← Creative Pep Talk
Creative Pep Talk
557 - Finding Your Scene, IRL Creativity, the Hopeful Return of Indie / DIY with Hanif Abdurraqib
01:03:37
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- [00:01]
A
This is not an ad, it's a gift. I'm going to be at the Icon Illustration Conference this year in July doing a handful of different things and I asked them if they could give me a discount for the listeners of the show because I would love to see you there and hang out at the after parties and whatnot. And they let me have a hundred dollar discount to share with you, which is just so generous and so awesome. If you're an illustrator, I highly recommend going to Icon. It's been a magical experience the times that I've gone. Even the first time in 2014 that I went, it was a very scary leap, but so worth it. Go to icon icon.creativepeptalk.com to learn more. The discount is automatically applied to that link. Icon.creativepeptalk.com Hope to see you there. Do you have a sense that you've got some genius? You just don't know where it's hiding? Maybe you feel like your work just feels like everything everyone else is doing, or you just can't seem to break through or find that kind of sweet spot? I this episode is a deep dive into the where. Where is it hiding? Into the sweet spot, the actual spot, which is your local scene. This is an unexpected, often overlooked but essential part of creative practice is how do you soak up where you are and how do you let it influence your work and how do you get connected to people and in your local geographic area so that you can utilize like the uniqueness of your experience. Right now, so much stuff on the Internet is just looking the same because most of us are spending our time on the Internet, consuming on the Internet, creating for the Internet and it's all becoming very similar. And so today on the show I have Hanif Abdurraqib, who is a legend of a culture critic and writer and he happens to just live in Columbus and he is the winner of the MacArthur genius grant. And so he can speak to this idea of where the genius is hiding. And so much of his genius seems to be rooted in the fact that he's from Columbus. So many of his books are coming from that perspective. He's constantly pulling from that. And he's just someone who I consider to be very grounded in place in a way that I struggle to be sometimes. And so I ask him about that. We dive deep into the where, the scene, the place, because his new podcast, new video podcast called Living for the city, it's on YouTube, but it's also on all the podcast apps as an audio podcast it's all about how music scenes start up. And the first season is about Detroit and they explore Motown and hip hop and techno and the and the way that that scene was defined by that. And so I was super pumped to talk to him about this. I want to get better at this. I want to learn how to be more rooted here. The ways that I have done that have made a huge impact on my creative practice. And so that's the plan. We're going to dive into that. We also do an ADHD round which is a new thing I'm doing where I just kind of rapid fire in a slow kind of way, different random topics and so that keeps it interesting and it was really fun to do that. We talk about mixtapes, video games, metaphors. I will be back at the end to bring you the cta, the call to adventure. Something you can do with the stuff from this episode. It's called fam art. You heard that right? It's not fan art, it's fam art. And it's a way to put some of this place this grounded in place genius that we talk about in this episode to practice. So stick around for that. But for now enjoy this fantastic in person chat with the great Hanif Abdurraqib. Creative Journey.
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B
It's easy to get lost, but don't worry, you'll lift off.
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A
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B
Thank you.
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A
I just finished There's Always this Year and I had one question that probably everybody's wondering, which is what are the Boyz II Men songs that you really do like?
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B
They are few and far between. I like this song called Four Seasons of Loneliness.
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A
Great song. I can see that there's kind of big. Yeah, yeah, I could see that it's
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B
very corny, but I think they do a good job of carrying it. You know, I think End of the Road is nice. Yeah, the music video is very funny, but the song is nice.
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A
Yeah. Still falls into that begging pleading category. But yeah, I like.
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B
I mean I'm harsh about their body work, but I do like the first record. I think like Cooley High Harmony is an interesting record that I think has really aged well too. I think a lot of their work after that has not aged as well. Yeah, I think Cool. The High Harmony is actually a good record that still sounds a little bit Cutting edge.
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A
Yeah. They were kind of mashing up a few different things that really came together in an interesting way.
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B
Yeah. I mean, it seems like on that first record, they were trying to experiment with several sounds to find out who they were or could be. And to me, that's such a good use of a debut album. And it's why I think a lot of debut albums intrigue me because. Well, maybe not so much now. Now it feels like the debut album is something that arrives to us a little more polished.
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A
Right. You're not seeing them, like, experiment. It's more. Maybe a team is kind of put together almost.
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B
Yeah. I felt like in the 90s when I was coming up, you would have some weird things on. On debut albums or some interesting approaches. And I think so Cooley High Harmony is probably the one that. That ages nicely for me, I feel.
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A
Yeah. I feel like evolution, to me is a weird one because it. Very weird is so kind of not hype in any way after what they came out with too. Like, I just can't really understand. I like it, but I don't really know what they were thinking.
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B
It's a little too ballad heavy, I think.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Which, you know, I think when you have that many singers in one group, the ballad is really a way to give everyone a voice that makes sense, you know, because you can have the, like, Mike McCray, the deep voice interlude, and you can have Sean and Wang Ye playing off each other in a way that you don't always get in a more uptempo, even, like, richly harmonized song like Vibing or something like that.
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A
Yeah, but that's probably my favorite one.
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B
I really do like Vibing. Yeah. The remix of Vibing I remember from when I was a kid. Cause it had all those rappers on. It had like, Met the Man and Busta Rhymes and LL Cool J. And I remember the music video where they're like in a boxing ring, you know? But the ballad suits what they are as a group. But I think their ballads are really grating to me. Not because of the vocal ability, the vocal talents there. I actually just think they're poorly written and strangely constructed most often. And they follow a formula that, you know, once you've heard it once you've heard it a lot.
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A
Yeah, that makes sense. And they were kind of written for the radio in a particular way. Yeah. So I have other things to talk to you about other than points to me. But I was going to ask you, are you familiar with the term Scenius?
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B
No.
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A
Okay. So Scenius is Something that I think Brian Eno is the person who coined it. It's just the genius of a scene rather than like a lone genius.
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B
For sure.
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A
And I wondered if that is what you're kind of looking at with this new podcast.
