every single time I authentically thought about someone. And here's the best part is I'm thinking about everyone all the time, right? Like, my 10 most important people are constantly in my head. So it's very natural for me to either text them, call them, or when they pop in my office, or they call me on the phone for me to say, oh, my gosh, Carolyn, I was just thinking about you. I love the project you did yesterday. It was really great. And I was thinking about it last night. I just loved it. That is a gift to her. It is, yes, to me, because it's authentic. I did like the project. I was thinking about it, but we so rarely share it. And so the first phrase is, I was just thinking about you saying it aggressively. Anytime you think of someone especially positive, you're telling them. And second, there's this thing called signal amplification bias. I love science. You'll have to forgive me. This is the second step I discovered on this journey was we tend to think as humans. We are obvious with our signals of liking. But actually, we might think that someone knows that they like us. But oftentimes, humans misread the signals. Miss the signals. Don't know, aren't sure. We think if we say, oh, I like that, or we smile that someone knows they're liked. But it can take 10 to 15 signals of liking for someone to feel liked and at ease. Mm. So the second thing I noticed was, wow, these highly charismatic people, they're not really power posing and, you know, all those impressive things. They do have great body language, but actually, they are broadcasting signals of like, they are 10 in the first 10 minutes, they are sending 10 to 15 signals of, I like you, you belong here. I like you, you belong here. So they're saying, I was just thinking about you. They're saying, you are so. So I noticed that highly charismatic people often tend to use positive labels. And what that does is, it, one, shows clear liking, clear signal, but two, it ignites the priming effect of using good words. Research is very clear on this. If you call someone a winner, you activate a part of their prefrontal cortex that literally begins to behave and think like a winner. And so using a positive label is actually giving someone a gift of embodying that label. And so I would hear them say things like, you're always such a pleasure to work with. You are the spreadsheet king. Thank you for this. Oh, my gosh. My team always preps things for me. Like, even for this interview, I asked my teammate Ray, I was like, can you go grab the transcript from Craig's last interview? I don't want to talk about any of the same things. And would you mind just pulling out bullets for me? And she did an amazing job. And I was like, raya, you are the email queen. Thank you so much for this. Right? And so I think it makes me search for positive things as a boss, as a leader, as a friend, as a parent, but also it then gives them this label that is a gift that helps raise their expectations up. So charismatic people are making people better.

[B]

So in summary, the phrase I use a lot of times in leadership is you want to lead with a youth centered mindset, and that's absolutely what you're doing. So my bias is I think, hey, if I'm gonna meet Vanessa and I want her to like me, I'm gonna tell her about me. I'm gonna try to make a great impression. And the truth of the matter is, if I come in and I think about you, what's important to you, how do I value you? How do I ask you questions that get you talking about what's important to you? The more you focused I am, the more that you will actually like me.

[A]

Yes. And it takes all of the pressure off of my awkwardness because it's all about being of service. Now, I want to make a note here. Introverts and extroverts receive this a little differently. And so I know the people listening to your show are advanced. And so I don't want to oversimplify this, because actually, human behavior is.

[B]

So I'll interrupt you. To all the people in the show, do you see what she just did right there? She just gave you a compliment. She just called you a winner. You are advanced. And studies show that. That the average listener to this podcast is substantially more advanced than the normal population that studies show. I don't know where the study is, but it's out there somewhere. The data has spoken. This audience is advanced. Keep going. Just had to point that out.

[A]

That's it. Right? Like that was exactly it.

[B]

I actually believe that. I mean, I literally believe that we're speaking to people that care about their self development, care about other people. I believe with all my heart.

[A]

