3 Steps to Handle Any Difficult Conversation & Negotiate With Confidence with Kwame Christian

Summary

Podcast Summary: "3 Steps to Handle Any Difficult Conversation & Negotiate With Confidence with Kwame Christian"

Podcast: Creating Confidence with Heather Monahan
Host: Heather Monahan
Guest: Kwame Christian (Author, Speaker, CEO of American Negotiation Institute)
Date: November 4, 2025
Episode Theme: Leveraging Compassionate Curiosity and Negotiation Skills for Confidence in Difficult Conversations

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Episode Overview

In this dynamic episode, Heather Monahan welcomes negotiation expert Kwame Christian to share actionable strategies for handling tough conversations and negotiating with self-assurance. Drawing from his personal transformation from people-pleaser to negotiation authority, Kwame breaks down his Compassionate Curiosity framework and explores the psychological barriers that keep people from advocating for themselves—whether in the workplace, home, or life at large. Listeners are treated to a lively discussion about self-reflection, the difference between power and leverage, and how to cultivate real confidence when stakes are high.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Kwame’s Journey: From People-Pleaser to Negotiation Expert

• Roots of People-Pleasing

  • Kwame shares a formative childhood story of social isolation and the vow to always make people like him ([02:22]).
  • “On that day, I said to myself, okay, I will never allow myself to feel this alone again. I'm going to do whatever it takes to make friends.” — Kwame Christian ([03:15])

• Turning Point

  • Advice from a mentor: “Kwame, you're not going to be able to accomplish those things if you're not willing to have these tough conversations. There's a difference between being liked and being respected.” ([04:10])
  • Exposure therapy approach: Practicing difficult conversations as a means to overcome fear ([05:22])

• Discovering Negotiation as a Learnable Skill

  • A serendipitous law school class opened Kwame’s eyes to negotiation as something one can improve through practice ([05:22]).
  • Success in negotiation competitions reinforced his passion and led to the American Negotiation Institute ([07:13]).

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Identifying the Root of Communication Barriers

• Performance Gaps & Individual Barriers

  • People struggle for different reasons: people-pleasing, fear of hurting others, fear of losing relationships, or reacting aggressively ([09:11]).
  • Importance of self-reflection to recognize behavioral patterns and emotional triggers ([10:23]).

• The Role of Emotion in Negotiation and Communication

  • Emotions are not directives; they are signals. Understanding the message behind them is key to effective interaction ([10:42]).
  • Most people lack emotional management skills due to gaps in education and socialization ([12:45]).

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The Compassionate Curiosity Framework (Core Model)

Simple, Three-Step Approach for Difficult Conversations:

1. Acknowledge and Validate Emotions
   • Lowers the “emotional temperature” of the conversation.
2. Get Curious with Compassion
   • Ask open-ended questions with empathy to build rapport and uncover challenges.
3. Joint Problem-Solving
   • Frame the issue as “you and me versus the problem,” not “me versus you.”
   • Cycle back to Step 1 if emotions escalate.
   • “It allows you to know what to say and when to say it without having to feel forced to stick within a rigid framework.” — Kwame Christian ([00:03], [19:09])

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Power, Leverage, and Creativity in Negotiation

• Power vs. Leverage

  • Power is visible (authority, rank); leverage is the unseen strategic advantage ([21:10]).
  • "If you recognize, wait, they might have power, but I have leverage. Now your job is to figure out where your leverage is." — Kwame Christian ([21:56])

• Building Leverage

  • Strengthen your alternative options (BATNA) to increase confidence and bargaining power ([26:08]).

• Overcoming Focus on Power

  • Psychological habit to focus on threat limits our ability to see our own leverage ([25:49]).
  • Use emotional regulation and ‘bad idea races’ to spark creativity and see opportunities ([27:50]).

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Overcoming Internal Roadblocks & Small Steps to Change

• Incremental Change

  • Start with the “minimum effective dose”—tiny, low-risk steps to break inertia and fear of big change ([30:57]).
  • Test assumptions by purposefully slowing down and observing that feared outcomes often don’t materialize.

• Practical Example

  • Kwame describes walking a stressed teammate through delivering a client project late to prove that disaster wouldn’t strike, building resilience for future situations ([30:57]).

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Empathy and Persuasion: Tools for Better Outcomes

• Egocentric vs. Empathetic Persuasion

  • Persuasion succeeds when you meet people on their terms—not by reiterating what matters to you ([36:07]).
  • “There’s a difference between being right and being persuasive.” — Kwame Christian ([36:07])

• The Empathy Loop

  1. Listen.
  2. Summarize in your own words (contextualize, don’t parrot).
  3. Double-check understanding (“Did I get that right?”) ([40:15]).
  • Use when conversations reach inflection points, when unsure what to say, or if the other person’s emotional tone escalates.

• Making Others Feel Heard

  • Often, simply feeling heard removes barriers to agreement and collaboration ([38:37]).
  • “When the person feels heard, that thing that they were complaining about, that thing that they wanted you to do, or…were unwilling to do, that barrier just magically disappears.” — Kwame Christian ([38:37])

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Deciding When to Walk Away

• Productivity vs. Relationship Endings

  • Distinguish between a conversation losing momentum (take breaks, schedule follow-ups) and recognizing truly toxic relationships ([43:05]).
  • Use patterns to inform whether to persist or ultimately disengage.