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B
Sure. I mean, in some ways I'm very allergic to the idea of a singular, highly individualized genius.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Because it then relies on rarity or the insistence upon rarity. Say that this is a once in a generation, singular person who came from nowhere and when they are gone, there will be a void that no one can fill.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And so I think about this when it comes to all forms of art making, but particularly when I think about music scenes, because I grew up on a very tight knit music scene and I know that the machinery of a music scene just doesn't come out of nowhere.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And it takes a level of sacrifice for the greater good of community, which I do think is a genius trait to me. I think the traits of actual genius are operating against individualism and. And asking, what can I sacrifice for the greater good of someone else? What do I have that I can maybe pass on to a peer or an entire other generation to keep the nature of what I believe in propelled in this place I love. So Detroit's a very interesting place to hone in on when it comes to that because so much of the musical infrastructure there exists because people witnessed something and then built something and then did not through that building, close the gates. Which is why, you know, you have techno artists, for example, in Detroit who are still borrowing from the infrastructure of Motown. And you know, Motown itself was borrowing from the blues and John Lee Hooker and how they kind of. It's all about kind of carving out a physical space, you know. And so, yes, Hitsville and all that, but there was also like Techno Row where all these techno artists had home studios just in the same street.
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A
Yeah.
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You know, so there's a way that Detroit, I think, operates in this multi generational sense of generosity where people. You can just look out on the music that was made and you can tell that people were interested and invested in not gatekeeping and offering something to someone else who might come after and who might come after and who might come after.
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A
Yeah. And when you said rarity right at the start, are you saying like that it's making it seem like even creativity is rare?
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B
Well. Or the heights that someone can reach in the pursuit of their own creative practice is rare.
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A
Right.
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B
And I just don't believe that because there's been an abundance of brilliance, you Know, so it strikes me and it feels important to me to kind of point in direction and say, what about this thing? What about this thing? What about. You know, one of the things I did when making living for the city in Detroit was I went to the Detroit Institute for the Arts, which is a high school, right? And I got to watch high school like 16 year olds, 17 year olds, 15 year olds making their own techno beats on these little machines that they had. That was a class, you know, it was like a class, you know, that's cool. And it was. It was incredible class. And the work they were making was brilliant. It was impressive. And it reminded me that if we believe that geniuses, if genius is a thing that is siloed and actually only beneficial if it can be monetized or beneficial, if it can be, you know, if someone can gain something from it, that we're really missing out on all the tendrils of genius, including our young people who are operating in a form of real freedom, I think, like genius that is brought on by a sense of real freedom. And so it was everywhere in Detroit, as it is in many places.
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A
I actually didn't ask you this because of this reason, but as you're speaking, I'm thinking, wonder if you've thought a lot about genius because of getting the MacArthur genius grant. Have you? Has it? How is that? Has it weighed on you? Have you? I'm just curious because I can't imagine being in your shoes with this, but as you're speaking so eloquently about it, I'm like, I wonder if you've already given this some thought.
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B
I think I probably have inherently. I mean, I don't think that MacArthur weighs on me a lot, but it does. One thing it does do is I think if you, if people believe you individually to be a genius, then at least for me, my impulse has to. Has been to seek genius elsewhere in as many corners as possible and then point people to it. Not to draw attention away from me necessarily, but to say, you are fooling yourself if you think that I am the only one not. I'm not even the only one in the city I live in. I'm not even the only one on the side of the city I live in. Right.
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A
And so
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if there is one benefit to people looking at you and believing for whatever reason that you have some quote unquote, genius to offer, it's that you can then become a vessel to many other portals of genius that are not yourself.
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A
Right, yeah, that makes sense. So this is like, I Don't even. I really don't know how to ask this question. So because I can't formulate it, I'm. I'm hoping you can kind of maybe help me with this. I'll give you the context of this thought. I was listening to some playlist of yacht rock and I was thinking, like, I get really interested in. Even when I'm watching older movies or listening to older music. I'm really curious about why did this sound good to the people that liked it? Not to insult it, but just because it sounds alien to me, really, you know, the more you think about it, the more it's like. Or I was listening to hall and Oates and just thinking, I cannot imagine this coming on for the first time. No context. And being like, yes, just because it's so. It's just so different to culturally what, you know, where I'm at in this moment. And I'm kind of curious if you, as you're going to look at, like, place and its role in a scene and the music, if you. With Detroit, even like techno and hip hop and Motown, if you're getting a sense of the context of why this sounded right to those people as they were making it.
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B
Oh, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, I think a lot about the first music video that played on MTV in America at least, was Money for Nothing, Dire Straits. And, you know, I talked to friends who were older than me. I have pals who are significantly older than me or at least a couple decades. And they talk about hearing that for the first time or seeing that song come to life for the first time and how it was altered their lives. You know what I mean? Like, the beginning of Money for Nothing is. And I think about when I was a kid, you know, I was. I was fortunate to have older siblings who were in college at a time that I think was one of the golden eras for college radio. 90s, early mid-90s. It's not the golden era early mid-90s. And I heard stuff. They would bring back stuff from tapes that they recorded and things like this. And so I remember hearing things. I remember hearing Pixies for the first time. I remember the first time. And I don't think it was on one of these tapes, but I do remember the first time I heard Slater Kinney and it, you know, I remember hearing Call the Doctor for the first time. And it changed. I could feel it changing my brain chemistry. Now, if Call the Doctor came out today with the information, the sonic information that I have and have accumulated over the Past two decades plus. I don't know if it would do the same thing. And that's just the way of it. So what I love about talking to particularly the techno artists in Detroit, is that so many of them, because they were on the cutting edge of something that at the time did not really have an archive or a history or a name. In some cases, they were kind of just riding the wave of sound and saying, I'm in search of just. I want to connect a sequence of sounds that feels good to me and I have the machines to do it.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And so I think about techno in this shape and form because it is a machine based practice. And it was made initially in Detroit by really young people, you know, who were not, in most cases, prior to finding techno technicians or practitioners of. Of music theory.
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A
Right, yeah.
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B
Which is why it's one of the great musical stories of a generation. Because these are high school kids, or just kids right out of high school with these machines at their disposal and they're just playing around on them, seeking sound. And when you're doing that, you are saying, I'm pursuing something that is defined by feeling and not necessarily technicality.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And so that is what I love, perhaps. And I think, yeah, I mean, if that were to happen, I don't think that could happen today because we just have so much more sonic information. But I do imagine how it must have felt to realize that you were on the cutting edge of something that you're inventing in real time.
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A
Yeah. Must have felt great.
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B
It must have felt great. And it must have felt great too, for those people who got to hear it in the clubs for the first time. Like hearing, you know, a lot of these, hearing Kevin Saunderson and Juan Atkins and, you know, hearing these folks and Derek May, like all these folks dropping stuff in the club that had to be life altering. And not just in Detroit. I mean, a lot of those guys talk about when they went to Europe and how so much, you know, they received so much better than they were in the States, you know. So I think that's important.
