← Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast
Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast
Dave Ramsey’s Guide to Business Growth
00:50:10
What does it take to build a thriving, value-driven organization? In this episode, Dave Ramsey breaks down the five stages every healthy business must grow through and shares practical wisdom he’s learned while leading Ramsey Solutions.
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- [00:00]
A
It's one of our core values. We're all self employed here. Treat the place like you own it. They can be very talented and have a crummy value system. They don't fit in with us. Be ready to break it continually before it breaks itself. You've got to really start managing your time and you really got to start bringing on team that you can delegate to. Otherwise you're stuck in this treadmill and you will burn up. You're in for the ride of your life. It's going to be a gloriously fun.
- [00:31]
B
Hey, it's great to have you back for another episode of the Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast where our calling is to help you become a leader that others love to follow. And I've got great news for you today. I have one of my favorite friends and a three time guest on the Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast. We've got back today the CEO of Ramsey Solutions and the host of the Ramsey Show. My good friend Dave Ramsey has one of the largest podcast and radio shows and personal growth YouTube channel in the entire world. He's author of a bunch of books, New York Times bestselling author, the Total money makeover, of course, Entre Leadership. That's my favorite book. And it's the book that spawned the Entree Leadership Podcast. This guy is a world class business leader, the best of the best, expert on teaching finances, a very strong Christian, a great man and a great friend of mine. Dave, welcome back to the podcast.
- [01:31]
A
Good to be back with you, grandpa. You keep getting grandkids faster than anybody I've ever met, man.
- [01:36]
B
Just call me Pops. That's what we're doing. We are. Last count, we're up to number seven and probably 12 by the time I see you next time.
- [01:44]
A
And they're all beautiful. Thank you. Just way to go.
- [01:47]
B
Well done. That would be Amy's lineage, not mine.
- [01:50]
A
I know.
- [01:51]
B
Yeah. So how's the golf game?
- [01:55]
A
Golf. Yeah.
- [01:58]
B
Hey, congratulations on this new book. I think this could be maybe overall the most important book that you've written. You think?
- [02:08]
A
You know, it is very Craig Groeschel esque. Because one of the things I've heard you talk to pastors about when we've done events together over and over and over again, is that to rise above a basic level where you just are churning and burning all the time, you've got to put processes and systems in place and you have to recognize the processes and systems that are there even if you didn't know they were there. And I've heard you teach that over and over and over again. And that's what this book is about. It's about processes and systems. So I kind of thought of you when I was doing it.
- [02:42]
B
That's pretty fun. The book is called Build a business. You Mastering the five stages of business. And Dave, one of the things when people come and they tell me how much they love you, I always brag on the things that they don't see. They may hear you on the radio, they've read your books, they've been to your conference. The thing that they don't know, like you've got 1100 or more employees. You've built a global impacting organization with, you know, I've been to your offices. When you walk in, like the culture just, it just jumps on you. It's like you can feel it, smell it, taste it, hear it, sense it all over the place. The people are just on fire. They have a mission. And so I always talk about not just the content that they hear and enjoy, but the leadership that goes behind it. Tell me a little bit about the early stages of building your business because you really didn't know what you were doing at that time. And I want to kind of pull out of you what you learned along the way and then talk a lot about the book. Build a business that you love. Tell me about the early days you were starting small team. What was that like?
- [03:50]
A
Yeah, when I started, man, I was dumber than a rock. All I knew was that there was a lot of people in debt. It's like me and Jenny Craig got a big job. I mean, I can't do this all by myself. I'm going to have to have some help. And I was so dumb. I thought if you hired people, they work. I thought if you hired people, they cared and you know, so hiring and firing, the art that is, that has been a 30, almost a 40 year journey for me now to learn how to do that, to be kind to people, to be good to people and yet require excellence and competence and deal with the human misbehavior that occurs in any organization and just go through, going through that whole process has been a. It's quite a journey. And for most organizations, nonprofits, churches and small businesses, which is what this book and my writing about leadership is always aimed at, it's the biggest pain point people in a congregation don't understand if you've got 40 people on a staff or 4400 people on a staff at a church, is that you spend more of your emotional energy burning calories, trying to deal with all that than you do with almost anything else in the church if you're not careful.
- [05:00]
B
Right. So let's start with someone's building a business. Let's assume they've got a good idea and, well, let's just start there. And then I want to ask about people. If someone does have a good idea, how do we know if it's a hobby? How do we know if it's worthy of a business? People come to you say, dave, I got this great idea. What advice do you give them at that point to know, is this worthy of a business?
- [05:23]
A
Well, and I think it's the same thing of am I ready to plant a church that's starting a business of sorts? I mean, it's not a business in the classical sense, but we're serving the market, we're expecting people to respond. And so how do we have any idea? Well, you need some proof. Texting is what we call it, meaning we need to jump into the market and test some of these things. Very few books I have written, and you too were not first practiced as talks on the stage or discussions on a podcast. And I get the feedback and I go, okay, now wait a minute, that's touching, that's working. And the same thing's true with your business idea. You know, if you, if the only place it works is in your head so far, you know, don't go borrow $100,000 to do it. That that's way you need to get out there and actually collect a check from someone, actually cause someone to move into your seat in front of you before you move forward on something. So it's social proof or pro texting. I'm getting some feedback from the market that says they like this. And the ultimate feedback in business is they give you a check, they say thank you for your service, and this thank you note has a president's face on it.