• Practical Boundaries

  • “If the person is constantly draining you…give them an opportunity to get back on track…If they’re not willing, you need to be willing to step away.” ([43:05])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Rewriting One’s Story:
  “I was not born this way. I was built this way.” — Kwame Christian on confidence ([02:22])

• On Simplicity:
  “Under pressure, you’re not going to remember anything else.” — Kwame Christian (about keeping frameworks simple) ([00:03], [19:09])

• On Power and Leverage:
  “People focus on the power, but miss their own leverage.” — Reflection from Heather’s experience ([23:16])

• On Listening:
  “You are going to be more persuasive based on the questions that you ask, more so than the statements that you make.” — Kwame Christian ([38:37])

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Key Timestamps for Reference

• Compassionate Curiosity Framework: [00:03], [19:09]
• Kwame’s People-Pleasing Story: [02:22]
• Role of Emotions in Negotiation: [10:42]
• Power vs. Leverage: [21:10]
• Empathy Loop Description: [40:15]
• Deciding When to Walk Away: [43:05]

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Resources and Connect with Kwame

• Podcast: Negotiate Anything ([46:54])
• Books: Finding Confidence in Conflict and How to Have Difficult Conversations About Race
• Website & Speaking: kwamechristian.com | American Negotiation Institute

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Overall Tone

The episode conveys hope, practical wisdom, and actionable confidence-building, punctuated by personal stories from both Heather and Kwame. Their exchange is candid, encouraging, and grounded in the belief that anyone can learn to handle tough conversations with courage and skill.

Transcript

[Heather Monahan]

What are some of the strategies that you teach that some of the listeners can use in their life?

[Kwame Christian]

I want to keep this simple, so I came up with this framework called Compassionate Curiosity. It's a simple three part framework because I recognize that under pressure you're not going to remember anything else. So I wanted to simplify this so you could use it internally for emotion management, but also externally in the conversation with the other person. Step one is acknowledge and validate the emotions in order to lower the emotional temperature of the room. Step two is get curious with compassion. So we're going to ask open ended questions with a compassionate tone to empathize, build rapport and understand what the challenge is. And then step three is use joint problem solving. It's not me versus you, it's you and me versus the problem. We're going to work together to try to figure this out. If they get emotional again, you just cycle back to step one. So it allows you to know what to say and when to say it without having to feel forced to stick within a rigid framework.

[Heather Monahan]

Come on this journey with me each week. When you join me, we are going to chase down our goals, overcome adversity, and set you up for a better tomorrow.

[Kwame Christian]

Fasten your seatbelts. I'm ready for my close up.

[Heather Monahan]

Hi and welcome back. I'm so excited for you to meet our guest this week, Kwame Christian. He's a first generation Caribbean American from Ohio. Transformed his life through a negotiation course in law school, revealing that negotiation is a learnable skill. This discovery led him to excel in negotiation competitions, win national awards, and ultimately found the American Negotiation Institute. His personal journey from a people pleaser to a master negotiator is relatable, inspiring, and resonates deeply with audiences, empowering them to handle challenging conversations confidently. You know, we love that. He's a bestselling author, keynote speaker, and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. His top negotiation podcast, negotiate anything, your girl was Just on it has over 15 million downloads in 180 plus countries. His TEDx talk Finding Confidence in Conflict has 650,000 views. That's more than mine.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Whoa.

[Heather Monahan]

His book Finding Confidence in Conflict and how to have Difficult Conversations about Race are both bestsellers. They've made significant impact. He's a top LinkedIn voice, been featured in Forbes, NPR, USA Day, NCNBC. Kwame, thank you for being here today with us.

[Kwame Christian]

Heather, thank you for that introduction. Thanks for having me. I'm excited for this one.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Oh my gosh.

[Heather Monahan]

I'm excited for you to be here too. Okay, so let's take it back. Wait a minute. People pleaser. You are an og. People pleaser. Tell me about that and how you took the corner.

[Kwame Christian]

Yes. And I think a lot of times people look at me now and they don't believe it. And so the thing is, for me right now, when it comes to the confident communicator I am, I was not born this way. I was built this way. And I had to learn how to overcome these challenges. And, you know, like with most psychological challenges, it all goes back to childhood, back when I was growing up. And so, like you said, I'm a first generation Caribbean American. And when I was growing up in a small town called Tiffin, Ohio, I was the only person who looked like me and sounded like me. I had a strong accent at the time. And I remember when I was in first grade, there was an incident on the playground during recess where I was trying to find people to play with, and I just couldn't find anybody who wanted to play with me. I would go with one group and I would say, hey, can I play with you? And they would say, no. I went to another group. Can I play with you? They would say, no. And then time was running out. I was just, like, desperate for some connection. And I said, can I play with you? No. And then the bell rang, and then I went inside, tried to keep it together. And then I just burst out into tears. And the teacher said, well, Kwame, what's wrong? I said, nobody would play with me. And so, Heather, on that day, I said to myself, okay, I will never allow myself to feel this alone again. I'm going to do whatever it takes to make friends. People are going to like me. And I just went on this charm offensive. So I said, whatever it takes. I'm going to make as many friends as possible. And when you think about from that day, first grade, all the way to graduation, you would look at me and say that I was successful in that. Captain of the basketball team, very popular. I literally knew everybody in the school by name. Not an exaggeration. Going through the hallways, drink. Class was such an energy drain because I was saying hi to everybody by name, senior to freshman. And the thing that people would miss, though, is that they wouldn't see all of the silent compromises I was making in order to maintain those friends. So I'd always agree when I disagreed and just kind of get along. And I remember that there was a time when I was in college and I was talking to one of my mentors. I would tell him about what I wanted to accomplish in life. And he said, kwame, you're not going to be able to accomplish those things if you're not willing to have these tough conversations. There's a difference between being liked and being respected. And that's what really put me on this journey of figuring a way out of people pleasing in order to stand up for myself and have the tough conversations that I need to have.

