Allison (1:51)

And you wouldn't want to see that. It's like when I was watching King of Queens and Carrie was taking pole dancing and Doug thought he was in for this treat and it was just ridiculous. I'm like, that's what I would look like, a disaster.

Mike (2:03)

You'd be like jumping up like, oh, whoops.

Allison (2:05)

Oh, my lower back. I think I tweaked something.

Mike (2:07)

Just trying to look, like sexy.

Allison (2:09)

Not at all. Not hitting the mark.

Mike (2:11)

You know, you're a cute young lady and that's all you are, and that's what you need to be. And you are so you're good. Good enough.

Allison (2:15)

What were you going to say about being 47?

Mike (2:18)

People say 47 years young or whatever. It's like, I don't know, it's old. I'm not old. I'm just like, why do we have to say young? Like why do we have to like try to say like sound younger?

Allison (2:27)

Do we fight our age when it's just natural that if we're still living and God willing we are that why do we fight it? Why are we ashamed of our age especially? I think women really face that. They feel that as we're getting older we lose our value because maybe heads aren't turning or we're not getting commented on a physical attribute in our, you know, of, of ourselves.

Mike (2:49)

All the boobs are down to the

Allison (2:50)

knees, you know, not mine.

Mike (2:51)

No, they can't.

Allison (2:53)

They're too, they're too little to be down to the knees.

Mike (2:55)

Yeah.

Allison (2:55)

No, it's just down to the chest.

Mike (2:57)

Yeah. Hey, let them hang. Let them hang, lad. Whatever you want to do.

Allison (3:00)

I don't know why as a society we have shame with aging.

Mike (3:03)

Yeah. I especially women, man. It's so hard because your whole lives you're just taught that you're not good enough in advertising and maybe day to day too. It's like, well, you don't want to age. I frickin can't stand. There was a billboard that I saw like a year ago and they were like, aging. People say aging is natural. BS and it said the whole word and I was just like, it's, it is natural, man. That's like part of life. Like it's like a little wrinkles and a little like, you know, sagging and so like it's all like bad words obviously, but it's like, I don't know, just what's really sexy is embracing it

Allison (3:37)

all, I think, I mean, I think you really should. And don't get me wrong, I'm gonna do everything I can to fight back. I do my a lot of products,

Mike (3:45)

but you do a lot less than some people and whatever. Everybody's got their own thing.

Allison (3:48)

I've personally never had any kind of Botox or fillers or anything like that. But I do use a red light therapy mask. I put on those four hour sheet masks. I'm doing all that stuff as much as I can to keep the wrinkles at bay.

Mike (4:01)

Yeah.

Allison (4:01)

And I don't think there's anything wrong with anything you choose to do, but I don't think we should have shame behind it. You know what I mean? And it's just so funny how self confidence, like you can't see it in somebody else. Like you're like, what do you mean you're so beautiful? Like, I was watching the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, and it's somebody that I look at, and I'm like, well, obviously she looks perfect. And she's sitting with a therapist, and she's like, I just have no self confidence. Know people online tell me, oh, you look like a man, and this and that. And I'm like, what? My God, you're. You're beautiful. You're stunning.

Mike (4:32)

That's the danger. What's her name?

Allison (4:33)

Jesse.

Mike (4:34)

I'd like to take a look at her, see what I think here. Just.

Allison (4:36)

Yeah, I mean, she's, you know, Jesse.

Mike (4:38)

What? Like Jesse.

Allison (4:39)

If you just type in Jesse. Secret Life. Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.

Mike (4:43)

Lives of Mormon Wives.

Allison (4:44)

You know, it's just we're all struggling with something, but I think it's something to work on, to just try to overtake those negative thoughts.

Mike (4:52)

What is she like?

Allison (4:53)

She's like 30, 32 years old.

Mike (4:54)

I think she's. That's crazy. It's like the. The. The expectations of women that you give yourselves is just so unfair. Like, you'll never live up to what you want to be. Like, that's why there's so much work that's going on. And it's like, again, if you want to get it, go ahead. You know, it's up to you. It's your life.

Allison (5:11)

But you know what I always laugh at, though, is that we never appreciate what we have when we have it. Like, you know, I was 21 years old and I was like, oh, I feel this way or that way. I could lose a couple pounds. And now I look back at pictures of when I was 21, and it's like, what the hell was I talking about?

Mike (5:24)

You were adorable. Adorable little snack.

Allison (5:27)

It's insane. So I just wish we could take a little bit of time to just appreciate what our bodies do for us every single day, rather than crucifying what they don't do or what we wish they could do.

Mike (5:38)

The whole problem is that we got to sell more stuff, right? So the whole way that you can sell things, being a salesperson is you have to, like, create a pain if there's no pain there. And the pain they're trying to create is, oh, you don't want the wrinkles. You don't want this. You don't want to. You know, you wanted everything to look good. You want your hair a certain color. You want. You can't have gray. Like, why is gray hair not acceptable? I know we say that it might make people look A little older. But why is that? Like, it's a mental thing, right? They look the same. It's. It's ridiculous. And I. One thing that really pisses me off. Now they're coming after men. Now they're trying to tell us like, hey, your wife does it. Why don't you, why don't you have a skincare routine? It's because I don't want a skincare routine. I just want to hang out.

