← Creative Pep Talk
Creative Pep Talk
559 - Make Before Thinking, Sales Mode, Get Weird with It, The Opposite of Depression and MORE with Austin Kleon
01:10:34
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- [00:01]
Andy J. Pizza
This is not an ad, it's a gift. I'm going to be at the Icon Illustration Conference this year in July doing a handful of different things and I asked them if they could give me a discount for the listeners of the show because I would love to see you there and hang out at the after parties and whatnot. And they let me have a hundred dollar discount to share with you, which is just so generous and so awesome. If you're an illustrator, I highly recommend going to Icon. It's been a magical experience the times that I've gone. Even the first time in 2014 that I went, it was a very scary leap, but so worth it. Go to icon, icon.creativepeptalk.com to learn more. The discount is automatically applied to that link. Icon.creativepeptalk.com Hope to see you there. Are you afraid of making art? I get it. I get like that sometimes. Sometimes it can be scary. Like I remember when I was a kid I would just make art. I wasn't even thinking about it. I was just having a blast, just blowing through stuff. And then the further I go in my creative practice, the more afraid that I seem to be. And that's why today I am thrilled to have Austin Kleon on the show with his new book, Don't Call It Art. If you're afraid of making art, don't call it Art. Make some stuff. And we had an absolute blast chatting. This guy is so full of creative wisdom and I'm so inspired by his enthusiasm around creativity and play and having fun and remembering what it's like to create without fear. And we get into this is just a grab bag of so many good ideas and things you can execute to recapture that creative spirit. So you're going to love it. You're going to have so much fun. I'm going to be back at the end with our cta. This CTA is called Don't Tell and Show and I'll be back at the end with that and you can do something with that. But for now, I mean, we got a lot of CTAs throughout here, a lot of calls to adventure, all kinds of different ways to get back into that playful place to get past that noisy inner critic and overactive editor. I think you're gonna absolutely love this as much as I loved having this chat. So without further ado, here it is, my chat with Austin Kleon on the creative journey.
- [02:27]
Austin Kleon
It's easy to get, but don't worry, you'll lift off. Sometimes you just need a Creative Pep Talk.
- [02:44]
Andy J. Pizza
Last summer me and the fam went on a once in a lifetime trip to Italy. It was amazing but very hot and I had to learn how to dress for that kind of heat. You want looser breathable fabrics which I hadn't really ever thought about and I started carrying that learning and look back to my wardrobe here in the States for the summer. Like my new stripy short sleeve European linen button down shirt from Quint's. Sophie just got a new pair of European linen pants from Quint that look swishy and flowy and cool and light and look in my heart of hearts. We know we will never be as cool as the effortless Italians that we saw in Florence. But with these summer looks from quints we can look the part and feel literally cool. Like temperature wise at least. Quince European linen pants and shirts are the perfect warm weather upgrade to add to your rotation. Starting at just $34. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. Quint's goes beyond clothing. Custom upholstered sofas, ceramic cookware, premium bedding. It's the kind of brand you end up recommending to everyone for everything. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quint.com Pep Talk for free shipping on your order and 365 day return. Available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Pep Talk for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Pep Talk this episode is sponsored by Squarespace. I freaking love having Squarespace as a sponsor because it's easy to sell it when you love something this much. I'm a big fan. Squarespace is an all in one website platform designed to help you succeed online. Here's what I love about Squarespace. They're intuitive and super versatile. Drag and drop tools mean you can make a custom website without knowledge of code that makes people say whoa, who made that for you? Looks like you built that from scratch. People have really said stuff like that to me about my site and I built it myself quite easily with Squarespace. You can check it out@andijpizza.com if you want to check that out. What I did with it, it doesn't look templatey and it screams my creative brand. I also love that I have all of my domains through Squarespace now, which makes it seamless and easy to know. The first thing as creative folks do when we get an idea is to grab that URL now you can keep track of all your websites and your domains in one place. That's super intuitive and easy to manage. Head to squarespace.com pep talk for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, use promo code pep talk, all one word to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. To see you, I was excited about chatting. So I was just asking you about how do you kind of finish strong on a book? Because a part of the process is promoting it and launching it, and I've had some success in the past with that, but I really struggle to get into the spirit of it often.
- [05:40]
Austin Kleon
I know. Yeah, me too. It's, you know, they're two. They're two different parts of your brain, you know, it's like. And I think, like, every creative person deals with this. It's like, there's the person that loves to make the stuff.
- [05:52]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [05:53]
Austin Kleon
And then there's the person that has to sell it, you know? And in the old days, you know, like, they probably wouldn't have been the same person.
- [05:59]
Andy J. Pizza
Right.
- [06:00]
Austin Kleon
I think that's what we're all feeling. The crush of is everyone has to be everything now. You got to be your own producer, you got to be your own maker. You got to be your own salesman, you know? And so, like, for me, it's like. Like, I'm wearing my apron today because it's studio day. Like, I'm talking. Because I was like, I'm talking to
- [06:16]
Andy J. Pizza
Andy to interrupt you on studio day, man.
- [06:19]
Austin Kleon
No, it's great. I actually, like, I was like, I'm talking to Andy. That means I don't have to get, like, super dress stuff.
- [06:25]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
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Austin Kleon
Because, like, nobody. Nobody listen to Andy's podcast wants me to look all buttoned up.
- [06:30]
Andy J. Pizza
Right.
- [06:31]
Austin Kleon
So I was like, okay, I'm. I'm gonna talk to Andy, and then, like, I'm gonna just print for the rest of the day because, like, I'm trying to get my mind off the release, you know? But, like, it's also that, like, there's something about costumes that I think is, like, really, really important. And there's something about, like, how mentally you have to put on your salesman costume. Like, you have to get into that PT Barnum mode.
- [06:56]
Andy J. Pizza
You know?
- [06:57]
Austin Kleon
I think, like, more creative people should study, like, P.T. barnum and, like, spectacle and, like, think about that. The whole generating the, you know, quasi event, the image, the whatever, you know? And it's like, I don't. I do think that, like, working in advertising for the brief period that I did was just like, really, really helpful for me because it was just like, everything has to be sold.
- [07:22]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [07:23]
Austin Kleon
Like everyone's kind of like, you know, we're all pushed this idea that, oh, the work speaks for itself, you know, and it's like it doesn't, it really doesn't. Like you got, someone's got to speak for it. But I do share your frustration with releases because I, I, it's the same as I, I've always hated it when people compare books to giving birth because I've witnessed two natural childbirths and it's just like, I don't want to do that at all.
- [07:51]
Andy J. Pizza
I've seen one myself, you know, and
- [07:53]
Austin Kleon
it's like, and it's like the, the only way I can think that it's similar is just the fact that there's like, everyone focuses on the birth plan and no one thinks about what's going to happen after the birth. It's almost like an afterthought, you know, because like, once the thing is here, like, it's hard, it's really hard getting it here. But like, once the thing's here, then it's like there's all kinds of other work, you know, and there's, and a
- [08:17]
Andy J. Pizza
lot of it, you know, let's give you so much. Even as you're going through the doctors and everything, you have so much of a team. Yeah, this is how we're a midwife or whoever it is. You've got all this information and then they're like, okay, see ya here.
- [08:30]
Austin Kleon
They're like, hey, you got your car seat? Yeah, okay, see y' all later. Good luck. You know, I just remember, like, just being in the car going home with my firstborn and just being like, oh, they just let us leave with this baby. They're just letting us go home with this baby, you know, but, but then you realize. So, like, for me, the childbirth metaphor for me with books is always like, yeah, like the real. A lot of the work and a lot of the really unsexy work, you know, happens afterwards. That's the selling, that's making sure, you know, every week when you throw out your newsletter, like, you got to make sure you link to your book, you know. But I've been in this thing lately where I've been just telling people, like, particularly creative people, because a lot of creative people, like, really hate talking about themselves. They hate self promotion stuff. I mean, I wrote a whole book about this and it's like, you just have to remember that, like, no matter how sick of yourself you are, no matter how sick you think everyone else is of you. No matter how much you think you've talked about your new book, I can absolutely guarantee you that the minute you share your book next on social media or wherever.
- [09:42]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [09:42]
Austin Kleon
You're gonna hear from someone who's like, I didn't know you had a new book out. Every time
- [09:51]
Andy J. Pizza
I posted it.