Oh, I know. Cause I met so many listeners already.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So. Yes. So I just wanna add nuance because it is important if you're in a leadership position that we understand this. Okay. So as a leader, you show up. You are calling people out with good labels. You are telling people when you're thinking about them, great signals are clear. What you don't want to do is accidentally. Extroverts love this. Extroverts are all about it. They're like, yes, I am interesting. I am fun to be with. They are so happy to hear these terms. Introverts. There's some kind of complement economics where if you're an introvert or ambivert like me, I really want you to compliment me. But also it makes me terribly uncomfortable. You know, like there's sort of like this interesting pull. So as a leader, what you, what you want to make sure of is okay. If you say to an ambivert or introvert, ambivert is like somewhere in between extrovert and introvert. You say things like, I was just thinking about you. I love that project. Or I saw this documentary that made me think of you. Isn't your personal passion about soccer? I just watched this great documentary about David Beckham. Have you seen it with an introvert? You don't want to give them too big of a question right away. Following up. So let's take that example. So I just watched the David Beckham documentary, which was so good. My husband's a huge, huge soccer or football fan, and so I have another friend who's in soccer. And I said, you know, I just was thinking about you. I saw this David Beckham documentary on soccer and you were so good at soccer. Didn't you play in high school? Now he's introverted. And I kind of complimented him by saying he was so good in high school. And so he, he was like, yep. Now I did not just put him at ease. I made a mistake there because I complimented him. But now he's nervous. He feels put on the spot. Okay? So it's my job to make him feel at ease. So then I say, okay, so, oh, you haven't seen the David Beckham documentary. Let me tell you what I loved about this documentary. And I gave him a short story about David Beckham that was about David Beckham, not him. And he was like, really? Because most people don't know these stories about David Beckham. He's like, I did not know that about David Beckham. Ah, now we brought in awe. And this is also on my journey. The other thing that humans love is what's way better than being impressed is being awestruck. I love the word awe. The research I pick. The litmus test I use is, is this gonna make someone go, ah, that is the litmus test I use. So in stories I use the same litmus test. There is a couple fun facts about David Beckham that I knew he would find interesting because he hadn't seen it. And he went, oh, I did not know that about David Beckham. And then off he goes on his own story. And so it's a nuance here of if you have an extrovert, great, they love it. You toss them a question, they will talk. If you have an introvert, watch their face, listen to their tone of voice, look at their body language. If they look fear, if you've just struck fear where the whites of their eyes are showing, they kind of lean back or take a step back or they intake breath. You just accidentally triggered a little bit of nervousness. And now it's your job to make sure that you're taking the ball back. So that's a great story. That's sharing something all worthy, that's sharing something about yourself to give them a minute to then get them back into that feeling about ease. So I just want for my leaders to be kind of prepared for that. What can happen with that approach?

[B]

Super helpful. Now let me pause and talk to the leaders listening right now. I don't care if you're 24 years old and you're leading two people and you're new in leadership. When you lead those two people, they are often nervous around you. And the longer you lead and the higher you rise, the more nervous they are. My pastor, Vanessa, he pastored a church of 400 people. Was not well known, well respected, well loved. Hero to me, was not broadly well known. And I was nervous until the day he went to heaven around him because he was my hero, my mentor. I was always nervous around him. And so I tell Myself, often when I'm around people that work with me or for me, they're often really nervous and uncomfortable, and I don't know why. I don't want them to be. I want to help them help us as leaders. Number one, help every leader listening realize they're nervous around you. You don't have to be. You don't have to have a thousand employees for them to be nervous. You don't have to be famous leader. They're nervous. And then help us as leaders know what do we do to help them feel more comfortable.

[A]

It's such a good point because it's so true. If you are in any kind of leadership position, you might be accidentally making people nervous. And that is a hard truth, by the way. I think that's a bitter pill to swallow as a leader. Like one of the weirdest side effects of having a following, which is also. All I want to do is write books. That's all I want to do. But in order to write books, I have to be on social media. Is just my mere presence makes people nervous, which. Which is so sad for me because I live.

[B]

It is sad. You don't want that, right?

[A]

No. I have people cry sometimes when they meet me and I'm like, what is going on? Okay, so this is happening whether you like it or not. It's a bitter pill of success and leadership. I don't know why, but one thing is, you have to understand is that you are contagious. Your emotions are contagious. Your cues are contagious. I forget if we talked about this last time, but I'll share it quickly because I think it's just such. I think about this study all the time, which is they took people, they brought them into their lab, and they split them up into two different groups. Both groups wore sweat suits, suits that caught their sweat. One group was asked to run on the treadmill and get kind of a sweaty cardio sweat. The other group was asked to skydive for the first time, a nervous sweat. They took sweat samples from both of these suits and they asked unsuspecting participants. I hope they paid them well to smell these different.

[B]

This is absolutely disgusting. Go on.

[A]

Disgusting. It's disgusting. Yes. And they put them in FMRI machines and they scanned their brains as these participants who had no idea what they were smelling. They didn't know if they were smelling sweat or whatever it was in the FMRI machine. And in the FMRI machine, people who smelled the fear sweat, the skydiving sweat caught the fear. Their amygdala began to light up, even though they had no idea what they were smelling. So this shows that even science doesn't quite understand this yet, that we literally smell fear. We literally catch fear. And so what can happen to leaders is they walk into a room, they walk off stage and someone comes in and they're nervous, and all of a sudden the leader is like, why is this person acting so weird around me? And you catch their fear and then you're feeling a little bit uncomfortable and you're feeling.

[B]

Everybody gets awkward. Yep.

