472- The Tug-Of-War Between Making Your Art And Sharing It With The World, With Gallant

Summary

Creative Pep Talk Episode 472: The Tug-Of-War Between Making Your Art And Sharing It With The World, Featuring Gallant

Introduction

In Episode 472 of Creative Pep Talk, host Andy J. Pizza engages in an insightful and heartfelt conversation with Grammy-nominated singer-songwriter Gallant. Released on September 25, 2024, this episode delves deep into the intricate balance artists face between creating their art and promoting it to the world. Gallant shares his personal experiences, creative processes, and the internal battles that come with maintaining artistic integrity while navigating the commercial aspects of the music industry.

Guest Introduction: Gallant

Andy introduces Gallant as a powerhouse in the music industry, highlighting his unique voice and impressive collaborations with artists like Sufjan Stevens, Dua Lipa, and Seal. Andy praises Gallant's upcoming album Zink, describing it as deeply connected to his creative vision and commendably risky yet catchy. The conversation is rooted in their mutual understanding of the creative struggle, making Gallant a perfect guest for this episode.

Creative Journey and Internal Struggles

Gallant opens up about the emotional turmoil he experiences before releasing an album. At [06:56], he shares, "I feel really proud of this body of work. So I haven't had the urge in the past 10 months... but I'm nervous. My heart's beating very, very fast." This vulnerability sets the tone for a candid discussion about the fear and anticipation that accompany creative milestones.

Andy parallels his own experiences with releasing a book, emphasizing the universal nature of these creative anxieties. Gallant elaborates on the duality of external success and internal fulfillment, describing his journey from creating music for self-expression to achieving industry recognition. At [15:53], he reflects, "I feel a little bit of this emptiness... I still have so much that I want to say and so much that I want to create, if not for anybody else, just for myself."

Balancing Creativity and Commercialization

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the tension between staying true to one's artistic vision and meeting commercial demands. Gallant recounts his early days in New York, grappling with industry pressures and personal authenticity. At [14:05], he shares a pivotal moment: "I felt trapped a little bit on tour... people that didn't value my uniqueness." This struggle highlights the challenge artists face in maintaining their unique voice amidst external expectations.

Andy adds to this by comparing the creative process to a mind game, asking, "How do you access different parts of yourself when you need to?" The conversation delves into strategies for managing this tug-of-war, such as compartmentalizing creative and promotional phases to preserve artistic integrity.

Creative Strategies and Insights

Gallant introduces innovative approaches to fostering creativity, such as using mood boards and synesthetic leaps to inspire his music. At [74:23], he explains, "I could build piece by piece, just like a visual world or like a stylistic world. And then I kind of know what it smells like." This method allows him to integrate diverse influences and maintain a cohesive creative vision.

Andy echoes the importance of these techniques, suggesting that creators "take the medium that you're not working in and then create a collection that has the right feeling and vibe." This cross-disciplinary approach encourages artists to explore beyond their usual boundaries, fostering a more holistic and inspired creative process.

Maintaining Flow Amidst Pressures

The conversation emphasizes the necessity of distinguishing between different creative states, such as flow and strategic planning. At [57:11], Gallant compares balancing creativity and business to navigating dual realms, stating, "You can't have them at the same time. That's where that fear and that attachment, that it throws you off comes in." This insight underscores the importance of mental compartmentalization to sustain both creative and commercial endeavors.

Andy adds that recognizing these distinct phases can alleviate the internal conflict, advocating for a mindset where creators can "own that phase and forget what music is now." This perspective helps artists manage their creative energy more effectively, ensuring sustained productivity and artistic fulfillment.

Notable Quotes

• Gallant at [06:56]: "I feel really proud of this body of work. So I haven't had the urge in the past 10 months... but I'm nervous. My heart's beating very, very fast."

• Gallant at [14:05]: "I felt trapped a little bit on tour... people that didn't value my uniqueness."

• Gallant at [74:23]: "I could build piece by piece, just like a visual world or like a stylistic world. And then I kind of know what it smells like."

• Gate at [57:11]: "You can't have them at the same time. That's where that fear and that attachment, that it throws you off comes in."

Call to Adventure: Practical Takeaways

Towards the end of the episode, Andy and Gallant discuss actionable strategies for artists to implement in their own creative practices:

1. Synesthetic Leaps and Mood Boards: Create mood boards that go beyond your primary medium to inspire new ideas and connections.

2. Compartmentalizing Phases: Separate creative creation from promotional activities to manage mental energy and maintain focus.

3. Embracing Unique Voices: Stay true to your inner taste and uniqueness as a core strength in your artistic endeavors.

4. Collaborative Exploration: Engage in side projects and collaborations that allow for creative freedom without commercial pressure.

Gallant encourages artists to "keep playing with Legos," metaphorically speaking, to retain that childlike wonder and joy in the creative process.

Conclusion

Episode 472 of Creative Pep Talk offers a profound exploration of the delicate balance between artistic creation and commercialization. Gallant's candid reflections and practical insights provide invaluable guidance for creatives navigating similar struggles. The episode not only sheds light on the emotional and psychological aspects of the creative journey but also equips listeners with strategies to foster a thriving creative practice.

Final Thoughts

Andy wraps up the episode by emphasizing the importance of integrating these insights into a consistent creative practice. He encourages listeners to take actionable steps towards maintaining their artistic integrity while effectively sharing their work with the world. The conversation leaves audiences inspired to embrace both the joys and challenges of their creative endeavors, fostering a more resilient and fulfilling creative journey.

Stay Connected

To further support your creative journey, Creative Pep Talk offers a monthly live virtual meetup for supporters, featuring diverse creatives from various fields. Join the community at patreon.com/creativepep talk or substack.com/andyjpizza to engage with like-minded individuals and access exclusive content.

Support the Show

Discover more episodes and additional resources by subscribing to Andy J. Pizza’s newsletter at andyjpizza.substack.com. Enhance your creative practice with their free ebooklet, The Creative Career Path, available upon sign-up.

About Creative Pep Talk

Creative Pep Talk is a weekly podcast dedicated to helping creatives build a thriving practice. Hosted by Andy J. Pizza, a New York Times bestselling author and illustrator, the show offers inspiration, strategies, and community support to empower artists to overcome creative challenges and achieve their goals.

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References:

• Creative Pep Talk Episode 472 Transcript
• Official websites and social media handles as mentioned during the podcast.

Transcript

[Andy J. Pizza]

On the creative journey, it's easy to get lost, but don't worry, you'll lift off. Sometimes you just need a creative pep talk. Hey, you're listening to Creative Pep Talk, a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. I'm your host, Andy J. Pizza. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and illustrator and this show is is everything I'm learning about building and maintaining a thriving creative practice. Galant, singer, songwriter is on the podcast today. Gallant is a musician performer with just an unreal voice and has done so many interesting things. If you don't know Gallant, I suggest maybe starting with some of the new tracks from the album. The new album Zink that is just coming out in 2024 and then maybe hopping over to the tiny desk concert that he did. Unreal. The pipes and the sound that they got live in that studio space was just unbelievable. And then maybe checking out some of his recordings with Sufyan and Dua, Lipa and Seal and some of the sessions they did on YouTube and that'll give you a little taste. If you don't know, this guy is just a powerhouse, extremely creative. He's Grammy nominated, just has had an explosive career up until now. And then he's bringing out this new album that as far as I can tell, is just one of the most deeply connected to his creative vision. I think he's taking interesting risks while also delivering catchy stuff. Ever since I heard it, it's been stuck in my head. Great album. He reached out to me in the process of making it a few years ago and he was talking about an episode of the podcast that he'd heard. And so I went and checked out his stuff and I was like, holy goodness, this is. This is legitimate sound. I was so pumped. I said, hey man, dude, I want to. I'd love to chat when you're on the verge of releasing this thing, please get back in touch. And he did. And so that's what this is. We had an epic conversation around Creative Journey and the ongoing battle, the mind game that is trying to access the right parts of yourself at the right times in the right places throughout the creative process, both in the creation and then the releasing it out into the world. It's such a difficult art and tightrope walk and so we dive into that. I was so inspired by all of his insight and all of his vulnerability and some of the stories he tells at the beginning. A couple things to listen out for in this one taste and what it feels like, what it looks like to Tap into that part of you that maybe goes beyond language, goes beyond rationale. He articulates that so well. Look out for what it looks like to get inspired by mediums that are not your own and how to think about setting up those kind of mood boards for your work as a potential prompt to get over the blank page. We're going to get into all that. Like, I love the zone that Galant gets into on multiple occasions and I just had a fricking blast. I feel like we tapped into some flow, which is a topic also that we kind of get into. We're going to end with a cta, a call to adventure, how to put some of these ideas to practice in your own practice right after this episode. But the CTA is going to come from him. I'll come back at the end just to say bye. Massive thanks to Gallant for making the time. Honestly, I really hope that I get to chat with him again because he's such an inspiring artist. I think you're going to love the chat. Here it is. My chat with Gallant. Miro is a collaborative virtual workspace that syncs in real time for you and your team so that you can innovate an idea into an outcome seamlessly. We talk a lot on this show about the idea of how creative research shows that playing with the problem is essential to innovation. Now, when I think of play, I don't think of documents and email, so if your team is often working remote, you need something more dynamic and collaborative. I think that Miro's mind maps and flow charts, where team members can edit and play in real time, has a lot more capacity for innovation in playing with the problem than traditional ways of collaborating over the Internet. Whether you work in innovation, product design, engineering, ux, agile or it, bring your teams to Miro's revolutionary Innovation Innovation Workspace and be faster. From idea to outcome. Go to miro.com to find out how. That's M I R O.com I'm a believer in the idea of dressing for the job you want, not the job you have. And I have applied this to my creative practice too, which means if you want professional results, you need to present online like a pro. And that means going beyond social media and having a professional website that reflects your style and looks legit. I rebuilt my site this year with Squarespace's Fluid Engine and was so happy with how easily I could build my vision without coding that when they approached me to support the show, I jumped at the chance because I love and use this product. So go check it out squarespace.com pep talk to test it out for yourself. And when you're ready to launch your site, use promo code pep talk. All one word, all caps for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks goes out to Squarespace for supporting the show and supporting creators all over the world. So the album's about to come out, right?

