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- [00:03]
Sophie Yanow
On the creative journey, it's easy to get lost. But don't worry, you'll lift off. Sometimes you just need a creative pep talk.
- [00:21]
Andy J. Pizza
Hey, do you struggle to finish creative projects? Because I do. And that's why I'm excited that today on the show we have Eisner Award winning graphic novelist Sophie. You know, and I don't know if you know this, but making a graphic novel is a huge fricking task. It is just Herculean and I don't even know how to do it. I'd like to learn how to do it. And so I thought, let's have Sophie, you know, on the podcast. She's done it a few times. She knows a thing or two about this. I loved her book the Contradictions. It is just a really great, masterful storytelling of a thing. And she's written a little bit about how she's become someone who can stack creative actions long enough and in one direction consistently enough to make a graphic novel. And I've been really inspired by that. So I was pumped to have her on the show and talk about it. Felt right to have her on the week after episode 500 where we started exploring some of these ideas. Stick until the end of this episode and I'm going to come back and share with you a practice that comes from Sophie. She coined it and started this thing. It's called a Gentle Comic habit and it's really inspiring and cool if you've ever wanted to make consistently, especially if you wanted to make comics consistently, which I highly recommend, no matter who you are. I'll be back at the end to share the pieces of that. But for now, let's get into this juicy chat that I had about creative habits with comic artist Sophie. You know, this episode is sponsored by Squarespace. I love Squarespace. I'm a longtime user. One of the things I love about Squarespace is I will use. It's so easy to use that I will use it to create pitches. If I'm pitching a book or I'm pitching something to a client, I will use a Squarespace page in my website and I'll build the whole thing there. Then you don't have these clunky like document PDFs clogging up people's inboxes and it looks super slick. If you want to see one of those that I use all the time. I did one for my series right side out andyjpizza.com RSO and you can see how I create a little pitch summary of that project. Go to squarespace.com pep talk get building for free and trying it out and testing it. And then when you're ready to launch, use promo code pep talk all one word for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks. Squarespace. Switch to Verizon Business and get more from your Internet without paying more for your Internet. Get LTE business Internet starting at $39 a month when paired with select Business mobile plans.
- [03:41]
Sophie Yanow
That's unlimited data and with it unlimited possibilities.
- [03:45]
Andy J. Pizza
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- [03:51]
Sophie Yanow
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- [03:57]
Andy J. Pizza
Power 2024 award information.
- [03:58]
Sophie Yanow
Visit J.D.
- [03:59]
Andy J. Pizza
Power.Com awards I read your graphic novel the Contradictions.
- [04:06]
Sophie Yanow
Thank you.
- [04:07]
Andy J. Pizza
Loved it. Absolutely loved it. Great, great work. I, you know, what I loved was that I'm, I'm. And maybe it's because I'm more in like kids media. I'm very, I'm a little bit more heavy handed on like telling them versus showing them. And you did such a good job of just showing the character arc and.
- [04:32]
Sophie Yanow
Thank you.
- [04:33]
Andy J. Pizza
Like, it was subtle but very clear what like what this is about.
- [04:37]
Sophie Yanow
That was, I mean that was kind of the, the like formalist goal of that project, I guess. Like.
- [04:45]
Andy J. Pizza
Oh really?
- [04:46]
Sophie Yanow
Well, a lot of my previous work is very. So that's like, it's like auto fiction. But my previous work is really strictly memoir and nonfiction and has a lot of my narrative voice in it. Lot of sort of. Yeah. Me writing my inner thoughts or, or narrating. And for this project, for that project I was kind of like, but what if I didn't, what if I didn't so much. Can I do that? Can I pull that off?
- [05:17]
Andy J. Pizza
So yeah, there's not a lot of like editorial. There's almost none. Like, there's no, it's not like your thoughts. It's really just like this is what happens. I, as soon as I was done with it, that was the first thought I had, was whoa. I, like got it. I totally got it. But you didn't tell me what it was. Yes. And that's, that was strong. That was awesome. And you did it in this like, you know, a short period of time of things, you know, in the book. I'm sure it happened over a long period of time or it was different in real life. I know it's not a memoir. I know it's not like exactly what happened. But yeah, I loved it. It was really cool thank you. So, yeah. And I know since then, since you put that. So you handed that in in 2020.
- [06:01]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah, I handed it in like a few weeks before the pandemic. Yeah. So I was like, freedom. Nope, none of that.
- [06:11]
Andy J. Pizza
Get locked up.
- [06:12]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah. You're like, yeah, freedom to live in my head.
- [06:19]
Andy J. Pizza
And then. So then after you handed it in, you're. Because you, you kind of had like, you were pretty prolific up into that moment and then.
- [06:27]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah.
- [06:27]
Andy J. Pizza
Then what happened after that?
- [06:30]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah, well, I mean, as so many of us, I got pretty depressed, I think. You know, like the post project slump is a thing. And this was just that to the nth degree. Like, I did do some short work that I had like deadlines for. You know, I had. I used to do a lot of work for this website called the Nib that made really great nonfiction outlet. And so I did a couple of pieces for them over the course of the following year. But I was so drained from the book and then nothing was refilling my cup. So it was like it just sort of. I just sort of petered out of making sort of self directed comics work and I was doing other creative things. I was learning how to storyboard and I started working in the animation industry and I was doing, you know, But I really like this thing that had been such a central thing in my life for like 10 years was really. Felt really dried up.
- [07:44]
Andy J. Pizza
So yeah, I wondered like. Okay, so you have this really, I mean, graphic novel. I've never done one, but I can just, I can't imagine the amount of work that that takes. It's just a huge body of work. What was that? First of all? What was that, that particular book's schedule like? Sorry, I didn't mean to bring it up. It looked like it just like hit you with some serious.
- [08:12]
Sophie Yanow
No, no, no, no.
- [08:13]
Andy J. Pizza
No memories coming at you.
