CPT Presents: The Ghost Frame Podcast Episode 1 "The Endless Hallway"

Summary

Creative Pep Talk Presents: Ghost Frame Podcast Episode 1 - "The Endless Hallway"

Hosted by Andy J. Pizza

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Introduction: Bridging Creative Challenges

In this special presentation, Andy J. Pizza introduces the inaugural episode of the Ghost Frame Podcast, a narrative nonfiction series created by his friend Sarah Beth Morgan, also known as Wonderful in the animation motion world. Andy emphasizes the podcast's relevance to Creative Pep Talk listeners by highlighting its exploration of the turbulent landscape within the commercial animation industry. He notes the series' focus on navigating career uncertainties and creative transitions, themes that resonate deeply with many creatives today.

"How do you navigate your creative practice in times this uncertain and this unstable? How do you manage your emotions in that space well enough to continue to show up?"
— Andy J. Pizza [02:00]

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Episode Overview: "The Endless Hallway"

Sarah Beth Morgan delves into the metaphorical concept of an endless hallway to represent her current life and career transitions. She invites listeners to visualize standing in a long hallway with multiple doors, each symbolizing different paths and possibilities.

"Hi, I'm Sarah Beth Morgan, and I am currently stuck in said hallway. In the past three years, I've moved across the country, had a baby, experienced postpartum depression, and am now going through a bit of a career crisis, one might say."
— Sarah Beth Morgan [04:00]

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Industry Turmoil: The Impact of AI and COVID-19

Sarah discusses the dual challenges posed by the rise of Artificial Intelligence (AI) and the aftermath of COVID-19 on the animation and motion design industry. She highlights how AI-driven automation has led to job losses and shifts in project budgets, making the industry more volatile.

"For the record's sake, it is the year 2025 and artificial intelligence technology is booming... Cannabis just made headlines with its, in my opinion, atrocious AI-generated holiday commercial."
— Sarah Beth Morgan [07:00]

Rachel Oftadal, a guest, echoes these sentiments, expressing frustration with the current economic climate and its effects on job security.

"We live in a society where young adults having two jobs is a societal norm. Just to be able to afford food and pay rent because everything is so fucking expensive."
— Rachel Oftadal [08:11]

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Personal Crisis: Navigating Midlife and Creativity

Sarah opens up about her personal struggles, including moving, motherhood, and questioning her career path. She grapples with whether to continue in motion design or pivot to other creative endeavors like ceramics or branding.

"Do I want to be contributing to and benefiting from big tech companies? Is my art too commercialized now? Does my design style look like everyone else's?"
— Sarah Beth Morgan [09:14]

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Guest Insights: Stories of Transition and Resilience

Kruthi Hindupur, another guest, shares her journey from aerospace engineering to motion design. Her decision was fueled by personal struggles and a desire to pursue her passion for animation, illustrating that career changes, while challenging, can lead to fulfilling outcomes.

"I realized that this PhD I was not doing for myself. I was doing my PhD to impress everyone around me or like satisfy everyone around me."
— Kruthi Hindupur [17:16]

Alec Cummings provides a contrasting narrative, detailing his complete shift from motion design to becoming a Sommelier. His story underscores the unpredictability of career paths and the importance of following one's passion, even when it leads to entirely different fields.

"After taking an intense, honestly way harder than expected test that included an actual wine tasting, I realized that I might want to take this more seriously."
— Alec Cummings [26:10]

Alec further discusses the risks and rewards of his career switch, emphasizing the volatile nature of the restaurant industry and the personal satisfaction he finds in his new role.

"When it becomes a thing that you're relying on to make money, that's totally different. I would ask myself if I had stayed in the much more lucrative motion design industry, like I would have extra money to be able to taste and experience the same things that I'm experiencing now, but from the guest's perspective."
— Alec Cummings [33:42]

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Reflections: Embracing Change and Finding Balance

Sarah reflects on the shared experiences of her guests, recognizing that career uncertainty is a universal challenge. She draws parallels between her journey and those of Kruthi and Alec, finding comfort in their resilience and adaptability.

"Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. Historically, I'm good at change, but my goodness, does it feel rough when I'm deep in the middle of it."
— Sarah Beth Morgan [40:31]

She underscores the importance of trusting the natural ebb and flow of career trajectories, likening them to the growth of her child—something that unfolds over time and reveals its progress only upon reflection.

"Maybe your career too... If someone else did it and landed happily, why can't I?"
— Sarah Beth Morgan [42:22]

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Conclusions: Moving Forward with Confidence

In the concluding segments, Sarah synthesizes the insights from her conversations, reaffirming her belief in the cyclical nature of careers and creativity. She encourages listeners to embrace transitions, remain patient, and continue exploring their metaphorical hallways.

"Careers are fluid, creativity is fluid. We just have to be patient."
— Sarah Beth Morgan [42:22]

Sarah leaves listeners with a sense of hope and encouragement, reminding them that even amidst uncertainty, their creative capabilities can lead them to new and fulfilling paths.