[Gallant]

Yes, yes. So right now it's, I guess, about three weeks. Three or four weeks.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Gallant]

Before the album comes out. Yeah. And I'm doing okay.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Gallant]

I'm. I always get. I feel like it's a weird one because for me, I feel like I've always done a thing where I'm, like, working literally, like, a week of. Or, like, even sometimes, like a couple of days before the album's supposed to release. I'm, like, still sending stems to the mixer and I'm like, oh, let me change this thing. And I, like, make it so quick for myself so that I don't have to live in the agony of the purgatory of trying to, like, anticipate what the reaction is going to be or, like, get. Fighting the urge to go back and make changes because you have the space and the time to think about it. So, luckily, I feel really. I feel really proud of this body of work. So I haven't had the urge in the past, you know, 10 months or however long I've been sitting with the whole. With the whole body of work. So I. I'm at peace, but I'm nervous. My heart's beating, though. Like, my heart is beating very, very fast and has been for the past two months.

[Andy J. Pizza]

So I get it. I get the same way when I. When I'm releasing a book, I get the same way, like. And I. And it is. You know, there's all kinds of. It's all. The whole thing's a mind game. It's all. How do you access different parts of yourself when you need to access them? How do you do it? Attachment and detachment at the right points of the process. It's very.

[Gallant]

Exactly.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's a difficult. It's a difficult game. But I have to say, I've been super enjoying the album, man.

[Gallant]

I. Oh, thank you, man. Thank you so much.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I am loving it. And I. I think my favorite right now is Lucid.

[Gallant]

Wow. Really? Thank you, man. Thank you so much.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That's an epic ending. Is that. That's going to be the last track, right?

[Gallant]

Yeah. Yeah. And that makes me so happy that you say that, because that's one of those songs where I almost psyched myself out Because I was like, you know what? I really like this, and I really like this ending, but nobody's probably. Nobody's gonna like this song. So, dude, let me just throw it on here. Let me, like, you know, give. Give myself one, you know, tight to the chest record with a really cool ending that I like. Thank you, man. That's. That's so nice of you to say.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Dude, I. I love it. And that line of, only feel alive when I'm lucid dreaming. Dude, I feel that in a real way. Like, that I was like, that's sad and real. I feel like. So. Dude, I love it. And it's. Yeah. And I think my new running song is going to be Cold Star. I love that.

[Gallant]

Oh, man. Thank you.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Drive. That's, like, exactly what you want. Like, the right steady kind of pace and some surprising elements that pop in as you go. Like, I'm excited to run to that one.

[Gallant]

Thank you so much. I actually have to try that. I feel like I've been underestimating that song as a running song.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, it's got a good pace. I feel like.

[Gallant]

Yeah, yeah, you're right. You're right. It's like a cool combination of, like, driving, but then also calming. I think. It's like you're running in, like, Seattle in the fall, and there's, like, a nice breeze and maybe like, a couple. Couple speckles of rain drizzle every now and then.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And you want. You know, if you. Especially if you're doing a little bit, you know, longer distance, you don't want something that's pushing you to the edge and hyping you out of your mind. You want to, like, get in the, like, locked into a flow. And I feel like that's kind of what that song feels like.

[Gallant]

That's so true. That's so true. You don't want to burn yourself out too quickly. I want to be where you are. You color in the mind Shades of black and white.

[Andy J. Pizza]

So I don't know. Like, I want to talk about the, like, creativity of the album and how that came together, and I want to go back a little bit before we do that, but. And. And, you know, this right here, this was a risky move, but I had to trust my gut and just say, you know, what it sounded like to me was like, if 90s usher made an album with Burial, is that.

[Gallant]

That's amazing.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Does that feel like anything? I also thought Seal, too, before I even knew that you had done anything with Seal. So I was like, I'm like, I'm on something with this house kind of UK thing going on.

[Gallant]

Yeah, dude, that's. That's such a huge compliment. Like, I mean, Seal is one of my heroes and. And Usher. I mean, Usher, I feel like, basically taught me through self teaching myself how to, like, you know, make sounds with my voice that weren't excruciatingly painful for other people to hear. You know, I just, like, listened to a bunch of Usher songs and, you know, slowly dialed it in and. Thank you, man. That's such a cool combination of those two worlds that I love so much. I'm glad that comes through. That's so sick.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's great, man. It's great. And also, I just feel like as I'm, you know, I had listened to some of your songs before and dove deeper in this album and then. But I didn't really realize your kind of creative journey. And in so many ways, I'm just like, dude, this is, like my life. Like, I grew up, like, genuine differences on repeat. And then he's in your video. And then touring with Sufjan, that's like my college years. I was like, dude, this guy's, like, living my dreams. If I could play music. And yeah, I was just like, I couldn't wait to chat.

[Gallant]

Me too, man. That's part of what Drew. Because I feel like, you know, I feel like I was. I was late to the podcast. I've only, you know, been. Been listening the past, like, three or four years, but I feel like you would always pepper in these, like, references of music that you would like, and it would be very, very subtle. And then I was like, oh, man, we're on the same page there. And then you would mention these, like, R and B artists. I'm like, oh, we're on the same page there.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. I try not to go too hard on it because you don't want to isolate based purely on your taste when that's not really what the show is about. But sometimes I can't help it.

[Gallant]

Exactly. I totally, totally understand that.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I wanted to go back a little bit before we got into the new stuff, because the first thing I, you know, I'm listening to, and it feels like new and different and, like, a lot of a mix of things that I hadn't heard. And I know a little bit about how you feel about it, so there's a lot of interesting, really interesting creative journey stuff there. But before that, as I'm, like, going back, I'm looking through your tiny desk thing was crazy. Your voice is nuts.

[Gallant]

Oh, thanks, man.

[Andy J. Pizza]

First of all amazing. And then Grammy nominated, I'm just pulling up all this stuff and I'm like, dude, at this stage, does do you feel like you can like chill because you're like, I did all the things like a musician wants to do or does it put you in a different place because you're just like done hero collabs and just crazy, crazy shit? Like, I'm just wondering where that puts you at this stage.

[Gallant]

Yeah. Oh man. It's so crazy that you asked me that because I feel like I wake up every day and I ask myself the same thing. I feel like, you know, I think. And also part of why, you know, the topics that you, that you constantly touch on on the podcast really resonate with me is because I, I definitely had, you know, bucket list goals and everything when I, when I started doing music, but I always only made songs from a place of getting things off my chest and really working out, you know, my own internal bits of conflict and just to make something that I felt like didn't really exist in the world. But I really wanted to hear this combination of this thing with this other thing.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Gallant]

And so I feel like in a way it's a double edged sword because on the one hand I do feel like I've been able to be really self motivated. And it's not about whether people like it or people decide that they don't want to listen to this thing this time around or at the time when I was like just really starting out when I was in middle school, making admittedly really horrible songs on my computer and sharing it with my friends. And my friends were like, this is garbage or whatever. Sometimes they would be nice, but it was always okay because I was really going from a place of self fulfillment and I just wanted to make. I just thought it was cool. I just wanted to listen to it myself, you know, even if nobody else heard it. And so it's weird. I feel like what makes it a double edged sword is the fact that there's still this, I don't want to say emptiness because that sounds extremely, you know, maybe a little bit too emo, but that's kind of what it is.

[Andy J. Pizza]

This is an arts podcast. You can go there, man. Like we all feel that way. Go for it.