- [09:52]
Austin Kleon
Yeah, I literally like my last book, Keep Going, which came out seven years ago. Like there was kind of a. There's been. That book kind of like goes in cycles because when things get really crappy, like that book, everyone goes, oh wait, there's like this book for like trying to like muck it through these here. And so they're get there, like get these boosts. And then I amplify the boosts on my stuff, you know, someone will post about or whatever. And inevitably someone would be like, I've never even seen that book before. I read all the. I read the other two and I'm like, you know, and I'm a fan where it's like, I'm a completist. Like I. If I get into a band, I want every single record. So like I got into Geese recently like every other middle aged dad and it's like. And like I even bought Projector. I brought the. I bought their first one.
- [10:41]
Andy J. Pizza
They're not even like young again. This geez dude.
- [10:44]
Austin Kleon
Yeah, well, like
- [10:48]
Andy J. Pizza
solo album especially.
- [10:49]
Austin Kleon
Yes, the Cameron Women is the way in. And then the other for anyone who's like wondering what's the big deal about geese? But it was interesting because the geese thing reminded me so much of the kind of imp pulse in Don't Call It Art, where I was just like watching my kids rip it and like the geese kids. And we could call them kids because like we're, you know, like. But like they're all in their 20s and they're the Gen Z. They're like the. In High Fidelity, the movie High Fidelity, they're like these two little kids that like end up making this great music that John Cusack's character puts out. But they're like the Gen Z version of that. Where the whole appeal of Gen Z was supposed to be like, what do kids make when they have unlimited access to everything? And most of the time the answer is like nothing, you know? Yeah, but they're really the, the like, oh, these kids are pulling in influences from everywhere. And yeah, you know, they have dads in the music industry and they're all New York kids and like, you know, they're well cared for and everything, but it's like, it's still in the music, you know. So like the geese kid give me the kind of feeling that my kids gave me when they were like four and they were just like ripping out drawings and I was like, I want to bottle this, put it in a book somehow.
- [12:09]
Andy J. Pizza
That's kind of what the book is.
- [12:10]
Austin Kleon
I mean, I, I hope that's what the book is. It's like borrow my kids, you know, like, like even if you don't think you like kids, even if you're like, if you're, if you hate kids and you don't want your own kids or whatever, I'm like, borrow a four year old for a little while because like a lot of the creative problems that I know you hear all the time, that I hear all the time. I'm convinced that like one good afternoon with a four year old would solve most of those problems, at least in the moment.
- [12:40]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, I completely agree. And it's funny, like, I think you're exactly right. Watching interviews with geese, you can just see this thing where they're unapologetic about influence and having fun and they're not, they're just not really. They haven't been hurt properly.
- [13:00]
Austin Kleon
Yeah.
- [13:00]
Andy J. Pizza
I look at my friends and myself included, and I think, man, you should always be scared when you start being afraid to make stuff. Like, I see I have friends that I'm like, you're afraid. You're afraid to make a thing. It's. That really, really sucks. And I feel like your book, that's kind of the premise is this is how you reparent yourself a little bit to be back into that zone.
- [13:25]
Austin Kleon
What I figured out with my kids is just that like, you can't make kids be creative the same way you can't make other people be creative.
- [13:33]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [13:33]
Austin Kleon
What you can do is you can set up the conditions in which like, creative stuff can happen. And for a lot of us, the big leap for me was like, I'd never taken care of another artist before. Like, I just, I'd always been the person that had been taken care of. And like, once I had kids, it was like, oh crap, how do I, like take care of these little cavemen? Picassos, you know, they're running around like, you know, and when I was showing them this kind of like love and care, I'm thinking to myself, it's like the same thing. When I read parenting books, I was like, wait a minute, like all of this is just solid advice for anyone. Like, why aren't we all getting enough sleep? Why aren't we all, like, going out and, like, touching grass? Why aren't we all taking a nap?
- [14:18]
Andy J. Pizza
You know, like, limiting our screen time and. Yeah, you say that in the book. Yeah.
- [14:22]
Austin Kleon
Like, there's a. There's a. There's a baby book called the Happiest Baby on the Block, and they have a checklist for when your baby's, like, screaming. And the first is like, is it hungry? And then the second one is like, is it tired?
- [14:36]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [14:37]
Austin Kleon
And then the third is like, does it need a change? Is it wet or whatever? Or dirty or whatever? I literally started doing this to myself, you know, because I learned to do it for the book, for the kids. And then I literally started doing that in the studio.
- [14:48]
Andy J. Pizza
Like, I'll be like, adult screaming, okay.
- [14:51]
Austin Kleon
Screaming. It's like, okay, am I hungry? Do I need a nap? Do I just need to, like, go take a walk and come back?
- [14:58]
Andy J. Pizza
Like, this is a shower restart.
- [15:01]
Austin Kleon
It's like the basic stuff that, like, people are just like, no, I'm in the studio. I gotta work. You know, like, you know, like, you're whipping yourself. So it was really this, like, thing of, like, learning to love and care for this little kid. And I just, like, started doing some of the stuff for myself. And then all these people, because they knew me as, like, a proud dad, like, showing off the stuff that my kids were doing and blah, blah, blah. And they would be like, when are you going to write a book for kids about how to be creative? And I'm like, kids don't need a damn book. Like, we're the ones that need a book. Like, we need the book. And so then I was the big moment, because we were already talking about music. Like, the big moment for me was I was listening to this interview with Fiona Apple. She somehow let the interviewer know that she reads parenting books. Like, she buys and reads parenting books. And this interviewer is like, what is like, do you have kids? She's like, no. He's like, do you want to have kids? She's like, no. And he's like, so, what's the deal with the parenting book? She's just like, well, I just figure it's just good advice, you know, maybe I can learn something. And he's like, so you're the parent and the child? And she's like, don't you always have to be. And this big freaking light bulb went off in front of my head where it's like, you know, when we grow up, we have those two things in us. We have the. The kid in Us that loves to make stuff, the kid that loves to do the stuff. And then we have the parent. And a lot of us get the message that the parent needs to be a real like helicopter taskmaster parent. Like, yeah, put your ass in there and work, boy. You do this. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it's like, you know, so we have this voice in our head and that's the inner critic that everyone talks about. Like, you need to get a real job. You need this, you know that. And like this, the parent will shut down that little kid. And so I think there's a way to kind of relearn, to train that voice and to kind of train yourself to be the loving, caring force so that the little like 4 year old and you can like come out and have a blast, even if it's only for 15 minutes a day. Right.
- [17:07]
Andy J. Pizza
I thought of it in a similar way. I thought this book is for people who have an overdeveloped inner critic or editor that's like very overactive. And all of this stuff, I hadn't really connected this, but one of the ways I've thought about this sort of information that you have here is like creative hygiene. This came from a book. The thought of this came from the book the Master and his Emissary. And he was saying that there are certain things that you can't force yourself to do. You can't sleep on command, but you can create the conditions for sleep to happen. And I feel like creativity feels like that as well. Like you can't just be like, all right, I'm going to be creative. But you can. There are a lot of things you can do to make it so that creativity is, you know, making it hospitable for your creative self. And I think your book is really like a great selection of those.
- [18:04]
Austin Kleon
Yeah. And I mean, that book was a huge. I'm a big Ian McGilchrist fan.
- [18:08]
Andy J. Pizza
Oh, really? Yeah.
- [18:10]
Austin Kleon
So like the Master and is a mystery and then his insane. The matter with things. I've read both those books.
- [18:16]
Andy J. Pizza
I'm about halfway through the audiobook. It's a. It's a beast. It's like 24 hours or something.
- [18:21]
Austin Kleon
Yeah. And his whole thing that like. Well, I can't write them shorter because that's against the. Whatever. That's right. They could be written shorter. Like, sorry. And. But like, whatever.
- [18:30]
Andy J. Pizza
It's large, but it is fascinating. I mean, it is really, really good.
- [18:33]
Austin Kleon
It's interesting stuff and it's just a fun metaphor. Like one of the things I think we get caught up on is whether things are true or not.
- [18:39]
Andy J. Pizza
I agree completely.
- [18:41]
Austin Kleon
Just a fun metaphor to think about and to just summarize for people who are listening. Like, Bill Gilchrist's basic idea is that, you know, we're. We're. We have two hemispheres in our brain. And, you know, you've heard for years, it's like, well, I'm a right brain person, I'm a left brain person, whatever. That's not real. But there are. There are hemispheres in the brain, and the left brain does very different things than the right brain does. And the Gilchrist kind of uses the left brain, right brain thing to talk about what's gone on in our culture, and he talks about how the left brain has kind of taken over the culture. The culture is all about this kind of laser focused. McGilChris kind of used the example of, like, when you're an animal, you have to eat without getting eaten, right. So, like, the eating part is like. Is like. It's like the laser brain focus, like, exploit this situation, get the food, like, whatever. But then there has to be another part of your brain that's kind of like looking around and scoping the horizon, kind of like making sure you don't get eaten or whatever. And so the left and right brain thing for me also is the kind of like, parent, child is that kind of like same duality. You know, the overly left brain is that parent that's like, you got to get a job, you got to be practical, you got to do this, you got to do that, you know, and so you never want to get too, like, dichotomies are tricky, but I think if you play with them and they. You use them as just generative, you know, you have to make sure as long as they're generative.
