← Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast
Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast
Mastering Hard Conversations
00:21:02
Without a system of honest feedback, your team’s growth will always be limited. In this episode, Craig shares the power of giving helpful feedback, practical tips for how to do it, and pitfalls to avoid when having developmental conversations.
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What is not loving is what happens most of the time. And that is they're not performing well and you're frustrated and you don't say anything about it. And they're not performing well and you're frustrated and you don't say anything about it. Then eventually you complain to your spouse, you complain to other team members, which is not appropriate. Be like, this guy, he's not and she's not. And you go weeks and weeks and weeks, and finally you can't take it anymore. And you come in and you either yell at them or you fire them or whatever. And they're like, why? I didn't even know what's going on. So what you're doing is actually very, very loving by telling them the truth. Hey, it's great to have you back for another episode of the Craig Gross Show Leadership Podcast. I'll tell you honestly, I feel genuinely called to help you get better in your leadership because we know that everyone wins when the leader gets better and we're doing something different. Normally, we drop a new episode on the first Thursday of each month. We're going crazy around here right now. We're gonna do a new episode every week for a while as we're doing a little bit of a series around your questions. I want to talk about what you want to talk about, and you got some great questions. We had people ask about developing emerging leaders and giving feedback and team building and creating culture and burnout and self care. Today, let's focus on leading up and how do you give feedback. And my goal is to bring you high value content. If you don't have the leader Guide, get the Leader Guide, go to Life Church LeaderShipPodcast and we'll send that to you. Also, if you can rate or review the content, it means a lot to me. Hit subscribe. I'm gonna work hard to bring you valuable content. I'm gonna value your time. My goal is to give you the highest value of content per minute of any podcast you listen to. So with that, let's start with Manuel, who asked the question, how do you have hard conversations in a way where someone will listen and grow and not just think that you're being critical? We had a lot of you ask questions like this, like, how do you give feedback without hurting people's feelings? It's a really good question and something that we all experience. I've got a book I'll recommend to you at the end that may be helpful on this subject. But first, let's acknowledge that for many leaders, especially newer leaders, or really any seasoned leader, receiving correction can be difficult, and. And that's the way it naturally feels. But I wanna promise you it doesn't have to be painful. So let's start with what you asked Manuel. You said this. You said, how do we have hard conversations? And I would suggest a very small tweak. And it doesn't sound like a big deal, but it actually could make a big difference. You said, how do we have a hard conversation? I suggest, instead of saying, how do we have that difficult, dreaded, challenging, hard conversation? Let's reframe it and say, how do we have a developmental conversation? In many ways, it's the same thing, but by calling it a developmental conversation, it'll actually change your mindset and how you approach someone else. Why does it matter what we call it? Because the way we frame something determines how we feel about it. If we call it a difficult conversation, what's happening? We're nervous, and we're actually focused on more how we feel about it. I'm nervous about this, and I don't want them to feel bad about it. If we call it a developmental conversation, we're reminded, hey, I care about my team member. I'm having this conversation because I believe in her, and I want to help her get better. I have their best interest in mind. By framing the conversation as developmental, it gives you more confidence that you're there to help. So how do we approach this developmental conversation? I want you to think about a couple of variables, and I'll kind of address both of them. Consider two things. First of all, consider how big of an issue are you correcting? Is it something minor, not a real big deal, or is it major? How big of an issue is it? And then what's your relationship to the team member? First of all, how big of an issue is it? Is it something relatively minor? It's like a small behavior that's easy to correct. Maybe it's something that they don't know that they're doing, and with one little suggestion, they can make a significant change, you know? Or is it a big deal? Like, is it the one of those, like, you don't work here anymore if you don't change it type of an issue? Why does it matter the size of the issue? Because the size of the problem will shape the direction of your approach. The size of the problem will shape how you approach the situation. If it's a small problem, just a little issue, you can have a quick, very intentional developmental conversation. But it can almost be like an aside, like, hey, by the way, you know, you spend some time together. I saw something, and it doesn't have to be formal. You don't need to schedule a time. You don't need to document the conversation. It's just more natural. And the spirit of it is, you know, I care about you, and I want to show you something small that'll help you get better. That's kind of the tone. If it's a serious issue, this is a different thing, and this is why we're qualifying it. If it's like a real big developmental issue, you're gonna wanna plan a meeting, and you're gonna wanna put a lot of thought into it. You might wanna have someone else in the meeting. Oftentimes when it's a difficult conversation, you want someone else to be in there just to be either a support and. Or a witness. And if it's a real serious conversation, you're gonna wanna document it. And sometimes this