[Gallant]

Yeah. You know, I just, I feel a little bit of this emptiness and I still feel like there's. There's so many different shades of sounds that I haven't explored yet that I really wanted to. And, and even, even the stuff that you're mentioning because some of those things happened in really rapid succession. And, like, you know, maybe like five years ago, six years ago. And even in the moment, it was like I was doing all these things and, like, checking this bucket list item off, but I'm like, wait. But, you know, that's. That's just a snapshot in time. That's just the one thing that I. That I did. And I really, like, I want to say this thing, and I want to do this other thing. But then I was. At the time, I felt like I was trapped a little bit on tour. And then it led to a mismatch, too, just emotionally, that was really hard to reconcile with because I'm a very introverted person. I'm a very quiet kind of person, and had never even been in the middle of the country. I grew up in Maryland and went to school up in New York. I went to nyu. And so when I went on tour, that was the first time that I was even really going into the middle of the country and playing venues, and even that was really exciting. But it was this mix of, like, this is a strategy for this thing, for your career. And then I have a team of people, and then it's like, oh, let me introduce you to this other group of people that I've never met before, and they're going to be overseeing this thing. And then I'm like, cool, that's great. But then they're like, oh, you should do this, and then I should do that. And then it was like I was so ensconced in the sauce of the. Of the. The gears, like, yeah, exactly. Just the machinations of everything that when I look back and I'm like, oh, this is. This one thing that I wasn't able to be fully present in is really cool. And I connected it with this thing, and it. There is, like, a little bit of feeling like I achieved some bits of my goals, but the majority of my goals were really, and remain to be, like, very internal. You know, it's like, I still want to. I really want to make this thing, or I really want to. I was happy that I found an audience for this song that was kind of hard to place and harder to find. But these other songs I really want to find an audience for, and that is really special to me at this point in time. Or maybe it's not even a song. Maybe it's, like, the way I present myself and stylistically, and I'm like, oh, it really meant a lot to me. I had this. This image of this person who looked like Me, but combined these elements together that I didn't really get to see a lot, and I want to represent that, and that's really important. So it's a very long winded way.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Oh, man. It's good. That's exactly what I was hoping we'd get into some of that because I imagined. What were you going to say? Sorry?

[Gallant]

Oh, no, I was just going to say it's a very long winded way of me saying that. I still feel like I have so much to do, you know, I have so much that I want to say and so much that I want to create, if not for anybody else, just for myself.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Gallant]

And maybe for like, you know, it's like I really remember the kid that I was and the kid that I still am who is like a music fan and a movie fan and a cartoon fan. And I really want to continue to speak to whatever analog of that kid in 2024 is, you know, and that really means a lot to me. And so I feel like it's. It's hard to even look at those things, you know, when it's like numbers and, like, people that I've been able to work with. Even though it's been so. It was so fulfilling and it was so special, it's hard for me to check it off a checklist that's a little bit more, like, spiritual, you know, it's like. And that's what I'm in constant pursuit of. And who knows if I'll ever actually, maybe some of those things are so spiritual that they're impossible to be checked off. So maybe I'm going to be an eternal suffering of trying to. Trying to check those innate, you know, more mystic goals off of my list. But. But the pursuit of it is. Is a lot of fun. I think.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Sometimes it can be, but it's more. I mean, honestly, I think the way I think about. Honestly, the reason why I asked was because there's a tension as I'm, like, looking at. I'm listening to this album and I'm looking backwards and I'm kind of seeing like, okay, there's space here. I'm feeling like, oh, this. This new album feels like, oh, this is an artist listening to themselves, trying to listen to their own, like, taste and what they want. And. And. And I'm watching the whirlwind that you've kind of gone through, and I'm just thinking, I. Dude, I can't imagine the amount of voices that were in your head and around you, and you were crushing it. Like, I'M this isn't coming from any place other any judgment. Like those like, like I said tiny dust thing. Dude, it was amazing the sessions you did with Sufian and like incredible. There's no, I'm not saying anything bad about him except I'm just saying that the reason I set that up was the intrinsic versus the extrinsic goals and feeling like, you know, for me a lot of my external goals I didn't hit until a decade plus into my career and I still haven't hit some of them but some of them I have and I think it took me that long to realize like oh, this fuel. There's some good things that happen from it. I'm happy they happened. I think that they can be important. I'm not discrediting them but they're not going to fill me up. And the thing that fills me up is this intrinsic motor. And that motor reminds me of Austin Kleon. He talks about like it's like Groundhog Day. It's just. I want to write another story. I just want to write another story that's a little bit better or a little bit different or like, you know, there's the, that's the. You know, like you said, it can be kind of a suffering but it is like a self perpetual get you out of bed kind of suffering that is also a fun way of wrestling, you know. So that's kind of why I was asking because I wondered like I. There's like I said, I feel like creativity is such a mind game and I tried to. I can't imagine but I try to put myself in those positions that you have been in and then to get from the journey of that to this record and it's like, okay. I just know I have to think there's some people from five, six, seven years ago that might have said don't do such a vibey record. Like don't like this thing is. Feels so creative and like it just feels like a vision. But I just feel like I know that there are a lot of people in positions of power that are going to be like don't do that. You know what I mean? I don't know if I'm on anything, but that's kind of how I'm thinking about it.

[Gallant]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, and that's such a. That's such a tough and like occasionally I guess like demoralizing tug of war because you know you, you always. And you talk about it a lot too when you're. Especially though, I mean I think you might have had another episode since then, but the timing of this is wild because I think I just listen to the episode where you're, you know, you're talking about the constant, like, the siren song of the algorithms, and then, yeah, the business world, and you're building your career, but then at the same time, you want to be somewhat tethered to your own inner creative voice and creative vision. And I was just like, oh, man. Like, and he's doing it again. But it's tough. I think when I first started writing music, I felt like. Well, really, when I first started making music in New York, I was really playing to the industry and the way everything was laid out, it was like. I mean, and this was a while ago, so the industry was very tightly controlled by labels, and labels really did have all the answers. It seemed like at that time, it was like whatever they wanted to do, they would make it happen. And so I was in New York, right. Like, still a teenager, just writing all of these songs, hoping that a label person would hear it and then decide that I was worth investing in, or even if I wasn't worth investing in, maybe the song would be good for this other artist. And it was. It wasn't that much time, I guess, in hindsight, but it was like a good, solid two or three years of just, like, what felt like to me, constant rejection, but not enough. Not in, like, a fun way. It was like, rejection to the point of, like, nobody will ever connect with these. These lyrics because it's not about partying or it's not about, like, it's not about this list of things that we know works. Like, we know this sells and this has to be it. Or the classic, like, but you're black. You can't write this other. You can't take inspiration from this other genre. How is that going to be marketed? That doesn't. It's like these constant things that. I guess it's fair from, like, just an overall, I guess, marketing perspective in a very clinical sense. Yeah. Even though I really hate that. But for my brain, it's like, I can't compute. Because to tell me that over and over again, it's like it's. It was, like biting at the very core of my essence. Not just creatively. Like, you're. You're. You're talking about me as the person who just looks the way I look. That's just how I was born. And I just like the music that I like, and I like the movies that I like, and I'm inspired by the you know, genre Japanese music, sometimes. It doesn't mean that. Does that mean I'm wrong? Does that mean that I'm like, my existence is just terminally unmarketable to the point of, like, why even try? And I actually remember the day where I had. I, Like, I was having a really tough day because this is a rough story, but I used to have this manager in New York, and I. You know, I just. I felt like I was still in this zone because also, I was a teenager, so I was in the zone of, like, these other people are going to do X, Y and Z for me. And I. And then at the same time, creatively, I'm coming from a very external place. I'm like. And I'm writing this in order to achieve this thing.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Gallant]