Allison (6:15)

Wrong with doing a little self care. But it can, you know, border on obsessive. Yeah, I think.

Mike (6:20)

Yeah. Like our son, 17, you know, I can see it in the younger kids. It's say they have. I mean, he takes good care of himself a lot. Oh my God. The kid frickin gets $50 haircuts. And then he spent. I see it on our Apple pay 100 bucks at the salon. I'm like, you just spent. He gets products there every time his stylist. I'm watching you, lady. You better. He's got this kid hook, line and sinker. Anything she says, he's getting. So watch out. I'm watching you especially.

Allison (6:45)

Teenagers are so impressive, impressionable. It's like, oh, this is going to work. I'm going to get it.

Mike (6:49)

Yeah. Oh, and the TikTok is the worst for. So some of you guys might be following me on TikTok. I'm selling some stuff on there that I like. Not advertising on the show at all, but it's just like, just trying to make some side money for the family.

Allison (6:59)

But it's just something fun for you to do too.

Mike (7:01)

Yeah, but all the TikTok stuff's like, that's how you get people. You have this, this hook in the beginning and it's like, well, you don't want to do this, but try this, you know, so it's. It's all day long and that's all they scroll through. It's like tiktoks. And then it's like constant. You can get better. And the supplements and you got to do this.

Allison (7:18)

You'll sleep better if you take this. If you drink that before bed and,

Mike (7:21)

and like you read all this and see. All right, before bed. Then you lay there like, oh man, I gotta really improve my life.

Allison (7:26)

And if something seems too good to be true, obviously it likely is. It's. Nothing's really gonna ever just change your life. Otherwise everybody would be doing it. Surgery, change your life.

Mike (7:37)

Faceless. I mean, I look at myself.

Allison (7:40)

Faceless.

Mike (7:41)

Faceless.

Allison (7:41)

You don't take your face off in a facelift.

Mike (7:43)

I would do it. I would do it if I was free.

Allison (7:45)

So we should probably jump into this episode because it is a doozy. It's a bit of a long one. Are you ready?

Mike (7:50)

Yes, I am. Okay.

Allison (7:50)

Because if you're ready, I'm ready. Let's do this. It's a hot cup of coffee. This is a listener suggestion from Kelly, so thank you so much, Kelly. This is the murder of Garrett Phillips. So on the very rainy afternoon of Monday, October 24, 2011, Tandy Cyrus rushed to Canton Potsdam Hospital in the small village of Potsdam, New York after she was told that her 12 year old son, Garrett Phillips had fallen. And this had started as a completely normal day. She was sitting at her other son's basketball practice when she was told that she needed to get to the hospital. Everything happened very quickly. So as she reached his hospital room, all she knows is that something's happened to Garrett. He may have fallen. And she comes into the hospital and she finds her 12 year old in cardiac arrest. And meanwhile, an entire medical staff is gathered around him, frantically tending to him.

Mike (8:42)

That would be an absolute worst case scenario. Nightmare.

Allison (8:45)

A nightmare. So meanwhile, the doctor asked her if she thought he would have ever tried to harm himself since he noticed markings on his neck. So Tandy is standing there. She is in complete shock. She's unable to wrap her mind around what was going on. So as the team is performing CPR on her beloved son, she noticed bruising to his face and marks to his neck. But she had absolutely no idea what was going on. And what happened to him? How did he hurt himself? So the moment felt utterly unreal and she felt as if she was standing in someone else's body while watching someone else's life. It couldn't have been hers. She's standing there thinking, this cannot be my life. So the next thing she realizes, a doctor is standing in front of her, looking at her over his glasses. And she recalls hearing him say, there's nothing more we can do. And she couldn't understand how her 12 year old athletic son could have died from cardiac arrest related to a fall when she just called him about an hour before and said, get home from school. What are you still doing there? How did this happen? So unable to tear herself away from her child, Tandy stayed in the hospital room with Garrett. She just couldn't leave him. She stayed the night until the staff came in and told her she needed to come out. And before the grieving mother left her son's room, she told him that she loved him. She kissed Him. So since mid August of that year, Tandy had been living at the North Country Manor apartments in Potsdam at 100 Market street and she, Garrett and her younger son Aaron were in a three bedroom unit on the second floor of this 100 year old building. And just it just so you can picture it, it has one door at the front that you both enter and exit into that building. There's no other ways that a person can get out except for that door. So Potsdam is in a college town in upstate New York. It's only about a half hour's drive from the Canadian border. So it's, it's up there. So because it's home to both State University of New York at Potom as well as Clarkson University, during the school year, the population of the town is increased by about 8,000 students. So on that Monday in October, Tandy's neighbors, Marissa Vogel and her fiance Shawn hall, they had gotten home at about 4:20pm and they began cooking dinner. And just at about 5pm they grabbed their dishes, they sat down and they were watching Dexter. And this actually sounded like a perfect evening because I like to eat dinner at 5pm and I like to watch something like Dexter.

Mike (11:18)

You start to get a little itchy if you're not eating at 5.

