Gretchen Rubin (8:53)

Nothing.

Heather Monahan (8:54)

Nothing. But I didn't care. Number one, I wanted to create rapport and help GDA speakers out, right? They were in a pinch and they needed help. I wanted to show what I could do. And I also wanted to challenge myself. Okay, I have nothing in my mind, you know, any idea of what I'm going to say or how I'm going to do this. All right, this isn't going to be easy. Game on. Let's go, sister. And I said yes. And so I spent that week trying to figure out, how can I relate to this audience? How can I connect with them? And I ended up figuring out. I always lead with story, right? That's the way to captivate an audience. And personal story is really, really powerful. So I led with my ex husband had been in the financial business. And while I didn't know the business, you know, day by day that they were in, I knew the behind the scenes and what it was like for each one of them when they went home. And I knew the amount of stress. I knew, you know, how much pressure was on these people. And while I'm definitely not an accountant and I'm not the person anyone wants to go to for financial advice, I know what it's like when you're in that job. And so I opened with a story around that and how I had empathy for them and understood what it was like and understood the pressure they had forecasting on 2020 and what they were responsible to bring. And I killed it. I had such a great event and I stayed after the event to make sure everyone was happy. And I communicated it back to gda and after that, GDA started booking me with frequency. And I just knew if I can gain their trust, if I can show them that not only am I likable, but I deliver, I come through in a pinch, they're going to start booking me. And they did. The next week, I had another speaking engagement at fiu, which went really, really well. And never in my mind was I thinking, okay, this is a wrap. In one week, I won't be leaving my house. But it was a week later I was on quarantine, as we all were, and that was it. It just everything disappeared. So that obviously stunk and it was super scary because that was my primary revenue source. And I had to jump on my peloton bike and ask myself this question, what problem can I solve for people? Virtually what are the things people have asked me for but I couldn't deliver on because I was always too busy with my speaking business. And that's how I figured out. People ask me a lot for coaching and for consulting. And so I just put up a post and I launched my first ever executive coaching program. And that went well and definitely gave me a sense of purpose and revenue during this really uncertain time. And then myself and my agent pitched me for my book proposal and we closed a deal with HarperCollins leadership in the middle of the pandemic, which was amazing. And I was so proud of that. And I had forgotten about how meaningful that was to me. And I did not know that was going to happen. I had pitched my agent 15 times my book proposal. 14 times she said no. On the 15th time, she said yes. And then we took this proposal and went to 10 different publishing houses. And first we got back four no's. And I was panicking until I refocused and remembered it's not about the no's, it's about getting one yes. And we ended up getting a lot of yeses. And we picked HarperCon's leadership. And I'm so, so proud of that. Okay, so then from there, my coaching business and now my virtual speaking business started. And I remember the first time I was asked to be a virtual speaker. I said, I've never done this before. I don't know if I'm going to be any good. So I'm offering you 100% money back. Guar. I want to stand by my work. And here's the bottom line. I likened it to spin. Some teachers are great in person, but if you put them on peloton, they're just not as good. Their virtual connection isn't there. Some connect just as much as if they're in person. So I wanted to have that out. And it ended up going amazing. And they wrote me a review and recommendation of my work and I started promoting my virtual speaking business. And that has definitely picked up, but it still is so weird standing in front of a completely dark screen talking to yourself in your kitchen. I will never find that normal. Okay, then this summer, while all of this is going on, I get pinged that I was just named top 40 female keynote speakers for the year 2020 by this outlet, Real Leaders. I about fell over. And on that list were a bunch of other women I'd had on my podcast, really prestigious people. I was so proud. Had no idea coming, didn't even know to pitch myself for that. I don't even know how they found me other than they. I guess they ended up seeing me at some virtual conference in 2020, and that's how they found me. Then another thing I had no idea was gonna happen, I one of APB speakers had booked me for the meeting Event Planner Expo in New York City in October. And I had been booked for that for a year. And Daymond John was the headliner. And I was so excited to be working side by side with him and get to meet him in person. Hit, you know, pump the brakes, Covid. Here we are. Well, the head of the event calls me as we're moving into the fall and says, heather, we'd like you to be the headliner with Daymond John. And then they proceeded to Market me and Daymond John all over the universe, all over the Internet. I mean, crazy. And it's so interesting. The more we can get in proximity to people that are ahead of us, the more it elevates our brand, our worth, and our ability to charge more and allow people to see see us bringing more value. Right. Running at a higher level. That was huge. I mean, I still am blown away, but I'm looking at the pictures right now of all these images I got from the Internet. Then somebody nominated me on LinkedIn for top 50 most impactful people on LinkedIn and I won that. Someone else nominated me for top 100 sales stars on LinkedIn and I won one of those spots. There was so much unbelievable stuff that I completely forgot about my guests. I had set them Godin on this year. Oh my gosh, I'm such a fan of his. I had the CEO of Hint Water Kara on this year. I had so many amazing guests on this year that in those dark moments or down moments, you kind of forget about all these wins that you never knew were going to happen that you thought were out of your reach. So I had so many great people sending me congratulations and customized things to support me and encourage me. And I'm looking at the pictures of all of them right now. I will put these up on my social media too. But these were really meaningful moments. And now I'm looking at, you know, as we get closer to the end of the year, and I'm doing a lot of virtual speaking. And I can see in the photos, I'm so confident now. And it's just a short time ago, only back in March and April did I feel fearful that I didn't know I warranted giving a virtual speech. And here I am at the end of the year, I'm giving a speech, and there's images that people are posting online of me. And I'm crushing it. And I know I'm crushing it. So just because you start out lacking confidence, just because you start out scared doesn't mean it will stay that way. That's just the beginning. That's just the first step. And also this year, my TEDx talk got promoted to TED translated into six languages, and I had no idea that was coming. And then I was appointed to the board of directors for HealthLink, my first paid board seat. It's just. It's so surreal. So there's a lot to look back on and feel really proud of and not get caught up in just the, you know, we're home kind of this year is a wash because there was a lot that you accomplished, too, and I am challenging you. I really want you to do this. Go back, reflect on the year and see what pieces you might have been missing. But now, as we move into New Year's, I am bringing on the most unbelievable ideal guest for you. Gretchen Rubin is the author of several books, including the blockbuster New York Times number one bestseller, the Four Tendencies, the Happiness Project, Happier at Home. She has so many books. She has a new book out right now, Outer Order, Inner Calm. She has an enormous readership, both in print online, her books have sold 3.5 million copies worldwide in more than 30 languages. Oh, my gosh, I'm so jealous. On her popular weekly podcast, Happier with Gretchen Rubin, she discusses good habits and happiness with her sister Elizabeth Craftsman. They've been called the click and clack of podcasters. It's so cute. Her podcast was named in itunes list of best podcasts of 2015 and was named in the Academy of Podcasters best podcast of 2016. Buzzfeed listed happier in 10 life changing things to try in June. And the New Yorker said their voices remind you that life is a human project that we're all experimenting with. The podcast consistently ranks in the iTunes top charts. Fast Company named Gretchen Rubin to its list of most creative people in business. And she's a member of Oprah's Super Soul 100. Yes, she really is friends with Oprah, has been featured and interviewed by Oprah. I mean, this woman has it going on and she's keeping it real. And I am so excited for you to meet her right now. So hang tight. We're gonna be right back. Meet a different guest each week.