- [06:29]
B
Right. So it's not just that you like the idea. And if, if you're not moving a product or creating a service that people want, doesn't matter how much you love the idea, you've got to really call it what it is. If it's not converting into sales or generating revenue, it's. It's not likely going to be a business that lasts.
- [06:44]
A
I think you can share this in the same thing. In starting and running a church from the ground up like you have and then one of the most massive churches in America, to say the least. But also on plants, it's not. The thing is, this is hard and anyone that says you can just dance out there and this is going to be easy. And one of the things that's hard about it is what you think is going to work almost never does. So don't overinvest in your prototype, because two years from now, it's not going to look anything like what you thought it was going to look. You're wrong. The only thing you're right about is you've identified a need and you have a passion to fill that need that you're right about. But your prototype is it's never going to see the light of day. You're never going to do this. It's not going to be the book. Financial piece was my first book, and it was not enough. It was not the whole thing. If I had stopped there, we wouldn't be anywhere near where we are. So be ready to break it continually before it breaks itself.
- [07:46]
B
So talk to me about that first stage you're starting, and it is indescribably difficult. And there are some people, they can come in and they can run and manage an existing business, and they don't have the same gifts as someone who could start one. They're really two different skill sets. Talk to me about what someone's going to experience that's difficult, that they don't expect in the first season of starting a business.
- [08:14]
A
Well, it's the treadmill stage. That's stage one of the five stages. And you feel like you're on a treadmill. You feel like a rat in a wheel. You run, run, run, run. All the revenue, all the decisions, all the production leans way too heavily on the founder at that stage. You know, if I'm not there, it doesn't happen. If I'm not on the microphone, if I'm not on the stage, if I'm not preaching, there is no sermon there, you know, and it is 100% dependent on you. Obviously, you don't have a team that you can delegate to at that point. Obviously, you don't have systems and processes in place yet to do that. And that's the nature of the beast at step one. But stage one is you've got to really start managing your time and you really got to start bringing on team that you can delegate to. Otherwise you're stuck in this treadmill and you will burn up. You might not burn out because you're so passionate, but you will just fry out. You cannot run on a treadmill for 20 years. It doesn't work because at that point, all you really own is your job. You don't really own a business yet until you learn to work on the business instead of just in the business, you really. What Michael Gerber says in the book E Myth, you gotta work on it, not just in it. You're stuck in the treadmill stage. And then if you can level up and get past that, get the people in place and start to put the systems in place, then you move on to the other stages.
- [09:32]
B
So mastering the five stages of business, that's the subtitle of the book. Stage one is the Treadmill Operator. You're starting, you're exhausted. Everything rises and falls on you. You're short of cash. Cash is oxygen. You can't. You don't have enough to grow. You're going to go make your first one or two hires. You don't really have something that's. You have an idea more than something that's, you know, worthy of someone risking their whole career to move on. You don't have a lot of money to pay someone. What are you looking for in that person? How do you find them? And what is. What do the first one or two hires look like when you're in the treadm stage?
- [10:10]
A
Well, the great news is with those hires that they're going to come on board because they believe in the crusade, they believe in what you're doing. They're not there for just a J, O, B. And if you can retain that, when you get to 1100, folks, then you've got a serious culture, you know, only hiring crusaders. But what happens is we get a little bit of money and we get a little bit of fame, a little bit of not, you know, marketplace knowledge. People. The brand is recognizable. Then people want to work over there because it's a great. It's a great place for me to come take rather than me to come give. And so you can get away from that. So this is a beautiful time in your hiring experience because you don't really have anything to attract anybody except crusaders. So you can get these crusaders on board. And, man, they're the ones that your band of brothers, your band of sisters, they'll go in the ditch with you and fight your way out. And, you know, they'll help you do everything. Before you got to set up chairs, we all set up chairs, and we got to put a screen up. We all put up a screen. If we got to lift boxes, we all lift boxes, and we're all in it together. And the good news is some people have joined your dream, and it's really an exciting time.
- [11:18]
B
And you're not alone, someone else cares. And I would say you probably would agree it is probably the most difficult and maybe the most fun time because you're just. You're working more hours than is reasonable. And any kind of win is just. It's like a team win you love. Seemed to me, Dave, at that stage here I hired, it seemed like two types of people. One is the type of person that was a crusader that bought in, gave their life to it, and they are still here. The other type was good for a season, but then in our case, the ministry, or in your case, the business kind of outgrew them. Is that true to you?
- [12:00]
A
Yeah. And I had a third type, too. I had a third type, someone I shouldn't have hired at all.
