475- The Anatomy of Storytelling and Where to Start, With Brian McDonald

Summary

Creative Pep Talk: Episode 475 - The Anatomy of Storytelling and Where to Start, With Brian McDonald

Release Date: October 16, 2024

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Introduction

In Episode 475 of Creative Pep Talk, host Andy J. Pizza welcomes renowned author and story expert Brian McDonald to delve deep into the intricacies of storytelling. Building upon their previous collaboration in Episode 326, where Brian and branding expert Jesse Bryan discussed their podcast You Are a Storyteller, this episode focuses exclusively on Brian's expertise and his influential book, Invisible Ink. Brian shares profound insights into the foundational elements of storytelling, emphasizing the importance of substance over superficial flair.

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Invisible Ink: A Foundational Guide to Storytelling

Andy opens the discussion by highlighting the monumental impact Brian's Invisible Ink has had on his own creative practice. He states:

“There’s not a lot that has influenced me as much next to this, maybe the Hero’s Journey, Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung stuff, but this is right up there. It is foundational for how I think about storytelling or the podcast.”
(00:21)

Brian provides a candid look into the genesis of Invisible Ink. Rejected by Disney's fellowship program, Brian's frustration with recommended screenwriting books fueled his determination to create a resource he felt was lacking. This personal journey not only led to his authorship but also uncovered his latent talent for teaching storytelling effectively.

“When one of my students, very first class, she said to me, you should write a book. And I was like, yeah, yeah. People tell me that... she looked me dead in the eye and she said, no, you're good at this. You have a responsibility to write a book.”
(08:17)

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The Essence of Story: Beyond Surface Elements

A central theme of the episode revolves around distinguishing between the surface elements of a story—such as plot and action—and the deeper, often invisible, components that give a story its lasting impact.

Armature: The Invisible Backbone

Brian introduces the concept of the armature, a metaphorical skeleton that underpins every great story. Drawing from his experience in creature shops, where armatures support sculptures, he explains:

“The armature is the point you're trying to make. It doesn't have to be obvious. It doesn't have to be there on the surface for everybody to see, but it has to be there in every decision that you make about the characters that inhabit that story... It has to be built around the armature.”
(33:28)

This armature is akin to the story's central idea or theme, serving as the guiding force for all narrative decisions. Without it, a story devolves into a disjointed series of events lacking coherence and purpose.

Structure vs. Story

Andy and Brian explore the often misunderstood relationship between structure and story. Brian clarifies:

“A story doesn't have a structure. A story is a structure. The same way a building is a structure or a bridge is a structure. They are structures. So if you don't link the events together, they are not a story.”
(13:05)

This perspective shifts the focus from rigid structural frameworks (like the traditional three-act structure) to viewing the story itself as the embodiment of its structure, organically arising from the interconnectedness of its elements.

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The Power of the Point: Meaning Over Events

Brian emphasizes that what truly matters in a story is how events impact characters and resonate with the audience, rather than the mere occurrence of those events.

“It matters how the action impacts the characters and the audience.”
(07:28)

He illustrates this with a poignant example:

“There was a story, a woman who was in a concentration camp in World War II... one day he passed an apple to me. And she goes, I don’t know when the last time I had seen an apple. So that would have meant he would have had to sacrifice his own food... The action hasn't changed. It's someone handing someone an apple. But what's underneath all of it?”
(11:20)

This underscores the idea that actions gain significance through their underlying meanings and the emotional weight they carry within the narrative context.

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Art vs. Story Mechanics: The Cup and the Coffee

Andy introduces a metaphor to differentiate between the artistic and mechanical aspects of storytelling:

“I call it the cup and the coffee. So the coffee is like the substance. It's the espresso, it's the... it's what people are there for. And the cup you put it in needs to match the flavor.”
(54:51)

Brian expands on this, relating it back to the armature:

“If you listen to your armature, you become a servant of that armature. Every decision you make is based on an armature. You will be more creative than you could otherwise be.”
(57:59)

Using the example of Peter Pan, Brian dissects the crocodile with a ticking clock, revealing how it symbolizes death and the passage of time, aligning perfectly with the armature of Captain Hook's fear and eternal pursuit.

“Once you have your armature, you become a servant of that armature. You will be more creative than you could otherwise be.”
(57:59)

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Vulnerability: The Heart of Storytelling

A significant portion of the dialogue focuses on vulnerability as the source of authentic storytelling. Brian asserts that the armature must stem from personal experiences and truths:

“You have to look inside for the armature. There is something that you have learned from some hardship... All of that means there is something you survived, and there's something you know to be true from your experience.”
(61:04)

Andy echoes this sentiment, highlighting the importance of connecting with the audience on an emotional level through vulnerability:

“As an act of trust with your audience... they say, how did they know that about me.”
(63:54)

This mutual trust fosters a deeper connection, making the story resonate more profoundly with listeners or readers.

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Collaboration and Creative Choices

Andy and Brian delve into the dynamics of collaboration in storytelling, using the armature framework to streamline decision-making among creative teams. Brian explains how distinguishing between the armature (soul), the muscle (mechanics), and the skin (surface elements) can prevent creative blocks and ensure cohesive storytelling.

“When you're working with someone and they say, maybe... But we're still building bones. Let's just build bones. He finds it out. We'll figure that out later. We just need that. Right?”
(45:43)

This structured approach ensures that the story remains true to its core idea while allowing flexibility in execution.

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Examples of Effective Storytelling

Brian provides exemplary analyses to illustrate his points, with Peter Pan serving as a primary example:

“Captain Hook is also running from death, right?... So the ticking clock with teeth is chasing Hook. Right?”
(56:04)

He contrasts timeless classics like The Wizard of Oz with modern productions, demonstrating how the enduring strength of a story lies in its armature rather than its superficial elements.

“Style has moved on from those things. It has not diminished anyone's enjoyment of those things.”
(52:51)

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Call to Adventure: Finding Your Story's Armature

As the episode draws to a close, Brian offers actionable advice for creatives seeking to discover their own armatures:

“You have to look inside for the armature. There is something that you have survived, and there's something you know to be true from your experience.”
(61:04)

He encourages creators to embrace vulnerability, trust their inner truths, and let these core ideas guide their storytelling, ensuring authenticity and resonance in their work.

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Conclusion

Episode 475 of Creative Pep Talk provides a comprehensive exploration of storytelling's deeper mechanics. Brian McDonald adeptly unpacks the significance of the armature, the vital role of vulnerability, and the delicate balance between art and storytelling mechanics. For creatives aiming to craft meaningful and impactful stories, this episode serves as an invaluable guide, emphasizing that true storytelling transcends plot and action to touch the very essence of human experience.

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Where to Find Brian McDonald

To delve deeper into Brian's insights on storytelling, listeners are encouraged to explore his book, Invisible Ink. The book is available at major bookstores and online retailers. Additionally, Brian can be followed on Instagram @bmickitd or through his website at Invisible Ink.