And long story short, I mean, after like, maybe like, six or seven or eight months of working together, and he was like, promising. He was like, oh, I'm doing this. I'm doing this thing. I straight up, I just went on his computer and I looked to. I just typed in my name to just see what kinds of conversations were happening or what, how it was being sold or what, how it was being packaged or explained. And it was just nothing, you know, so like, just zero communication. So I said, you know, and I don't know if it was this exact same day or the day after, but I slowly was realizing that this just wasn't place for me. Just metaphorically, like, just writing songs for the music industry, so to speak. And then also just New York, for some reason, I. I'm such a suburbanite, and I feel like, you know, I was born in, like, the very propped up, you know, suburb in the middle of the woods, you know, so. And it's like, people can hate on that configuration of things all day, but for some reason, that space and that ability to, like, breathe and go for a walk by the lake and, like, hang out at a close friend's house instead of, like, at some, you know, giant metropolitan gathering place felt really special to me. So I was already under all of that pressure just living in the city that I felt like wasn't matching my identity. And then I felt like I was around people that didn't value my uniqueness. And I went and I got a McFlurry from McDonald's at that time because I was like, I literally. I had, like, you know, I have. I always had at least I would say, $6 maximum in my bank account at that time, obviously. And most of the time it was in the negative. So I Was like, okay, I'm going to use my $3.17. I'm going to get an Oreo McFlurry. I'm going to go for a walk. I'm going to think about it. I think I was going to take the subway up to, like, the end of somewhere in the end of Brooklyn where I could get on, like, a ferry, you know, to Staten Island. I don't know if it's the end of Brooklyn to do that, but I was just gonna go get some space. And then I take the McFlurry and I go into the subway. And it was like a cosmic wind had all of a sudden come out of nowhere and gathered all of the dirt and the dust from the corners and, like, the cigarette ash from, like, the corners of the subway. And it just, in a swirl, like a magical Disney, like, swirl, it just went and deposited all the dust into my oriole McFlurry. And I basically snapped. I mean, I was like, dude, I was like, I can't take it. Like, this is the industry is not for me. I gotta get out of the city. And my friend at the time, luckily, who was a music producer, was going through similar feelings of just being a little bit disconnected and just disillusioned. And we just decided, we were like, hey, we should just move to la. We should just stop messing around with this. This company that we were working with at this at the time, and let's just, like, make our own. Let's just make a project. And. And literally, like, you know, that week we were looking at spots to go temporarily in la, which shout out to him. I mean, he basically just let me. I don't. I think he was able to get. Make a little bit of money at the time, so he was just kind of down to. To, like, have me tag along, you know, and. Which is amazing. I mean, I. Yeah, I owe a lot to him and. But we were just writing these songs and for no audience, really. It was just. For me, it was just me getting things off my chest. We were listening to a lot of Sufjan records. I remember there was this one period of time where I was just. I was so. I was, like, despondent, you know, basically. And I was on the couch and it was just, Sufjan dress looks nice on you playing and repeat. And then my friend was like, making this, like, ambient remix of the song too. And it was just like, hours and hours of that just on repeat. And then we ended up just saying, oh, we're gonna make, like a project and we had the windows open, and we, like, had the wind come in. And we were, like, getting excited. We were like, oh, yeah. Like, why don't we, like. Instead of, like, me being real close to the mic, I'll just be really far away, and then I'll just do, like, a whale sound. And then it would be like. But then we'll echo. We'll, like, echo it out and make it, like, verby. And then it will be like this other. And, you know, we just got started getting really, like, yeah, like, joyful about it. And I had never really felt that, like, that pull of the thing that I loved that much since I was in middle school, making songs that nobody. Nobody liked. And so I was just like, this, like, whatever this feeling is, is what I want to chase. Like, nobody's telling me what I have to listen to. Nobody's telling me what I have to be inspired by. I don't even know. The concept of marketing was evaporated from my brain at that point. I'm like, I don't even know what marketing is. I don't know what. And it doesn't. Yeah. You know, and so. And that was a project that was like, my very first EP that I called Zebra. And I just, like, put it together myself. And then I uploaded it on the Internet. And immediately after I uploaded it, just started applying to Starbucks. Because I'm like, I can't be borrowing money from my friends for the end of time. This is ridiculous. And then all of a sudden, it was a very slow and steady thing of one message being like, oh, this is really cool. On the Internet. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And then another message being like, oh, this is awesome, because it's combining this thing. And I was really into this artist called how to Dress well at the time, too. And it was like, oh, it was like, how to dress well. And it's like. And then people were like, oh, this is like shoegaze R and B. And then I was like, oh, yeah. Like, you understand me? Like, you get what I'm. It was such a surprising feeling, but there was no going back ever. Once I felt that feeling of validation, which is. That's a weird way to describe it, too. Cause I feel like that has such a weird connotation. But I just felt like I didn't have to change myself. I felt like I. My uniqueness and my specificity was a superpower in that moment. And to, like, betray that or to, like, dim it would be just so nonsensical and antithetical to being able to make anything in the future that I could look back on and be really proud of. And so, man, talk about long winded ways of coming back. To answer your question, dude, it's a great, It's a great.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's a great story, man. I was. I'm all in. Hey, in case you don't know, we have a monthly live virtual meetup every last Monday of the month with supporters of the show from Patreon and Substack. We have so much fun on these calls and they are the warmest, most encouraging creatives that I have ever met. And we also talk real creative practice stuff. We have authors, illustrators, lettering artists, picture book makers, fine artists, musicians, and folks that work in video and film as well. And we have people that are just starting out, people super established in their creative careers and everything in between. For the rest of this year, we're going to chat through our new Journey of the True Fan series, exploring questions and ways to apply these ideas to your own creative practice so that you can leave 2024 stronger than you came in with more visibility, connection with your audience and sales. Sign up to whichever suits you best@ either patreon.com creative pep talk or andy jpizza substack.com and I hope to see you at this month's meetup. One of the reasons I really like the Hero's Journey as a framework, especially for creativity, there's. There's kind of two things going on there. I really think about it like a creative hero's journey is there's home and then there's a way. So there's these two different places. Home is really who you are, but it's also kind of like what you know you are right now. So away is going away from yourself to see what you might become, but it's also leaving your comfort zone and you're in who you know you are. And so it's a dangerous game. And you always kind of end up, I think if you're doing a creative thing right, you're going to always end up in places where you're like, I shouldn't be here. This is not me. Like, and that's what I like about it is that it require, it has this like requirement of openness, which is required, you know, because you got to mess up, you got to push the limit. That's how you become something different. And that's also you. And so I'm just thinking about like this early experience of kind of moving away from yourself, moving away from listening to other people kind of taking on board what they want you to be and then coming back to yourself. What do you think the elixir is that you got from that journey? I mean, it sounds like it's something tied to this ability to listen to yourself. But what is it there? Do you think it is that kind of it?

[Gallant]

Yeah, I think, I definitely think it's because. Because even that, that whole experience that I just described, and I love, I love your, Your emphasis on the hero's journey, by the way. I feel like that's such a. That's such a grounding, just framework to view everything in, because it's also implying, I feel like that the story is never. Like the story is still continuing, you know, so you, Your, Your story only ends when you decide that you're gonna give up or that you're gonna stop and totally. And that's okay too, but. But yeah, I just love the fact that it's something that's constantly being written. But yeah, I do think that even to just go back to that one point of me, like, discovering that I could make something just by listening to my inner taste and just by. And even that flow state, I mean, I never, I was so. I had never felt that level of even just talking about it. It really makes me happy and like, excited. You know, it's like. It's like I'm playing with Legos. It's just like, ah. Like it's. And you don't, you don't get that feeling that much as an adult. So it's like, why wouldn't you want to just use that as the, as the barometer of where you're always trying to kind of get close to. You know, you're always trying to get in that gravitational pull of that feeling. And so I do think that when I was starting to like, gain a lot of traction with that first ep, and then all of a sudden I, you know, that's all that I do. And then I'm in that world and then signing to my friend's label at the time, which was great because my friend really understood me, and then making my first album and. But then when. It's when that first album got kind of picked up by a major label, and then it was. And then I'm in that world of major label. Just mania, I'm gonna call it that. Yeah. You know, which could be, you know, it's. It's just, it's just a lot all the time and a whirlwind. And I think that that Feeling of, like, wanting to always stay close to that. That inner taste. I think. I do think for some people, it kind of. I don't even know what the right way to describe it. Like. Like when somebody would say, oh, what about recording this song, for example? And then it's like all of a sudden the calculus comes, and it's all these numbers in front of your face, and you're like, if I do this, this could happen. But then what about this other thing? And then, could it really happen? Do they really know? But it's so far away from what I have. And then you say something like, no. And then they look at you like you have, like, you know, tentacles and, like, five heads. And sometimes I feel like that willingness and that just desire to stay as close to your own inner taste as possible. Not because you want to shut everything else down, and not because you want to close yourself off or because you don't want to collaborate, but just because you want to get close to that joyful feeling of, like, being a kid who loves music. But you love music for this set of reasons, and you love music, this set of sounds that really speaks to you. It's really hard to communicate. And so I guess I haven't found, like, any. Any real elixir. You know, there's always going to be that battle. And even now, I mean, I'm in a completely different battle, I would say, because, you know, we'll probably talk about that later. But I. I feel like at least if it's not an elixir, it's like, at least you have some sort of core, you know, you have some sort of center. And I. And I. And like you said, I do think that there's a lot of value in stepping outside of yourself sometimes. And, like, I love, like, exploring different pockets and different, like, sounds that I wouldn't normally do. I mean, after I finished my first album, I did my entire second album, basically, as a way to experiment with different sounds and work with, like, songwriters that I. Even just working with songwriters in general was always really difficult for me because it's hard to find somebody who's really just in your same headspace and can help you craft something that still feels like you, you know, but. But I think even. Even just knowing that I had that core of. All right, this is what is my inner taste. I'm going to always stick with my uniqueness, not just as a concept, but as a feeling. As a feeling of. This makes me excited. This makes me happy. If it's something that's Completely outside of myself. And sometimes. And it just still makes me happy, then cool. I discovered a new corner of something that's still very close to me. But I would just always try to keep it at least. I don't even want to give, like, a percentage. It's more like a gut feeling. It's like, here's a new person, here's a new sound, here's a different producer. But. And how are you feeling? And it's like, if your gut feeling is, this is just not right, and it's just too far and it just isn't right, then it's not right. But if the feeling is this is different, but it could be interesting, maybe we could do this. Maybe I could do this. And then you can start getting into a different version of the flow again where you're like, oh, yeah, like, this is different. But you can, like, subvert it with this thing and then you can add this bell. And then you could pour some of this milk on top, and then you could put some cilantro over there. If there's a way to still be in that joyful process while doing something new or while challenging yourself, at least for me, I've found that that is still a positive thing. And that means that you're not completely lost in space yet. But I'm still looking for the elixir. I wish I could find elixir that takes away.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That takes away. What are you?