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Final Thoughts

"The Endless Hallway" serves as a profound exploration of personal and professional upheaval within the creative industries. Through candid discussions and relatable stories, Sarah Beth Morgan and her guests illuminate the challenges and triumphs of navigating career transitions in a rapidly changing world. This episode offers solace and inspiration to creatives facing their own "endless hallways," encouraging them to keep moving forward with resilience and an open mind.

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For more insights and to explore the full Ghost Frame Podcast series, visit creativepeptalk.com and andyjpizza.com.

Transcript

[Host]

Hey, y'. All. This week is a little bit different. This episode actually comes from a different podcast called Ghost Frame. This narrative nonfiction podcast series was created by a friend of mine that you may know from the animation motion world, Sarah Beth Morgan, AKA Wonderful. Sarah Beth reached out to me to tell me about the series and asked me to be a part of it on the final episode, which just recently aired. And the more that I dove into the series, the more relevant that I thought it was to the listeners of this show. So I decided to share it in our feed. On the surface, Ghost Frame is about how the commercial animation industry has been going through tough times and how things have been in massive flux and what that's been like as a freelance illustrator working in that industry, as Sarah Beth has been. And I know that mirrors what a lot of folks in all creative industries are experiencing these days. Uncertain times, fears of big changes on the horizon. So that alone made it super relevant. But underneath the surface, it's a bit about coming to midlife, but even more so in the abstract. It's about being in transition, with which I know so many of us feel. Just with how everything is rapidly changing when before is gone and after hasn't really materialized. How do you navigate your creative practice in times this uncertain and this unstable? How do you manage your emotions in that space well enough to continue to show up? I think this series does an excellent job at grappling with these really big questions, and I found a lot of comfort and insight from it as well. So this episode is episode one of the Ghost Frame podcast. Hope you love it as much as I did and I hope you check it out. Check out the rest of the series. It's a five episode series. After you listen to this one, you can find it wherever you listen to podcasts or click the link in the show notes. This series features folks like me, legendary animator Julia Pot, and of course, Sarah Beth Morgan, and a whole lot of other creative perspectives. I think you're gonna love it. So, without further ado, here is the episode one of the Ghost Frame podcast.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

Testing, testing. You'll have to excuse me, I'm new to this. You see, I normally draw things for a living, so this whole audio with no corresponding visual is foreign to me. But I've been thinking a lot about the world and how my life and career connect to it, and it all just felt too big for me to keep stored exclusively in my brain. So here we are. Me blabbing, you listening. I know you don't know me, but you're Here. So I figure you're probably along for the ride. Can you indulge me for a minute? I want to try something. You ready? Close your eyes. Imagine you're standing in a long, narrow hallway. There are doors on either side of you that continue down the length of the space. It's quiet, but the air sizzles with suspense. What's behind each door? Where will each path take you? Maybe one opens to reveal your past life, a visual list of all the steps you've taken so far. Another opens to a hopeful scene, an airy, sunlit sky. Or maybe one door opens to yet another hallway full of doors. More possibilities. Which door will you open? Now that we've got that over with? Hi, I'm Sarah Beth Morgan, and I am currently stuck in said hallway. In the past three years, I've moved across the country, had a baby, experienced postpartum depression, and am now going through a bit of a career crisis, one might say. Behind one of these doors is my next move. And during our time together, I'm going to peek into a few of them and even talk to people who live in each room. Sam welcome to the first episode of Ghost Frame, the animation podcast in which we're currently exploring a metaphorical yet spooky hallway. A hallway that I've been struggling to navigate. Now, before we traverse this ethereal severance like space, which, by the way, great show. I'm going to try to describe to you what I do for a living. As many people in my industry know, this is sometimes harder than it sounds. I actually asked my family if they could describe it for me to kind of give you a better idea of what I mean. Art stuff. She designs motion stuff and commercials. I would say that you're a digital.

[Julia Pot]

Artist, that you also enjoy actually creating.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

With your hands and paint because you've done many murals, you are an art director, you love to illustrate for animation.

[Julia Pot]

But you don't really do much of the animation yourself. A very versatile artist who does almost everything.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

Oh, thank you. I'll take it. To repeat the wise words of my sister, I do art stuff, but my main gig is in motion graphics. And if you don't know what that is, what motion design is, let me tell you, it is everywhere. Do you ever think about who creates the snazzy text that lives on screen during a football game? Or the names of reporters floating on screen during a news program? How about those little cute animated characters in your Duolingo app? Or those cute 3D Airbnb pre roll ads that play on Hulu or YouTube. Well, that's us. Me specifically. I design the visuals and someone else animates them, bringing them to life. In some cases, I get to lead the entire team and direct both the design and animation portions of a project. I've had the chance to work on projects for tech giants like Apple and Google, but also more playful brands like Bath and Body Works or Chipotle. I've even had my own short animated film screen at film festivals and won a few awards. I've been on this unswerving career path since I graduated college in 2014 with a Bachelor's of Fine Art in Motion Design. Until now, I didn't falter. I never felt like a distinct point where I asked myself, what's next? I'd grown confident in my upward trajectory and landed where I am now, working for myself at the level of director. I know it's a privileged position to be in, to just say I did it and it happened. I mean, sure, I worked hard, but I had the funds to attend a nice college and a family and a husband to help support my dreams along the way. I know this isn't the case for everyone, so I'm well aware that this career crisis may feel trivial to some, but I also know that it's a universal concept that many are feeling right now, especially in the creative industry. For the record's sake, it is the year 2025 and artificial intelligence technology is booming. Massive data centers are being built around the world to run this technology. Coca Cola just made headlines with its, in my opinion, atrocious AI generated holiday commercial. I don't know, I feel like this TikTok user Christine Choi, summed it up pretty nicely.

