Staff Talks with Francis: How to Recognize God’s Leading - Crazy Love Podcast

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[00:06]
Podcast Host
Welcome to the Crazy Love Podcast. Some opportunities require hard work, and others feel like God has gone before you. In today's Staff Talk, Francis shares what he's been learning about recognizing when the Lord is already at work and why humility, faith, and submission are essential if we want to follow where he's leading.
[00:31]
Francis Chan
Yeah, I. I think, you know, Rob was talking about earlier how, you know, the time in the jails is just so great. I mean, it. It really is the highlight of my week. Every time I get home, Lisa's like, how was it? I'm like, oh, this one was the best. And it just, you know, I think lately I've been seeing a contrast with certain things I do that are just, like, ministry tasks or things we're pursuing or trying to do. Then there's other things that you feel like, okay, God is. This is a God thing. He's pushing something, and I'm just caught in the middle of it. But it's just this idea that I think there's certain things we do in ministry that are good. They're fine. But then there's other times when you really sense, like, God's calling me into something. And I guess I've been feeling that more lately, which shows me that, wow, I think there's been a season of me just doing stuff, just trying to be faithful, but not necessarily feeling like a supernatural thing. So, like, for example, today you're. We're reading in Joshua, not San Francisco, but the rest of. We are church globally. We're, you know, in Joshua, and we're talking about, you know, you're reading about Rahab and the spies going to her, and she's like, okay, yes, I'm going to hide you guys, because we all know what your God's about to do. And then, you know, today was more the Gibeonites and. And them having to fake like, oh, you know, just have pity on us. And then, you know, Joshua asked like, why'd you do that? And he's like, no. Ever since Moses, we knew your God, you know, so we had to do something out of desperation. And it's like, okay, this is our God, and you can lose sight, and you don't want to be that person that doesn't have faith in those things. I showed you that. The screenshot of the guy whose cancer was healed. But it's interesting because I talked to him on the phone because he was like, I didn't know if you'd remember me. Of course I remember you. He goes, but do you remember that time you Called me on stage, I go, no. And he says, you know, because he was a big guy, he's kind of like a bodybuilder guy. And he goes, yeah, you had like a 40 or 50 pound dumbbell. And you said, how many of you guys. And you asked me, do you think you could curl this thing 20 times? And I looked down like, yeah, I could do it 20 times. And we asked the crowd, like, how many you think he can do it 20 times? And you know, it's decent weight. So it was kind of split. And you know, but so then he does it, he does his 20 reps. And I said something along the line of, okay, now I got another dumbbell here and it's £10. How many of you think he could do that 20 times? And you know, it was kind of like this rhetorical, stupid question. And the whole point was, okay, if we believe that God spoke the world into existence, that's a pretty heavy lift. If we believe he raised the dead. And we're like, yeah, no, no, I believe that. I believe that. But then some of our addictions, some of our, you know, problems today, we just see it as like, ah, that's impossible. No way cancer. Like, we just don't want to be people like that, that if God is behind something. And so this whole project we're in with just really believing that God wants unity at the communion table. Like, it's like, how big of a lift do we really think that is for God? And if God is behind this, we have to stop thinking like mere humans. And, and I mean, this was Christ's prayer. If I want to believe in my prayers, I got to at least believe in Jesus prayers that he was praying according to the will of Jesus and he's praying for this oneness in the church. And you see these moves, you know, with the thing that you made with how we got here and these schisms that took place in 4:31 and 4:51, and how, wow, suddenly they're lifting these anathemas that are 1500 years old. They still won't come to the table together. But that's a big deal to say, hey, I think we were wrong 1500 years ago. And we're still kind of saying. We were kind of saying the same thing, you know, the difference between the hypostatic union and the prosopic union. I think we're kind of saying the same thing. We shouldn't have split up and had union tables 1500 years ago. So we agree on that. But let's still not be at the same table. It's like, okay, that's kind of weird, but okay. But at least there's movement. That's crazy to lift something that's 1500 years old and then to look at Vatican II and the lifting of anathemas between the Orthodox and the Catholic Church, like, wow, you guys said you're anathema and you're excommunicated and your communion is not valid. Your communion is not valid. Now a thousand years later, you're rethinking that. And then just what happened with the speaking of the Nicene Creed by the Pope and the leader of the Orthodox Church. That was just less than a year ago. Thousand year old, you know, divisions that you'd go, oh, that. That can't happen. You can't fix that. And it's like, no, that can be fixed. And then I guess that's what I felt in Nashville was like, gosh, this doesn't feel like something we're trying to do, but it feels very much like there's a wind behind this. And I'm just kind of going with the flow and just kind of moving where it doesn't feel like I'm forcing something. And there are times in life, in ministry, where I feel like I'm forcing something or trying to make something happen, which I don't think there's wrong in that. I think that's just part of the process. I think that's part of what you see in the Book of Acts. So I was headed this way and the Spirit stopped me. It's like, well, there's nothing wrong with you heading that way. You're just trying to do something for the Lord. Very much like when David was going to build the temple. And then I love that passage. I think it's 2nd Chronicles, 4 verses 7 and 8, or 6 verses 7 and 8, where Solomon says, it was in my father's heart to build this temple. And God told him it was good that that was in your heart. Nevertheless, it's not you that's going to do it, but your son, Solomon. And so I think there'll be moments in our life where we're doing things that it was good that it was in your heart, that you. I