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A
I think the thing that comes to mind after you said that was there's a really interesting thing happening where there's a local scene where something's happening and they're all immersed in it and they're learning from each other. And that there's that and then. Then there's what you described, like when you hear this college radio. I had a very similar experience, like the first time I heard Modest Mouse and a bunch of Seattle stuff when I was in high school. That is, there are very two different things, because one is, like, bubbling up in this place, immersed. You know, you're immersed in this place. And then there's the experience of. I was thinking about comparing that to hall and Oates or yacht rock or whatever. Just thinking there's probably a lot of people that liked it because it was like, I don't know what this is. This is completely foreign to me. And that's what it felt like to me. It felt like alien music the first time I heard it. And that was really, really interesting. So I think that's kind of a weird dynamic. And then the other piece that comes to mind, though, is like the homogenation of culture because we all hear all the same stuff. Like, do you think that, like, what you're learning or experiencing with this place, related creativity and seeing thing. Are you instantly thinking, like, this is just impossible now?
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B
I don't think it's impossible now. And it's only because, you know, Detroit's such a. Much like Columbus to me. I mean, a lot of places are, but Detroit's. I know Motown is massively popular, but a lot of the other music out of Detroit is incredibly. I mean, it's an incredibly underground music city.
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A
Right.
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B
In a real, real sense of the word. I would say, yes, all cities have an underground if there are enough people in it making things. But Detroit's primary mode of music making is very underground.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And there's almost like a. To me, it doesn't feel like a barrier. I wonder if some of the artists there think it's a barrier. But there's a point, there's almost a threshold where it's like, you get to this point and then if you go above it, you're a little bit too far above the underground, which maybe offers a lot of career advancement, but less creative. And why I say it's not a burden. I don't see it as a burden is because what Detroit's doing in the underground is so expansive. And so you're not necessarily dealing with height or ascension. You're dealing with a really broad width. Right. And that feels possible to me still. I mean, if you look at Detroit, there aren't one thing that. That stunned me as I was doing this. You know, one of the people I interviewed said this thing like, well, we have such an incredible rap music scene, but we've only had about two rappers really blow up on a national scale, on a global scale.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, I think I would imagine they were talking about, of course, eminem and Big Shot. And I had a moment where I was like, oh gosh, that's so. That's true. However, some of the best rap music of my lifetime has come out of Detroit. Come out of Detroit underground scene. And it's come out of, you know, these folks like Danny Brown and, you know, Black Milk and Slum Village and DEJ Loaf. I mean there are. It's an incredibly robust rap community. And of course, you know, Dilla, I think, ascended to a really high height and would have kept descending, but I believe that is functionally something that is still accessible. Columbus still has a really vibrant underground music scene. The problem is there feels like there's a heightened anxiety around immediate success with a lot of artists. I know when I was coming up, I came up on the punkin hardcore scenes in the Midwest. And importantly, I came up at this time in the early 2000s, which. What happened in the early 2000s, as some people might remember, there was kind of like the second pop punk boom, you know, and the most profitable probably because you had guys who were in heavier, more hardcore bands veering slightly into more emo pop punk bands because bands are just getting absurd contracts. Right?
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A
What kind of bands are you talking about?
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B
I mean, the one that. Because of the. We're in the Midwest. I think about those Chicago bands thinking about like Fall Out Boy Academy is. Yeah, that's what kind of rise against even. Yeah, bands that I like, you know, But I remember like Killing Tree and Arma Angelus and a lot of these bands that those guys were in that did not sound necessarily like the bands that they were. Race Trader for sure did not sound like the bands they, they got successful in. But what I'm mostly saying is you also didn't have the Internet, right? Or you did, but not in the same way.
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A
It was a different, different Internet.
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B
You might have message boards, you had these things. So there wasn't this sense of constant competition. Because the guys I knew in bands all throughout the Midwest, it's not like they were looking at Fall Out Boy and saying, well, how can we just do what Fall Out Boy just did? It was kind of like. And in some ways it was a reverse thing. It was like, how do we dig our heels even further into maintaining whatever underground credibility is at this stage? Because we don't want to quote, unquote, sell out. Yeah, I don't know if that. The pressure to quote unquote, not sell out is almost non existent now. Which, to be clear, I don't think it's bad.
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A
Right. Yeah.
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B
But it does create this pressure about success that I do think can hinder the underground. But I'm fortunate to realize that in almost every. I travel a lot and in almost every city I'm in, there's a house show happening somewhere, there's something happening in a basement or a garage. And I'm really moved and uplifted by that because it is not that much different than what it was like for me as a 19 year old in. In here, in this city, in Detroit, in Pittsburgh, Dayton, Chicago, et cetera.
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A
Do you feel like that ethos is on the rise? It feels a little bit like that to me. I can't tell really, but it feels like almost like a lot of this underground stuff really became commercially successful, celebrated by the mainstream. A lot of the publications that used to cover that really started covering the mainstream exclusively. Yeah. I can't tell if we're feeling pushback from maybe quote, unquote, selling out is starting to be less cool than it was for a decade.
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B
Well, I think it's. You mentioned the monoculture. It's kind of like monochromatic culture.
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A
Yeah.
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B
The underground acts in opposition to that. And so anytime I think, where the dominant cultures veer too hard into one dominant culture, which is not. It's happened at other points in my life. The. The volume and velocity of it happening right now, I think is a little bit higher and faster than it has been. But it's. You know, I remember particularly growing up loving hip hop and knowing a lot about hip hop. I remember the, like, the really hard snapback that came in around the mid 2000s, after the hyper commercialization of the late 90s, early 2000s, where it seemed like people woke up one day and was like, well, this is corny. I can't believe we did this for so long. This is corny. And now we're going to make, quote, unquote, backpack rap a little more mainstream.
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A
Right.
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B
I think it ends with.
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A
What were the rappers, do you think, in that time? I'm just trying to place it. Is it. I've heard you talk about like Nelly and like that kind of thing. Yeah.
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B
Quite frankly, I. I mean, I love
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A
Nelly at the time.
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B
I liked Nelly at the time I thought, you know, or I liked. I liked the first St. Lunatics record. I thought the Country Grammar record was fine. Anything beyond that, I thought Nellyville was like really bad. Except for we all love Dilemma. We all really love Dilemma. But not to veer us off track, but I will say what I did love about that era of rap in Nelly, specifically, I want to say it was cool to have a guy. And when that same Lunatics record came out, which I still love, I still think Free City's a very good album.
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A
I know we're both Murphy Lee fans.
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B
Huge Murphy Lee fan.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I think Murphy Lee.
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A
I've heard you say this, but I had the exact same experience. I thought he was gonna blow up.
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B
I mean, absolutely.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Murphy Lee is a great example of. And you know Murphy Lee. Well. Okay, I'm gonna say two things really quick.