[Rachel Oftadal]

We have a supercomputer named Willow who confirmed the existence of parallel universes. We have aliens in the ocean, drones in the sky, volcano sharks, the threat of World War 3, and not to mention, we live in a society where young adults having two jobs is a societal norm. Just to be able to afford food and pay rent because everything is so fucking expensive and minimum wage is relatively the same.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

Did we all like, die in 2020.

[Rachel Oftadal]

And this is our new hell? Because I know too much. I should have been born as a bike or something. Get me off this timeline.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

I've had enough.

[Rachel Oftadal]

I've had enough.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

Okay, Wow. I mean, when you put it that way, it sounds pretty terrible, but I have had friends who were turned down from jobs because the client decided to go with AI instead. Covid happened and threw the world into chaos, and upon recovery, many companies deprioritized art making for pressing economical matters. I personally have had an embarrassingly slow past two years of work coming in myself. And now with a new president and economy, there's so much uncertainty swimming around us that I feel like I'm drowning. And I'm not alone in this feeling.

[Julia Pot]

Exactly.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

Yeah. No, it's cold comfort that pretty much all of us are in it. That's my friend Rachel. She too has been feeling the same things I'm feeling lately. I specifically wanted to talk to her about her breadth of experience in my industry, which we'll dive into in a later episode. But it was also interesting to hear that someone with so much history in the motion design world was also feeling adrift. It made me feel validated, but then I think it imploded because the entire economy got devastated by Covid and everything that it did. And while we were still spending, spending, spending in 2020 and 2021, the whiplash from that started to hit in 2022. And I feel like that's when the industry started to really crumble because people started to really look at budgets and I mean, we all know what 2023 and 2024 were. Those were two of my worst years of freelance in history. Will Johnson, partner at the animation studio Scholar and my former boss, feels it too.

[Julia Pot]

It's just been kind of bubbling for so long, and I think now it's like slamming right into the windshield. It's changing things, but I imagine it's like when we change from film to digital, right? It like it's. Everybody has to kind of shift the whole paradigm. The whole everything kind of like moves, but it's going to be similar. We just have to navigate. It's just happening so fast right now. That's the hard part. It's like so in your face, the iterations, the expectations, everything in that capacity has changed. So what does that mean for all of us? And then us all coming to grips with the existential dread that exists outside of that. That's why everybody is tired right now.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

So you can see everything is just so confusing right now for the entire world, for probably so many industries, also our industry, and then whittle that all down to our singular lives. Up until this point in my life, I never really thought about changing my career path or even just moving career adjacent. But let me tell y', all, having a baby makes you question a lot of life things. Besides birthing a literal child from my body at one of the most uncertain times in our industry, I also have been mulling over big Philosophical life questions like do I want to be contributing to and benefiting from big tech companies? Is my art too commercialized now? Does my design style look like everyone else's? But what if I enjoy making silly ceramics more? Should I try doing that instead? Is it still a hobby if it becomes monetized, Will it still be enjoyable? What's the point of having a hobby anyways? Is having a hobby about satisfying my own creative energy? Or is it about showing other people online that I'm making stuff so they'll follow me and give me money? Do I need social media to be successful? Will people still hire me if I'm not chronically online? Can you tell I've been spiraling? If you're like me and you live in this chaotic world and you work alone in a home office by yourself and you have even a lick of anxiety, you probably have been spiraling a little bit too. Working alone all day and then talking only to your partner who you spend every second with. And a 2 year old who can't form full sentences, it turns out, is the perfect recipe for a nice steamy spiral soup. What better way to dump this soup down the proverbial drain than to get out of my own head? I decided I wanted to answer a question for myself. Well, technically, a few questions. Maybe a lot of questions. That's probably why I'm making an entire podcast about it. So here's my first question. Am I even in the right industry? And a couple follow up questions because I truly can't imagine myself doing anything full time that's not creative. Is motion design right for me? Do I want to work in a career adjacent industry? I did pursue murals and children's books last year. Maybe I should focus on that. I'm also pretty good at branding. Could I try that instead? After the break I get some answers. I catch up with an old friend who left a surprisingly different industry for the animation world.

[Host]

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[Sarah Beth Morgan]

Hey, it's me again. Before the break, I was spiraling and I wanted to do something about it. I decided to reach out to my friend Kruthi. You see, she happened upon the motion design industry in an entirely different way than me. Her career path has been drastically different than mine and I thought maybe this would help put things in perspective. And hey, I think I was right.