Allison (11:20)

I'm like, what are we doing with our lives? Why is it 6:00pm and I haven't, haven't eaten yet.

Mike (11:23)

Yeah.

Allison (11:24)

So at this point in time, another neighbor, Shannon Harris, and her boyfriend Andrew Carranza were just outside the building and they were changing a tire on one of their cars. And they're in the parking lot of the apart, you know, of the apartment building. So while they were out there, they started hearing noises, but you know, they were busy and they were distracted to the tire and they couldn't understand what they were hearing or where the sounds were coming from. They did glance around to see, what the heck is that? So meanwhile, Marissa and Shawn again are sitting there eating their dinner and they hear the sound of running footsteps followed by a crash and then perfect silence coming from the unit next door where they knew that a single mother lived with her two sons. So it sounded as if something heavy had fallen to the floor. And seconds later they heard a child's moan. And the child was either saying ow or no. And although the sound obviously was muffled because it's coming through a wall, they could tell though that the child sounded scared. They also heard them say help more than once, maybe three times. So after that they could hear mumbling, but it was muffled and they couldn't understand what the words were. So concerned, they immediately got out of their apartment, walked next door and Marissa knocked on the door. She, she was able to hear faint movement on the other side, but rather than the door opening, she could hear the click of a lock engaging. So feeling really unsettled, she just felt like something wasn't right. She called 911 at 508pm and she told the dispatcher that she was probably being paranoid, but she just felt that someone should come out just in case someone was in trouble or they needed help. So when Marissa looked out the window, she didn't notice anything out of the ordinary, such as a car that just seemed to be out of place. Everything seemed very normal. However, she couldn't help but realize just how eerily quiet things had gotten after the noises on the other side of the door stopped. She never heard anyone walking down the stairs to exit the building, which she said she would have. You know, you think about it, it's a 100 year old building, I'm sure there's creeks and cracks going down that staircase. She said had someone walked down it, she would have heard them.

Mike (13:35)

Right.

Allison (13:36)

So the dispatcher told her that an officer would come out soon to check on the situation. And only minutes later it was 5:10pm when Officer Wentworth was up at the door of this unit in question. So although there had been initially no sound of movement on the other side of the door, when he first approached it, when he started knocking at just about 5:14pm he could hear someone walking around. So at 5:21pm a dispatcher from Potsdam Police Department contacted Rick Dumas. This is a landlord of the apartment building and he said he would come over with a key. So while Officer Wentworth is just waiting for his arrival, he started knocking on the door again. This time he was using his patrol stick and he started yelling out, if you are in there, come and open this door. So once again he could hear movement on the other side of the door, but yet again his knocks were going unanswered. So it was very clear someone was moving around in that unit, but they weren't coming to the door.

Mike (14:35)

I always wonder sometimes you can maybe think you're hearing something, you know, but he's obviously a police officer and he's been in this situation several times.

Allison (14:43)

Right. And Marissa heard the lock engage. So someone was up and moving in that apartment.

Mike (14:48)

Right.

Allison (14:49)

So when rick arrived at 5:33pm with a key to the unit, they opened the door and they found a young boy alone inside and he was lying on the floor in the entryway to a bedroom. He was wearing a blue long sleeve shirt and gray shorts that had white and blue stripes on them. So there was swelling around his brow line, small marks on the front of his neck and scrapes and blood to his knees that appeared to be from a rug burn. So the boy's face was blue and he was unresponsive. So Officer Wentworth immediately began CPR until an ambulance arrived to transport 12 year old Garrett Phillips just a half mile down the road to Canton Potsdam Hospital. And in the meantime, authorities are trying to get Tandy's contact information in order to notify her that her 12 year old son is being rushed to the hospital. So at about 5.30pm, while first responders had been working on Garrett, Tandy had no idea obviously that this was happening. She had already picked up her younger son at daycare and she was at the school gym watching his basketball practice. And since Garrett had practiced 30 minutes later, at 6pm, she was just going to go over to his practice and watch the second half of that. So while she's sitting there, her landlord Rick came and found her. He said, I was just at your apartment. Something's wrong with Garrett, you need to get to the hospital. Someone must have said the word Garrett may have fallen because that's what she thought when she came to the hospital.

Mike (16:19)

That's where that all came from. Got it.

Allison (16:21)

So when Garrett's paternal grandma and her uncle, this is Patricia and Brian Phillips, met Tandy at the hospital, they were shocked just like she was. He was on a ventilator and then he started going into cardiac arrest. And tragically, 12 year old Garrett Phillips was pronounced dead at 7:18pm that evening. And at this point in time, nobody freaking knows what happened to sweet Garrett.

Mike (16:45)

Yeah, it could be anything.

Allison (16:46)

So according to his obituary, Garrett was born on August 13, 1999 in Potsdam to parents Robbie Phillips and Tandy Cyrus. And when he was about 16 months old, the parents split up. And sadly, when Garrett was only two years old, Robbie suddenly died from a brain aneurysm. So in 2001, Tandy began dating Casey Collins. And then Aaron was born about a year later. So even after Tandy and Casey broke up, he continued to stand in as a father figure to Garrett. Because Garrett had been so young when his own father passed away, he actually called Casey dad. So in 2011, Garrett was in sixth grade, he was going to AA Kingston Middle School. He was a typical boy. He loved being outside, going camping, riding on four wheelers, hunting, fishing. He was super Athletic. He played football, soccer, hockey, basketball and lacrosse. Talk about a busy, saturated schedule.