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A
Yeah.
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B
One, it was cool to see these guys from St. Louis who were, like, deeply saint. I remember I had not been to St. Louis when, say, Country Grammar came out, but I was there, like, two years after. And I remember driving through St. Louis and being like, this does feel exactly like the Country Grammar music video, you know? And it was kind of cool to have these guys who were animating this place in the same way that, like, Outkast animated Atlanta for me in the early mid-90s, where they made Atlanta feel like this mystical, magical, otherworldly place. And that colored my response to it when I first went there, and it was really beautiful. And the same way that, like, UGK did that for me with Texas, you know, parts of Texas, Houston, Smithly. Yeah. You know, Murphy Lee is interesting because there's this story, and I don't know how accurate this is, but, you know, the St. Lunatics were a thing before Country Grammar came out.
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A
Right.
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B
You know, and there's this line like,
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A
Nelly was in that group.
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B
Nelly was like, in the group. And then what happened was recording. And, yeah, they have a record. They have a mixtape called who's the Boss? That came out in 90. Gosh, eight maybe. And what happened, as so happens in collectives, is like someone plucked one out and said, I think you're gonna be the star. And I don't know what the hook gonna be. Murphy Lee, like a single from 2000. What? 4. He has that line in the second verse. It's like, we were broke with no deal, but nobody could tell. So we did what we had to do for Country Grammar to sell, which is like. And I've heard the thing of Murphy Lee was supposed to be the one.
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A
Oh, really?
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B
That was plucked out. He was going to be plucked out of the. But. But Nelly, you know, it was like, this guy will make y' all money. He will be the one in the agreement. Is the agreement, right? Country Grammar gets big. He brings them along, and they come out with Free City. But it really hit. I think it really hindered Murphy Lee's career.
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A
Yeah, seems like it.
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B
Because his album was fine. And, you know, I know he was on, like, Shake your Tail Feather and, like, hits and all that, but he's a very good rapper. Yeah, and I don't think he's very good.
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A
He's got a lot of charisma and interesting guy.
- [30:34]
B
Yeah, Nelly's a better hit maker maybe.
- [30:37]
A
Right.
- [30:39]
B
But you see that this happens all the time where a rapper gets big and then they bring their crew along, and then you realize in the crew that there's a better rapper than the rapper who got big. Think about, like, Lloyd Banks, you know, like, Lloyd Banks is a, I think, significantly better rapper than 50 Cent, but maybe not, as he doesn't have the narrative, he doesn't have the charisma. He doesn't have the kind of particularly early career 50 Cent, this magnetism that made him almost like a rap supervillain, you know, before it got corny. But that's kind of the way. That's the way it goes.
- [31:12]
A
So I like that you brought up St. Louis and Atlanta and all this, too, because the reason I wanted to go this angle is we have all these creatives listening to the show. And I think it took me a long time to. I'm not from Ohio, but I've lived here longer than I've lived anywhere else. I've lived here for 12 years. And I'm from the Midwest. I'm from Indiana, but it took me a long time to, like, own being Midwestern. And like, it took me, like, I. Do you know the band Y?
- [31:41]
B
Oh, of course.
- [31:42]
A
Okay. So I'm a huge Y fan. I've done a bunch of merge for them and kind of became friends with them over time. And they did my. A little. We had a segment of their song for the intro of the show from early days, but it took me until hearing Jack Antonoff do Mike Birbiglia's theme song for his podcast would be like, oh, this sounds right. Because they're owning the New Jersey thing. They're owning where they're from. And then that's when I license, like 10 songs. And so now it's all Y music on the show, and I'm just like, all in. And I feel like you are very well known for being a Columbus writer, and I think all of this is just interesting and encouraging to all these artists throughout the world that are listening and seeing what's happening on the Internet and wanting to be a part of that rather than wanting to be who they are and where they came from. And so I'm just curious if you. I'm just. I'm curious if you have thought about what makes you a Columbus writer and an Ohio writer, a Midwestern writer. I mean, I know you have, but. But how do you think about what that means and, like, how your context feeds into the scene that you work in? Because are you also. Do you feel connected to other writers in the area and. Yeah. Like, how did you just instinctively know to kind of root yourself in Columbus when. I don't know how you feel, but Columbus doesn't. People don't necessarily know that it is a scene or has a vibe or. Does that make sense?
- [33:20]
B
Sure.
- [33:20]
A
Yeah.
- [33:21]
B
Well, I will say it's funny, you know, I was a lonely kid who got lost on the Internet at a different time. And it was freeing and informative for me. And the thing that bums me out now is that to be young and be lost on the Internet now is certainly a lot more treacherous.
- [33:38]
A
Yeah. Different thing.
- [33:39]
B
Not that it was the safest haven in the world when I was a teen, but it was.
- [33:42]
A
Our parents didn't know what was on the Internet either. True. We had this other thing going on. Yeah.
- [33:46]
B
But I do remember, like, I was on message boards and I remember, you know, I was such a Ann Roman, such a technical music nerd type, that I was on this record collector's message board when I was like, 15, and I would lie about my age. I think I told people I was like, 45, you know, because I wanted them to take me seriously. So there was a way that being on the Internet informed my living as a young person, that I think that informed my living in healthy ways and informed my dreaming and my imagination. And the thing that bums me out now is that, like, that is not happening. I work with young writers and I'm around young people, and I can say for a fact it's just not happening the same way now in terms of Columbus. I grew up on the east side of Columbus, situated in between Bexley and Whitehall. Neighborhood that wasn't the best. Somewhat neglected. And my friends and I would ride our bikes. We couldn't really go past the borders of our neighborhood, so we couldn't go into Bexley. And I remember distinctly one of my friends, parents warning us about going into Bexley. Right. And warning us about going too far into white.
- [34:54]
A
Like, your parents wouldn't let you go.