thought I was going to do this. And you know, and God says, nevertheless, that's not the way it's going to go, but Solomon's going to do it. And so then there's this blessing upon Solomon. And I guess I. I'm feeling some of those things, you know, with the recording and the songs and just the relationships and the conversations. And I just. I just don't want us to lose faith in those things. Because maybe sometimes we try to do things and it's not necessarily bad. It's probably a good thing that that was in your heart. You pursued it, but you didn't sense the breath of God being behind you. And that's okay. It's not I screwed up. But it's the Lord saying, it's good that that was in your heart. Nonetheless, it's not the plan for you right now. But then every once in a while you get into something where you're going, okay, this is weird. This is a lot of good stuff kind of heading this way. And I think one of the things I forgot who said it, it was during the time in Nashville. They were quoting this other songwriter friend of ours. And I don't know if I got the person right, so I won't even say his name, but he says, I always try to position myself so that the wind of God is at my back. You know, you just try to sense where's God going. And then, okay, this is versus in my face. And again, the in my face doesn't necessarily mean you're in sin and he's blocking it. It's just more. And that's not really it. But that's good that you're pursuing this. And so just been thanking God for feeling like there's more and more things that I'm not pushing. It's just kind of happening. And just to look in your life and believe for those things, because we don't ever want to lack faith and just go to that human, here's what's reasonable, here's what's possible. But to look at the scriptures and go, wow, if he did that, that's like that 50 pound lift, really, comparatively, I'm looking at a 10 pound thing. And so of course he can. And so now it's like, lord, is the wind at my back? And am I seeing these things? And if so, that's exciting. And it's not always like. It's not always like this becomes this big movement. Because when I was in Asia, there were times when I just thought, gosh, we're just trying to force something here. I mean, it's fine, it's good technically, but do I go, oh, that was awesome. That was a move of God. Some people will say that about anything, but sometimes it's just more like the realism is like, you know, not everything is awesome and you don't have to Say it's a move of God. You just go, that's good. And then there were other things that weren't necessarily big. For example, it was great being in the Philippines. Philistines with the Philistines and the Philippines. And I was with Billy and Sharon and they're just caring for, you know, like 20 street kids and been faithfully doing this for years. I think Sharon spent like 20 something years doing this. And you just go, gosh, this is beautiful. And it's of the Lord, their hearts, and it's just sweet. Now, is it as giant movements? No, you're just faithful to these people. And then when I was in Korea, I was just with a small group of leaders and you just sense the presence of God with us. And yes, God's doing big things through them. But it wasn't that. It was the community, it was the love, it was the gosh, soak this in. This is beautiful. I'm just in the presence of God with you guys and we're all feeling it. And that's what I felt in the jail cell yesterday with the, you know, it was a smaller group and it was all in Spanish. So, you know, I can only say so much, but it just. I don't have time to talk about all the things that happened there. But it was like, God's with us. This is so cool. This is so great. Thank you, Lord. I'm so enjoying this. And just times with the Lord doesn't have to be a massive thing, but I think it's just important that we don't have to exaggerate things and you don't have to feel like you've got a opposite of exaggerate. Desaturate things, minimize. Oh, that's good. Paul. Got it before you downplay. Good, good. Still no word. So anyways, I'm excited. The one thing I do tell people when I go speak to leaders or whatever else, it's like, I don't want to minimize what God's done in my life too, because, okay, I'm not the most intelligent leader. I'm not just the best leader. I'm not the. But I still got a lot of faith and I'm still excited about things and I still believe the best is yet to come. Still, like, it doesn't mean I'm going to speak to bigger crowds because I'm not even really wanting that. I don't want that personally. I just. But I'm excited about every little gathering I get in. Like anything could happen right now. You guys, this is crazy. This is awesome. Like, just that I still feel that I just go, wow, that's really cool. I just want to thank God for that. That's a grace of something he puts in you where you still have this zeal and this childlike wonderful. And I do. And I believe that's something God did in my life and I'm thankful for that. And I believe there's a wind in that. And that was just my heart. Like when I was with the Korean group, there was just like, gosh, you guys, you guys are really cranking along. But I really love you guys and I don't want you to lose this fire because here's ways that the enemy. I've seen so many people lose that wonder and that excitement, and I still have it. And even grateful. I said, you get to an age where you're just grateful even for the hard times. You know, it's like you start realizing, I'm grateful for that conflict because I made it through it and I'm stronger now and I know more conflicts about to come. Especially as we pursue unity. It's going to get a lot thicker and go, okay, God, that's cool that I get to suffer some of this rejection for you. Like, it's like, oh, I'm finally there now when we're in the middle of it, I might not feel that way completely, but by the grace of God, I'll rebound and I'll be fine. But it was cool just to love on people like that and look at young leaders and go, oh, God, protect them, them, keep them excited when they're 60, keep them still in wonder and believing in these things. And you know, same for you guys. Just remember the things that God's done that were the 50 pound lift and go, gosh, there's things I'm doubting for. That's really dumb to doubt that God could do curls with 10 pounds. And yeah, it's just fun. It's still fun. It's still exciting. I'm still believing for anything. So I have a question. Yes.
[17:28]
Podcast Guest or Interviewer