[Rachel Oftadal]

I am a technical director and I work with projects where there's a lot of data that needs to be modular and I automate the production workflows. And I currently live in India, but I also go to Germany back and forth.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

So to summarize, Kruti's in the same industry as me, but we work in different pipelines, we work on different parts of projects that don't really overlap. We caught up over a video call and she acknowledged that our industry is in a pickle too, even from her side of things. Okay, so continue what you were saying about this year, because that is like a cornerstone of what I'm doing right now. I'm like, I'm not getting work. No one's getting work. Like, what's happening?

[Rachel Oftadal]

Seriously. I mean, I actually thought of quitting LinkedIn because of how depressing it was getting. Because, you know, people with experience of like 20 years are being laid off or like they're posting on LinkedIn saying that they're available for work. And I think if people like you are looking for work, the people who have entered the industry like a couple of years ago have no chance. Like, where do we Even go like, it is so hard not to lose hope.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

Yeah, exactly.

[Rachel Oftadal]

And like, try to keep doing what you're doing. Like initially, at least in the beginning of the year, I was trying to do as many personal projects as possible and like trying to reach out to people. Eventually it got so depressing. I was screaming into the void.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

Like many of my friends in the animation and motion design industry, I've never actually met Kruthi in person. We first connected online a few years ago when she attended Hyperisland, an intensive creative college in Sweden. She reached out via email, inviting me to be her industry mentor. I agreed, and when we did our first call, I was blindsided when she told me she was switching to animation after pursuing a PhD in aerospace engineering. Like, what? I couldn't imagine leaving something so important sounding to pursue a creative path.

[Rachel Oftadal]

I was starting my PhD in aerospace engineering. Honestly, the PhD itself was good. My professors were good, the topic was so interesting. But mentally I was not in a good place. I was so depressed and I knew that I needed help. And when my nephew was born, I had come to India and I was home. And once I started talking to a therapist, I realized that this PhD I was not doing for myself. I was doing my PhD to impress everyone around me or like satisfy everyone around me. And this had been the case for as long as I can remember. Like, the need to achieve more and more just so that I don't disappoint people around me that had to stop. So I quit my PhD and then one thing that I always wanted to do was learn how to animate. This was something that I had thought about when I was a kid, when I was maybe like fourth grade or fifth grade. And then I never thought about it again. But then, because I was not doing anything and Covid was just starting here in India and it was looking like I was not going to get out of India anytime soon. So there was no possibility of continuing the PhD. So I was like, yeah, maybe, you know, I should take skillshare subscription and like start animating.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

After coming to this very personal and heavy realization during COVID like many of us did, Kruti started taking more online animation courses and eventually stumbled across Hyperisland. During her research, she applied and to her excitement, she got in. She was so excited, in fact, that she started an online Facebook group for members of her class. People came to know her via the Internet. She made Internet friends. Then she packed up her bags, hugged her family goodbye, and was off to start her new adventure in an entirely new country. And her creative Internet friends finally became her real friends.

[Rachel Oftadal]

When I got into Hyper island, right, like, I hadn't even moved to Stockholm yet, but we had, like, a community page on Facebook and I, I, I started a page for just Motion Creative and made like a WhatsApp group and everything. And then once I actually went to Hyper Island, I just introduced myself, like, I'm Kruti. Somehow everyone knew me. They were like, oh, you're the person who's like, the unofficial representative of us. Because, like, you are the one who put everyone in touch with everyone. Like, I had helped a few people with, like, their visa applications, with, like, their finding their accommodation. And I don't know why I did it. I just did it. Like, I was not expecting anything. I was just so excited that I was going to be able to do this. I was like, okay, I'll help you in any way I can. And I remember this exact moment when it was international people's orientation. And we got there and everyone was introducing and I was just standing there. And one girl comes, like, she introduces herself and I'm like, oh, hey, I'm Kruti. She's like, oh, my God, you're so famous in the group. I'm like, huh? It was so surprising to me because just a year and a half ago, I was at the lowest of my lows, right? Like, I was so depressed, I was barely talking to anyone and I was having panic attacks anytime I was in a social situation. But there I was a year and a half later and I'm like, the most popular person in the class. And I was like, what?

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

You've just got an infectious personality. You're, you're easy to talk to. You love what you're doing. And it just goes to show that, like, you were in the right place.

