← Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast
Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast
Harvard Professor Reveals the Secret to Happiness in Leadership | Arthur Brooks
00:57:39
Ever wonder why driven leaders hit an invisible wall? In this episode, Arthur Brooks explains why high achievers burn out—and how to pivot toward greater impact by shifting your mindset, redefining success, and leading with wisdom that lasts.
Loading summary
Transcript164 lines
- [00:00]
Arthur C. Brooks
That leads to what we call success addiction. Their brains look like the brains of people who got addicted to drugs or alcohol. These are the people who become the success addicted individuals who go on to become workaholics. Workaholism is a secondary addiction to success addiction. People have to solve that. I have to practically send people to AA for that. But I look in the mirror as. Me too, man. Me too.
- [00:25]
Craig Groeschel
Hey, one of my favorite things about this podcast is to introduce people that I love and respect to you, because if they've changed my life, I know they could change your life. And today I want to introduce one of those people to you. He is a professor at the Harvard Business school. He's authored 13 books, one of them with Oprah. His book From Strength to Strength is a book that I recommend everyone read. I want to give away three copies of his book. They're signed copies. If you hop over to YouTube, you can type in the comment section, I want to grow stronger. And we'll draw three books to get detailed notes about our conversation today and more. Go to Life Church LeaderShipPodcast. Make sure you get the leader guide. It's super important. Get ready to take notes. It's my honor today to introduce to you someone who's helped change my life. Our guest today is Arthur C. Brooks. Arthur, man, it's great to have you on today.
- [01:22]
Arthur C. Brooks
Thank you, Craig. Great to be with you and in your headquarters, too.
- [01:25]
Craig Groeschel
We spent 10 minutes with me, wanted to call you Dr. Brooks, Professor. And I mean, you've insisted that I call you Arthur. And I'm just indescribably excited to have you on the podcast today.
- [01:40]
Arthur C. Brooks
Thank you. Me too.
- [01:42]
Craig Groeschel
We met at the Global Leadership Summit.
- [01:44]
Arthur C. Brooks
Yeah.
- [01:45]
Craig Groeschel
And your talk there was unbelievable. And I've told a lot of people that I read, or I probably should say, I listen to a lot of books. And every few years you'll come across a book that becomes special. And I can list five, six, seven books that have really shaped my life. And a few years ago, I came across your book From Strength to Strength, and I'll hold it up if anybody's watching. And this became one of those books.
- [02:14]
Arthur C. Brooks
Thank you.
- [02:14]
Craig Groeschel
That impacted my life in a very significant way, in a moment that I needed it. And so I want to say thank you for that. I love for you, Craig.
- [02:23]
Arthur C. Brooks
Appreciate it. No, I mean, it was a book that I wrote for myself, but ultimately, a lot of people are having this experience at a certain point in their life. They're real strivers. They're ambitious people. They're hard Workers, they've dedicated their careers to doing good for other people, but their skills and their interests change. And nobody actually gives information about how strivers are gonna change. We just think that everybody, if you've got it figured out, you gotta figure it out. And that's not the case. And so I wrote a book for myself to guide myself over the second half of my life and career, and it turns, was resonant with a lot of other high achieving, hardworking people like you. And that gives me a lot of satisfaction.
- [03:00]
Craig Groeschel
So I want to ask you more about that even as we get into the podcast, but just since we're talking about it now, when in your life did you start to discover that your effectiveness was changing? And the way you got to a higher impact was maybe different than earlier in life.
- [03:20]
Arthur C. Brooks
So I've had a bunch of different careers. So I had kind of an odd career when I was a kid. I was a classical musician. I actually didn't go to college traditionally. I went to college for a little while, didn't work out like so many other people. I went when I shouldn't have and didn't even make it through a year. So by the time I was 19, I was going pro as a classical musician. I wound up in Barcelona in the Barcelona Symphony as a French horn player. And that was a great career as far as it went. But then I changed. When I was 31 years old, I left, finished my bachelor's degree, did a PhD and became a behavioral scientist. That was 10 years of academia. And then I changed again and became a CEO. I started running a big think tank, big nonprofit research organization in Washington, D.C. and that was great. When I first went into that, in my 40s, my early 40s, I was doing it in a particular way. I was muscling through every problem. I felt like I could solve anything that was in front of me because I was at the height, it seemed to me, of my intellectual powers. And about five years into that, I started slowing down. I didn't know why. I mean, I had plenty of energy, I was staying in good shape. I tried to eat the right things, but I found that I couldn't solve problems as creatively as I had in the past. However, I found I was much better at coaching people that I'd been in the past. I didn't understand why that was. I started casting about, trying to figure it out, but my job was getting less and less interesting to me. I was less and less good at what I thought I was doing. And I retired from that at age 55. But I knew I had plenty left in the tank. So I dedicated myself to a research project to figure out what had happened to me and how I could dedicate the rest of my career to what I was really good at. And that's where this book came from. It came from a crisis and a burnout and a lack of a sense of meaning because my skills were changing. I felt like I was in decline. And what I found out was one set of skills were in decline, but there was another set of skills behind them that, once I recognized them, were the new source of power that anybody listening to us in their 50s and in their 60s and in their 70s, they can have their best possible version of themselves if they know what they're looking for.
- [05:18]
Craig Groeschel
So tell me about those two different sources of skills and intelligence.
- [05:22]
Arthur C. Brooks
Yeah, so that. And you use the word exactly right, which is intelligences. And this really comes from the work in the 1960s and 1970s, the work of Raymond Cattell, a great British social psycholog who was the world's leading expert in intelligence. Not just IQ measurement. That's not very interesting. It's the manifestation of intelligence that happens at different times in your life. What he showed was that people before about the age of 40, they have a lot of what's called fluid intelligence. That's working memory. That's the ability to focus problem solving, indefatigable focus on problems at hand. So if you're smart and hardworking, it makes you good at what you do on your own. If you're a lawyer, you've got a law school, and you're a star litigator, and it just. It makes you a ninja, a cowboy. And that's what almost everybody listening to us, because, you know, your listenership is strivers. Your people are. They're leaders and they're hard workers. So anybody under 40, they're great at what they do as an individual. That's fluid intelligence. Okay, that peaks at about age 39. Now, that's not very old.
- [06:22]
Craig Groeschel
Sounds like bad news.
- [06:24]
Arthur C. Brooks
It feels like bad news until you understand the whole story. So. And that starts to decline in the 40s. That's what explains burnout. People tend to burn out in their mid-40s because what used to be easy now is hard. What used to be hard now feels impossible. And you get tired of actually not making progress. Nobody else notices. If you're a high achiever, you're a hard worker, you're a great dentist, you're not going to drill the wrong tooth at age 43. But you're going to notice you're not making progress and things are not getting easier anymore. That's what makes people burn out. Strivers are made for progress is the whole point. And so people tend to think, well, I guess I just don't like it anymore. And they try to keep up with what they once were good at and what the young people still are. And it's very depressing for them. Now, here's the thing to understand that fluid intelligence does decline, but there's another kind of intelligence called crystallized intelligence that comes in behind it that rises astronomically through your 40s and 50s, stays high in your 60s, 70s, and 80s and beyond, if God gives you your marbles that long. Crystallized intelligence is not about innovation per se. It's not about working memory, thank God. I say it's 60 because it's not about indefatigable focus. It's about teaching ability, pattern recognition, coaching, and mentoring. That's where you get really, really good at.