- [08:15]
Sophie Yanow
No, I mean that book was interesting because I. It was kind of my albatross, like for a long time. I mean that was in its original iteration. So I mean, I guess we haven't said it all with the story is, but it's like a hitchhiking sort of adventure, coming of age, college era story. I'll leave it at that for now, I guess. But I had these experiences around like class, college, encountering like leftist philosophy and praxis and like trying to live my. My truth, what I thought was my truth. I don't know, trying to be a good person in this quote unquote good person in this really specific way. And I also went, you know, part of that was I ended up hitchhiking around Western Europe when I was doing a study abroad and shoplifting and various things that I thought were, you know, under capitalism. This is how we. This is how we live. And it was a struggle. Anyway, I wanted to do a story about it, but I started, you know, my first. After those experiences happened, I was like, oh, yeah, this is my. This is my. On the road. Like, this is my. I'm gonna write all about this. And I. In my senior year of college, I sat down and I. And I drew some pages, and I was like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing. I had been making comics a little bit. I had been doing, like, independent studies. I didn't know what I was doing, so I. I put it away. And basically that was the story of, I don't know, many, many years where I would. I mean, luckily, I guess, you know, I would put it away. I would work on some other kind of comics because I really was obsessed with comics, and I wanted to be good at making comics.
- [10:00]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [10:00]
Sophie Yanow
So I would work on these other projects, short things. Journal Comics, which. When I started making Journal Comics for the first time, which was very influenced by, like, Linda Berry and sort of Gabrielle Bell and some of all of that stuff, I still felt like, oh, this is practice. This is practice for the big. For the big thing. And it is wild to me that I actually eventually figured out how to pull off the Big Thing. Like, whoa. But it was so hard. I mean, my. I. When I. When I had to sit down and. And do it, because I. I. At that point, I had. I put out another graphic novel. I had put out shorter work. I had a contract for this book, now withdrawn and quarterly, and. And. And I had a deadline and I had to actually do it. And so then that's kind of when I started to get obsessed with habit formation and, like, behavioral psychology and stuff, because I was like, how do I get myself to sit down and draw this comic in the. Want to do it? Which is a way that I have never successfully made finished artwork before.
- [11:08]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [11:09]
Sophie Yanow
And so that was the first thing that I sort of had to figure out in that regard.
- [11:13]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, I. I love that you're talking about that. This is something that's been on my mind a lot recently where I feel like there. I. Maybe I'm missing this. I don't know. But it doesn't seem like there's a lot of artists talking about the. What, to me, is the most difficult part, which is how do I get myself to do anything. How do I. Like, this is a huge stumbling block. And it's funny because I hadn't really thought about that. That was kind of my way into behaviors, behavioral psychology and things of that nature. But it was like that was exact same. Just feeling like I'm an out of control monster, like I don't know what I'm doing. Like. And so I totally get that. I want to get to the. Some of the books and stuff like that in a beat. But what was your like routine when you finally got it up and running? Was it a routine or was it just like sit in the chair for ages?
- [12:09]
Sophie Yanow
Definitely not just sit in the chair. I mean also to respond to just what some of what else you were saying. Like, I, I am also a person who has an ADHD diagnosis. And I got that when I was 30. So that was. And that was when I was just sort of sitting down to really, you know, try to do this. And I just finished like a 30 page comic. And I just was like, why was this so hard? Even though I had done another book before that and whatever, it's just like, why does this continue to be so hard? You know, I'm like, right, yeah, my routine ended up well. I found some of the James Clear stuff around habit stuff. And this was before his book came out. So this is during his like blog era, I would say. He's sort of a science communicator in a way. Like he's, he's, he's a big nerd and he's pretty, you know, he's good at, at writing things, clearly. So he was writing about habit formation and based on the work of. Largely based on the work of this guy, BJ Fogg, who's this Stanford behavioral lab guy. So I started looking at that stuff. And so the stuff that I figured out that was really helpful for me was like habit stacking and also like bundling, doing the task with something that I actually wanted to do. And so that looked like for me, I really got into meditation, I got into running. So I had this sort of very rigid morning routine where I would like meditate for 20 minutes and then I would go and run. But these routines were all things that started really small, right? So I didn't start at 20 minutes. It was like I would meditate for a minute and I did like the couch to 5K running thing. You know, I would run for three minutes or whatever. And then eventually it gets more and more. And the thing for the actual sitting down and doing the work was something that at the time I think was like, it was really less common. This was pre pandemic. Right. But I, I basically enlisted a bunch of virtual studio mates and because I realized like, one of the things that I'm really lacking, I had moved across the country. Like, it just happened. The timing was such that I was working from like a home studio, which I hadn't done in a really long time. I had. Had shared work environments. And so I enlist all these virtual studio mates and we would, we had this. We had such rigid. A rigid routine. Like we would. We would like log on at 9am and you know, we would have our little water cooler talk for a little bit. And after like 15 minutes of that, we would jump into these work blocks and we would work for. We would, we would set an intention. We would say, okay, this is what I'm going to try to do for the next 50 minutes. We would each say our thing and then we would like put. The person would be like silently on zoom or I guess it was Skype at the time. And. And then we would do our work and then the timer would go off and we would, we would report back and we would be like, hey, so how'd it go? You know, And I did this for like, yeah, I don't know, a year and a half, like pre pandemic. And it. I continued to do it during the pandemic on other projects, but that was how I drew a book.
- [15:33]
Andy J. Pizza
There's so much interesting stuff there. You know, one thing that you, you talking about this kind of rigid routine and building it up and all that. I think I have this weird relationship to discipline and talking about discipline, especially being a man, there's a certain edge to that. I just do not have and do not want.
- [15:59]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah.