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Additional Resources Mentioned

• Invisible Ink by Brian McDonald: A seminal work on the foundational elements of storytelling.
• Episode 326 of Creative Pep Talk: Featuring Brian McDonald and Jesse Bryan discussing their podcast You Are a Storyteller.
• Otto Rank's "The Myth of the Birth of the Hero": For those interested in the historical underpinnings of storytelling archetypes.

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Stay tuned to Creative Pep Talk for more inspiring episodes designed to elevate your creative practice, featuring experts and thought leaders from various creative fields.

Transcript

[Brian McDonald]

On the creative journey, it's easy to get lost, but don't worry, you'll lift off. Sometimes you just need a creative pep talk.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Creative Pep Talk is a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. I'm your host, Andy J. Pizza. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and illustrator and this show is Eddie Everything I'm learning about building and maintaining a thriving creative practice, let's get into it. Author and story expert Brian McDonald is back on the show. We had Brian and his collaborative partner, branding expert Jesse Bryan, on an earlier episode of this podcast, episode 326. They came to talk about their podcast, you are a Storyteller and we just jammed and talked about storytelling. It was a great episode. If you like this episode, I said go back to 326 and listen to that one. I wanted to have Brian back on on his own because he has a new edition of his book, his brilliant book Invisible Ink. It has been re released. This book is one of the biggest influences on me in terms of story. There's not a lot that has influenced me as much next to this, maybe the Hero's Journey, Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung stuff, but this is right up there. It is foundational for how I think about storytelling or the podcast. Public speaking and kids books can't recommend it enough. If you're new to the idea of storytelling, this is a great book to start with. The foreword of the book is written by Stuart Stern, the screenwriter of Rebel Without a Cause. Brian has done consulting work for the likes of Pixar and New Line Cinema and Sony Games, just to name a few. And this chat that we had is just chock full of so much great story stuff and some of my favorite ideas around story. A couple things to listen out for in this episode. Number one is I believe that the key to making great creative work isn't just having flashy, timely, fashionable styles and themes, but having deep, timeless substance that only storytelling can provide and speaking in a language that speaks to the deepest parts of us that only story can. This episode is full of tips on how to do just that. Stay until the end of this episode. At the end, Brian has his own creative call to adventure about how you can find the stories that you already have within you that are just waiting to be told. So stick around for that and I'll be back at the end just to wrap everything up. For now, let's get into this episode with Brian McDonald. Miro is a collaborative virtual workspace that syncs in real time for you and your team. So that you can innovate an idea into an out outcome seamlessly. We talk a lot on this show about the idea of how creative research shows that playing with the problem is essential to innovation. Now, when I think of play, I don't think of documents and email. So if your team is often working remote, you need something more dynamic and collaborative. I think that Miro's mind maps and flowcharts, where team members can edit and play in real time, has a lot more capacity for innovation and planning with the problem than traditional ways of collaborating over the Internet. Whether you work in innovation, product design, engineering, ux, agile or it, bring your teams to Miro's revolutionary innovation workspace and be faster. From idea to outcome. Go to miro.com to find out how. That's M I R O.com I'm a believer in the idea of dressing for the job you want, not the job you have. And I have applied this to my creative practice too. Which means if you want professional results, you need to present online like a pro. And that means going beyond social media and having a professional website that reflects your style and looks legit. I rebuilt my site this year with Squarespace's Fluid engine and was so happy with how easily I could build my vision without coding that when they approached me to support the show, I jumped at the chance because I love and use this product. So go check it out. Squarespace.com Pep talk to test it out for yourself. And when you're ready to launch your site, use promo code. Pep talk. All one word, all caps for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks goes out to Squarespace for supporting the show and supporting creators all over the world. I love the way you think. It's. It's very. I mean, I wouldn't put myself in your shoes. I think you do something I. I don't do, but I relate to it heavily and I'm really.

[Brian McDonald]

What do you think that I do? What do you think that I do? I don't think.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, I think what you do is. It's something around seeing big picture. That's how I would think about it.

[Brian McDonald]

Okay. Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That you're. And I'm very, very similar to that now.

[Brian McDonald]

Okay.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I know we both consider ourselves to be neurodivergent.

[Brian McDonald]

Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

In. In some manner. I'm guessing something about that kind of brain chemistry. Maybe it's heavily. Right. Brain thing. I don't really know the ins and outs of it, but I think it's something around that I think when I. I know this is an Oversimplification. But when I think of right brain versus left brain, which is also an oversimplification, I think of big picture, you know, head in the clouds and then left brain being detail oriented, feet on the ground, really in the details.

[Brian McDonald]

Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And I think that you and I interact with story and in a similar fashion, where I am thinking about it through the lens of the. The. The point. The heart.

[Brian McDonald]

Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Why it works too. Like, what are the. What are the mechanisms they're using to make it have an effect on me? So I'm. I'm thinking like that. And I think you're really insightful in terms of. I think most people just don't have. It's almost like, you know, to get to your book Invisible, Inc. It's. I think that part is invisible to most people. They're not seeing that element. There's. And that's why, you know, most people that love. When they say they love story, they say what they really mean is they. They're thinking about plot. They're thinking about the stuff that's happening, you know.

[Brian McDonald]

Right. They're also often. I think you're right about that. What? When I'm teaching people, I find that this is a very difficult way for them to think. To think of the whole thing. And often when I don't like something, somebody will say, yeah, but then you like this part and this part and this part. It's like, oh, I don't think of it that way. It's a whole thing. So I don't like a part of it. Because if it doesn't fit into the rest of it, it doesn't really matter. I can't tell if it's working or not if it isn't supporting the main idea.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I feel exactly the same. First of all, just want to say I'm really excited that your book is getting a second edition.

[Brian McDonald]

Thanks. Thanks.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Where did that come from? And maybe you could just introduce people to the book that have never heard of Invisible, Inc.

[Brian McDonald]

So. Yeah, sure. So Invisible Ink. There are several reasons I wrote Invisible Ink, but this was one of them. Well, one of them was I got rejected by. By Disney for their fellowship program. And they sent me a list, a list of books that I should read on screenwriting. And I got really angry because I thought, have you read these books? Because I could write one of these books. And I did. Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That's amazing.

[Brian McDonald]

So that was one of. But that was one reason. But the other reason was the first class I taught, I was not interested in teaching, was not a goal Not a thing. But it's. It's kind of a family business, you know, and. Yeah, in a way, yeah. My brother was a teacher, and my sister's kind of a teacher, and my aunt's a teacher. And my aunt would say, when are you going to teach? And I would think, why would I do that? So. Right. I was pursuing, you know, directing and screenwriting. I was not thinking about being a teacher, but somebody needed a teacher to teach screenwriting, and I needed a job. So I took the job. And then it turns out I was good at teaching, which I didn't. That's not something I knew. And then, so one of my students, very first class, she said to me, you should write a book. And I was like, yeah, yeah. People tell me that, you know, And I was kind of blowing it off, and she looked me dead in the eye and she said, no, you're good at this. You have a responsibility to write a book. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Andy J. Pizza]

You should listen when people say stuff like that.

