← Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast
Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast
Building Hobby Lobby's Legacy—One Leader at a Time | Mart Green
00:56:07
What if the key to building a lasting legacy is choosing the right people? In this episode, Mart Green shares lessons from leading at Hobby Lobby, launching Mardel, and building teams with vision and purpose.
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- [00:00]
Mart Green
Yeah, I say early mistakes that I learned was sometimes I knew that I didn't have the right person, but I kept just hoping it would work out, making that hard decision to sell somebody you knew a different career. So I would say early on, I did not let people go as early as I should have, even though I knew I'd hired wrong because I was learning how to hire. So obviously my skills weren't too good at doing that in the beginning. I learned through the process that actually it's a double negative. One, I'm hiring somebody that I don't need, is not able to do the job, and two, they don't. They're not getting ready to go to their next opportunity.
- [00:33]
Craig Groeschel
Hey, it's great to have you back for another episode of the leadership podcast. And today I have a guest that is going to encourage you, equip you, and inspire you in a massive way. I want to tell you about my very good friend, Mart Green, who is the founder of Bardell Christian and Education supply. With over 40 locations and over 800 employees, Mart is the ministry investment officer of Hobby Lobby, a business started by his family with over 1,000 stores across the United States. He is one of the most successful business leaders, truly, that I know anywhere in the world and one of the biggest forces for good making a difference in the world. Mart has a new book out called Learning to Be Loved. I'll show you the book if you're watching. It's a great book. The Everyday Believer's Guide to a Rich Relationship with God. Outside of all these business and ministry accomplishments, this is one of the most humble men that I know, one of the most generous men alive today, and full of integrity. It's an honor to have you on, Mart. On one hand, I've got five trusted voices that I call when I need good advice, and you are on that hand as one of the five top most trusted voices. And so I'm really excited to introduce you to our leadership community. Welcome aboard.
- [01:56]
Mart Green
Well, thank you, Craig. And you've given me a lot of advice in my life. So I have less than five. I get that from.
- [02:02]
Craig Groeschel
Well, maybe I've given you advice before you ask, and that's one of my weaknesses. But I'm really glad to have you on and I want to hear a lot of your story. But one of the things I like to ask early on because it's interesting to hear from our guest. Was there a time in your life maybe early on, before you had any of the success that you see that you recognize? Oh, wait, A minute. Maybe I have some leadership gifts or the ability to make a difference in people's lives. Do you remember the first time you recognized that?
- [02:34]
Mart Green
Yeah, that'd probably be when I was 19. And the situation was Hobby Lobby did start in our home. I was nine years old when my dad went and borrowed $600. And so, you know, borrow $600, you gotta use child labor and free labor. And so mom was free labor and we were the child labor. So we glued frames for 7 cents each. And this little Hobby Lobby grow slowly one store at a time. And I was actually at college and I called my dad one and I was just talking to. My dad was an entrepreneur, Entrepreneur gifting. He talked about open a barbecue stand and different things. And none of that was interesting to me. But he talked about Christian bookstores. And so I called him back a week later, said, are you really going to do that someday? He says, well, if you'll come home, I'll help you get a loan. So I was going to college. He wasn't help paying for it. So I was going a semester, working a semester. So I'll just go home the next semester. I'll work and I'll try this thing. So when you're 19, you start a new business. You realize everybody's looking to you for all the questions, all the answers. It's not always easy because they're looking for the boss. When I didn't give the answer they wanted, when somebody come in, they didn't get the answer they wanted. Well, I want to meet your boss. And I'm like, well, I'm the top of the list. You know, I am the leader.
- [03:38]
Craig Groeschel
So we've had a lot of meals together, spent a lot of time together. I did not realize you were 19.
- [03:44]
Mart Green
Yeah, yeah. So that's why I say a little bit crazy. So I came home. I have no clue what I was doing. I learned a little bit from my dad, obviously.
- [03:50]
Craig Groeschel
So tell me the story of starting. What did that look like?
- [03:54]
Mart Green
Yeah, first it looked like finding a location. So I drove through Oklahoma City, our hometown here, and I found a location. It was 6,000 square feet at that time. We thought, that's too big for a Christian bookstore. So my dad said, well, put Office Supply in. I hate going to Office Supply. That was before Office Max, Office Depot, all this. And so now I have to learn the Christian industry and now I gotta learn Office Supplies. At 19, you don't know much about either one of those. And so I was thrown into the fire and trucks would back up with all this stuff, I had no clue what a hanging file folder, frame was, all that.
- [04:22]
Craig Groeschel
So I'm curious. You had no experience?
- [04:25]
Mart Green
Well, I had 10 years from. I remember I started nine glue and frame. So give me credit.
- [04:29]
Craig Groeschel
You were an expert. You are a frame gluer, frame gluing skill. So, you know, typically when you start a business, you have to understand a little bit about cash flow. You got recruiting people, creating systems, creating a culture. What were some of the first things that you learned that you didn't know when you were starting out?
- [04:53]
Mart Green
The importance of people, you know, getting the right people. Right. So, and then when you're 19, you're just looking for somebody who comes in the door. And then you get a little more discerning, you know, how do you find the right people? Obviously, it's easier to find people your age. When you're 19, you wind up hiring people not too far from your age. Well, sometimes that works, sometimes it didn't. So then how do I attract somebody with more maturity, more experience than I had?
- [05:13]
Craig Groeschel
And talk to me about that, because we've got a lot of younger people in our community. How do you do it? You know, if you're 19, 20, 21, 22, and you're recruiting someone that's older or leading someone that's older, how do you do that?
- [05:25]
Mart Green
Well, well, in the end, you have to empower them, you know, I think, and stuff like that. So they have to believe that, you know. So you're looking for people, you find out they got skills, they got competency, the things that you're looking for. And you say, hey, come on, let's take a risk together. So you have to convince them why they wanted to work in retail. Maybe they had retail experience in other places, Maybe they had a bad experience, whatever. And so. But I learned early on, if I didn't empower them. It wasn't too hard, though, when you're 19, right, because most everybody has more experience than you do. And so the good news, it was easy for me to empower others because I needed to learn from them. And I did learn a lot from my dad. I don't even want to honor that. I got to work under him. I got to saw him work. He had been in retail all his life. He worked in high school years in retail. So I just learned a lot about people, how to take care of people.
- [06:07]
Craig Groeschel
So early mistakes, all of us, you learn from what you do wrong. What's one or two that stands out to you? And then I want to ask you, what'd you do right. And maybe you didn't even know that was so right. First of all, what did you learn from those early mistakes?