- [16:00]
Andy J. Pizza
But I also feel compelled on some level. If I'm putting a broadcast out that's in some way spiritually to my past self, I have like a. A desire to be like Andy. I know that. I know that this is harder for you than most people. I'm aware of that. But the sooner you realize you can do things like this, the better off you're going to be. Because it took me a good decade to get into a running routine and realize that I could do it and realize, you know, it's good to know like for ADHD habits don't work as fluidly or as, you know, automatically you're. I still. I'm going to have to make myself do it no matter how long I've been doing it. But yeah, it's one of those things where I'm like, I'm. I'm glad you're telling this story. Both from the artist point of view, the ADHD point of view, because discipline was the daily projects, the whatever routines. That's the whole. Everything good came from that for me.
- [17:01]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I think there's something about discipline that there's like just the strict, I don't know, sort of traditional concept of discipline of it's like, requires this negative self talk that I don't possess in that regard in a way that is productive for me. Like, I cannot like.
- [17:26]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, that's a great point. Because I think my reasoning for not being able to maybe know how to talk about it is I don't know how to think about discipline through a different lens. Because I don't. When you say that, I think, yeah, that's what I don't like about the term is that it kind of implies like army sergeant energy. But I don't think that's how, what, how discipline actually showed up in my life. Really. The ones that, you know. But going back, let's just talk about the books and the, and the techniques and stuff like that. How, you know, when, when I was reading your blog post about this, first of all, I was like, oh, thank God, an artist that has become a nerd for this crap. Because I'm so embarrassed, but I need it. It's like, you know, it's like a Y security blanket or something. But it really helped me. It's weird. Like there's such a stigma around it. Yeah, for good reason. In that it's dicey territory. You have people like James Clear, who I personally think, you know his book Atomic Habits. Tons of really great stuff in there. But there for every atomic habits, there's 15 other ones that you don't, shouldn't trust or, you know, are dangerous territory because it is that science communicator. It's in between science and people. How did you get. How did you. When you're in that zone, you're like, oh, man, I don't know how to do this. How did you get. Did you feel a stigma with that?
- [18:54]
Sophie Yanow
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, for a long time I was really. I was like, okay, if I'm going to be an artist, like, I was like, I'm not going to go to grad school. Yeah, who goes to grad school? Like, I'm going to. I say this as a teacher of grad school and undergrad now, but, you know, I was Like, I was like, I'm gonna figure this out. Like, I'm gonna Patti Smith this, you know, Like, I gotta go and, like, live my cool life somewhere, man.
- [19:23]
Andy J. Pizza
Like, you gotta Jack Kerouac on the road.
- [19:26]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah.
- [19:27]
Andy J. Pizza
Your whole, like, mindset.
- [19:28]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah. And I think that that was like. I don't know. Yeah, Like, I got. I did a lot of stuff, but then at a certain point. Okay, there's a point to this. Like, at a certain point, you know, I did end up, I mean, with the contradictions with that book. That was where I sort of started beating my head against the wall. And I was like, why can't I do this? I don't know what I'm doing. I did this fellowship here at the center for Cartoon Studies. I ended up becoming a student there to get help from Jason Lutz in particular, who's this amazing cartoonist who I have been a fan of since I was a teenager. And now he's my friend. And it's wild. But. But I think, like, going through the process of becoming a grad student and then. And then now, having taught grad students for, like, 10 years, I think there's a part of me that's just like, people should. People should know that this is how it actually is, you know, Like. And also that it is. So. I mean, I get to help these students move through something that took me so long to figure out for myself. And so whatever, like, cringiness there is to this stuff, like, I kind of just have to be like, there's more value to this than there is cringe. And it's like, it's fine. It's fine. Like, I can be a cool artist with taste. And also, this is my reality. And this is like, you know, I don't know. I don't want it. I don't want art making to be so. I mean, you know, being mystical is, like, kind of cool, but it's just not reality. That it's all that all the time, you know? So.
- [21:02]
Andy J. Pizza
Well, I'm really glad you're out here talking about it because it makes me feel less embarrassing. Embarrassed to have an Eisner Award winning comic artist out there being like, you should read this Atomic Habits book. It makes you, like, okay, all right, I'm okay. Because when I started the podcast, I had the same thing of it felt like, oh, man, I have to, like, come out and talk about these things that have really helped me that are embarrassing.
- [21:25]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah.
- [21:26]
Andy J. Pizza
And so. Yeah. But. But I think it's really great. I. I'm trying to work through this book called Master and His emissary by Ian McGrill Gilchrist. And it's about the relationship of the left and right hemispheres of the brain. And it's a, it's way less pop psychology level version of that. But the big idea of Master and His Emissary is that is to learn how to make the left logical brain in service to the big picture right brain. And this is what it's kind of getting at of artists, for good reason are skeptical and afraid of that side because it is kind of. It can take over you and take over countries and take really do a number on people. But yeah, I love that you're having this conversation because in order to get stuff done, you actually do have to use more of your brain than maybe you feel comfortable with. So let's go back a little bit to the habit. Stacking and bundling and what you're talking about with getting the habit up and running with these little, you know, atomic moves. Could you speak to some of the particulars of that?
- [22:48]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah, so I guess, you know, just for the ones I already talked about, like the running and the meditation, which is. So. Have you read about, like, chess masters and how they practice?
- [22:59]
Andy J. Pizza
Not really. Like, I've heard a little bit on, you know, podcasts and just some, like, stories that you. That you hear about the lore of.
- [23:07]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah, yeah, I just, I think, Yeah, I think I read some long article in the New Yorker or something like a while ago and I think I was like. And it was about like, okay, now they're playing tennis and now they're, you know, they're doing all these physical activities and now they're just going to focus on chess for like two hours and. But their days were mostly these other things. So anyway, I think it is funny when I'm thinking about and when I was trying to figure out how to actually do the thing, so much of it was not like the routine of making work itself. It was like, okay, treat it like you're the chess master, you're the athlete.
- [23:43]
Andy J. Pizza
You know, you're, you're, you're amazing.
- [23:47]
Sophie Yanow
Getting ready for this peak performance every.