- [20:11]
Andy J. Pizza
I'm trying to capture this in my life. Like, this is one of my top priorities, is to figure out some way of having a positive relationship to what you could say this. The spiritual self or the symbolic view. Yeah. And the way I've been kind of thinking about it recently is it's not about if it's true. It's if it. If it allows you to work with the truth, if it actually allows you to work with. Yeah. Adaptive things, behaviors, and ideas. And does it get you into a space? And I feel like I'm trying to find that distance. I really liked in your book the chapter about believing in magic, because I think it really captures. Yeah, it captures some element of that. Maybe you could speak to that a Little bit.
- [21:01]
Austin Kleon
Well, like, you know, kids are like. Kids believe that the world is alive and that it's magical and that. That, of course, a tree would have feelings. Why wouldn't it? Like, why wouldn't a tree be like me and think thoughts and, like, whatever, you know? And like, my kids and everyone who's been around kids knows that they, like, they get these things, you know, like, we. We were walking around the city one time, and there was a full moon out, and Jules looked at me and said, papa, look, the moon is following us. You know, it's just like. Like, everything a kid says is like the beginning of a kid's book, basically. Like, I don't write kids books. But, like, it's kind of, like, very true. It's like a generative thing, and we've
- [21:40]
Andy J. Pizza
got a huge compendium of all of the things they've said.
- [21:43]
Austin Kleon
And that is my big advice to any parents who are listening, is to just get a book or an apple note and just write down every single thing that they say. Because you won't remember it. No. Like, the only way I have so many of these examples in the book is because I have diaries and I drew the kids. I was really inspired by this guy named James Kochalka, who, when I was reading him about 20 years ago, God, he would draw his kids and these situations. And James has always been a person who's been very interested in the, like, no difference between his work and play and no difference between his family and his art. And so, like, the way that he kind of thought about his kids and the way he treated them and stuff, and they're like young men now. They're, like, going to college. So to kind of watch him, that was, like, one of my models. But, like, capturing the things that kids do was a big part of this book. And treating my kids almost like artists that I was the assistant to and trying to, like, document what they were doing was, like, a big deal to me. So I. One of the person you might know, her work, Dalav Ipkar, who's a children's illustrator, got really into her story because her parents were actually artists who were, like, formally trained. But then modernism hit and, like, everything just blew up. You know, their formal training got blown up. So they raised Dalav as just kind of a wild. They just kind of let her go. They did the, like, here's the art supplies. Go to it. But the thing they did that was really interesting is they collected all of her drawings and all of her artwork from, like, 2 to 17 I think, you know, and what's really interesting about it is that she ended up having the first. First female solo show at moma because it was a show of her kids art. And I just found this out from, like, digging around, like, looking in the. And none of this is in the book like, that. I didn't use any of this for the book, but what it did is it gave me this, like, foundation of, like, oh, what if you, like, collected your kids drawings and really treated and paid attention to them in this certain way and, like, kind of watch their development stuff like, this is worth. Because I think a lot of people, like, oh, you know, they get a kid's drawing and they're like, oh, yeah, great. Thanks, kid. Put it on the fridge or toss it or whatever. But to me, it was like. And then it was interesting to follow Dolla Vipar because she raised two sons, I think. I think two sons. She had two kids. And she would talk about painting and just being like, yeah, I would just let the kids run around and be at the easel. And it was no big deal. I figured. And she said, I never made any point to teach them anything because I just figured they would be around art and they'd be whatever. So that kind of stuff was, like, really, really, like, inspirational to me and just kind of laid the foundation for this. And I kind of, like, always knew I was gonna do something with all this stuff, but I didn't know what it was. And I just. And I'd done enough books that I was just kind of like. I don't know if I was cocky or just had faith in the idea that, like, something would happen. But going back to the magic thing, because that was a long, digressive answer, which is like, no, it's good. You know, Elizabeth Gilbert wrote a whole book called Big Magic. And, you know, she talks about. And then she's in the book, and this idea that just because you kind of know something isn't true. If you behave as though it is, though, it puts you in this way of paying attention to the world.
- [25:14]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [25:14]
Austin Kleon
And so, like, basically, if you believe. If you just choose to believe that the universe is sending you messages, right? Then when you go on a walk every morning, you just notice stuff because you're like, what's the universe serving up to me today? What's the theme? So, like, I'll do that every morning when we go on our walk. And there's. Because our brains just do they. We just make meaning out of two things. We find the connection, like, no, Matter what. Like. But I had gone seeing Granddaddy because we're talking about music. So I'd seen Granddaddy the, like, a few days before. And I went out on this walk, and there was, like, all this abandoned music. There's all this, like. There was a keyboard that was busted on the ground that we saw on our walk. There are all these speakers that were out, like. Like blown up outside of this record store that they just, like, throw in the dumpster or whatever. And then in a little free library, there was this book about how to, like, play ukulele. So, like, I came back from my walk and I was like, you know, abandoned music. Like, what does that say to you? And I could have sat down and written a whole or drawn or done something just with those two words, like, abandoned music. But because I'm, like, always, I tell myself when I go on a walk, I try to pretend to be like, a kid, like, okay, well, what's the universe going to serve up for us today? And just that little, like, tweak gets me in that, like, headspace. Well, I think the person who's really good on this, too, is Elaine De Baton. Like, one of the things that he said is, you know, the least interesting thing about a religion is whether it's true.
- [26:46]
Andy J. Pizza
Right. I completely agree.
- [26:48]
Austin Kleon
I think about that all the time because, you know, I've. I was. I grew up Methodist and.
- [26:53]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [26:54]
Austin Kleon
Like, in the church and, like, very, like. And. And I. The more I think about my young experience in the church, the more I'm really hold on to. Because I think a lot of people who grew up the way I do, you're around people this kind of evangelical, maybe not Methodist, but, like, a lot of the people I know, like, I grew up with, I have this very evangelical thing where it's like, you have to believe. You have to believe. You have to believe. And I've always been more attracted to the rituals.
- [27:25]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [27:26]
Austin Kleon
Of religion. And, I mean, this makes sense as an artist. Right. Because, like, that's all we have is, like, our rituals. And you have to rely on your rituals when you don't believe. Because there's all these times as an artist, like, you don't believe in yourself. Right. You're like, I'm never gonna make anything good again. But you trust in the ritual. You trust that if you pick up a marker and start messing around on a piece of paper, like, you're gonna get something, or if you pick up your guitar and start strumming or playing the same Bob Dylan song over and over. Maybe you'll hit a chord that's wrong and say, oh, that's interesting. Maybe I can use that. You know, so we have these rituals and that's what we rely on. And so, you know, I've always felt like the thing to really steal from religion for me personally, is not the belief, it's the ritual. The sense of ritual that if you show up and you do over and over again, it'll lead you to something rather than only being interested in the blue. Well, you just have to believe. It's like. It doesn't do that for me. But I think that if you do the rituals, if you show up and you do the verbs, like something will appear. That's how I feel.
- [28:33]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, I completely agree. And I also think you and I both have an interest in kind of the space between or the connection between the inner world and the outer world. Yeah, I've seen you talk about this. This is something I've thought a lot about. I read an article or is in a book about someone who's referencing the extended mind, but I haven't read that yet. This idea of externalizing your mind like that, that's something I think about all the time. I think about art as being a way to get an outside perspective on yourself. You know, you can think of yourself as going through the world and looking for messages from the universe as this very woo woo thing. But as soon as you're describing it, it's poetry. It is a. And yeah, and I like this. I heard it described another way by Dr. Lisa Miller. She said that it's this seeing the connection between the inner world and the outer world that in some of the research they call that questing. And it's just this thing of. It's a wholeness to moving through. I've seen your self is not disconnected from the universe. Well, you're artistic about that. Yeah.