- [34:55]
B
Yeah, yeah. You know, and it was interesting to me. As I got older, I started playing soccer, and I played club soccer with some kids from Bexley. And they were like, oh, our parents wouldn't let us cross, you know, Livingston Avenue to come through. So they were talking about, like, their parents being afraid to let us. Let them come in our neighborhood. And it was interesting. Cause I was like, I think we were more afraid of what is happening there than we were here. And it made me think about how I lived in this box. That because I lived in it and because people I loved were in it, it became a kingdom of sorts. And I never knew until I was much older or I had an instinct about it, but I never knew until I was much older that the world outside of my kingdom looked upon that kingdom differently than I did. And that felt like a real betrayal in a way. I remember feeling really enraged by that reality. Not even on some, like, how dare you talk about my people this way? But in a way where I felt to my core that this was a place that defined me and the people in it defined me. And they were noble people and worthy of close attention and affection. And as I got older and began writing, I really committed myself to building a language around returning some dignity to this place, specifically East Columbus, because I saw it as a very. And I still see it as a very dignified place filled with very dignified people. And I just remember that initial rage that I felt when I realized that someone who was on the outside of this was saying, like my parents said, we can't go there because it's not safe. Where the flip side of that, my parents would say, look at that nice neighborhood. You would be a target there. That's a different kind of math, right? And so I think I, of course, feel kinship. I really am proud to be from East Columbus because there's a lineage of artists who come out of East Columbus who I'm so honored to be in just eternal conversation with the Amina Robinson Wall, Neal Smokey Scott woods, who's my first and earliest and still present mentor, Richard Dewart Brown. I mean, these are people who have used the east side of Columbus as a canvas and have expanded it and who I think teach me new ways to honor it in their work. And so, yeah, I mean, I think so much of a real downside, another downside to any kind of monoculture or a monochromatic way of life is that the places people live are treated increasingly as disposable. Now, I lived in the neighborhood, and a lot of people grew up in neighborhoods where they got to watch gentrification happen all around them, right? And that's one thing. And it's another thing to say. We're just gonna put up the same kind of condo everywhere, the same kind of apartment everywhere. What part of Indiana are you from? You from Indianapolis?
- [38:15]
A
Just south of Indy.
- [38:16]
B
I was in Indianapolis recently and I was like, and I've been to Indianapolis recently. My brother lives there. My niece played basketball out there. I was there a lot. And I went out there maybe for the first time in a year, a few weeks ago, last month maybe. And I was like, it's a bunch of condos. They all look the same. And I go to a lot of cities and I'm like, this can't be the way that people are forced to live because all of the defining entities that make a place individualized for a young person who wants to dream cannot be stripped down to this monochromatic gray, high rise type of thing. And so I really think that the work of. I can't say what the work of all creatives is, but at least the work of my mission, and I think the mission of artists I love is a mission of archival to say, I'm going to create things. So Amina Robinson was so great at this. To say, I'm going to create things that remind you the place where your two feet are. It was not always like this. This was a different place in a different time. And that place was loved by really dignified people who tried to keep it the same and who tried to preserve it for you. And the fact that they could not, the fact that we're standing in front of a gray condom now is not a failure of those dignified people. It's a failure of the imagination of a city. Or it's a failure of an imagination of a government. It's a failure of the imagination of this industry of cities building for populations that don't exist and doing it at the expense of populations that are already there. And if there's anything creatives can do, it is to really sound the alarm of Archive and say, what you see is not always what it was.
- [40:18]
A
This episode is sponsored by Squarespace. I freaking love having Squarespace as a sponsor because it's easy to sell it when you love something this much. I'm a big fan. Squarespace is an all in one website platform designed to help you succeed online. Here's what I love about Squarespace. They're intuitive and super versatile. Drag and drop tools mean you can make a custom website without knowledge of code. That makes people say, whoa, who made that for you? Looks like you built that from scratch. People have really said stuff like that to me about my site and I built it myself quite easily with Squarespace. You can check it out@andijpizza.com if you want to check that out what I did with it and it doesn't look templatey and it screams my creative brand. I also love that I have all of my domains through Squarespace now, which makes it seamless and easy to manage. I know the first thing as creative folks do when we get an idea is to grab that URL. Now you can keep track of all your websites and your domains in one place. That's super intuitive and easy to manage. Head to squarespace.com pep talk for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use promo code PEP Talk all one word to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. I could really use your help now. As a rule I try to give way way more on this show than I take, but every once in a while I have an ask. I think it's been about three years since my last big ask when we launched me and Sophie's book Invisible Things and now its companion Mysterious Things is on its way and we could really really use your help by buying a book and spreading the word. Pre orders can make or break a book success. If you can launch a book with momentum, it has a chance to get into people's hands. And we really, really want to get this book into kids hands because it was written to ignite kids curiosity to get them curious about our mysterious universe. And I don't know about you, but I am hoping this next generation is curious, open, full of wonder and engaged and excited about living life on this planet. If you pre order from our local bookshop Bertie Books, you can get a copy that is signed by me and Soph. There's also a bunch of links to everywhere else. You can get the book at InvisibleThings Co and by the way, I'm doing some talks to virtual groups, schools, companies and conferences in exchange for what's called a pre order book buy AKA buying copies for your group or the attendees. So if you've ever wanted to book me to speak, this is the least expensive it'll ever be. Write to me@hi dj pizza.com and I can walk you through how that works. If you love my art, this is one of my favorite collections of paintings that I've ever made. If you loved Invisible Things, you're gonna love Mysterious Things. And if you have children, nieces, nephews, students or friends with kids in your life, ignite their Curiosity with mysterious things. Pre order at InvisibleThings Co or click the link in the show notes. Thank you so much for your help. We really, really, really appreciate one of the reasons we. It's not one of the reasons we live in Columbus, but it was one of the little, like, try not to put too much weight into synchronicity. But I am kind of persuaded that way. When my wife and I, who's British, who I met living over there, went on our first date, she brought a book that she just got from the library. She's a big fan of this textile artist. Because she's a textile artist. My wife is, and she brought this book to her first date. And it was a book, An Amina Robinson book.
- [43:51]
B
Yeah.
- [43:51]
A
And she was just showing me it and, like, geeking out about it. And when we came to visit here, I was doing a talk at ccad. She went over with the kids to the cma and that was the same book that they had right at the front desk. And we were like, all right, that's. You know, There was like 10 other reasons, but that was one. That was one an amazing artist and very, very inspiring and has done all kinds of things in this city. So I wanted to ask, did you. Did you always feel this kind of dedication to Columbus and where you're from and mixing that with your work, or was there a time where you didn't feel like that? Because I know you haven't always lived here.
- [44:37]
B
I lived in New Haven for two years. Yeah.
- [44:39]
A
Yeah.
- [44:39]
B
But I didn't know any other way to be. You know, my earliest writing people like, how did you get your start? It's funny, growing up on the punk scene, particularly in the early aughts, mid aughts, zines were like. I know zines have made a really robust comeback and have been. I think the things happening with zines right now, it's actually really heartening and very cool for me. I went. I went to a zine fest recently in L. A and I was like, this is what. So happy to have this now. And if I had this, like, 20 years ago, it'd be mind blowing.
- [45:10]
A
Yeah.