- [23:50]
Andy J. Pizza
Day makes total sense because for me, I, I think of creativity as like brain athletics. You're literally like, how do you get your brain to do this stuff?
- [24:01]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah.
- [24:01]
Andy J. Pizza
How do you get into that side of your brain?
- [24:04]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah.
- [24:05]
Andy J. Pizza
So I love this. Like, the things you weren't, the, the art. The time you weren't doing art was really where a lot of this focus. And what was the, what did you Think that the meditation, the running, like, what does that give you?
- [24:19]
Sophie Yanow
I think it gave me focus, I mean just on the most basic of terms. Like it. Yeah, yeah. It just was like, okay, I'm going to clear my head in these two different ways. I'm going to sort of like get any of the physical anxiety out through the running. I'm going to get some of the sort of head stuff, you know, taken care of. I don't know if you can really take care, but I'm going to calm the mind a little. But yeah, anyway, so that's just to give those habits context. But I, but I, yeah, I started out really, really with really tiny amounts and I mean this is the sort of. The atomic habit stuff is really like. Or I guess James Clearsight's another. I forget who the name of the guy. Leo Batata I think it is who talks about this. But just to make it, to make new habits so easy that it would be like more like psychologically painful to not do them than to do them like that. You would be like, I committed to this thing. It's really only one minute of sitting down. I, I can do that, I can do that and I'm actually going to feel better than if I don't and if I, and then I am beating myself up for, for five minutes. Right.
- [25:29]
Andy J. Pizza
So yeah, and I, that I think about the atomic habits element of it. Like don't, don't make more than one habit at the same time.
- [25:41]
Sophie Yanow
In that. Yeah.
- [25:42]
Andy J. Pizza
Even with running it's, you know, it's multiple habits to say I'm going to run every other day, I'm going to run for this long, I'm going to run at this speed. That's three habits. Just starting with I'm going to run every other day. The time and the speed are off the table until, I mean even, even.
- [25:59]
Sophie Yanow
Before that it's like, I'm going to put my running shoes on. Right? Like that's the thing. Right. It's like the trigger idea of like, okay, I put my running shoes on. I mean, yeah, in the, in the James Clear school of thought. You like, you like spend a month putting your running shoes on every day before you actually run, right?
- [26:16]
Andy J. Pizza
And you feel, and anything like that, it just makes you feel so d not run. You're like, dude, now I can't run. Come on. Like I've done this.
- [26:42]
Sophie Yanow
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- [27:18]
Andy J. Pizza
I think you're on mute.
- [27:19]
Sophie Yanow
Find something that sounds better for your career on LinkedIn. With LinkedIn job collections, you can browse curated collections by relevant industries and benefits like Flexpto or hybrid workplaces so you can find the right job for you. Get started@LinkedIn.com jobs finding where you fit. LinkedIn knows how.
- [27:46]
Andy J. Pizza
I don't talk a lot about and for I think good reason, I don't talk a lot about medicine. Medication. Yeah, it's not my place to talk about that. Okay. Yeah, I am not medicated for adhd. There have been times in my life when I was and I just, I don't have an opinion on what other people do or what they need to do. That's not, that's not for me to talk about really. But I can say that medicine or not, these kinds of things like meditation and, and running were so vital to, for me doing anything. But the reason I bring that up is because both of which I'm not much of a meditator, I do other kinds of things that are related to that. But how did you get into it? Were you, what, did it sound interesting? Did both of those sound appealing before you got into habits of them running?
- [28:39]
Sophie Yanow
Not at all. Like I'm a cyclist really. Like in my, I'm a huge bike nerd. But you know, with the running I was just like, this is the most efficient way for me. Like I was like, I am on this deadline and I can run for 30 minutes or I can bike for like an hour and a half unless I'm going to do, I don't know, intervals up a giant mountain or something. So I, there is a part of my brain that really wants sufficiency and you know, I don't know whatever that means. But, but my dad is a huge runner, so maybe there was also a part of me that also had sort of an identity thing which, which is useful for building habits according to the research. True. So maybe there was something where I was like, where I was like that would be wild since I hate running. But what if I, what if I could do this? It would, would really make my morning routine right. Real tight meditation Is something that like. So I grew up in this place that actually there's a very famous meditation center there. And so it's kind of been in the water, I guess, for me for a long time. Like I used to have in high school, I had an English teacher who would make us all like, lie on the floor. I don't know, it was carpeted. I guess they vacuumed it a lot. But she would do these guided meditations with us. And it was like, I'm from Northern California, so just to textualize. It was so. It was like everybody would be so excited when it was time to do the meditation in her class. And I. Yeah, so I don't remember exactly when meditation sort of came into my life as something that was self directed, but it was something that I knew that when I did do it, I felt a lot better. So I think just getting into a routine with it, I was just like, this is it. This is my time. I have to do this book. And I just have to, like, I have to figure out a way to routinize these things that I know put me. Put me in shape to actually achieve this.
- [30:43]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, man, that's. It's so funny how I don't feel like this is talked about a lot with creative people. As I'm hearing you say that, I'm thinking, man, like, it. It's literally like. Like the brain being just this muscle of creativity. It's. It's literally like thinking about athletes that aren't taking care of their body. It's like. But it's hard. I'm not. I am. Look, I am not the. I shouldn't be talking about habits because I find it so freaking difficult. But.
- [31:14]
Sophie Yanow
Well, hey, I don't run anymore, right?
- [31:16]
Andy J. Pizza
I mean, it comes and goes and I have. Yeah, it's a lot of. It's a lot to. To be a creative person, let alone someone with ADHD that maintains habits. But they are, you know, the more I've learned, the better off I've been. So I think it's really important. Anyway, I want. You know, I was thinking about you talking about your teacher having you lie down and do this meditation. I actually think, like, why I have resistance to meditation is probably my hyperactive side of my adhd because I have both types. Yeah, both types.