- [29:39]
Austin Kleon
Like kids, the whole. The whole process of development is that individuation. Right. The kid doesn't see itself different from the mom at first. It's like, well, they're one, right. And they're connected. And then slowly, over time, we become. So. Yeah, we're like looking for that. You know, I will go. The thing that I realized a while back, there's a. A lady named Beth Pickens who I really like her.
- [30:04]
Andy J. Pizza
Tomorrow, actually.
- [30:04]
Austin Kleon
Oh, tell her I said hi and tell her she came up. I love her stuff. She's actually helped me a lot. And one of the things that Beth said that I think all the time about is that artists and creative people are people who suffer if they're not working.
- [30:21]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [30:21]
Austin Kleon
Like, if they're not making.
- [30:22]
Andy J. Pizza
I love that definition of an artist. Yeah.
- [30:25]
Austin Kleon
Because for years, I had heard. I had heard people say, well, only become an artist if you can't do anything else. Right. And I had thought in the back of my mind, well, I could have done anything else. I could have been a doctor. I could have been a lawyer. I could have been an astronaut. Well, like, whatever. Like, I'm a smart guy. Like, I've met these. Like, I've met people out in the world. I could do this. But what I didn't think about is what happens to me if I'm not making things right. And this, like, blew my mind. I mean, like, I owe Beth forever just for this single idea and her work. And Beth knows that because she's not an artist herself. And that's why I think it's so cool, is that she works with artists. And so the thing for me, you want to talk about inner and outer world, is I suddenly realized that the reason that I draw and the reason that I write and the reason that I make stuff is that I literally don't know what's going on inside of me unless I'm doing that stuff.
- [31:24]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [31:25]
Austin Kleon
I think people have this idea, and it can be true, that creative work is about taking what's inside of you, figuring out what that is and how you can get it on the page.
- [31:36]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, right.
- [31:37]
Austin Kleon
Yeah, right. Yeah, that's. But. But what I've learned, and I learned this from Linda Berry mostly, is that the hand pulls out of the brain as much as the brain uses the hand. And so, like, when I am writing, I am discovering. I am discovering what it is that's inside of me. What did I actually think? What's actually going on in my brain when I'm drawing? It's like, here are the images that are inside when I'm taking a walk and saying, what is the universe serving to us today? What it really is is like, well, you're thinking about abandoned music. Why aren't you on stage? Why aren't you in your band? Like, you went to see Granddaddy? Why aren't you on stage with your band? Maybe that's why you're rehearsing tomorrow. You know, that kind of thing. So it's like pulling those things out. And so for me, it's a matter of almost, like, emotional survival, in a sense. The only way that I know what's going on in me is to do the stuff and if I don't do the stuff, I don't know what's going on.
- [32:40]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah. And I like how you talk. I like how you talk about this in the book around not making art and make stuff. I'm a big fan of making stuff.
- [32:48]
Austin Kleon
Yes.
- [32:48]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [32:48]
Austin Kleon
Yes.
- [32:49]
Andy J. Pizza
I'm totally into that.
- [32:50]
Austin Kleon
I just really like what it got. I wanted this book to be like, just to have the most dead simple. Usually on the back of the books, I have some. We have some sort of tagline that kind of summarizes the book, like, steal like an artist. It's something very generic, like unleash your creativity or something like that. But this book, I was like, I want this to be the dumbest, simplest Nike just do it kind of thing. And, like, just make stuff. Was. And. And so that just like, really. I just wanted this to be dead simple because it seemed so simple when I was around the kids. I knew it wasn't simple. You know, I worked in advertising when I was a digital marketer or whatever it was that I did. Copywriter.
- [33:31]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [33:32]
Austin Kleon
I had a creative director who just said to me this thing that, like, really helped me. It's so simple. He said, just make something immediately. He's like, whatever you're working on, he's like, just make something immediately. If it's a sketch, if it's a prototype, whatever. Like, just make something. So, you know, he's. I used to mock up websites in PowerPoint or like Keynote or something and just show it to him. Oh, yeah, you'll do this. You'll click this. And just because it was like, the minute we have something, totally, then we can mess with it and, like, you know, manipulate it and say, nah, that sucks. Throw it out. So it's like, that was some of the best advice that I ever got is like, the minute you make something and, you know, you mentioned Annie Murphy Paul's book. People aren't going to be able to see this who listen to the podcast. But, yeah, I'm holding it on YouTube, but I'm holding up this thing called a Volvel. I got really into Volvo. You might know it as a spinner, but it's got multiple levels. And when I was reading Annie Paul's book, I actually made myself a spinner that. That has the different levels that Annie Murphy Paul talks about. But that's one of the things I would recommend.
- [34:39]
Andy J. Pizza
Extended mind.
- [34:41]
Austin Kleon
I don't know if you said extended mind. That book. And I actually. And making. And one of the things I. One of the things I learn from doing that with other people's books is like trying to summarize people's books. In particularly trying to get like a visual representation of other people's books. Yeah, I find helps me with my own stuff. So when I was working on this book, I made my own spinner. And on this spinner, it's got one level that says time, space and materials. And then the next level says head, heart and hands. And then the next level says past, present and future. And I would spin these things around and sort of wonder, like, I would line up like, okay, what time, hands in the past? Like, what does that mean? What would that do? This didn't end up in the book at all. None of this crap. Like, like, you know, but. But having this object, like this thing that I made meant that I could like, fidget and play and think about the ideas in the book. And like, I didn't even get the head, heart, hands thing in this book. But just having that as the background, that's what I'm trying to say is like. I guess the thing for me with books and all creative projects is it's like the thing that you see is really. It really is just the tip of the iceberg. Yeah, there's just like this huge foundation, especially with my books. Because what I'm trying to. Is I'm trying to take like all this stuff and just like make a Ramones album out of it.
- [36:02]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [36:02]
Austin Kleon
Yeah, basically.
- [36:03]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [36:04]
Austin Kleon
Like, I'm trying to make like a punk record. I have like the Complete Tusk recording sessions or something. You know, like, I have like the whole.
- [36:13]
Andy J. Pizza
I have.
- [36:13]
Austin Kleon
I have the Brew sessions or something and I'm like, try in my head. And then I'm trying to like make a Ramones album. I'm trying to respect that.
- [36:22]
Andy J. Pizza
I. I kind of wish that more people approach books that way, honestly.
- [36:25]
Austin Kleon
Well, it's just what I like. And I'm just trying to make books. I'm just trying to make books I like, you know, I don't like the. I know that I'd be richer maybe if I did the. I mean, like the 300 page one idea book. Like, everybody knows these and they do fine. But like, I don't like that. I like the 100 page 30 idea book. Like, and maybe it's the 80 HD brain. Maybe it's the, like, whatever it is. But I want things coming at me fast and furious and I want them dense because that's the thing I try to do in the books. And I try to like, make them real dense but fast.
- [37:02]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [37:02]
Austin Kleon
So that people read them real quick. But then they're like, huh, maybe I'll go back to that part and give it a little more time. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I want to re listen to that song. You know, I think I'm giving away the fact that I really wanted to be a musician when I was a kid. The idea that this is an album,
- [37:19]
Andy J. Pizza
okay, it's not even a book.
- [37:21]
Austin Kleon
Well, and if you look at the back of my books, they have a track list album too.
- [37:26]
Andy J. Pizza
Relatively the same size.
- [37:27]
Austin Kleon
So it's like, yeah, it looks like a cd, right? So it's like there's a re everything. Talk about inner and outer world. Like knowing yourself.
- [37:48]
Andy J. Pizza
Foreign. I'm always trying to up my game creatively. Recently it's been comedy writing for my books and talks. And there's only really one place I know of where the literal best in the biz share all their tips and tricks. And it's Masterclass. The class with writer, director, producer Judd Apatow is especially great. I've been listening to it on audio mode while driving and doing chores. One thing that he said that I instantly started to apply was prioritizing facetime with the people working in creative roles that you wish you had. It erases your limiting beliefs when you see that they are human just like you. This was true for me meeting working illustrators when I was in college. But now I'm like, how can I interview people on this podcast that are where I want to go next? I know a lot of listeners to this show are interested in upping their storytelling game, so maybe the class learn how to tell a story with Big short. And Moneyball author Michael Lewis could be a good starting point for you. I love that three out of four Masterclass members say they feel inspired every time they watch. 83% say they have applied ideas from the classes to their real life. And every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. Masterclass keeps adding new classes, so there's never been a better time to get in. Right now, as a listener of this show, you get at least 15% off the annual membership@masterclass.com Pep Talk. That's. That's 15% off masterclass.com Pep Talk. Head to masterclass.com Pep Talk to see the latest offer. Man, I can't tell you how badly I wish I had been able to find a great therapist that accepted my insurance. Back in my mid-20s, I was figuring out I was ADHD. I was struggling in my career and struggling to support a new family and finding a good therapist that I could afford would have been a total game changer. I'm almost, almost 40 now and I've been in therapy in some capacity for the past few years and it has made such a massive impact on my mental health. I truly wish that everybody could do it. And that is why I'm thrilled to tell you about Rula. Rula is an online healthcare company that allows you to quickly and easily find therapists that accept your insurance. Literally, the first thing you do on their site is put your zip code in and your insurance into the search bar. And Rula asks you a few simple questions about the care that you're looking for. And boom. Delivers lots of options of therapists that take your insurance. Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when they use their insurance. And I love how this is making therapy accessible to more people. Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high quality therapy that's actually covered by Insurance. Visit rula.compep talk to get started. Started. That's R U L A.com Pep Talk. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget. I have two, two different things. So I'll do a couple rapid fire around some actions that you can do to kind of unlock this space. And then I have started doing an ADHD round, which is where there's no through line. It's just a, a grab bag of a few things that I wanted to ask you.