- [07:38]
Craig Groeschel
Why?
- [07:38]
Arthur C. Brooks
Because you have a huge library in your head and you know how to use it. So people who are 60, they'll often say, it's weird. I see problems now as a CEO and I've never seen them before, but I know how to solve them. The reason is because you're triangulating across all different kinds of stuff. So you're chief executive. You're running an organization for a really long time at this age. In your 50s, you're way, way, way better at solving problems you've never seen than you would have been in your 30s. You'll be faster at doing things you know how to do. In your 30s, you'll be better at doing things you've never seen in your 50s, because one is fluid, the other is crystallized intelligence. So be the innovator when you're 30, be the instructor when you're 60, be the star litigator when you're 30, be the managing partner of your law firm at 60. That's a teaching role. Go from being the startup entrepreneur at 31 to being the venture capitalist at 59, where you're looking at the next big thing. And as a CEO, you, for example, or the leaders who are listening to us, go from the autonomous leader who solves the problems to being the teaching leader who finds the next generation of talent as you get older. And you'll be happier, more successful, and better at what you do.
- [08:43]
Craig Groeschel
So I want to kind of even make it personal. So I was 28 when we started Life Church. I was the first and Only employee for a little while. Fast forward to today. Next year will cross 30 years and I'm 57, will be 58. Now we have over 1,000 employees. And in the early years I was a bigger risk taker, more innovative, breaking lots of rules. And I still have the same drive and kind of competitive spirit with what I would say would be the right motives for what we're doing. But I do think in a different way, should I be investing in the 28 year old entrepreneurs? Should I? Tell me, how do I become most effective at this stage? Now that we've got a mature organization, what's my assignment?
- [09:39]
Arthur C. Brooks
So there's two things embedded in that. Number one is making sure that you're firmly on your crystallized intelligence curve and that you're cultivating people who are on their fluid.
- [09:48]
Craig Groeschel
Okay, so what does it mean? I'm firmly.
- [09:50]
Arthur C. Brooks
You're a teacher. You're a teacher. You're gonna bring people along, you're gonna mentor, you're gonna coach, you're gonna recognize patterns, you're gonna help people understand things that they don't because they can't see the things.
- [09:59]
Craig Groeschel
At what age are we making this shift?
- [10:01]
Arthur C. Brooks
That shift should be progressive throughout your 40s. So you're still high in fluid intelligence, but you're getting higher in crystallized intelligence. Those curves typically cross between the ages of 43 and 46. And so during your 40s, you want to start stepping from one curve to another. Changing your own role or even changing jobs is the way that you do that. Women are really good at that, by the way.
- [10:19]
Craig Groeschel
So for me, there was a metaphor. I went from being what I said was kind of like a big brother to a father, or I went from being a co player to a coach. And so that's kind of what perfect.
- [10:30]
Arthur C. Brooks
You're doing it perfectly. That's great. Not everybody has the opportunity to do so because they don't have an organization that matures in such a way where the ideal leader starts off being a cowboy and winds up being a coach. That's not typically.
- [10:42]
Craig Groeschel
But if you try to stay a cowboy, you probably.
- [10:44]
Arthur C. Brooks
It's going to be a problem.
- [10:45]
Craig Groeschel
Yes, yes. And so it just dawned on me as you were saying this, you used the word burnout a couple times. And we do see people in their 40s tend to sometimes make dumb decisions. Is that a part of it?
- [10:57]
Arthur C. Brooks
That's totally. That's it. I mean, business schools, I teach at a business school and we've done tons of research on burnout. And I was like, it's all about work, life, balance, nonsense. It's about changing the intelligence curves and trying to stay on the wrong curve. If you keep doing what you used to do and you're getting worse at it, you're going to get very depressed, you're going to get very bored, you're going to get really frustrated, you're going to start taking stupid risks possibly. And it actually might metastasize into bad decisions in your personal life. That's what you know, that's the midlife crush crisis has everything to do with changing curves, as a matter of fact. So if you understand it, get on the right curve, the world's your oyster.
- [11:32]
Craig Groeschel
So to me this is not natural. Because someone who's really good at 37, then they turn 43, they tend to think, well, I still should be good at what I'm doing. And so to me it's a little bit like Arthur. If you ever go to a hotel and you push the button for the elevator to come and it doesn't quite come, you push the button harder. And so that's kind of what I was doing in my early 40s is like I was trying to, okay, I'm going to do what I did. I'm just going to do it harder and maybe better. And it wasn't better. I was declining and confused by it.
- [12:03]
Arthur C. Brooks
And that's when guys and women get depressed. That's when they become really anxious. That's when it starts hurting their personal relationships an awful lot. Men in particular, they start lashing out in all sorts of ways. This can lead to addiction problems because you're uncomfortable with who you are as a person, you feel less of who you are. It's kind of a death threat, especially for hard charging survivors. Look, a big problem that people have who've been very successful as entrepreneurs like you and a lot of people listening to us is your identity comes from your success. And when you're not feeling that success anymore, that's a death fear. Why? Because death fears are really an attack on your self understanding. I mean, I'm sure you're not afraid of physically dying. I'm not either. I'm a Christian. I'm not afraid of dying. What I am afraid of is losing who I see myself as. That's a really, that's a very dangerous situation that people get in. And I have a whole set of exercises that I go through with leaders who have self objectified to the point where they're nothing more than a representation of themselves. I'm a success machine, right? I have to walk people out of that all the time. But that's key for us to understand that that's going to change. How you succeed is going to change. If you try to keep on, keep stuck on the old one, you're going.
- [13:10]
Craig Groeschel
To be in trouble. So what you just said, I think is the key how you succeed is going to change. And the problem is we don't really want that to change. I think for me, my identity was wrongly and naturally sometimes wrapped up into what I produce.
- [13:27]
Arthur C. Brooks
And so tell me a couple things about it. So were you a good student as a kid?
- [13:32]
Craig Groeschel
I was.
- [13:33]
Arthur C. Brooks
Were you a good athlete as a kid?
- [13:34]
Craig Groeschel
I was.
- [13:36]
Arthur C. Brooks
Did you get a lot of strokes from your parents and people around adults around you for being successful in school and sports?
- [13:40]
Craig Groeschel
I did. And not the smartest, not the best, but just would work hard for it.
- [13:44]
Arthur C. Brooks
Yeah. You're a grinder.
- [13:45]
Craig Groeschel
Then the identity would come from that.
- [13:48]
Arthur C. Brooks
And plenty smart, Craig, trust me, plenty smart. And you're still obviously really not the.