- [31:51]
Sophie Yanow
I'm not so much the hyper. I don't know. I. Yeah, I'd have to look back at my charts. I would say intuitively, I think I'm less on the hyperactive. It depends. Get me talking about a certain Thing. And yeah, I'll just. I'll be like, oh, I'm sorry, did I not let you talk for the last 30 minutes?
- [32:08]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, I have a problem with that. The. But so I think the hyperactive thing makes me a bit resistant. Although sometimes when I'm really stressed, I will do, like, some meditation app stuff. But I thought maybe also I have some, like, hang ups memory wise. Because our music teacher did this guided meditation once, and I was really, like, so relaxed. And then at the end she went, okay. And we all freaked out and was.
- [32:39]
Sophie Yanow
Like.
- [32:43]
Andy J. Pizza
This is abuse. We were like. It was like heart attack.
- [32:46]
Sophie Yanow
Oh, my gosh.
- [32:47]
Andy J. Pizza
What are you doing? Like, just, you know, drunk with power with these kids. But with meditation, what has helped you get into it? Because for me, it's just an overwhelming idea. I already struggle with just sitting still, let alone, you know, So I don't know what things help getting that.
- [33:08]
Sophie Yanow
I only do guided meditation. Like, I don't sit down and go, like, all right, let's go. We got this.
- [33:13]
Andy J. Pizza
Like, me too. I solo.
- [33:16]
Sophie Yanow
No way. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, there's headspace, there's breathe. I think I haven't really. I don't know. There's free two minute meditations on YouTube. Yeah, I. For me, it's like, I got to find the voice that's like, sometimes I'll put one on. I'll be like, nope, nope, we're noping on out of here.
- [33:36]
Andy J. Pizza
Yes, I totally, totally get that. But.
- [33:39]
Sophie Yanow
But yeah, there's. There's on YouTube, there's meditations of all. Of all lengths. So you can. You can. It sounds silly to have a two minute guided meditation, but, like, turns out it's not silly. It's awesome.
- [33:50]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, it can. It can really do the trick. One thing you touched on was the identity portion. Could you just elaborate a little bit on that?
- [33:58]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah. Okay. So again, I mean, it's funny because I'm saying this stuff, I'm like, the research states, but I can't cite my sources is really here. A lot of it is in James Clear's book. And also P.J. fogg's book, Tiny Habits. I mean, he's. Fogg is the actual researcher, I guess. You know, I would say, I think that James Clear's book is much more accessible. But Fogg's book, it's closer obviously, to the actual research because he's the researcher. So any of this stuff, you know, if you want to look it up afterwards, that's. That's where those things would be, I guess. But the Identity thing is just that it's. It's easier to form a habit if it's. If it's part of an identity that you either want or already identify with. So for me, I have identified as a cartoonist for so long that building habits around making comics, you know, it's like I want to be. I want to maintain my, you know, being part of the. In group. And so this is the thing that I. You have a little more. I don't know if it's willpower, what you call it, but just compulsion to actually follow through. You know, I think when I was. When I had those virtual work buddies, they were all cartoonists, so I think that that also helped. It was like, okay, you're doing the thing that I want to do, and I'm doing the thing that you want to do. And, you know, so it reinforced the identity portion of it as well. Yeah.
- [35:28]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah. And, you know, when I first started the show, if I would get to a point where I was like, oh, this really. Just. Just go check out the book, I realized, like, some people want to do that, but a lot of people that are creative artists, you know, they're actually appreciating me condensing it and translating it to creative people.
- [35:47]
Sophie Yanow
Totally.
- [35:47]
Andy J. Pizza
So, you know, I'm happy that you're here talking about it, because not everybody wants to go read these things.
- [35:54]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah.
- [35:54]
Andy J. Pizza
But, yeah, the identity thing's huge. And I experienced that firsthand where. Growing up in the Midwest, where not just the Midwest, but my particular family and upbringing. Like, we had terrible eating habits, like, just really, really bad. Like fast food, like tons of crap. And when I moved to the UK and lived over there for five years, it. It really quickly changed who I was. And I think it's James Clear that talks about how, you know, joining groups where the desired behavior is the. Is normal. Like, it's accepted. It's what everybody's doing. It changes so quick. Now, moving to England didn't help me on the drinking front. That actually took me, you know, way worse off in terms of drinking habits. But. But, yeah, this idea of, like, owning the identity, getting into those groups, and that's, you know, groups like this one online. How did you end up setting that up? Were these people that you went to school with, you said.
- [37:00]
Sophie Yanow
It was a range. One of them was one of the folks that I used to teach at the center for Cartoon Studies with. One of them was someone who. Who had been one of my grad students and was now working on his own book. Different. I mean, you know, I guess the thing is, I was instating this habit at a point where I had a community. It was just a community that I was physically far from because I had moved. So. But I did have. I did have folks to tap in to that with and. Which is, you know, and I think that's an. That's an interesting thing also that it's like this in group thing is so. Or, you know, being a part of a group where the thing that you want to do is. Is the norm, it's like, so helpful and. And when you're a part of maybe a more organic community, you know, like, when I was first making comics, I was in the San Francisco Bay area. I had a lot of comics, like cartoonist friends who were a fair bit older than me, but they. They were just sort of in. There was an artist community. Right. But I would see with my grad students that they would come together for two or three years and have that, and then they would, you know, move to the, whatever, four corners of the world, and suddenly it was like they didn't have it. So I. I witnessed that, I think, before I had to figure that out for myself. And some of them figured it out better than others. So. Yeah. Yeah.
- [38:33]
Andy J. Pizza
If anyone asks me about, should I go to art school? I always say, like, if you can do it without going into tremendous debt.
- [38:39]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah, Yeah.
- [38:40]
Andy J. Pizza
I highly recommend it to be a part of at least some kind of organized community where the desired behavior is the norm. Like that. It's so. It's such such an important thing. And I wish. I wish it was easier to cultivate online. It feels like it should be, but it's. I don't know, it's not easy.