- [40:56]
Austin Kleon
I love it. Great.
- [40:57]
Andy J. Pizza
The first thing is maybe you could talk about scheduling playtime.
- [41:00]
Austin Kleon
There's a book called Just Play by a guy named Stuart Brown and I think he has a TED talk like you could watch. But he's a play researcher and there's a line in that book that really blew my mind. He said, you know, the opposite of play is at work. The opposite of play is depression.
- [41:16]
Andy J. Pizza
That one hit me.
- [41:17]
Austin Kleon
To be playful is to be alive to the world. And kids are alive to the world. They're just like, they haven't got sick of the world yet. They haven't gotten like, it's all new, it's all interesting to them. And I think like a lot of us, you know, we hit depression when like we can't, like we just can't see the world in that way. It's just like not alive to us.
- [41:38]
Andy J. Pizza
When I've been depressed, I, I love that line in the book because I was like, man, that nails it. Like when I'm depressed, I can't remember why you play. I can't Remember what play is? Nothing I can think of sounds like play.
- [41:52]
Austin Kleon
Yeah. So my friend and I talk a lot, we bike a lot, and we don't. We're not cyclists. We just ride bikes.
- [41:58]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [41:59]
Austin Kleon
Like, we ride slow and. And long and just like, we just take these, like, two hour rambles around Austin and we talk all the time about, like, God, it's really hard to be depressed on a bicycle. It's just so hard. Like, we can't even, you know, because we'll start out and it's like, I mean, we'll start out, we'll be bitching at each other, like, what's going on? We're both old dads. You know, this and that. And, like, by the end of the ride, it's like, you don't even remember what we were bitching about at the end. You're just, like, so gleeful to be alive. And in some ways, you're a lot. You're gleeful because you didn't die on the bike. I mean, like, biking around Austin, it's like, well, we didn't get hit by a truck. We're alive, you know, like, every. But yeah. Like, the point is, is that Stuart Brown talks about how a lot of us have a play deficit. We are people who desperately need play, and the people who need play the most are the people who think they don't need it. And so if you don't have play time built into your life, you need to schedule it. And if you have to, if your inner taskmaster asks you, well, what's the ROI on this? Or, like, you could be working or whatever, you need to think of it as R D time. Research and development time.
- [43:15]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [43:15]
Austin Kleon
I swear to you, in here in this studio on a Sunday afternoon, I will go. I'd be like, you know, the kids are on their screens, and Megan's, like, working in the garden. You know, I think I'll just pop out to the studio and listen to geese, like, and just like, whatever. Those are always the days where I make, like, 20 things, you know? Like, I always get in here and make, like, a hundred things and have the most productive day, because I'm like, I'm just gonna go in there and fart around, like, it's all good, you know? Play time. It's gonna be play time, you know? So, like, if you feel dead, if you feel like. Like you just need to schedule some play time. And the other thing I would say to people is it might not be being in the studio, like, something that Beth talks a lot. You Know, we mentioned Beth Pickens. Like, one of the things I hope Beth talks about in your conversation is how important Sabbaths are to take a day off to do a day where you don't work on anything. Those are, that's a great time to, like, schedule your play time. So I, I, I truly believe that jamming with my bad dad band and riding my bicycle are just as creatively fruitful to me than, than reading a book even, you know?
- [44:30]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, I think so. I've been thinking about this a lot. One of the privileges of my current scenario, but also curses, is that I have monetized almost everything I love to do, and I feel very grateful for that. When I think about playtime, I end up thinking, like, I don't know what that would look like. What? Do you have any, like, hacks for figuring out how to fill that time in a way that you're like, okay, I've got 30 minutes. I've got two hours. Whatever it is, I'm going to schedule it in there. How do I think about what it would look like to mess around and have fun?
- [45:04]
Austin Kleon
I think it needs to look completely different than what you normally do.
- [45:08]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, that's good.
- [45:10]
Austin Kleon
You know, like, what would Charlie Bucket do after he got the chocolate factor? You know, I always think of the end of, like, Charlie and the chocolate factor. You know, Willy Wonka. Don't remember, don't forget Charlie. What happened to Manny? Always got whatever he always wanted. And Charlie goes, what's that, Willy Wonka? And I wanted him to look at him, say, you had to run a chocolate factory. Have fun. Bye.
- [45:29]
Andy J. Pizza
Get to work.
- [45:30]
Austin Kleon
Like, imagine how sick of chocolate Charlie is now, right? Like, what does Charlie do on his day off, if he gets a day off? You know, that's the thing. So for me, it's also like, what's the opposite of what I normally do? You know? And so, like, for me, that's like, that's printmaking. I love block printing. Just carve a little stupid speedball thing that you got at the art store, you know, roll it and just make a hundred prints. That, to me, is, like, so different than the normal, like, verbal work that I do. So, like, the other thing is I'm not very good at it yet. I don't really know what I'm doing. And that's a really good thing. Like, become a beginner at something, right? Like, what's something you've always wanted to learn? The trick on that is once you know how to do it, you're going to monetize It.
- [46:19]
Andy J. Pizza
Right.
- [46:20]
Austin Kleon
You know, like figure out. But that was the great thing about biking is I didn't bike as a kid. And so learning to ride a bike for me at like 40 was like a really great experience. And I was like, talk about the fervor of a convert. You know, I was just like, this is the secret to life.
- [46:36]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [46:36]
Austin Kleon
You know, and now I'm more like, bike ride. It's good, you know, but like, that's the thing is like hobbies, you know, little side projects, the stuff that looks like farting around. The magic of all this stuff is that it'll end up talking to your real work if you. You know, like every time I'm in like in band practice, I've been thinking a lot about sheet music and tablature and using. Cause when we play the guy. The guys I play with, the guitar players are really like a really close friend of mine. But he has this brain where he really wants to print the tableture off and. And. And like really pay attention to the. To the tabs and like how things go. And the thing I'm always reminding him is I'm like, this is just someone on the Internet that made this dude. This is not like, this is not necessarily what's on the record. And something I've learned as a musician is even this fishel sheet music is not necessarily right. And so I'm always pushing him to move away and away from the music. But the point is, is that I realized that I've gotten to a point creatively where I'm trying to get away from the perfect thing. That like, the idea of being in a cover band for me is that we figure out what our limitations are and what. How our limitations will lead us to this new thing. Like we cover maps by. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're dudes.
- [48:06]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [48:06]
Austin Kleon
And so like, I have to figure out how to sing like Kira now. Yeah.
- [48:10]
Andy J. Pizza
Right.
- [48:10]
Austin Kleon
Which is impossible. So we like figured out. I was like, well, you know, she's like, what if we. And you know, you're just. And like, you know, there's no bass in like that song. What. You know, and just like that. That. So what I'm. I guess all this rambling. What I'm trying to say is that I can't help. If you're a creative person, you're not going to be able to help things talking to each other. They're just going to talk to each other.
- [48:36]
Andy J. Pizza
Definitely.
- [48:37]
Austin Kleon
I mean like, like that's the space
- [48:39]
Andy J. Pizza
that creatives live in is just that this is similar to that. How's that connected that.
- [48:43]
Austin Kleon
Yeah, yeah. And they're really good work. Is when there's two plates and they're rubbing, that's when you get an earthquake, right?
- [48:50]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [48:50]
Austin Kleon
So there's two plates and they start rubbing together. I mean, you know, this is someone who uses pictures and words in the work. That's the magic. That's where the juice is when picture words meet. It's like this really magic thing.