Heather Monahan (18:20)

Hi, and welcome back. I'm sorry. So excited to have Gretchen Rubin here with us today. Gretchen, thank you for being here.

Gretchen Rubin (18:29)

Oh, Heather, thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be talking to you.

Heather Monahan (18:32)

Oh, my gosh. You are the happiness expert. And, Gretchen, the more that I've read about you and researched you, I'm so interested to find out and hear your backstory. I mean, not only were you incredibly successful in college and in your young adult career in law, but how does someone transition from what looks like this very clear path that you were on in life to become this happiness guru?

Gretchen Rubin (19:01)

Well, I guess I made sort of two shifts. One shift was to go from law to writing, and then another shift was having started as a writer then to kind of shift into happiness. I would say my subject for all my books is human nature. That's what I'm always Writing about whether it's a biography of Winston Churchill, which was my second book, or a book about habits, which was my more recent book. But when it came time to switch from law to writing, I mean, I had an idea for a book that I wanted to write, which actually turned out to be my first book. And I literally went to like a Borders bookstore and got a book called something like how to Write and Sell youl Nonfiction Book Proposal. And I just followed the directions. Cause I didn't know what else to do. So I didn't really know what I was doing looking back on it.

Heather Monahan (19:43)

Oh my gosh. So that sounds so insane to me, sitting here with you, knowing you've sold.

Heather Monahan (19:49)

Millions upon millions of books and are.

Heather Monahan (19:53)

Our number one New York Times bestseller.

Gretchen Rubin (19:55)

I know it is a strange road looking back on it. But you know, I think what was easier for me is that I think sometimes people know what they don't want. Like they've decided, okay, I'm on a track and I wanna switch, but they don't know what they wanna switch to. Yes, I was fortunate because I was just beyond compelled to research and take notes and kind of think through power, money, fame, sex, which was the subject of my first book. And so I was being drawn to it like the Millennium Falcon being drawn to the Death Star. I wanted to do that. So it wasn't even so much I was leaving what I was doing, but that I wanted to go towards something else. And I think that made it a lot easier because I knew where I wanted to go and I could succeed or fail. Like I remember thinking, well, at this point I'd rather fail as a writer than succeed as a lawyer. So I might as well take my shot. But I think that's kind of an. That path is clearer. It might be just as hard, but it's clearer than when you're sort of like, well, I don't want to be doing what I'm doing now I have to figure out, well, what is my next step? That's much more open ended.

Heather Monahan (20:56)

Did you ever think of a plan B? I like that you were so willing to try and fail. If I was in your shoes, I would have been so scared. But did you have this idea of, I'm going to try this and I'll do something different if this doesn't work?

Gretchen Rubin (21:08)

No, you know, I never really think very far ahead. I know everybody says you should have like a one year plan, a five year plan, all that. I never really. I always just think about what I want to do next and So I didn't really think about it. I mean, I knew, though, that I knew I was employable. You know, I knew that I could have a job if I wanted a job. So I don't think I felt like I was incredibly at risk, but I certainly didn't have a plan B of what I wanted to do with myself.

Heather Monahan (21:34)

When did it become clear to you that, wow, this writing thing is really. This is my jam. I'm gonna keep doing this?

Gretchen Rubin (21:41)

The most important moment for me by far was the moment that I got an agent, which was months, maybe even a year before I sold a book. But the fact is, once I got an agent, I felt like a professional. Somebody was spending their time, which meant their money on me, which meant they felt like I had a shot at being a published writer, which is what I wanted. And so having an agent was the thing that changed me from, like, a person who was just, like, writing in her free time and hoping for the best to someone who was actually a working writer. And that was an immense shift for me.

Heather Monahan (22:17)

I like that example because I've had that same experience. For me, it was going on the Elvis Duran show and him saying to me, well, obviously you're writing a book when you have someone else that's in this position of strength and experience believing in you. It's such a powerful moment.

Gretchen Rubin (22:34)

On the other hand, I do think that there is, like, sometimes I think there's a tendency to want to wait for somebody to kind of sprinkle their fairy dust over you or, like, identify you or discover you in the drugstore or something like that. You kind of have to make your own luck. That's one of the things I love now about all these tools for writers, blogging, social media. All this stuff is like, you can put your stuff out into the world and get an audience, even if no one else does believe in you. Or maybe they'll wait and then they get convinced. So I think that's nice. Cause you to be. You really had to have somebody else cooperate.

Heather Monahan (23:10)

You're so right. And you can test and see what people respond to and lean on the data and have some information before you make a bigger jump. And I know that you love data and you love information, and your quiz has become unbelievably popular. And as I mentioned to you right before we started talking, I took the Four Tendencies quiz earlier today because I wanted to be able to talk with you about it. And I feel like I was either tricking myself or cheating or it was almost hard on some of the questions for me to figure out which one to go to.