[Gallant]

Just the overall feeling of the struggle. Yeah. You know, just the struggle of trying to balance those two worlds constantly. Of, like, am I locked into myself too much? Am I experimenting enough? Am I experimenting too much? Is this. Am I still. Am I losing myself yet? Am I. Am I on Earth1? Am I on Earth? 59.76 like, it's, you know, it's a constant, constant tug of war, I think.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I totally agree. And I. And I don't claim to have any. Like, I don't think that there is an answer. I don't have control over it in my own path. It's constant tug of war. Like, it is very difficult. But you know, how I think about it right now, or how I'm. It's kind of my hypothesis of how to work it out is something you said earlier was this idea of getting into the state of. I don't even know what marketing is. And I think the thing that I feel like is really juicy about that is the tension for me comes from when I'm trying to do the irrational creativity, gut level, prelingual, you know, just gut that thing, taste thing, visceral thing, when I'm trying to do that at the same exact time that I'm trying to do the rational, logical, marketing smart. Next thing, like when I'm trying to do both of those, I'm at war with myself. And if I can find that way of getting into the place where I'm like, I don't even remember marketing and get like, I don't even know what that is, getting in that zone. But then I think I really, and I feel like the people that can do that, that and then, and, and really own it and then, then go the other way when they need to go, okay, now I've made the album. Okay, now it's time to go to the other side. And I, and like we said, I said that episode you brought up, tie yourself to the ship so that you don't get taken by the sirens, because the business world is going to show these calculations in front of you and everything's going to be, oh, is that the smart decision? Or you know, because, and that's what I love about the idea of taste, is that the reason I'm so attracted to that idea is because I think that the decision making process on how to make something that's resonant is so complicated. It's so nuanced, it's so in. It has so many factors, like timeless factors and timely factors, things that are, why does this sound good? When it did, like, dude, like, you know, two or three years ago we were listening to TLC all the time and I was like, there's something about this record that just feels so good. And then if I listened to that five years prior, I would have been like Waterfalls. No, what, like there's a, you know, so there's a, there's something, there's. It doesn't make sense. It's not something you can describe fully. And part of it, it's fun to try to. But I think that's why that logical business thing of like, is this the smart decision? Or what's your rationale behind why it needs to be this way? I feel like that's where you kind of get into trouble. And so, But I do think you're describing, like, you have to be able. And that's why I always think of it as a mind game. It's a mind game with yourself of how do you access the part of yourself that you need fully when it's writing time. Because that's so different than editing time or promoting time. Like, right? And you're capable of all. Everyone's capable of all these different phases and, you know, states, but really hard. That's the sport, I think, you know, Definitely.

[Gallant]

And I feel like. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like the challenge, which is even what I was gonna get out when I'm said. I'm sure we'll talk about it later.

[Andy J. Pizza]

But, yeah, I wanted to go back.

[Gallant]

To challenge in that promotional phase or that, like, social media phase or that, like, you know, even if you don't know what marketing is, like, that marketing phase of trying to. Trying to match what you've done with the group of people who are gonna appreciate it the most, that, I feel like, is a whole separate exo universe of.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's a whole other game. It's a whole other game. Yeah.

[Gallant]

Because, you know, and in another episode, you really touched on this really Well, I think it was the episode that I mentioned way. You know, way back when I first reached out to you about episode 365 about social media platforms, and you know how, like, some people are more fluent in Twitter, some people are more fluent in Instagram, some people aren't fluent in any of those. So then it's just thinking about Spotify as a. As a social media platform.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Gallant]

And. And I was. I was just. I remember back then, I was just thinking about that because it's another balancing act of how do I stay true to myself and find even just the tiniest glimmer of that kid playing with Legos. When you're trying to craft a narrative and a story that has nothing to do with the art necessarily that you made, sometimes it can, I guess, but for the most part has more to do with trying to get your message seen by as many people as possible. And I feel like that's such an innately contradictory thing to try to. Especially when you have your full focus on it for a period of time. If you finished the thing and now you're fully ensconced in, like, that business angle of everything, it's like, how do you not lose yourself in that? And then how do you get to a point where you feel like you can create consistently and joyfully, even if there's, like, a tear that comes from your eye as you're experiencing. Experiencing a little passing glimmer of joy while you're making a reel for Instagram or something?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Gallant]

Like, how do you. How do you do that in a way that. That just gets you close to that. To that feeling of flow and.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, dude. Yeah, go on.

[Gallant]

Oh, no, please Please.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I was just. Dude, this is such a good conversation. And it's so. Yeah, it's something I think about all the time. And I. When you first reached out about that episode, I was so stoked because, you know, I don't. I'm not a musician. I know the music game is just a crazy thing that to wrap your head around it is impossible. So I don't claim to know that, but I got asked a question by a musician and I was just thinking about just one of the principles that I think about, which is, you know, there's kind of three phases to the way that someone becomes a true fan. And the first one is discovery. And so you want to go where people are. You want to. If you want to put your effort into being discovered, where people discover the kind of stuff that you want to go to that scene, right? And I kept seeing, like, musicians become comedians on TikTok and then try to get them over to their Spotify page. And I just felt like it's literally like giving away samples of your food from the food court, but you're in JCPenney and come over here. Like, we don't want. We're not hungry. We're looking for pants. Like, no. And so it's just, I feel like, to me. And then the other thing is all the musicians hate Spotify in some way. Some. We love when you put them on the playlist and stuff. But, you know, it's a complicated relationship, right? And I can say that because I don't have music, so I can say that. But. But then why at the same time are we so precious about it? Like, it's this pristine discography when really it's like social media in a way, you know, and you could. You can have your. Your vinyl like this. These are my albums. But then on Spotify being like, creative and exploratory and collaborative and all that kind of stuff. So anyway, that was the context of that. But. But the only thing I would say is it reminds me of something, that there's two things. One was the thing when I try to go into promotion mode, the fear that creates the tension of why I can't leave the creative flow zone is because as I get afraid that if I let go of my creative flow, that I'm not going to be able to do it again. I'm not going to be able to. That's where that other side comes in and distracts me and says, well, you haven't written a story in five months because all you've been doing is talking about the old stuff and like, oh, I need to get thinking about the next project because I need to make it even better than this one. All of these. Those are all the things that break you out of accepting that you're in a different phase and then owning that phase and then forget what music is now. You only know what marketing is not. That's too far. But that kind of. I think that I get in that thing of this fear of, like, I'm not going to be able to do it again or what, you know, all of that stuff. And so I do think, like, recognizing, oh, I'm trying to be two things at once, which are impossible. And instead of saying that, instead of fearing that I can't access that myself, that part of myself again, I can say, no, I'm actually taking a break from that. That's a great thing. Like, I'm taking a rest from that because I'm doing this other thing. And Cal Newport, I heard him talking about how there's a lot of types of work that people associate with flow, where if you look at the brain, it's not flow. So creativity, that that stuff is the flow. But I think, you know, this idea of, like, you're playing with Lego, I think the music side of it is it's like you're just playing with a huge bucket of Lego. And now that's just exploratory. And then there's the puzzle, the set. And it's like, now it's strategic. Now it's just like, okay, that's where we're trying to go. And that's the exploratory versus strategic or completely opposite of exploratory. Creativity is I'm going to start without knowing where it's going. And then strategic is I'm going to start with an end in mind and figure out how to work my way over there. And I think that those two brain states, you can't have them at the same time. And that's where that fear and that attachment, that it throws you off. But I'm saying it like, I know how to do it. I get it sometimes, but often not. It's very. But it's good to, like, recognize, like, oh, I'm. I'm not marketing this book because I'm afraid about the next book that I haven't even written yet. Instead of being like, no, man, it's break time from that. That's the thing. And you're good at this. You know how to go. You've done that. You know how to get in that flow state and get excited about new sounds and, like, all that kind of stuff. Anyway, now I'm. Now I'm, you know, ranting and.