- [45:11]
B
Because when I was coming up, there were zines, but not a lot of people want to write in them. They were mainly, at least in the Midwest punk scene, that I was on visual experiences like art photography, which is also great. But I was like, gosh, you know, the interesting thing that I enjoyed about being on the Midwest punk scene back then is that a lot of these scenes were interconnected. You know, I. My Punk's friends in Detroit were. We're like portals to that city. And then my punk friends in Chicago, and we would sometimes converge in the same place, but. And it seemed to me that someone had to do the reporting from where they were, you know, to say, this band came to Columbus and you weren't there, but I want to write something that makes you feel like you were there. So that was my earliest foray into writing, which felt like an act of service.
- [45:55]
A
Right. It was connected to Columbus, connected to
- [45:57]
B
the city from the start. Right. And really did feel like an act of service in that. I don't know if I would have done it if I couldn't say, I want to tell the story of this place I'm at, you know, so I've always felt that way. I think because of that, my starting point was I'm in this place where something is happening and you're not there. And I want you to believe that it's worth dreaming about arriving to.
- [46:20]
A
Do you recognize that it's different than what a lot of other writers do? I don't feel like I know some writers place as a huge thing, but, yeah, it just seems unique to you. And it also. It's unique also because, you know, you don't get a lot of people out of Columbus at the level that you are writing right now. So it's just kind of. I guess I ask too, because I'm like. I'm trying to think of people listening and thinking of how they might resist if they were from a place like Columbus. Owning that. I feel like in a lot of ways, I see a lot of artists that are trying to, like, hide where they're from so that they could appear like they're on the coast or in the big cities or whatever. So, yeah, I'm just trying to figure out if there's anything that you could kind of teach us about that.
- [47:11]
B
Oh, gosh, yeah. It's such a highly individualized thing. I mean, everyone's relationship with places is unique, and mine is not without its complications. I mean, you know. You know, I've been like activist and organizer type in this city for a long time, since I was like a teenager. And so in many ways, I've spent as much time writing glowingly about this place as I have, like, in the streets, shouting about it, you know.
- [47:38]
A
Right.
- [47:38]
B
And perhaps that is. I think that is a healthy ecosystem, you know, because my affection for this place is born out of and through an ideal that the city does not live up to. And I believe it can at Least in some ways. I think having some level of displeasure about where you're from is actually propulsive. Or it can be propulsive.
- [48:02]
A
Yeah. I think that's a good point.
- [48:04]
B
So often I think our displeasures kind of outweigh our pursuits of artistic endeavor. And that's why I think people, or they feel like they cannot physically be in a place and make things. I'm lucky in that I can't. I do make my best work here.
- [48:19]
A
Yeah.
- [48:20]
B
I think that's maybe uncommon for a lot of artists. I know.
- [48:22]
A
Right.
- [48:24]
B
And to me, that makes sense.
- [48:25]
A
Right.
- [48:25]
B
I don't know if it'll always be the case, but I hope it is. I want to be here. You know, I'm at a point in my life where, you know, I saw a friend in New York recently, and she was like, you know, I love that you're still in Columbus, for sure. Why don't you split time somewhere? Right. Yeah. And I was like, why would I split time? And she was like, my guy, you're not. You're gone half the year anyway.
- [48:49]
A
Yeah.
- [48:49]
B
You know.
- [48:49]
A
True. Yeah.
- [48:50]
B
Which is true. I mean. Yeah, this year has been a bit heavier on the travel front than normal. But it's May. We're recording this at the end of May, middle of May, and I've only been home in terms of consecutive weeks to.
- [49:05]
A
Yeah.
- [49:05]
B
You know, and so there's a way that I feel pulled right now for something to ground me somewhere. I'm often joking that I would like fewer jobs than just one job, you know?
- [49:18]
A
Yeah.
- [49:19]
B
Ohio State, if you're listening. You hire me to do something.
- [49:21]
A
Yeah.
- [49:21]
B
I'll stay here more often.
- [49:23]
A
They got a lot of roles.
- [49:24]
B
Yeah.
- [49:25]
A
They got all kinds of departments.
- [49:26]
B
I could just be like a guy on campus maybe. Probably not. Actually, it's not. I don't know if that would work out. But, you know, I am thinking about ways to ground myself here with some more frequency.
- [49:37]
A
So this is a new thing I'm doing. So I'm adhd, and I'm just going to do an ADHD round. So it's just going to be. It's not necessarily rapid fire. It's just going to be a collection of different things. The first thing I was going to ask you about. Do you. So a lot of my work, whether it's picture books or doing storytelling on stage or whatever, is analogy and metaphor and that sort of thing. And I know. I was just wondering if you think a lot about how the artist is exploring the space between two things, because you. Everything you do seems to be doing that, like, sure. What do you make of that?
- [50:13]
B
Well, for me, I'm not just interested in the space between the two things, but the distance and what exists in the distance between the two of them. So much of this is my poetic brain, I think, where I'm trying to. One of my favorite poems in history is this poem called Dead Doe by the poet Lucy Brock Bruido, wherein at the beginning of the poem, her and her daughter. The speaker and her daughter are like looking at roadkill. And it looks like a dead deer. And then by the time the poem ends, they realize that they've been looking at two swans. And all of these movements happen in the middle of the poem that transforms the image. And so I'm interested in the transformation of image or the transformation of what I can do in the one lap between one thing and another thing to make the reader and myself, I think, believe that they have been transformed through the witnessing of something else. Transforming that is really the peak of. It's like a magic trick, you know, I'm obsessed with the thing of. You know, you see a bird and it goes away, and then you bring back the bird, but the bird is slightly different.
- [51:17]
A
Okay, so are you thinking of that as you're writing your books? You're thinking like, this is the transformation that I'm going to show?
- [51:25]
B
Well, I always think that I. The fortunate thing for me is I never know what the transformation is until I start pursuing it.
- [51:32]
A
Like, writing it.
- [51:33]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think a lot of writers don't work this way, but I'm a big time. I just don't believe in forcing, putting my will upon language. I really want to be transformed by the pursuit of language. It's like this weekend was the 60th anniversary of PET Sounds, the Beach Boys record.
- [51:50]
A
Yeah.
- [51:51]
B
And what I love about the Pet Sound sessions, where you can hear the making of Pet Sounds, is that Brian Wilson is not really imposing his will on these songs, even though these are rigorous, highly structured compositions. He is just trying as many things as possible to get to a sound that he can hear in his head, that he can't really translate to anyone else in the room. And he doesn't really know what's happening until he hears the thing. You know, that's how we get the inverted bass line on God Only Knows and. And all these things that he was in pursuit of. I think writing for me has to be similar where I'm not looking to impose my will on language. I'm asking the language. I'm really just Saying, I'm sitting down and I'm gonna start writing, and I wanna be shown a path different than the one that I'm on right now. And as it stands, the language has done that for me so far.