Gretchen Rubin (23:48)

Okay, well, that itself suggests to me a possible tendency. But why don't I. Just so people know what we're talking about. I'll just do, like a super quick run through of the four tendencies, and then I'll see if I can shine a spotlight on what your tendency is. You mentioned my quiz. Like, more than 3 million people have taken this quiz. Now, it's short, it's quick, it's free, it's@quiz.gretchenrubin.com and it will tell you your tendency, whether you're an upholder and a questioner, an obliger or a rebel, and give you a little report. But I will explain it right now. And often people know what they are right off the bat. And I could tell you the Game of Thrones characters. I could tell you movie characters. These are very obvious to see. You'll know. Family members, colleagues. They're very blatant in the world once you kind of know what to look for. So here are the four tendencies. What the tendencies look at is something that's very specific and sounds dry, I'm not gonna lie. But it ends up being very, very juicy to know. And that is how you respond to expectations. So we all face two kinds of expectations. Outer expectations, like a work deadline, and inner expectations, like I wanna keep a New Year's resolution. So depending on how you respond to outer and inner expectations in combination, that's what makes you an upholder, a questioner, an obliger or a rebel. So upholders readily meet outer and inner expectations. They meet the work deadline. They keep the New Year's resolution without much fuss. They wanna know what other people expect from them. But their expectations for themselves are just as important. So this is like Hermione Granger is probably the most famous upholder right now. So their motto is discipline is my freedom. Then there are questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense. So they resist anything arbitrary, inefficient, unjustified. They always want reasons. And so if something meets their inner standard, they will do it, no problem. If it fails their inner standard, they will push back. And so their motto is, I'll comply if you convince me. Why? With New Year's resolutions, they often don't like New Year's resolutions because they think January 1st is an arbitrary date. So they're like, I'll do it when it makes sense. I'm not going to wait for some arbitrary day on the calendar. Then There are obligers. Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. And I got my insight into this tendency when a friend said to me, I don't get it. When I was in high school, I was on the track team and I never missed track practice, so why can't I go running now? Well, when she had a team and a coach waiting for her, she had no trouble showing up. But when she's trying to go on her own, she struggles. What obligers need to meet an inner expectation is outer accountability. If you want to read more, join a book group. If you want to exercise more, work out with a trainer or work out with a friend who's going to be annoyed if you don't show up. There's a million ways to create accountability. That is what obligers need because they readily meet outer. They struggle to meet inner. So their motto is, you can count on me, and I'm counting on you to count on me. And then finally, rebels. Rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike. They want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. They can do anything. They want to do anything they choose to do. But if you ask or tell them to do something, they are very likely to resist. And in fact, they often don't like to tell themselves what to do. Like, they often don't keep to do lists. They won't make a spin class at 10am on Saturday because they think, well, I don't know what I'm going to want to do on Saturday. And just the idea that someone's expecting me to show up is going to annoy me. So their motto is, you can't make me, and neither can I. So those are the four. And obliger is the biggest tendency for both men and women. That's the one that the most people belong to. And rebel is a conspicuous tendency, but it is the smallest tendency.

Heather Monahan (27:26)

Tendency.

Gretchen Rubin (27:26)

So what were you thinking as you took the quiz?

Heather Monahan (27:29)

So, taking the quiz, I came back a questioner. But listening to you explain it, I believe I'm an obliger.

Gretchen Rubin (27:38)

Huh. Well, I will say that feeling like you can't categorize yourself or that everything fits you is a sign of questioner. That is often a thing that questioners say because questioners say, well, I would do this in this situation because it makes sense in this situation, but in this other situation I wouldn't. It's very unusual to be confused between questioner and obliger because those are kind of opposite tendencies. Questioners readily meet inner, but they resist outer. Whereas obligers meet outer but struggle to meet inner. So why do you think that you're an obliger?

Heather Monahan (28:13)

Well, just listening to you describe it, you know when you were explaining someone who loves the accountability of being on.

Gretchen Rubin (28:19)

No, they don't love the accountability. They just won't do something without accountability. Can you do. If you make up your mind to do something, can you just do it? Could you be like, you know what? I'm gonna start running every day.

Heather Monahan (28:30)

I'm gonna liken it to the peloton during quarantine versus me going to a spin class with people there. I did both, but I prefer doing the classroom.

Gretchen Rubin (28:41)

How do you feel about New Year's resolutions?

Heather Monahan (28:43)

I write them out every year. I mean, I always have a list of goals for the next year.

Gretchen Rubin (28:49)

And if I said to you, let's say we worked in an office, imagine yourself working in an office. And if I said, hey, listen, we got this directive like, we're all gonna wear button down shirts on Fridays, what would you think?

Heather Monahan (29:01)

I think it's annoying, but I mean, if we had to do it, I guess I would do it.

Gretchen Rubin (29:05)

Maybe you are an obliger.

Heather Monahan (29:07)

Maybe I am. How bizarre.

Gretchen Rubin (29:10)

Well, I mean, it's not bizarre because it is the biggest tendency. So kind of like if I had to take a guess just on the sheer numbers, I always guess obliger because there's a lot of obligers in the world, but questioner is the second largest. I'm married to a questioner, by the way. How do you feel about like traffic regulations, like a traffic light or like signs on the street telling you when you can park someplace much needed? Okay, maybe you are an obliger because questioners are often like, this is so arbitrary. Why should I drive 65 miles an hour when a bad driver? I don't know. And the thing is about, I mean, what people often say about the tendencies is like one the best or is one more creative or more successful? And you see, I can name you so many people of all the tendencies who are wildly successful and also big losers. Because the fact is it isn't the tendency, it's how a person works with their tendency. It's understanding yourself and how to set up situations so that you succeed and thrive. And so an obliger who figures out what they need is unstoppable. And same thing with a rebel or questioner or an upholder. And they can also be very crippled by their tendency. Again, like depending on how it fits with Other parts of their personality or if they're in the wrong place. Like if you're a questioner and you work in Silicon Valley, well, maybe that's great, maybe that's rewarded, maybe that's why you get a promotion. But if you're a questioner in North Korea, well, you're going to learn to keep that shut down because that is not going to work to your advantage. And so part of it is getting yourself to where you can do your own best work, you know, and thrive, rather than thinking, well, I wish I were different. It's like, oh, how do I work with my tendency to get myself wherever I want to go.