[Brian McDonald]

Yeah, yeah. And so, you know. So that was another reason I wrote the book. But what it is, is I've noticed that most people, when they talk about stories or. It doesn't have to be for movies. That's my training. But you can use it for anything. And I've had playwrights use it and other people. But it's that most people are thinking about details and they're thinking about the stuff on the surface. But there's a lot of stuff about writing stories that happens underneath. And the stuff that's not very visible, the stuff that's visible is really just the skin. I call it the costume that the story wears. It's just the skin. And there's a whole bunch of underlying architecture that makes it work. You know, people think what happens is important and matters, and it doesn't really matter what happens. It matters how that impacts the characters in the audience. So one example I like to use. I don't use it in the book, I don't think, but I've taught about it. I've taught it a lot. So I was overhearing some people, they were discussing something that happened in some movie they had seen, and they thought. They kept saying it would have been better if X had happened or if Y had happened. And they kept thinking about the surface of it. It doesn't matter what happened. Doesn't matter. So I said, let's take the gesture, an innocuous gesture of someone handing someone else an apple. That means nothing.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

Unless it's Snow White.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, right.

[Brian McDonald]

Oh, Wait, now it means everything, Right? Or unless it's Eve. Right, Right. Or unless it's I. There was a story, a woman who was in a concentration camp in World War II. And she said that, you know, they separated the men from the women. And there was this. She was very young at the time and there was this boy she had a crush on. And he was on the. On the other side. She says I would see him every now and then when they would take us outside and I could see him through a fence, you know, and that's. That was how they saw each other, just through this fence. And she said one day he passed an apple to me. And she goes, I don't know when the last time I had seen an apple. So that would have meant he would have had to sacrifice his own food. Whatever he had to do to get that apple. He gave her an apple. Now the action hasn't changed. It's someone handing someone an apple. But what's underneath all of it?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, that's the stuff people meaning and the characters and. Yeah. What, what is, what's the point?

[Brian McDonald]

Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I think I ran into this quote that I've just obsessed over because it's the way that I think about art and I think I mentioned to. Mentioned it to you last time. It's the Percival wild quote. I think it gets to the heart of what your book is about, which is there's no art which does not conceal a still greater art. And this is kind of the greater art underneath. Story is kind of what you're getting at.

[Brian McDonald]

Yeah. So it's the difference. People talk about story structure a lot, but I think most people talk about it without understanding it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

And it works like this. So people think a story has a structure. Right. And they talk about it like that. And they talk about people messing with structure and all of that. Oh, it's out of order or it's backwards. They're messing with structure.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

But here's the thing about structure. A story doesn't have a structure.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

A story is a structure. The same way a building is a structure or a bridge is a structure. They are structures. So if you don't link the events together, they are not a story.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. Yes.

[Brian McDonald]

Right. Once you start linking them together, they have structure.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

And the. What determines that structure is the need of the thing. So. Right. So if you're building a building, well, are you building a two story single family home or are you building a 76, you know, floor skyscraper? Right. The structure is determined by what you are building Yep. Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

You can't just go, I'm gonna mess with this structure. Right. You know? Well, yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And I think, you know, maybe we'll get to this. I'd like to get to this later, this element of structure, because I've come to think of it as. There's kind of, you know, when people hear you say something like, the action is. Doesn't matter the way you think it does. I hear what you're saying as it's further down the process of a domino effect. Like I think of. You have the point that leads to the structure, like how it. What is. What's the equation that leads to that point? And then how do you illustrate that through the action? So it's kind of, you know, the action's irrelevant if you don't have these other layers.

[Brian McDonald]

Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

So I want to get to that. But before we go there, maybe we could talk about. Because I. I want to get to why the point matters, because. Okay, I. One. One little aside before we get there, because what we'll have here is there is a. I like to think about story the same way you do, because the kind of stories I like to write and my favorite stories to experience are the ones that mirror joke telling. So I love a joke with a really well crafted punchline. In my mind, a great story, like a great joke, should make you laugh. A great story should probably make you cry or at least feel something. Right. And so the kind of stuff I. My favorite stuff is that kind of stuff. So if it was comedy, it'd be like stand up versus maybe comedy acting, which is much more abstract. And so I always like to note that I do like books and movies that aren't really stories. Like, I like some, not all, but I like some. There. There are people. There are movies that are really abstract, poetic, really break the form that I really enjoy. They're just not the kind of things that I would define as a story. Does that check out? Because I want to, like, lay that out. Because some people hear this and they think, oh, you're saying abstract, weird stuff sucks and doesn't count where I feel like that's not necessarily my favorite thing or what we're talking about.

[Brian McDonald]

Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I still think it has validity.

[Brian McDonald]

Yeah, I hear that a lot too. So I'm just trying to figure out. So a story is a very specific thing.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

And what's happening now is people are trying to put a lot of things in that bucket. This is also a story. This is also a story to the point where it has no definition.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. Right.

[Brian McDonald]

And that's a problem.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes.

[Brian McDonald]

Because if I go into a corporate setting and I'm trying to help them, a company, find their story, or I'm working at an animation company and they're trying to. Whatever. If everybody in the room has a different definition for story, we are not communicating from the very beginning. And so what that means is people think, well, I'll put this abstract thing in. And I go, well, that doesn't fit what we're trying to do. Well, what do you mean? So then they think it's all about an opinion. But we're like, no, we're building a bridge across a chasm. These are the things we're going to need to build a bridge across a chasm. And they're like, well, can we do this with the bridge? No, it doesn't do this thing. It's not necessarily a good or bad idea. It's just that it's not good for this.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

And so that's, that's the problem. But there's nothing wrong with being. It's not my favorite stuff. No. Either.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Tends not to be.

[Brian McDonald]

Right. But I will say this. There is probably even in stuff that's abstract, a point.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

Right. So what's weird about that is, like, you take something like Mark Rothko, right. Who decided, hey, you know what? I will remove form. Right. So we're just looking at color and things like that. I'm going to take form away. Right. But I'm not going to be representational in a way. But there's a point there. There's a thing happening there. Right. And so if all of a sudden Mark Rothko decided, I'm going to do a still life in the middle of this thing, it doesn't fit what he's trying to do. Right, Right. So even the stuff that's abstract has its own internal rules and logic.

[Andy J. Pizza]

So even if you, you know, by the nature of what you edit or include you. Even if your point is something nihilistic, it's still a point. Even if it's a thing, that there is no point. There is no meaning.

[Brian McDonald]

That's, that's still a point.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That's your point, right? Yes.