sounds cruel, but it's actually fair and loving as you wanna, you know, document, have the person sign if you're doing a performance improvement. So you're coming into how serious of an issue is this? And then you want to ask, what's your relationship with a team member? You know, like, if it's your first week of the job and you're trying to correct your supervisor, I'd say don't do it right. You know, if you've been on the team for a long time, you might be coaching a peer, and you'll come in with one mindset to a peer or direct report, or it might be someone you're close to or someone that you barely know. But again, your relationship will shape the style of your approach. You'll approach a friend one way, a peer, you know, someone who's level with you one way, a boss with a different mindset or someone that you oversee with again, a different mindset. We'll come back to a little bit more of that in a bit. But first, and most importantly, so important in any conversation, you want your team members to know that you care about them. You want them to know that you believe in them. And this is kind of the safety net, because anytime you're going to say, like, you're not doing this great, you can do this better. You want the safety net of them knowing that every thing that you say to them is said out of love and out of value and out of belief. And then what I'm gonna say is gonna sound like I'm contradicting myself, but I'm actually not. When you start the conversation. Don't beat around the bush. Just be very, very clear. Get right into it. Let's Assuming you're correcting something that's relatively small, just say it. Hale's thinking, and just say it. Be direct, be clear, be honest. If it's a peer, you might just get into it like this. Hey, I remember a time when someone gave me a helpful suggestion. I want to do the same for you. You're not beating around the bush, you're just getting into it. If you're their boss, you're going to start with something like, hey, you know, you're doing a great job. And because you're a valuable part of the team and you're important to me, I want to invest a bit more in you and show you an area where I think you can get better. You're just getting right into it. Tell them directly, honestly, don't hold back. You don't want it to be disguised, kind of like a bait and switch. Like, yeah, we're hanging out for lunch and then zing, boom, you know, I'm gonna drop something on you. You're just gonna tell them, hey, I've got a suggestion on something you can do better. And you'll be pretty direct. Then give them the feedback and be really, really clear. Here's what you can do better. As often as you can. Be specific. Be specific. Like if someone's got a bad attitude to meeting, like, I don't want to see a bad attitude. What does that mean? Does that mean you're showing up late? Does it mean you're sitting there scowling? Does it mean that you are shooting down every idea? What does it mean? What does a good attitude mean? Does it mean you're smiling, you're contributing, you're not sulking, you're coming in early, you're asking questions. Be as specific as you can on the feedback. What is the exact behavior you want to see? Or what is the exact outcome that you need to see? You want to be really, really, really, really specific. Take that part slow. Assume they may not be understanding. And once you've kind of said what you need to say, then you want to real sincerely ask, like, what questions or thoughts do you have about what I said? What questions or thoughts do you have about my suggestions? And you want to let them process for a little bit. If you say it and think they heard it, you might miss it. Let me say it again. If you say it and think they heard it, they might miss it. The moment that you're coming at them with some Suggestion. Their defenses tend to go up, especially if they're not. If you don't have a close relationship and they're like, oh, my gosh. And they're starting to be defensive, like, but you don't understand. And they're kind of coming up their excuses. And so you may be talking, but they're actually. Their mind is spinning. They're not really listening. And so you want to make sure that they understand. You might have to repeat it. You might have to tell them again. You might have to tell them in a different language, choose different words. And you want to make sure that we're on the same page. So what I normally do toward, you know, two thirds of the conversation in. Or whatever, I'll say like, can you tell me specifically, you know, what you can do better in this area? You know, can you tell me what you hear me saying? So I'm asking for clarity to make sure that we are connecting. You want to make sure they understand and that you're communicating. And then if they do and you see any improvement in that area, you jump on it with, hey there. Hey, there it is. That's what we're talking about. Great job. And so you want to. When they win, you want to celebrate the win. If you're giving them something small, like, you know, have a good attitude after the meeting, like, yeah, yeah, you added value. Or smiling, you're amazing. You know, you heard the feedback and you did it. What's rewarded is repeat it. What's rewarded is repeat it. When you see it, reward it. And then they'll often repeat it. Hey, Craig here. We'll get back to the episode in just a minute, but I wanted to first of all share a resource that I think you'll find helpful to your leadership. There's a secret that I've learned about leadership, and we know it. The best leaders are almost always the best readers. Why? Because your influence and impact are in many ways a result of the books and ideas that you take in. So as I look back over my years of leadership, there are 44 books that rise to the top as books that I believe that every leader should read. So our team has curated the list and organized it and into the areas that you'll want to grow in. To get this free list, go to Life Church 44 books. That's the number four and four Life Church 44 books. And I hope this will be a gift to you to dig into a list of great books, get reading, and keep leading. Now back to the episode. Let's say it's