Heather Monahan (30:48)

I'm so glad you explained that because when I approached the quiz I was thinking of it that way. Oh, obviously one of these is the best and I hope I'm that best one versus, you know, some of them might not be the right ones. That's exactly how I was thinking when I was taking the quiz. So thank you for explaining that. And I do also, I love, as a former psychology student, I love that idea that we really need to understand ourselves first and foremost in order to take that next step, which is like what you were saying to know what we're going to respond to. And I also love that idea that I really hadn't thought of before, of understanding others in that same way to get what we want.

Gretchen Rubin (31:29)

Well, 100%. And that's one of the things where I think the four tendencies is the most valuable is because a lot of times when conflicts arise or like people just being befuddled by other people's seemingly senseless behavior, it's because there's a conflict in tendency. And so here's an example from my own life. I'm an upholder, which means I'm very focused on execution. I'm a self starter. I don't need supervision. I like to do lists and calendars. That's the kind of person I am. And I like to just get things done as I can. And I was working with somebody. She didn't work for me and I didn't work for her. But we collaborated with an obliger and it got back to me indirectly that she was very, very annoyed with me because I was emailing her over the weekend. If anybody had said something to me, I'd be like, yeah, I don't care when she answers me. She can organize her work life as she sees fit.

Heather Monahan (32:15)

Exactly.

Gretchen Rubin (32:16)

If I have an email in my mind, I just wanna send it and get it off my plate. But she felt Like I was kind of violating work life balance and that it was really very presumptuous of me. Now, what does this mean? Do we need to go to hr? Does there have to be an office policy? Do we have to have a big sit down and argue it out? Am I right? Is she right? No, I just found out. Oh, she feels this way. I learned how to use Delay delivery and Outlook. So, you know, every Monday morning she would get like 10 emails from me, 8am Because I would just have them send at one time. I could write my email, get it off my plate. But I accommodated to her way of working. And it wasn't like one of us was right and one of us was wrong. It was just that we have different ways of approaching work. And so we just needed to figure out a way to thrive. Here's another example. So one of the funny things about questioners, not all questioners show this, but a lot of questioners do, is they don't like to answer questions. For some reason, they just. They wanna ask everybody else questions, but ironically, they don't wanna answer questions themselves. And my husband is like this. And it used to just drive me bonkers because I'm like, why can't you just answer a question? You know, I asked you something like, what time are we leaving later? What are we having for dinner? Food. I mean, he does that. And I was like, does he just wanna jerk my chain? Like, why is he making me hopping mad instead of just answering me? But then once I realized this is like a questioner thing, it became much less personal for me. It wasn't. He's like this all the time. He's like this at work, he's like this at home. There are many things that are good about being married to a questioner that I really benefit from. I've learned a lot from him. This is sort of annoying, but now that I understand it, I always just say why. I'm like, what time are we leaving? Because I'm wondering if I have time to go to the gym. What time are we eating dinner? Because I'm wondering if I should go ahead and have a snack or if we're going to be eating soon. Like, as long as I explain why I need to know something, he'll answer me. But he won't just do it because I ask him. And again, it might be slightly annoying, but it's not a reflection on our relationship. He's not doing it to annoy me, it's just the way he is. And so I can set up our interactions in a way that I get what I want and I don't annoy him with what he feels like are just like a stream of senseless questions.

Heather Monahan (34:23)

Meet a different guest each week.

Unknown (34:30)

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Heather Monahan (35:41)

You.

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Gretchen Rubin (37:55)

I asked you.

Heather Monahan (37:56)

To try to find your passion and that's a big takeaway that I got from your work is don't focus on changing the other person. Focus on knowing who you are, understanding who they are, and then deploying the right tactics to get the result that you want.

Gretchen Rubin (38:13)

Oh, 100%. And often, like, it's better to change the situation or the surroundings than it is to try to think about the person. My favorite example, and I wrote about this in my book, the Happiness Project, was this couple that like, you know, it was sort of the stereotypical thing where she was neat and her husband was messy and he was leaving like his socks on the floor or whatever, just, just like a sitcom. And so it was escalating, it was getting worse. They went to couples therapy. And then they finally realized, you know, for the money that we're spending on couples therapy, we could just have somebody clean our house once a week. And so they did. It's like, okay, problem solved. Nobody has to change. It's like, okay, that's the solution. Now, not everybody can afford to throw money at a problem like that. But again, it's sort of like. Or somebody was telling me how his wife could never find her keys and it drove him crazy. And they had like, like the key hook. You're supposed to put your keys on the key hook. Why can't you do it? Why can't a normal, ordinary adult person put their keys away in the same place Every time they walk in the house in the morning, everybody was late. Cause they had to run around, find the keys. Oh, the keys. Why are they in the fridge? All this. And then it turns out there's this thing called, I think it's called tile or tiles. It's like a Little thing that you put on your keychain or on anything that you might lose. And then you can use Bluetooth to locate it. Just the way you use your Apple Watch to find your Apple phone. It just beeps until you find it. So it's like, okay, put your keys wherever you want and then we'll just find it. Because it's got this device attached to it now. So again, it's like there's a solution that doesn't require someone to have like fundamental change. Because often, I don't know if you've noticed, people don't cooperate the way we wish they would, no matter how well argued our pleas.

Heather Monahan (39:48)

That is so true. And especially now during these tense times that we live in, it just feels like people are on edge. They're not taking the extra moment to analyze or understand the other person. That's why this, having this knowledge right now is so beneficial to anyone. That will take a little bit of time to dive into it.