[Rachel Oftadal]

Exactly right. Because I had definitely not felt this confident when I was in my Masters. I felt like I was an imposter. I would just hide in my corner. I mean, of course I would go hang out with people and everything, but especially in, like, an academic scenario, I was not as outgoing because it just felt like I did not belong. But here it was just so easy for me to fit in. And I think that made doing all of these social things a lot easier. I definitely would not have imagined I would be in that position.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

I loved hearing about Kruti's origin story because it just felt destined to be. She opened the metaphorical hallway door to her room. Room that fit her perfectly. She stepped beyond the threshold and found warm, welcoming arms and pieces to puzzles that just clicked into place. That's not to say she can't take a trek down the hallway some other time in her life. But for now, the room she's in feels like a perfect fit. I don't know that I really had a crazy 180 moment where I suddenly felt like everything was meant to be. However, for me, everything also fell into place pretty naturally. That's why I'm unsure that I need to completely switch things up. I think the room I'm living in just feels a little crusty or empty or it doesn't fit my life anymore. Maybe it's like squeezing a family of three plus a dog into a small one bedroom apartment. And one of those is a tornado toddler throwing legos all over the floor and you keep stepping on them when you're not wearing shoes. So I guess I'm looking for a new place to live. It doesn't have to be in a new building, but maybe we could add an extra bedroom that wasn't there before. Or two, in case we want to have some friends over for a night of wine drinking debauchery or something. Speaking of wine, you want to know something crazy? While talking to Kruthi about her entrance to the motion industry, I remembered my friend Alec, who had quite the opposite journey. Don't worry, I'll get to the wine part in a minute. Alec and I crossed paths in 2016 when I was working as a staff employee at a motion studio called Oddfellows and he was freelance animating there. I have fond memories of working on Google jobs together. Me designing cute dogs and chefs and him animating cute dogs or chefs using mixing bowls. He was always so easygoing and fun to work with.

[Julia Pot]

My name is Alec Cummings. I'm from Berkeley, California. I am the wine director at the Morris restaurant in San Francisco. And now I'm the wine director at another restaurant called Seren that we're open opening up in Oakland.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

Plot twist, right? I hadn't caught up with Alec in years, so I was excited to hear about his experience leaving the industry a complete 180 from what Kruti did.

[Julia Pot]

It happened quickly. I mean, at this point now it's been over six years and it really started as a little trickle. I've always really been interested in beverage in general, how things are made from spirits to beer to wine. At first I was really into spirits and cocktails. I don't know how familiar you are with San Francisco, but there's like this speakeasy bar that was really popular 10 or 15 years ago called Urban and Branch. But they would do like cocktail classes. I went at least five times just to learn how to like taste and make cocktails. Anyways, I learned that having a bar to make cocktails at home was really cumbersome. Having all those ingredients and fresh juices and stuff all the time. So that's sort of how I got into wine is because everything that you need is just in the bottle, ready to go. It was through tasting and exploring that I realized that you can really dive deep into it and there's a lot to learn. And once you learn one thing, it's sort of like you realize the potential to. To learn about that thing is just felt infinite. And that my ignorance in general on wine and beverage felt fast as well. So I wanted to like keep diving into it. And it became a very passionate hobby alongside just my motion graphic career.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

Alex started pursuing his wine journey while working freelance at the animation studio Odd Fellows. Every Tuesday after work, he'd walk up from their tiny motion studio in the San Francisco Mission District to a random Holiday Inn on Van Ness Avenue to take a two hour wine class. He dove in deep, studying for a huge exam that might open a new hallway for him in the wine industry. A new path. After taking an intense, honestly way harder than expected test that included an actual wine tasting, he realized that he might want to take this more seriously. Hobby. It was at this point, coincidentally, that Oddfellows thought they might stop using their studio in San Francisco. And that put Alec at a crossroads. Maybe it was fate.

[Julia Pot]

And it was after that when I started thinking about, oh, what if, like I could take this more seriously? You know, what if this is more, more than just a hobby for me? By the way, I still think very fondly of those days. Part of the reason why I feel like I left the animation industry was not because I didn't like animating. I really loved problem solving. I loved making things move. It was really, it still is like very satisfying to get a thing to like feel right, you know, and just keyframe it and have mastery over that. The hard part for me was like being hired by people to be used as their hands and just like having to be put in this box and not be able to really express anything creatively. It's just about putting things on a canvas with colors that they want. And I don't know, it just sort of burned me out over time because that was most of my work.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

I too sometimes feel the same way Alec does. I love the part of my job where I get to draw beautiful things and see them come to life through animation. I love problem solving and storytelling. I love coming up with a clever concept that makes the client ooh and ah. I love the people I work with. I love building teams and introducing talented people to other talented people to see what work they make together. But sometimes when the world feels like it's falling apart like it does now, it seems like I'm contributing to something I don't want to be a part of. I don't know if I want to feed into the advertising industry that's selling social media and harmful products to our souls and our kids. Maybe I'm getting too existential, and anyone in any industry could argue this, but it definitely gives me pause when I think about it too hard. We're going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we'll dig into the knit and grit of how Alec decided to change career paths. And we're back. When I was chatting with Alec, the animator turned sommelier, I really wanted to hear more about how this actually happened. Was there a specific, definitive moment that made him change his mind completely, or did it happen gradually over time? Well, okay, so you pass the exam, I assume?