[Gallant]

No, I feel like that's such a. That's. It's so true. Because. Because in some ways, I feel like it is. The, like, that exploratory phase is very. You know, it's like you're. You're. You're just. You're crossing a bridge, and you're imagining the ending of it and, like, switching it up in real time. It's like you're in, like, some VR game and you're just, like, building the world around you.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Gallant]

And it's not even like, that's better or worse or. It's just so different, so vastly different than somebody handing you a bomb that's about to explode and saying, please, can you disarm this? You know, and the levels of anxiety are completely different with each phase. So you're right. I mean, you can't. To have a bomb strapped to your chest that you're trying to disarm while you're also trying to build a world around you in VR so that you don't fall to your death in the bridge that you've built with your mind. I mean, that's so. Yeah, it's just. It's too much brain power. I mean, it is.

[Andy J. Pizza]

You can't. I just think your consciousness can't actually, like, be in those places at the same time. And so you're. It's like. They talk about how multitasking doesn't really exist. You're actually just going back and forth, and that is expending all this other energy because it's really hard to. Like that hard work stuff we're talking about. You know, they say, like, it takes you 15 minutes to get into that, and then every time you leave it, it takes another 15 minutes. And that's one of the reasons why I can find myself resisting that work is because when I sit down to do it 10 minutes in, I'm like, this sucks. And then, you know, and then. But 30 minutes, and I'm like, okay, I'm in a groove. Like, I'm like, I'm doing this. But I. Yeah, I think that's exact. And I love what you said about it's not that one. I do really think it's not. That one is better than the other. Like, I don't think that. And I. My example always. I go back to is the. The curb. Your enthusiasm is just. I think the brilliance of it Is it. They have a. The plot, which is the arc. That's the puzzle. That's a three part puzzle. It's a strategic creativity. And then they improv as they do it, which is. That's the exploratory. So they've figured out a way to kind of not do them at the same time, you know. So, yeah, I think it's. I think to me that is like, that's a huge part of why creativity, the sport of it is a mind game. It's like, how do you master your own mind and tell it where to go when you need it to go there? And yeah, it's tricky as hell.

[Gallant]

I love that Curb youb Enthusiasm example because that almost makes me think, is there a way? And not even, not even to put you on the spot with it, but is there a way? Do you feel when you're in the zone of, okay, now it's time for me to just get this out to as many people who are going to appreciate, you know, this body of work right now. Is there, is there a way that. That fits into the framework of like a larger creative vision? Is there a way that you can market something or like try to figure out like a new social platform or whatever it is, or trying to be strategic with Spotify or with whatever it is in a way that still fits into this more like childlike wonder aspect of doing something differently than other people have done it, but also it's effective.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Gallant]

Do you. Do you find like you. Do you find yourself able to get into a framework where at least it feels exciting and like, and creative?

[Andy J. Pizza]

I think it. I think, yes, but I think that it has to be. I have to realize that those states are different. And so when I go to. If I. And it's the same, that's why I think about it like it's the creativity of solving a problem rather than inventing a thing. It's like you're like a puzzle. A puzzle is creative, but it's a different energy. And I think getting familiar with that energy and the reason I did that episode about why it's so tricky to the puzzle energy is more that business side and the only. The real trick, I think once you figure out how to access that part of you is not living and dying there because it is the logic side and it's the part of you that is so much craftier and it doesn't value the other side because it is this side of you that's like, no, I know how to make happen. I know how to like, go over there and chart my way and get the award. And, you know, all you do is like, play. And, and so that part of you, it can be really. I think finding it is hard. The way I think about it is Jad Abumrad, who was the, one of the creators of Radiolab, he talked about it like gut churn. And to me, I'm like, this is a different type of creativity. It doesn't feel like flow. It feels like wrestling. But when you realize, like, but I'm wrestling for fun, like, this is a fun. It can be fun. It's just. You're like the gut churn. It's like a. Yeah, it's like anything that you're doing, like a, Like a sport that's Has a pain to it, but you're like, oh, but it's. It can be like I'm solving a puzzle. And so I think that's kind of. I don't think it's exclusive, but I think learning to love that side is really powerful. When you start thinking more strategically about how do I. Now it's time to get it out there. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's how I start thinking about it.

[Gallant]

It does, it does. And I feel like, yeah, that's, that's. Yeah. I love even to take it back to the Spotify example with, with you bringing up. I think that's probably. I think what you're describing is what made that advice that you were giving that musician so salient. Because you're coming from a place of applying that mentality to something that when you're just in, when you're, when you're in the industry and when you know how everything works, it's like. Not to put words in that musician's mouth specifically, but I could imagine that musician being like, Spotify is not a social media platform. You can't Spotify. You can't have fun with Spotify in that way. But then, because you're just working backwards from that frame of, oh, you know, what. What is the experimental and interesting way of living in that space. But like you said, not living and dying in that space. And then from an outside perspective, this is how I see it. You can, you know, social, Social media is what. Let's decode, let's break it down to the basic elements of what it is. Like you said, discovery, et cetera, and then applying that to this platform that nobody thinks about as a social media platform works.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes.

[Gallant]

And I even, I wonder, I'm like, what. What else does that same framework apply to.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. And I. Go ahead. Sorry.

[Gallant]

Oh, no. I was going to say, just thinking about that. Just thinking about that. Thinking about the fact that there could be possibilities that are a little bit more endless, you know, is a little exciting. It's like, oh, yeah. What else is. What else is at the bottom of the ocean? You know, and we're here. You know, maybe. Maybe we don't have to go way out in space to find something new. Maybe. Maybe it's digging a deeper in the. In the plot of land right here in my backyard, you know?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. And the other. Yeah. And I think that the other thing, you saying that made me think that thinking the thing that can be fun, about the business side, about the marketing side, whatever the puzzle side is that you don't have to be precious and romantic about it because you got your statement. So this is my statement. That's your album. That's your creative side. And you're like, cool, man. Love that. Good job, buddy. You did the art thing great. That's. And that's. I mean, dude, if you're an artist, that's your jam. So I'm only teasing myself here, but that is because that's what I get. So, like, this is art. Like, you know, if I'm going to tell a story or do a book or whatever. But then when I go on the other side, what can be. The fun part is that I can be light with it. So I can be like, okay, why don't the next. I could do a whole album of remixes, and this is just about. It doesn't have to be like my exact taste. This can be fun, exploratory, weird, experimental. Because I've already made this, the statement. Now I can be like, all right, who do I want to work with? What would be weird? What would be fun? What would just get to some of the people that I want to get it to, perhaps, or connect with one of these musicians. And then now you're doing what is essentially 10 collaborative posts, but they're just remix singles, you know, and then now you're getting. You're just kind of extending your little network. And I think the key is you don't need. What you don't need is you don't need infinite people to discover the work. First of all, you know, you already have people that love the work and that are going to follow, but you just want to get. You want to. Every time you want to throw out your net, bring them in, and then they. The second thing is they're going to get trust with your album. That's how they're going to go deeper into that. And then now they're like, in. And then you can start thinking about, okay, how do I make a career of that? And that's like, tour and merch and sales and all that. But.

[Gallant]

Exactly.

[Andy J. Pizza]

But, yeah, I think that's. That can be. The fun part is I don't have to be precious about this when I'm making the bonus material around. You know, the YouTube shorts, if I'm making a movie. The YouTube shorts that are not canon within the movie, they're playing with it, you know, I think that can be just, like, fun.