- [39:01]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah, some of it. Some of it, yeah. I did this thing. This is a little, I don't know, funny. I did this thing called that I called backpack, like a year ago, maybe a year and a half ago, which was BAC pac Build a Comics Practice Among Community. And I was doing these, like. I was doing these zooms where it was just like an hour and a half, and it was just. I was walking. I was walking them through an exercise, and it was like a free thing. It was kind of a. Just an experiment. And I would have like 30 or 40 people in the. In the call, and we would do the exercise, but then after every couple of steps, I would just put them into breakout rooms. And then they would, like, talk amongst themselves and just talk about what they had been doing. And then we would come back and keep doing the exercise and One of the folks that. That attended this. I've. Now I've met a bunch of people, you know, in different places who are like, hey, I did your backpack thing. And one of the people was like, hey, I did backpack. And then one of the people that was in one of those breakout rooms came and stayed with me, and I was like, yes, we did it.
- [40:10]
Andy J. Pizza
That's amazing.
- [40:11]
Sophie Yanow
So, I don't know. You gotta get a little weird, but, yeah, it's possible. I don't know. Yeah.
- [40:15]
Andy J. Pizza
That's awesome. So you're gonna ever gonna do that again, you think?
- [40:18]
Sophie Yanow
I would. I would do it again. I would like to do it again. It's just like, yeah, the teaching. And I started doing. I have a lot of. I have a lot of different plates spinning.
- [40:30]
Andy J. Pizza
That's cool. Yeah, I get that. And I. You know, there's a lot of things I'd like to do that I just don't. Can't make time for something. I wanted to. I got really interested in, like, creating some kind of creative incubator thing where you get people together. They're. They're talking about a project that they wanted to do for a long time. Couldn't find the willpower, couldn't find the structure, you know, whatever, and just have some kind of accountability that lasts for a semester, you know, 12. 12 weeks or something. Yeah, that's really cool. I love that. So, okay, so let's go back real quick to after you hand this comic in, and then, you know, even. Just the workload you probably needed a break from. But then I wondered also if once it came out and it wins an Eisner Award and Alison Bleckdale is loving it and all of that, did that also add to the. I don't know if I. I don't know how to make stuff or you made it more complicated. Because I was. I mean, I'm putting myself. I'm projecting, because if that was me, I'd be like, oh, God, what do I do now? Is that. Was that an element of it?
- [41:42]
Sophie Yanow
Okay. Yeah. I do think I talked about this in a blog post a little bit. There definitely was a suddenly, like, oh, no, people are looking at me, like, feeling of like. Like, yeah. I had published, like, quite a bit of stuff before that, but I. I don't know if it was the book itself or it was just, like, an accumulation of enough stuff where I was like, huh, yeah, okay. Like, I'm an author, and when I put a thing out, it's like, it feels representational of. Of what I Do you know, like.
- [42:17]
Andy J. Pizza
Your body of work and you're. You're now a celebrated author. Like, that's. That's a whole other thing.
- [42:25]
Sophie Yanow
Sure.
- [42:25]
Andy J. Pizza
So how do you. How did you get back into making stuff?
- [42:29]
Sophie Yanow
So, yeah, it took me so, so, so long, and I just, like, it really took me. Getting fed up and just being like, okay, Sophie, get it together. Like, you want this thing. You've figured out how to do these things in the past that you wanted and you found hard. Like, let's figure it out. So I hadn't up to. And during Making the Contradictions, I had been really into the habit building stuff, but I hadn't had such a focus on it in the time after it. I think I was just doing a lot of different other things. So I was like, okay, I'm going to revisit this stuff. Maybe I can get myself out of this slump by doing. By doing this. And that was like. It was almost four years, I think, after I had handed the book in. So I sat down and. And I tried to. I tried to come up with. With a habit that would address a few different things, like including this fear of putting sort of uncooked work out into the world. I do think that was a big. A big hindrance, like a big route. I think it wasn't just this thing of, like, I can't sit down and draw comics. It was like, I am a little bit afraid of showing my soft belly to the world right now. So.
- [43:59]
Andy J. Pizza
And, you know, I. I think it's really an interesting notion because before you get any accolades, you, us, anyone, you feel like, well, you know, it'll be so good to get that validation. Then I'll feel really confident and whatever. And then you realize, like, oh, there's just two different chapters. The first one, we're like, waiting for it. And then the one after, we're like, oh, my gosh, now I have to. Do I have to keep it up or, you know, prove something so it's not, you know, you have to figure out how to have this relationship to confidence and putting stuff out and no matter what you're doing. So what? That. Was that where the gentle comic making came in?
- [44:40]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah, yeah.
- [44:41]
Andy J. Pizza
Could you talk about.
- [44:42]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah, yeah. So, okay, so when I sat down, I was like, what. What am I gonna do? I was like, okay, I have to do. I just have to think about it in these. In these terms where this is another thing that Clear talks about is this idea that, like, good work is the byproduct of habits. Right? Like, it's not go out and try to make the thing that is the best thing you've ever made. It's make a bunch of stuff and somewhere in there probably will be the best thing you've ever made.
- [45:11]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [45:12]
Sophie Yanow
Which is like, you have to make all this embarrassing stuff and then like, and hope that people just forget about that stuff, I guess. Or hope that everyone is generous and you know, and will eventually read the thing and that they're like, oh, yeah. Oh, this is the, this is the one here. But it's like so hard. Yeah. It's impossible when. Oh, God. Yeah. Overcoming that is.
- [45:39]
Andy J. Pizza
It's very hard. Very hard. I, I think I was really, really obsessed with thinking about creative arcs and how what a creative career looks like. And I knew I didn't want to be a one hit wonder and I didn't want to be. I didn't want to be someone who only made stuff when they were younger. I wanted to. And I, the people that I would see do this long term thing that had even, you know, some of their best stuff come out way deep into their creative journey. I think that almost all of them had published a lot of stuff that wasn't great.
- [46:15]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah. Yeah.