[A]

This horrible, awkward cycle. I mean, and I'm sure this has happened to you where you walk into a room and something feels off and you're like, what is going on? So first thing is you need to understand that there's a lot at play even below our consciousness that's happening. But what I want you to understand is you are warm and competent. You have to be very sure of yourself and your position and your mission. Like, I know that we are very mission driven. I think folks listening are very mission driven. You know why you're here. Do not waver from that and infect that. Overcome their fear with your confidence. Confidence is a much more positive emotion. It's an emotion we want to catch. So you just have to know that you are going to be a beacon of warmth, competence, and confidence. That comes from stillness, breath, visible hands, direct eye contact, angling your body towards the person speaking. We love charismatic people who are confidently contagious because we like that stillness, that breath, that broad body. Same thing with our voice. So this is a really big one. So our research has found that someone decides how confident we are within 200 milliseconds of hearing someone speak. So you decided how confident I was if you've not met me before and you're hearing me for the first time when I just said, I'm so happy to be here, and I may. I was very careful with my opening line. I always make sure that my first 10 words, I say them in the lowest natural tone that I have without a question inflection. One of the mistakes that leaders use when they sense nervousness is they begin to question. We don't like leaders who question. We want our leaders to tell us. We want our leaders to be confident what they say. So question inflection sounds like this. I'm so happy to be here. My name is Vanessa. Excited to be back.

[B]

So I'm visualizing. I'm actually hearing people use that tone right now. And it makes me uncomfortable and makes me lose confidence in the person yes.

[A]

Why? Because liars accidentally use the question inflection. So I do a lot of sales trainings and lie detection training on how do we hear and see and smell nervousness and fear. Liars often practice the verbal content, but they don't practice the vocal content. And so they ask their lie, for example, if my daughter, my six year old daughter, if she took a cookie and I say, santa, did you take the cookie? And she goes, no, she's really asking, do you believe me? Liars do the same thing where they'll lie with their voice. And so we know this, that they've even found that when we hear an accidental question inflection, it changes how we listen. We go from listening to scrutinizing. And the biggest mistake that salespeople make or sales leaders make is they ask their numbers. So I know who's going to get the lowest close rate. The biggest pushback is they're on their sales calls and they go, we'd love to have your business. We'd love to work with you. And the cost of that is $5,000.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

If you ask your numbers, if you ask your name, if you ask your important information, you are begging people to negotiate with you. And so as a leader, you need to make sure you're not asking your name, you're not asking your opening line, you're not asking your statements, you're not asking your mission. You are stating. And that is very contagious.

[B]

It's powerful. I want to piggyback off that and talk to you. We keep doing events together, but we're not necessarily like last week. We were at the same event and I followed you. We didn't get to speak because you were in and out. Then I was out, in and out after you. And they went crazy about your talk. I mean, like 10 out of 10, we. This was, I think it was like 150 concrete distributors. And you know, Vanessa speaking to, you know, a bunch of guys that are, that are selling and laying concrete, and they were raving about you. We met four or five years ago at the Global Leadership Summit. Good news is I hear that we're in discussion with maybe having you back in the upcoming years, which would be amazing. And I remember, Vanessa, it's crazy. How do I remember this? The moment you took the stage, I liked you. The moment you took the stage, I was leaning in. And I'm gonna tell our audience a little bit about what you did, because I remember you talking about it. Then what I want you to do is fill in the blanks. I'm gonna ask you something that you don't normally talk about. So you're gonna come in. And you, very confidently, very warmly. You projected warmth, confidence, and competence. You show palms, which means you don't have any weapons. You've said that. I think that's kind of funny. But you're a safe person. You smiled. Your first few words were strong. You projected both volume and confidence, but not overselling it. You told us what you're going to talk about with clarity, and you drew me in. First question is, what am I forgetting? Fill in the blanks. What else should you do?

[A]

So I hinged on this earlier, but what's really important about what you said is my is the lowest end of your natural tone. So not using the question. Inflection is actually one vocal cue. The second vocal cue, and I work really hard on it, is we all have a range. So I'm going to demo for you what that sounds like. So I'm using the lowest end of my natural range. When I'm talking to my kids or my husband, I'm often up here. Hey, babe. Oh, it's so good to see you, honey. I love you. Now, if I gave my entire presentation or if I talked to you like this, it would drive you crazy. Those are both natural tones for me. But there's a range. What we hear when we're listening to people speak is we're listening for vocal relaxation. That's what we're listening for. When my vocal cords are nice and relaxed, I can speak in the lowest end of my range. And they've even found that there's a resonance point. There's a point that everyone's voice has. This is mine. I discovered it. Anyone can discover theirs. I have a free YouTube tutorial on it if you want to go see it. That you should be speaking, especially in those first 10 seconds with your resonance point. It's the lowest natural end of your range, and it signals to someone, I am so relaxed. My vocal cords are so relaxed. I have so much breath that I could take on anything. And we really like people who have that. What happens is people hold their breath before they answer the phone, before they hop on video, before they walk on stage. So it sounds like this. Hey, everyone. Good to see you. Right? Have you heard someone do this?

[B]

100%.