[Brian McDonald]

You know, and anything that goes against that doesn't fit in your, so it's just, you know, so having a point. And here's the other thing about having a point that I find really fascinating. You know, I like to take, I like to think about stories as a natural, very natural thing. Right. That, that, I mean, I, I, I talk about It. All the time now. But I think human beings were designed to be storytellers, and I don't mean it in any. This is not artistic. This part of it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

This part of it. Now what you do with it could be better or worse than somebody else or whatever can be artistic. But the thing itself is, at its core is not art. It isn't art. Right. It is a way for us to. To pass on interesting or not interesting imperative information to one another. Right. That's what it is. It is an efficient way. Right. Of, like Jesse Bryant likes to say, of getting something out of my head into your head. Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

Right. And it's a way to pass on information both horizontally from me to you or vertically down the generations. Right. And it's. So we. We know stuff that people said 10,000 years ago. Right. You know. You know, because of stories. Right. We know what people were thinking about, you know, and so that's a really important thing because that informs us now it has a structure that just comes with the software we're born with. Right. And there's just a structure there. All that to say that when we're talking and we don't think we're telling stories and we're just talking to each other. We will have a point. Yeah, we will. So it's way abstract. The idea of not having a point. It actually goes against everything that we do every day. So if you're. If, you know, so even. And it works like this. I don't know every word I'm going to say before I say it to you.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

But I know the idea that I want to get across to you when I'm talking to you right now, Right?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes.

[Brian McDonald]

Right. And the only words I use are the words that help me do that.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yep. Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

I don't throw in extraneous words.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

Aluminum in the middle of the thing I'm trying to say, because it distracts.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And it kind of breaks it down.

[Brian McDonald]

Right. Yeah. But I like the word aluminum. Right. Like, who cares? It doesn't. Right. Everybody does it all the time, every day. They streamline their. And the people who don't are very difficult to listen to. Everybody knows that.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, definitely. And I, you know, I think kind of two things come to mind for me with that. One is I like the notion of getting something from my head to your head. But I also think that the way I. The way I like to think about it is the story is a way of usually getting something that's already in your head into your heart. Because A lot of these things are things that you maybe know are true on. You know, a lot of the stories that are hitting philosophical truths, they ring true, and they're almost like reminders of, oh, yeah, family matters or, oh, yeah, that, you know, you don't. You can. You can be more than you were born into or, you know what, These different things that are easy to have in your head, but putting them in a story as a way of living through them and then feeling them so that they're, you know, you can embody them.

[Brian McDonald]

Well, if you go back to the. And this is another discussion that often occurs, this idea of philosophy over feeling things. Right, right. And so here's what's interesting, especially in the dramatic form. And by dramatic form, I mean anything performed or. Right. So going back to the Greeks who invented drama as we know it, I mean, they may have gotten it from somebody else, but nobody says that, so. Okay, but often you find out. No, they. They went to Africa and they got, you know, I don't know, but they're the ones credited with.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Right. Another classic story that we. Too many times.

[Brian McDonald]

Yeah. But as you know, as it comes down to us, it starts with the Greeks, and I have no reason to doubt that, actually, but it starts with the Greeks. So. Okay, so here's what's interesting. So people are telling stories, right? And. But. And I can't remember the name of the guy, but somebody, one of the playwrights decided, hey, what if I have the actors just talk to each other? You know, like that was an invention. Right, Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

But the word drama means to do. It means action or to do. So when you are dramatizing something, you are demonstrating something.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

So instead of saying, some things are more important than money, you are demonstrating that through the story.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. Yes.

[Brian McDonald]

Now, here's what's interesting. If you think about the logo, the ancient Greek logo for drama, it was the masks of comedy and tragedy, both. Drama, by the way, because they're not using drama the way we use it now. Right. Both there were. They were comedies and tragedies. That's how they separated those things. But we use drama to mean comedy. It doesn't. We're misusing it. But anyway. But so. So there are emotions. Their masks are emotional. They're frowning, crying and laughing. There's nothing about thinking there.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

The Greeks are famous for their philosophy. Right. It wasn't like they didn't have it. Right. So they could have had another mask of somebody thinking, that's not there. Why isn't that there? It's not there because they very specifically thought that there was something that was good for your health about weeping with the people in the story. They. It was an emotional. It's designed to be an emotional form.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. Yes. It's like, you know, it's a. It's a form in which here's something we know or here's something that the authority, the creator, the artist feels this is true. And here's the way that I'm going to illustrate it through action so that you can feel it, so that you can test it. And I think we have, I think I've heard you talk about this before. Like we have the, that, that resonance that we're shooting for that breaks down when the pieces don't work. That comes from when. I think you see this a lot in like propaganda where the thing they're the truth, the so called truth they're trying to illustrate won't play out in the story because the story is the grounds in which we test that information. When you're experiencing it, if it doesn't add up, you're not going to come. You're not going to be left with the feelings that were intended. Right, Right.

[Brian McDonald]

Yeah. Right. And the other thing is that feeling is another way to understand the thing. Right. That's also a way to understand. So why is the Diary of Anne Frank an important book? Right. Because of the feeling.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. We could have all the facts all day we had, all right. Without the doing in the drama and the story and the characters in the setting. It doesn't illustrate, it doesn't illuminate on a feeling level.

[Brian McDonald]

Right. It's not human. Statistics aren't human.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes, exactly.

[Brian McDonald]

Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It gets to that point of. I love when you talk about the idea of how this links to survival information. Could you talk a little bit about that?

[Brian McDonald]

Yeah. What I think stories are for is I generally believe that stories exist for human beings to pass on survival information or survival strategies onto each other. And there's lots of evidence that, that I think proves this.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

First of all, every writing teacher in the world will tell you that in order for your story to be compelling or interesting that it needs to have conflict. Right now, as a dyslexic, that's not enough information for me. So I remember asking, well, why is that more interesting? Well, just because it is. Well, that's not an answer. That's, you know, that's not an answer. That means you don't know. Right. That's what that means. Right. I don't know. People find it more interesting well, why. Why would be we be wired to find it more interesting? Because conflict is the thing that we are trying to survive. That's why it's interesting.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And it gets. Because I do the exact same thing. And when I was talking about earlier of how you. I relate to your big picture kind of approach or theater, like, seeing theory, I think it comes from a place of needing to feel it. And so when you say, when you're. When a teacher says it has to have conflict, I have that same response of, okay, why? And it's because I'm not feeling it. I'm not feeling. I don't know what that. What conflict's not doing. Like, why do we need conflict? I don't even like conflict. Why would we need that?

[Brian McDonald]

Right?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Then you start pulling it out and you get to, oh, this is because the stakes and people's lives. And if you don't, if this happens, these people suffer. And all of a sudden, now I'm feeling it and I'm like, oh, I get why we need the conflict.

[Brian McDonald]

Yeah, it's an important component. One of the things that most people do when they're writing is try to avoid conflict because that's what they do in their lives. So it's really interesting.

[Andy J. Pizza]

So they'll be like, I don't want.