[Heather Monahan]

Wow. It is shocking to look at you now because you don't look, I guess, I don't know, in your mind, like a people pleaser, looks like a person. I don't know why in my mind, I would see it that way, but I definitely do. So what are some of the steps that you took once you made that decision? How did you change things? Because I do understand what you're saying. That was so sad that you were this little kid that had no one to play with. And I could see the drive to want to get people to like you. Well, then, now you got that place. You achieved that goal. How do you suddenly unwind it? Or do you unwind it?

[Kwame Christian]

Yeah. And so I was fortunate enough to study psychology. That was my undergrad degree. So I pretty much created this program for myself. I decided to treat my fear of tough conversations just like a phobia that I could get over. And so I said, okay, I'm going to engage in some exposure therapy, so I'm going to have these tough conversations as much as I can. And so I started to stand up for myself, have these conversations. It was clunky. It wasn't perfect. There wasn't much skill behind it, but I was proud of myself every time I stood up and did it. Then when I got into law school, I stumbled into this negotiation class. And honestly, the only reason I took it was because it fit into my schedule. I had no concept of what negotiation was at all, but I instantly fell in love because I said, oh, my gosh, the ability to stand up for yourself and have these conversations, this is a skill, not a talent. You can learn and get better. So I became obsessed. I just kept on studying, studying, learning, learning. And they had these negotiation competitions at the school. I was so disconnected from this, Heather. I didn't even know that OSU had the top that dispute resolution program in the country. It just was not on my radar. And so when we had these negotiation competitions at the school, it was very competitive. It's you and your partner going head to head against another law student and their partner in a fictional case. And then there was a. There would Be judges watching the negotiation and grading you to see how you went, how well you did. And we won the competition at the school, and then we went to the American Bar association competition in Ottawa, Ontario, and we won that competition, too. And I was hooked. And so I said, I don't know how, but somehow this thing, this negotiation thing is going to be my thing. I don't know how I'm going to make it my thing, but this will be my thing. Wow.

[Heather Monahan]

I mean, that's kind of divinely led that you ended up in that class. Now that you look back, don't you see it that way?

[Kwame Christian]

Yeah, absolutely. That's the thing. When you're at this point, kind of toward the. When you're at a mature point in your career, you can tell these stories in a way where it has a nice little bow and it seems all perfect at the time. It doesn't feel perfect, you know, you're just kind of moving through it. Things happen and you're making the best move. You, obviously you can, but you're 100% right. When I look back, it seems like fate. Everything was perfect. Because the thing is, when I look back at those challenges, when it came to standing up for myself and having this tough conversations, that was necessary. It was necessary for me to be the man I am today. And if I didn't go through those things, then I wouldn't have the empathy required to create what I've created for the people who need it the most. Because I recognize that there is a disconnect in negotiation in particular, but communication in general. When we're giving advice to people, a lot of times we are simply giving recipes to people who are afraid to get in the kitchen. It's not just about understanding what to say and knowing the strategies and tactics. It's about recognizing that there's a psychological and emotional barrier that holds people back. So for me, when I was trying to figure out how can I use this tool and make my whole career about negotiation, tough conversations and communication, I realized that just like I had trouble with people pleasing, I figured, wait a second, there might be other people who are living very limited lives because of this. And so that's what led me to start the American Negotiation Institute.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Wow.

[Heather Monahan]

That is incredible. I love. I love it because we were talking about this earlier. Whatever it is we teach about oftentimes is because we actually need it preached to us ourselves, so that we can help ourselves remind to show up in that way. So when you work with people now, you have tremendous empathy for them. What what do you see most people struggling. Struggling with like, what is the, the common theme that you're seeing? Is it the people pleasing? Is it just being a. The fear of difficult conversation? What do you see happening? Or what are the asks from you most often?

[Kwame Christian]

Yeah, so everybody has a performance gap that, that is holding them back, but it's going to be slightly different for different people. So for me, it was people pleasing. For some people it is the fear of losing the relationship. Some people it is the fear of hu people's feelings. They are deathly afraid of hurting people's feelings. So they don't say what needs to be said. But then sometimes it's the opposite. Sometimes, you know, with fear we have the fight, flight, freeze and fawn response. And so sometimes that fear might lead people to lash out. So sometimes the coaching that people need isn't necessarily, hey, you need to step up and have the conversation. There's some people who are too eager to have these conversations and smack people down. It's like, hey, let's dial this back. And I think when it comes to understanding what our performance gap is, we have to be, we have to keep it real with ourselves and do a bit of introspection to recognize where our, our thoughts are misaligned from our behaviors and where our behaviors are leading to outcomes that are not well adjusted for what it is that we want. And it's going to be slightly different for everybody. So we have to understand what's holding us back on the inside. And then my goal was always to simplify the process on the outside.

[Heather Monahan]

So it starts with this self reflection.

[Kwame Christian]

Yes, for sure, 100%.

[Heather Monahan]

And how does someone do that? Are you saying, like I'm just going to give the example of work? Because it seems like the obvious one. If you're having a difficult time dealing with one person at work, you're supposed to self reflect first versus saying what's happening in the exchange.