How do you discern for people who are in ministry and they're like, I don't feel the wind of God against my back, but I also don't feel like God opposing me. Right. But ministry is like, not easy. It's a struggle. I haven't seen much fruit and I just have these 20 street kids or I have this like small little house church where I have this like tiny little thing. How do you know when to like, just say, all right, like, this is probably not it? And I need to fold it or like, no, this is something that I need to continue to struggle in and press on, even though I don't have any sense from the Lord, like, shut it down or whatever. And you're just kind of like, there,
[18:25]
Francis Chan
that's good. First, I would say that's the beauty of spiritual authority and being under leaders. Talking to a young buck last night that was over for dinner, but you know, he's like, hey, I'm thinking about doing this thing. And I was like, okay, well, let's walk through the last three years of your life. You know, it's this, then this and this, this, and then you're feeling, I'm not rooted. And I said, well, you know, and this next thing that you're thinking about, let's just be careful because your generation is very much about like, ah, this, you know, I'm going to go by faith to this place. And it takes a lot more faith nowadays to be consistent and to work a job and get good at it and actually develop a skill and become this useful part of the body. It's hard to love people consistently and. And I said, you know, even my own example, you know, people go, gosh, yeah, I want to be like Francis, he just like, knew God was calling him and he just left. And I'm like, well, that was 16 and a half years at Cornerstone. And now I've been about 16 years and doing house church. It's not like every month it's like, whoa, where's God calling me? And it's, I don't want people look at that and go, oh, yeah, let's just go wherever the wind blows in the sense, there is a sense of, you don't know where the spirit's moving this or that. But, you know, if I could go back again and redo anything, it would be just a stronger commitment to submission to authority and loving authority. And I feel like I was pretty good even as a young man at obeying orders and coming under leadership. And so that's a big part of the Christian life. In fact, that's where I, you know, as we're reading First Corinthians 12, which you guys aren't because you didn't come under that leadership. But as I look at the First Corinthians 12 this time through, like, there was a thing in which, like the different gifts, I never noticed. Maybe I've noticed and I just re noticed where he says that God orchestrates so that there would be no division in the body. There was a way in which, like, I'm not going to give this person ever. I'm not gonna gift away with everything. If he's a liver, he's a liver. That's it. So that he doesn't just run off, say, I got it. You know, you're gonna notice pretty soon, wow, a liver by itself is ridiculous. Orchestrate. You're gonna figure it out sooner or later. And so there's something about that. And I say this in the middle macro level because I go, gosh, there is something awesome about the Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic Church, as far as authority that we don't. We're not great at. Because with the releasing of all the gifts and everyone sharing their thoughts and their gifting, there comes this sense of my opinions just as important as yours. And so we're always running into at. We are church people that just feel like their opinion's so great. And I don't come under the opinions of the authority because I'm equal to them. You know, even though they wouldn't say that, eventually it becomes, hey, I have different ideas than you guys. And we tend to attract those people. And so I was like, well, I sat down and heard from the Lord that I'm supposed to do that. It's like, well, how do you argue with that? And so I would say, you know, seek some spiritual authority. First and foremost, that is God protecting you and leading you through that. And sometimes this generation where we have so many options, if I can just go off by myself, we tend to do that. But that's where I think I have this longing of, like, gosh, I want to be under leadership. I don't want to just create my own thing. And that's where I'm meeting some of these priests and going, I need you versus you. Go, do your thing. We don't need you. I'm like, gosh, we need some of what they carry, but we can run quickly to, okay, but then that means this is it. I go, I get it, I get it. It's not easy, but I need some of what they do. I have no problem saying that. And that's what they're saying coming this way. It's like, oh, we so need what these guys are doing. And so when we're determining the will of God, I would just say, let's be very careful not to just have this individualistic American. I'm gonna go forge my way. Because that's really what we lift up often. And there needs to be more of an uplifting of authority and going, yeah, I don't think I. And that's what I've, you know, really loved about my children. It's just I give them their autonomy. You do what you want to do to a degree, you know, but there's certain times it's like, like, no, no, no, that's not going to happen. But for the most part, it's like, hey, go do this thing. But they've been very, very submissive, very much, like, trusting. And that's why, you know, I think about Zeke and Ellie right now and, you know, him wanting counsel of, hey, what do you think I should do on this? And it's like, ah, you know, I think you should stay. I think you should work. I think you should do this. And, you know, just like, okay, I think you're right. I think I'm going to do that. You know, but he doesn't just seek the Lord on his own. And then with Ellie, with business and school, I'll just say, hey, here's the two options. Here's some things you can do. I think you're going to learn more here. But this is good, too. But it's just more of that posture of, okay, I'm trying to make some decisions, so help me out on that, versus I'm just going to sit in a room by myself. And then whatever I get, I get. And it's good, it's good, good. But I know not everyone has that authority in the home, and I certainly didn't. And so a lot of it was just like, oh, God, what are you leading me to? But when you have that authority over you and you have sought that covering and God's blessed you with covering, then seek that, pursue that, and discern the will of God that way.
[26:08]
Podcast Host
Thank you for listening to the Crazy Love podcast. Join us next week for a new episode. But until then, for more resources from Crazy Love Ministries or to support the work of Crazy Love, please visit our website@crazylove.org.