Gretchen Rubin (40:07)

Well, and it's interesting that you say that at this time because I think a lot of people's habits are disrupted. And so people who might have had a good habit that they kept for years, like now, it's been kind of wiped away. I write about this in my book Better Than before, which is all about habit change. Like how you can have a clean slate for better or for worse. Sometimes it gets rid of a bad habit. Like you move and then it's easier to quit smoking. But sometimes it wipes away a good habit. Like now that you're not going to the office, you're not going to the gym because you used to always go after work, and now that you're not going to work, you sort of don't have that prompt. The way the tendencies can come up with this is obligers will often, even if they don't consciously realize that they need accountability, they often sort of figure out that they need accountability. And so they might say to a partner or roommate or, or a family member, hey, let's go running every morning together, or will you check up on me and ask me if I've exercised? And someone like a questioner or an upholder might say, I don't want to be your babysitter. If you want to exercise, that's great. If you don't want to exercise, it's not for me to tell you what to do. But an obliger needs accountability, and so they're asking for accountability. So now I'm much more aware when people ask me for accountability, even if I Can't provide it. I'm like, okay, let's figure out how you can get the accountability so you can follow through with whatever you want. It's burdensome sometimes to provide accountability, but there are so many ways you can do it. There are so many imaginative, crazy ways that obligers have come up with accountability. But sometimes you see that people will be asking the people around them for certain kinds of support. But because of their tendency, they don't understand why that support is necessary. So they don't play a role, even though that role would be very welcome.

Heather Monahan (41:41)

You're so right to making note that things have. Habits have changed because our life has changed over the last year.

Heather Monahan (41:48)

Even for me, when I was taking.

Heather Monahan (41:50)

The quiz and reading about the tendencies, I was thinking, you know, just leaving your apartment and going out to an event is holding you accountable and how you look, which affects working out, which affects your diet, which affects your sleep. Like there's this whole dominant Showering, showering. It's great. It's crazy. But I wasn't thinking of it that way until I really started reading about these tendencies and just thinking that there were accountability measures that were place previously that are no longer there. And it really does change our habits so much.

Gretchen Rubin (42:28)

Well, I mean, and you're a writer. One thing that you see with writers is like, you might have a writer who is very productive and has no problem sitting down and working. When they're like working at a magazine or a newspaper or something like that, where they have an editor and deadlines and like a team and like, they have to like stay on track because that's accountability. But sometimes if it's an obliger and then they go off and they're like, oh, I'm on book leave or I'm going to quit my job and go write a novel. And then they don't have that accountability and they stall out and they think, oh, I have writer's block. But I always say to people, I don't think you have writer's block. I think you have an accountability problem. This comes up a lot with people writing their PhDs. When I was writing better than before, I heard from so many people struggling to write a PhD because a lot of people just have a hard time. It's a long, long process. You're sort of off on your own to more or less extent, depending on what your field is. And I think a lot of them really need accountability. And so it's like once you realize, like, oh, that's what my problem is. It isn't some kind of, like, intellectual bl. It's that I feel like no one's checking up on me. Then you can put systems into place. Like, I know people who met once a month for years, and they were all in different disciplines and they never read each other's work, but they had to say, like, this is how much I've written. This is how many chapters so that they felt like somebody was paying attention to whether they were getting anything done.

Heather Monahan (43:45)

Do you think the same goes for perfectionists? Is that just a result or a cover for a lack of accountability in delivering something? No.

Gretchen Rubin (43:54)

You know, perfectionism, I think, isn't about standards. It's about anxiety. It's not about executing something or finishing something. It's about anxiety about the product. And so sometimes people are like, well, I'm such a perfectionist, I need to learn to lower my standards. Well, that's not gonna help. What you need to work on is the anxiety around it. Like, for me, like, one of the things I always say is, like, enjoy the fun of failure. If I'm not failing, I'm not trying hard enough. I really try to push myself to embrace failure or, you know, or to really be very mindful of the fact that whatever I'm working on is not worth the time to get it to 100%. Like, I need to get it to 85% and then move on or whatever it is. So you wanna work on the. On the anxiety.

Heather Monahan (44:35)

Where do you push yourself to go now after you've accomplished so much? That must be hard for you to try to find things to fail at.

Gretchen Rubin (44:42)

Oh, no, my gosh. I fail at things all the time. No, no, that is not hard. I do not find that challenging. Oh, I have so many pro. I have. So I have, like, thousands of pages of things that have never been published. I have all kinds of, like, bits and bobs online of, like, projects that failed. I have things I'm still working on that I may never finish. Like, I got plenty to fail about. The thing is, though, from the outside, you don't see other people's failures as nearly as clearly as you see their successes. So I think that we often think that people, other people have a better hit rate than we do because we're not paying attention to all the things they do that everybody ignored and, like, got kicked under the sofa after a year or two.

Heather Monahan (45:23)

It's so true. You Google someone and nothing is showing up about the failures. All you're seeing is hit after hit.

Gretchen Rubin (45:29)

For sure. Yeah, well, like, for me, a Lot of people think the Happiness Project is my first book. It was my fourth book.

Heather Monahan (45:35)

Wow.

Gretchen Rubin (45:36)

And so I was a writer for 10 years before I was an overnight sensation. And some of those books did well on their own terms, and some didn't. Some didn't do well at all, as they say. They did not find their audience. That's what your editor tells you. Your book is a big flop. You know what I mean? But nobody pays attention to that as far as they know. Here I come right out of the gate with some number one. You know, it's like, no, that's how it seems to you, because you're not. Why would you be paying attention to me? But, boy, I could show you a long list of stuff. Yeah. Plus, I have three bad novels that I've never published. I mean, I got all kinds of stuff. I love that. Thank you for sharing that with us.

Heather Monahan (46:13)

One of the things that you talk about that I'm hoping you can explain a little bit more on, because I don't know if that I understand it exactly was it's hard to change thoughts, but it's easier to change outward actions. And I wonder if I'm confusing it or understanding. Is that, like, fake it till you make it?