- [12:03]
B
Yes.
- [12:04]
A
It was just a bad idea. Everything about it was a bad idea. And you don't find that out till later. So you learn to. You learn to fix those mistakes as well. And you know, I was teaching Sunday school class and the guy raised his hand, said, prayer request, said, I'm looking for a job. Good news, I'm hiring. And he came to work for me. And come to find out I figured out why he's looking for work. He's a problem. You know, it's just because he's in Sunday school doesn't mean he's going to be a great team member.
- [12:31]
B
Right.
- [12:31]
A
So he's got the potential, but not a guarantee. But yeah. And you know, the, the, the treadmill stage that you said, it's exciting and it is, and it's rewarding. It is. It's the last time in the stages of building an organization that you're under the illusion that you are really important. After this, you start to figure out, I'm just one of the team and it all can get done without me. I'm really not, I'm really not the messiah. That job's already taken. And you know, I heard you and I shared talking to a group of pastors a while back, just, just a few weeks ago. And you were telling them that they're very important and yet they're not that.
- [13:13]
B
Important, not in the way you think you are. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. And so early stage. You're bringing people on at Ramsey Solutions. You guys have a pretty grueling hiring process. What have you learned that helps you to determine this is a viable candidate? This is a person that can grow with us? What do you look for in people now with your hiring process? How's it evolved?
- [13:37]
A
Their personal value system and their Commitment to our crusade is more important than their pedigree, their resume, their degrees, their actual talent. They can be very talented and have a crummy value system. They don't fit in with us and they cause problems. They can be very talented and have a good value system but not be excited about what we do. They're there just because they are bringing us their gifts and they don't fit in, they don't last. So they have to really. We obviously want talented people. We obviously want people who are knowledgeable and trained appropriately for the position they're going into. But too many people hire just on that. And we found it's much more important to find someone who's enthusiastic, fired up about what we're doing. They're going to charge the gates of hell with a water pistol. They're ready to go. Their game on spot love Gen Z. They're very missional and they will. The right ones of that bunch will get after it. They do it and we got half our team is Gen Z for that reason. They fit that and they've got to have the value system, which in our case is a biblical value system.
- [14:48]
B
It took me a while to figure this out, but in the early days I thought I needed to hire the best talent, the most experienced person and we could like teach the values along the way. But I found that it was actually better to hire someone that had the values, the heart, the drive, the mission. And maybe they were even a little bit less talented because it's really hard to teach values. Once you've got a person, Dave, and you say okay, this person, they will charge hell with a water pistol. They're fully bought on the mission. How do you onboard them so that they can really understand the culture, the values basically how do you indoctrinate them with the best of what matters.
- [15:27]
A
At Ramsey Solutions we spend three days on our onboarding. It's pretty intense actually and operating board members and senior leaders come into those meetings, teach, talk. Obviously the HR team facilitates it. But our goal is we have 14 core values. We want them to understand those and that those are all non negotiable. If you're a we, if you want to be part of us, we align to these core values are who we are and they're not aspirational, they're not who we wish we were. It's not a corporate brochure. This is who we is. And if you want to stay here, if you want to be a we and you want to succeed here, you know, understand these and plug into them. And we give examples and talk through that, and that's absolutely vital. And they always ask the question, what's it take to succeed here? And as you said, that's more important than you being the most talented, whatever, at your job. Because the truth is that the Dave Ramsey that started Ramsey Solutions almost 40 years ago might not even be able to get a job here now. You know, I mean, the Craig Groeschel that started Life Church is not the same guy that's sitting in front of me today. Obviously, he is the same guy. But we've, you and I, due to our passion, due to our drive for excellence, have grown and grown and read and gotten better at who we are. We're not the same men that we were then. And that's sanctification in Christ, for one thing. And our wives are both really glad that we're not the same guy that they married.
- [17:02]
B
Right. Well, this is super helpful. So you're starting, you're working your brains out. You found a few people, and you're gonna get off the treadmill. What is the next stage that we should look for in business and how do we attack it?
- [17:18]
A
It's the pathfinder stage. And now you've got a few people on your team. You don't really have a leadership structure yet, but you can delegate some of the actual production of the service, the good. Whatever it is you're in business or in the organization to do. You can delegate some of that. You don't have to be in a church situation in the pulpit every single Sunday. Now there's something to delegate. You don't have to be in every Sunday school class. You don't have to be the only source of information or decision making. And so we can start to delegate out some of the basic tasks, which is the first level of delegation to move up out of that. Now we got to start talking about putting some leadership levels in there. So I was at about 10 people when I did that, and we got to about 10, $15 million in revenue at that point. But we topped out real quick until I started putting in a level of leadership. I had a 1 to 10 reporting ratio, which is suicide. It's not sustainable. But you can get a lot more work done doing that than you can by yourself, for sure. So it's good. But we've got to start leveling up by starting to either raise some of those 10 up, those eight up, whatever they are, into a leadership role, which is my preference, or start bringing in someone from the outside. In my case, I started Raising them up from the inside.