[Kwame Christian]

Well, I would say this, I would start off with how are we feeling in that moment? Because a lot of times when it comes to emotional intelligence and understanding the role that emotion plays in this process, we often take our emotions as directives. Our emotions always come with some kind of activity attached. Even if the activity is avoidance, that is some kind of activity. But what we have to learn is that the emotions are signals. They are, they, they come with messages. What is the message that I need to receive here? Maybe the message is just that this is a conversation of consequence that needs to happen. Maybe it's a warning signal that you're dealing with somebody who's toxic or problematic, right? And so we have to take the time to figure out what, what is happening inside of us because the more clarity we get internally, the more clarity we can have externally. Because if we are misunderstanding the emotional signal, then we might end up fighting our own internal psychological projections. We're not talking about navigating the conversation. In reality we are. We're blinded by the shadows within our own mind. And then we can't have an effective conversation because we're not seeing the situation effectively or clearly.

[Heather Monahan]

Oh my gosh. That's so interesting. That just triggered a memory for me as someone I had dinner with the other night who's younger than I am, super successful, very smart man, wonderful person. But I kept noticing throughout dinner, he's telling me different stories through his life and his day and his week, whatever. And he's getting angry about very similar situations with different people. And it was finally made me laugh and I laughed out loud to him. I said, you know what's funny? I said, I'm a lot older than you, so obviously have a lot more wisdom than you. Okay, so let's start there. And I would not have known this at your age. You know, he's 20 years younger than me. I said, but here's the thing. You're overreacting and getting angry at how other people feel. What? Who gave you that right, bro? Like, what are you talking about? And it was so. He didn't see that in himself. And actually even me pointing it out to him was very hard for him to understand. Most people understand like what's actually happening within them.

[Kwame Christian]

No, no, that's the thing. Think about this. I don't want to turn this into railing against the education system. I mean, we don't do a good job of teaching people the things that are most important. You know, we don't know how to balance a checkbook or manage our finances. Those are some kind of, those are like more professional omissions. But on the personal side, we don't teach emotion management in school. Most people don't take classes on that in K through 12 or in college unless they're studying psychology. We don't teach how to have difficult conversations, how to communicate, how to use empathy as a skill, not just a feeling. We don't understand those things. And so then when somebody is an adult, they might be chronologically an adult, but they are still dealing with childlike self regulation skills because they haven't had the chance to, to actually develop those. So no, I really don't think most people truly understand what's going on inside and therefore it makes it really difficult for them to find realistic solutions on the outside.

[Heather Monahan]

Meet a different guest each week.

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[Heather Monahan]

I asked you to try to find your passion. So when you put the people you work with through that exercise, does it take a long time for them to grip hold of it or are they able to work through some basics?

[Kwame Christian]

Yeah, I think. Let me answer it in two different ways. So if I'm coaching people, usually one deep conversation can get through there because I can ask the right questions to help them to identify what those challenges are. But a lot of times in the corporate space, I do group trainings, so those end up being more tactical. So I have to let people know what those barriers could be, but focus more on the tactics, the external side, what they need to do in order to achieve those specific outcomes. So in the corporate side, it's kind of challenging because I know I can give the people the skills that they need to get the outcomes that they want in work within those narrow contexts. I can recognize that. But one of the things that I always love to do, I bring just as many personal examples from my life and other people's life as I do professional examples. Because for me, still fighting that battle that I talked about at the beginning, I said, there are people who are living limited lives because they cannot have these tough conversations. So I always tell people, I say, listen, I guarantee you after you're done with this training, you will be better negotiators. You'll understand what strategies and tactics you need to get the outcomes that you want. And you'll be better at work, I guarantee you that. But if you do not leave here thinking critically about how you can use these same skills in your personal life with the people that you care about the most, then I have failed. That is my ulterior motive. I want to be clear on that, you know, so I want to sprinkle that in there just to trigger that curiosity for more exploration. But oftentimes when I'm doing corporate events, my. My mandate is to make sure that it is optimized for the professional outcomes that the organizers want.

[Heather Monahan]

Sure. But I totally agree, like all these strategies should be used throughout your life as Long as you can be thoughtful about it and intentional in advance. Okay, so what are some of the strategies that you teach that some of the listeners can use in their life?

[Kwame Christian]

Yeah, so again, I want to keep this simple. So I came up with this framework called Compassionate Curiosity. And so it's a simple three part framework because I recognize that under pressure you're not going to remember anything else. That's one of the biggest mistakes people make with negotiation training and advice. You give somebody this incredible beautiful framework that will be inaccessible to them when they actually need it because of so much pressure and stress. So I wanted to simplify this. And so our framework is Compassionate Curiosity and I've designed it strategically so you could use it internally for the internal conversation and negotiation you have to have with yourself for emotion management, but also externally in the conversation with the other person. So step one is acknowledge and validate the emotions in order to lower the emotional temperature of the room. Step two is get curious with compassion. So we're going to ask open ended questions with a compassionate tone to empathize, build rapport and understand what the challenge is. And then step three is use joint problem solving. So this is a win, win negotiation. It's not me versus you, it's you and me versus the problem. We're going to work together to try to figure, figure this out. But it's a fluid mental model. So if there's an emotional issue, you know you're in step one, acknowledge and validate the emotions. If emotions are fine, you can move to step two. Just get curious. But if in any of the frame parts of the framework, if they get emotional again, you just cycle back to step one. So it allows you to know what to say and when to say it without having to feel forced to stick within a rigid framework.