[Brian McDonald]

To do this to my character. Or that seems cruel or whatever. It's like, no, this is the place for that. You're not being cruel to your character. They're not real. It's fine. Everybody's going to be okay. So, yeah. But yeah, it is funny. It's one of the biggest things. It's avoiding that stuff. People avoid emotions often in stories. It becomes a vulnerable position. And people don't want to take that vulnerable position. Like, oh, if I reveal. Because you often have to reveal something emotionally about yourself in order to get that into the story. And a lot of people want to avoid that, and so that makes their stories not work as well.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Hey, in case you don't know, we have a monthly live virtual meetup every last Monday of the month with supporters of the show from Patreon and Substack. We have so much fun on these calls, and they are the warmest, most encouraging creatives that I have ever met. And we also talk real creative practice stuff. We have authors, illustrators, lettering artists, picture bookmakers, fine artists, musicians, and folks that work in video and film as well. And we have people that are just starting out, people super established in their creative careers and everything in between. For the rest of this year, we're going to chat through our new Journey of the True Fan series, exploring questions and ways to apply these ideas to your own creative practice so that you can leave 2024 stronger than you came in with more visibility, connection with your audience, and sales. Sign up to whichever suits you best@ either patreon.com or andy jpizza.substack.com and I hope to see you at this month's meetup. It's holiday shopping time, y'all. It's time to freak out. Not because Uncommon Goods is here to make it easy. Listen, all I did was click the for her section on this site and I instantly saw five things that I could get Sophie. Don't tell her, but I'm thinking either the national park sweaters, the tea Advent calendar. There's also just below that little bubble tea kit for my oldest. And then I saw one of these, you know, the retro little viewfinder orange real viewer things. But you can make it your own photos. Okay, it might not make sense. Just you have to go check it out yourself. Here's the thing. I have seriously never seen so many good options for gifts online in one place. And unlike lots of other convenient options, shopping Uncommon Goods actually supports small businesses. To get 15 off your next gift, go to UncommonGoods.com Pep Talk that's UncommonGoods.com Pep Talk for 15 off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer. Uncommon Goods we're all out of the ordinary. Earlier you were talking about, I want to see if I understood something right. We were talking about the element of this that isn't art. Here's how I kind of was thinking about that. Could you explain the idea of armature real quick before I go into that?

[Brian McDonald]

Sure. So armature is the word I use to describe. So here's the thing. When I was 21 years old, I worked in creature shops. I did that for a couple of years. This was in the 1980s and I worked in creature shops. And that was before CGI or anything. And so everything had to be built.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Is this similar to kind of like what Henson things are?

[Brian McDonald]

Kind of? Yeah, kind of.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Okay.

[Brian McDonald]

I did work with a guy who did work with them or he was offered a job with them, but he didn't take it. But it's similar. Yeah. So yeah, make up special effects kind of stuff. But you would make build a creature, you know. So Night of the Creeps was the first movie I worked on. Some people know that. Some people. Most people don't. I've never watched It Night of the Creeps, Return of the Living Dead Part 2, which I have also never watched, but I did some zombies stuff on that, helped out on that anyway. But I was kind of the low person. I was new, and I was kind of. So I would watch these people, these amazing sculptors. Some of them went on to work on Jurassic park later and stuff like that. Amazing people. And they would do these little maquettes, these little mini sculptures of whatever the creature was, whatever the monster or whatever, so the producers could look at it. I remember when I got there, they were working on Predator when I first moved there. And so there are all these sculptures of Predator, what he could look like, and, you know, and. And beautiful, beautiful sculptures. And I noticed they would make these sort of wire skeletons before they sculpted these things in clay. And. And I asked why, and they said, oh, because clay can't support its own weight. So we make an armature. This skeleton, this. It's called armature wire, actually. We make this armature, and it holds everything up. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And then after a while, I started thinking about stories in terms of having an armature have a thing at the center that everything is built around that is invisible. Once you're done, nobody sees it. It's one of the most important parts of the sculpture. The whole thing falls apart without it, but it's not a thing people notice. And so the armature is the point you're trying to make. Right. It doesn't have to be obvious. It doesn't have to be there on the surface for everybody to see, but it has to be there in every decision that you make about the characters that inhabit that story, the places where they are, the creatures, if they're there, whatever is there. It all has to go back to this central idea, to the armature. It has to be built around the armature. It doesn't work.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

So the other word for armature would be theme. Right. But I don't like to use the word theme because just like the word story, people have different ideas for that. So I like to describe it first as armature and explain it, and then we can use the words interchangeably because we know what we're talking about. But what I find is that when people hear this, sometimes they misunderstand it. So they'll say, well, the theme of my piece or the armature is revenge or greed. Or they'll have a word. It's like, okay, that's not something you can demonstrate through. I mean, you can show greed, but you're not saying anything about greed. Right. So. So. Or revenge. Right. So a thing can't be revenge. An armature is not revenge. An armature is revenge harms the avenger. Revenge is sweet. That's something you. Those are things you can demonstrate through the story. Dramatize. Demonstrate. Right, Right. Some things are more important than gold or more valuable than gold. That's something you can demonstrate through the characters and the actions and the settings and everything else. So it has to be a sentence that you can prove or disprove.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. And I think of it, you know, I've thought. I think I read your. I think the original version of Invisible Ink probably maybe five years ago, some. Something like that. So I've kind of been working on that and kind of adding my own thoughts in terms of how I. How I want to approach stuff. And I kind of tend to think of that armature. The point that you're trying to make, the. I've heard you talk about story math. I think about it like Act 1, Act 2, Act 3. Has to. The. Act 3 has to add up to the point. Like, that's. The point is that it's an equation the story adds up to. This is the thing that becomes evident from the process. Maybe you could give one of the ones. I've heard you do it for a bunch of different examples, but one of my favorites is your take on the armature of Jurassic Park. Does that fresh in your mind?

[Brian McDonald]

Let me think about it for a second.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

What did I say?

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's something about. It's something about leaving the past in the past and kind of something about how, like, it's what happens when you try to resurrect the past.

[Brian McDonald]

Oh, that's a whole thing that's in the Land of the Dead. Yeah, That's a whole different. That's a whole different thing.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Okay.

[Brian McDonald]

We talk about Land of the Dead, but that's the last book we can talk about it, but it will take us down a path.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I think we better do that on a different discussion. That's. That's why I. I heard you. I think you were talking about Jurassic park as an example.

[Brian McDonald]

Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

What happens when you try to resurrect the dead? And, yeah, it was probably in the context of Land of the Dead, which I highly recommend people checking out. I think there's. I think it's a great framework for thinking about all this stuff, but I've. That's my.

[Brian McDonald]

My personal favorite book of mine.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Oh, really? Yeah, It's. It's amazing. And I think. I think it's a really interesting concept in terms of how to think about. The way I think about that book is it reminds me of the Hero's Journey in that it's like you're going into a world that you can't stay. There has to be a return home. Maybe you could explain what that is, but briefly, because otherwise we're going to completely derail this.