[A]

And that's because they're holding their breath and they're speaking at the top of their breath. So whenever you are about to speak, I want you to take a deep breath in and speak on the out breath. So here's the difference. So this is the bad. Hello. This is me at the top of my breath. Hello. This is me speaking on the out breath. Hello. Both sound like me, but wow, what a different impression. So what I want you to go do is go listen to a recorded zoom call or recorded presentation. When are you giving away your vocal power by speaking up here at the top of your breath, and when are you delivering in your resonance point? Literally, our brain leans in. And so that is what I was working very hard to do in those first few seconds. And when I'm speaking, anytime that I hear myself go a little higher in my range, I take a deep breath and I speak on the outbreath.

[B]

So I could almost hear someone going, okay, that's a little. You know, it doesn't matter that much. It matters so much, it's ridiculous. And I would just say, because I work with communicators, that there would be dozens, maybe hundreds of subtle messages, cues, vibes, tones that we send that all of them together either create trust, confidence, buy in energy, or the absence of them or the wrong combination of them, create distrust, dislike, disbelief. And so what I'd like to. No, let's go back to your process of creating a talk or you're gonna run a meeting or whatever. I'd like to hear about the insecurity in your mind when you're battling through the. Is this any good? Are they gonna like me? I wanna hear. What do you feel when you're at your worst, and how do you talk yourself through that in the development stage?

[A]

I think that my biggest one is a major sense of imposter syndrome around, why me? Like, who am I to go up on Global Leadership Summit and speak to these leaders who should be on the stage, too? Like, that is the.

[B]

So let me ask you this. So now, after all you've done, do you still feel that.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes.

[B]

You've been on the biggest platforms in the country and you still feel that?

[A]

Yeah, because oftentimes, almost always, I'm speaking to audiences with incredible people in the audience, and I'm like, why should I be the one up here and you're the one there? Like, I'm sure I could learn as much from you. And also, who am I to deliver this?

[B]

So if you feel that, then how do you convert that to the confidence that you portray? Is it fake? Is it real? What happens?

[A]

The only way I can overcome it is hard work. So the only way that I can get myself through it and onto stage is the only reason I can even deserve to be on the stage is I'm the only one willing to read a 50 page paper and take notes on it and categorize it and create a library of cues and have 3,000 citations. If I'm working really, really hard, then I feel like, okay, I've earned some time here with thousands of hours of research put into an 18 minute talk, okay, I'm at least putting in the work that they don't. My busy folks don't have time to do. That is the only mental trick that I have, which is also a problem when I'm a perfectionist and I work way too much, which is an issue in my family life, right, Because I'm wanting to get it right. I want it to, I want to practice it to be perfect. I want it. The hard work is the only way I can conquer the imposter syndrome. And that all sets me up for some difficulties as well on the back end, but that's the only way. And so like if you see an 18 minute talk at the GLS summit, what you might not know is that's literally 3,000 academic studies. That's hundreds of hours of me pouring over, cataloging, organizing, testing ideas, testing jokes, finding metaphors, creating the perfect gif. It's hundreds of hours of work that then I feel like I can stand on something on stage.

[B]

So what if I'm a single mom and I'm in a management position and I've got to go do a presentation. I don't have thousands of hours. What do I do to come in and speak to a room of men and women and, and have confidence, historical proof?

[A]

You know, if you have helped one person in the past, then you have reason to help more people or to be delivering that message or to be in front of that team meeting. So I recommend everyone, everyone create a success file. This is probably a folder in your email. It could also be a note in your phone or a folder on your desktop where any time that someone said, wow, that was awesome, or thank you for that help or that really helped me, or that meeting was so great, like I, it was like on agenda and I got it. Those are little clippings that you save in your success file. Because then when you're like, what am I doing here? Or what? I'm so nervous for this meeting or you know, how am I going to do this? You're going to go back to your success file and you're going to be like, because I did that, this person was helped. And that is also proof. And so I think, like, you know, it was easier when I got on GLS stage the second time because I had, you know, all these folks who said, oh, my gosh, that talk helped me so much. And so that also helps after the hard work of, like, I know this helps people, so I have to get up and do it again and do it better.

[B]

So let's say that you got up there and, you know, you didn't do your best. In fact, you know, you missed. And chances are, I mean, I can give you multiple examples of times where I walked away going, yeah, I didn't know that audience or that wasn't the right tone or something like that. Can you tell me about a time where, you know, you missed and how'd you process it and what'd you do about it?

[A]

So last week, the event they were raving about, I did not feel like I did my best.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

So just funny when you brought it up, I was like. Because, like, I literally called my husband afterwards and I was like, I. I just blew it. Like, I did not do. I can do better.

[B]

You should have called me. I would have ease your word.

[A]

It's just like. It's just a funny. It's just a funny thing of human behavior, of like, I am very hard on myself, and if I don't get it perfect, I'm like, it needs to go better. So I actually feel like I could have done a lot better last year. I mean, last week. And I'm so glad that people still got help from it, but I was mad at myself.