Mike (17:43)

Very active.

Allison (17:44)

Very, very active. So Lieutenant Mark Murray, who later became Potsdam's chief of police, he was contacted at about 5:53pm that Monday. This is at the time that Garrett is being rushed to the hospital under highly mysterious conditions. So he found the inside of Tandy's apartment very clean and tidy with Garrett and Aaron's school schedules posted on the fridge. Because of course, their schedules are bonkers. They wanted to keep it in line and it was nice and tidy and posted. It was on the fridge. Family photos are adorning the walls. A very typical looking apartment. Nothing within the living room seemed out of place. And he was able to see that Garrett had placed his gym shoes by the closet. His ripstick, which is something similar to a skateboard, was propped neatly against the wall that was next to his backpack. And the only real obvious signs that maybe there was a struggle in the main area of the house, I should say of the apartment, I should say is Garrett's sweatshirt. It was discarded and lying in the hallway. So while they photographed the third bedroom of the apartment, the officers immediately noticed that the blinds of the window were very noticeably bent outwards. I watched a documentary on this and very, very obvious that they were pushed out. The window was open. And again, this was a very, very rainy day. So it wouldn't be a typical day that you would have the window open. The screen was also pushed out.

Mike (19:10)

Oh, there we go. Somebody left.

Allison (19:11)

So as they looked more closely, they realized that someone had likely found, fled from the building. But of course, at this point in time there's so many unanswered questions, they don't know squats. So they are thinking maybe somebody left through the second story window. They're looking down, it's about a 20 foot drop, but if you're desperate. So when officers went outside to assess the area, they saw that a tile on the ledge below the window had a large crack, potentially from the impact of someone dropping. So because Shannon Harris and Andrew Carranza had been outside changing their car's tire, she Between 4:50 and 5:20pm Based on all of the timing of events, they would have literally just missed the person jumping from Garrett's second floor window. And while they were out there, of course, they were hearing sounds and looking back, they realized that it was probably the sounds of the screen ripping as it was being pushed out. And the person was probably doing it very slowly and trying to be quiet and basically waiting for them to finish changing the tire. Until they can jump down and not be seen by anyone. Because of course they've got the Officer Wentworth on this side of the door. And then these two people down there changing the tire, they're like waiting.

Mike (20:25)

Yeah, I'm stuck.

Allison (20:26)

And then they took their opportunity as soon as they went away and jumped down. Because of course, by the time Officer Wentworth got into that apartment, that person was gone. But again, at this point in time, it wasn't entirely clear what had happened to Garrett's. Investigators tried to come up with any possible scenario. They wondered even had Garrett somehow fallen from the window? Did he then make his way back up to the apartment and then succumb to his injuries?

Mike (20:51)

Like literally everything's on the table.

Allison (20:53)

Right. However, the autopsy would soon rule any of that out because it proved that he died as a result of strangulation and suffocation.

Mike (21:03)

Okay, well, clearly we have somebody to look for because he didn't do it to himself.

Allison (21:07)

Right, but there's still, still were some various rumors and theories swirling about that Maybe two boys from Garrett's school could have been responsible. Maybe they were playing some kind of weird, stupid game that ended in a tragic accident. Some even considered autoerotic asphyxiation because a bra was laying on the floor somewhere near Garrett.

Mike (21:27)

I mean, that's, it's, I would definitely consider it.

Allison (21:30)

So according to witnesses, Garrett had stayed late at school that day. He was playing basketball in the gym. He was a super, super active, social kid, so. So he was trying to squeeze as much playtime as he possibly could out of his day. And I mean, as a 12 year old who has boundless energy, that's perfect. So he's in the gym and his classmates are playing about 40 minutes before he was found unresponsive. That's why I'm saying everything happened very quickly. And he was supposed to be back at the school at six for his practice. And of course, Officer Wentworth is standing out there at around 5:30 ish, a little bit before that. So while Tandy had been at work and she hadn't heard from her son by 4:30, she called his cell phone. She's like, you gotta get home. So about 20 minutes later, at about 4:50, a school custodian saw Garrett near the ramp that connected the middle school to the elementary school. He was alone. He had his skateboard ripstick with him. So Garrett's cousin, Kayla Phillips, she told police that she also saw him outside of Potsdam High School. It sounds like all the schools, because it's a small town, are all clustered among one another. He was heading towards the school parking lots and after he skateboarded over to her, he asked for some of the popcorn that she was eating and she was asking him where are you headed? And he told her home. So surveillance from the school proved that he left the high school's parking lot at about 4:52pm this is less than 15 minutes before Marissa began hearing concerning sounds on the other side of that wall.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (23:05)

This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. November is Men's Health Awareness month. So Talkspace wants guys to know that being prepared for life's biggest challenges and opportunities means prioritizing mental health too. Talkspace can help you go beyond fine tuned workouts, supplements and productivity hacks. Talkspace can help you fine tune your inner life so you can succeed in being the best version of yourself in any situation. And with Talkspace, you, you can get therapy from anywhere and on your time. You can even text your therapist between sessions. If you're depressed, stressed, struggling with a relationship, or just need a little extra one on one support, Talkspace is here for you. Plus, Talkspace takes most insurance and most insured members have a $0 copay. Men's Health Awareness month is the perfect time to reach out to TalkSpace. Now get $80 off your first month with promo code space80 when you go to talkspace.com match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com and save $80 with code space80@talkspace.com that's talkspace.com promo code space80.