Gretchen Rubin (46:30)

I was thinking of it slightly different. I agree with fake it till you make it mostly. But what I think about is, like, people, they can say things, like, things that I rarely. I almost never pay any attention to trying to change are things like, I want to be more optimistic. I'm like, I don't even. How would you do that? Like. Or whatever. Or, like, I want to be more friendly. I always focus on direct actions that are, like, very concrete and, like, are objectively true or not true in the world. Like, I want to. To walk 20 minutes outside every day, or I want to go out in the sunshine, or I want to join a book group, or I want to kiss my husband every morning and every night, or I want to say, give a warm hello and goodbye every time somebody comes and goes from the apartment. Instead of showing more love or being more loving, I think, how can I have more loving actions? And what's true is that feelings tend to follow actions. So by changing your actions, you tend to change your feelings. So. So if you act energetic, you feel more energetic. If you act more friendly, you feel more friendly. That's a psychological phenomenon. That's true. And it's also much more within our control. And one thing that I really take issue with is, like, emphasis on motivation. To me, motivation is a very confusing word. Because it kind of conflates the idea of wanting an outcome very badly and being willing to take action in pursuit of that goal. Because somebody could be like, I'm so motivated to lose weight this year. Well, I'm like, do you desperately want to lose weight or do you. You mean that you are actually willing to do something about that? So I would say don't expect to be motivated by motivation. Focus on action. What actions will you take? Okay, I'm going to stop eating fast food. I'm going to quit sugar. I'm going to cook my own dinner every night. Whatever you would say. And that you can tell, but, like, I'm going to be really motivated for my health this year. It's like, you wait, you're in bed at night, you're like, did I do anything? Did I keep that goal? I don't even know, like, what does that even mean? So that's why I think it's just much easier to focus on very, very concrete, measurable actions.

Heather Monahan (48:29)

Yeah, that reminds me of smart goals. Specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, timely, and getting very, very specific with the detail, just like you said. I mean, that's great advice. What other things do you suggest people to do that are working on their New Year's resolutions right now?

Gretchen Rubin (48:47)

Well, one is, I think there's sort of a tendency, and I think people who write about this and talk about it kind of of foster this impression as well, that there's a best way or there's a right way. So if you want to exercise, you should get up first thing and do it, like, before you start your workday. Get it done. And there's a million reasons why that's a good idea. Okay, that's a good idea if you're a morning person. But a big percentage of the population are night people, and that's largely a function of genetics and a function of age. And night people are just more energetic, creative, and productive later in the day. And so the idea that there's a best way to do it, it. It's best for some people, but that doesn't necessarily mean it would be best for you. And so I think a lot of times people try things and they get discouraged because they haven't set it up in the way that's right for them. Another example, and you see this in the workplace, not so much now with COVID but when we were all working in the same place, especially in open office, there's abundance lovers and simplicity lovers. And so simplicity lovers, like clean desks, clean shelves, not a lot going on on the walls. Abundance lovers like profusion and choice and collections and buzz. And if you have a boss who walks around saying things like a cluttered desk means a Cl have a clean desk policy in this office, it's like, well, that might work for you because you're a simplicity lover, but what about an abundance lover? Or like I remember I went to some big tech company and they're like we decorated for Halloween and all their pods were like so decorated. And I was like, this is cute. But I couldn't work here because there's just too much in my face, too much visual noise for me, I wouldn't be able to handle it. But for them, clearly it seemed like fun and festive and was working for their productivity. So I think I would say, especially if you failed, if you have a resolution that you've tried in the past and you haven't succeeded, think about is there a different way that I could set this up? Like if I'm trying to go running on my own, maybe I should take a class or run with a friend. I need that accountability. Maybe I'm a rebel. Maybe people keep saying, hey Gretchen, you should sign up for class, you should sign up for class. And every time I sign up then I don't want to go. Maybe I should focus on my rebel powers and be like, I'm an athlete. I love using my body. I always have. I love to see, feel the air in my face and go out in nature. I feel like taking a bike ride or a run or a walk every day. That's what I love. And they might want to trap me behind a computer screen, but they can't chain me to this chair like I'm going to go out every day because that's what I want. That works for a rebel. But if all your well meaning best friend keeps trying to get you to sign up for her spin class, well that's not going to work for you because you don't want that feeling of being stuck maybe by the calendar. So if there's an important resolution and you're feeling discouraged, think about how you might tinker with it and approach it in a different way that might work better for you. And a great hint is always to look back in your past. Is there a time in your past when you did succeed with this resolution? When you were exercising regularly or reading a lot or spending more time with friends or getting more sleep? Because it may be the that something in your past will offer clues about how you can do it more successfully in the future. So in better than before, I talk about the 21 strategies that people can use to keep resolution and make habits. And what you see is that some strategies work really well for some people, but not for others. And so you're going to have much better success if you pick and choose the strategies that really resonate for you. Because we all sort of have our different combination that we prefer to use.

Heather Monahan (52:08)

Is meet a different guest each week.

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Heather Monahan (56:03)

I asked you to try to find your passion.

Heather Monahan (56:07)

So you mentioned, you know, an office situation and cluttered desk. It makes me think of outer order, inner calm.

Gretchen Rubin (56:15)

Yeah.

Heather Monahan (56:16)

Can you share with us a little bit about, about that new book?

Gretchen Rubin (56:18)

Well, you know, I've been studying happiness and human nature for years and one thing that always struck me, and I don't know if you feel this way is the degree to which I feel like outer order contributes to inner calm. And I felt like it was very disproportionate, like kind of the buzz I would get from creating order and getting rid of stuff and establishing order in my environment. But I found that over and over people would tell me that they felt the same way. Like a friend of mine said, I finally cleaned out my fridge and now I know I can switch careers, I was like, I know what you mean. And so many people. When I would say what resolution has done the most for your happiness? The thing that people most often said, although this is not the most Significant thing you could do for your happiness. The thing that people most often said was make my bed. That that's like the little thing that would start me off right in my day. And so I just became very curious to sort of explore the connection between outer order and inner calm. And so I decided to kind of write a little book about why there was that connection and then also like fill it full of all these kind of tips and hacks for how to create outer order. Because even for people who love it, it can be hard to maintain because it's sort of like everything in our life is we're constantly being washed over with stuff that we have to manage.

Heather Monahan (57:32)

Yeah. Especially as we're home more now, keeping things orderly has become much more challenging. But I will tell you, before reading your work, I was not going to add specifically make sure that the house is clean every night before I go to bed or anything like that. And I'm going to now just for that peace of mind that yeah, of course it's gonna make you feel more at ease, just less stress around you.