[B]

Okay, so let's say you really didn't do great. How would you assess it and what would you do differently?

[A]

I try to have everything recorded so that I can go back and watch. I'm a big fan of reading transcripts of what I've said and trying to hone them and perfect them, as I did with our. Even our podcast last time, I reread the transcript of it. You know, now, recently, I'm using AI a lot. So AI is trained on the warmth and competence model. The. Which is what one of the models I teach. It's trained on personality traits. So now I will often, if I don't think I did well or if I think I could do better, I'll put the transcript into AI and I will say, how could I have made this better? How could I have made it warmer? How could I have made it more competent? And it will give me feedback like a charisma coach. So that's one thing is I use tools to help Me with that. I try to always record and self watch. And then also I think in a presentation, conversation is a little bit different. But in presentation, your first minute, your last minute, and what I call the star moment of your presentation is actually really what matters. And so I think, like, if you feel like you did badly, it's really hard to try to diagnose an entire presentation or entire talk. But if you're like, what could I have done in the first minute? Better?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That hooked them in. Was it a trust issue? Was it a credibility issue?

[B]

It matters so much. Yeah. I tell people, think of the first minute like a YouTube video. When you click on a YouTube video, you're making the decision within seven seconds, do I stay or not? In your first minute, you want to be like that. Last minute matters a lot because it's the last thing. Tell me, what do you mean by the star moment? What is that?

[A]

Okay, okay. So the star moment I accidentally discovered early in my career when I was, like, learning the art of presenting. Which, by the way, in the beginning, I would give talks for free to as many people as I could. Because if someone paid me, I felt guilty if I did bad, but if I was doing it for free, I was trying my best. It was learning. So one thing is give as many talks as you can possibly give to, like, hone that skill. So in that process, I was giving presentations, and this is like maybe 15 years ago. Cause I've been doing this for almost 20 years, and I had given a talk. And a year later, I was at a restaurant and a woman came up to me and she said, oh, you know, I heard your talk at the Rotary Club back last year. I said, oh, that's great. And I always ask this whenever anyone says. I said, what was the thing you remembered the most? I always ask that because it tells you a lot, if you did a good job or not. And so I said, what did you remember the most? She goes, oh. And it took her a minute. So one, she just liked the feeling of the talk, but she couldn't really tell me what it was that anything that she remembered. And I was like, do you remember anything? No worries if not? I'm just curious. I mean, it took her a while. So I was like, ooh, yikes, I'm not giving sticky enough. My ideas are not sticky enough. And then she said, you know, your talk was about babies and their facial expressions and them laughing. I was like, what? And I went back to the presentation, and the entire presentation was on the power of body language. That's what I talked about. One video in that presentation is a video of a baby laughing and then looking afraid when her mom sneezes. And it's the example that even babies show fear and happiness. Micro expressions. It is maybe 20 seconds, this video. And I realized it was such a laugh moment and such a surprise that that's what she remembered. And I went back and I asked a bunch of other audience members, and that was like this star moment that people remembered. And I went, okay, what people remember? As I started to ask more people, what did you remember? What did you remember? And I started to do post surveys, which was very helpful. People remember the moment they laughed or the moment of awe, either one. The reason I love awe so much in conversation and presentations is because it is the thing that it's the stickiest thing. And so if you can trigger awe in your presentations, in your conversations, in your story, you become more memorable. And so in my presentations, and I have a system for presentations where I have different modes. I try to switch modes every 30 seconds. I have, you know, warmth, moment, story or GIF science moment, high competence, graph chart, percent awe moments, story research. That's crazy. Incredible moment of awe. And then I rotate and I go back to the beginning. That way I know that I'm hitting warm, competent, ah. Warm, competent, ah. And if you look at my presentations, I can literally code the slides for you on warmth and competence. So it's not an accident when I go on stage and it does well, it is. And so I would say the same for anyone listening is if you can create a moment of laughter or a moment of awe, even one, your presentation becomes more memorable.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You can create two or three. Wow.

[B]

Yeah. And seems to me that laughter early is good for everybody, not just the audience because it can disarm them, but it's also good for you because if they're laughing, you feel more relaxed. When I work with communicators, Vanessa, I find like almost all of them gonna work on what do I want the audience to know? And. And then if they're smart, what do I want them to do? So you want some kind of application. The piece that a lot of them forget is the feel part. So I always say, when you're giving a talk, you want to say, what do I want them to know? What do I want them to feel? What do I want them to do? Because knowledge doesn't lead to action. Knowledge plus emotion leads to action. And so when I look at your talks, I now with you explaining that to me, I Say, oh, yeah, I see that. I would have said, you also have, and I think this might be your awe moment. I would have called it a vulnerability moment. Almost every time I've heard you talk, you create a moment where I emotionally connect with you. Can you talk to me about what does a good communicator do? Let's say they're smart. Let's say they're clear. What do they do to create that emotional connection?