- [13:53]
Craig Groeschel
Smartest, but would work really hard and a good grinder.
- [13:55]
Arthur C. Brooks
And so the result of it is that what happens is the kids are looking for a reward and a psychological reward. And psychological rewards are everything. Pleasure actually comes from touching the parts of the limbic system that are the reward centers. The ventral tegmental area of the brain, the ventral striatum of the brain. You tap it when somebody says I love you or if you take a bump of cocaine. It's the same part of the brain. The brain is very thrifty. And the way that a lot of kids get it is like, that's a Craig. You're a very special little boy for that really wonderful report card or getting the MVP truck trophy from your little league team. And your brain literally will physiologically accustom itself. It will wire itself to look for those rewards of being number one and being successful. That leads to what we call success addiction. Success addiction means for people who've done that from a very young age, their brains look like the brains of people who got addicted to drugs or alcohol before adolescence. In other words, their brains are going to be very plastic, but they will accustom themselves to this kind of reward. And what will happen is that people, these are the people who become the success addicted individuals who, who go on to become workaholics. Workaholism is a secondary addiction to success addiction. These people are hugely self objectifying. I am a success machine. I am afraid of failure. I am nothing. And life feels gray when I'm not winning, is what that turned and that's a. That's. I mean, you've got to solve that. People have to solve that. I have to practically send people to AA for that. But I look in the mirror, it's me too, man. Me too. I mean, ever since I was a little kid, it's like, number one, gotta be number one. I'm nothing if I'm not lovable. If I'm not, I'm not. I'm not enough if I'm not that. And that's a sickness, actually.
- [15:38]
Craig Groeschel
So I would imagine right now that there are a lot of people listening. And, you know, our community is made up of people that tend to be strivers. And you start to get your identity from that. How do you unwind that without losing kind of your drive, your competitive edge? What do you. What do you say to yourself? How do you redefine what makes you successful in a way that will sustain success in new ways for maybe generations to come?
- [16:10]
Arthur C. Brooks
It's a great question. And I say this to my students at hbs. I mean, these are MBA students at the Harvard Business School. These are people who want to grow up and be Craig. These are people who want to grow up and have your level of success, not necessarily at Life Church, but at. At Goldman Sachs or something, or starting their own companies. And I'll tell them this. The secret is not to be successful so you become happy. It's to become happier so you're successful enough.
- [16:34]
Craig Groeschel
Okay, you gotta slow it down. Say that again because people are listening on 1.5 speed. I'm gonna tell you right now, slow it down, because this is Dr. Arthur C. Brooks talking to you, and this is good. So slow it down. And let's let this sink in.
- [16:47]
Arthur C. Brooks
So the world tells you, and your limbic system of your brain is evolved to tell you that if you are successful enough in worldly terms, and that has four components to it. Money, power, pleasure, and fame or admiration. If you have enough success, you'll automatically be happy. That's a lie. That's completely false. The truth is that if you do the work to become a happier person, then you will find that you're successful enough. Now, the word that freaks every striver out who's listening to us right now, you know what it is, because it's going to chill up your spine.
- [17:20]
Craig Groeschel
Just say it out loud.
- [17:21]
Arthur C. Brooks
I know, I know. That's okay. Enough. And the. The reason is because there's never enough for a striver. There's never enough for a striver. Okay, good news. If I can help strivers stop actually torturing themselves. They will not become slackers. Why? Because drivers can't slack. It can't be done. No, I'm not going to throw a dart into the population and give the same piece of advice to everybody. You know, if you're sitting in your mom's basement, you can't get yourself to even get up and go to work. And I think I'm just going to play video games all day long. This advice is not for you. Well, guess what? You're not listening to this podcast if that's you. This is like the 250,000 of Craig's closest friends listening to this this week are people who want to be like you, and they're hard workers. And there's nothing I can tell you that's not going to make you a striver. So in other words, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to take this advice because you're still going to be really successful, you're going to be still really, really hard worker. But you have to actually divide up the things that you're great at and not just over index on work. Here's the thing. The happiest people have a portfolio of four things that they're thinking about in their lives, and only one of them is work. One is faith, the second is family, the third is friendship, and the last one is work. But if you put all of the eggs in the last basket of work to all my excellence is going to go into work.
- [18:37]
Craig Groeschel
A lot of strivers do, of course.
- [18:39]
Arthur C. Brooks
Because that's what they're good at and that's what the world look, if you're a success addicted workaholic, the world is going to say, good job. You worked 16 hours a day and got that project done. Nobody's going to say, you polished off three pints of vodka last night. You're a really excellent drinker. No, no. They're gonna say, you're a pathetic alcoholic, go help. But if you do the same thing as a workaholic, people are going to congratulate you. That's the way the world actually works. I get it, is the whole point. But the truth of the matter is you will not be a happy person. You just won't. Part of the reason, because you'll be mediocre in your faith, you'll be mediocre in your relationships, including your marriage and with your children, you'll be a mediocre friend. And those love relationships are everything. And so one of the things I do with people who are true strivers, they're going to strive. They'll be perfectly fine in their jobs. And I want them to work hard in their jobs, but I need to actually have them start getting better at their faith. Do the work, man. Do the work. And it's thrilling work to do the work in your faith. It's like this huge, exciting thing. Are you good? Really? I mean, do you know anything about the Bible? Do you know anything about the Holy book? It's like, get good at it, but start putting some of the energy in that. Start getting good at your marriage. That takes work and it takes expertise. It takes knowledge. Get better at friendship. And I have all the resources where people can become really great at those things and start. Become better at your leisure. I mean, leisure is not chilling. Leisure is serious business. Leisure is actually getting good at parts of your life that just don't happen to give you money that you already don't need anyway, probably.
- [20:11]
Craig Groeschel
So let me repeat back some of what I've heard you say and then kind of critique what I'm saying, because it sounds like what you're saying. And if anybody missed it in the introduction, you are kind of an expert in the science of happiness, one of many fields.
- [20:25]
Arthur C. Brooks
I'm a behavioral scientist. 30% of what I teach is neuroscience. 70% of what I teach is behavioral science.
- [20:31]
Craig Groeschel
Behavioral science. And you study what makes people happy. And you said what makes people happy is going to be a genuine investment in faith. These four things. Faith in family, in friends, and then in work.
- [20:43]
Arthur C. Brooks
And I don't mean my faith necessarily. I'm a Christian guy. Most important thing in my life, but.
- [20:48]
Craig Groeschel
A life faith in something more, but.
- [20:49]
Arthur C. Brooks
A life philosophy that elevates things to transcends you so that you have an understanding and appreciation of everything is bigger than you.
- [20:59]
Craig Groeschel
And so most people that we're talking to are strivers. And so they're going to be in some form either succeeding in work or trying to succeed in work. And you said something earlier about being successful enough, which even when you said the word enough, it kind of.
- [21:13]
Arthur C. Brooks
I know, it's that challenge.