[Heather Monahan]

Wow. I love, I love the idea of keeping it so simple. Too often we over complicate things and, and gosh. I know with negotiation in particular, you will hear so many different strategies. And it was funny when you were saying earlier about, you made a comment about relationships and you know someone who has a fear of losing the relationship. It immediately triggered in my mind an old teaching that I had heard which is never go to a negotiation table. And I'm thinking in business, you know, having fearing more to lose than the other person or else you've already lost. Do you believe in any of those type of strategies or do you agree with those kinds of teachings things?

[Kwame Christian]

Yeah, there's a lot of wisdom in some of the classics. Right. The person who needs the Deal the most loses. And when you think about this, it helps us to do a deeper analysis on power and leverage. So at the end of the day, when it comes to negotiation, in negotiation and persuasion terms, power and leverage are pretty much exactly the same in terms of impact because they are both simply tools of influence. You can use leverage to influence people to do what you want. You can use power to influence people to do what you want. But power and leverage are not the same. So power is coming from a source that is established. So authority you can see that rank in ranks within an organization, in the size of a company. The power is very easy to identify. Leverage is not as easy to identify because leverage is strategic advantage. And it might not be readily apparent to the person on the other side who does not have the leverage. And it might not be apparent to the person who has the leverage. So let me give you an example. So let's say you're within a company and you are negotiating with your boss. And the negotiation is about the strategic direction of the company. The boss has all the power. They can say, this is the way we're doing, doing it regardless. So they have all the power. And so you often feel powerless because when you see power, you focus on that power and it re emphasizes your own lack of power. But if you recognize, wait, they might have power, but I have leverage. Now your job is to figure out where your leverage is. And that might be from the fact that you are the boots on the. You actually know what's happening, you've actually done the thing and they haven't. They have a conceptual, theoretical idea. You've actually tried the things that they think would be a good idea and you know it wouldn't be a good idea. So going into that conversation, you can have a conversation with yourself to figure out your unique source of leverage. And then you can bring it up in the negotiation in a non arrogant type of way to let the person know, hey, listen, I deserve to be at this table too. And I have something to say. And once you can let them know that you have that leverage, then that is a tool of influence that you could use at the negotiation table too.

[Heather Monahan]

Oh my gosh, you just triggered this memory for me. That is so crazy. So when you talk about the difference between power versus leverage and oftentimes the person that has the leverage doesn't know they have it because that power is so right that everyone focuses on that, which has been my experience in corporate America. You are so right though, my friend. I, I'll never forget. I Was pitching myself for a job that didn't exist back when I was in corporate. And it. I was sitting with the president of the company, and he said, you know what, Heather? Not interested. Get back and keep doing your job. You're doing a great job. Like, hit me with the power card, like, real fast, right? Like, you're good kids. Stay where you are. Doing a great job. On your way. We're busy. And I remember thinking I was frustrated. I was like, I don't like that he has all the power. I know I'm right, right? So I'm like, you know what? I'm going to dial for dollars. I'm going to. I'm going to. If this guy doesn't value me, I'm going to value me, and I'm going to start seeing if somebody else does. So I start calling other companies. I land verbally a huge job, much bigger than the job that I'm in, bigger than the job I'm pitching. But out of grace, I called him back and I said, I have a very important decision to make today. I'd like to meet with you face to face, because I believe it's so important to go face to face when you really want something done, a deal done. So I go and sit with them face to face. And I said, listen, have you thought any more about the opportunity I ran by you the last time we were together? He said, no, not at all. I said, great, then I'm here to resign today. And he said, what? And I said, yes, I'm giving you my resignation. I'm gonna go. I landed a much bigger job somewhere where people are valuing my talents and skill set that I'm bringing forward. And he said, can you give me two minutes? And I said, sure. And he left. And he came back in. And I said, where did you just go? And he said, well, I went to call my father, the CEO, because I couldn't make this decision on my own, which, by the way, never take a no from someone who can't give you a yes. People, that was a big mistake I made Me. Anyhow, he said, heather, I'd like to offer you the newly created position of VP of sales and blah, blah, blah. And the point being is I was so taken aback by the power move at first that I got frustrated. Instead of thinking, like, what you're saying, where was that leverage within me? Because nobody was doing that job that I was able to do so successfully within the company. There was no chance they were going to want to lose me. And I probably didn't even need to go through all of the. Making the phone calls and disrupting other businesses. I could have just had that conversation from a standpoint of, gosh, I really like working here. I don't want to have to leave. However, if you guys don't see my value, I'll need to start, you know, making those calls or whatever it may be. Too often, Kwame, people don't see the leverage that they have because they are so taken by the power, right?

[Kwame Christian]

Absolutely. I mean, when you think about the psychological studies, it makes a bit more sense, too, because when you look at people who are asked to talk to sketch artists about their experience being robbed at Gunpowder Point, what's interesting is that they can identify the gun with great detail, but they don't identify the face.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Why?

[Kwame Christian]

Because the face can't hurt them. The power is in the gun. That is the threat. And so when we are in these tough conversations, especially if we're struggling with confidence, our minds are focused on the threat, not the opportunities. So we literally can't see it. So we need to train ourselves to learn how to see it. And this is a really big part heart, you know, so that's. Once we can start to identify that challenge within ourselves, give ourselves more confidence, and teach ourselves to see more opportunities. Now we can navigate this conversation a lot more fluidly with that power and leverage, but the confidence to actually utilize it. And going back to your story, too, this shows a classic negotiation strategy of making sure that you have a strong batna, your best alternative to a negotiated agreement. And so just you think about good. Let's use really simple numbers out of 10. Let's say you have an offer from this company that is an 8 out of 10, but you want to do better. And so you go to this other company and you're trying to get a 9 out of 10 in this offer, and they say, no, sorry, we can only give you 7 out of 10. Then that gives you the confidence to walk away because you know you already have an 8 out of 10. And so sometimes the best thing you can do in order to increase your amount of leverage at the negotiation table is not negotiate with the person that you want the deal from, but actually negotiate with the people that you don't. That might be your plan B or plan C, because if you can make that option stronger, it gives you more power and leverage in the negotiation that you're really focused on.