- [18:35]
B
So at some point you're going to start creating some kind of structure, you're going to create some systems along the way in order for that to happen. It's been my kind of observation that a lot of times the founding leader, the entrepreneur, doesn't want to let go. He or she wants to keep a tight control on everything. They've got really high standards. What needs to change in the founding leader's mind to go from that treadmill place to the pathfinder place where you actually can start empowering other leaders?
- [19:08]
A
You know, the truth is, I don't find a lot of leaders at that stage that are actual micromanagers, that are egomaniacs. What I find is people that don't yet trust their team. And so if you can make sure, if you can build into your team a level of competence and a track record of integrity, it's easy to delegate. And most people will let go at that point. And so I can't let someone handle the finances at Ramsey, the accounting at Ramsey. I'm Dave Ramsey, for goodness sake. I can't let that not happen. Right. I can't turn it loose to them until I can trust their competency and their integrity. And even though I'm the money guy, I hate accounting. I don't want to do the accounting. I'm not a detail guy. And so I wanted to turn that loose, but I can't turn it loose.
- [20:00]
B
Sometimes you actually have to take a chance on them before you actually know. And you know, in a really fast growing organization, a lot of times you're building the plane when you're flying it and you're putting people in before they're 100% ready. And are they completely ready or not? Who knows?
- [20:16]
A
But I raised three kids. I did none of the three of them did I toss the keys to the car to MM without having taught them to drive first. And, you know, no texting hello. And no talking on the phone while you're driving. And if you're not gonna drive it right, you get to stay home. Okay, so you're, you know, I'm gonna delegate once you've proven to me, with me in the right hand seat and you and behind the wheel that you can drive this thing because I love you. I don't want you to kill yourself and I don't want you get me sued. Okay, so we're going to do this right? And so that's the way an entrepreneur or a pastor starting a church has got to look at this is my Baby, I'm handing over to you. And if you're not gonna rock the baby in a way that makes us all smile, including the baby, then we got a problem. So we've gotta get that level up. But you can train people to do almost anything that are willing, right?
- [21:07]
B
Yeah. And the key is, in many ways, we're trying to get people to think like founders, think like owners, not just like managers and employees. And you've done a really good job of that at Ramsey Solutions. What would you say is the difference? You could have someone that comes on and says, I'm really glad to work here, I'm going to coast and get my paycheck and like the benefits they offer. Or you can have someone that comes in and says, you know what, I am a part of this. I want to create value, I want to make a big difference. What do you do that leads people to perform like owners in the business rather than just like managers or employees?
- [21:42]
A
Well, it's one of our core values. We're all self employed here. And so treat the place like you own it, and that's a condition of further employment. We don't mean that as a threat with a stick. But it's one of the 14 things we tell you when you come on board and we tell you in the hiring process that the people here care deeply about the outcome. They care about the customer. This place exists for the people that are not inside these walls. We are blessed around here. We are blessed not for our own good, but to be a blessing as Father Abraham was. And so we're going to function in that way. And if you're not doing that, we're going to talk to you about it. We're going to have an uncomfortable conversation and you're going to treat this place like you own it. You're going to care deeply about it. So you're walking across the parking lot, there's a piece of trash, pick it up. That's what the owner would do. Now we don't need to hire more people in maintenance. You walked past it. A chair needs setting up. We set up the chair. That's what the owner would do. Dave Ramsey set up a bunch of chairs in his life. And I'm not above doing it right now. So what does it take to win? And we're all going to be about the, the business of doing that. It's who we are. And if you're not doing that around here, you don't fit in. You're not one of us.
- [22:56]
B
And then can you just be Real practical. Because sometimes I think I've talked to people who said, well, I told them that three years ago and they're not doing it. Oh, you got to talk about it all the time, all the time, buy all the time. Kind of give me an idea. What does that mean?
- [23:11]
A
Well, we talk about it in onboarding. It's on the walls around here. We talk about it in staff meeting. About once a year I go through, you know, a couple of the core values each. I did one three days ago at staff meeting, I spent 30 minutes going over the Be a crusader is one of our core values. And I went over it again and if you've been here 14 years, you've heard that a lot. You've heard me talk about we're crusaders. We're not, we're not J O B, we're not here. Thank God it's Friday. Oh God, it's Monday. If that's you, that means God's telling you you need to do something else with your life because we're here. I'm still here. I don't need to work financially. I'm here because this is my calling. It's my passion. It's what God gave me to do. I'm not going to stop doing it until they take me out of here feet first. And if you're not thinking that way, you don't fit in. And we just talk about that. That's the crusader one, you know, and the same thing's true with the personal or with the self employed one. Every time we give out a bonus check, we say this came from profits and profits happen. And everybody says it. When revenue goes up and when expenses go down, that's where profits come from. Remember, you're all self employed. That's how you got this bonus check. And we tie it back to everything we talk about until we're sick of talking about it and about that time they hear it.