[Julia Pot]

Yeah, yeah, passed. My mind was blown by that. And so then I. I started, like, shifting my focus to wine and travels. You know, my wife Jen and I would often go on trips. And then. Then it became, like, going to trips to Healdsburg and Sonoma and Napa where we could taste wine. And then so all those classes were like, I want to say, 2016 and 17. And then we got married in 2018 and went on our honeymoon shortly after. And we went to France, you know, and we tasted a ton of wine there. We went to All Sauce, and we went to Burgundy. And then we went to Lyon, which is just a great food and wine town just south of Burgundy. And then we came back and I went to this place called the Morris. It's the restaurant that I work now. And I just went as a guest. At that point, in terms of my motion graphics career, I was feeling pretty burnt out in general. I felt like I was just working all the time and on stuff that I didn't really necessarily want to work on. I took, like, six months off to work on a short film that we ended up submitting to a bunch of places. And it gained a little bit of ground and some viewership, which was nice. And what I told myself when I graduated, I was like, I feel like I will be happy with myself if I can, like, Make a short film and submit it to great film festivals and have it be accepted. And then that happened. So I did that and then I just went back to working, client work. And I just felt it was weird. I felt sort of done. I don't know, I felt tired. I felt like I needed a break from was. After I had dinner at the Morris, I met the owner there, Paul Einbund. He's also saw me. He's been in the industry for 30 years, doing it in here in San Francisco and LA. And his style of service was so warm, so generous. He had another guest in the restaurant who was opening all these old insane bottles of Bordeaux and he caught our table peeking over at him while he was decanting the Bordeaux into some decanters. And he was like, oh, he picked up on the fact that we were super interested in watching, right? So he ended up bringing some of the wines over to taste with us and tell us about him. He opened for us this beautiful bottle of Syrah from Cote Roti. I still remember the bottle. It's a 2012 Benetier and that was one of the best bottles ever had in my life. We still have some of those bottles in our cellar and I hold them very closely. I don't sell them to just anyone. That was insane. So it was a very memorable night. And it was because of that night that I eventually reached out to him and was like, listen, I'm considering, like seeing if I can supplement my professional time with some part time work in the wine industry. Like, do you have a second to chat just about how I might be able to do that? I just want to learn from your experience and see if you might be able to offer any advice for me to figure it out. I eventually went and had lunch at the restaurant and we talked for an hour and that conversation eventually led to him being like, well, if you want to ever just try being a busser at a restaurant, you can try that here. You know, it won't be easy. Restaurants are much harder than people think. And I learned quickly that they are very, very hard. But that sort of got the ball rolling and I followed up and it was just a series of doors that opened and I just walked into them. I was like, I gotta explore it. I might as well.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

Alec, it seemed, was also out of fork in the hallway, as the old saying goes. He decided to talk to one of the studio owners at the company we were working at, Odd Fellows, to see what he thought. One thing I love about our industry is that everyone's typically Pretty honest and forgiving. You talk to someone about leaving the industry and they'll give it to you straight.

[Julia Pot]

I had a choice to just do this because I was going to spend less time going to that annex. Everything was just sort of pointing to giving it a go. And one night a week as a busser turned into two pretty quickly. And then they were like, you seem to really want to be doing this. Do you want to be an expediter, which is like the person between the kitchen and the front of house. They were like, you can be full time if you want. And that's when I was considering the financial numbers because there is decent money in motion design and there is no money in restaurants.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

It seems like a risk that you had to take in order to get where you are now.

[Julia Pot]

Huge risk. And I didn't know if it was going to pay off. So I was just flying by the seat of my pants and just walking into the doors that were opening for me. At that point, it was like my eyes were like this big and I was just learning about all the food, all the product, all the wine. Paul and then the heads. Only at the time, Jenna, are just like handing me wines to taste. These insane wines now I feel privileged to have been able to taste them with so little experience. And I felt that if I stayed, this was part of the thinking too, is that if I stayed in animation, what am I going to do? Continue to be a freelancer until I retire? Am I going to open a studio? Am I going to go full time at an ad agency? Like, all these sort of avenues didn't really feel appealing. That added to, like, just the desire to want to push a different button.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

It was at this point that Alec decided to finally open a new door and truly pursue his new passion. He started at the very bottom at the Morris, working as expediter, and he quickly moved up to server and then to assistant sommelier at an exceedingly quick pace. Then, in the middle of the pandemic, after a departure from the head sommelier, Alec took their place. That was that. And a little over two years later, after training and mentoring by his boss, the whole program was handed over to him. Big moves. It feels like it was meant to be. Like, this is what you were meant.

[Julia Pot]

To do, you know, it came with a lot of very. Just heads down, hard work, a lot of grit. Like I said, restaurants are not an easy business. And I still have my qualms with how restaurants work in general. And just the business side of it that, you know, everyone always says the margins are so low, and they are like, things are teetering on the edge all the time. And I'm happy that we made it through the pandemic and we're busy, but I'm tired.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

Damn it, Alec. I'm tired, too. Something about having an existential crisis just really takes it out of you. Oh, and probably running a restaurant, too. Okay, I have to admit, as an avid streaming addict, there's one more question I had to ask Alec, but the Bear, like, does it feel like, is there any truth in that show or is it just.