- [52:36]
A
So when you were writing something like, there's always this year. And are you going into it thinking, I'm gonna explore basketball, but I don't know what is gonna come from it? Essentially, yeah.
- [52:47]
B
I mean, the proposal for that book was just like, I think I want to write about LeBron James and here's an essay on He Got Game. And when I sat down and write it, it became a lot different. I mean, it became a meditation on mortality and place and time. And my father and I would have never come to any of those conclusions had I just said, this is going to be a LeBron James book. Which I don't even know what that means, but I'm thankful for that. I'm thankful for not knowing where I'm going to go until the language arrives.
- [53:21]
A
Keeps it interesting as you're working. Yeah, I mean, that's my biggest problem, is that I'm more of a plotter. And so I kind of have an idea of what I want to do with it. And the biggest problem with that, as someone with adhd, is the executive function of now. You just have to carry out what you already know. Like, that's not very interesting. That's tough. So I'm trying to find a better balance of that. I also just want to say I really appreciated reading this book. As someone who grew up in Indiana. We grew up in a similar time, I think, and I can't play. But my dad, all my, my. Both my brothers and my dad are basketball obsessed. My younger brother's name is Jordan, after Michael Jordan. They're just, they're crazy basketball people. So I grew up around it all the time, going to Pacer games, all that kind of thing. And so it's just really interesting to look at it through a completely different lens than pure athleticism or fandom. So anyway, I just really, really appreciate that. It was cool because I had all this knowledge forced on me. And so I know all these names and I know a lot of the story, but it was really interesting. Second in the ADHD category is what video games do you play.
- [54:32]
B
Yeah. So right now, because I've been so busy, I'm only playing sports based games.
- [54:37]
A
Okay.
- [54:38]
B
That's not my preferred mode. Yeah. But I do like, because it gives you a firm. Like if I'm playing mlb, the show, for example, it's like, I know I can get through like, 10 games in 30 minutes. Playing the show mode.
- [54:51]
A
Yeah.
- [54:52]
B
If I'm playing NBA 2K. So I'll set the quarters to eight minutes. And here's how much time I have now. Makes sense in the winter when I have more time. I love an open world game. I mean, like, Elden Ring is one of the best.
- [55:02]
A
That's my favorite game of the past five years or whatever. Yeah. It's incredible.
- [55:05]
B
I was talking recently with somebody about the moment that game came out. Like that first week where it felt like everyone was just in the world together. I hadn't had an experience like that since, like a Zelda game. You know what I mean? It was, like, beautiful to me to have this moment where it felt. A moment where. Like a cultural moment. Yeah. Like one of the rare times a monochromatic cultural moment felt good. It was like everyone I know was just in the world of this game. I still love Red Dead. You know, I play it. I never get through it again. I've gotten through it twice. It's a hard, emotional game.
- [55:38]
A
I haven't played it yet, but it's on my list.
- [55:43]
B
But, yeah, I love an open world thing. I love. I had a little list. I ran into somebody in LA recently, was talking to me about, like, Japanese RPGs, and they gave me a list that I. That I wrote down somewhere to get into when I have more time. And I was excited to do that.
- [55:59]
A
If you remember to send it to
- [56:00]
B
me, I would like to know that
- [56:02]
A
my son would like that too. He's about 14, and he's just doing a second run of Elden Ring. And for some reason, this is when it clicked for him. And now he's like, all in. It's really satisfying.
- [56:10]
B
I think this is what I also liked about Elden Ring, personally, was that it actually did not come to me easily.
- [56:15]
A
Right. Me neither.
- [56:15]
B
It didn't come easy at all. It took, like, a lot. But then when it does click, it is really satisfying.
- [56:20]
A
I had people tell me, like, stick with it, knowing what I like. I like Zelda and I like Witcher and I like all the open world stuff. Yeah.
- [56:27]
B
But, yeah, I think it was satisfying, especially because when I'm busy, my. My default is like, I'll just play a sports game. Yeah.
- [56:36]
A
Which.
- [56:36]
B
All those. I mean, I enjoy them, but they do come so easily. I mean, if you grew up playing like any madman. Yeah, they just come like sports games and fighting games. Even if you grew up just like mashing buttons on Killer instinct in Mortal Kombat, you can know your way around Fighting Game. I loved Elden Ring because it was. It was hard.
- [56:51]
A
Yeah, it's hard.
- [56:52]
B
And I was like. It was so hard that I was like, what setting is this on?
- [56:56]
A
I was like, what am I doing? Am I not playing this right? I don't understand. But it's got that acquired taste thing where you're like, oh, now it's extra, extra special.
- [57:03]
B
Yeah, it clicks. I love that. Yeah.
- [57:06]
A
Okay, this is about the mixtape. I heard you talking about something we all did in the 90s, which was make mixtapes from the radio. And I just had the question of first, do you have a song that you particularly remember taping off the radio?
- [57:21]
B
Yes, a song by an artist called Ebony Foster.
- [57:25]
A
Okay.
- [57:25]
B
The song's called Crazy for your. And it was a little known R B single. She's a singer out of Sacramento. Little known R B single from 1997 or 8. And I love the song. It was not an. I mean, it was not a hit at all.
- [57:41]
A
Yeah, I don't know. It.
- [57:42]
B
It was occasionally, if you were someone who like watched the music video shows on BET or maybe play at the end of the late block of one of those. But I loved it. And I would call WVKO and I would call these stations and request it every day because I just wanted it on my tape because I couldn't find the single at the library back then. It just really was not a big song. And so I would call and they would always give me the. Oh, well, if we get to it, if we get to it. If we get to it. And then I remember. And that meant that I, you know, I'd call if I had a. Particularly if I was grounded, which I was. Sometimes I would call in the morning and that meant that I, you know, they said, well, we'll get to it. If we get to it, It'll be before 5. And I would have to sit by the radio all day, you know. And I remember sitting on my bed reading. I was grounded. And I heard the radio DJ getting ready to introduce it and I leapt from my bed and I stepped on a toy car and I was like limping across the room to the radio and I got it just in time.
- [58:48]
A
That's awesome. That's great. If there was a. If you still had to do that now, is there a new song that you would be waiting at the radio for?
- [58:57]
B
I mean, there is a lot, you know, it's hard to imagine because we have access to these. But I also like, yeah. I mean, it would probably be a song that I couldn't get out of my head. There's a song I like called Chai Tea Baby by a band called Good Boy Daisy that I put on a lot of playlists recently.