Summary6 min read

Crazy Love Podcast – Staff Talks with Francis: How to Recognize God’s Leading
Date: July 29, 2026
Host: Crazy Love Ministries
Featured Speaker: Francis Chan

Episode Overview

This episode centers around Francis Chan’s candid reflections on discerning God’s leading in life and ministry. The discussion explores the tension between faithfully persisting in good works and recognizing moments when God is powerfully at work, moving ahead of one’s efforts. Francis emphasizes humility, faith, and submission—both to God and to spiritual authority—as essential attitudes for anyone desiring to follow God’s lead.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recognizing When God Is Leading vs. Simply Doing Good

Francis Chan shares the difference between routine ministry efforts and those rare, unmistakable moments when God is "pushing something" and you’re simply “caught in the middle of it.”
- “I think lately I’ve been seeing a contrast with certain things I do that are just, like, ministry tasks... Then there’s other things that you feel like, okay, God is. This is a God thing. He’s pushing something, and I’m just caught in the middle of it.” (01:00)
He describes a recent feeling that God is actively leading more than in past seasons, contrasting it with times of simply trying to be faithful.

2. Faith for 'Big Lifts' and Trusting God's Power

Illustrative story: Francis tells a story about bringing a bodybuilder onstage to demonstrate a point:
- If we believe God created the universe and raised the dead (the "50-pound curls"), why do we often doubt His ability to handle smaller challenges in our lives (“10-pound curls,” e.g., addictions or divisions)?
- “If we believe that God spoke the world into existence... but then some of our addictions... we just see it as like, ah, that’s impossible. No way. Cancer. Like, we just don’t want to be people like that, that if God is behind something... we have to stop thinking like mere humans.” (04:30)
Francis stresses the importance of maintaining faith that God can do the impossible, especially regarding unity in the church.

3. Movements Toward Unity in the Church

Francis discusses historical divisions in the church—ancient schisms and recent reconciliatory statements between branches of Christianity:
- He notes the significant but challenging lifting of ancient anathemas (mutual excommunications) between Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant churches, and the still-present reluctance to unite at the Communion table.
- “That’s a big deal to say, hey, I think we were wrong 1500 years ago... but let’s still not be at the same table. It’s like, okay, that’s kind of weird... but at least there’s movement.” (07:40)
- Reminds listeners that what looks impossible to humans is possible for God, and unity is at the heart of Christ’s prayer.

4. The Experience of 'God's Wind at Your Back'

Francis shares personal feelings from a recent gathering in Nashville, describing a sense that God’s Spirit was behind the unity efforts:
- “It feels very much like there’s a wind behind this. And I’m just kind of going with the flow... not forcing something.” (11:50)
Compares this to other times where ministry felt forced or simply “fine,” acknowledging both are part of the Christian journey (cites David and Solomon’s story – 2 Chronicles 6:7-8).

5. Balancing Zeal and Realism in Ministry

Memorable moment: Francis encourages not to exaggerate or minimize ("desaturate") the work of God, but to simply be honest and grateful for all He does—big or small.
- “Not everything is awesome and you don’t have to say it’s a move of God. You just go, that’s good.” (15:34)
He values both grand and humble expressions of ministry—whether caring for 20 street kids or small gatherings in Korea.