- [21:14]
Craig Groeschel
It's hard to hear. And so what are you saying? That to be happy and to be fulfilled in the first three areas, there has to be an enough on the successful part of work.
- [21:27]
Arthur C. Brooks
So the point is that high levels of success are enough. That's the whole point. And you have to figure out what enough is. But what enough is will change when you become a happy person. That's the thing where you need a little bit of a leap of faith. If you're an unhappy person. Enough is never enough. There's no enough. There's no enough ever. But if you're a happy person, you'll know when you can actually stop doing one thing and spend more time doing something else.
- [21:51]
Craig Groeschel
So we've got some people right now that are very successful in business and ministry professionally. And they are not happy. What do you say to them?
- [21:59]
Arthur C. Brooks
They're stuck on the hedonic treadmill of never enough. That's what's going on. And part of the reason is because this Mother nature, she lies. She's such a pathological liar. She says that you'll be happy if you give in to every whimsical. If it feels good, do it. You live that kind of mentality. And if you actually work and work and work and work and work yourself to death so you have more flints in your cave and animal skins and buffalo jerky than any caveman could ever need, that's a lie. And the reason that she wants you to think that is so that you will stay in the hunt, you'll rise in the hierarchy, that you'll survive the winter and you'll pass on your genes. That's all she cares about. But that's not all you care about. Because we're not just physical creatures, we're also metaphysical creatures. We have divine in us. And to actually instantiate the divine in each one of us, we actually have to transcend our worldly urges. What people need to understand is that never enough, never enough, never enough. All that is is just like a squirrel or a monkey or something that doesn't have a metaphysical nature to it. We're just living according to our animal dictates. Under those circumstances, that's like somebody who just uses methamphetamine or drinks pathologically. That's the same kind of set of urges. You need a higher set of desires. And that's what I urge people to do, is to explore the metaphysics of their true human person. They will still be great at their jobs. They'll be better at their jobs. By the way, I've worked with people and I scaled them back from 100 hours a week to 60 hours a week. And they got more done.
- [23:27]
Craig Groeschel
Yes, 100%, I believe that. And maybe you can. I've been trying to diagnose and kind of digest why this advice worked for me. I worked with a performance psychologist, but he works with people way more exceptional than I am in kind of top level performers. And he took me on as his first pastor. He worked with and now he helps a lot of pastors, but I was early 50s, 50ish, and maybe early stages of burnout. Actually, he did say occupationally burned out and his assignment to me, and I want you to try to help me understand why this worked. And so maybe it'll help other people. He said, hey, I want you to come up with a list of 30 things that are high adrenaline, that sound dangerous to you? And I want you to try five of them. I could only come up with five. I tried two and I only tried two, and I stayed with those two.
- [24:23]
Arthur C. Brooks
What'd you do?
- [24:23]
Craig Groeschel
And one of them is I took up jiu jitsu, which was, and looking at it, it was something that gave me an outlet to be aggressive, you know, and I was not great at it, and I was a student and it humbled me. And so my confidence went up and my humility, all at the same time. And then I started taking flying lessons and ended up becoming a pilot, then an instrument rated pilot, then a type rated pilot and such. And those things disconnected my mind. And yet they made me a better leader, a better pastor. And I look back and I'm not quite sure why, but I know it worked. Can you kind of of unpack? Why did that help me so much?
- [25:04]
Arthur C. Brooks
Well, cross training is incredibly important. And there's a whole literature that talks about the importance of doing things you're bad at, believe it or not. And part of it is because it does bolster both confidence, humility, exactly what you say. And humility is a heavenly virtue, right? I mean, it's the way that you combat pride, which is the deadliest of the deadly sins, as a matter of fact. But also it gives you confidence because you actually can learn new things and you're not monomaniacal about the one thing that you're doing. A lot of people that are burned out or they're finding that they're less effective and they're actually kind of bored, but they keep after the thing they're bored at because they're prideful. And so you need to humble yourself by doing something you're not as good at, and then gain confidence that you can actually learn those particular skills. That's functional cross training. It doesn't mean you have to do something that builds muscles, literally physical muscles in one area as opposed to another. It means you need to use your brain in a different way to become a student to do something that seems like you don't know how to do it. And as such, when you go back to the thing that you were Trained in, it becomes easier and fresher and better. So there's a huge literature that shows.
- [26:06]
Craig Groeschel
That my mind seems clearer when I come back. And I think also now being a student makes me a better teacher, meaning because I am 100% the student in these areas. Do you have something in your life right now that's kind of like that?
- [26:19]
Arthur C. Brooks
Yeah. So I have been actually paying a lot more attention. My wife and I have a lot more of spending a lot more time studying the Bible than we have in the past. I mean, I'm a Christian my whole life.
- [26:29]
Craig Groeschel
Now you're a Harvard professor?
- [26:30]
Arthur C. Brooks
Yeah, yeah.
- [26:31]
Craig Groeschel
And you're studying the Bible? Yeah. Okay.
- [26:33]
Arthur C. Brooks
And my wife is actually a student, actually finishing her master's degree right now, but does a lot of speaking for Christian women's groups. That's a lot of what she does. She does a lot of outreach and she's starting a radio show on Guadalupe Radio, which is a big Catholic, Spanish speaking, Catholic radio network. And so she knows a lot more than I do and she's been a real teacher to me. But what I found is that, you know, I've got a good student brain. I mean, I know how to learn a lot of stuff. But this is really different than the science I'm used to. Yes, very different. As a result of it that I see things in new ways. I see the parallels that I haven't seen before. So intellectually, I find that this is a kind of cross training that's really, really useful. Second is I'm a gym rat. I'm an absolute gym rat. And I'm always looking for new ways to get an edge for physical fitness. I'm always learning about new ways to, you know, how physical fitness and optimal health can actually cross train into intellectual prowess. One of the things I talk about with my students who are my PhD students.
- [27:33]
Craig Groeschel
Say that again. How you can. How physical.
- [27:35]
Arthur C. Brooks
How physical fitness can actually enhance intellectual prowess.
- [27:38]
Craig Groeschel
Yes, and tell me about that, because in first thing you know, you walked in today. Last time I saw you weren't wearing a short sleeve shirt. Today. The dude's ripped. Okay? You're 60 and you're ripped. And I respect that. You're on the road 48 weeks a year, traveling and somehow stay in fantastic shape. And so I've had this kind of theory and I'm not nearly as smart as you, but to me, and it doesn't have to be.
- [27:59]
Arthur C. Brooks
I know, man.
- [28:00]
Craig Groeschel
It doesn't have to be working out. And like, I'm not telling anybody. Go fly planes. Do gjc. Workout. That's not the message, but there is a. When there's a something like that, it does help you think with clarity. And tell me about the physical part, why would that help you think?