- [49:03]
Andy J. Pizza
I completely agree. And it touches on another thing I wanted to ask you about, which I. I think this is really brilliant. Like, kind of the learning of tutorial versus deconstruction. Like, there's something totally different there. Could you speak to that a little bit?
- [49:19]
Austin Kleon
Well, I mean, as a musician, it's that thing where you can go on YouTube right now and some stranger will teach you exactly how to play the riff on Led Zeppelin 1 or. Or, you know, Led Zeppelin 2 heartbreaker. Like, here's how to play it. And that can be really valuable and fruitful. But if you have to figure it out for yourself, you're going to stumble around. And one of the things that might happen if you're a person that wants to make your own music, is that trying to learn that riff with just your ear, you're going to hit the wrong notes and you're going to find something new. This is something that little Steven talks about with Springsteen is he's like. The thing about Springsteen is, like, he can't keep the real chords in his head. So when we cover stuff, he, like, freaks out. He, like, does the wrong chords, but then he, like, comes up with this new thing, you know, and that's like. And that's like copying, you know, like when you try to copy someone else's art by hand or something, it's like the. The ways that you mess it up. You like, you know, you get to your own thing. And I think this is like. I mean, I've been dancing around this so much, but, like, this is why AI, you know, finally this came up in this conversation because everyone's been asking me about. It's like, AI is for people who know what they want, right?
- [50:46]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [50:46]
Austin Kleon
And I don't know what I want. When I'm starting to work. Yeah, I'm gonna find it. And the joy and the beauty of creative work is to discover what you didn't know you were looking for.
- [50:59]
Andy J. Pizza
Definitely. And I. This is something I obviously have about. I try to make. I try not to. I try to talk about it, like, every eighth episode, because otherwise it's just going to take over the whole damn thing. And, you know, it's just people are really into it.
- [51:11]
Austin Kleon
Are really into it. People who aren't. And like, it's just this kind of like, war thing. But, like, I do try to articulate how at the very moment, I'm just not that into it because I'm like, dude, this is not what I. This is not why I set out to do this.
- [51:25]
Andy J. Pizza
Related to what I like. Yeah. And I. One thing that's kind of annoyed me, I thought about doing a. I've done a bunch of episodes on taste over the years, and it's something I've thought a tremendous amount about. And it's kind of annoyed me that the tech world, tech bros have kind of adopted this taste thing in a way that I never would have seen coming. And the thing that's annoying to me about it is in my way of thinking about it, way of using it in your process. I've said the same thing you say in the book, which is it's about listening to your body. And you can only do that as you work through the process, as you're
- [52:03]
Austin Kleon
going make the movements.
- [52:05]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [52:05]
Austin Kleon
And if you're on like a wacom or something in your, you know, feedback you have.
- [52:10]
Andy J. Pizza
Exactly. So you can't. You taste, you know, you have to be able to cook to have the taste influence it. You know what I mean? Like, that's a huge part of it.
- [52:19]
Austin Kleon
Yeah.
- [52:19]
Andy J. Pizza
And so, yeah, that's kind of annoyed me. All right, let's go on. Because I can keep going for a long time.
- [52:24]
Austin Kleon
Let's talk to you for hours, man.
- [52:26]
Andy J. Pizza
It's. It's. It's absolute blast. It's. It's just really fun. I was gonna start them conversation. This, this Go ADHD round was saying, you know, whenever I talk to you or Hanif Abdur Raqib.
- [52:38]
Austin Kleon
Oh, yeah.
- [52:38]
Andy J. Pizza
I always feel like little brother energy. And I'm like, I don't know what that is. It's a weird thing to say to somebody. But I looked it up and you guys are both born the same year as my older brother. And so I'm like, okay, maybe that's a little bit of it. But I feel like I'm getting. I'm like, have you heard the wallflowers? And you're like, you're gonna love Bob Dylan. You just this. You should check this guy out.
- [53:01]
Austin Kleon
I love. So as someone who I grew up 40 minutes away from Hanif. We were born the same year.
- [53:07]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [53:09]
Austin Kleon
And. But we couldn't be more different, you know, it's so interesting. His love for Ohio is something that I just love getting because I just. I just don't have it, you know, someone who's from there and, like, all my friends are there and, like, my family is all there and, like. Like, I just. I like, for whatever reason, I think it's. There's this great Patton Oswald skit where he talks about Sterling, Virginia, and, like, I couldn't wait to get the hell out of there, blah, blah, blah. And he does this whole thing about Sterling, Virginia, and then his next special, he comes out and he's like, it was me. I'm the one that's broken. It wasn't everyone else. It was me. I'm the one that was broken. But that's how I feel like with Ohio, I'm like, I'm the one that's broken. It's not Ohio's fault.
- [53:55]
Andy J. Pizza
Ohio, too. I live here. And I'll still say, you know, we got. We got some problems, but. Okay, I'm gonna get to the ADHD round. A consistent amount of this is music
- [54:05]
Austin Kleon
related, so I will try to be snappy. I will try not to digress.
- [54:08]
Andy J. Pizza
The ADHD round. I mean, we don't have a ton of time, but the ADHD round's not so much a lightning round as it is just a grab bag. Okay. I saw this really great clip of it's Subway Take, and it was Rostam, who used to be in Vampire Weekend, was on it.
- [54:24]
Austin Kleon
Yeah.
- [54:25]
Andy J. Pizza
And he said something that I thought Kareem, like, maybe didn't know what to do with it or needed more time to process it, but I just thought, oh, there's something really brilliant here. And Rostam said, you know, songwriting isn't something that you progress on in a linear way. Like, you might write your best song when you're 16. You might write your second best one when you're 42. I have thoughts about that, but I'm curious what you make of that.
- [54:51]
Austin Kleon
Oh, yeah, that's just the. The concept of time. Do you believe in time as a straight line? Do you believe in progress? Do you believe in linearity? Or do you believe that, like, I do, that time's a spiral.
- [55:03]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah. Right.
- [55:04]
Austin Kleon
Like nothing in nature is linear. Like nothing grow. Like everything is cyclical.
- [55:09]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [55:10]
Austin Kleon
Earth goes around the sun. It's all about rotations and seasons and cycles and spinning and all that. That. And yes, I. Absolutely. I also think it's the most hopeful way to think about stuff because it. There's still the chance that you could make your best work. You have to have that as you go on. Even though the most beautiful thing, the most bravest thing I ever. One of the things that Elizabeth Gilbert said, I thought, God, I love hearing that from someone on stage. She looked at the audience and she said, it is very possible that my best work is behind me.
- [55:43]
Andy J. Pizza
Right.
- [55:44]
Austin Kleon
But I'm in my 40s.
- [55:45]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [55:46]
Austin Kleon
And, like, I gotta keep going as though. So it's not, you know. And so, yeah, for me, the cyclical thing, once I got out of linear, that was. Keep going. For me, that was. That book is to. To. That was my. That book was me figuring out that time is cyclical instead of linear. Because before then, I'd been like, oh, you do something small every day and the days add up.
- [56:08]
Andy J. Pizza
Right.
- [56:08]
Austin Kleon
And then I realized, like. No, actually, it's more like compound interest, in a sense, is that the days are worth more as you go. And it's more like a flowering. It's more like a prickly pear cactus where. You know. And just like, stuff like that. Also, being married to a gardener has helped me a lot.
- [56:26]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [56:26]
Austin Kleon
Because I get all the metaphors without any of the work.
- [56:29]
Andy J. Pizza
Same. I'm exactly the same. She labors out there. Every once in a while, she'll have a huge project where she needs a huge amount of land, like, turned over. And then I get roped in. But that.
- [56:39]
Austin Kleon
Then you get roped in.
- [56:40]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [56:41]
Austin Kleon
Yep. I'm good at moving rocks and dirt. Yeah. Like, call me when you need wheelbarrow work.
- [56:45]
Andy J. Pizza
Same. Yeah, I'm the same. But I kind of thought of that as, like, being creative. Like, getting into a creative spirit, into a zone is less like a destination you get to and more like a mythical creature that you're looking for. Sometimes you grab. You hold on to it as long as possible.
- [57:02]
Austin Kleon
Yeah.
- [57:02]
Andy J. Pizza
And then it's gone again. But I. I think he's onto something. But Kareem, for some reason, wasn't. He didn't quite, like, grasp it or something, I think. But I just thought it was really a good truth. Really.
- [57:13]
Austin Kleon
Do you have subway takes? Do you keep your subway take for when Kareem calls? I've been thinking about it.