6. Retaining Childlike Wonder and Zeal

Francis reflects on staying grateful and excited for every opportunity, and not losing the childlike sense of wonder, even after many years in ministry.
- “...it doesn’t mean I’m going to speak to bigger crowds... I’m excited about every little gathering I get in. Like anything could happen right now. You guys, this is crazy. This is awesome.” (16:54)

Main Listener Question & Francis' Response

Q (17:28): How do you discern, especially in small, seemingly unfruitful ministries, whether to persist or move on when you neither feel God’s wind at your back nor opposition?

Francis’ Answer:

The importance of submission to spiritual authority:
- Personal discernment should be complemented by the counsel and covering of trusted leaders.
  - “That’s the beauty of spiritual authority and being under leaders... And this next thing that you’re thinking about, let’s just be careful...” (18:24)
Warns against the individualistic, go-it-alone mentality prevalent in American Christianity. Remaining rooted and consistent, even in difficult seasons, is often the greater act of faith.
- “It takes a lot more faith nowadays to be consistent and to work a job and get good at it... It’s hard to love people consistently.” (19:15)
Francis gives examples from his own life—remaining at Cornerstone for 16+ years, not moving every time there’s a new idea or perceived calling—and emphasizes the value of submitting to authority and being part of a bigger body.
He highlights lessons from 1 Corinthians 12: God distributes gifts purposely; no one has everything, so we need each other and must avoid a purely individualistic approach.
Practical application: Seek spiritual authority, discern within community, and be careful not to rush out independently based only on personal impression.
- “Let’s be very careful not to just have this individualistic American ‘I’m gonna go forge my way.’... There needs to be more of an uplifting of authority...” (23:33)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On faith for what’s possible:
“If we believe that God spoke the world into existence, that’s a pretty heavy lift... but some of our addictions, some of our problems today, we just see it as like, ah, that’s impossible... and we don’t want to be people like that.” (04:20)
On humility and unity:
“You see these moves, you know, with... schisms that took place in 4:31 and 4:51, and how, wow, suddenly they’re lifting these anathemas that are 1500 years old... but at least there’s movement.” (07:40)
On not exaggerating or minimizing God’s work:
“Not everything is awesome and you don’t have to say it’s a move of God. You just go, that’s good. And then there were other things that weren’t necessarily big... you just sense the presence of God with us.” (15:34)
On retaining excitement:
“I still got a lot of faith and I’m still excited about things and I still believe the best is yet to come... I just want to thank God for that.” (16:54)
On spiritual authority:
“That’s the beauty of spiritual authority and being under leaders... that is God protecting you and leading you through that.” (18:26)

Timestamps for Key Segments

[00:31] – Francis describes the difference between ministry as routine vs. being caught in a “God thing.”
[04:20] – The “dumbbell” illustration: faith for God’s impossible works.
[07:40] – Historical movements towards reconciliation and church unity.
[11:50] – Feeling God’s “wind at your back” vs. forcing things in ministry.
[15:34] – On realism, gratitude, and both big and small moves of God.
[16:54] – Maintaining zeal and childlike wonder in every gathering.
[17:28] – Listener question: discerning when to persist or move on in small ministries.
[18:24–25:00] – Francis’ detailed answer: value of spiritual authority, community discernment, and consistency.

Final Takeaways

Discernment in following God’s leading is an ongoing journey—part Spirit, part wisdom, and part humble submission to spiritual authority.
Faith means refusing to shrink God’s power to merely human expectations—He remains capable of the biggest reconciliations and the smallest miracles.
Community and leadership are protections and guides against individualism and impulsivity; discerning God’s will is best done together, not solo.
Never lose the joy, awe, and childlike faith in God’s ability to act, whether you’re part of something big or seemingly small.

For further resources or to support Crazy Love Ministries, visit crazylove.org.