[Heather Monahan]

I love that. How do you train people to see the opportunity when, like me, they're overshadowed by the power Element.

[Kwame Christian]

One of the things that's helpful is to take themselves out of the position. So it's, you know, just in life in general, it's far easier for people to give advice to other people than do do the thing that they know that they should do. And sometimes you need to take yourself out and position yourself differently with positioning, which is something that you talked about in our previous episode. Right. It's so important to position yourself well. And so if you can start to step outside and see this a bit more objectively, then you could see some of the alternatives. And so you have to kind of force yourself to be more creative. But here's something about the psychology of creativity that people often overlook. In order to be creative, you're going to be more creative when you are at peace emotionally, if you're constantly triggered, if you're afraid, if you're stressed or you're anxious, again, you're going to start focusing on the threats and not the opportunities. So a big part of being more creative and seeing those opportunities is the emotional side. It's often first an emotional challenge, then a cognitive challenge. But you can't get to the point of effective cognition and exploring those opportunities until you can first learn how to calm down and see yourself and just. Just be at more peace emotionally. So I think it has to be both. It's that emotional element and the cognitive element. But I just say, hey, let's, let's have a bad idea race. I love thinking about it as a bad idea race because if I've saved come up with good ideas now I feel stress and pressure. But if I just say, come up with as many bad ideas as possible now, people can be a lot more creative because a lot of times, again, cognitively, the ability to be creative and edit, those are antithetical to each other because you're thinking critically while trying to think creatively. So I just say, unconstrained from reality, best case scenario, what are some alternatives? And a lot of times what you'll find is that the opportunities outside of the one that's right in front of you are often far better. You just need to take the time to look for them.

[Heather Monahan]

Wow. Again, you just triggered another memory for me. So I was in a very toxic work environment in corporate America. Like so many people listening right to the show right now. So so many people are gonna. This is gonna resonate with you. P.E. so I was not sleeping well. I was traveling a ton. I was gone every week for work. I was super high stressed. I wasn't taking a Shower and getting all these solutions in my mind or going for a run and like, oh my gosh, now I know what I'm gonna do. And that's what happens to me now. But back then I was, I was like on the rat. Like I'm on the rat race. Like I'm running so hard and I'm constantly stressed out. Everything became hard. It's interesting cause I just was coaching somebody about this the other day. She couldn't see the, that she was on that loop. And that every time I would say, you need to figure out a way to meditate or to do yoga or go for a run or sleep or go to bed by 10 o' clock at night, like we've got to start somewhere or cut back on the caffeine. Something you don't understand. I can't. You don't understand.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

I can't.

[Heather Monahan]

It's not going to work. She was so locked into convincing herself that it wasn't possible. And I, I empathize with that because I, I was the exact same way. How can you get someone to pump the brakes and actually take a step, step towards doing something positive so they can start thinking in a more clear fashion?

[Kwame Christian]

I think it's, that's a bit of a negotiation too. One of the things that we can do is start with the minimum effective dose. What is the smallest step that a person can take in order to see that this is okay? And you might need to negotiate that with them because you might ask for something big. Oh, I want you to take a day off, take a vacation day. Or I want you to meditate for 15 minutes. No, no, I cannot. Right. This will happen. This will happen. It's the chicken little syndro. The sky is falling. And so sometimes you have to show them this. Nothing will happen. And I remember one time with one of the, one of the teammates that I had and I said, and she was very stressed out about performance. She had very, very high standards. And I said, you are performing at a level that is unnecessarily high and is taking a psychological toll on you. I would be better, it would be better for the team to have you performing while being well than performing at an unnecessarily high level and not being well. Well, because then you get stressed out and then you're going to have to take a mental health day at a time when neither of us are prepared for that. So we have to slow it down. And so I remember one time a client asked for something very late on a, on a Friday at like 4:30. And she said, kwame, Kwame, the client says they didn't need. They need this and they need it urgently. And I said, here's what's going to happen. I know that you cannot give them what they're asking for without me giving you what you need. Need. So I want to be very clear. I am not going to give you what you need and you're going to tell them that you cannot reach me and therefore they can't get what they need. And you're just going to be very nice and polite and then just say, I'll get it to you as quickly as possible on Monday. That's. And she said, this is giving me so much anxiety. I said, good, I want you to feel that and I want you to recognize that everything will be okay. They created an arbitrary deadline that they didn't communicate before. That's not our problem. We will be fine. And then she delivered it on Monday. The client was ecstatic and everything was fine. And that's when she realized, oh, wait a second, the things that I was afraid of, they didn't manifest. And so if you can find just that small step, just a little test, you're afraid everything's going to fall apart. Let's do that test. And if it doesn't, then let's take another step. Right? And I think sometimes just making it very, very small and being okay with being patient with the process and being incremental is what the person needs. Because a lot of times people will say no because it seems too risky. So if you can de risk the proposition by making it just a little bit smaller, I think that's the way to get them stepping in the right direction.