- [24:23]
B
Yeah, and that's a great way to say it too because let's say someone doesn't know your organization read something to say, oh, they're not. Whatever, they do that to us too. They've never been walking down the halls and felt the vibe, the energy, the work ethic, the unity, the drive. I mean literally, it's tangible. And that doesn't ever happen by accident. You don't mention it. And what I always tell our team is, and you just said it, you have to talk about it until you feel like you've done it too much and then double it. Literally. You want to talk about the values until you feel like you've done it too much and then double it. Because what we value determines what we do. What we value determines how we behave. And so you're almost 40 years in to leading what is still a vibrant, passionate organization. And that's because you hire great people, you drive the values in and you do it over and over and over again. I want to learn a little bit more so we don't get hung up here. We could talk forever. But you're launching, it's difficult. You're trying to survive. You're on the treadmill, you find some people. You're not alone. You're starting to delegate. You're creating some systems, you've got some structure, you've got a couple of key leaders and things might start working. And you think, okay, we're gonna survive this. You go from the treadmill to the Pathfinder and tell me about the next stage that business leaders will take.
- [25:53]
A
Really, you end up in the Trailblazer. And that's where you've got a team of leaders but they haven't jailed yet. And now you're trying to get the ducks to line up. And we're spending a lot of time on values alignment, we're spending a lot of time on systems and processes, as you said there. And once you do all that, then you're going to level up and move into the, you know, the fun one, which is peak performer and peak performers, where it's all running like, I mean, it's cooking with gas now. Things are happening. The revenue's coming in. We're not worried about money. We can pay our bills. The people are right, everything's happening. And the only problem here is it's all working. And you can get, you can get, you can kind of start to believe your own press clippings if you're not careful and if you don't stay on it, if you don't continually shock it, shock the system, break it before it's broken, have a constant electrified demand for excellence. The Pathfinder stage can go away, you can lose that momentum that you build in there. But the Pathfinder stage is where you're harvesting big time. And you know, you're definitely, I mean, life Church is definitely in the Pathfinder stage and has been for several years. Without a doubt, organizationally we are. Ramsey's definitely in the Pathfinder stage, has been for several bit. And then that leads us to the last stage, which is the Legacy stage. And that's where we start talking about Legacy Builder stage. That's where we start talking about succession. I started working on succession and brand handoff when I was 48 years old. I'm 64, so that's 16 years ago we started. Okay, how are we going to hand off a brand where everything in the whole place is named Dave Ramsey something Boy, that's difficult.
- [27:32]
B
It is.
- [27:33]
A
How are we going to hand off this leadership culture that we have built together? And we had a great leadership team at that time. So I knew if I died right then, that leadership team could carry the company, but the brand would have died with me because there was no brand perpetuation at that point. And how are we going to train the next generation of owners to run the business? The Ramsey kids, so to speak? And so we began to train young Ramsey kids in their 20s. What, being an owner, what managing something from a stewardship perspective. This company's owned by God. You don't own it. Your job is to run it for him. His glory, his people. What's that look like? Yes, you get some of the benefits of being around and being leading it, but that's what's the ownership look like, what's the leadership look like? And then we begin the whole brand transfer process, which we're still not 100% done with, but we're very, very close. When I'm not here now, the ratings go up, so the brand's transferred pretty well. But I still have fun doing this, so I get to keep doing that part of it, but long term. I talked to a ministry kid the other day. He's not a kid. He's 55 years old. And if I mention the name, everyone on this would know the name of the ministry. The dad is in his 80s and they have no idea what's going to happen when the dad dies. So I can tell you what's going to happen. The ministry is going to evaporate because they've done zero succession planning, training, teaching. There's no clarity, there's no communication. There's not a good handoff set up. And that's where someone's control freaking. In ministry or in business, I run into a lot of entrepreneurs. Same thing. Dad is in his 80s, son is 65 years old and still doesn't run anything. Well, that's ridiculous. You know, all you're doing is guaranteeing the death of everything you've spent your life on, including your harm of your own children. And so it's bad.
- [29:30]
B
I've watched you do this. You've been doing it well, really strategic. And what's interesting is it Seems like you are every bit as important today as ever. But you are stepping back, stepping back. Your importance is almost a reflection of your strategic absence rather than your hands on control. And this is so difficult because you learned everything building this thing. You learned every lesson firsthand. First generation mistakes, opportunities, first generation wins. And now you're bringing people that are coming into a massive organization that is built, that is strong, that has momentum, and they didn't develop the same muscles. So does that matter? Do you need to teach them those lessons? Does it not matter? What are you trying to impart to them now to help them be successful moving forward?