a more serious issue. And if they don't change this area of their performance, they don't get to work here. Are they gonna change roles at that point? If you're their boss, their supervisor, you're coming in with a different tone, and this matters. I often say the hat you wear determines the emotion they feel. There's a friend hat, there's a boss hat, there's a peer hat, there's a coach hat. This is the boss hat. We're coming to the meeting as a boss, and I suggest you set a meeting with a specific time and maybe not a week early. You don't tell them it's a difficult developmental conversation, but maybe the morning of say, hey, today we're gonna talk about something serious so they know they're coming into a meeting. You're not gonna blind. And if you're correcting something small, it can be casual, but if it's something big, you want it to be a little more formal, with intentionality. Now, really important. When the meeting starts, don't beat around the bush and don't say, hey, how's your family? What are you doing this weekend? No, they sit down. You sit down and you tell them directly, we're going to have a developmental conversation. This is the most loving thing you can do. Get straight into it. And then I usually acknowledge this may not be easy for you to hear, but I'm telling you this because I really believe in you and I want to help you succeed. And so I'm going to tell them that I'm going to go slow into it. And whenever you're expressing care at the beginning of it, take your time, but be direct. We're not playing around. Today, we're going to talk about a serious issue. It's going to be a real developmental conversation. And as we get into it, I want you to know I really, really, really believe in you. Take your time. And then you're going to say four things. And you say it in your own words, not in these words, but you're gonna say some form of these things. You're gonna say, things are not going well. Here's what specifically needs to change and by when. Here's how we're gonna help you succeed. How am I gonna help you? And if you don't get there, we're gonna make a change in your role. Let me say it again. Things are not going well. Here's what you need to change and by when. Here's how I'm gonna help you succeed. And if you don't get there. We're, we're gonna make a change. Sometimes again, you're gonna wanna put this in writing. You're doing a performance plan and this is what needs to happen. And if it's to that level, don't be afraid to put in writing. It's important to document what you're doing. And again, that's actually loving to do. What is not loving is what happens most of the time. And that is they're not performing well and you're frustrated and you don't say anything about it. And they're not performing well and you're frustrated and you don't say anything about it. Then eventually you complain to your spouse, you complain to other team members, which is not appropriate. You're like, this guy, he's not and she's not. And you go weeks and weeks and weeks and finally you can't take it anymore. And you come in and you either yell at em or you fire em or whatever. And they're like, but why? I didn't even know this was going on. So what you're doing is actually very, very loving by telling them the truth. Now, with all that said, and you go through it and you say, hey, things aren't going well, you're not getting this done. And then what you're gonna do is you're gonna be really, really specific. Here is the type of behavior that we need to see, and we need to see it by a certain time and then tell them what you're going to do to get there. Meaning, like, I'm going to, we're going to put you in a class, I'm going to get you a book, we're going to get you a mentor. I'm going to meet with you every Friday for an hour. We're going to review this or whatever and you need to get to this point, this kind of behavior or this kind of outcome by this time. And then we're going to meet in 90 days. And at 90 days we're going to make a decision. Well, 90 days from now, when they walk into the meeting or 60 days or whatever it is you put on it, they pretty much know how it's going to go because you are really clear and you are really loving. If they're nailing it, the meeting's going to be easy. Hey, we told you, here's what you had to do and you did it. Well done. Good job. Let's go. If they're not, the conversation is actually not really difficult. It's, hey, you know, we met, I told you, you had to make a change. We worked on it and you didn't quite get there. And for the sake of the whole team and the organization, we're going to have to make a change. And that's not easy, but it's easier. Now. With all that said, your biggest goal is something that many people don't ask about. And I want to tell you what your biggest goal is, and this is so important in any kind of organizational development, is you want to create a culture that gives and craves helpful, timely and honest feedback. What's your goal? You want to create a culture that gives feedback, that craves feedback, that gives it a way that's helpful, a way that's at the right time and that's very, very honest. And this is ridiculously important because anyone who excels in any area of life got there because they had helpful coaches and mentors and voices in their life. You'll never see a pro athlete that didn't have coaches. You'll never see a professional violinist that didn't have instruction. You'll never see a top CEO that didn't receive mentoring and coaching and help along the way. So what you want to do is, is you want to have a great team, a great productive organization. Then you want to create a culture that gives and craves helpful, timely and honest feedback. Now, how do you do that? Well, the answer is you do it intentionally. You never get there accidentally. If you just let people give feedback when they feel like it, most people are conflict resistant. They're not going to do it. So you want to develop the skill and the appetite for and the ability to give and receive helpful feedback. We do it in many ways here. If I had more time, I'd tell you a bunch of them. I'll tell you one of my favorite ways we do it. The church