- [28:16]
Arthur C. Brooks
Well, your brain is part of your body and your body needs to be able to support your cognitive activity. It really, really does. A big mistake that people make is not taking care of their bodies because by the time they're our age they're going to be in cognitive decline. Guarantee that if you're out of shape, you're going to be in cognitive decline by the time you're 60 years old. You just are is the whole point. If you're in great physical shape, you have good cardiovascular health, you have good muscle mass, you're not suffering from sarcopenia, which is the gradual loss of muscle mass after the age of 40 or 50, you're going to be in better cognitive health.
- [28:49]
Craig Groeschel
Health.
- [28:49]
Arthur C. Brooks
You're going to be able to think more clearly, you're going to be clearer in your problem solving ability and your crystallized intelligence is going to be optimal because you're taking care of the machine is what it comes down to. So I recommend that everybody our age should be in the gym every day and should be getting at least four or five days a week of zone two cardio. And there is not a, especially men, but women too, nobody under 40 who should not be doing resistance training. It's just. And again, that's just because don't start then you're. It's a problem. It's a huge problem. And I'm not talking about vanity because, man, I mean, I'm like, if I'm worrying about vanity, well, that ship has sailed, man. I'm like an old bald guy. But let me tell you, this has been probably the most important part of my intellectual life is my physical health and what I've been able to do to keep my physical fitness up. Because now I feel like I'm at the height of my crystallized intelligence powers in no small part because the body supports the brain. I get up at 4:30 every day. I work out from 4:45 to 5:45. And every day is a mixture of zone two cardio and resistance training. And I have a lot of training at this point. I have a gym in my house and I don't actually have to have a trainer with me because nobody's going to come to my house at 4:45. And then I get cleaned up and I go to Mass. I'm a Catholic, I go to Catholic mass every day at 6:30 in the morning. And if I'm on the road, I find a Mass at 6:30 or 7 or 7:30 and I go to the gym at the hotel where I am. These things, these things are. I just don't violate these things because this is body and soul. Body and soul, Body and soul. This is before I have any calories, before I have any caffeine. Psychostimulants should not be administered when you're doing resistance training early in the morning, for example. It'll torque the whole system. It's not as good. And then I get four straight hours of maximal dopamine in my prefrontal cortex, which is what I need for tip top cognitive skill. And it's all tied together. That's what it comes down to. There's no magic to this. It's just doing the work.
- [30:45]
Craig Groeschel
And it is, it's doing the work. It's being focused. Everyone's plan should not be consistent, but everyone should have a plan to bring about optimal results. I wanna talk a little about Harvard on two levels. One is you have a massive waiting list of people trying to get into your classes. I've heard about like there's illegal kind of online streams that are supposed to be there.
- [31:13]
Arthur C. Brooks
I know, I know nothing.
- [31:14]
Craig Groeschel
Yeah. So without being overly humble, can you tell me like, why? What do you do that creates lines of the best of the brightest in the world wanting to be in your classes?
- [31:27]
Arthur C. Brooks
So it's happiness. It's the milk, not the milkman. And that's a really important thing to keep in mind. And I know you feel the same way.
- [31:34]
Craig Groeschel
I disagree. It's like, it's not the message because anybody can teach on happiness. So there's more to it than that.
- [31:40]
Arthur C. Brooks
Well, what it is is that the approach to happiness is a little bit, is a little bit distinct from. This is not advice on how to have a good. This is real science about how to live better, how to live, how to put one foot in front of the other in the world and how to manage yourself such that you can live a better life. Higher well being with more meaning, satisfaction and enjoyment of your life. And it's all based on straight up science is the way that that works. That's the milk. Now I have a method of teaching it that's turned out, has honed over a bunch of years that it turns out to have been very successful at Harvard and lecturing. I'm in Oklahoma City today with you because I'm giving a couple of lectures on the science too. But that's what I'm doing out and about is the whole idea. And I'm teaching it to dozens and dozens of other academics so they can teach a version of the course. And lots of people can teach this. But the whole point is, what I feel I've been blessed to find and to uncover, and I've been in a privileged position to be able to develop, is that real science unlocks greater happiness for people. To become a happier person, you need to do three things. And this is what I teach in my class. And this is the reason the students like it. You need to understand how it works. Stop trying to get feelings. No, no, no. Understand and manage yourself. Second, change your habits. Third, share it with others and become the teacher. That's how you do it. That's how you do anything. By the way, my dad was a math professor. A brilliant, wonderful math professor. It was because he understood the math. He practiced the math, he taught the math. That's how he did it.
- [33:06]
Craig Groeschel
Okay, so let me say what you're not saying, because you're telling me it's the milk and the whatever. So. So number one, it's gotta be something that's interesting and people are interested in being happy. Two is you're doing the research behind it. You're coming in and saying, here's what data says, here's what the science says. And so you're bringing valuable content. Then there's the you part. And that's the third ingredient, which is the what you bring. That it's passion, it's application, it's whole life buy in. It is the hard work behind the scenes. Tell me about the you part that I wouldn't necessarily know unless we had hours together. What's the unique you part that people don't see that brings the final ingredient that makes people all over the world want to listen to you?
- [33:57]
Arthur C. Brooks
So this is the ingredient that every single person watching us or listening to us can get in their work. And this is, I dare say, the secret to your success too. You love it and you love them. Okay, do you love the Lord and the Bible? And you love every single person who's online watching and everybody's sitting in the.
- [34:18]
Craig Groeschel
Seats in your congregation now, I can buy that. Let's talk about it. Because you do. And there are some people who, they actually love the attention, not the people.
- [34:27]
Arthur C. Brooks
That's because they love me.
- [34:29]
Craig Groeschel
Yes, exactly. And so. Okay, so that makes some sense. So you love the work, the subject, the work, the discipline that goes into it. It's a life obsession for you. And you love the students you care about students.
- [34:44]
Arthur C. Brooks
I love the people that I'm trying to serve. You know, there's this. Howard Thurston was this great magician from the 1920s, and he's profiled and how to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie, by the way. That sounds like a hackneyed book. It's a great book.
- [34:57]
Craig Groeschel
It is a great book.
- [34:58]
Arthur C. Brooks
It's a great book.
- [34:59]
Craig Groeschel
One of the books I had my.
- [35:00]
Arthur C. Brooks
Kids read, 1936, it says, Fred Fresh today, as it was almost 100 years ago. And he tells the story of Howard Thurston. And he goes to see Howard Thurston to see his secret to success. He's a very ordinary magician, pulling rabbits out of hats, doing card tricks. He's the most successful magician in the world for 40 years. He has this Broadway act, and people come into night after night after night. Afterward, he said, I understood Howard Thurston's the secret to his success. And he said, you love what you're doing and you love them. How do you do that? And he says, oh, it's easy. Every night before I hit the footlights on the stage, I stand out there and I can see the audience. They can't stand, they can't see me. And I say, I love my audience. I love my audience. I take it one step further. I pray for my students every day before I start the class. I say, lord, bless them, open their hearts, help them to be happier people. Help them to bring these ideas to other people. And it's just. It's joy. It's a joy.