- [30:26]
A
When I was in college, I was not a Christ follower and I was not a good guy. There's a lot of beer involved, a lot of fights involved, a lot of horrible behavior. My kids don't have to go through that to learn the importance of grace. If you're a drug addict, you don't. I mean, you don't have to have been to rehab to know that being a drug addict is a bad idea. And my kids don't have to have the same scars in business. My leadership team doesn't have to have the same scars in business that I have. That got me here. That's not necessary. What is necessary is that they have the muscle tone and the skeletal structure to carry what is here now. But they don't have to have that same past. As a matter of fact, I kind of wouldn't wish it on anybody. It's hard. The level of pain that you and I have been through in our journeys is real. To get to this point, you don't have to have that pain to know that something's bad and stay away from it, or to know that something's good and lean into it. And so thank goodness none of my kids acted the way I acted in their lives early. So they didn't have to learn that. They could learn that from my past, not their own past. So same thing here with a leadership team. They need the good parts of what I've learned along the way, but they don't have to have the same scars of what I've learned along the way to be able to be successful.
- [32:02]
B
And it's really a different skill set at this point because in many ways they're always going to be building, but they are. Managing something that's built and then building on something that's strong is entirely different than building something from nothing. So it's in many ways a different skill set. The book is Build a Business yous Love Mastering the five stages of business. I'd like to bring it a little bit to kind of current events. Dave, Entrez. Leadership. Your podcast is fantastic. You've done this for 40 years. And your ability to adapt through different presidents, economies, world tragedies, opportunities, high interest rate, low interest rate, all the different things you've got to be really, you got to be able to adapt. You got to be fluid, you got to be flexible. We're in a more complicated season for some businesses to start. We're coming out of COVID in some places. The work ethic is not what it used to be. Interest is high, inflation is high, or interest is higher, not high, comparatively. What does it take to be successful in business if someone's starting out or just facing the headwind today?
- [33:15]
A
You know, one of our benefits was that we decided we were not in a certain business. We're not in the publishing business, the events business, the radio business. We're in the business of trusted content. And once we say that simple thing, it becomes like a biblical principle, then. A biblical principle is timeless. It's like the law of gravity. I mean, law of gravity works in any economy. It works under Biden, it works under Trump. Law of gravity kicks in every single time. And there are biblical principles of leadership that are that way. Servant leadership as an example. And by servant leadership, it does not mean subservient. It means I love you. And I'm going to put, I'm going to take, you know, your best interest at heart in all of the decisions I'm making. But that may include you not working here anymore. And so that doesn't mean I don't love you, and it doesn't mean I don't care about you as a person. It means that this is not the right place in the right time anymore, for whatever reason. Lack of competence, misbehavior, whatever, that doesn't. That. That servant leadership. So anyway, the. Those things work in anything. The benefit we've had is we were platform agnostic, meaning we don't care what the methodology is. And, and it's the great success of your story as well, is all you cared about was getting the gospel out. You mean when you started, nobody could spell fiber? You know, I mean, when you started, there wasn't an app because there wasn't an Internet, and Bobby Grunewald was running around in short pants somewhere. You know, but I mean, but thank goodness that you said, okay, the gospel, you know, it works over fiber. I can deliver that. The gospel works with systems and processes. The gospel works with an app on the Internet, the world's large, one of the largest apps in the world. Now the gospel works. The gospel didn't change, but any new way we can find to deliver it makes me smile. And that's always been your motto. I've watched you do it. We've been friends a long, long time and it's the same thing with us. All we care about is getting the trusted content out, which is biblically based education and empowerment, which provides hope. And that's our mission statement. And so we're going to put out John Deloney in the relational space and it's biblically based education and empowerment. And we're going to put out money stuff in the money sector, which is what we're most known for. We're going to put out stuff in the leadership sector, we're going to put out stuff in the self improvement sector, but it's all going to be biblically based because that way whatever changes out there doesn't matter. The brick house always survives the storm and the straw house doesn't.
- [36:06]
B
So when we first met years ago, I don't think you talked with that kind of clarity about your business. When did you adopt that language and that focus? Was it early on? Was it later?
- [36:18]
A
You know, I knew the mission that we were on and the mission that we were on was to share God's principles to help people transform their lives so that we could talk to them about God. So we're ultimately an evangelistic organization. That's from day one that, that, that's the core mission statement and my personal mission statement. So that, that's always been there. But I think when I, when I would emotionally be completely distraught, destroyed, because we lost a radio station, they put on, they changed the format or they put on a worse, another talk radio person instead of me, which meant I couldn't minister to people in that neighborhood that I'd been ministering to. I think I've been on four stations in Oklahoma City now, you know, and I don't even know if I'm on there right now, but anyway. But I would get so distraught. So I mean, it would just destroy me because I was, because I cared so deeply about it. But then I realized, oh, I'm caring about the wrong thing. All I need to care about is can I get the message out? And if they're not going to let me do it that way, I just got to figure out another way to do it. We didn't start talk radio because we wanted to be in talk radio business. We Started talk radio because it was a way to get the message out. I'm not an author, you know, I mean, it's. But I write a lot of books because it's a great methodology to get it out there. And, you know, a lot of people tell you I'm not a great speaker, but I'm good. You know, I make a lot of noise while I'm up there and people hear me. So, you know, all that kind of stuff, it's just one of the methods. It's one of the ways of doing it.