Allison (24:07)

So although no one could imagine, okay, who would have wanted to hurt this funny athletic 12 year old boy. Immediately there were concerns voiced about Tandy's ex boyfriend. This is Oral Nick Hillary and he goes by Nick. So he immediately became the main suspect and the main focus of this entire case.

Mike (24:32)

How the hell I was thinking a kid, man, I don't, that's, you know, kids do stupid stuff. Maybe it was a troubled kid. Like I'm thinking a kid that definitely somebody else he knows. Like some teen that just likes to have fun doing bad things. Yeah, but a former boyfriend? That's insane.

Allison (24:47)

Right? So that's immediately who they honed in on. So after Tandy's breakup from Casey Collins back in 20076 she started dating a local sheriff's deputy. This is Jon Jones between 20072010 and basically as a relationship is coming to an end, she met Nick Hillary at Half Tons Bar and Grill where she was working as a bartender and apparently Tandy used to play soccer. So they connected because Nick you'll see is very involved in soccer. So Nick was born in Jamaica, and he moved to the United States as a teenager. And after serving in the army, he was honorably discharged in the 1990s. He was a former soccer star from nearby St. Lawrence University. He played all four years of college, and as the team's captain, he led the team to the program's first national championship in 1999. And after graduating in 2000, he worked as a math teacher as well as as a soccer coach. And in 2009, he became Clarkson University's men's head soccer coach, which is what position he was in in 2011 when Garrett died. And at the time in 2009, he was living with his girlfriend Stasia, and their three children. So when he and Tandy started dating in late 2010, Nick and his teenage daughter Shanna K. Moved into Tandy's two bedroom apartment where she was living with Garrett and Aaron. And obviously that's cramped quarters. So In January of 2011, the new family of five, Nick, Tandy, Shanna, Kyle, Garrett and Aaron, moved into a four bedroom house in Potsdam. So unfortunately, throughout the relationship, Garrett and Nick were often bumping heads. Although Garrett was very well liked by both his classmates and his teachers, he did struggle in school. And knowing that Nick used to teach fifth grade math, Tandy was saying, you know, what do you think, Nick? What, what can I do to help get Garrett back on track? So it wasn't long before tension started to grow as Garrett felt that Nick was just far too strict. While Tandy felt it was fine that the kids watch TV after their homework was done, Nick didn't agree. He felt that during the school week the focus should be on activities because obviously they're in sports, homework and, and then just get some rest and go to bed. He wanted their full attention to be on their academics. So Garrett wasn't fond of this, this discipline that Nick was bringing to their household. And he often reached out to Aaron's father, Casey Collins, saying, could I please come live with you? I just hate Nick. So their varying parenting styles were eventually something that was just driving a wedge between them. Tandy was just far more lenient than neck. And it's always hard when it's a blended family because he's not Garrett and Aaron's father, so they might not take to the discipline very well.

Mike (27:36)

Yeah, and they're not married and it's just a weird situation. It's got to be hard. You want them to have a say because they're living with them and they're kind of the father figure. Regardless, I'd say that's a tough situation.

Allison (27:47)

So she later made a statement to police indicating that he expected her to change her parenting style to be more like him. She described him as an extremely structured, scheduled, and meticulous person. He was someone that outlined his schedule in a planner, which was just clear opposite of herself. She more flew by the cuff of things. So these differences caused increasing stress in the relationship, which carried over into their blended home, because the kids could sense this tension.

Mike (28:16)

And I imagine it frustrated him because he can't see a world where just flying by the seat of his pants. Kind of like you and me.

Allison (28:22)

I'm very structured. I like to have a schedule. I like to have a plan.

Mike (28:26)

Yeah. And, like, whereas me, I'm like, we'll figure it out as we go. And I always do. I always have, always will. But it's just like, this guy, it's gonna drive him crazy. Like, how could you not have absolutely every minute planned and then the whole week? Like, how could you let them watch TV when they're academics and blah, blah? Like, I meant he sounds insane.

Allison (28:39)

Well, it sounds like, you know, just somebody that has a different way of parenting. And unfortunately, when you're not on the same page, it can lead to frustrations. So a few months before Garrett's death, their differences reached a boiling point. And after nine months together, they broke up in July of 2011, when Nick had been out of town recruiting soccer players. But it. It didn't end just. Just there. So during this time, she had a sit down with her boys because, of course, Nick is out of town. So she's taking the opportunity to sit Garrett and Aaron down and say, you know, what are your feelings about our living arrangement? And that's a good mom. Because she wants to take their feelings into consideration.