[A]

Okay, so you have two choices, and I always give this to leaders because a lot of my students are like, I don't want to be vulnerable. Vanessa, that sounds terrible. I get it. I totally get it. So I'm gonna give you two options. The first one is the one you're probably thinking the obvious. One of you sharing a moment of vulnerability. So for me, that could be talking about imposter syndrome. Like, one of my talks, I talk about how I had failed books before my successful books, and I thought that I would never succeed. I was told I would never write books again, and that was a devastating period for me and how to get out of it. That's a vulnerability. But I also think that you can do it with a business challenge that is less personal. So you can still be vulnerable without sharing, like, your family life, for example. You can say, you know, last year, I looked at our numbers, and I was worried. I was worried for a minute. I did not understand why our sales were flanking. I did not. I was worried about the, you know, supply chain issues. I was worried about tariffs, whatever. You can say that you're worried about something in the business and that you had a moment of doubt. Everyone has moments of doubt. That does not make you look like a bad leader, because then what you say is, so I realized I had to do something about that doubt. I had to fix that worry. And so here's what I did. And now we're out of it. So your vulnerability can be business or personal, but it's okay to be business. Like, moments of doubt are actually quite vulnerable. That's option one. Option two is you share stories that create an emotion that makes people want to either. The way that I think about it is, does your story inspire fear or desire?

[B]

Hmm.

[A]

That's the way it should be. So when I tell a story, I either want to. I'm either trying to inspire fear or desire. So, for example, I'm working on a talk now. Maybe it'll be for my next Gls talk, but I discovered this story that I just find so incredible. I'll share it with you. So you can hear, hear the story and then how I'm workshopping it into my talk for this, this reason of, like, how do we trigger emotion? Little known story, JFK visited NASA back in the day, and he was walking the halls of NASA and as the story goes, he saw a janitor mopping the floor and he stopped him and he said, sir, what is your job here at NASA? And the janitor said, well, Mr. President, I'm working to get a man on the moon. And what's amazing about that moment is that NASA culture was so inclusive and so mission driven that every single person in the building, including that janitor, knew that his job was getting a man on the moon. It wasn't sweeping up after astronauts, it wasn't mopping the hallways. And so as a leader, your job is to make sure every person in the building feels included and knows the mission that they're working towards. So every task feels it has value. Now, that story is, I think, a desire story, right? Like every leader wants their people to feel that they have mission. And so your desire got triggered of, how do I do that? And so the next thing I say is, okay, that was a warmth moment, right? That was an emotion moment. So what comes next for me is a competence moment in my framework. So then I say, I have created a leadership sauce. It's a special sauce, it's a magic sauce. It might even be better than Chick Fil A sauce, which often gets a laugh, which is a good time to have it. And in this leadership sauce, I want to teach you how you can gift impact to every single team member. And then I have a quote behind me that says, leadership is not about increasing your impact. It's making sure every team member feels they have impact. That double punch, right? Like, if you think of it like that is like desire. I have the answer. Like, let me tell you exactly how you're going to get that desire. I think every story should be done that way, whether you're on stage or you're on video, or you're writing a book or you're in conversation.

[B]

This is fascinating. So this is also interesting. You said fear and desire. So the way I've always taught it almost the same thing. I've used different words. It's like, when do people change? They only change when they're desperate or when they're inspired. So, like, you're gonna lose weight whenever the doctor says you have to, or bad news, or we inspire you think, hey, what could happen if you were healthier? So I do the same Thing I'm trying to create a desperation or an inspiration to change. And then I want our listeners to hear this because. And not just as a speaker, but as a leader, what you're doing is you're creating this very detailed, very specific, very intentional strategy for communication and anything for inspiring change or casting vision. And so I want you to hear kind of what goes into it. Is, number one, is there a ridiculous amount of work in the preparation part for you? It would be thousands of hours. Not everybody can do that, but they can do their own version of it.

[A]

And also, I can give the cheat sheet. You don't have to go read the studies, because I just gave you the cheat code. The cheat code is fear and desire.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So you don't have to do the work. Just use that. You're set.

[B]

Yes, use that. But I want them to hear everything. And then you've got a rhythm of what you want to do. Tell me again the three things you're going to do. You've got the. Your rhythms. You got awe. You've got.

[A]

Yeah, awe, warmth, competence. Awe, warmth, competence. So awe. Yeah. And those can be delivered in many ways. There's lots of different ways to do those.