Gretchen Rubin (57:57)

Well, and I'll tell you that like 10 or 20 minute tidy up at the end of the day is very restful. And I think it's good preparation for sleep because you're sort of walking around. I think it's just kind of like putting things away. It's just kind of like preparing your body and your mind for like, we're just settling in. Like a lot of people now, especially because of all the anxiety, are having trouble sleeping. I think this is a good thing to do before bed, both because it makes it nicer to wake up, as you say, to kind of greet the day with energy and possibility. But it's also a good way to wind down because it's sort of quiet and it just has that quality of sort of putting things into place in a way that I think is very soothing. It's a good bedtime ritual.

Heather Monahan (58:39)

Absolutely. It's going into my new ritual. So thank you for that one.

Gretchen Rubin (58:42)

Good.

Heather Monahan (58:44)

You mentioned that when I was asking you about outer order, you said, well, making your bed is impactful, but it's not the most significant thing you can do for your happiness. What is the most significant thing people can do?

Gretchen Rubin (58:57)

Well, you know, ancient philosophers and contemporary scientists would agree on this. And that is it's relationships that. Relationships are the key to a happy life. And when you look at the people who are happy, they're the ones that have thriving relationships. We need intimate, enduring bonds. We need to be able to confide we need to be to.

Heather Monahan (59:15)

Able.

Gretchen Rubin (59:15)

Able to get support. And just as important for happiness, we need to be able to give support. We need to feel like we belong. And so anything that you can do that would either deepen your existing relationships or broaden your relationships to new people is something that will tend to make you happier. And I use this all the time when I'm thinking about whether I should or shouldn't do something. Like, again, like when we can all travel and stuff. Like, I'd be like, should I go to my college reunion? Yes, if I can, I should go. You know, it's like, is it worth the time and the energy? Like, it's going to be a hassle. It's like, but I'll see all these old friends. Like, this is a wonderful opportunity to deepen my relationships to people who I've known for a long time. Should I make an effort to organize that zoom call for my friends from high school? Yes, I should. Should I email somebody about, hey, do you want to, like, go out for coffee? Even though it feels kind of awkward because I don't really know them, but it seems like maybe there's a possible friendship there? Yes, I should. It's worth the energy and the time to do it, because if I make a new friend, that's a real happiness boost. So anything that goes to relationships. And I mean, and speaking of COVID I mean, I think people are more aware of this than ever because again, it's been very disruptive to our relationships. And I think it's really made people more aware than ever of how much our happiness depends on our feeling of connection with others.

Heather Monahan (60:30)

I couldn't agree more. And I'll tell you, I had the opportunity over the past year where we're seeing very, very seldom do we see people. And I, a good friend of mine, come and stay with us for 10 days. And it was so exciting in that strange way that when you have something that you love taken away from you, spending time with people and suddenly you get it back, you feel so enormously grateful for it.

Gretchen Rubin (60:56)

A friend of mine called at the Jane Austen. She said, we're going back to Jane Austen times where people would come for two months because she's single. And so she's like, I'm going to stay with my friend in Indiana for like two months. And then she kinda goes somewhere, you know? Cause she'll just stay such a long time. And I was like, yeah, it's like the old ways, but it's great. Yeah, you really do. You treasure it. Funny. I did a zoom thing and I felt like I needed to put on a mask. And then I'm like, wait, I don't have to put on a mask. You people are virtual. But I was so used to seeing people that way. Now I felt naked.

Heather Monahan (61:28)

That is for sure. One other thing I wanted to ask you about around getting to know yourself, and I had seen a speech that you had given where you brought this, this up was the difference between abstainers or moderators. I thought that was super impactful because I never even thought about that for myself.

Gretchen Rubin (61:45)

Yeah, maybe this is good for New Year's resolutions, because a lot of New Year's resolutions have to do about resisting temptation. So that is what this is looking at. It's how do you most successfully resist a strong temptation, Not a weak temptation, a strong temptation. And what I realized is that many people are abstainers like me. And that means that we're kind of all or nothing people. We can have none pretty easily, or we can have a lot, but we can't have a little bit. So, like, when it comes to sweets, I can have no Thin Mint cookies, or I can have a pack of a sleeve of Thin Mint cookies. I can't have one Thin Mint cookie. I can't have half a dish of ice cream. I can't have a bite of brownie. The minute I get it in my mouth, I'm like, I want more, more, more, more, more. But I can have none pretty easily. Doesn't really bother me to have have none. But then there are moderators, and moderators get kind of panicky and rebellious if they're told they can't have any. So they do better when they have a little bit or when they have something sometimes. And this explains the people who are like, I just keep a bar of fine chocolate in my desk, and every day or so I have one square of fine chocolate and that's all I need. Or they have a few French fries, or they have French fries sometimes. And the fact is, abstainers and moderators will often tell each other that they're doing it wrong. So as an abstainer, I want to say to moderators, why don't you just go cold turkey? Why do you keep breaking your rules for yourself? It's not worth fussing with. Just give it up. And then moderators say to me, it's not healthy to be so rigid. You shouldn't demonize certain food. You should learn to live a little bit. It's not healthy to just say no to all these things and I'm like, why not? I mean, it's just easier for me. And then people say, oh, well, you're an upstate because you have such strong willpower. I'm like, no, I don't have the willpower to have a little. It takes less willpower for me to have no. And I think a lot of people kind of have been told that they should be moderate, but then when they have a little bit, they can't stop. But then when you say to them, well, you could have none, it's like a huge relief to them because they're like, oh, I could have none. Once they try it, it works for them. So again, it's not that one person's right and one person's wrong. It's just that different people do better in different ways. And the fact that somebody does it differently from you doesn't mean they're wrong or that you need to convince them to do what works for you. Because. Because it could be very well different. Now, how about you? Are you a moderator or an abstainer?

Heather Monahan (64:05)

As I'm listening to you talk, I definitely am an abstainer, but my whole life I've tried. Like you were saying, I've tried to be. I thought that was the right way to be a moderator.

Gretchen Rubin (64:16)

Yeah, I mean, thing is, for true moderators, it's easy. And so they keep saying to people, just have a little bit like, what's your problem? And they don't understand that for abstainers, that's like terrible advice.