Mike (29:17)

Yeah, but still, I mean, you're the mom. You. You make the decisions. You can't stick with somebody because your kids love somebody. That's a terrible.

Allison (29:24)

Of course. But you also don't want your kids to be living in hell.

Mike (29:27)

Well, really what you want to do is make it seem like it's part of their choice, even though it's not at all. That's the. That's the play.

Allison (29:33)

Yeah. And obviously she was reach, you know, the end of her rope as well.

Mike (29:36)

Yeah, that's smart.

Allison (29:37)

So both Aaron and Garrett expressed their unhappiness. So in mid August of 2011, she and the boys moved out to this apartment at 100 Market street where Garrett was found unresponsive so although they were living apart, she did continue to try to work on the relationship. Tandy had given Nick a key to her new apartment. It sounded like he was coming over more for some late night visits, maybe after the boys went to bed. So however, she indicated that during the first week of September, when he came to visit her there, she told him, I just need some space. And he said, fine, I will leave you alone. And according to Tandy, that same night, she heard the sound of a door opening and she woke up and saw that Nick was there. And she's like, what in the hell are you doing? And he said, what? I'm just going to sleep. And after that she said, give me back my key. Okay, but I will tell you that during a later deposition, Nick said he did have a key. He returned it to Tandy in September. He said, I never let myself into that apartment uninvited. So it's her story against his.

Mike (30:40)

Well, real quick. So he was. Nick was living with this Stacia at the, at the time or.

Allison (30:44)

No, no, he and Stacia broke up before he started dating.

Mike (30:47)

Got it, Got it.

Allison (30:48)

Okay. Yeah. So while Tandy admitted that she had never seen Nick hit a child, she never saw him lose his temper or threaten a child. And I will tell you, the documentary that I watched really showed him with his children. You could tell by these young children's response to their dad that he was very loving. I mean, these kids would pour into his arms and you can't fake that. You can't fake that with a three year old, nor. Well, yeah, kids can't fake it. So that's the point. So you could tell that his kids in the documentary, the documentary that I watch, that they truly loved their father. And like I said, she said, I've never seen him lose his temper or threaten a child during their year long relationship. Yet she still felt that he was responsible for her son's death, believing that he'd always blamed Garrett for the reason why they broke up. So when officers went to Nick's house on the very night of Garrett's death, they acknowledged that when he was told that Garrett was deceased, he looked like legitimately stunned and he looked legitimately upset at the news of the young boy's death. And yes, they may have butt butted heads. That didn't mean he wanted a 12 year old to be strangled to death.

Mike (31:59)

That's a big step.

Allison (32:00)

Right. So regardless, though, he was immediately considered a suspect in this case.

Mike (32:05)

Sure.

Allison (32:06)

So one day after her son's death Tandy and her ex boyfriend, who worked as a county sheriff's deputy. This is Jon Jones. They arrived at the police station together, and this is where she was first interviewed one day after her son's death. Because they're trying to put the pieces together of what could have happened. So that same night, Lieutenant Mark Murray went to Nick's soccer game. He just wanted to observe him. And he is sitting there telling the camera in this documentary that Nick seemed to be favoring his right leg. And he said that he seemed to be walking with a significant limp. He felt that he could have injured himself after he jumped out of the second floor window of the apartment.

Mike (32:46)

How does one seem to be walking with a significant limp? Like it. It's either he is.

Allison (32:51)

Either you are. You are.

Mike (32:52)

I like words, you know, I. When words are used, it's kind of important. So it's seem to be. Yeah, it's interesting.

Allison (32:58)

Well, he claimed he seemed to be favoring his right leg and claimed he was walking with a significant limp. But years later, a video from this very night, because this game had been recorded, depicted Nick walking with no obvious limp. I saw the video. He was walking with purpose, and there was zero limp whatsoever. So when confronted with this, Lt. Murray said, well, there were points in time. He walked perfectly fine, and other times that he appeared that he wanted to conceal a limp. So it's like. But that's not what you said.

Mike (33:29)

No.

Allison (33:30)

So on Wednesday, October 26, 2011, this is two days after Garrett's death. Nick was asked to the come or. Excuse me, asked to come down to the police station. He was told that they just wanted to go over the student roster of Garrett's class. And when he arrived, though, it was very clear that this was absolutely not the case. So based on the questioning, it was immediately clear that he was being viewed as a suspect. And, you know, he's being assured, though. But everyone in town is considered a suspect right now, and we just want to talk to you to eliminate you as being involved. So though he was told that he could leave at any point since he wasn't under arrest, they probably said that

Mike (34:12)

very quietly and just very quickly, yes, you can leave whenever. So anyways, blah, blah, blah.

Allison (34:16)

So he's like, okay, I'm gonna leave then. And he stood up. And Officer David Snell and Lieutenant Mark Murray immediately stood and blocked his exits. And they told him, we need to confiscate your phone. And in the meantime, his Honda CRV was impounded.

Mike (34:32)

They still don't have. They're not allowed to do any of that.

Allison (34:34)

They most certainly blocked his exit so that he'd put. Probably have to touch them to leave that room.

Mike (34:39)

Right. Assault. They want him to commit us.

Allison (34:41)

And, and that's obviously that was done purposefully.