[Heather Monahan]

Meet a different guest each week.

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[Heather Monahan]

I asked you to try to find your passion. Okay, so you talk a lot about difficult conversations which everybody either is avoiding all the time or some people are leaning into overly aggressively. What are some of the frameworks or direction that you give people to how to address and have difficult conversations in a successful manner?

[Kwame Christian]

Yeah, well, besides the compassionate curiosity framework, there are some things, some frameworks that go along with it that help people to understand the power of it. Because the, the reality is there's a difference between being right and being persuasive. And this is something that a lot of people miss because they'll say I am, I'm right. I know I'm right. I've done the research and the person is just being unreasonable. They're being illogical. And I said that sounds like you're complaining because they're being a being human. Human. Everything you talked about, it's a very natural human response. That's just how humans are. And the thing is when there are going to be several times where you have all the facts, data, logic on your side and they still won't agree, that's a persuasion issue. And so one of the things that I want people to focus on is the difference between egocentric persuasion versus empathetic persuasion. So Egocentric persuasion focuses on the things that you believe. Why do you believe what you believe? I'm going to regurgitate that to you. Because, of course, you think exactly like you, like me. But empathetic persuasion takes the time to understand where the person comes from. It's how. How do they see the situation, how do they think about the situation, how do they feel about the situation? And when you can take the time to download that data and pay them the respect of listening and letting them tell you what matters to them, then what you do is you persuade them on their terms, not yours. So here's a very simple example. Let's say we're trying to sell a car. And there might be one person who likes the car because it's cool and fast. Another person might like that exact same car because it's safe and reliable. And if you go up to the person who has a family of four and talk about how cool and fast the car is, you might lose a sale. And so we have to figure out what it is that people care about and why and persuade on their terms. And a lot of times, the data and statistics and the reasons why we think they should change their behavior, behavior won't work with them. And the right answer might be to not even say any of those things because those are meant for you. Those are persuasive to you. The thing that might be persuasive to the other person might be something completely different. And you have to be humble and flexible enough to adjust. Wow.

[Heather Monahan]

Yeah. That is. That is so, so good. And the funny thing is, I keep being reminded by this, by you, that we've got to, like, take a step back. We have to get ourselves calm and centered first so we can be strategic about our. Because when you think about it that way, and I'm replaying in my own mind difficult conversations. I. I've been reacting, I've been emotional. I've been coming from my own triggers instead of, you know, being empathetic and some of these other strategies that you're giving us. So thank you.

[Kwame Christian]

Yeah, it's my pleasure. And I think one of the things that can help people just feel a little bit less pressure in these conversations is recognizing that you are going to be more persuasive based on the questions that you ask, more so than the statements that you make. Because the thing is, people don't. When it comes to these conversations, you need to understand where they're coming from, but the other person needs to feel heard in the process. Sometimes the deficiency that is that the person has in the conversation, the thing that will hold them back from giving you what they want, what you want, or adjusting is the fact that they simply don't feel heard. Think about how, how, how likely are you to trust somebody if you don't feel like they have heard you or understand you? How hard is it going to be for you to like somebody if you don't feel like they've heard you or understand you? I have been shocked, Heather, at how many of my conversations I came in, you know, with this lawyer mentality where I need to convince you of something. You don't get it, I'm right, you're wrong, all that stuff. And the only thing I needed to do in order for that conversation to get better and like to be handled effectively and the relationship to get better is simply, simply sit back and listen. And when the person feels heard that thing that they were complaining about, that thing that they wanted you to do, or the thing that they were unwilling to do, that barrier just magically disappears. Because a lot of times people are resistant simply because they don't feel safe. And sometimes the reason they don't feel safe is because they don't believe that you understand.

[Heather Monahan]

So what is the best way to do that other than to just listen? Is it to pare it back to them? This is what I heard you say. What is, what's the right way to communicate? We are hearing them.

[Kwame Christian]

Great question. Because a lot of times we can get criticized for not listening when we actually were listening. So it's not just about hearing the person, but making sure that they feel heard in the process. So I like to use the empathy loop. So it's a simple three step process. What you do is, number one, listen. That's step one. And then number two, you summarize. But you're not going to regurgitate what they said verbatim because that's annoying. You need to contextualize it to show that you understand. So you just say, hey, correct me if I'm wrong, or tell me if I'm right on this or let me know what I'm missing. But if sounds like you're saying this, this and this, and you care about this for this reason and it's having an impact on you because of this and you feel this way and it's having this impact. Am I getting that right? And this is the last part. You check with them. Am I getting that right? What did I miss? Is that a fair synopsis? Use whatever words you want. But it's listen, summarize and double check. Because what happens is this serves as a crucial checkpoint in the conversation where you say, listen, this is an inflection point. I can recognize that this is a very important part of the conversation. So I'm going to make sure that I understand you, and at the same time, I'm going to make sure that you feel heard. And I will not advance in the conversation until both, both boxes are checked. I'm going to take some time to make sure I got it, and I'm going to make sure that you know that I got it. And so there are a couple times when I realized that it's time to use the empathy loop. Number one, like I said, when it's an inflection point there where it's clearly an important point. I will also use this as a strategic timeout. If I don't know what to say next, I'm going to slow it down by using the empathy loop. And then there's a trigger, a signal, if the person's voice is getting louder, if their voice is elevating, then I often use that as a signal that they don't feel heard. So it's an interesting human trick, like weird human quirk. Think about when you're talking to somebody or people are speaking English to somebody who doesn't speak English as their first language. Oftentimes they speak louder. That doesn't help. But it's a weird psychological thing. Same thing in these tough conversations. If somebody's voice is elevating, it's usually because they don't feel hurt. So I'm going to use it at that point to make sure that they do. And so by managing emotions, using compassionate curiosity, recognizing when they're getting frustrated and not feeling heard, and using the empathy loop, I'm really able to keep these conversations really respectful because I can identify problems before they become big, big problems. Once I recognize emotions are out of whack, I'm going to use compassion and curiosity. When volume goes up, I'm going to use the empathy loop. And that keeps the conversation moving in the right direction.