Heather Monahan (64:26)

I think you were telling a story of a woman who lost 70 pounds by switching to becoming an abstainer.

Gretchen Rubin (64:33)

I mean, I've known countless people. I hear from people all the time because I think people are like you. They sort of don't know that they're allowed to do that. And see, I think also nutritionists and people like that tend to be moderators because they have like this easy, moderate relationship with whatever their temptation is. They think that would work for everyone. They think it's their system that works, not realizing it's the system plus the personality. But the thing is, like, I can be a moderator about wine because I don't really care about wine. I can have half a glass of wine all day long. But I have a friend who's like, it's no wine, or four glasses of wine, can't have half a glass of wine. And it bugs her to just see it. And so you just have to say, well, what works for you? And if one thing isn't working, you might try the other. Way because you'll learn something about yourself. And sometimes people like my sister for her French fries are her kryptonite. And it matters, especially because she's a type 1 diabetic, so she doesn't want to be. I abstain from just. You wouldn't believe what I abstain from. I'm one of those crazy low carb people that you read about. Abstain from a lot. And I love it. It's like my hobby. She doesn't want to abstain from all that, but she just decided, I'm going to give up french fries because french fries are my kryptonite. I just, I'm going to give them up. And I remember saying to her, well, how do you feel about giving up French fries? And she said, well, now I realize I'm free from French fries.

Heather Monahan (65:50)

That's powerful.

Gretchen Rubin (65:52)

She's free from french fries. So now they have no hold on her anymore. Because before she was always like, I want, I want, I want, I want more, more, more, more French FR Fries. It's like sometimes it's easier to just say, yeah, enough with the French fries. Somebody said to me, but doesn't it make you sad not to eat a brownie? I'm like, not eating a brownie makes me happier than any brownie ever could for myself. But I'm just saying it's a possibility that a lot of people haven't considered. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but, like, you, maybe there's something, you just are like, you know what? I'm just not going to have that. Just take it off the table. Might be a lot easier for you than trying to manipulate the temptation.

Heather Monahan (66:26)

Absolutely. And it just goes back to that self awareness and just realizing and noticing, which is something that I had never thought of before. So thank you so much for teaching us this, Gretchen, giving us the opportunity to get to know ourselves better and get to know others better, too.

Gretchen Rubin (66:41)

It's been so fun talking to you. Thank you so much.

Heather Monahan (66:44)

Well, thank you for being here, Gretchen. Thank you for all your work. Please keep up your amazing work and I will continue to be your student and look forward to the next time that we can speak.

Gretchen Rubin (66:54)

Speak again. Oh, me too. Thank you.

Heather Monahan (66:56)

Hold tight. We'll be right back. I asked you to try to find your passion. I hope you enjoyed meeting Gretchen as much as I did. Again, back to proximity is power. I'm so grateful to be in that conversation with her. And when she called me an author, I about fell out of my chair. She sold 3.5 million copies of her books. Hello. This is goals. This is where I'm headed. This is where I'm going.

Heather Monahan (67:21)

Going.

Heather Monahan (67:22)

Get in proximity of people that are light years ahead of you so you can start to elevate yourself, challenge yourself to grow and really push yourself to that next level. So I received an upsetting message on LinkedIn. I want to share with you in my Q and A. Hey, Heather, I'm seeking counsel as a boss of Blah, blah, blah, blah. We won't get into that. I find myself making the tough decisions for other individuals and people hiding behind me and my name. With that said, I feel like a bad guy all the time and I'm starting to turn into a negative person, even though I wasn't. I'm not a negative person. I hate this. I'm not happy at work. I have X amount of time left on my contract. Throughout the day, I smile, but everyone who walks in, I find myself wrapped up in a negative conversation with them. And then it bleeds into my personal life. Have you dealt with this or do you have advice? Here's the thing. It's crystal clear to me this person needs to quit their job. Either you're in the wrong role, you're in a toxic environment, you don't like the job that you're doing and what your response is. But bottom line is you just outlined to me you are not happy. And we're here today and we're talking about happiness and how important it is in life. And we're living in tough times. We've got to find ways to focus on making our lives better, happier, and making ourselves more fulfilled. That man needs to quit his job. And I actually told him that in the message and he wrote back agreed. So he knew he needed to do it. Just because you know you need to do something doesn't make it easy. Easy. It can be very simple to know what to do, but it can be more difficult to actually pull the trigger and get yourself going. So hold yourself accountable. Get around people that are far ahead of you and that are going to stretch you to grow. Don't sit back and play small and try to hide from the problem. It will only make it worse. Believe me, I'm speaking with a lot of experience on this one. Having stayed in a bad situation situation for 14 years. You know, had I pulled that trigger sooner, I'd be light years ahead of where I am now. And I want you to be light years ahead of where you want to go. So take action. Sitting around anymore does not work. Give yourself a deadline. New Year's is the time to do it. We're in the window. Hold yourself accountable and challenge yourself and I am going to be launching a new challenge for you. I'm going to be putting posting all over social media and always you can find everything and anything on my website heather monahan.com if you need to be held accountable, you need to be challenged and you need to get into proximity of people that are pushing themselves go to my website heathermonahan.com you can sign up for one on one coaching and I am launching a new challenge for 2021. So get ready to grow because you know I'm growing with you. And until next week, if you could please rate the show, subscribe and review and share it on social. I will always repost what you post. Thanking you and major shout out for an amazing and interesting 2020. Let's flip the page and get our goals out there. Specific, measurable, attainable, realistic and timely for next year. 2021. We're coming for you. Until next week. Keep creating your confidence. You know I'll be right there with you. I decided to change that dynamic. I couldn't be more excited for what you're gonna hear.

Heather Monahan (70:37)

Start learning and growing.

Heather Monahan (70:39)

Inevitably something will happen.

Heather Monahan (70:41)

No one succeeds alone.

Gretchen Rubin (70:44)

You don't stop and look around once in a while.

Heather Monahan (70:46)

You could miss it.

Heather Monahan (70:47)

Come on this journey with me.