- [35:54]
Craig Groeschel
So I call that in leadership. I call it you focused leadership. And it's really simple. But most of the time, we approach leadership with a medium focus. Like, hey, come serve my vision. Hey, come help me get this done. You know, I'll pay you. But when. When you really care about people, and that's the thing. Sometimes I get emotional at the end of this podcast because I'll just, you know, maybe look into the camera or stare into the microphone and say, you know, like, I do this because I care about you, and I want you to know that and feel it and believe it. And I do. It's like, there's no, you know, we're not selling ads. I mean, it's just like, genuinely. I genuinely believe that great leadership changes lives. And so it becomes. It's like a full body sport. It's a full body obsession, and it's a complete experience.
- [36:38]
Arthur C. Brooks
Look, I mean, it's like, can you imagine showing up to work every day and Being a leader because you want more stuff from people. I mean, what a drag. What a drag. How boring, right? And yet that's how a lot of people learn the craft of leadership is how I can be a better leader, how I can be a more successful person. And that's the wrong focus.
- [36:58]
Craig Groeschel
So seeing that your success, and it is, is truly extraordinary, the impact that you're having all over the world. You're on the road 48 weeks a year and you're teaching out of a base and so you got an interesting subject, you're doing the work, you're bringing the science behind it, and it's a full on passion for you. Here's what's also mind blowing to me is that you are in a secular environment that is often hostile to things of faith, especially Christian faith. And you're a Christian. And the purpose of this podcast is to develop leaders. It's not to push our religious beliefs on anybody. But we do have a lot of people of faith that are in positions of influence that don't know how to do it. Well, how in the world, in an environment where people are anti God, especially anti Christian God, how do you both professionally successful, not offensive, and an effective witness in such a profound way.
- [38:07]
Arthur C. Brooks
The key is not being afraid is what it comes down to. And if you're not afraid, then you can make it natural, normal. I mean, part of the problem is that a lot of Christians, and I understand this, I get why this happens, but a lot of Christians in public life, they make it weird. And the reason is because they're afraid. They're afraid, so they make kind of a show of it, right? It's like eh, or they're a little hostile. You know, when you're afraid, by the way, you'll be hostile, you'll be hostile to other people. And even if you're not trying to be, people will know it. We have a hundred different ways of ascertaining what other people are thinking about us all the time.
- [38:41]
Craig Groeschel
It's interesting, I've never thought of it that way, but if Christians can be hateful or critical, maybe it's because they're afraid.
- [38:47]
Arthur C. Brooks
Oh, it's always that, you know, hate is downstream from fear. Perfect love drives out fear, according to St. John the Apostle and Lao Tzu, who wrote the Tao Te Ching of the greatest Confucian text. I mean, it's like in every religious and philosophical tradition we know that fear and love are opposites. Love and hate are not opposites. On the contrary, hate is simply a manifestation of fear. And so one of the reasons that Christians in public life, they struggle so much is because they're afraid. They're afraid of being weird. They're afraid of being rejected. They're afraid they won't be able to be able to defend their beliefs. And if you can get away from fear, you won't be perceived as being hateful. You won't be perceived as being hostile. And how do you get away from that? With love. Because perfect love drives out fear.
- [39:32]
Craig Groeschel
So I've been in the church for a long time, and I've never thought about it the way you're saying it right now, that one of the reasons why, as I'm kind of tracking with you, we can be judgmental. Like, we're afraid totally. Which is so crazy because. And that's the sad thing is that's why people of faith often push others away. And what do we have to be afraid of? You know? And, you know, so I'm like, you shouldn't go there and be with those people. I go, well, no.
- [40:02]
Arthur C. Brooks
What do you think they're gonna do? You think they're gonna do? You know, it's like, yeah, you've been.
- [40:05]
Craig Groeschel
Around a bunch of eight.
- [40:06]
Arthur C. Brooks
Gonna shake your faith and turn you into an atheist. Yes, for Pete's sake. No. That's craziness. On the contrary, this. It's. Life is this great big. It's like walking through an Egyptian bazaar of shiny, fun, interesting things is the whole point. And, you know, I spent a lot of time over the past 12 years with the Dalai Lama, you know, the most important Buddhist in the world, the leader of the Tibetan Buddhist people. I've worked with them every single year for the last 12 years. Many, many conferences and public appearances together. And, you know, a lot of people in my Christian community will say, like, why are you doing all this stuff with the Buddhism? Because he's a great man. Because he's a man full of love. Because he's made me a better Christian by asking me probing, hard questions. That's.
- [40:49]
Craig Groeschel
I mean, so I've got some people right now that are freaking out that you just said that. I mean, they are. And I kind of wanted to stand by your side and say, you mean you can be friends with people like that?
- [40:59]
Arthur C. Brooks
Yeah. You can learn from people like that.
- [41:02]
Craig Groeschel
Can you?
- [41:02]
Arthur C. Brooks
I mean, I think you can. I really think you can. I mean, the whole thing. Because there's so many good and virtuous. I know so many good and virtuous.
- [41:08]
Craig Groeschel
Can you be that confident to learn from people outside your faith? Of course you can.
- [41:11]
Arthur C. Brooks
So anyway, yeah, it's like there's a saying in Latin that we Catholics use is nolite temine. Be not afraid. Be not afraid. I mean, this is the Master tells us, the Lord tells us, be not afraid. Go into the world, sanctify your work. It's such a joy.
- [41:29]
Craig Groeschel
So let me say it this way. Sometimes I'll get criticized, like, why would a pastor talk about leadership? And so to me, talking about leadership should make me a better pastor, should make me a better person of faith. I mean, who led better than Jesus? And so I just kind of want to say to any people of faith right now that might be pushing back against Arthur, going like, why would you do that? To be better in your leadership, to be better in your, stronger in your faith. If you get out of your comfort zone and learn from different fields, it doesn't weaken your position, it actually strengthens it. And I just kind of want to say that because it's kind of dawning on me, I want to, to ask you, kind of shift gears, but I had to write all this down. So you were world class musician, you've worked in and with those in military, you've been an expert in economics, public policy, behavioral science, you teach at Harvard. You're a person of faith in all those different fields. Is there in leadership one principle that stands out in your mind that is always true and worth celebrating above any other principle?
- [42:46]
Arthur C. Brooks
For me there is. For me there is. Now there's a lot of skills that go into leadership. There's a lot of technique that goes into leadership. There's a lot of knowledge that goes into leadership. And not to denigrate any of that or to minimize the importance of any of those things, you got to be good at your job. You have to know what you're doing, you have to have experience in what you're trying to do or you'll fail. That's just the fact of the matter. I mean, to my MBA students, I remind them, the number one predictor of being successful as an entrepreneur is having some background and experience in the field in which you're trying to be an entrepreneur.
- [43:18]
Craig Groeschel
That seems obvious, but true.