- [46:16]
Andy J. Pizza
And I think I just felt like I, I'm willing to do that if that means, you know, growing over time and, and sticking at it and, you know, all that.
- [46:26]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah. Like intellectually I can say I'm willing to do that, but I probably have.
- [46:31]
Andy J. Pizza
Less shame in terms of just artistic integrity. You know, I don't know that probably that's a benefit of coming from the Midwest suburbs or something. I never, I don't know, I didn't even know. Like you weren't supposed to call yourself an artist for a long time. Like I, I didn't have that, that phase.
- [46:47]
Sophie Yanow
These hang ups are the worst. They're so. These stupid barriers and so what is.
- [46:52]
Andy J. Pizza
The gentle comic habit?
- [46:54]
Sophie Yanow
Okay. Yeah. So the habit itself was. It was four things. And so the first thing was to spend. To start out spending one minute drawing a comic. And this is like the just putting your shoes on to run and not doing the other things, not running. Right. It's like, spend a minute drawing a comic. Don't spend more than that on the first day. And then the second thing is to try to draw a comic every day. And I was saying, okay, I'm allowed to miss one day, but I can't miss two days in a row. And I would track it. You know, I had a little like, I think it was just like graph paper that I would put little X's on or whatever. And then every. Every day that I draw a comic, I spend one additional minute drawing the comic. And no more than that.
- [47:46]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [47:47]
Sophie Yanow
And then the last thing is to post it to my blog. Not to Instagram, not to Twitter, whatever. Post it to the blog. And then that's it. Yeah.
- [48:02]
Andy J. Pizza
So that's great. And what, what it. I mean, I can see a lot of benefits to the idea of just posting to your blog, but what was your thinking behind that?
- [48:11]
Sophie Yanow
I think that, I mean, some of it was the I wanted to do. I mean, so something that I know that you've talked about in, on this podcast in the past is the. The idea of, like, practicing on stage. Right.
- [48:24]
Andy J. Pizza
And I wasn't fishing, by the way. I did not think. Did not. That's not what I was thinking.
- [48:30]
Sophie Yanow
Well, that's. That's one of the things. Right. So. But I mean, I think that. So I wanted to be. I wanted to just to do the embarrassing thing again. Like, I wanted to put the stuff out because I was like, this sucks. Like, it sucks that I'm stopping myself from putting stuff out into the world because I'm afraid of how I'm going to be perceived. And so I do think putting it on the blog, it meant that there's no likes on my blog. There's, like, comments are allowed, but it just meant, like, okay, I'm putting a thing out, People can see it, but I'm also not putting it out in this way where I'm not going to stress out about it. And if I post it and I feel good about it, I can repost it somewhere else if I want to. But the primary thing is I'm going to publish this thing. You know, maybe I'll put it in my newsletter, which is very infrequent, but, like, maybe I'll put it there, whatever. But the idea is, like, I'm not hiding, right? Not. I'm not putting it, you know, on every. Whatever, plastering it across the land and then having weird feelings when people, you know, like it or don't. So there was. There was that element. But also it. It was like a public commitment, which is also something that is useful for habit building. Right. Is to say, I'm going to do this thing. And even if. Even though I knew at first it was only like a handful of my friends probably reading it, my. You know, because I told some of my friends, I'm going to do this thing, and then they would text me and be like, hey, you know, And I was like, okay, this is the level of, you know, and eventually it was more people reading it. But so that was, that was the idea behind posting to the blog. I, I wanted to have a place where the stuff would end up. I wanted to rip the band aid off from this publishing fear that I developed. And I also just think that like people, I just think people should have blogs.
- [50:15]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [50:16]
Sophie Yanow
Like, especially in this era where it's really clear that social media is just.
- [50:21]
Andy J. Pizza
Like, who the heck knows, like, major death spiral. Right?
- [50:24]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah, it's just like have your little garden, you know, like. Yeah.
- [50:30]
Andy J. Pizza
So when some of those little comics though, did take off on some level, how did that happen with them being on your blog?
- [50:40]
Sophie Yanow
That was just, I mean, I did post stuff on, like sometimes I would do a comic and a couple days later I would be like, you know what? I kind of like that one. Like, I would get to the point where I was like, I don't feel tender about this. You know, like, it was a nice thing to be able to be like, I'm going to put this out while it's still raw enough that like, I'm, I'm not giving my, myself a chance to second guess it and think like, well, this is really good enough to publish. Like, that's not the question. There's no question. It's like, you're publishing, right? If you're making the thing, you're publishing. And then later I would be like, I kind of feel like I'm going to feel all right about that one. And then, you know, sometimes posting it and then whoa, like, okay, this one really hit.
- [51:18]
Andy J. Pizza
So that is amazing. And this is the proof that I wasn't fishing for some, was that I didn't even think of it that way. And this actually is really evolving my thinking of the writing on stage idea because I was thinking about how anytime I've told anybody to write on stage on the Internet, I've always thought, yeah, and the problem with that is it's public. It is public. Whereas with a stand up comedian, they're going into a club, lots of which have you lock up your phone. So like this is, that's a really like isolated space to practice and make mistakes. And you did such a cool version of that. And I, and I actually realized like, oh, I did that in a different way on accident. Where podcasts don't have this virality. They don't, they really don't. Like, especially if you're not doing video with it. So, you know, doing that for 10 years was really comfortable now that we're putting them on YouTube, I'm noticing like, oh, I'm more aware of like, if this, this could take off in a way that, yeah, you know, used to in theory sound really exciting, but now it's like, oh man, that's a totally different thing. So I love this thing that you had where you have this way where you can have a more confined space to try things and put things out regularly and then have also the delayed thing of a couple of days later if you're like, you know what actually that one is. I like that one. Then you can put it on the next level on a place where it can maybe have a little bit of traction organically. Yeah, that's really cool. I'm like very.