[B]

And so for me, and this has changed, but what it used to be is it used to be like point, scripture application, and now I've gone way beyond that in the way I do it. But, like, here's the big thought, here's the scriptural support, here's the application. So that was. And I used to teach, you know, compelling introduction, point, scripture application, point, scripture application, and then compelling conclusion. And now it's way more sophisticated than that. But there's a rhythm to it. I would say you're gonna go all the way down to the color and tone of the outfit you wear is going to vary depending on the emotion you want them to feel. Where you stand on the stage, your body language, like, literally probably how you do your hair, what kind of earrings you wear, or not based on the microphone, the length of the talk, when you create the emotion, how you start with the tone. And I just want them to hear, number one, no matter how good you are, you can get better. And two is there's way more that goes into all of it than you can imagine. And everything we're talking about is small. And everything small together creates something big. And so be both encouraged and be afraid of getting it wrong. Be inspired to get it right. Have the fear of the desperation, the fear and the desire. And then what you do so well is there can be 10,000 people in the room, 100 people in the room, and it feels like you're talking to one person. What's the secret sauce that's better than Chick Fil a that helps you to make a big room feel small?

[A]

This was actually. I learned this technique. Now, I'll tell you the hard way, so I can give you the easy way. But early on, when I was in that process of, like, what is a charismatic person? The best database for charismatic people were TED Talks. This is right around the time where TED Talks were just starting to get big. They were just putting them online, and I was like, wow. Like, here's this amazing thing where I can see literally the most popular TED talks versus the least popular TED talks. I can see TED Talks that went completely viral, that have, you know, 40 million views and TED talks that have 30,000. And so the one thing that I did is I looked at all the most popular TED talks looking for patterns, and we actually coded those patterns, which we talked about last time. But what's more interesting is there was a je ne sais quoi quality to the really, really good TED talks, the really ones that went viral. Ken Robinson is an example. Brene Brown is an example. If you want to go see what I'm talking about, where they walked on stage and they started talking as if they sat down at a coffee table with you. Like, as if they sat down at a coffee shop. What they didn't do is start with sort of this orator, you know, presidential. Today we are talking about the big things. Like, they didn't do that. They came in like, oh, my gosh, you're never gonna believe what just happened to me. And I was shocked by this because it was repetitive. It was repetitive. I was like, oh, my gosh, Jamie Oliver does it. Brene Brown does it. Ken Robinson does it. Simon Sinek does it. It didn't matter what their specialty was. They all were doing that, and the least popular TED talkers weren't. And the way that I would describe that is conversational, where they started almost mid story or mid sentence. And they had a tone that they would still use at a coffee table. So what I did is I would watch the talk and then I would try to deliver it as they delivered it. So I would, like, watch Brene Brown's TED Talk. I would print out her transcript, and I would deliver it with the same tone of voice. She used the same hand gesture, she used the same stage movement. She used to just see how it felt. And all of the best ones Felt very casual, very calm, very confident. And so going all the way back to the beginning of our talk of that calm confidence is internal first. That comes out externally. But we're loving those speakers because we catch their calm confidence. We think they're so. They know this content so well, they're relaxed. So with all the preparation that you're going to do for your talk and your conversations, once you hit the stage or once you get in the conversation, let it all go and just be confident and calm. You did your work, and that is exactly how it feels. While, yes, I am purposeful with my hair and my nails and my earrings and what's behind me and what I'm saying, once I'm on with you, I'm just with you. And I'm like, all the preparation is the foundation of which I stand. That is, I know my mission and then I'm just living in it. So the last piece of the truly excellent, charismatic speakers that I see that have masked those TED talkers is they're so confident that they're able to just talk to you about it. And that's the ultimate.

[B]

Can you comment on this? Agree. Disagree. To me, to do a really special talk, not just powerful, but one that's special, that impacts people, it seems like you have to come in, like, I would say Almost somewhere between 85 and 95% plan, but you need to leave room for authentic interactions in the moment. Do you agree? Would you say my percentages are right?

[A]

Wrong.

[B]

Because I think the best speakers, they are in the moment, they know where they're going. But I find that they're willing to go off script or find a moment that they weren't planning for and live in it for a minute. Kind of just comment on that for me.

[A]

Yes. And I would agree with that basic percentage because I actually don't believe in script. So 100% scripted is not good. Like, I'm almost 100% positive that the best TED talks, they didn't have a script, they had bullets, they had ideas.

[B]

They had direction, they had clarity of purpose, for sure. Yes.