- [59:14]
A
Yeah.
- [59:14]
B
And I would. I would. It's such an earworm that I would wait all day by the radio for that. Just to get it. Just to have it. I mean, I would need to imagine a world where the access is significantly lesser than it is.
- [59:27]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [59:28]
B
Because even for the most underground stuff that I listen to, I can find it on bandcamper I can get. You know, I would need to imagine a world where I don't have access to. Because I'm thinking about the 90s. It wasn't even the early 2000s Internet. It was like I couldn't find any. It wasn't the Napster peer to peer stuff. I will say that era was interesting to me because the peer to peer stuff, Napster specifically, you could find things. I recently unearthed all my burned CDs and try to digitize them. I mean, like thousands trying to digitize them. And there's stuff on there that like remixes and alternate mixes that you just can't find anywhere.
- [60:03]
A
Yeah.
- [60:04]
B
And that's really beautiful.
- [60:06]
A
I think it's interesting to see you have to be in a certain scenario for this to like, work for you instead of against you. But I like seeing something like Cindy Lee, where you can only listen to it on YouTube or you have to buy it on the app or get the vinyl or whatever. That's kind of an interesting thing. That seems like it's happening more too.
- [60:25]
B
Absolutely.
- [60:26]
A
And that less accessible ends up becoming interesting in a different way.
- [60:30]
B
Far more interesting.
- [60:31]
A
Yeah. Last question. You seem like somebody who. I don't have this. This is a problem for me. I have to be intentional about making life more important than art. And so you seem like somebody who does that. Maybe you don't do it naturally. I don't know. But you seem like somebody who is more grounded than me, I'll say in that way. Do you have any tips for. Because I know when I am able to do that, my art is better, you know, so. Yeah. What can you teach me on that?
- [61:01]
B
I don't. I mean, you're a parent. I'm not a parent, but I.
- [61:03]
A
Right.
- [61:05]
B
And I think because of this, I really revel in this reality I'm in now where so many of my dear friends have kids.
- [61:11]
A
Yeah.
- [61:11]
B
And a lot of them are young and so a lot of them are between the ages of like. Like baby to five or six, you know, and there's a sense of wonder, wonder without irony that is embedded in the mind of a child that age. And I get to spend so much time around young people who just want to tell me things and show me things that are, to me, ordinary. But then when charged with that child's imagination, it becomes extraordinary. And I actually think that makes me realize that I'm so eager to do the life that I have. I'm so eager because is populated so richly by people with more expansive imaginations than I have, constantly wanting to show me things. And sure, selfishly, that feeds my work, but it also just feeds my brain and heart, which in turn feeds my work. And left to my own devices, I would be in the house almost all the time. Right. But I'm so eager to be outside in the universe that my friends have created and their children have created, and that that is a real gift for me.
- [62:27]
A
Yeah, that's a good point. I feel like when my kids were younger, it was more forced upon me because you. They just take so much time and energy. You have to kind of do really tune into that. And now that they're all over 10, it's not as, you know, it takes more intentionality, basically, for sure. Well, thanks for doing this. This was a complete blast. Had such a fun time talking about all this. Tell people the best place to check out the new podcast.
- [62:53]
B
Yeah, Living for the City is wherever you find podcasts. It's also on YouTube. It's surprisingly doing very well on YouTube.
- [62:58]
A
Yeah.
- [62:59]
B
Episode one has way more views than I expected. And, you know, every Wednesday, new episode drops, so hope people check it out. I'm really proud of it.
- [63:10]
A
Yeah, it's a really cool project. Go check it out. We'll also have the links in the show notes for sure.
- [63:14]
B
Thank you.
- [63:14]
A
Thanks, Hanif. All right, I'm back with our cta. It's called FAM Art. Here's the idea. I did this recently. I have become a Columbus Crew fan, a soccer fan, since I've lived in Columbus over the past 11, 12 years. And I love their merch. They have really great style. The stadium, super cool. A lot of cool art happens around this team. And I was like, I want to get involved with this. And so, for the first time in a long time, made some fan art. And it's this design that is like a Warrior Crew cat that has a sword and is smashing a soccer ball that looks like it's become a skull. And I was trying to Design something that would be great for a T shirt just to show my support for the team, put it on the Internet, tag them so that I can get in the mix. And right after that someone commented and was like, hey, you should get connected to the Nordica fan group and maybe some of these could be turned into signs or like huge banners. And so I am going to be pursuing that. And so here is the call to adventure for you. It's fam art, so it's fan art that's for the fam that you want to be part of locally. So is there something that you love about where you're from and where you live that you could make some art to memorialize and celebrate and just put it out there and tag people and get involved? For me, it was just a really great way to instantly get on the radar of this thing that I just love and would love to dive deeper into. So I hope that is something that inspires you and encourages you and excites you. If you do make some of that, feel free to tag me too. Cause I'd love to see it. I want to thank Hanif Abdurra Raqib for being on the show, spending tons of time with me hanging out in this studio. It was a blast getting to chat with him. I hope we get to do it again. He's just super inspiring to me as someone who explores kind of memoir story writing, which is something that I dabble in on this show and in public speaking and also pour into some of my kids books. So thank you so much for your time, Hanif. Go check out his new podcast Living for the City. So interested in this topic and I know he just does so much great work. So I think it's gonna be fantastic. Super huge. Thanks to Sophie Miller for being an editor and producer on the show. Thanks to Connor Jones of Penning Beautiful for audio edits, video edits, animation and sound design. Thanks to Yoni Wolf of the band Y for our theme music and soundtrack. And thanks to all of you for listening until we speak again. Stay pep. We all need advice, but it's not always clear who to ask. Even in 2026. Enter how to the long standing Advice show. An Ambie Award nominated best personal growth podcast. That's back with new episodes and a new host. Who? Me, Mike Pesca. Each week I tackle a listener question ranging from travel to finance to relationships and beyond with help from a world class expert. You know, someone who actually very much knows what they're talking about. Think of it as eavesdropping on someone else's therapy session without the copay or awkward silences. You've got questions. We'll find the experts and the answers, so follow how to with Mike Pesca Wherever you get podcasts. Have you ever asked yourself, can the president really do that? Or wondered if there was too much money in political campaigns? Then check out the new season of you Might Be Right, hosted by us former Tennessee governors Phil Bredesen and Bill Haslam. We're back for a brand new season now, and you Might Be Right cements the idea that constructive disagreement can lead to real problem solving. This season, we're going to dig into the role of the National Guard AI regulation and and a lot more. New episodes drop every other week. Follow you Might Be Right. Wherever you get your podcasts.