Mike (34:43)

So these days, now they can't do it because everybody's got their phone. They start recording, say, okay, officers, are you blocking my exit? You said I'm free to leave, but I can't. You have to document everything.

Allison (34:51)

And this was all being recorded. I watched it in the documentary. So Nick called his friend immediately. He was a lawyer, Manny Tafari, and he made the seven hour drive up from Manhattan and he also contacted a local lawyer, Jane Garland. But in the meantime, the Potsdam Police Department also obtained a warrant to search Nick himself. And this included the clothing he was wearing, the belongings he was carrying, as well as an exam of his body in order to assess if he had any injuries. So he was stripped fully nude. Schlong out, ass out. And in the process, officers took photos and they looked his body over.

Mike (35:28)

Oh, this is the documentary you were watching?

Allison (35:29)

I had it on in the family room.

Mike (35:31)

Oh my God. I luckily I watched, watched a little piece of this. It was absolutely embarrassing. It didn't click till just now. Even though you told me.

Allison (35:38)

I knew it was gonna click.

Mike (35:39)

Yeah, this. Oh my God. They tried to do anything they could. And I remember in the documentary they're like, like somebody said, like, I think they were trying to get me to do something.

Allison (35:48)

Yes, 100. So they noticed a scrape on his right ankle. And according to Lt. Murray, Nick was very vague in regards to how he got the scrape. Of course, that was not depicted in the documentary. So at what point Nick was being vague? I don't know, maybe it wasn't recorded. He eventually said it was from moving a piece of furniture around his apartment. According to Lt. Murray, though, Nick couldn't say what piece of furniture it was. So after eight hours at the station

Mike (36:15)

and real quick, he's still at the point where he's not detained.

Allison (36:18)

No, he is absolutely not detained.

Mike (36:20)

What's absolutely ridiculous, they're like, you have to remove everything. And he's just trying to like, follow the rules, which aren't your real actual rules. But Nick is black, so I don't know if we said this.

Allison (36:29)

We will most certainly highlight that.

Mike (36:31)

Okay, my bad. I sorry I'm ruining your story, but it's just like right away you're like, this guy is being like, held against his will. And like, you know, you hate to play the race card, but this was a race card scenario. It's like this poor guy is being put through all this stuff and they have nothing on him. He's not being detained. Sorry.

Allison (36:48)

So again, at this point in time, there is zero evidence that Nick is involved in this crime. And he is a very well spoken, put together guy. Thank goodness he had his wits about him and he was kind of able to handle the situation to some degree because he did.

Mike (37:05)

Fantastic.

Allison (37:05)

For the most part, it was out of his hands. So after eight hours at the station, Nick was allowed to leave as no arrest was made and he left the station wearing a hazmat suit. I mean, seriously, it's laughable.

Mike (37:19)

I'm laughing and it's horrible.

Allison (37:20)

It's horrible, horrible. Human rights violation, outrageous.

Mike (37:23)

But it's, it's still. They did it on purpose.

Allison (37:24)

So he's leaving the station in a hazmat suit rather than his own clothing. And he indicated that since that moment when he first stepped out of that station, it was a before and an after. His life has never been the same again. No one ever looked at him the same. Clarkson University wanted nothing more to do with him. They didn't want someone that was being questioned as a potential child killer to be the head coach of teenage boys.

Mike (37:53)

Yeah, it looks terrible at college.

Allison (37:54)

You know, they're adults, but they're still young.

Mike (37:56)

Well, yeah, but then their parents aren't going to send them there and recruit them. Like you murdered somebody. Potentially.

Allison (38:00)

Potentially, yeah.

Mike (38:01)

I don't think so.

Allison (38:02)

Investigators spoke with Clarkson's university's men's assistant soccer coach that Nick worked right alongside. I always picture Ted Lasso is what I picture. So it's like his right hand man, Ian Fairley, and he lived at 16 Garden street, only 0.3 miles from Tandy's apartments. Everything is happening very tightly and condensed because it's a little town. So he said that Nick had stopped by on the evening of Garrett's murder and because he was actively on a phone call, when Nick walked, Nick walked in. He could say undoubtedly that it was at 5.21pm he said nothing about Nick seemed out of the ordinary. He wasn't out of breath, he wasn't fidgety, he wasn't nervous. He was just Nick. And after Nick left to head to the university, he, Ian, resumed the phone call at 5:23pm and since they were planning on meeting with a player at 5:45pm at the University before practice began, Ian followed him. Maybe five minutes later, they met back up on campus. So the player eventually ended up not showing so they just talked to him on the phone. And then Ian and Nick hung out for a bit. They walked to the locker room and then they were out on the field at about 6:30pm for their 7pm practice. Although the practice was supposed to go until 9 because of the rain, they ended an hour early at 8:00pm so at 9:30pm that night, officers went to Nick's house. And this is when he said he first learned about Garrett's death. He said he felt utterly numb when he was told he was in shock. He was at a complete loss for words. So if Ian's statement was correct, that without a doubt Nick had arrived at his house and at 5:21, and again he said, that is for sure, I ended the call. He. It would have made it impossible that Nick could have been Garrett's killer, because just after 5pm it was maybe 505, 506, Tandy's neighbors started hearing these concerning sounds coming from next door. And Officer Wentworth responded to 100 Market street at like 5:10pm and he's standing actively at Tandy's door at 5, 5:24pm he said, I heard the faint sounds of someone walking around inside that unit. So if it's 5:24 and he hears someone walking around and Ian is saying, Nick walked in my house at 5:21pm that's impossible because one person can't be in two places at the same time.