I lead currently is in 45 locations. We have about 1,000 employees. And that includes those on the church teams, the central team collection of Bible apps, and other ministries as well. But on the campus teams, the local churches, they will meet regularly and do what we call stage drills. What are stage drills? There'll be a team of, let's say, 15 people. And they got a youth pastor, a kids pastor, worship pastor, ministry pastor, associate pastor, host team and such. And they'll say to the host team pastor, hey, why don't you get up on stage in front of all their peers and announce that we have a volunteer gathering meeting on Tuesday night and do it in a compelling way so that people show up. Or they might say to the youth pastor, tell everybody, we've got a parent student conference coming up on such and such date and we wanna pitch it in a way that's really compelling. Or we might say to a new teamer, hey, we want you to present the gospel and tell us about the grace of God in a way that makes sense and compelling and leads people to the option of making a decision. And then once they've done, like this three minute assignment, they had no preparation for it. So you can imagine how hard that is. Then guess what happens? Everybody there gives feedback. And so the new youth pastor's getting feedback, the hosting pastor's getting feedback and they're giving suggestions. And then another person goes up and the person who was just receiving the feedback gives the feedback. Now why do we do that? Well, one of the reasons is we want to help people become better communicators. Yes. But what is probably the more important and more strategic reasons, guess what we're doing is we are teaching everyone there how to give feedback, how to receive it, how to develop an appetite for it. If you want your team to get better, you're going to have to teach people to do this because they don't get there naturally. If you are the leader, and this is super important, you're going to need to model it. If you don't receive feedback, if you don't crave it, if you don't ask for it, and if you don't take it and apply it, your team is much less likely to do so. In my world, every week before I give a weekend message, a sermon, I'll have a team of 12, probably different people look at the message on the front end and give me feedback before I give it. Then after I give it, I have a team of people that I trust come in and say, hey, here's what you could do better and you could change this. And that wasn't really clear. And that was good. And so what I'm doing is the whole organization knows I'm fair game. We're all fair game. We need it. And I won't preach a message without getting feedback on the front end because I feel too vulnerable. Once you create a culture that values feedback, people aren't gonna resist it. They are going to crave it. Super important. Again, my purpose of this podcast is to develop great leaders. It's no secret that I'm a pastor. And so I'll speak, not to push this on you, but say from a spiritual perspective, no one was more loving than Jesus, and Jesus gave a lot of Very loving feedback. Whenever James and John, two of his disciples, wanted to be noticed, they wanted to be promoted, they want to be more important. They wanted more power. Jesus gave them loving feedback and said, hey, if you want to be great, you serve, because the greatest among you would be your servant. When a lady named Martha was wigging out with anxiety. She's freaking out. Oh, my gosh, there's too much to do, too much to do. Jesus looked at her and said, hey, you're worried and upset about many things. He gave her feedback and, and say, there's one thing that's more important than this. You can have time with me. You don't need to worry so much about these things. When the disciples were afraid in a storm one time, Jesus said really lovingly, like, hey, why don't you have more faith in me? I'm with you in the storm. I'm always gonna be with you. And so I want you to see that it's loving to give feedback. Manuel, you asked an important question, and it may not be easy, but it is loving. Ken Blanchard, a good friend of mine, he's the author of the classics One Minute Manager. In the book Lead Like Jesus, he says this. He says, the key to successful leadership today is influence, not authority. The key to successful leadership today is influence, not authority. And influence is fueled by love, not power. So important when you give feedback, you're doing it because you care about people, have the courage to step in and. And love people enough to tell the truth. And when you do that, guess what they'll give you? They'll give you the same gift in return. They'll give you good, timely, honest, helpful feedback, and they'll help you get better. And we know that everyone wins when the leader gets better. I want to encourage you to get the Leader Guide. Super important Go to Life Church LeaderShipPodcast. We'll send you additional content and questions. If you have not subscribed to the podcast, hit subscribe. If you'll rate it, write a review. That would be a gift to me. I'm gonna work hard for you. I'm not monetizing this. This is my gift to you. If you can just, like, do that, it's a small gift to me. It'll make a big, big difference. I wanna bring you valuable content and help you get better. There's a book that I wanna offer to you, Crucial Conversations. There's like five authors or four authors. I'm not gonna mention them all. Very, very, very helpful book. If you'd like the chance at winning one of five free copies. You can hop over to YouTube and on the YouTube page and type, I want to have good conversations in the next episode. Type and I want to have good conversation next episode. I'm going to answer your questions about younger leaders, emerging leaders, how do we develop them? How do Gen Z leaders need to think? How do we develop gen leader Gen Z leaders? And again, thank you for investing a little bit of time. Time with me, 20 minutes, a little bit over. I care about you. I have a burden to invest in you. I believe in you. And I believe today you got a little bit better. We know it. Everyone wins when the leader gets better.