- [57:18]
Andy J. Pizza
What is yours? Do you want to save it?
- [57:22]
Austin Kleon
Yeah. A lot of America's problems have to come down to the bathroom.
- [57:26]
Andy J. Pizza
Okay.
- [57:27]
Austin Kleon
People, they sit on toilets. They're too tall and too big, and they don't have bidets.
- [57:33]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, true.
- [57:34]
Austin Kleon
Everyone's going around. They can't have a grape, first of all. They can't have a good Poop. And then they're walking around with buttholes that they've rubbed raw with toilet paper. Yeah, that's. What's the problem with America. That's my subway completely. Call me Kareem. I'd love to be on.
- [57:52]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, please. Please. Put them on. The world needs to know this. America needs to get their shit together. Right?
- [57:57]
Austin Kleon
Get your shit together, America.
- [57:59]
Andy J. Pizza
This is my second one. It's sort of like, what is the balance of these things? So, reading your book, I was thinking about. I had this gut reaction to. We all have this gut reaction when one of our favorite bands gets signed to a major label. But then I saw Alex G. Got signed to a major label and he's starting to starting a family. And I read in an interview that he's, like, getting serious about music before the next album. And I was like, no, don't get serious about. I had that feeling. But then to just the other side of that. I thought this was also true. And I'm curious what your take is here. I heard James Acaster talk. I don't really. I've never really listened to Foo Fighters, so I can't comment on this directly, but he said that. He's like. He's like. Dave Grohl said that after the second album, they were just like, we're just gonna have fun. And James Agasser was like. And that was the last good album they made. And so I thought, like, it's some kind of weird push and pull of this thing that is. And I'm just curious, like, how. How those two. They seem different, but I don't think they're at odds with each other.
- [59:09]
Austin Kleon
They're not. It's the parent and the child. You know, it's like. It's like when the kids just. When the kids is too free and running around, they're gonna get hurt. They're gonna do stupid, they're gonna break stuff, whatever. But if there's too much parent, none of that play stuff is gonna go. And I. I do think, like, with the book, like, I'm trying to. Like, if you have this problem where you would like to be more fun and playful in your work, I think this book will help you. You. But it's not the whole story, Right?
- [59:36]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [59:36]
Austin Kleon
Right. Like, I always think about how much of the stuff I love is because someone needed money. Like, I think money is really interesting, actually, creatively.
- [59:46]
Andy J. Pizza
And like.
- [59:47]
Austin Kleon
Like Mason Curry's new book. Like, I. I really admire that Mason kind of. It's a big topic, and he took it on but one of the things, it's called making art and making a living.
- [59:58]
Andy J. Pizza
Oh yeah, I saw that. Yeah.
- [59:59]
Austin Kleon
Any, any like started out, he was going to like tell the history of artists and money, and that was just a little too much for him to chew. And so instead the book is kind of like these stories of like different kinds of stories of where money came from. But one of the things I think is really interesting about money is like what happens to someone when they get like a MacArthur or like, or like, or like, you know, like, basically like there's a little bit like needing to make money can actually be a good catalyst to stuff that you didn't get before. Like one of my favorite examples is like the Godfather. Like Mario Puzzo, like needed money desperately. He was like in, like he was in debt and all this stuff. And like everyone had told him, you gotta write these stories about the mob. He's like, I don't want to do that. That's my time. Like, whatever. And then he does the Godfather and like changes the culture, you know. So like, that's one of my favorite stories. But it's also like, interesting. I always feel like if you have a favorite comedian who hasn't been on the road in a while, you should wish for them to get divorced.
- [61:03]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [61:04]
Austin Kleon
Because people who get divorced need money and then they go back on the road, right?
- [61:09]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, yeah. They get really industrious, you know, like
- [61:13]
Austin Kleon
my agent hates me because, I mean, you know, I've been married to the same person for almost 20 years and I, I have a good, I have a low interest rate on my mortgage and I don't have any debt and I keep my burn rate low. I'm like a nightmare client. Reason to. Books man. Right. So when I had kid, you know, so like you can always tell which writers have kids going to college.
- [61:35]
Andy J. Pizza
Like, yeah.
- [61:36]
Austin Kleon
You know, like some of these mid career artists, you're like, oh, they have kids going to school. I see that. I see you, you know, like the rushed book. The book. You're like, why they. It seems a little, you know, their kids, 19 tuition. Had to pay that. Barred tuition or whatever.
- [61:54]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [61:54]
Austin Kleon
Cal Poly, whatever.
- [61:55]
Andy J. Pizza
Okay, here's a question I've wanted to ask you. So I know you're like me, we're both embracing. Embrace guilty pleasures. Don't. You don't like the idea of that. But you have really good taste. And I'm curious, is there something that most people consider bad that you love?
- [62:14]
Austin Kleon
Oh, oh, yeah. Like, is my taste too good? Like, do I need some trash Here. See, this is the thing that, like, what's the more trashy stuff? Well, I mean, there's stuff that I don't think actually has any redeeming value. Like, I spent a whole year watching Below Deck. Like, I don't think people. It's a. It's a show about people who work on super yachts and people rent these yachts.
- [62:44]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [62:44]
Austin Kleon
And they're like, what happens to them? And I was just like, I went through a period of, like, just really, really liking Below Deck back.
- [62:53]
Andy J. Pizza
That's pretty good.
- [62:55]
Austin Kleon
I. I, like, genuinely love Phil Collins.
- [62:57]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [62:58]
Austin Kleon
Like, I genuinely love, like, Genesis. I've been trying to, like, really go back to my roots and embrace that. I aspire to, like, trash, but I'm also, like, a huge snob. Like, I'm someone who, like, has read Tolstoy, you know what I mean? So it's like, it's hard for me. Like, I love, like, like. But even something like Nancy now, everyone loves Nancy. There are books about how Nancy is like art, like the comic strip, you know? And so, like, even that kind of trash is like, I do need, like, more trash in my life. I'm trying to think. I, like, love Jack Black, but everyone loves Jack Black. Like, I love Nacho Libra. Like, that's like, that's a good.
- [63:35]
Andy J. Pizza
That's a good.
- [63:36]
Austin Kleon
I came to Nacho Libra late.
- [63:37]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [63:38]
Austin Kleon
In life. And it spoke to me deeply.
- [63:40]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [63:41]
Austin Kleon
And like, I don't even know if I'm supposed to like. Like, I have a. I have a Latino friend in Austin. He's like, I don't even know if I'm supposed to like Nacho Libros. Like, don't worry, that was made in
- [63:50]
Andy J. Pizza
a weird pocket where I was like,
- [63:53]
Austin Kleon
you know, it's like, okay.
- [63:54]
Andy J. Pizza
They got away with that in a way.
- [63:56]
Austin Kleon
Whatever Jack Black gets paid for, by the way, like, in his movies, it's completely worth it. Like, the work he's doing in these movies. Like, I. I actually, like. I actually really like the Minecraft movie now. I've, like, come along to it and. And then the Jumanji movies. How old are your kids?
- [64:17]
Andy J. Pizza
I've got a 17, 14 and a 11.
- [64:21]
Austin Kleon
Oh, yeah. So the Jumanji movies would be great for the. Have you watched the rock Jumanji movies? Oh, we watched the older one.
- [64:28]
Andy J. Pizza
Really like that. I bet my 11 year old will dig it. She like.
- [64:30]
Austin Kleon
Yeah.
- [64:30]
Andy J. Pizza
Like Jack Black. Of course. Yeah.
- [64:32]
Austin Kleon
You gotta watch the Jumanji, like the next level. Yeah, yeah. The ones with the. Where Jumanji is a video game. Yeah, they love that.
- [64:39]
Andy J. Pizza
Okay.
- [64:39]
Austin Kleon
Like, my kids deeply love Jumanji, and I do, too, so you need to watch that. Yeah, I need more trash. Like, I love Top Gun. Like, I think Top Gun is trash, but, like, I love it. It. Like, I love Top Gun.
- [64:50]
Andy J. Pizza
Those are good answers.
- [64:51]
Austin Kleon
I just watched Top Gun with my kids, and I was like, look.
- [64:54]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [64:55]
Austin Kleon
When papa was like, he watched us way too young. This is military propaganda. This is like a recruitment ad. But, like, you gotta watch this. And they were like, yeah, it's pretty cool, you know?
- [65:07]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [65:08]
Austin Kleon
So, yeah, that's great.
- [65:09]
Andy J. Pizza
Those are good, good answers.