[Gallant]

That's. That's so true. And not to. Not to bring it. Well, I mean, I was gonna say not to bring it back around to my album, but please do. But the. It's relevant because the song that you talked about at the beginning, Cold Star.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Gallant]

That literally came from that exact process that you were describing. I feel like that song was just me and my friend that I work with a lot. Just. He's a producer messing around and making, like, a side project. And we're like, this is gonna be a side project. I'm gonna. And I was like, I'm gonna sing this as if I'm just, like, a completely different person. Like, I imagine the avatar. I'm like, this dude with, like, a bandana and a ponytail, and I'm, like, in my mid-40s, and I'm, like, lying on the couch, and I'm. And I. And like, my. I have one kid, and that kid is off, like, doing whatever, because I had them when I was a teenager, and now I'm just singing very softly into this microphone. And I don't know. I've never done falsetto. I've never sung, like, projected my voice. And then we made, like, a whole project. But then something about this one song was really, like, just interesting to me as, like, a music fan. And then obviously, you know, the business side comes back in, and then you accidentally have somebody from your label hear it, and then they're like, all right, well, this has to be on the record, you know, but there. But you're right. There's something so powerful about the lack of pressure, because in some way, it's. It's almost like. At least for me, when I think about how things line up, sometimes I do feel like when I started writing stuff from. For this album, there was not a lot of pressure because it was coming right off the back of something that I had just completed. And Spent and like, worked really hard to make this, like, EP that I did that was more like very 2000, early 2000s R&B. And I was like, great. I got that off my chest. Like you said, you're like, cool. I did it. And that's what it is. Now I'm going to have fun.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Gallant]

And I think at that point then I started this album and I was like, now I'm going to have fun and then make these songs that just kind of are a combination of a different thing or a bunch of different things I like. But then even that, once that's done, then I'm like, cool, Now I'm going to have fun and do this collaborative project with these jazz musicians that I really respect and then make that its own separate thing. And then me and my friend are going to go to Alaska and do this other side project. And I'd never been able to fully get into that state until recently. Honestly, just based off of hearing what you were saying about that continuing wheel of just like churning flow state without the added pressure of everything having to be the most incredible piece of work that's ever been known to mankind. And you're right that even to bring it back to what we're talking about with the business side of things and like social media and whatever, I mean, that framework applies there too. Like being so. Allowing yourself to find the fun and find the flow and find the joy in knowing that it doesn't have to be such a pressure cooker all the time. Like there doesn't have to be. It obviously doesn't have to be perfect. Like nothing is going to be perfect. But even going one step beyond it and being like, not quite, like, completely nihilistic about it, probably to where it's like it just doesn't matter at all. But yeah, it's like the. The thing that makes this special is the fact that it's going to feel effortless, but there's going to be some level of effortlessness to it and there's going to be some patina of, like, low stakes, you know, with this work, whether it's a book or, you know, illustration or music. And that is really comforting. I've never thought about applying that to the, like, promotional phase of everything also. Yeah, I think that's really powerful and.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I think, you know, it makes me think, okay, there's another framework kind of hack to your brain. The one you mentioned about the creative side. This is one that I think about all the time. I think the ultimate hack of the creative side is this is a side project. This is. There's no pressure on that. And it's actually like, when I, you know, I don't. As I've gotten. When I was younger, okay. Like, my favorite musicians, I constantly wanted them to be, like, taking it to the next level and at their peak thing, like, whatever it is, like, you think your favorite band, you're like, I want them to go from this to that and maintain everything I liked from before. But then, you know, I don't know, I just had this kind of weird energy about, like, how I thought about them. I don't feel like that anymore. Like, I feel like. And the reason I say that is because one example I think about a lot is Ben Gibbard. Ben Gibber when he's making Postal Service and Transatlanticism. And I'm. And I think, you know, if I'm Ben Gibbert and I want peak performance my whole life, then I'm like, I would just be doing side project Death Cab. Side project Death Cab. And just. That is the way you're hacking both sides. And I think Justin Vernon from Bonavert does this super well. That's why he's got a million side projects. And then Bonaver, because you can just do this. And so getting into that low pressure, I think that's so essential for flow. And then. But then I would say, then I'm trying to think of like, okay, and so what's the hack to get into the other side? And I don't. I. Off the top of my head, I don't know, but I know it's something. But I do know it's something similar to what you said about, okay, it's almost the opposite version of when you are going into that song and you create this avatar and now you're embodying this guy who just doesn't give a shit. And he's like, whatever it is. And then what's the other avatar that you still can relate to? It kind of feels like embodying an archetype where you're like, okay, what's a. What's an archetype of the. That I do relate to that I know is a part of me? Because you might have, like, okay, this is the Han Solo part. This is the part that's, you know, Luke Skywalker, like, whatever they are. These are all the different. There's all. There's a million archetypes. But how do you find the one that's like, that's part of you that can achieve this next phase, which is not about like you said, like, that's the thing that's interesting is like flow is like the effortlessness, but the gut churn, that's like the effort that's like, okay, now it's time to frickin do justice to this. All of the brilliant moments that happened to create this album. Because now it's gotta be now. It's time for the guy to get out there and make sure people give it a chance. It's a different avatar, it's a different archetype. I don't know what that is, but it's. I feel like it's something in that zone and it's cool because you're like. And then another guy can rest. The other guy, the creative guy, he didn't have to do that for a while and that's actually going to make him better next time around.

[Gallant]

But that's so true. I love that idea. That's so cool. You're right. I wonder. Yeah, I'm going to dive. I feel like I'm going to be awake till like 4am Thinking about that.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Just gotta think about like, maybe there's a musician too that you're like, you know, that person knew how to launch a thing, that person knew how to, you know, And I love them because you gotta find one where you're like, I feel a kinship to this archetype, you know, where it's not. It doesn't feel gross. You don't want to put on a costume. You're like, I hate this. I don't want to be this person. You know.

[Gallant]

Exactly.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Last thing I want to ask you about was going, it's kind of in the vein of this avatar thing. I heard you mention like a mood board for this album and like setting the tone. I also love, I don't know when this was, but the tweet about making music for people that have to step away from the social situation and look in the mirror. Like, that's me, by the way. I got to have a few breaks, like gather my shit. I'm like, okay, man.

[Gallant]

You're with people so real.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And I love, like, I imagine like hearing your music in that bathroom being like, okay, like connecting back to myself. But I just thought like, as I'm like looking at everything you do and the album cover, the photographer you worked with feels very like Prodigy, Chemical Brothers, like real, like so evocative, imagery wise. And so I wondered if you could maybe just that with the avatar thing, set some kind of prompt for creators to think about how they get into that priming of what's the tone you're trying to set? How do you get into that? Even with synesthetic, like, leaps of not. You know, you're making music, but you're looking at images. Like, how do you. Can you talk about that a little bit?

[Gallant]

Yeah, of course. I feel like. Thanks for bringing that up because I do feel like every artist is different. Some people, you know, prefer to start from, like, chords or lyrics and build the whole thing around that. But I really. I love the fact that I could build piece by piece, just like a visual world or like a stylistic world. And then I kind of know what it, like, smells like. I know how cold it is. I know what it would feel like if I got knocked down. Like, how much dirt residue would be on my. My elbow. Like, all of those little pieces, I feel like, can feed back into the music in such a really interesting way. And it is a little chicken in the egg. Like, I could. I could go through, like, a bunch of stuff on my hard drive that I, like, started. And then I could be like, oh, this thing really connects to me. What is this? And then I'll kind of extrapolate from that. I'll be like, this kind of feels like, you know, a screenshot of the movie clock stoppers from 2003 that I got when I got my PlayStation 2.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Gallant]

Just random, you know. And then I'm like, okay. Clock Stoppers is like, Clock Stoppers.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I love it. It's like, love that reference, dude. Yes.

[Gallant]

I haven't thought of that movie in so long. I hope there's one listener who's just like, clock Stoppers is my favorite movie.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes.

[Gallant]

I cannot believe I'm all about those.

[Andy J. Pizza]

References that you're like, nobody else will make this reference. That's how you know there's something there. That's good, right? Yeah.

[Gallant]

Oh, man. But I'm like, all right, cool. Like, there's something. There's something that's just like, really cool about the way the color grading of this scene of Clock Stoppers.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Gallant]

And then, like, the opening, you know, just. Just ambience of like, a PlayStation 2. And then this one snowboard level in this game where they're doing where the music is kind of this, like, jungly post SEGA Dreamcast kind of like Liquid Jungle that isn't too electronic, but they're not using the break beats that everybody knows. They're not using the amen break, but they're using something else. And it, you know, it's like. Then all of a sudden you get like, into this wormhole. And for me, once I start seeing the cyclone form, I'm like, okay, let me go on Pinterest and Let me. Which is probably my favorite social media platform, I would say. I mean, it's just so.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I love it.