- [06:22]
Mart Green
Yeah, I'd say early mistakes that I learned was sometimes I knew that I didn't have the right person, but I kept just hoping it would work out, making that hard decision to sell somebody you knew a different career. So I would say early on, I did not let people go as early as I should have, even though I knew I'd hired wrong because I was learning how to hire. So obviously my skills weren't too good at doing that in the beginning. And so that would be one early lesson again, that I learned.
- [06:45]
Craig Groeschel
So you agree or disagree? A lot of times when anyone's starting out a business or a ministry is really hard to be 100% perfect on early hires. And if you don't make relatively quick corrections, it can be difficult to overcome. Comment?
- [07:05]
Mart Green
Yeah, absolutely. And so that's where I made my mistake. So, yes, I hired some really good people, thank goodness. But I hired some that weren't. And again, I just think, oh, they'll get better, I'll try. Or again, just the disappointment of having to tell them that they don't have a job because you hired them, you brought them on, so you feel that sense of obligation. But I learned through the process that actually it's a double negative. One, I'm hiring somebody that I don't need is not able to do the job. And two, they don't. They're not getting ready to go to their next opportunity. So I realize, you know, sometimes when people go to their next opportunity actually is a favor both to myself. Right. As well as to them.
- [07:37]
Craig Groeschel
So I want to just slow it down because I want people to hear what you just said, that if you've got someone that's not the right fit, then letting them go is. You said a favor to them as well as yourself. And that's actually really, really true. And like, we're both people of faith. And so we might even say if the person isn't where God would want them to be and we leave them there, then that's really not being fair to them, not being obedient. And so I think I just, I want to highlight that because what I know right now is there's a lot of people that are listening that would have someone and they're tolerating what is maybe underperformance or a bad attitude, bad mindset. And not only does it hurt the organization, but it's going to hurt the other people. That see you tolerating it, and ultimately it actually does hurt the person that you're not being fair to. And so you said it quickly. But I just wanted to highlight it because it took me a while to learn that early on you had to do some things right, maybe intuitively, maybe accidentally. What were some of the things that in the early years of building what's now so many stores, you know, across the country, what did you would. What were the big pieces that you got right that helped create a foundation to build on?
- [08:54]
Mart Green
For me, what I needed really, I think, was learning. I had to go out and really learn a lot. So I didn't know the best selling books. I didn't know a lot of stuff. And that's back before we had computers, so I had microfiche. So I'm getting microfishing, I'm going down the library. Just working really hard to understand the industries I was getting into, which is a Christian industry, and the office supplies, because again, I came in with no information on either one of them. Outside I had a Kirkbride Bible, maybe, you know, Thompson Chain Bible at that time. So I think working hard was part of that. And just being a lifelong learner, I always want to learn. I've always been a lifelong learner. And so I just feel like jumping in and learning about that and, and making some mistakes. And like I say, some of the mistakes I made, I held on too long with employees. Others, I was easier for me to move on. Said, well, that doesn't work. Let's, let's move on from that.
- [09:37]
Craig Groeschel
Talk to me about the learning part. Where do you go? What helps you to continue to grow even years later? To this day, we can't meet. If we met once a week, every week, you'd come in with a new theory, with a new something you're working on. Tell me about what goes into your personal growth strategy.
- [09:57]
Mart Green
Early on for the business, I would go to other Christian bookstores. I'd find out, where are the best Christian bookstores. I just call my reps, hey, you sell books? Who's the best in the country? Okay. I'm flying all over this country just going and looking and learning. And it was huge for me because sometimes your brain is a certain size, but you got. I wanted to go stretch my brain, see something, see the best. And so that's what helped me as far as the Mardell stores.
- [10:20]
Craig Groeschel
And what about today when you are, you know, you're at the top of your game in many fields, and we're gonna talk about Some of the different fields, because you started in retail and you scaled that up and went through different seasons, from starting to, you know, whitewater, through sustaining, recreating, keeping it fresh, and then you branched out from there. But, yeah, I'm just. Just in the meantime now, today, all these years later at the top of many different fields, what does your growth strategy look like to keep sharpening yourself?
- [10:53]
Mart Green
Yeah, again, just tapping into other people, whether it's through their books. A lot of time it's through books because I don't know people and all that stuff. I listen to the Greg Groeschel leadership podcast, and so even through Covid, there's a phenomenal podcast you had right in the middle of. I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, what are we going to do now? I mean, this is. If you want leadership. It was right in the middle of COVID and you had a podcast that came out that spoke very deeply to me. And so it's just listening to others, picking it up. And sometimes you get from younger people, you know, because now the world has changed. I didn't grow up in the digital world, so I'm learning from them.
- [11:20]
Craig Groeschel
So you're. So I'm. You're saying what's true, but it's incomplete because there's so much more to it. When you read a book, tell me your process, because I know it, and it's. It's just. You're just saying you learn from books. There's more to it. Tell me what you do when you read a book.
- [11:33]
Mart Green
All right. When I read a book, I highlight it, and then I go back and I mark my favorite quotes. And then I. My executive assistant takes those. My favorite quotes of a book. So type them up and make five copies of them and put them in a binder. And then when my four kids. I have four children, they're all married now, they got 13 binders of over a thousand books that I've read. And my favorite quotes. Now, I don't humor myself that they've read them, you know, but maybe when I die, someday they'll go back and look and say, oh, there's the years he was involved with this or that. Because you can see. Because a lot of times I do like to learn. I learn easier, probably buy books and learn that way than people, because I'm more of an introvert. But I love to learn from people, too. And so. But they'll see that where I learned a lot in life was reading other books.
- [12:17]
Craig Groeschel
Okay, so here's what I want to highlight about that because you have mart. What I would consider, I could probably list, if I worked on it, probably 15 things that are, like, oddly unique about you, that are brilliant kind of weird. Like literally kind of weird. Right. And I wouldn't want to copy those because I'm not you. And so I don't want to try to bring out of you those weird things and tell our community, like, you all need to go be like Mark. But what I do want to do is I want to highlight them so they can say, what are those weird things that I need to do that help me grow or become better or become sharper? And so let's just look back. What you do. You read a book, you highlight it, you go back through, pick out your favorite, and I've looked at your favorite quotes. And it's not just like four quotes. It's like 20% of the book sometimes. Sometimes it can be 20% of the book. And then you document it. And you said you gave over a thousand basically book summaries or book highlights to your kids, and you have those accessible. And so if I ask you, and I have, before I'm going to take a week off, hey, what do you recommend? I read? And you can then what do you have for me besides recommendations? You've got summaries, and you've also read over a thousand books that you thought were noteworthy. So that says a lot.