[Julia Pot]

Yeah, I think that. I mean, honestly, I've only seen snippets here and there. I didn't watch the whole thing. And the reasoning behind that was like, I don't want to go home from work and then be at work again by watching this show.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

Yeah, I was like, that might give you, like, ptsd. You're like, oh.

[Julia Pot]

But I wouldn't say, based on what I've seen, at least at the Morris, I wouldn't say the culture is like that. And obviously there's some truth to that show. But fortunately, at least as I've been in a more sort of managerial role, we try to, like, bring people up and have it be all about learning and less about pretense and intensity, which I'm glad for. If I wouldn't have probably lasted as long as I have if the Morris was like the Bear. You know what I mean?

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

Well, yeah. And it sounds like Paul gave you a lot of really cool opportunities. Like, it sounds like he really nurtured your.

[Julia Pot]

I'm very, very lucky.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

That's really cool and rare.

[Rachel Oftadal]

I feel like.

[Julia Pot]

Yeah, I think he could see how hard I was working and how much I wanted to just be there. And so, like I said, you just continue to walk it through doors and always be the person when someone leaves or an opportunity exists. Being the first person that they see and then being the one to do it. That's just how I approached every situation there, because I thought, there's no other way for me to get the most out of this than to do it this way. You know, I have to sort of just go for it, and if it's not for me, I'll leave. And trust me, there have been many, many times over the course of these six years where it's like, I don't know if this is for me. And it's because the restaurant industry is so volatile, whether it be because of money, just the intensity of a night, or butting heads with co workers. Like, there's a lot of volatility in restaurants. It's not a bunch of awesome creative nerds. You know, you get feedback instantly. You don't send an email and wait for feedback. You could screw up enormously. And then you have to go back and interact with the guests, you know, and try to make it better. Like there was just so many things to learn and I didn't realize how awkward of a dude I was, you know, I feel like I'm still awkward. No, but that was a muscle that had to just like, just had to always be working out that muscle. You know, being so guest facing and working with people live so hard. It's wild. I can't believe that it's happening.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

I was happy to hear that Alec found his calling in wine. What a completely different career path. It was kind of crazy to hear, but it did sound like there had always been this question lingering in the back of his mind. Did I make the right decision?

[Julia Pot]

Yeah, I guess I'm lucky in that way in that I had something I was really passionate about. But like I said, there have been many points where I've questioned and I still do sometimes question whether or not it was the right move to make the switch. You know, when it comes to turning your passion into a profession, once that happens, it changed my perspective of the passion. I'm obviously still passionate about it, about wine and beverage in general and now about hospitality and service. But when it becomes a thing that you're relying on to make money, that's totally different. You know, I would ask myself if I had stayed in the much more lucrative motion design industry, like I would have extra money to be able to taste and experience the same things that I'm experiencing now, but from the guest's perspective. And would that have been the better choice, you know, to be able to be doing this but not have it be my profession? It's a really tough question and I get sort of anxious thinking about it because there's no right answer. And this is just the path that I took. It's just in my nature, I suppose. You just keep going and going and trying to get better and better and digging deeper, for better or for worse. But it's an interesting question, you know, if you ever find your passion or you find something you're really interested in, like, do you really want to make that your job? Because it's important to have money and sometimes you just want to be able to spend the money on the thing you're passionate about and not have it be the thing that Makes you money, you know? Does that make sense? I don't know how to say that eloquently.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

It kind of just goes to show that no matter where you are, you're probably always going to be questioning it a little bit. And you're also, like, especially as a creative, questioning whether it should have stayed a hobby. Because I feel like I. I mean, I've always done art since I started my career, but, like, when I was a kid, I felt like, so free to explore all the different types of art I could do, you know, it was, like, fun. And I would spend hours at nighttime working on it. And now as an adult, I'm like, I don't want to spend my free time doing art because I do it all day. So, yeah, it's just kind of interesting to hear that on the other side of that decision could be the same question.

[Julia Pot]

It's a big circle. It's about finding balance. At the end of the day.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

What Alec was saying was striking a chord for me, truly. For some reason, after I had my baby, I felt this creative hole inside of me. I felt this desire to create art that wasn't just really for work. Something just for me, not for my baby, not for a client. You know, just something to completely lose myself in the same way I used to when I was a kid. Downloading a hacked version of Photoshop and photo compositing my friend onto the back of a dolphin until three in the morning or learning HTML to add some cool glitter to my MySpace page. Those were the good old days. For real, though, that was stuff I enjoyed doing. No deadlines, no one giving me direction. Sometimes I find having no direction hard, but when I started taking a ceramics class in 2022, I suddenly regained a bit of this creative spirit. The hole in my creative conscious was beginning to fill up slowly. Something about going to a space that wasn't my own for three hours and someone saying make stuff was what I needed. I was so excited about this newfound thing I liked. And I remember posting my work on my Instagram. I even tried to sell it a few times. But when I suddenly had pressure to make money and please other people, even just through Instagram likes, I lost some of that sparkle. For me, it would be so cool to make stuff with my hands for a living and not stare at a screen all day. But I just immediately felt this ick. I had to shut that inkling down. If I turned this hobby into something I relied on to make a living, would I still fill up my creative cup? If it turned into something I had to do instead of something I wanted to do. Would I begin to resent it? After the break, we hear from my friend Kruthi again, and I come to some conclusions of my own. Hi again. It's me, Sarabeth. Remember Kruthi from earlier? The aerospace engineer turned animator? I asked her the same thing I asked Alec earlier. Does she regret switching careers? Is she happy where she is now?