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Transcript5 lines

[00:06]
Podcast Host
Welcome to the Crazy Love Podcast. Some opportunities require hard work, and others feel like God has gone before you. In today's Staff Talk, Francis shares what he's been learning about recognizing when the Lord is already at work and why humility, faith, and submission are essential if we want to follow where he's leading.
[00:31]
Francis Chan
Yeah, I. I think, you know, Rob was talking about earlier how, you know, the time in the jails is just so great. I mean, it. It really is the highlight of my week. Every time I get home, Lisa's like, how was it? I'm like, oh, this one was the best. And it just, you know, I think lately I've been seeing a contrast with certain things I do that are just, like, ministry tasks or things we're pursuing or trying to do. Then there's other things that you feel like, okay, God is. This is a God thing. He's pushing something, and I'm just caught in the middle of it. But it's just this idea that I think there's certain things we do in ministry that are good. They're fine. But then there's other times when you really sense, like, God's calling me into something. And I guess I've been feeling that more lately, which shows me that, wow, I think there's been a season of me just doing stuff, just trying to be faithful, but not necessarily feeling like a supernatural thing. So, like, for example, today you're. We're reading in Joshua, not San Francisco, but the rest of. We are church globally. We're, you know, in Joshua, and we're talking about, you know, you're reading about Rahab and the spies going to her, and she's like, okay, yes, I'm going to hide you guys, because we all know what your God's about to do. And then, you know, today was more the Gibeonites and. And them having to fake like, oh, you know, just have pity on us. And then, you know, Joshua asked like, why'd you do that? And he's like, no. Ever since Moses, we knew your God, you know, so we had to do something out of desperation. And it's like, okay, this is our God, and you can lose sight, and you don't want to be that person that doesn't have faith in those things. I showed you that. The screenshot of the guy whose cancer was healed. But it's interesting because I talked to him on the phone because he was like, I didn't know if you'd remember me. Of course I remember you. He goes, but do you remember that time you Called me on stage, I go, no. And he says, you know, because he was a big guy, he's kind of like a bodybuilder guy. And he goes, yeah, you had like a 40 or 50 pound dumbbell. And you said, how many of you guys. And you asked me, do you think you could curl this thing 20 times? And I looked down like, yeah, I could do it 20 times. And we asked the crowd, like, how many you think he can do it 20 times? And you know, it's decent weight. So it was kind of split. And you know, but so then he does it, he does his 20 reps. And I said something along the line of, okay, now I got another dumbbell here and it's £10. How many of you think he could do that 20 times? And you know, it was kind of like this rhetorical, stupid question. And the whole point was, okay, if we believe that God spoke the world into existence, that's a pretty heavy lift. If we believe he raised the dead. And we're like, yeah, no, no, I believe that. I believe that. But then some of our addictions, some of our, you know, problems today, we just see it as like, ah, that's impossible. No way cancer. Like, we just don't want to be people like that, that if God is behind something. And so this whole project we're in with just really believing that God wants unity at the communion table. Like, it's like, how big of a lift do we really think that is for God? And if God is behind this, we have to stop thinking like mere humans. And, and I mean, this was Christ's prayer. If I want to believe in my prayers, I got to at least believe in Jesus prayers that he was praying according to the will of Jesus and he's praying for this oneness in the church. And you see these moves, you know, with the thing that you made with how we got here and these schisms that took place in 4:31 and 4:51, and how, wow, suddenly they're lifting these anathemas that are 1500 years old. They still won't come to the table together. But that's a big deal to say, hey, I think we were wrong 1500 years ago. And we're still kind of saying. We were kind of saying the same thing, you know, the difference between the hypostatic union and the prosopic union. I think we're kind of saying the same thing. We shouldn't have split up and had union tables 1500 years ago. So we agree on that. But let's still not be at the same table. It's like, okay, that's kind of weird, but okay. But at least there's movement. That's crazy to lift something that's 1500 years old and then to look at Vatican II and the lifting of anathemas between the Orthodox and the Catholic Church, like, wow, you guys said you're anathema and you're excommunicated and your communion is not valid. Your communion is not valid. Now a thousand years later, you're rethinking that. And then just what happened with the speaking of the Nicene Creed by the Pope and the leader of the Orthodox Church. That was just less than a year ago. Thousand year old, you know, divisions that you'd go, oh, that. That can't happen. You can't fix that. And it's like, no, that can be fixed. And then I guess that's what I felt in Nashville was like, gosh, this doesn't feel like something we're trying to do, but it feels very much like there's a wind behind this. And I'm just kind of going with the flow and just kind of moving where it doesn't feel like I'm forcing something. And there are times in life, in ministry, where I feel like I'm forcing something or trying to make something happen, which I don't think there's wrong in that. I think that's just part of the process. I think that's part of what you see in the Book of Acts. So I was headed this way and the Spirit stopped me. It's like, well, there's nothing wrong with you heading that way. You're just trying to do something for the Lord. Very much like when David was going to build the temple. And then I love that passage. I think it's 2nd Chronicles, 4 verses 7 and 8, or 6 verses 7 and 8, where Solomon says, it was in my father's heart to build this temple. And God told him it was good that that was in your heart. Nevertheless, it's not you that's going to do it, but your son, Solomon. And so I think there'll be moments in our life where we're doing things that it was good that it was in your heart, that you. I thought I was going to do this. And you