- [13:43]
Mart Green
Yeah, just today, earlier, I was talking to a guy and we got into conversation and we got to him, I said, oh, I'll send you my favorite quotes. You know, then I'll say, hey, if you want to read the book, fine, but if not, at least get the favorite quotes. But yeah, they come back to me. And so I've learned so much from other people.
- [13:55]
Craig Groeschel
And then you'll probably revisit those at times. And I also like what you said. You're an introvert and so that you learn better that way. And so what I try to get our community to do is see how you're wired and designed and then go create a plan that works best for you in that way. I'd like to hear about some of the other things that are unusual that help make you into the leader that you are. One of the things is if we had a special moment together at some point or had a conversation or whatever, you would be able to bring that back up and would over and over again tell me about how you document, why you do it, what that means to you, how you would use it relationally. What's the process? Look like that in your life.
- [14:40]
Mart Green
Yeah, I guess it goes back to another weakness. Because my weakness on reading books is I wish I could remember what I read. And that's why I get the quotes and go back to them. So when I meet people for the first time, usually I'll document when we met them, what the occasion was and maybe two or three facts about them. They've been married for 30 years. They got three kids or whatever. And so. So yeah, I've done that on hundreds of people. And so I can. But I can't remember them. So my brain, I have to keep my phone with me because if I don't have my phone with me, I've lost my brain. But it just helps me to remember to go back. But there's other people have photographic memory. I don't have that. So I know I don't. So I'm never going to. I can't practice my way to that. So I overcome my weakness by trying to document things.
- [15:18]
Craig Groeschel
And the why would be obvious to some people, but not to everyone. Why would you do that when most people don't?
- [15:27]
Mart Green
Yeah, I think it's honoring to people. And I've learned that friendships are one of the greatest gifts that God gives us, you know, and so how do I be a good friend to know something about you, to be able to remember that? Now I wish I could remember it on my own, and so I don't. But I think a trusted friendship is what I. What I say is one of the greatest gifts God gives us. So I want to be a trusted friend. And so.
- [15:47]
Craig Groeschel
Okay, so. And again, you just. You say it, and it's so natural to you, but I want to highlight it. Trusted friendship is one of the greatest gifts that God can give us. And there is no doubt that. Let's call it success. Let's call it God honoring activities, whatever it is. The impact you have in life is 100% a direct result of the relationships that you have over and over and over again.
- [16:13]
Mart Green
Absolutely.
- [16:14]
Craig Groeschel
And so you value them, and not just the people that can give you something, but you value people. And I'd like to hear a little bit of the heart behind it, because I've learned from you, watching you, and you've made me better. Just kind of help me understand why it matters so much to treat people the way that you feel like they're worthy of being treated.
- [16:39]
Mart Green
Yeah, I guess early on, another lesson you learn is that when you burn bridges, it lasts for a long, long. So then I learned, even I've had situations that didn't work out well. I mean it was tough. But I've learned never to burn that bridge, you know, to still keep half the bridge up. So I want to keep half the bridge up. You may never come back. But how do you do that? So that's to. So that's to all people. It's even your enemies, if you would. What feels like enemies. And so because you just never know. And it's crazy. It is crazy. How many times 10 years later, 15 years later, something that happened way back then and because I didn't burn the bridge like I did when I was younger, it actually came back. And not only did it was it healed, it became a huge advantage to me. So I have several stories where I thought that was over and it's done that. Wow. God restored that relationship and it helped me move forward. But I never know when that's going to happen. So how do you treat everybody? Well. And I think that's the best way to do it.
- [17:33]
Craig Groeschel
I don't think you would describe this the way I would, but when I observe you and admire this about you, my observation, and it would be incomplete, but it seems like you have a unbelievable focus on genuinely caring for the people in front of you. And yet there also seems to be like a little bit of a chess strategy to it. Meaning like you want to care for them for no other reason than care for them. But you've always got like long term motives that are for good outside of yourself. That it might be that I might just be kind to this person and never see him again or I might be kind to this person in 12 years from now. We have to do something significant together. Is there any kind of like a long term plan heart? It seems like it. But I'm kind of curious. Is it just natural? Can you put skin on that for me?
- [18:29]
Mart Green
Well, I wish I was smart enough to figure that all out right for the future. So I just. Because there's lots of people I've been kind to and nice to and tried to keep the bridge and I never see him again, you know. And so I just trust that's not my responsibility. I just want to do the right thing. How do I go do the next right thing? How do I treat people? Well, I want to be treated well. I've made mistakes. I hope people will give me a second chance. And I've had people that wouldn't give me a second chance. And it grieved my heart because I thought, oh, I could have done better if you just could have seen me Differently because I made a mistake the first time and so. But yeah, I don't think I'm smart enough to manipulate or even make those things happen. I just know that they do. I've seen them happen.
- [19:06]
Craig Groeschel
What's interesting is, and it's hard to describe, but there are gift givers that feel manipulative and you kind of know, like, hey, they're giving you something because they kind of want something. There are gift givers that feel genuine and you have a real unique ability to give what I would call very personal and genuine gifts that you put a lot of thought into. Can you tell me, tell me about that?
- [19:34]
Mart Green
Yeah, well, yeah, I just. Through, through time, I just. In praying or thinking about people, I think, well, what's something symbolic? I like symbolic things. I got stuff on my body when I run everything. Every piece of clothing has symbolics to it. So I'm a very symbolic person. So when I give a gift, I like to think of something symbolic. Who's this person? What is it that I could say to them? Well, how could I connect to their heart? And so I want it to be a symbolic gift. Yeah, that can be a nice gift. And yeah, I don't want ever to be. To get something back. I do want it to be honoring gift, you know, because I've been in that situation where I'm trying to figure out is this a gift or is this an obligation that I'm giving.
- [20:09]
Craig Groeschel
I just got into what's really meaningful is that you've brought things to me. And some of the most meaningful gifts didn't really cost a lot of money, but they were very, very thoughtful. And all the way down to. And again, you know, this is so second nature to you, but there are. How many anniversaries of something do you think that you would remember about me if you're just kind of following in your normal routine?
- [20:39]
Mart Green
Yeah, quite a few of them.
- [20:41]
Craig Groeschel
Quite a few, right?
- [20:41]
Mart Green
Yeah. Yeah.
