Podcast Summary: Creating Confidence with Heather Monahan

Episode: Confidence Classic: The “Yes, And” Mindset To Unlock Better Decision Making, Leadership and Relationships
Guests: Wendy Smith & Marianne Lewis
Date: December 23, 2025

Overview

In this “Confidence Classic” episode, Heather Monahan explores how embracing a “both/and” (or “yes, and”) mindset unlocks better decision-making, leadership, and relationships. Joined by Wendy Smith and Marianne Lewis — professors, leadership educators, and co-authors of Both/And Thinking — the conversation delves into why moving beyond “either/or” thinking is crucial for personal development, effective leadership, and navigating societal polarization.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Concept of Paradox and “Both/And” Thinking

• [02:32] Wendy Smith explains the foundations of “both/and” thinking, describing how life's most significant challenges often result from interdependent but opposing demands:
  • “...what often happens...is that people look at these as an either-or competing demand, seeing the opposition between them. But...these opposing forces are also interdependent...by seeing them as interdependent opposites...it invites us to think about dealing with them in a totally different way, in a both and way.” — Wendy Smith [02:32]
• Paradoxes are not just contradictions but dualities that define and reinforce each other.
• Recognizing this interdependence shifts us from conflict to creativity in problem-solving.

2. Everyday Examples of Paradoxical Tensions

• Work and Life Balance:
  • Being a parent and a professional is often treated as mutually exclusive, but embracing both enhances performance in each area.
  • “...the more that I engage with my work, the more passionate I am about it, the more successful I am about it, the more effectively I can show up for my family...” — Wendy Smith [04:12]
• Performance Today vs. Growth Tomorrow:
  • Companies (and individuals) fall into the trap of exclusively focusing on immediate performance or long-term development; both are needed for resilience.

3. “Both/And” in Building Confidence

• [06:39] Marianne Lewis unpacks the paradox of fear and confidence, describing how vulnerability is integral to confidence:
  • “You don't get confidence by sitting in a room, keeping the bar low...You're never going to build the belief in yourself until you put yourself out there.” — Marianne Lewis [06:39]
  • The path to confidence includes embracing failure and discomfort as opportunities for growth.
  • Key Practice: Shift from asking “either/or” questions (“should I be brave or vulnerable?”) to “how do I bring both together?”

4. Moving from “Either/Or” to “Yes, And” Mindset

• [13:04] Heather Monahan shares personal examples — from stand-up comedy classes to TEDx talk coaching — that illustrate the impact of “yes, and” thinking.
  • Her coach advised reframing her talk about the Me Too movement to include both the positives and possibilities for improvement:
  • “The Me Too movement was great and there's more we can look at. And when she said that...the light switch went on and I got it.” — Heather Monahan [13:04]
• [15:01] Wendy Smith emphasizes the first step is always to notice when you're in an “either/or” frame and consciously reframe the question to “both/and”.

5. “Both/And” Beyond the Self: Societal and Political Polarization

• [16:43] The discussion turns to how “both/and” thinking applies to contentious societal issues (e.g., Roe v. Wade reversal), using the example of a pastor who included all perspectives in a church sermon:
  • “...it allowed everyone to feel heard...it was about embracing the both. And obviously, the pastor is pro-life...However, that does not mean that that is the only way.” — Heather Monahan [16:43]
• [17:48] Wendy Smith articulates the risks of entrenched “either/or” positions:
  • “...we lead to what we call the pattern of overcorrecting or a wrecking ball, where we sort of shoot...from one end of the spectrum all the way to the other, crashing down anything good that the middle has created...” — Wendy Smith [17:48]
• These patterns fuel polarization, confirmation bias, trench warfare, and ultimately poor policy.

6. Interrupting the “Rabbit Hole” of Division

• [23:17] Marianne Lewis proposes compassion and listening as the first steps to breaking the vicious cycle:
  • “It has to start with some love and compassion. At the very least, respect.” — Marianne Lewis [23:17]
• Recognize and humanize opposing views, complicate your understanding, and fight the instinct to isolate, oversimplify, and dehumanize.

7. Managing Emotions & Discomfort in Tense Conversations

• [26:02] Both guests recognize the difficulty of navigating paradox when emotions are high:
  • “...part of navigating paradox and living in the both and is finding comfort in the discomfort, knowing that it's uncomfortable...but owning the discomfort, recognizing it, and then being able to move forward...” — Wendy Smith [26:02]
• True leadership requires stepping into discomfort—being willing to have difficult, courageous conversations.

8. Acceptance Fuels Change and Growth

• [29:33] Wendy Smith discusses the paradoxical relationship between self-acceptance and growth:
  • “...the more that we accept and honor exactly who we are at this moment...the more that we can grow and change, the more authentically we can shift...” — Wendy Smith [29:33]
• Radical acceptance (citing Tara Brach) is essential for real transformation—change is enabled by stability and acceptance.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You don't get confidence by sitting in a room, keeping the bar low...You're never going to build the belief in yourself until you put yourself out there.”
  — Marianne Lewis [06:39]

• “The more that I engage with my work...the more effectively I can show up for my family...”
  — Wendy Smith [04:12]

• "The Me Too movement was great and there's more we can look at. And when she said that...the light switch went on and I got it.”
  — Heather Monahan [13:04]

• “...we lead to what we call the pattern of overcorrecting or a wrecking ball...crashing down anything good that the middle has created...”
  — Wendy Smith [17:48]

• “It has to start with some love and compassion. At the very least, respect.”
  — Marianne Lewis [23:17]

• “The more that we accept and honor exactly who we are at this moment...the more that we can grow and change.”
  — Wendy Smith [29:33]

Important Timestamps

• [02:32] — Definition of Paradox and Interdependence
• [04:12] — Work-Life Tension Example
• [06:39] — Paradox of Confidence and Vulnerability
• [13:04] — Heather’s Personal Application of the “Yes, And” Mindset
• [16:43] — Societal Example: Roe v. Wade and Polarization
• [17:48] — The “Rabbit Hole” and Trench Warfare Metaphor
• [23:17] — Compassion as Intervention for Division
• [26:02] — Emotional Challenges of Navigating Paradox
• [29:33] — Paradox of Acceptance and Growth

Final Thoughts

This episode underscores how “both/and” thinking is a transformative mindset for individuals, leaders, and society. Rather than choosing sides or denying part of our experience, embracing paradox enables growth, inclusivity, creativity, and genuine confidence. The tools: notice your either/or moments, reframe your questions, empathize with opposing perspectives, and embrace discomfort as part of progress.

Further Resources

• Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Toughest Problems (Smith & Lewis; available on Amazon, in bookstores, and as audio/ebook) [31:46]
• Connect with Wendy Smith at the University of Delaware, and Marianne Lewis at the University of Cincinnati [31:46]

Keep creating your confidence — and remember, true growth and leadership are found in the space between opposites.