[Brian McDonald]

That's a whole different thing. Essentially, I had noticed a pattern of characters journeying into the underworld in stories.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

And it happened a lot. So I was like, why does this happen so much? So I. You know, I did a deep dive into why it happens. And actually, it's funny because a lot of people compare the book to Joseph Campbell.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

Which is funny. It's great. It's fine.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

But there's actually a guy that predates him.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Oh, yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

Named Otto Rank that wrote a book called the Myth of the Birth of the Hero. And that's actually more. For me. So it's like. Oh, yeah, okay. People know Joseph Campbell, so that's what they think. There were people doing it before Joseph Campbell, and Otto Rank is one of those people. And he talks about every hero. Like, he goes through every hero, mythological hero, religious heroes, and he talks about how their births are very similar in all the stories. It's really interesting. So it. So I was. Yeah, so I was looking at. I was looking at. Yeah. Why. Why characters go into the underworld? Well, the time. And what I notice is they usually go there and they gain some kind of wisdom there, and they come back. And that is more universal than we know. And the things that you find in the Land of the Dead in any of those stories are things you can find in life. And when you're in those situations, you are in the Land of the Dead in those situations.

[Andy J. Pizza]

You mean when it's life or death? Right?

[Brian McDonald]

No, not necessarily life.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Okay. Yeah. So what are the examples of that?

[Brian McDonald]

An example might be. An example might be going through a horrible time in your life where nothing's working out. Right. Because one of the things you find in the Land of the Dead are suffering souls.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

So. So if you. If you're around something, a hospital could be Land of the Dead. A nursing home could be a Land of the Dead. Prisons are a Land of the Dead. Shawshank Redemption takes place in the Land of the Dead. Right, Right. So any place there's suffering of any kind, the threat of death sure, that's. That's there, but. But there's always wisdom to be gained there. If you stay there, you are also. You're dead. So you have to gain the wisdom and then leave. Right. And so, in fact, what I, what I found, and I didn't know this before, there's a word for this journey into the dead, which is called the catabasis. I didn't know there was a word for it, but it happens enough that there was a word for it. Right. So there's an actual word, the cataposis. And so we all kind of go through a catabolist at maybe several points in our life, and you're supposed to learn the lesson of it, otherwise you get stuck in that.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Stay there.

[Brian McDonald]

Yeah, right. So anyway, that's. That's kind of what the Land of the Dead is about. And I talk about it in mythology, and I talk about it in modern movies, and I talk about it in life. That's what that book is.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. I love that. If you get stuck in that place, like, life cannot continue figuratively, literally, metaphorically, I love that. Back to a thread I was going to close was when you were talking about. Here's how I heard what you said, because this is. I was right there with you. In terms of the part of the story, the part of making stories that isn't art, I often think about art. I call it the cup and the coffee. So the coffee is like the substance. It's the espresso, it's the. It's what people are there for. But the cup you put it in needs to match the flavor. Or if you think about it like wine in a wine glass. Right. Like, now there are. There's really interesting things you can do. Like, there are. Lots of us have been in those scenarios where we're drinking wine out of a red solo cup. That's a different. You're doing that for a different reason. And that can either be really sad or it could be really fun. Like. But there's a lot of pieces of how that comes together. So I think about the packaging in the essence of something. And so I was thinking about this in terms of story for me, as you said that, I started thinking, like, Yeah, I think when I approach a story, I'm thinking of it. There's kind of two pieces, there's three pieces to it. When you're thinking about the armature, which is the skeleton, the meat, and then I think of, like, the skin. And so, yeah, the, the, the. Maybe for me, the art is the Idea, the truth. That, like, it's almost like a vision, like a thing where, like, I want to communicate this. That the catching of that is an art. It feels like, to me. And then I think the styling. So, like, the skin also feels like an art. Now, I think it should serve the point, but I think it still is an artist. And then the in between, like, the meat of that, that feels more like mechanics. That's more like this leads to. That leads to that. Is that kind of.

[Brian McDonald]

I talk about it in the book, but. Yeah, in the new version. But I. I think of it as bones. Muscle, skin. Yes, Right. And so the bones. And what's interesting about this for me is when I started thinking about it this way. It helps with collaboration to think of it this way. Because here's the thing with collaboration. When you're working on a project with someone and they say, maybe. So, for instance, you're working out the bones, and you say, okay, the guy's got to find out that his business partner is embezzling. Right? Okay, that's all you need right now. But there's often someone who's getting into muscle, and they'll say, well, how do they find that out? Now you slowed down the whole process.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes.

[Brian McDonald]

Right. Now we gotta stop and figure that out. But we're still building bones. Let's just build bones. He finds it out. We'll figure that out later. We just need that. Right? Those are bones. Right. In this case, I would think of the armature. It changes slightly when you're thinking about bone, muscle, skin. And the armature is really the soul at that point.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Oh, yeah, right, right. I hadn't thought of that.

[Brian McDonald]

Yeah, right. It's the heart, right? Yes, yes.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. It's the spirit, the consciousness, the core.

[Brian McDonald]

Right. At that point.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That's great.

[Brian McDonald]

And then. So then the bones are. You know, this has to happen. This has to happen. These kinds of things. The muscle is all the thing, all that working out, like, how does he find out? And blah, blah, blah. And then what does he do? Exactly. And how does that guy get a hold of a gun? Even though whatever it is, right? You know, you gotta figure all that stuff out. And that's muscle and skin is. Maybe we could shoot it in black and white because of blah, blah, blah. Or, you know, maybe this should have a more cartoony style because of X, Y. It still needs to serve your point. But making that choice about the skin. Or maybe this is a western and maybe this is a samurai thing, because none of that other stuff changes. Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes. And you can also do interesting things, too. Where. One of my favorite ways this plays out in a way that is surprising, is when you can't. And this is where there's an art to it to me, where you can then do what I call a mismatch for a purpose. So I think about things like the Cure being. When you first hear the Cure, the band, it sounds upbeat and like dance music.

[Brian McDonald]

Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And then you. And it. But then when you notice the disconnect between how depressing what they're talking about is, it makes you lean in and it gives you. It. It. It hooks you. Right. And so there are interesting things, too, of. And this. It kind of reminds me of Shaloman's thing where he talks about how he worked out that he could put different skin on it, but it had to be less interesting than the soul that you're saying, like, the twist had to be an elevation of the plot. Like, he noticed. Like, he kept. Have you talked about this before? I can't remember if I've heard you kind of.