- [52:57]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I think, I mean, that's also. When I was doing the Contradictions, I didn't mention this, but I also. I had a Patreon and I was. And I. And I put it up as a webcomic eventually. But at first I was just putting it on the Patreon and it was paywalled. And so it was also this nice place where it was like. I mean, that was great because I was like, these people are paying me to have a deadline.
- [53:19]
Andy J. Pizza
That's so cool. I thought about doing that and I've never. Because I. I have some bigger projects that I haven't really been able to figure out how to get myself to finish or do.
- [53:29]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah.
- [53:30]
Andy J. Pizza
And I've explored that, but I didn't. Yeah, I was. So you like that process? It seems like a great.
- [53:36]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah. I mean, I don't know if Patreon itself is necessarily the place. There's alternatives there that I looked into and are like. Like a ghost. You could do it through Ghost. That's a cool open source blog substack alternative that lets you take people's money or lets people give you their money. But it was really, it was really nice. Yeah. To be like, oh, yeah, these people are paying me to have a deadline. But also it's this. It just does. Did feel like a very intimate space of like, yeah, I can post. You know, there's stuff that I. That's on my Patreon that, I mean, it's public, but I. I'm glad it's not like being crawled by search engines.
- [54:18]
Andy J. Pizza
That's a great. I love that. I also just think so much of this show is about how to hack your brain to get yourself to do stuff. How do you find a way. And that that's a great method for longer term stuff. And I don't, you know, as on the consuming end. Like I have people that I support through these various mediums that you know, writing music and they're releasing demos and all that. And I'm like, I'm happy to be supporting that. And I like the early access and the people that don't like just don't sign up. That's just the deal. That's awesome. Well, okay. I, I, I loved your blog post. Where can people go find that? Because a lot of this stuff is kind of bullet pointed in there.
- [55:01]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah. So my website is Sophie yano.com which is Sophie with a ph s O-P-H-I e and then my last name is y a n o w dot com. The URL is just sophiano.com a gentle comics habit. But it's a bunch of dashes and in between. So if you go to the website and go to the blog, you kind of have to go back if you like a page right now. Well, a few pages, I guess. I don't know.
- [55:27]
Andy J. Pizza
I'll put it in the show notes too.
- [55:28]
Sophie Yanow
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but yeah, it's on the blog and that's, that's really the spot to read it.
- [55:34]
Andy J. Pizza
Cool. You know, I later, you know, I don't know what you have in the works, but I'd love to have you back and just chat through some of the creative side, the story side. I have so many more questions now about your thinking around showing not telling and how you were wanting to work that stuff out, but also future projects. So when you have the next stuff come out, let's talk one more thing.
- [55:59]
Sophie Yanow
About the blog though.
- [56:00]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, go ahead.
- [56:01]
Sophie Yanow
The, I put a little hashtag in there. The like Gentle Comics habit. And people have been posting, like lots of people have been doing it. It's amazing. It's really fun to watch. And they're still doing it. You know, it's been about a month now since I posted that and there are people who've been doing it for the whole month. You know there are people who started fell off but there are also people who are starting now and it just keep like I'm just sort of looking at it and I'm like this is, this is very charming and really cool to see it actually working for people. And people are, people are posting and saying like, wow, this, this is working. Foreign.
- [56:56]
Andy J. Pizza
As promised, I'm back with the creative call to adventure. This is your CTA this week. It's called the Gentle Comic Habit and it comes straight From Sophie, you know's blog. These are the rules. You spend one minute drawing, writing your first comic. That's number one. Number two is try to draw a comic every day. It's okay to miss a day, but don't miss two days in a row. Number three, spend an additional minute each time you draw a comic. So day two, you're doing two minutes. Day three, you're doing three minutes. Day four, you're doing four minutes, so on and so forth. You're building that habit over time. And then number four is to post it. Sophie posts hers to her blog. You could post Instagram, you could post it to substack. But there's an element of accountability there. And so when you post it, use the hashtag gentle comic habit. Or tag Sophie, you know, and tag me on that first one. I'd love to see these get started. I think this is just such a brilliant way to get that visual brain, the symbol brain, and the writing brain going and working up over time. Even if you're a musician, I could see how this would fit into your practice or a filmmaker. I think it's kind of like a visual journal of some kind. I think it's really powerful, really interesting in a way, to not just be creative whenever you want, but make it a practice and a habit. So I'm super glad that Sophie started. Started this and came on the show to share it. And I think there's just a lot of rich material here. Thank you, Sophie, you know, for showing up on this episode with such brilliant things to talk about. It was great to connect with you. Hopefully we get to speak again sometime. Massive thanks to another Sophie, Sophie Miller, who is an editor and producer on this show. Massive thanks to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for audience audio and video edits and sound and video design and animation for us on YouTube. Massive thanks to Yoni Wolf and the band why? For our theme music and soundtrack. And thanks to all of you for listening until we speak again. Stay pepped up.
- [59:38]
Sophie Yanow
That finale of the Bachelor was ridiculous. Lest we forget, this past season of Love is blind. I know. At least there's always sex in the city to keep us warm and fuzzy at night. Always watching it back 25 years later has been the best. Mm. Why are we so obsessed with watching people fall in love on tv? Every week on our podcast, two black girls, one rows, we break down your favorite TV shows centering modern dating, love, and relationships. Come ready to unpack the mess and have a laugh with us. I'm Justine. And I'm Natasha. See you every week on all podcast platforms.
- [60:10]
Andy J. Pizza
Okay, the podcast is over, so I don't know why you're still listening, but I am glad that you enjoyed it enough to stick to the end. I have one more thing for you. If you're in a place where you're feeling a lack of clarity and you want to figure out your industry market and niche and find the perfect strategic side project to do next, go sign up to our newsletter@andyjpizza.substack.com and you will get a confirmation email that will give you the download of our Creative Career Path handbooklet. And the whole process is in there. And you might also get a few bonuses in there depending on when you sign up. But again, thanks for listening. Glad you enjoyed the episode and stay pepped up, y'all.