[Gallant]

Yeah. Like, it never breaks your flow. You're just constantly in it. I don't know what the AI recommendation models are, but it's just so it's specific. Yeah, Right. And. And then I'm like, okay, I put together this board, but then I, like, leave the board. And then I'm like, oh, but then I heard this. And then if this thing. If this other thing that feels a little bit more like, experimental, like R and B mixed with something that is a more like Appalachia, like, 10 guitars layered on top of each other thing, then how does that connect with this jungly thing? Oh, maybe it's not about having this acid, like, synth on top of that. Maybe that's not part of the ingredient. Maybe it's having, like, an electric guitar that has, like, a sustained note that I can end on the 7th. And then that goes with the jungle break. And then that electric guitar moment connects to the acoustic guitar moments. And then, you know, it's like you get into this flow where you're like, oh. And then that is not necessarily like the scene from the Matrix, but it's this other scene from this, like, you know, Disney Channel original movie from 2000, you know, three that came out and nobody really watched it. And, you know, it's like you. You keep, like. It's like you have this. This block of marble, and then you're just constantly, like, chiseling away and, like, softening the edges. And I feel like that process is really fun because you're. You're not starting with, like, okay, these are the songs that I've written. And like I said, every artist is different. And it's really cool if you can just start from just chords and the songs, and then you have the songs, and you're just living in the sonic space, and you're just, like, cool. These songs go together, but for me, personally, I love being, like, cool. Now I have to. Now I'm going to change now I'm going to lift the vocal from this song, and I'm going to take out all of the elements of this music that doesn't connect with this image. And then I'm going to merge together this Appalachian feeling with this, like, more gospel choir. And then. And then, you know, it's like. Then all of a sudden, all the songs start getting more and more coagulated into this vision that also matches the series of images on Pinterest that I have. But then I also go back and edit and add to and reshape.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Gallant]

And then all of a sudden, I feel like it starts coming together and then the world is building. So then when you're like, oh, or at least for me, then when I'm thinking of, oh, what's the title of this? Then I. Then I see these images and I have these songs, even if it's not finished yet. And then I'm like, oh, it kind of feels like maybe like a little bit of, like a chemical. Maybe there's some biological thing. Maybe there's like, X rays. And then I'm like, oh, X rays. Then that influence that's connected to this lyric. And then this could be the image of this. And then, oh, maybe I want to make the album cover kind of feel like there's like some sort of, like, weird acid overlay, like in an X ray imaging thing. Oh, atomic. Oh, there's a song called Atoms on this thing. Oh. That collects. Connects to the molecular structure. You know, you start just getting, like, cracked out of your mind in a way.

[Andy J. Pizza]

No, man. Like, that's the stuff. That right there. That right there was one of the best chunks of explaining what it feels like to, like, be locked into some creative stuff. Like, that is exactly the energy. And I'm. Dude, I'm like. I'm, like, getting high off that supply. I'm like, oh, I need. Oh, I need to go back and do it. Because that's when you're in the thick of it. That's it. And I love what you're saying about. It's. You know, you're not starting with the blank page either. Now you're starting with. And I. And I did a similar thing in one of my most important books that I made, or my favorite one was I. I did the reverse where I'm like, I'm starting with a playlist to make pictures. And so it's this and it's. There's this. I think it's the nonverbal sensory thing where, like, I'm getting past logic. I'm getting into trusting the symbolism of this. Like, and you're. And there's. And then you're saying, oh. And what I'm trying to do, it's in between these things. It's like a. There's like an emergent phenomenon that comes from the mood board where, like, my thing is this thing that's like, not yet, but it's somewhere in this constellation. I love it. And I think that's a really great prompt for creators to take. Take the medium that you're not working in and then create a playlist, create the mood board, and start just feeling it out and looking for the patterns, looking in between, because it's somewhere in there. And then it's also something that doesn't exist. It's going to emerge from those things. It's really cool.

[Gallant]

Exactly.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Dude.

[Gallant]

I love, I love your. I love the focus of starting in a platform or starting in a medium that you're not already deep in the sauce with. Because you're right. That's. That's what makes it fun. Because you're, you're not, you're not. You're not coming from like a technical perspective, you know, like, from. For you, I'm sure if it was just like a bunch of like different illustrations, you'd be. You'd be, you know, thinking about like, oh, it's this. They're using this specific, like, type of pencil and they're doing.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, yeah.

[Gallant]

It's like they're doing these colors. Yeah, exactly. And it's not about. It's not necessarily about that. It's just about like, how does it make you feel and what other emotions line up with that. And then you as just an observer with no connection to the medium, what impression does it leave in your brain when you step away from it for a second? And that's such a fun place to be, man. I'm totally with you on that, dude.

[Andy J. Pizza]

This was so fun. I gotta let you go. But I hope we get to do it again. I hope we get to chat more. And I'm really excited for your album to come out and I can't wait to see where that goes. And if you want a soundboard, throw anything over. I'd love to, love to chat more if you just need someone to help you get into that other zone for a minute.

[Gallant]

But yeah, this was so much fun at the time. Flew by too. I feel like I could keep talking for like four or five more hours.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. So this is another flow. You can get into this flow as you're on the promo cycle, hopefully.

[Gallant]

Yeah, man.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. All right, well, thanks for. Thanks for taking the time.

[Gallant]

Thank you so much, Andy. Such a pleasure.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yo, I'm back. Huge thanks. Thank you, man, for coming on the show and giving me so much of your time. It was a blast chatting with you. Feel like just taste wise and creatively that were just cut from the same cloth in a lot of different ways. And then in a lot of ways, you just blow my mind. So, so talented and excited to spend a lot more time with your album as it. As it comes out into the world. Go check it out. Either if it's out already or if it's not. Pre. Save it on Spotify. The album is Zinc by Gallant and you can find him on Instagram as well. So Galant at so Gallant and on that cta. I'll just quickly summarize it. Make a synesthetic leap mood board. Take a something that is not your medium and create a collection that has the right feeling and vibe, that goes beyond words and kind of get into that zone as you move into this other thing. You know, I've heard these people that temporarily lose access of the left side of their brain, the language side, the logic side, and they talk about all senses bleeding into one. I think there's something there. There's something mystical about how do you tap into something that goes beyond whether it's a picture or a word or a smell or a sight or a sound or whatever. It's beyond that. Something visceral. And I think capturing that from something that isn't your medium can help you get out of, like, the tropes and the trends and get into something a little bit more timeless. And I was really inspired by hearing him jam on that. So freaking good. Thank you, man. Hope we get to chat again sometime and go check out his songs. The last song on that album when it comes out. I don't think as the time I'm recording this, it's not out. It might be out by the time I release it. I love the. The last song Lucid. I love Lucid Dreaming, but also it's just the epic ending. And Cold Star has such a driving sound. They're all great. It's a. It's a great one just to throw on, just to have in your atmosphere. All right, man, thanks. Hope to talk to you again. Good luck with the album launch. Creative Pep Talk is a weekly podcast designed to help you build a thriving creative practice. But that's the thing. It only works if it's an actual practice. It has to become a habit. We make this show every single week so that your creativity can go from being a thing that you do sometimes to a creative discipline, to immerse you in a world of creatives that are doing the same, where those kind of behaviors are normal. One way we help you stick to this is by sending you the new episodes via email to your inbox every single week so that you never miss a week. And we often add bonus content like pictures and links and extra related stuff to the episode that you're not going to get just from the apps. Go to andyjpizza.substack.com to sign up to the free email newsletter and I'll have the accountability to stay on the creative path and keep this streak going and hopefully it will inspire you to do the same. And if you sign up right now, you'll get immediate free access to our ebooklet the Creative Career Path. It's a step by step roadmap for creating a project that is designed to unlock your dream creative clients and opportunities. Sign [e-mail] and let's keep this creative habit together. Creative Pep Talk is part of the podglomerate Network. You can learn more about podglomerate at wwe. This has been another episode of Creative Pep Talk, a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. Hey, it's dangerous to go alone. Take this podcast with you week in and week out by subscribing to the show to keep you company and keep the best creative practices top of mind so that little by little, week in and week out, you can make progress progress in your own creative practice. I'm your host, AJ Pizza. I'm a New York Times Best selling author and illustrator and I make this show not because I have it all figured out, but because as a squishy creative artist type that's prone to big emotions, it takes a whole lot of creativity to just get out of bed sometimes. So every week I put out the ideas that are helping me stay disciplined and stay excited and have helped me stay on this creative path for the past 15 years plus in hopes that it might help someone else or at the very least help them feel less alone on their own creative journey. Massive thanks to Yoni Wolf and the band Y for our theme music, thanks to Connor Jones of Pen Beautiful for editing and sound design, thanks to Sophie Miller for podcast assistance of all sorts, and most importantly, thanks to you for listening. And until we speak again, stay pepped up. Hey y'all, one more quick thing. Earlier this year I rebuilt my website using Squarespace's new Fluid engine and I was so pumped about how it turned out that I have been really thrilled to find as many ways to partner with them and tell you about what they can do and bring you discounts as possible. With social media going haywire, I think having a site that feels as unique as your creative work is essential to building trust with your target audience or your clients. I have had several clients point out how cohesive and fresh my site looks lately and if you want to check that out and what I was able to do without any code, check out andy jpizza.com if you want to test it out, go to squarespace.com Pep Talk to test it out yourself and when you're ready to launch, use promo code pep talk for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks Squarespace for supporting the show and for supporting creative people. I'm Whit Miseldine, the creator of this Is Actually Happening, a podcast from Wondery that brings you extraordinary true stories of life changing events told by the people who lived them. From a young man that dooms his entire future family with one choice to a woman that barely survived her roommate, we dive into what happened and hear their intimate first person account of how they overcame remarkable circumstances.

[Gallant]

Follow this Is Actually Happening on Amazon.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Music or wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free by joining Wondry in the Wondry app.