[Brian McDonald]

I have written about Shyamalan before. Yeah.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I heard him say this, and I thought he's. He. He was like. He made. He was making these movies, and he felt like he got into a rut because he didn't realize that if he sold it as an action movie, and then it ended up being a drama that felt like the stakes lowered. And so he realized he had to flip it the other way, where the soul had to kind of outdo the skin. And that's kind of. You know, it's abstract, but I think that's where the artistry comes in. Like, that's where you get creative about how are we going to. Like, what is the best way to bring this soul to life for people, you know? Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

It's funny, I. I think very little about the skin.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

Actually.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

Because a guy I know is learning how to sculpt.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

And. And I told him, okay, you gotta start. You gotta. You know, the bones, muscle, skin thing. And he. And as he did his research and learned more, he found out that's what you have to do. And here's what's interesting. If you're sculpting in clay, if you sculpt the muscles and you lay the skin on, it will do all the things it's supposed to do.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

And the muscles make it work. So it's like, even though people see the surface and they think it's all happening on the surface, it's the muscles that make it do what it's doing. And so I always think that the skin kind of takes care of itself.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, well, I. Yeah. And I. And I'm just, you know, that's. I love. I love we're adding all these layers because now we got the soul all the way up to the skin. And then as you're saying that, then I'm thinking about. I want to go back to you thinking primarily about the soul of it, because I think there's some other. In collaboration, because I think there's something else interesting there, too. But then the next piece that comes to mind is the clothes and how you dress it. And then I feel like we're getting into this territory of the timeless soul of a thing versus the timely, like, attention grabbing. Like, I'm really fast. Like, I'm like you, too, in that. What. Where I get interested in is the soul. That's where my. That's what I'm all about. But I'm interested in the fact that what people. What grabs people's attention is often the clothes. And so it's an interesting dynamic.

[Brian McDonald]

Yes. Having said that.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

I. First of all, okay, Sid Caesar was a comedian. Sid Caesar was a comedian who had a TV show in the 50s that is really the grandfather of Saturday Night Live, essentially.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

And Sid Caesar was very. It was a. It was a. It was a major show. The writers on that show are legendary. They. They ended up being some of the best. Mel Brooks was on that writing staff. But. But everybody who was on that writing staff is at that level of. As long as they were alive, they were relevant. Mel Brooks is still relevant right now. Right. He's, like almost 100 years old. Like, this was a major show. And Sid Caesar said something really interesting in an interview. He said. He said, you know, you can walk on stage and have a funny costume and you'll get a lot of laughs. And he said, but after that, you better have something funny to say because that costume ain't getting no more laughs. Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. Yeah. And into the point of Shyamalan again, it better be what you have to say. Better be funnier than the costume, right? Like, you better ramp it up from there. Or if you can't outperform it, you're in trouble.

[Brian McDonald]

Right? So. So that's the thing, right? So that's the problem with the skin and concentrating on the skin, it's like, yeah, that'll work for a little while, but it won't really sustain you. And what's interesting is if you take all that away, if you take a Classic. Like it's. Like It's Wonderful Life or the wizard of Oz. Oz.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

Style has moved on from those things. It has not diminished anyone's enjoyment of those things.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes.

[Brian McDonald]

Right. So you take the wizard of Oz. Acting styles have changed. Right. The way people shoot things has changed. Right. You. You needed a lot of light back then. Right. So everything is bright and overlit. Right. It was a bigger deal to shoot outside. So all the exteriors are interiors. Right. And that gives things a kind of false quality. There's all these things. Right. The special effects, which were groundbreaking at the time and some of them are still amazing. But compared to what we can do now. Yeah, right. But it doesn't stop anybody from believing anything that happens in that story.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Definitely.

[Brian McDonald]

Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And I completely agree with you. Yeah, go ahead.

[Brian McDonald]

Sorry, I was just going to say that. So what happens is the skin ends up being superficial.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And I completely agree. I'll say two things that I'm just adding here because, you know, I'm primarily talking to. I know a lot of times you're probably talking to creative people, but sometimes I imagine, you know, we're talking to a business or you're talking to people that manage creative people or, you know, executives or whatever. Like, I think the message they need to hear for sure is the soul is what matters. Like, this is what matters. And I think, to me, I'm just thinking about primarily creative people who maybe already subscribe to the idea that the essence, the espresso, that's what matters. And I'm just saying 100%.

[Brian McDonald]

Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

But remember that the close is often what sells it to the regular public and to executives. And it doesn't really matter, but. Or at least the degree at which it matters is that it doesn't. That it's additive to the. To the soul, not subtractive, you know, because I think about Pixar and I'm like, I do think all the. So many. I mean, I know that Pixar is celebrated for story, but I think what a lot of people, what brought them to the forefront was, oh, it's this technology. We've never seen it. And a lot of the wrong lessons get learned from that. And that happens over and over and over. That's true. So I'm totally right there with you. But I'm kind of talking to creative people of like, yeah, it. I agree. Like, it's not really what matters, but just realize that it's the same thing as, like a book cover. It's like, it's not really the key but it does make a difference on whether people. How people think about it. Right.

[Brian McDonald]

Well, it has a job to do.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It has a job. I love that. Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

And so.

[Andy J. Pizza]

My.

[Brian McDonald]

Actually, my. One of my editors at first, second, I did Land of the Dead, basically said that about covers. He didn't push back on any of the art things. He goes, but the COVID does have a job to do. Right, Right. And I will push back on the COVID because that has to sell the book. Right?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

And I like the COVID of the book, but it doesn't.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

But here's what I've seen. Here's what I've noticed over and over again. And this is the stuff I am most proud of when I get out of the way. So when I get out of the way, what's interesting is. I'll give you. I'll give you an example.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

One of my favorite things in any story is in Peter Pan, and it's the crocodile.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

And the crocodile. Right. And here's why. The crocodile, you know, has swallowed a clock. Right. And. And so Captain Hook can hear. He's scared of this crocodile. He hear it coming. Okay, here's what's interesting about that. Barry, who wrote Peter Pan, had a brother who died when he was a kid. And they referred to him as the boy who didn't grow up. Never. Neverland is. Is a land of the dead. You can't stay there. Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

The boys who stay there are lost.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

You can't stay in childhood forever. Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

Yeah. It's fun while you're there, but you can't live there. Right. So there's that.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes.

[Brian McDonald]

Okay. So that's what that piece is all about. Right? Now, growing up also includes golden growing old, and it includes dying. Captain Hook is also running from death, right?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

The crocodile is death, and it is pursuing him. And it even has a piece of him already.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

Right. Which is why he has a hook.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

Right. So death takes us a little bit at a time. Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Love it.

[Brian McDonald]

So this ticking clock with teeth is chasing hook.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

Right. Now, that looks like creativity, but it is only going to your armature to figure out what to create.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes.