[A]

Yes. And so when I work with communicators, I take away their scripts. I literally rip them up. I'm like, no, not allowed. I don't allow teleprompters. I'm like, no, it takes your charisma away. So, yes, I think that it's all the preparation, it's having those blocks and those bullets. Maybe like your framework of what you're going to do, even your emotional art arc. Right, like starting with a Story and then going up. But do not script yourself because it will sound scripted. It's almost impossible to add vocal charisma. So we have vocal, we have question inflection, we have low tone. But the last element of vocal variety or vocal power is vocal variety is we don't like someone who's delivering in the same tone. So, for example, I'm gonna try to do this for you, and we're gonna see how it works. There is a TED Talk voice that the right TED talkers hit, and you're like, oh, that's it. And it almost organizes the content for you. So, for example, if I'm going to give a TED Talk and I'm going to do a study, I'm going to do it like this. Over 40% of people do not know how to give a TED Talk. When we look at that number, we know the. Okay, so that was a statistic tone, right? Like, that is how they deliver it. And your brain goes, ah, competence statistic. Now let me switch to a story tone. This is vocal variety. So a story tone would be switching to. So back in my childhood, I was known as a recovering awkward person. And so I have a totally different vocal variety than I use for my statistics. So the last piece is allowing yourself to have some natural charisma of how do you actually tell a story? Don't memorize the story. How do you actually tell the story when you're amazed and awed by a statistic? Share the awe. I work with so many students who they over rehearse the awe out of it so they'll tell me something really big, but without any awe at all. And I'm like, no, cue me for how odd you feel. I know you've said it a million times before, but remind me how you felt with it. And so I think bringing those emotions back of how did you originally feel when you experienced that story or read that statistic? And that adds a lot of vocal variety.

[B]

So that's super powerful. Could you're obviously always working on something. Like, you don't become great without intentionality. Is there just kind of. Can you open up just a little bit? Is there something right now you're frustrated about in yourself? Not like even in your research, but you're like, I need to get better here. It could be in leadership, it could be in communication. And I'm working on this specifically.

[A]

Yes. My personal goal for the year was to try to add more connection to my life with friends. I'm very focused on my family, my husband, and then Third is my job. Most of my time is spent momming, and I only work about 15 hours a week. And so most of the time, I'm with my kiddos or my husband, which means friendships go last. But actually, I think it's really important that I have other mom friends that, you know, I have community with that. And it always gets pushed or, like, it's the very end of the day and I'm exhausted, and I, you know, I'm just spent. And so I'm really struggling with where how do I bring connection and community back into my life but not let my job or my kids suffer, my husband suffer, I don't know. So that's something that I'm actively working on.

[B]

Well, I'm glad you're working on that. It's interesting because, you know, when we were kind of in your age range with kids and you've got younger ones now, that's one of the first things to go in so many people's lives, and it's one of the most important things. And so I appreciate you sharing that you're working on that. And I just want to say, Vanessa, you're a great friend, and you're someone that, like, I learn from all the time. I've never listened to anything that you've said or read, anything that you've written that I didn't walk away with. Just a lot of very practical applications that I. There are, like, literally several things that are part of my mindset of leadership and relationships now that came directly from you. If we've got people that are new to the Vanessa Van Edwards train, how do they hop on, and where can they learn more about you and what are you working on that we need to be absorbing?

[A]

Yes. So I am very passionate about my newsletter. I write one newsletter every Monday. It's my favorite piece of content of the week, with one icebreaker that you can use with your family or your team or on a date. So I share one icebreaker every week that's on Monday, and It's free. So. Signspeople.com I love my first two books. I'm working on my third book, but captivate and cues. I read the audible version if you like audio because you're a podcast listener. And I'm working on my third book, so pulling together the next thing that I'm hoping. It's called Conversation Shocking. So I'm going to be working on that for the next year.

[B]

Well, I can't wait to read that. So I want to give away five copies of your book. Cues master the secret language of charismatic communication. And so if you'd like a chance to win one of five copies of Vanessa's book, you can hop over to YouTube and just type in the comment section. Let me think. What do I want them to type? Help me see the cues.

[A]

No, we should say, I am charismatic.

[B]

I am charismatic. That's even better. So there's your little win. So to the. What did we call the audience earlier? They're above average. They're. What'd you call it?

[A]

Advanced.

[B]

Yeah, they're advanced. They are advanced. So to our advanced leadership community, type in the comment section, I am charismatic. And then we'll put you in the drawing to get one of the five copies of that book. Vanessa, thank you for. Thank you for your generosity and your hard work behind the scenes. Just pouring into research and then working hard to make it concise and both creating a little bit of fear in us if we don't want to mess it up. A little bit of desire that we want to get it right. And I'm just super grateful for you. Hope to get you scheduled back at the global Leadership Summit where you'll create good impact again. And congratulations on being a great mom. Great. And developing more friends.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you for having me and letting me share this work.

[B]

All right, let's do it again. Take care, Vanessa.

[A]

Bye.

[B]

And a big thank you to our audience. We're super grateful. If this was helpful to you, and I know it was, you might post and invite others to be a part. You can tag me or tag Vanessa, and our teams may repost you. And guess what? Today you got a little bit better, which is really, really, really good news. I care about you. And when Vanessa said that you're advanced, like, I genuinely believe that. I believe that. That some of the best leaders and most sincere growing leaders are a part of this community. And so I'm going to work really, really hard to bring great people and bring great content to help you get better, because we know that everyone wins when the leader.