- [37:54]
B
Yeah, so you say that almost like it's second nature. And it kind of is to you, but it's not to everyone. You started in radio and that was, you know, that was kind of like a. A primary form of communication. And today it's not. It's people, you know, that's not. Same with, you know, there was three TV stations when we were kids and there was. TVs changed. As we age, it's hard for us to stay current. And yet you still have the number one ranked business podcast today. How do you do that? How do you stay current and young? Is it people around you? Are you studying? Because a lot of leaders don't. A lot of leaders double down on radio when radio may phase out and they don't continue to evolve. How do you do that?
- [38:39]
A
Well, again, I had to go back and just decide, what business am I in? Am I in the radio business? No, I'm in the. I very quickly thought, if I'm in the radio business, I'm going to be upset all the time. If I'm in the publishing business, I'm going to be upset all the time because I'm dependent upon those lines of business then as my only methodology to live God's calling on my life. And if I can just stay panned to, back far enough and go, wait a minute, that's just one methodology. That's just. I'm platform agnostic. I don't care how we do it. So if we. If an app does it, fine. If, you know, if we need to be on Facebook and I mean, I'm on TikTok. How gross is that? You know, that's awful. I hate it. But we're huge on TikTok and so. And I personally detest it. But. But we're there because if we're not there, somebody's putting garbage on there, so we're taking up space for God.
- [39:33]
B
I just hope that everybody that follows you on TikTok is not listening to this podcast because it's okay.
- [39:38]
A
I mean, they. They love it. They. They know how I feel because I call it tic tac on the air because I'm a boomer. I make a bad boomer joke. Right? Dad joke. But, yeah, I mean, I don't know how you stay fresh other than to say, know what it is you're doing and be willing to do that any possible way, because the ways are going to change. When we started, there was no Internet. When we started, we had telephones on our desk. When we started, no one had a computer in the office. No one, including me. We didn't have any computers, you know. And so what? Well, this tool helps me do the thing better. So this tool's getting in the way. I need to change it.
- [40:16]
B
I think it's an important question. And again, massive respect. 40 years of scaling up and continuing to be top impact, and that's almost impossible. Almost no one does that. Tell me about the difference between spreading out and staying focused. Because you could do too many things and you could try to move your content everywhere. How does a business leader know when they're doing too much versus staying focused? Because I think if you'd said yes to everything, then you wouldn't be the best at anything. But yet you've said yes to a lot. Talk me through what that looks like.
- [40:52]
A
Well, the truth is, we've messed that up a lot.
- [40:56]
B
And all of us will. Right.
- [40:58]
A
The things that we have messed up, you don't know about us because they've been dead for 15 years. They didn't work. It's part of it, because we got far enough outside our lane that we got our head taken off. And it was a painful lesson to get back in your lane. And, you know, I mean, you can have opinions about a lot of things I. I don't do. I've got opinions about politics, but nobody cares. So I don't need to be doing politics on the Ramsey Show.
- [41:24]
B
I've actually seen a few people that care that didn't like your opinion. But that's.
- [41:28]
A
Well, they care one way or another. But, I mean, they give me a Dixie Chicks thing. Shut up and sing. You know, but the. But, you know, it's. But the truth is, that's not the business I'm in. I'm not Sean Hannity. I'm not Rush Limbaugh. And sometimes it's okay for me to sprinkle a little bit of that in there. It's part of being Dave, and I'm not afraid to say something about it. But when I spend an inordinate amount of time on something that's not the subject people came to me for. Then they don't. They're not going to stay. They're not going to stay plugged in and I lose my ability to influence them for Christ. And so I'll take that chance a little bit here and there and go over and do a few things. But generally I need to say, okay, this is what we're called to do. We're called to provide biblically based common sense education and empowerment which provides hope to everyone in every walk of life. If it doesn't do that, we don't need to be doing it.
- [42:22]
B
So very powerful. If it doesn't do that, we don't need to be doing it. Mission focus the book is Build a business. You love Mastering the five stages of Business. We will link to this in the Leader guide. You can go to ramseysolutions.com/ramseysolutions.com build and I assume the book is probably available just about anywhere you can get books. I'm going to ask you one more question in a moment, but I want to talk for just a minute, Dave, and I want to tell you kind of what I've observed because it is indescribably special to see a 40 year old business that it is in the process of moving toward legacy. Meaning like you have the leaders raised up, they are well trained, it's not done yet, but you're doing it. You continue to be on top, like one of the biggest, one of the best. And you have been from the time you started and you've evolved through all sorts of different markets. And I want to just tell our audience what I see as your friend. And then I want to ask you one final question. I got a team of people in here, several people, and when I walked in today, they said, well, we know the Ramsey team's going to be on this. And the reason they said that we do lots of podcasts. Not every team is on time on their game. Ready? We did together. Was it 2008 with the housing crisis, year 10? We had an idea. I think it was maybe your idea. What if we did? I think we called it a Night of Hope.
- [43:51]
A
Town hall for Hope.