- [20:42]
Craig Groeschel
And I don't have anybody else that would do that. And there's nothing manipulative about it because I really don't have anything to give you. The all we have is the opportunity to do things together. And when you started treating me well, we had no strategy together. There was no. There were just two people in the same town that kind of had a common faith, but nothing else.
- [21:08]
Mart Green
Yeah.
- [21:09]
Craig Groeschel
And so that to me is what I'm trying to bring out. And I feel like I'm way undervaluing what you do, but you, you, you meet with people, you find out what they care about. You find out what's going on in their life. You document it, and the next time you're there, you will ask them about it. You might bring them a book about it. You might have a gift that has something about it. And it's just. It's consistent. It's pure in motive. It's rare and it's meaningful. I'm going to ask you a question. There may not be an answer to this, but is there a story behind it? Is there a. Is there a something in life that. That just created that in you that it's not everybody else?
- [21:52]
Mart Green
Great question. I've never thought of it and I, you know, I'll have to think longer about it because nothing comes to my mind at the very top. I just maybe see my family being that way. I mean, I just saw my mom and my dad always care for people. And so, yeah, probably it's hereditary. And they saw their parents do that. And so I've heard story about my grandmother and, and her gift of generosity. You know, my grandmother was. Was not. Had no wealth. You know, she'd have two dresses and she'd give one away, you know, and so she gave her a gift. She figured out the value of it because she want to pay tithes, you know, because she thought she ought to pay tithes on her increase. So that's just a. She just loved people. She loved the Lord. And so because she understood how much she was loved, it was easy for her to love. So I would, if I had to go back to anything, I think it was modeled for me through a couple of generations of the people that I got to see.
- [22:36]
Craig Groeschel
And I would say that's true, too. Like, so long before I knew your family, you know, I was 22, maybe 23, graduated from college. I was a new follower of Jesus and kind of felt called to ministry. But nobody was calling, right? So I, so I took a job with Honeywell selling security systems. And what's crazy is I went to your family's house and had no reason to remember them whatsoever. Besides, I remembered them. It wasn't like, hey, these are the Mardell Hobby Lobby people. They were just really kind people. And the culture in their house was so distinct that I remembered it. And years later, when they became more well known for their, both their business success and ministry success, then I was like going, that was the family. Whatever. And so culturally, that family, their home, the values, the way they treated me stood out when I was nothing but basically a door to door sales guy. And so I think that's Some of that is just who you are, and it really is special. I wanted. There's no way to describe what all you're involved in. And this is what you know. One of the things I learned from you is how do you have multifaceted impact in many different areas? So you founded and built a retail chain. You work with a family that founded and built another and bigger retail chain. You've been involved with the ministry Every tribe, every Nation. You produced movies. You assisted your brother and helped. He spearheaded launching the Museum of the Bible. And you're in that orbit. You're working today on the runaway hit series Somehow. Now you're in the middle of the chosen and helping direct. Not direct, but wrong word but lead that you partner with Illuminations and YouVersion, your strategic friend and generous partner of the YouVersion Bible app. You're possibly probably. You and Bobby Gruenwald would be the two biggest advocates that I know and arguably two of the biggest in the world for God getting God's word out. You continue to lead efforts of generosity across the world. You help people nonstop. How in the world do you do all that?
- [24:57]
Mart Green
It goes back to the original thing. I talked about good people surrounding myself. And I'll never forget one of the quotes I steal from you. And I'm obsessed with empowering the right people, not just people, but how do you find the right people? So professionally, I have one prayer, and it's based on Luke 10 and 2. So people say, how can I pray for you? Well, I have family issues. I can pray for that. But professionally, there's only one prayer. The harvest is plentiful, but the harvest hands are few. Pray for harvest hands. And so I'm always praying. I mean, right now I'm looking for some board members. You know, different things.
- [25:26]
Craig Groeschel
So interesting. You're praying. You're praying for the right people.
- [25:28]
Mart Green
Right people.
- [25:29]
Craig Groeschel
All the time.
- [25:29]
Mart Green
All the time.
- [25:30]
Craig Groeschel
I probably should do that. I feel like I'm actually blessed with the right people in the right places. I'm always praying for wisdom. And so it might be a question I might add to. It's like, what are you always praying for? So you're always praying for the right people?
- [25:42]
Mart Green
Yes, because that's because I love empowering people, and so I don't have to do everything myself. I've learned that a long, long time ago now. When I was at Mardell and I was a founder, I ran that business. There was a lot of weight to that because I was in charge and had, you know, 800 employees. All those kind of things. Now I'm in a situation where I'm at where I'm just helping empower come alongside whether it's Bobby here at U Verse and how can I help him? How can I add value to him? Other projects I've started have a little bit more weight to them, but I'm usually working myself out. You know, I know I'm kind of working myself out of a job. So I'm always looking for people, which is so fun because you see people, they grow and all that. Some people can be micromanagers and try to take control of things. That's not my natural personality. So that's.
- [26:20]
Craig Groeschel
So would you. And I've never thought of this, but you actually were also involved in some what I call like rescue projects of big visible institutions and you did work yourself out of that. Are you in most cases when you start, do you think this is a project I might have long term oversight on, but I want to be in and out, I want to make a difference and work myself out. Do you have that mindset going into most things?
- [26:49]
Mart Green
Yeah, I do now because I gave up Mardell that I'd done for 35 years to be available and so that's kind of where I'm at. And there's some things I stay with longer. Bible translation I've been with for 15 years and I'm 2033. I'm going to be with it for at least another eight years trying to reach a goal. But yeah, so I. I kind of trying to figure out what's my identity and I try to get it down to a couple of words and through a long process transformational unifier. So if I had to get myself down to two words to be a transformational unifier.
- [27:15]
Craig Groeschel
So explain that to me in more detail.
- [27:17]
Mart Green
So transformation means you got to transform something. You got to do things differently than what it was before and at the same time unify. So the words are almost seems like they're opposed to each other. But then how do you unify it? So I think of a bridge and so a bridge. How do you bring two sides together to get something done that would not get done separately? And I will be in it and it will be in me, but it doesn't need me anymore. Right. And so that's what I'm trying to find those projects just like you version that doesn't necessarily need me, but I'm helping them to bridge in the case Bible translation that were needed.