know, and God says, nevertheless, that's not the way it's going to go, but Solomon's going to do it. And so then there's this blessing upon Solomon. And I guess I. I'm feeling some of those things, you know, with the recording and the songs and just the relationships and the conversations. And I just. I just don't want us to lose faith in those things. Because maybe sometimes we try to do things and it's not necessarily bad. It's probably a good thing that that was in your heart. You pursued it, but you didn't sense the breath of God being behind you. And that's okay. It's not I screwed up. But it's the Lord saying, it's good that that was in your heart. Nonetheless, it's not the plan for you right now. But then every once in a while you get into something where you're going, okay, this is weird. This is a lot of good stuff kind of heading this way. And I think one of the things I forgot who said it, it was during the time in Nashville. They were quoting this other songwriter friend of ours. And I don't know if I got the person right, so I won't even say his name, but he says, I always try to position myself so that the wind of God is at my back. You know, you just try to sense where's God going. And then, okay, this is versus in my face. And again, the in my face doesn't necessarily mean you're in sin and he's blocking it. It's just more. And that's not really it. But that's good that you're pursuing this. And so just been thanking God for feeling like there's more and more things that I'm not pushing. It's just kind of happening. And just to look in your life and believe for those things, because we don't ever want to lack faith and just go to that human, here's what's reasonable, here's what's possible. But to look at the scriptures and go, wow, if he did that, that's like that 50 pound lift, really, comparatively, I'm looking at a 10 pound thing. And so of course he can. And so now it's like, lord, is the wind at my back? And am I seeing these things? And if so, that's exciting. And it's not always like. It's not always like this becomes this big movement. Because when I was in Asia, there were times when I just thought, gosh, we're just trying to force something here. I mean, it's fine, it's good technically, but do I go, oh, that was awesome. That was a move of God. Some people will say that about anything, but sometimes it's just more like the realism is like, you know, not everything is awesome and you don't have to Say it's a move of God. You just go, that's good. And then there were other things that weren't necessarily big. For example, it was great being in the Philippines. Philistines with the Philistines and the Philippines. And I was with Billy and Sharon and they're just caring for, you know, like 20 street kids and been faithfully doing this for years. I think Sharon spent like 20 something years doing this. And you just go, gosh, this is beautiful. And it's of the Lord, their hearts, and it's just sweet. Now, is it as giant movements? No, you're just faithful to these people. And then when I was in Korea, I was just with a small group of leaders and you just sense the presence of God with us. And yes, God's doing big things through them. But it wasn't that. It was the community, it was the love, it was the gosh, soak this in. This is beautiful. I'm just in the presence of God with you guys and we're all feeling it. And that's what I felt in the jail cell yesterday with the, you know, it was a smaller group and it was all in Spanish. So, you know, I can only say so much, but it just. I don't have time to talk about all the things that happened there. But it was like, God's with us. This is so cool. This is so great. Thank you, Lord. I'm so enjoying this. And just times with the Lord doesn't have to be a massive thing, but I think it's just important that we don't have to exaggerate things and you don't have to feel like you've got a opposite of exaggerate. Desaturate things, minimize. Oh, that's good. Paul. Got it before you downplay. Good, good. Still no word. So anyways, I'm excited. The one thing I do tell people when I go speak to leaders or whatever else, it's like, I don't want to minimize what God's done in my life too, because, okay, I'm not the most intelligent leader. I'm not just the best leader. I'm not the. But I still got a lot of faith and I'm still excited about things and I still believe the best is yet to come. Still, like, it doesn't mean I'm going to speak to bigger crowds because I'm not even really wanting that. I don't want that personally. I just. But I'm excited about every little gathering I get in. Like anything could happen right now. You guys, this is crazy. This is awesome. Like, just that I still feel that I just go, wow, that's really cool. I just want to thank God for that. That's a grace of something he puts in you where you still have this zeal and this childlike wonderful. And I do. And I believe that's something God did in my life and I'm thankful for that. And I believe there's a wind in that. And that was just my heart. Like when I was with the Korean group, there was just like, gosh, you guys, you guys are really cranking along. But I really love you guys and I don't want you to lose this fire because here's ways that the enemy. I've seen so many people lose that wonder and that excitement, and I still have it. And even grateful. I said, you get to an age where you're just grateful even for the hard times. You know, it's like you start realizing, I'm grateful for that conflict because I made it through it and I'm stronger now and I know more conflicts about to come. Especially as we pursue unity. It's going to get a lot thicker and go, okay, God, that's cool that I get to suffer some of this rejection for you. Like, it's like, oh, I'm finally there now when we're in the middle of it, I might not feel that way completely, but by the grace of God, I'll rebound and I'll be fine. But it was cool just to love on people like that and look at young leaders and go, oh, God, protect them, them, keep them excited when they're 60, keep them still in wonder and believing in these things. And you know, same for you guys. Just remember the things that God's done that were the 50 pound lift and go, gosh, there's things I'm doubting for. That's really dumb to doubt that God could do curls with 10 pounds. And yeah, it's just fun. It's still fun. It's still exciting. I'm still believing for anything. So I have a question. Yes.
[17:28]
Podcast Guest or Interviewer