- [43:52]
B
Town hall for Hope. And I think it was about eight weeks from the idea to conception, but we had an event that was broadcast from our church with you leading it to I think 6,000 churches, 6,000 churches that we put together in a matter of two or three months. And it was a leadership masterpiece that could not be duplicated. Our team worked with your team. We've done several events like that. We've been at events forever and ever. The level of excellence from your team is second to none. The work ethic, the drive, the passion, the values, the mission focus, the commitment. And none of that stuff happens by accident. It's years of being clear on your values. Lencioni would tell you 14 is too many values. I would agree with him. That's too many values, Dave. But we had a big argument about at dinner one night, you have 14 and it works for you. And it does. I mean like literally, if you believe in it and it's gonna work for you. And it does. And so I just want to compliment you on continuing to be focused on the mission, finding the right people, creating the right culture, driving the right systems, continuing to be relevant, continuing to innovate, continuing to build. And to be at this stage looking at legacy. It's admirable, it's worthy of praise and honor. And to do it with the Christ centered focus, it's just, it's really special. So I'm excited about the book. I'm excited for our audience to get it. Build a business you love. I'd love to close it out this way. Dave, could you imagine you're talking to, you're talking to my community now. We've got moms who are thinking about starting businesses. We've got someone who is at their first leadership job and hoping to get promoted. We've got people that are working somewhere that are going, maybe I could start a business one day. We've got the business owner that's starting out and is broke and scared to death. When someone is about to start a business, could you just talk to them? Kind of like a pastor would talk to a new Christian. And I would say, let me tell you what's coming, what to expect, and my best piece of advice for you, could you just talk to us from your heart? Someone who's gonna start a business, what should they expect? What's your best advice? And just take your time and speak to someone, tell us what's coming and give us your best few words of wisdom.
- [46:22]
A
I appreciate that and I appreciate your kind words. We feel the same way about you guys at Life Church and the team that you've built. We know when we're plugging in with you that it's always going to be excellence on the other side. So thank you for your words for our team. If you're out there and you're one of those people that Pastor Craig was just describing. The first thing is that you're in for the ride of your life. It's going to be gloriously fun. It's an adventure. It's also a roller coaster, which means there's going to be times of anticipation and times you're so scared you can't breathe. Ride it. Smile. Ride it. Don't pass out. Ride the roller coaster. Do it. And, and it's going to be harder than you think. And you're going to do things, you're going to learn things and become something that you're not now as you go along the journey. And that's going to be the beauty of the journey. You're going to become a better mom, a better dad, as you become a better leader, as you become a better business entrepreneur, because you're learning to serve, you're learning to love people well. And that's the ultimate ingredient in being a great family person and in being a great Christ follower. And so all of these things weave together in just a glorious tapestry. And it's harder, it's going to take longer than you think. It's harder than you think. And you're not the exception. Those are the three rules of business that everybody says, and they're true. The Calvary's not coming. No one's going to come along and buy you out and make this easy. As soon as they buy you out, you're going to be bored. So that's not the thing, you know, that doesn't make it. The friends of mine that sold their businesses for $400 million, they're bored 20 minutes later. It didn't do it for them. It wasn't what they were looking for. The thrill of the chase, the art of the deal, the journey is the joy. But it's going to be hard. And the hard is what makes it glorious and what makes it fun. And it's what makes the winning sweet. So just go with what Winston Churchill always said. Never quit, never quit, never quit.
- [48:28]
B
Very good advice. And Dave, thank you for your heart. The book is Build a Business, you Mastering the Five Stages of Business. I would just say to those of you who just heard what Dave said from a pastoral perspective, that building a business is very, very God honoring. And I want you to hear that from a pastor. Sometimes I think business owners feel like they can be like second class Christians because they're not doing, they're not preaching at a church or whatever. And in a business, if you are committed to your faith, you can reach people that will never walk into churches. And in Matthew 25, Jesus was pretty excited about people who took a little bit, invested it and multiplied it. And you're creating value. You're making a difference in people's lives. You're making jobs and creating a great business, I believe is absolutely, very, very God honoring. And so, Dave, I just want to say thank you. Congratulations on the book. It's going to help a lot of people. I want to tell the people in our community, you want to learn from the best out there. And so I promise you, you want to learn from Dave. Get the book. Build a Business. You love Mastering the five stages of Business, Dave. It's always fun, man.
- [49:35]
A
Appreciate you. Love you, brother.
- [49:37]
B
You didn't say anything. That was.
- [49:38]
A
Give Ms. Amy a hug for us.
- [49:39]
B
You didn't say anything over the line this time. I think it may be the first time. So maybe we should wrap it up while we're so good, right?
- [49:49]
A
It's early in the day.
- [49:50]
B
Hey. Hey. Thanks for years of friendship. Give Sharon our love. And to our community, thank you for being a part. The book is Build a Business. You love Mastering the Five Stages of Business. And guess what? You got better today, which is great news because we know that everyone wins when the leader gets better.