- [27:48]
Craig Groeschel
So this is a crazy question, but I'm starting to get clarity it's interesting. We've had. I've asked you a million questions before and now at this moment I'm getting clarity, your transformative unifier, which is, that's true. You always have some kind of exterior motive, meaning it's like it's never for you, which is so odd. Like it's always moving something else, usually a ministry or a mission forward. And you're always doing it with connecting people. You're always in the middle of, have you met this person? Have you met that person? And the interesting part is there are others who do it, but it's usually about building something I care about or building something for me. And yours seems to be other others focused. Is that something you can do early or do you have to be like, do you have to have handed off the stores to do it? Like, talk to me about someone else who wants to create that type of impact.
- [28:43]
Mart Green
Yeah, that's great. I mean, we all had different kind of personalities. So like I said, for me it's kind of a natural deal. I saw my Dad, I was 19, right? He helped me go get a loan. How many people, how many dads help their 19 year old son get a loan? Now, I felt a huge obligation to that. And so, yeah, I think people empowering others is a huge gift. You've spoken about it in your leadership podcast. You know, you can't be a micromanager. You have to empower people. You've got to do that, otherwise you're going to choke that out. Now, some people only want a certain size and maybe that's all they're supposed to be, is a certain size. And not everything has to grow to a thousand stores. So there's nothing wrong with not being an empowering of people. But if you want to grow in certain ways in certain places, then you're going to have to empower people.
- [29:23]
Craig Groeschel
Okay, so tell me about the people you're looking for. What are the qualities that are going to make a good trusted team member or even trusted friend?
- [29:32]
Mart Green
Yeah, yeah. So that was a long process, but I kind of got into three words and they're G, H and I. So I like to keep things simple. G is generous. I'm looking for people who are generous because I feel like that helps defeat one of Satan's tricks, which is the lust of the eyes, looking for someone who has humility, which beats the gift, the Satan's trick of the pride of life. So I want people to be humble and then the lust of the flesh would be integrity. So if you can find Me. These are the three character traits. Somebody who's generous, somebody has humility, and somebody has integrity. Those are my friends.
- [30:06]
Craig Groeschel
So crazy question, did you pick those qualities and then realize they happen to be the opposite of the temptations or did you back in. How'd you come up with those?
- [30:15]
Mart Green
Yeah, well, Randy Alcorn had talked about the three that Satan has. Satan created nothing, so he had to corrupt something. So he gave the neutrals. I said, randy, you left me hanging here. I know the neutral. You know, there's nothing wrong with your possessions. There's nothing wrong with power. There's nothing wrong with pleasure. Those three P's. But I know the negatives to them. But I got to know the positive. So that's where I said, no, no, no, I have to know the antidote. So I just prayed about it, thought through and said, well, how do you do that? And I thought about my grandmother. Well, she's generous. You don't have to worry about her. She. The lust of the eyes, she had no problem with that. People who are humble don't have problem with pride. People who have integrity don't have. With the lust of the flesh. And so they just happened to work out to GH&I, which I kind of like.
- [30:53]
Craig Groeschel
What's interesting is when I feel you helping me. So we're having conversation and maybe I've got a personal issue I'm asking about or I'm wrestling with. You know, I'm trying to grow to the next stage. I actually feel you leading me in those areas and it kind of asked me questions toward those. And what's interesting is I would think I would pick humility and I would pick integrity and like bringing a team member on generosity, I actually love the value of generosity. I would not have put that in my top list, but now that you say it, it really makes a lot of sense that that would be a quality that is going to be. There's no way to be mission minded if you are selfish. There's no way to be helping others if you are selfish. And so I appreciate that you mentioned the lust of the eyes. And that wouldn't just mean like lusting after someone as a, you know, after a person. Yeah. I think you're even referring to it as like the lusting after the things of this world. And so when you. What's interesting is when you're, when you treat people well, when you surround yourself with good people, when you have good ideas, you tend to create value and often you end up making money. And is that good Thing. Bad thing. What's. Talk to me about what do you do? What do you do with wealth?
- [32:17]
Mart Green
Yeah. No, I think excellence is what we all are striving for, and some. And excellence can bring that. How do you get mission fulfillment with economic sustainability?
- [32:23]
Craig Groeschel
As a Christian, is there something wrong with making a lot of money?
- [32:26]
Mart Green
No, I don't think so.
- [32:28]
Craig Groeschel
Okay. Right. No, you don't think so?
- [32:30]
Mart Green
No, no.
- [32:30]
Craig Groeschel
Okay. So I can make sure if you're gonna be gray with me. No, nothing wrong with it. Okay.
- [32:37]
Mart Green
Nothing wrong with making money. And so. And in our case, we like to make more money because we give more money away. That's. That's our motivating factor. We've not taken raises for 10 or 15 years now, you know, because we. God's done well for us. We don't feel sorry for me. There's nothing wrong with that. But what motivates us. Why do we put another story in? Why do we put 30 more stories? That's just 30 more headaches that we're gonna have. Because we love to give and we love to be generous, and we think if you do business excellence, you can do business with excellence and you can make money. And God actually gave us work. Now, the fall made work hard, but I think there's always been work, and so we get fulfillment in our work.
- [33:10]
Craig Groeschel
So based on what I read in studies, it seems that sometimes when people make more money, the percentage of what they give doesn't always go up. In fact, it often goes down. What would you say to somebody that is in that place? That they are. That they are blessed. Maybe more than they expected.
- [33:30]
Mart Green
Yeah.
- [33:31]
Craig Groeschel
Talk about responsibility. Or. Or do they have them. You got ghi. I think you also have another eroi, which is a little different. Yeah, I might go there. You might speak into that. If it works.
- [33:46]
Mart Green
Yeah. Recently I read a quote from Albert Einstein. He said he found the eighth great wonder of the world. What's eighth great wonder of the world? I'm one of the smartest guy ever. And he said, compound interest. I'm going, compound interest? Yeah, it's very powerful. If you take $1,000 and put it under a pillow and come back 40 years later, it's going to be worth a whole lot less than $1,000. All right. If you've got simple interest, it's worth three times as much. If you get compound interest, it's like 15 times, you know, so it's. Compound is very powerful. I thought, wow, if he'd have met Jesus like I have, he'd have said, Compound generosity, because I believe compound generosity grows. So there's a lot of people that are holding their money. They're not doing stuff with it. I'm saying it's like putting them under the pillow, put it to work. Because I do believe we're eternal beatings. I do believe you can't take it with you, but you can send it on ahead. So there are verses throughout the Bible that talks about God rewards. Now some people think it's here now. I think, no, no, no, it's there and later. And I'd rather have it there and later. So I'm kicking as much stuff as I can to eternity because attorney's a whole lot longer then maybe the 100 years. If I lived 100, I'll be lucky. Right? But eternity is forever. So yeah, I'm encouraging people store up your treasures on the other side because yes, there's ROI of the business person return on investment, but I realize it's eternal return on investment. So I want an EROI. What's going to matter 10,000 years from now?