How do you discern for people who are in ministry and they're like, I don't feel the wind of God against my back, but I also don't feel like God opposing me. Right. But ministry is like, not easy. It's a struggle. I haven't seen much fruit and I just have these 20 street kids or I have this like small little house church where I have this like tiny little thing. How do you know when to like, just say, all right, like, this is probably not it? And I need to fold it or like, no, this is something that I need to continue to struggle in and press on, even though I don't have any sense from the Lord, like, shut it down or whatever. And you're just kind of like, there,
[18:25]
Francis Chan
that's good. First, I would say that's the beauty of spiritual authority and being under leaders. Talking to a young buck last night that was over for dinner, but you know, he's like, hey, I'm thinking about doing this thing. And I was like, okay, well, let's walk through the last three years of your life. You know, it's this, then this and this, this, and then you're feeling, I'm not rooted. And I said, well, you know, and this next thing that you're thinking about, let's just be careful because your generation is very much about like, ah, this, you know, I'm going to go by faith to this place. And it takes a lot more faith nowadays to be consistent and to work a job and get good at it and actually develop a skill and become this useful part of the body. It's hard to love people consistently and. And I said, you know, even my own example, you know, people go, gosh, yeah, I want to be like Francis, he just like, knew God was calling him and he just left. And I'm like, well, that was 16 and a half years at Cornerstone. And now I've been about 16 years and doing house church. It's not like every month it's like, whoa, where's God calling me? And it's, I don't want people look at that and go, oh, yeah, let's just go wherever the wind blows in the sense, there is a sense of, you don't know where the spirit's moving this or that. But, you know, if I could go back again and redo anything, it would be just a stronger commitment to submission to authority and loving authority. And I feel like I was pretty good even as a young man at obeying orders and coming under leadership. And so that's a big part of the Christian life. In fact, that's where I, you know, as we're reading First Corinthians 12, which you guys aren't because you didn't come under that leadership. But as I look at the First Corinthians 12 this time through, like, there was a thing in which, like the different gifts, I never noticed. Maybe I've noticed and I just re noticed where he says that God orchestrates so that there would be no division in the body. There was a way in which, like, I'm not going to give this person ever. I'm not gonna gift away with everything. If he's a liver, he's a liver. That's it. So that he doesn't just run off, say, I got it. You know, you're gonna notice pretty soon, wow, a liver by itself is ridiculous. Orchestrate. You're gonna figure it out sooner or later. And so there's something about that. And I say this in the middle macro level because I go, gosh, there is something awesome about the Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic Church, as far as authority that we don't. We're not great at. Because with the releasing of all the gifts and everyone sharing their thoughts and their gifting, there comes this sense of my opinions just as important as yours. And so we're always running into at. We are church people that just feel like their opinion's so great. And I don't come under the opinions of the authority because I'm equal to them. You know, even though they wouldn't say that, eventually it becomes, hey, I have different ideas than you guys. And we tend to attract those people. And so I was like, well, I sat down and heard from the Lord that I'm supposed to do that. It's like, well, how do you argue with that? And so I would say, you know, seek some spiritual authority. First and foremost, that is God protecting you and leading you through that. And sometimes this generation where we have so many options, if I can just go off by myself, we tend to do that. But that's where I think I have this longing of, like, gosh, I want to be under leadership. I don't want to just create my own thing. And that's where I'm meeting some of these priests and going, I need you versus you. Go, do your thing. We don't need you. I'm like, gosh, we need some of what they carry, but we can run quickly to, okay, but then that means this is it. I go, I get it, I get it. It's not easy, but I need some of what they do. I have no problem saying that. And that's what they're saying coming this way. It's like, oh, we so need what these guys are doing. And so when we're determining the will of God, I would just say, let's be very careful not to just have this individualistic American. I'm gonna go forge my way. Because that's really what we lift up often. And there needs to be more of an uplifting of authority and going, yeah, I don't think I. And that's what I've, you know, really loved about my children. It's just I give them their autonomy. You do what you want to do to a degree, you know, but there's certain times it's like, like, no, no, no, that's not going to happen. But for the most part, it's like, hey, go do this thing. But they've been very, very submissive, very much, like, trusting. And that's why, you know, I think about Zeke and Ellie right now and, you know, him wanting counsel of, hey, what do you think I should do on this? And it's like, ah, you know, I think you should stay. I think you should work. I think you should do this. And, you know, just like, okay, I think you're right. I think I'm going to do that. You know, but he doesn't just seek the Lord on his own. And then with Ellie, with business and school, I'll just say, hey, here's the two options. Here's some things you can do. I think you're going to learn more here. But this is good, too. But it's just more of that posture of, okay, I'm trying to make some decisions, so help me out on that, versus I'm just going to sit in a room by myself. And then whatever I get, I get. And it's good, it's good, good. But I know not everyone has that authority in the home, and I certainly didn't. And so a lot of it was just like, oh, God, what are you leading me to? But when you have that authority over you and you have sought that covering and God's blessed you with covering, then seek that, pursue that, and discern the will of God that way.
[26:08]
Podcast Host
Thank you for listening to the Crazy Love podcast. Join us next week for a new episode. But until then, for more resources from Crazy Love Ministries or to support the work of Crazy Love, please visit our website@crazylove.org.