[Rachel Oftadal]

Well, changing career has definitely not been easy. It was definitely not straightforward. And I think when I tell people that I used to be an aerospace engineer, now I am a motion designer, people look at me like I'm crazy. They're like, how did this happen? But I guess that's life, right? Like, it's definitely not linear. But I'm so happy about where I ended up. Even though the industry sucks right now, I know that it's definitely going to pick up later on. And I guess this is where my engineering brain comes into play. I like to think that everything happens in waves. If there is, there is definitely going to be a high again and it is going to pick up. Just have to push through and just keep going at it.

[Sarah Beth Morgan]

I guess Kruthi's engineering brain kind of blew my mind just then and there. She's right. Everything does come in waves. Everything tends to have an equal and opposite reaction. Personally, my brain doesn't work this way. Big picture, you know? So it immediately felt like a relief to hear it from her point of view. Things will pick up. Even if I don't know where I'm going right now, things will be okay. Careers are fluid, creativity is fluid. Just like Alec could pick up his problem solving skills and apply them to the wine business. And just like Kruthi could take her engineering brain and apply it to animation, I now have a little more confidence that I can do the same wherever I end up. The motion design industry may be a mess right now, but I am a capable and creative person. I might be floating down this weird metaphorical hallway by the tips of my toes, scared to open each door, but if someone else did it and landed happily, why can't I? All right, do you guys feel like you're listening to a therapy session? Because I kind of do. And since we're getting personal, indulge me for a sec. Okay, let's strip back all the layers of this career crisis and get to the heart of it. When we really boil it down to the basics, the question becomes, what's next? Push aside all the anxiety, the money involved, the politics, the adult responsibilities, it becomes simple. I have to go with my gut. I have to admit that having a baby and watching him evolve before my eyes. His super big round head evening out over months. His hair growing a millimeter every day. A new word or sentence structure picked up each week. This all puts things into a different perspective. You know when you're so close to something that you can't see it changing? For example, if you don't have a baby, take a house plant. You set your cute little pothos plant on a windowsill one day and two weeks later you realize it has two shiny new leaves unfurling. When did that happen, you wonder? Imagine you had a camera taking time lapse photos of it too. And you play it back and realize so much has changed so quickly. The stem actually grew a couple centimeters. A new root node popped up. There are all these little things you didn't notice until you look back at the growth. So now when I'm looking back at old photos of my son, I realize that actually his head was gigantic when he was a baby and I just didn't have anything to compare it to until now. Now that he's more evenly proportioned as a toddler. Hey. But it was cute. And wow, I forgot that's what his voice sounded like before he could say words. Maybe a silly example, but I think this also applies to my career. Maybe your career too. You listening over there? If I zoom out and see my career timeline as a whole, I realize that I actually have taken quite a few career turns before. And perhaps all this is nothing new. I moved to two new states and took two different staff jobs. I took a complete leap of faith and transition, transitioned into freelance on my own. I started my own business. I started directing on my own terms. I didn't get promoted to director at a studio. I just put it on my LinkedIn profile and it manifested itself over time. Last year I decided I liked murals and I painted one in my own house. And that somehow also turned into client work. When I lay it all out in simple terms, maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. Historically, I'm good at change, but my goodness, does it feel rough when I'm deep in the middle of it. Even if I didn't realize it at the time. My career has gone in waves. New doorways will keep appearing and decisions will be made. We just have to be patient. I guess all I can do for now is just keep exploring the hallway. Thanks for joining me for the very first episode of Ghost Frame. If you want to learn more about today's show and check out some additional bonus content. Subscribe to our substack username ostframe Podcast. You can find the link in the show notes. Drop us a line by emailing ghostframepodcastmail.com youm can find me Sarah Beth on Instagram at username Wonderful. Today's episode was hosted and produced by me, Sara Beth Morgan. Special thanks to our guests Kruthi Hindupur, Vasanth Hemadava, Alec Cummings, Rachel Oftadal, and Will Johnson. Also featured was TikTok user Christine Choi Editing, mixing and sound design by the Incredible Hope Brush music by Cathead Noyes, who also composed our amazing original brand music. That's it for today's show. Make sure to join us for the next episode where we'll explore a different kind of ghost story. I'll see you soon.

[Host]

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[Julia Pot]

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[Host]

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[Julia Pot]

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[Host]

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[Julia Pot]

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[Julia Pot]

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[Host]

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[Julia Pot]

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[Host]

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[Julia Pot]

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