- [35:00]
Craig Groeschel
So being successful well, is challenging. Having a lot of wealth and managing well and is really, really hard to do. It's one of the reasons I would not want to be you, because a lot of people come to you with a lot of ideas. Invest in this, give toward this, invest in this, put your time toward this. How do you determine if someone or some idea is worthy of any type of investment? Be it time, finances? What do you look for before you give your most valuable resource your time or you invest in it, both to help them grow or just invest in it? Be generous. What are you looking for?
- [35:42]
Mart Green
Yeah, it's a dynamic process, as you can imagine. And yes, wealth has its issues. Now it doesn't have the issue. I know where my food's coming from, my shelter and all that. So I'm blessed, blessed, blessed. But then you feel the stewardship responsibility. Where do you give that money? In our case, we actually have seven family members. We've all worked together for nearly 50 years that make those decisions. So the other good news is there's more than one. But I say stewardship for us has three Hs to it. One, a steward is generous without your heart. Right. You see something, you see a need and you want to meet it. And so we all have that inside of us. If a child falls down, we help pick them up. That's a generous act and so that's your heart. But then you learn that sometimes people can tell you stories that aren't true. All right. And so you used your heart and it was a heart wrenching story. But come to find out, none of the money went where you said it was. So then you use your head. That's discerning. So I think good stewardship is both your heart and your head. And discerning and generosity, that's good stewardship. And then for us, we believe the Holy Spirit actually can prompt us. And so there are different times that we've given to certain places because we felt like the Lord tapped somebody's heart and we'd have to say, hey, look, I just feel like maybe you should do this. But there's six more of you guys. Let's all pray together. And so there's been a few places where that's the way we gave.
- [36:49]
Craig Groeschel
Yeah. And again, I want to highlight these because this is good. You know, your heart really, really does matter. What do you care about? And where your heart goes, where your treasure goes, your heart follows. And then your head really matters a lot too, because I know a lot of people have big heart and no head. I come like, use your head. You know, if this organization's in trouble seven years in a row and you're always bailing them out, they're probably getting in trouble eight years in a row. So like, you use your head and then the prompting of the spirit, those are really good guidelines for making a difference. And so you could invest, you could invest money. You also invest your time. And I'm just kind of curious, if you had a totally empty day on your calendar, which would be probably non existent, but if you did and you could go invest your time doing anything, what would you do?
- [37:37]
Mart Green
I would invest it making sure that people get God's word translated in their heart language. And so that's my heart, that's my deepest heart longing. Because our family mission statement, we have a business mission statement. And you should, and that's very important, have a mission statement that we sat down and had one for our family because all of a sudden my kids are marrying in our family. Went from my mom and dad, who were two, now there's 47 of us all living in Oklahoma City. So we said, wow, we better get a mission statement. So it's to love God intimately and live extravagant generosity and so to love God intimately. The number one way I know how to love God is through his word. So if I want that for my kiddos, then I have to want it for all this world. And when I found out that everybody didn't have God's word in the heart, language, it became a my driving force for me.
- [38:16]
Craig Groeschel
See, I am. I am so fascinated and so nerdy that I'm always listening to actually hear animal listen, to study. So the whole time I'm going, okay, I can use this, my head, my heart and the Holy Spirit. I can use that. G H I. Generosity, humility, integrity. I can use all that. And then I'm going, I hear, I see a common theme, which is like filters or structures of intentionality, meaning you're almost not coming into hardly any situations where you don't have some framework of decision making that kind of shapes what you do. It's deep values that you know what you stand for. And then it's a clear direction that this is what we're going to try to accomplish. And then there's a strategy that can be vibrant and flexible along the way, but most people don't have those things. Does that. Does that come naturally to you? Do you have to work on it? Why do you seem to have clarity when so many people don't?
- [39:20]
Mart Green
Yeah, that's a great question. It feels like it comes somewhat naturally for me. And again, I get modeled through my family and just again, thinking eternally. We always think about eternity. Think about 10,000 years from now. What's going to matter 10,000 years from now? So when you think that way, it automatically kind of makes you make decisions a certain way. I think, you know, some things become frivolous and stuff like that. Yeah, we go have fun, we go to basketball games. We do this. Not like we do everything that's serious and all that kind of stuff, but at the bottom of my mind and thinking through, I'm thinking about eternity, I'm thinking about others. And I've got a mission statement to love God intimately and live extravagant generosity. And so how do I do that in my family? And how do I make sure that others who want to can do the same thing?
- [39:58]
Craig Groeschel
Well, I am obviously a pastor, and so my whole mission is with driven to make a difference in people's lives. And then there's this podcast which is kind of what I call a complimentary lane, meaning that I just devour, love, good leadership. And I feel like it. Not only does it help empower what we do missionally, but I love leadership, period. And so the purpose of this podcast is actually not to push my faith, our faith on people. And I hope people believe me when I say that. At the same time, there's no way to have you on here without you. You can't. You can't not Talk about your faith. And I would never want to rob you from that because that is who you are, and I share your faith passionately. The book Learning to Be the Everyday Believer's guide to a Rich Relationship with God. There are so many people that think, okay, Mark Green, you've built, like, ministry, empires, business, whatever, aren't you going to write about that? And yet you're not. Tell me the story behind the book.
- [41:09]
Mart Green
Yeah. As a co author, David Bowden, another gentleman, he lives in Oklahoma City, came to me and he said, mark, incredibly talented. Yeah, talented guy, ridiculously spoken gospel. He said, mark, whenever you talk about God, it seems like he's chasing you down. In my life, he says, I always feel like I have to earn God's love. And when he said that, I said, well, I never thought about it that way. And when our family came up with Love God Intimately Live Extravagant generosity as our mission statement, I started saying, well, how do you do that? How do you get in with God? And so over time, it took me five or 10 years, I wrote down 31 different ways. I call them gateways to intimacy. Well, he'd seen that document, and he kind of writes theologically from that perspective. And so. And he was learning that God does pursue him. And that's why it's called learning to be loved. The book. And so he said, mart, I'll write theology and some of that if you'll write 20 stories. So he asked me to take 20 of my 31 gateways of intimacy and just write about stories about those. So I wrote about 20% of the book. David wrote the rest of it. And I'm glad.