[Heather Monahan]

I love that strategy, by the way. Thank you for sharing it. When do you say, you know what? This conversation's going nowhere. I'm just going to walk away from it. This is a toxic person, a toxic situation. What's the difference? Or is there a sign that you get that, you know, wait a minute, this is not going to move forward?

[Kwame Christian]

Yeah, this is an imprecise science. And let's separate the two because there's going to be a Time where you say this, it's the conversation is unproductive. And then there going to be times where you say this relationship, it needs to be, you know, completely removed. Right? Because at the end of the day, conflict is an opportunity to improve and strengthen relationships, but also identify and remove malignant relationships with minimal damage. So let's talk about productivity first. So every conversation has some level of momentum. We can see things moving in a productive direction. And if I recognize that we are feeling kind of stuck. Stuck. And I've tried different ways to get unstuck, right. How can I break through impasse? I might try this. I might try that. I might try this. We recognize the conversations have momentum. And if you've tried to keep on pushing through that impasse when you realize it's been 5, 10, 15 minutes and we haven't made any progress in the conversation, I fully understand you, you fully understand me, but we're just stuck. There's a danger of getting beyond that point of diminishing returns to the point where we just get frustrated and start hurting each other. Each other. And so what we need to do is we need to accept the progress that we've made, pack it up, and move on to the next conversation. And here's. This is one of the things I discovered in mediation. When I was mediating, I was a facilitative mediator, which means I'm not driving toward a deal. I'm just trying to help the conversation happen. If you get a deal, that's fine. If you don't, it doesn't. It doesn't bother me. Right? So I wasn't. I wasn't told to drive toward a deal. But there was one thing that I did that increased my closing rate by 20%, even though that wasn't my intention. Attention. And that was just being willing to schedule second, third, and fourth sessions. So instead of saying, okay, I'm going to try to push through this in this mediation, I'm going to push to 90 minutes, 2 hours, 2 and a half hours, 3 hours, and try to get it done today. Oh, it failed. We're done. What I would do is I would push to about an hour, hour 15. And then I saw the studies, I recognized that people can only focus really intentionally and intensely for about 90 minutes before they start to feel fade. And so before we got to that fade point, I would say, hey, listen, we've made a lot of progress. We were here before and now we've gotten to this point. I don't want us to lose this progress. Let's just schedule a second session and then we'll finish it then. And then in the second and third sessions, that's when they're getting deals because people are cognitively tired. So accept your progress, note the progress to the other side, and then they're going to be more willing to come back. So being incremental is helpful. So it's not that you're necessarily giving up on the conversation, you're just extending it it. Right. And so you're focusing more on momentum. And then, you know, maybe after the second conversation, third conversation, you realize, oh, we fully understand each other and we just simply disagree, agree to part ways and then, then move on. Because at the end of the day, negotiation is a problem solving tool. I'm engaging in this conversation to solve my problem, but at the same time, I'm not making this the only way I can solve my problem. I'm having this conversation so you could have the opportunity to solve this problem with me. And if we can't reach an agreement here, then I will then solve this problem couple of on my own. And that's the, that's the, the permission I give myself. Now, on the other side, what I would want to do is I would want to pay attention to the patterns within the relationship. So if the person is constantly draining you, causing problems, and this is something we talked about in, in our last episode, I'm going to recognize this pattern and then I'm going to give them an opportunity to get back on track. And I'm going to say, this is the kind of life I want to have. This is the type of relationship I want to happen. If you can't get to that point, you can do what you want, but I want to make sure that I give my, my myself permission to be well. And if they're not willing to do what it takes to, to adjust in order to, to help that situation, then you need to be willing to step away. So those are the two different ways that I would approach those situations.

[Heather Monahan]

I love that you are dropping pure gold, my friend. Kwame, tell everybody about your podcast, about where they can find you and how they can work with you.

[Kwame Christian]

Well, thank you very much. So negotiate anything. We've been doing this for almost 10 years now, episodes deep. And the only reason we are so good is because we have guests like Heather on the podcast. So thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it. And so you can find us there on any podcast player. I've got two books, how to have Difficult Conversations About Race and Finding Confidence in Conflict and Then, of course, if you are looking for a speaker or you need a trainer for negotiation or difficult conversations of any kind, the American Negotiation Institute can help. So if you check out our website, we're kwamechristian.com now. Now you can connect with us there.

[Heather Monahan]

Kwame, thank you so much for the work you're doing, and thank you for being here today.

[Kwame Christian]

Appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

[Heather Monahan]

All right, guys, until next week, keep creating your confidence. You know I will be. I decided to change that dynamic. I couldn't be more excited for what you're gonna hear. Start learning and growing? Inevitably something will happen? No one seeks Seems alone?

[Kwame Christian]

You don't stop and look around once in a while? You could miss it?

[Heather Monahan]

Come on this journey with me?