[Brian McDonald]

You can be way more creative if you listen to your armature than you ever could be trying to come up with a crocodile with a clock in its stomach just chasing a guy. You can't come up with that idea unless you are adhering to your armature. And that also happens on the skin level. What does it say it should look like? Because it Will be innovative, it will be interesting, it will do all those things. But if you listen to it, once you have your armature, you become a servant of that armature. And every decision you make is based on an armature. You will be more creative than you could otherwise be.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, I freaking love that. I love that example. It's so powerful. And it speaks to. I think, you know, again, the getting out of the way thing, to me, it's almost like I've given a lot of thought to how the meat and the skin, it emanates from the soul in a way that's like, similar to dreams. And that you have this. This prelingual self, like the unconscious self. The older part of us that before we learned to talk in terms of humanity, that communicates in pictures, and so it communicates in symbols. And so once you have that piece of. This is the thing I want to communicate. That's where you build on the creativity comes from. Or it speaks for you in that it starts to give you leads on the kind of symbols that will personify the point.

[Brian McDonald]

Right, Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And that example is just so powerful. And I also think, you know, I want to. We always end with, like, an action that people can take with these ideas, things they can put to their practice. We call it the Call to Adventure cta. And so I want to get to that. But I think the way I want to frame it is as an illustrator, early on, when you think about illustration, most illustrators I know, myself included, you start and you fall in love because of people's style. And you want to find your style. Right, Right. And the thing that I have tried to. I did a class all about finding your style. And the truth is, it's really about finding your substance, because it emanates from there, you know? And so I wondered if. So for artists, illustrators, authors, whatever, finding that substance, that soul to build a story around or to build, to get, to take cues from your style, that really is the heart of the thing. I wondered if you had any, with your teaching and workshops, if you had any hacks for. How do I notice these things, these souls that I can build stuff from?

[Brian McDonald]

What it comes down to. That's a question people have a lot. They're like, how do I find an armature? And usually. Usually they look outside for an armature.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Which is a mistake, I think.

[Brian McDonald]

Yeah, it is a huge mistake. You have to look inside for the armature, and there is something that they know, there is something that you believe and there is something you have learned from some hardship. There just is. You don't get through life without it. You can be in the. It doesn't matter how old you are. None of that stuff matters. There's something you have survived or you wouldn't be here. Right. So there's something you survived, and there's something that you know to be true from your experience. You. So you just have to look at yourself. What are the things that hold you back? What are the things that have moved you ahead? All those things are you. And you know, those things, you know, you might not want to think about them, but in order to be a good storyteller, that is what you have to think about. You know, you have to be. You have to be willing to be vulnerable, and that means even to yourself and to look at the parts of yourself that you don't necessarily want to look at. Vulnerability scares people because they. They think people will attack them for their vulnerabilities. Yeah. The way I was explaining it to somebody, as I said, they. They said, well, how, you know, how do I trust people with that? And, you know, that's. I said, well, if you look at a dog, when a dog rolls over and wants you to rub their belly, in the natural world of wolves, that is a submissive action because all the things that could kill you are vulnerable. So if another wolf wants to take advantage, they can. You're saying, I trust you. I submit you win. But if you think about it, in a dog, it's a very likable position. Oh, they want to. Right, right, right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Brian McDonald]

Right. And it's exactly what happens when you are vulnerable.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It invites connection.

[Brian McDonald]

Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yes.

[Brian McDonald]

It says, I'm trusting you with this.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And that. That's exactly what brings people in. That's the kind of stuff that people lean into when they can sense that this is a vulnerable thing.

[Brian McDonald]

Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I think it's. I think it's definitely true. And I love that. As a prompt to think about what are the. What are the vulnerable areas that you could reveal?

[Brian McDonald]

Right.

[Andy J. Pizza]

As an act of trust with your audience.

[Brian McDonald]

Yes. Yeah. And what's interesting is everybody's afraid that people will look at your work and see you, but that's not what happens. They look at their work, your work, when you are vulnerable, and they say to themselves, how did they know that about me? That's what happens.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That's. That's amazing. That's amazing. Well, I. I could talk to you for hours and hours. I got plenty more. I've got more theories and stuff. That I want to throw at you eventually. And I might make my own kind of class or book or something sometime, but I owe a ton to you because I feel like this piece, the pieces that you outline in the book are just foundational. And I think anybody creating anything needs that kind of substance to build from. And so I really hope people check out the new version of the book. Where can they find it?

[Brian McDonald]

Whenever fine books are sold, yeah, you should be able to find it anywhere. And if it's not a bookstore that you like to go to, they can order it. So some people are anti Amazon, but you can get it there or not. You know what I mean? But yeah, you can find it anywhere.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And where do you. Where can people find you? Where do you want to send them?

[Brian McDonald]

Oh, they could go to my website, right? Invisible Inc. They can follow me on Instagram. I'm bmickit D. So it's B, E, E, M A, C, D, E, E. So on Instagram. And yeah, those are places where you can find me.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Awesome. Thanks, man.

[Brian McDonald]

Oh, thanks for having me. It was really fun.

[Andy J. Pizza]

All right, check out the book Invisible Inc. The new edition of the book Invisible Inc. Wherever you get your books, maybe an indie bookstore if you can. You know, we love to support indie bookstores. Go check it out. Invisible Inc. By Brian McDonald. A just a fantastic book about story that has just given me so much over the years and really inspired a lot of this podcast. I love Brian's work. I love the way he thinks. He's got a few books out on story and. And yeah, go check him out and follow along so that you can stay tuned into all of the great insight that he has. Brian, thank you so much for coming on the show. And I hope you get to come back again someday. Each episode of Creative Pep Talk is designed to help you maintain a consistent creative practice. If you're trying to transcribe, transform your creativity from an infrequent hobby to a regular discipline, sign up to our [e-mail] so that you never miss an episode. Creative Pep Talk is part of the Podglomerate Network. To learn more, go to www.podglomerate.com. massive thanks to Yoni Wolf and the band Y for our theme music, thanks to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for editing and sound design, thanks to Sophie Miller for podcast assistance of all sorts. And most importantly, thanks to you for listening. And until we speak again, stay pepped up. Hey, y'all, one more quick thing. Earlier this year, I rebuilt my website using Squarespace's new Fluid Engine and I was so pumped about how it turned out that I have been really thrilled to find as many ways to partner with them and tell you about what they can do and bring you discounts as possible. With social media going haywire, I think having a site that feels as unique as your creative work is essential to building trust with your target audience or your clients. I have had several clients point out how cohesive and fresh my site looks lately and if you want to check that out and what I was able to do without any code, check out andyjpizza.com if you want to test it out, go to squarespace.com Pep Talk to test it out yourself and when you're ready to launch, use promo code pep talk for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks Squarespace for supporting the show and for supporting creative people. I'm Whit Miseldine, the creator of this Is Actually Happening, a podcast from Wondery that brings you extraordinary true stories of life changing events told by the people who lived them. From a young man that dooms his.

[Brian McDonald]

Entire future family with one choice to.

[Andy J. Pizza]

A woman that barely survived her roommate, we dive into what happened and hear their intimate first person account of how they overcame remarkable circumstances. Follow this Is Actually Happening on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Brian McDonald]

Or listen ad free by joining Wondry.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Plus in the Wondry app.