- [43:19]
Arthur C. Brooks
It seems pretty obvious, but it's really important to reinforce that. There's no substitute for knowledge, skills and experience, to be sure, but the overriding the arc of sort of the motto, the underlying the pulse, as far as I'm concerned of this, it really comes from Aristotle, via Thomas Aquinas, you know, the most important medieval philosopher, St. Thomas Aquinas. For Catholics, Thomas Aquinas, for those who are not Christian, but a great philosopher nonetheless. And this is the same idea that comes from Averroes in the Islamic tradition and Maimonides in the Jewish tradition. And that's the definition of what literature love is. Love is not a feeling. We live in a society and a time and culture in an age of feelings. That's a big problem because feelings are nothing more than data that give you information on what's going on outside you. And they lie. Feelings lie constantly. To love is to will the good of the other as other. That's what it is. That's what love is. Love is a decision and an act and a commitment. And the best way that you can do that on a systematic level, on a high level that people can count on, you can change lives the most is as a leader. Do you want to take love to scale? Be a leader, that's what it comes down to. But understanding love properly, this is not some sort of sloppy, gushy, mushy thing. On the contrary, it's hard edged as flint, man. I'm going to make the decision to will other people's good as them, them, not as me. And I want to take that to scale. I want to dedicate my life to it. That's leadership.
- [44:49]
Craig Groeschel
So, so put some skin on that for me. And so I, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Let's say I don't. Let's say I say. Okay. Okay. Dr. Brooks. Yeah. You are. Yeah, you're brilliant. We, we see that. And you're a little bit weird Catholic. Okay, we, we see that. And now love and leadership, that kind, that's kind of soft and like how's that going to work when we've got a. We gotta pay the bills around here. You know, we gotta. I don't wanna lay people off, but we might have to. So, so tell me, what does that look like practically and why would I expect that to be effective?
- [45:21]
Arthur C. Brooks
So I'll answer that by making a distinction between two concepts that are frequently mistaken in the process of leadership. And the two concepts are empathy and compassion. Bad leaders are excessively empathetic. Great leaders are always compassionate. Now what's the difference between those two? Empathy is to feel somebody else's pain. And the truth of the matter is that you and I both know, because we've both been chief executives, you for me for 11 years, you for 30 something years, that you become in many ways less empathetic the longer that you're a chief executive, because you have to do hard things and you're not gonna be debilitated by doing hard things that people don't like. Sometimes you just can't live that way. You'll be a mess, you'll be a puddle on the floor. But compassion is an entirely different thing. Compassion is a hard thing and it's a skill that you cultivate and it's always useful and always appropriate and always effect. To be compassionate is to understand what needs to be done, to have the courage and skill to do it while not actually denigrating any other person. So the best parents are not empathetic, but they are compassionate. If you want to have successful teenagers don't feel their pain, do what needs to be done even when they don't like you, and do it in love because you love them as them. That's what it comes down to and that's really what it is. So to love, to have love at the center of your leadership is the hardest, toughest, flintiest thing that you could possibly have. And it's not empathy. Empathy, soft empathy's woo woo. It's mushy, it's, you know, it's, it's kind of, it's sort of a flaccid concept. But compassion, hard as rock.
- [46:59]
Craig Groeschel
So what I love about every time I'm with you is you. You tend to put language on intuitive ideas that I have but can't explain. And so you just, you just did that in. For 30 years I've been trying to explain what you just said in 32nd and I haven't been able to explain it. But you're absolutely right that there are a lot of leaders who do. They are, they have too much empathy and so.
- [47:22]
Arthur C. Brooks
And not enough compassion.
- [47:23]
Craig Groeschel
And not enough compassion. And so in the name of caring for people, they end up hurting the organization which ultimately hurts people.
- [47:29]
Arthur C. Brooks
Totally. Totally. And so politicians do the same thing too. They're so empathetic, but they're not compassionate.
- [47:34]
Craig Groeschel
Yes.
- [47:34]
Arthur C. Brooks
And parents are so empathetic, but they're not compassionate and that hurts their kids.
- [47:38]
Craig Groeschel
So talk to a leader right now that, that has too much empathy and not enough compassion. How do you work through that in your mind? And then love in a way that may not feel comfortable in the moment, but is genuinely love.
- [47:53]
Arthur C. Brooks
Yeah. So thinking about this and instantiating it can actually take a lot of practice. This is a skill. This is one of the skills that actually comes from experience.
- [48:00]
Craig Groeschel
And this would be crystallized more in the. Crystallized.
- [48:03]
Arthur C. Brooks
Yeah, yeah. And you find that older leaders tend to be better at this than younger leaders because. Because they're older and they've had more opportunities and more interactions, and they can be a little bit tougher because it's very tough.
- [48:13]
Craig Groeschel
And you tend to think a little bit higher.
- [48:16]
Arthur C. Brooks
Right.
- [48:16]
Craig Groeschel
You can get above the situation, above emotions.
- [48:20]
Arthur C. Brooks
So let's take a real life case study. You and I both been in this situation as leaders of organizations and as somebody who is not a good fit for the organization. They're just not. And they're making other people around them less effective. And they're not bad people. They're good people. You know, they're good people, but it's just not a fit. And this happens all the time. And you know you're gonna have to do something. And so you're not looking forward to this.
- [48:42]
Craig Groeschel
Oh, you're looking for this.
- [48:43]
Arthur C. Brooks
And you can't. You can't sleep. You don't have to deal with this. And this is somebody that I like and. And I know, I look, I know his wife.
- [48:50]
Craig Groeschel
He consumes every thought.
- [48:53]
Arthur C. Brooks
Let's, number one, let's take the empathetic leader and you call him in. Joe. Joe, this isn't working out. You're going to have to find a new place to work because this isn't working out. And Joe says, craig, I thought we had an understanding here. I thought you and I were friends. And, you know, I'm having a hard time at home. And so Craig says, okay, we'll give another shot. Right? That's an empathetic thing to do. But remember why you were doing this. You have a mission. And the mission of life, church is not good jobs for nice people, is bringing the cross and gospel of Jesus Christ to people all over the world. That's what it is. And that mission, by the way, that's tax law. You're supposed to do the mission as well. It's an ethical thing to do. And you just violated that. And I get it why you did that, because you have a heart that is for people. But now let's do the same thing over again in a compassionate way where you bring Joe and say, I hate the fact that we had a bad match here. I hate the fact that we have a bad match here. And I feel responsible for that. And so this isn't working out. And I think you know it and I think I know it, and I think you could be better off, and so will we when you're doing something else. And I've been giving some thought to what I think that we can actually do that's going to work to get you into a better position. I'm standing here to call three of my friends to talk about where you would be a better fit it. I'm going to do the work now. What you've done is you've served the organization.
- [50:25]
Craig Groeschel
I may cover your salary for a certain amount of time while we're going there, because I own part of the responsibility that's not working.
- [50:30]
Arthur C. Brooks
That's the compassionate thing to do. Because still Joe's not going to like it. Joe said Craig dismissed me, but Craig doesn't hate me. And Craig, actually Craig loves me and he cares about this and he's taking responsibility for it.