- [42:11]
Craig Groeschel
I want to do one of those books where I write 20%.
- [42:14]
Mart Green
I told people I wouldn't write books. I sell books. I said, no, no, I don't want to write on. I write books, I sell books. He happened to hit me on the one subject that he could do it, and he wrote 80% of it.
- [42:22]
Craig Groeschel
So is there a story that you wrote about that kind of stands out as something that's super meaningful to you?
- [42:30]
Mart Green
Yeah, I mean, there's several that are very important to me. I guess there would be one that I'd like to. That I would share, probably, and it's called Wounds, because a lot of times people don't think that wounds can be a way to intimacy with God. So what's my wound story? Well, I got married. You know, I found my wife in ninth grade, pursued her for six years, and finally she agreed. And we got married a few years later. And 43 years later, she's been my wife with four kiddos. But we were. We in our marriage, we had some, you know, some complications and stuff along the way, and so we'll get it worked out. And then my son started marrying. I started. There's some of the same problems. I got to get these people fixed, right? So I brought a coach in to fix, you know, help my wife and help, you know, some of my kids were marrying these people that I didn't raise, right? So they come, they talk about trust. I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, trust. You know, I'm pretty good trust builder. God's gifted me with that. And then he asked, how are you with emotional trust? And I'm like, whoa, just a second here. First of all, I don't know what you're talking about. Emotional trust. Why is that? Well, Mark, do people trust you with their emotions? And I'm like, oh, my gosh. You know? So as we dug deeper in that, I realized that when my wife came to me with her emotions, I just naturally. Because since I was 19 years old, every time somebody brings me a problem, they want me to fix it, right? And so I'm trying to fix it. And he says, she doesn't want you to do that. She wants you to go down the well with her. And I'm like, well, no, I'm not going down the well with her. I'm trying to get her up out of that well. No, no, she wants you to feel what she feels. Her feelings are real and stuff like that. And so through a process. So that's one of my deep wounds, is realizing I hurt some of my family members. I had to go back, especially the more artistic they were, because they live out of their feelings, that I realized that I'd hurt them because of my personality, because I just assumed everybody's like me, right? And they're not. And so that deep wound of realizing that she didn't want me to fix it. So how can I let people trust me with their emotions? Am I a safe place for people to come with their emotions? And so.
- [44:30]
Craig Groeschel
Because what's interesting is, like, I see that in you, meaning you are. You're. You are a fixer. But to this day, you do seem to leave a safe space for people to express emotions. So I think you've grown, you know.
- [44:44]
Mart Green
Yeah, yeah. But you. Yeah, you know me in the. In the later years, in the earlier years. And so that's a. That's a wound. So.
- [44:51]
Craig Groeschel
So we could. We could. I mean, we could spend hours Talking about that in marriage, because that's a real important issue. But there are other podcasts to do that. So I'm gonna bring it back to, like, organizational leadership. One of the biggest problems is the more successful you become, the harder it is to have a realistic view of how you come across. Right. You lose self awareness. Talk to me about how you've grown in that way. When people see you now, you're kind of. You're just so well respected, revered, almost like a legend. And so people, when they walk in, they might be really nervous. How do you do to emotionally connect when people might be even hesitant to be themselves?
- [45:36]
Mart Green
Yeah, power dynamics are real. Even though you'll feel them or you want to, people know, oh, you have a lot of money or you've done these kind of things, so they kind of feel that you don't feel that toward yourself, but it's there. So for me, I've realized that if I can just let my voice come last as best I can, because once somebody, the leader says something, then it almost sets the pace of the room and stuff like that. And there's times to do that. But we're trying to collaborate, which a lot of what I'm trying to do now is leverage, giving, and collaborate. That's transformational unifier. Then if I don't watch, if I speak too early, then I've kind of killed new ideas. So I usually try to be the last one to speak as best I can so that I know that I'm hearing real, real thoughts and then honoring those thoughts again before, I would not have understand the emotions and all those kind of things. Yes, emotions sometimes can get out of control, of course, and some other times you need to work on that, but to understand what's happening behind that. There's something behind that emotion. So how do you get that? But I think probably one of the things I've tried to learn over time is just be real slow about speaking, which is not. I mean, because you get ideas, you want to share them, and you want to. You put them out there. But I realized that I killed other people's ideas.
- [46:35]
Craig Groeschel
It's interesting because I think most leaders, if you ask them, they would probably say you do set the tone, you go first. And. And there are definitely times you do that. But I think you're right, especially the more you want to empower people and the more collaborative you want to be, the more you have to intentionally work to not speak first. And then. Let me ask you about this, too. One thing I've noticed Is like the bigger our organization gets, the more I have to have, the more I have to accept things outside of my preferences. Because if I try to control everything, I'm going to limit some things. Is. Do you find that true? Can you. Can you. Do you agree? Do you disagree? What?
- [47:17]
Mart Green
Yeah. And there's pros and cons to it. There's pros because, wow, better ideas come up and you get to go through that and sometimes things happen and you have to realize you got to come back and pull that back in because now we've gotten off mission or wherever we're trying to go and all that stuff. So there's both sides of that.
- [47:31]
Craig Groeschel
But yeah, there's pros and cons to every level. I'd love to hear just a little bit more behind the scenes, because when I look at you, the disciplines are insane. Meaning you will, you know, seven years from now if we ask you what happened on this day, you'll be able to pull out details and talk to me about it. And I won't remember much of what happened today. You have your scripture reading. When's Your anniversary date?
- [48:00]
Mart Green
February 8, 1998 was the start.
- [48:03]
Craig Groeschel
And how many years?
- [48:04]
Mart Green
27 years.
- [48:04]
Craig Groeschel
27 years. And so I learned from you the importance of remembering those things. So I actually have that in my calendars is something to. And I wouldn't have done that without you. But you've done that for me. And so I recognize that in there you've got what are some of the daily disciplines or even just rhythms that you have in your life that people might not know or they might undervalue that help shape you to become the person that you are.
- [48:33]
Mart Green
Yeah, I guess my morning routine would be where I start. I mean, I always want to start with some of these gateways of intimacy. And there's three verses I pray every morning before I read the Bible.
- [48:42]
Craig Groeschel
And before the three verses, some of the gateways of intimacy. What are some of the gateways?