- [65:10]
Austin Kleon
Arnold Schwarzenegger movies I love. Like. Like, Predator, Terminator. Commando is, like, one of my favorite movies. Commando is genuinely one of my favorite movies. I've watched Commando. Like, my friends and I in college would watch Commando, like, you know, every other week. We used to book the theater in our dorm because our dorm had a theater for whatever reason, and to have Commando showings. And then we'd have people read fake academic papers about Commando.
- [65:38]
Andy J. Pizza
That's a great prompt.
- [65:40]
Austin Kleon
That's the kind of nerds I. I was best friends with.
- [65:44]
Andy J. Pizza
I can see the connection. I feel like this could be in your next book. My last question is, what is. Do you have a. A Or some favorite part of this new book that you haven't talked about?
- [65:56]
Austin Kleon
Oh, yeah, I love. My favorite part of the book is the author page. Because I sometimes. So I really. This book was really just an excuse for me to get kids drawings in one of my books. I really just wanted, like, just one of my books that was, like, illustrated by the kids, basically. So the author page is my favorite because it's all pict pictures of me that the kids have drawn.
- [66:22]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [66:22]
Austin Kleon
Next to my actual picture. And the narcissist in me loves it. But also, the drawings are really strange. I. And this is. This is, like, kind of a fun thing to end on.
- [66:34]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [66:35]
Austin Kleon
I never understood why Jules used to draw my beard so big. Because I don't have that big of a beard, you know? But he would draw this big beard on me.
- [66:44]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [66:44]
Austin Kleon
And I was just like, why does he draw this? Like, this is so weird. And then I realized, finally, that if you're three feet tall and you're looking at a guy with a beard, you see the under. You see the under part of their beard. So the beard looks gigantic, just like an infinite. And a weird, like, you know, like, Tintin character or something. So, like, this is what we're trying to. So that's the other Thing that I would say is that if you pay attention again for the, for the parent part, the problem with having children, I think is that they show you. They show you all the parts of yourself that you didn't want to see.
- [67:22]
Andy J. Pizza
True.
- [67:24]
Austin Kleon
They show you all the good parts, but they also show you the parts that you don't want to see. And so it's. It's a creative act, you know, it's like. But they can show you things. And I think that's like the. That's the takeaway I want for people who. For people who are listening to this. If you've gotten this far and you hate kids, you don't want kids, which I don't blame you at all. Like, live your. Your child free life. It's awes. But I would make a plug for being the cool uncle or the cool auntie, like, grab some kids, spend some time with them, because I think they can show you the world in a way that you've lost or you never had to begin with. And. And then you can hand them right back.
- [68:03]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, I'm having that over and over. I had that cliche thought, you know, when you have a thought, it's a genuine thought and you're like, oh, that's something. Everybody says. I had this like a week ago of like, maybe man, really enjoying watching these movies with my son. It's like seeing the world through the first times. And I'm like, yeah, that's exactly what it is.
- [68:21]
Austin Kleon
That's exactly what happens. But you can borrow. There are lots of children that would. There were lots of parents that would love the day off.
- [68:29]
Andy J. Pizza
True, that. Yeah, that's so true.
- [68:31]
Austin Kleon
Borrow them. Take them to the museum. If they hate the museum, take them for ice cream.
- [68:34]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, that's great. That's great. Well, this is awesome. I could have talked to you for hours and hours.
- [68:39]
Austin Kleon
It's great to see you.
- [68:40]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah, you too. Where's the best place for people to look for your book?
- [68:44]
Austin Kleon
Oh, call the crib. Same number, same hood. AustinCleon.com is my website, and now I'll have links to my books. And the thing that I think most people. Even if you don't like my books, there are people who really like my weekly newsletter, which is just a list of 10 things that I share every Friday.
- [69:02]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah.
- [69:03]
Austin Kleon
And it's as varied and multifaceted as I think this conversation was.
- [69:09]
Andy J. Pizza
Yeah. And you've got great taste and you're always introducing me to stuff, so. Great way to land the plane, sir. Yeah. Great seeing you, man.
- [69:16]
Austin Kleon
Yeah. Great to see you.
- [69:34]
Andy J. Pizza
I'm back with the cta. You didn't really need me to do that. Austin gave us tons of actionable things you can do. But I'm just gonna put a little icing on the cake. It's called don't tell and show. And this was kind of a through line through our conversation. We started talking about, what do you do when you actually have to go present your project, your art to the world? And he talked about P.T. barnum and kind of getting into that show place, which I think we can have an allergy to as creative people. But it can be such an essential part. And he actually talks about in the book the idea of putting on a mask so that you can tell the truth. He talks about MF Doom and other artists that have, like, taken on characters to say things they couldn't say as themselves. And I think there's just something to this, like, the showmanship of launching your project. Don't be afraid to tell after you've shown the work. But then we later talked about or we touched on something that made me think, yeah, like what you don't want to do. Oh, he was talking about show. Show your pitch, show your thing. He was talking about it through the lens of make a presentation. Don't get talking about it, thinking about it. Just get showing about it. Like, start making, drawing. Make the presentation, make the slideshow, make the proposal. At least make the demo. Make the. The maquette. Make the. The dummy book. Like, get making. Don't tell anybody about it if you have nothing to show. I think that's so essential. I think it kind of matches with what I've heard about the brain science of. You know, when you tell people, too many people about your goal, your brain's like, you already did that. Like, because you got all the dopamine of them being like, yeah, nice one. What you want is to save that. If you really want to tell people about it, then use that energy to show them to make something instead so that you don't have to tell them. You can show it to them, and then, yeah, then you can talk about it. But that's my challenge to you. If you have something that you are just so pumped about, so excited about a new project that you desperately want to tell everybody about, resist that urge and instead sublimate and channel that energy into action. Action. And then once you have something to show for it, then you can start talking about it. I think that's just a really useful shift that I need myself massive. Thanks to Austin Kleon for coming on the show. Hopefully he comes back again soon. I just really had a great time talking with them and it's one of those scenarios where when we turned off the mics we ended up talking a bunch more about all kinds of stuff that was also really juicy that I'd love to have him come back back and talk about in the future. Thanks. Don't forget, go check out his book. It's full of great stuff. It is called Don't Call It Art and there's just so much good stuff. If you're looking for how to silence or quiet that editor until you need them to come back in the room and have fun again, remember what you like about this again. So thanks Austin Massive thanks to Sophie Miller for being an editor and producer on the show. Thanks to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for audio edits, video edits, sound design and animation. Thanks to Yoni Wolf in the band Y for our theme music and soundtrack. And until we speak again, stay Pepped up.
- [73:02]
Austin Kleon
Foreign. Have you ever wondered why Reese Witherspoon founded hello Sunshine? Or where Kevin o' Leary got his start? Or even how Alex Earle became the most accessible founder to someone who may not even consider this space? Enter the Founder Mindset, the new podcast from Harvard Business School Founder Foundry hosted by me, Reza Satchu. As a leading educator in entrepreneurship, I've built multiple high profile companies and mentored thousands of students and founders through the realities of starting and scaling ventures. And with the Founder Mindset, I'm sharing those lessons with you by sitting down with world class entrepreneurs including Witherspoon, o' Leary and Earl, plus Tim Ferriss and many more to break down exactly how how they commit, decide and build for impact. These aren't surface level interviews. Each episode I challenge my guests to revisit their toughest moments, their boldest decisions and the mindset that carried them through. Follow the Founder Mindset wherever you get your podcasts. From artificial intelligence to the gig economy to global volatility, the economy is changing
- [74:18]
Andy J. Pizza
at a dizzying point pace.
- [74:20]
Austin Kleon
Enter the Managing the Future of Work
- [74:22]
Andy J. Pizza
podcast, the chart topping and critically acclaimed podcast from Harvard Business School. Hosted by me, Bill Kerr and by
- [74:30]
Austin Kleon
Managing the Future of Work project Co
- [74:32]
Andy J. Pizza
Chair Joe Fuller, this show explores technology trends, demographic changes, the rise of the care economy and many other forces transforming
- [74:42]
Austin Kleon
the landscape of work.
- [74:44]
Andy J. Pizza
We'll highlight the insight insights of business leaders, technologists and experts like Business Roundtable's Kristen Silberg on corporate workforce strategy and Khan Academy founder Sal Khan on AI education and the future of work with more than two and a half million downloads and close to 300 episodes, there
- [75:03]
Austin Kleon
is something for everyone. Follow HBS Managing the future of work
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Andy J. Pizza
on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening, listening now.