- [50:42]
Craig Groeschel
And if Joe's not right here, it's actually not right for Joe. Period.
- [50:45]
Arthur C. Brooks
Absolutely. Guess what? When you take the compassionate route, because you and I have both done this a hundred times, three years from now, Joe's going to come back and say, you did the right thing, you did the right thing. If you're just empathetic about it and you keep him in a job that he's not right for and he doesn't like, and then it's going to wind up with bitterness and sooner or later you're going to have to do it anyway and there's going to be nobody happy.
- [51:06]
Craig Groeschel
And if you don't have that conversation with Joe, then the other 10 people that are working with you and Joe will know that you didn't. And you're actually not being loving to them because you're tolerating underperformance or the wrong fit.
- [51:19]
Arthur C. Brooks
And guess who's going to leave culturally.
- [51:21]
Craig Groeschel
Then the good people are going to leave.
- [51:22]
Arthur C. Brooks
The good people are going to leave.
- [51:22]
Craig Groeschel
I say absolutely right.
- [51:23]
Arthur C. Brooks
Yep. And that's the true in every organization. And again, compassion means doing the right things with the resources that you've got for people while still loving the people and taking care of them.
- [51:33]
Craig Groeschel
So I want to slow it down for our community right now because this is one of the most common problems that leaders deal with. We have someone that's not the right fit. We have someone that's underperforming, or maybe they're, they're outright toxic. And because we care about them, we often don't deal with the problem. And if we don't deal with the problem, eventually we're the problem and the problem becomes bigger. And so I just want to let those words sink in and think about it. If you have someone right now that you know is not the right fit and with empathy, you're holding back from telling them the truth, replace that with compassion. And, and it doesn't mean you come in and fire them, it might mean you give them a real chance, which is you tell them, hey, things are not going well. And if you don't hit this standard by this time, then you're not going to get to work here. And here's what we're going to do to help you hit those standards. And you have to hit these marks and be really clear by this date. And then by that date, if they don't hit it, you say, hey, we were really clear and you didn't make it, and I'm really sorry and I don't like it, but we're going to have to make a change.
- [52:35]
Arthur C. Brooks
That's right. Remember, lying to people is not compassion. No, it's uncompassionate. It's empathetic and uncompassionate to lie to people about their performance.
- [52:43]
Craig Groeschel
Yes. Yes. Telling them the truth early is actually one of the most loving things you can do. Yeah. Yes.
- [52:47]
Arthur C. Brooks
Yeah, that's exactly right. And again, that's hard. That's one of the reasons that leadership is lonely. It's one of the reasons that leadership is hard. It's the hardest job in any company, by the way. It's also the riskiest job in Fortune 500 companies. The chances of being dismissed in the first 24 months are 25%. You're the one. You're the most likely person to get fired in your whole organization when you take the corner office is the bottom line.
- [53:09]
Craig Groeschel
So talk to me about this. If leadership is lonely and if leadership is hard and if I'm good at being a leader, how can I be happy when it's lonely and hard?
- [53:18]
Arthur C. Brooks
Yeah, you can be happy doing all kinds of lonely and hard things. There have been people in every walk of life who have a lot of suffering and who are really happy people because what they're doing is truly important. What they're doing is truly meaningful. But here's the point. You won't be happy because of the loneliness and because of the difficulty. If you're working for years, you. That's when it becomes pretty much all downside. Now again, Mother Nature wants you to be thinking about you all the time. The psychodrama, you're the star in your dreams. Last night, you were the star of every one of your dreams. That's just nature is the way that that works. But if you can actually make the leap from the physical nature of being the CEO to the metaphysical nature of being what the CEO, what the leadership, what the leader is, then you'll be able to do Your work with joy, even when it's hard. I've worked with EMTs and paramedics and emergency room docs, you know, and they're seeing all kinds of difficult stuff, and they're working weird hours, and they're seeing gunshot victims and they're seeing children dying. And they can do it really, really joyfully unless they're only thinking about themselves. That's really. That's the difference. I mean, do you love others as others, then you can do the hardest thing with joy.
- [54:26]
Craig Groeschel
So at this scene of your life, what is the thing that's bringing you the most joy?
- [54:31]
Arthur C. Brooks
Yeah, what's bringing me the most joy right now is the fact that I'm. I am living up to my own personal mission. My mission is to lift people up and bring them together in bonds of happiness and love, using science and ideas. It took me a while to get here, and I thought about it and I prayed an awful lot. I said, lord, show me my path. I mean, we always pray this, but we rarely mean it because he's gonna. And it can be pretty jarring when he does. But I prayed that and I went through a whole series of exercises, spiritual exercises, about how I could really discern this. And I feel like for the very first time in my life, I'm doing what I really need to be doing. And the result of that is that I'm in alignment with the other parts of my life as well. My marriage is better than it's ever been. And again, there's tough times coming. I mean, I'm not getting any younger, and we're all going to have health challenges going forward, and I'm going to have to make decisions about how much stuff I can actually do. And that's going to be hard, to be sure. But the source of joy in my life is the alignment between what I'm doing and what's written on my heart for the first time.
- [55:34]
Craig Groeschel
That's a really powerful word, alignment. And I think there was a quote I used to say that sometimes the difference between where you are and where you could be is the hard truth about yourself you're not willing to tell. And what I'd like to know your book, and I want to talk about it again, because I haven't and promoted it the way I want to. From strength to strength, finding success, happiness, and deep purpose in the second half of life. So I tell people 40ish. Read this book. 100%, everybody. I promise you. Read it, read it, read it. And it is a game changer. I feel like you have so much to offer people that one podcast is just not fair, not enough. If I wanted to say, hey, I want you to be a distant mentor to me and I want to learn. I want you to help me think holistically about, hey, my mind is actually connected to my body, so I want to have a better mind. I need to have a better body. And I really want to. I want to be sincere about developing my faith. And I also want to be not just successful in the best of my field, but I want to have real friendships. How can I get the best out of you from a distance? Tell me, where do I go? What do I read? What do I study? How do I. How do I make you a friend that I'm learning from consistently?
- [56:51]
Arthur C. Brooks
Well, you text me, Craig.
- [56:53]
Craig Groeschel
How does my audience. How does my community do that?
- [56:57]
Arthur C. Brooks
So I write every week about topics of success for strivers. It's a column that I write in the Atlantic on Thursday mornings called how to Build a Life. And it's written for this audience. It's written for people who do.
- [57:12]
Craig Groeschel
You email that out?
- [57:13]
Arthur C. Brooks
Yeah. So you go to the Atlantic theatlantic.com and then subscribe to the magazine. You'll get it every week, delivered to your doorstep. And you can get my newsletter every Monday morning, which is kind of based on what I'm thinking about in the same lines, highly scientific ideas that come from data about how to be a more effective leader, how to be a more effective professional and personally in your life and your relationships.
- [57:36]
Craig Groeschel
Where do we go to get your arthurbrooks.com.