- [48:48]
Mart Green
God's word would be obviously prayer wounds, fear. There's been times that I've had fear, but then I've learned to get closer to the Lord. Nature has been of them believing that God exists. The Bible tells us you'll get closer. I just found verse that talked about. So there's 31 different ways to do that. And so. So obviously I'm trying to get two or three of them in the morning. Right. And then used to, I'm a very left brain person, so I don't get a lot of music in my life, but I Realize it's songs at different times. So every morning now, I just buy an album. I just listen to 10 songs. Every year on January 1st, I give my kids the songs of the year. So last year there was 12. I give them an apple guard. I don't humor myself. They go download the 12 songs I give them. They may do it as something else. And so. But they're just songs that for some reason, that day just spoke deeply to me. But I've just given myself the opportunity. And then I do things. Physically, I'm a runner. And so I enjoy going to spend about 30 minutes just running on a day because I feel like, you know, that I want to take care of my spirit, my mind, and my body. And so that's part of my lifelong learning. That's why I wasn't keeping my mind challenged on my body. So those are the ways that I start my day.
- [49:47]
Craig Groeschel
And so it's interesting how taking care of your body also seems to take care of other things as well.
- [49:53]
Mart Green
For sure.
- [49:53]
Craig Groeschel
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the book is Learning to be loved. It's by David Bowden and Mark Green, the subtitle of the Everyday Believer's guide to a richer relationship with God. I like the theme, Learning to be loved because I think there are a lot of us, me included, who grew up in more of a. I'm going to perform my way to be accepted and I'm going to work my way in. And so I think I do have to learn to be loved. I want to tell you just like, thank you sincerely for being a true friend. And by that meaning someone I've trusted with really intimate details of my life. You've given me a lot of good advice in pivotal times and it's really fun to be aligned together. It was, I mean, it's pretty cool. The you virgin Bible app, you know, was started Bobby Greenwald here in Oklahoma City. You happen to be in Oklahoma City with a really similar heart. And together we've been able to now we'll see it on a billion devices by later on this year, which is unbelievable. As you look forward, tell me about what lights your fire. What makes you jump out of bed every day and say, let's attack.
- [51:04]
Mart Green
Well, one of them is that you version is getting ready to download the 1 billionth device coming up this year. So that gets me super, super excited.
- [51:12]
Craig Groeschel
We're probably going to celebrate a little bit. Yeah, yeah.
- [51:14]
Mart Green
And I got to drive by and saw you got a new building for you version. So I just know it's growing and God's been blessing that. And then I've been excited about the chosen, I think the Chosen incredible television series because my passion for languages, we're going to help them get into 600 languages. 95% of the world speaks the top 600 languages. So those are a couple things that I'm working on right now outside of Bible translation, which I've been doing and will continue to do for years. So those are some of the most exciting things going on right now.
- [51:39]
Craig Groeschel
Well, I, I think that's, that's worthy of being in a lot of different languages. And I like the fact that many of the things you do are multilingual, meaning you're trying to reach the world and that's a pretty special place. And it all started with a 19 year old that was looking for a 6,000 square foot store and thought it was too big. So talk to someone now who isn't in the season of the harvest yet. They're still planting the seeds. Talk to them and give them a little bit of encouragement about what's possible. If they are generous, if they are humble, if they do have integrity, if they are others focused and work hard and keep the right motives to give them a little bit of encouragement.
- [52:26]
Mart Green
Yeah, and as you said, I'm a person of faith. That's obviously very obvious. But I believe God created us all with a purpose and a plan or what I call an identity. That's why I pushed in. That's just even the last year. What's my identity? What am I going to do? There's some things about Craig Groeschel I love. I wish I could be like you and this and that. And I realized, you know what? I don't need to be you. God didn't make me to be Craig Groeschel. I need you to be the best crochet possible. I need to be the best Mark Green possible. So don't compare yourself to others. Go in and find in your spirit what is it that you were created. You have a purpose. And we all lose. When you don't live your purpose out and we try to be somebody else, we lose too. So go back in. How do you find out who you're made to be? And some of it's your natural giftings, your bent, all that stuff. It takes time. It takes talking to others. I have six adventure partners. I ask them, do you think I'm a transformational unifier? Does this resonate with you? And so they were able to help me process, get with others. Who am I? Where does God naturally Use me and forget trying to be Craig Groeschel. Don't try to be Mark Green. Please don't try to be Mark Green. Be who you are. Because we all lose if you don't be the best identity that you should be.
- [53:25]
Craig Groeschel
And once again, you just mentioned you have six adventure partners. And just tell me briefly about them.
- [53:32]
Mart Green
About 20 years ago, I was getting over my head, so I wanted to get. Actually, I had seven at that time. One. One passed through Covid. So for the last 20 years, these guys come along. They're kind of like my, if you want to call them a board, my accountability group. But these are the guys that I hold myself accountable. And so when life gets upside down, it gets crazy, you know, These seven guys I can call, one's a pastor, one's business, one's my neighbor. Some are out of town. So they've all got variety. A couple of them think I'm the greatest thing ever. I got a couple who prune me every single time, right? So you need guys who kind of cheer you on and you need guys who kind of prune you. But I just call them my adventure partners because I think life is an adventure. It's uncomfortable. You get wounded, but you can see God provide if you go on that adventure.
- [54:09]
Craig Groeschel
So I love the way you've made time for the things that matter most. A lot of times we get just sucked into whatever's yelling the loudest. And you make time for your friends. You make time to keep the mission and ministry first. And I just. I thank you for your friendship. I thank you for your partnership and mission together and look forward to doing with you for years and years to come. So it's been an honor to have you on. And I want to say just to our community, man, I hope that you. I hope that you can see what's special about this interview is what you've got here is you've got someone that's very, very centered, very, very grounded, very, very humble. And really with the, the purity of focus. And I've worked with a lot of people and I can be self focused at times. Like, how is this going to benefit me? And when I. When I work with Mart and people like him, there is, there is a motive to help and serve other people. And it's all he would tell you for the glory of God. And it is. And so if you posture yourself that way, if you learn from him and say, I want to be generous, I want to be. I want to be humble, I want to be teaching, I want to be a person of integrity, and then you assemble great people around you. It's unimaginable what you can accomplish and the difference that you can make. And so I just want to say thank you for taking the time to listen. I'm going to work really, really hard to bring content that helps you get better. And what you heard today, give yourself permission to be a little bit weird. You're not going to do the same weird things that Mark does, but press into whatever, whatever those unique disciplines are, those passions that make you uniquely you, and then let those things come out and just know that you have more in you. 19 year old kid could have never believed all this was possible. And what you're doing now is significant. And you're just getting started. And so thank you for rolling with us. Getting better because we know that everyone wins when the leader gets better.