Mike (40:33)

As long as you believe Ian's story,

Allison (40:34)

right, and he's, he, you know, he's saying it that this is true.

Mike (40:38)

Right.

Allison (40:38)

So despite the fact that Tandy's ex boyfriend, a local sheriff's deputy, this is Jon Jones again, was involved in the investigation, Lt. Murray is arguing he was also considered a suspect, just as Nick was.

Mike (40:53)

Why would he be involved in the investigation?

Allison (40:55)

He was. He was there for the first interview when Tandy showed up at the station one day after Garrett's death.

Mike (41:00)

You can't. Like that, that seems like to be a conflict of interest, obviously. Like that's the problem is it becomes emotional. And like when you're investigating, you can't bring emotions into it. If you're the investigator, you have to look at the emotions of the other side. But emotions like you got to do logically, in fact based like clearly he's has a feeling for Tandy and her kids and stuff, and he's going to try to pin somebody and if he's looking at it as a suspect and maybe he is the guy who did it. So it's like now you get access to all this information.

Allison (41:28)

So Murray went on to say that just like Nick, his fingerprints, his DNA was taken, as were photos of his body. However, Nick's lawyer, lawyer Manny Tafari, argued that in these photos, his face wasn't shown and he was allowed to remain fully clothed. Basically, what Jon Jones did, he had like a button up shirt on. He rolled the sleeves to his elbow and then he folded the pant legs to his knees and his calf down was taken and his elbow down was taken photos of.

Mike (41:59)

So he wasn't stripped down to a schlong hanging out.

Allison (42:01)

Meanwhile, Nick is fully nude when he was photographed. And based on comments made by those within the police force, taking photos of a suspect fully nude at the police department, like Nick had been virtually unheard of. No one had ever seen it happen before this.

Mike (42:17)

Unless there's specifically something to see, you know, in the nether regions. Like they know that something happens.

Allison (42:21)

Well, and that's what Manny Tafari and Nick were saying. Like this was a case where everything happened quick and a 12 year old was strangled. Why are you looking at his penis?

Mike (42:29)

Right.

Allison (42:30)

So there was a lot of discussion about the role that race played in this case. And some wondered if Nick was immediately considered a suspect because he was one of the few black men in Potsdam. So with a population of 9, 400, nearly 90 of the community was white and less than 3% were black. I mean, Nick was essentially one of the very few black people in that town. So before Garrett's death, Nick had always been an involved, respected member of the community. Everyone knew him. Oh, hey, coach, how's it going? Not only was he the head soccer coach at Clarkson University, he was a military veteran, he had zero criminal record. He was a teacher, he was a coach. Everyone adored this guy. So many people believe that because Nick was the main focus of the investigation, despite the fact that zero evidence tied him to that crime scene, that the Potsdam police department failed to look at other suspects, they just considered, he's the killer, we got to get him arrested.

Mike (43:28)

He was guilty before they even did the investigation.

Allison (43:30)

100. It was a witch hunt.

Mike (43:32)

Yeah.

Allison (43:32)

So some speculated that sheriff's Deputy Jon Jones could have been framing Nick for Garrett's murder. There was tension from the get go in their relationship because it sounded like maybe there was a little carryover, that maybe he was tapering out of the relationship with Tandy when Tandy started dating Nick. And there was a little overlap there.

Mike (43:52)

Yeah, well, there's always emotions too. It's just like even if there wasn't it's like, well, he still had feelings for her, probably, like there was a reason they were together. And then he's like, well, now this guy has her. Yeah, it's a jealousy.

Allison (44:02)

And then there were allegations that he was just this angry, racist man who could have been responsible for the murder himself and then chose to frame Nick. So Tandy had actually filed a formal, formal complaint against John in January of 2011. This is nine months before Garrett's death. And it indicated that he had been acting in a way that made her fear for the safety of herself and her sons. And I will point out that there was no formal complaint against Nick. So she went on to write that In September of 2010, he came into the home they previously shared and physically removed their or her belongings, or their belongings, she said, from the house without notifying her that this was going to happen. He also sent her threatening text messages. In October of 2010, he also came to her apartment uninvited. So when a minute sample that was scraped from one of Garrett's fingernails was tested, it was determined to have come from an unknown individual. There was no physical evidence, like I said, connecting Nick to the crime. The fingerprints and hairs that were collected did not match neck, including the prints that were recovered from the window where a person had clearly fled. And these fingerprints remain unidentified. They belong to someone. We just don't know who. Despite that, police tested every person that had access to that building, including maintenance staff and residents. And so what Lieutenant Murray is alleging, while Nick just had to have been wearing gloves at the time. So investigators began focusing on surveillance footage from Potsdam High School that was captured on the Monday that Garrett was murdered between 4:47pm and 4:53pm and it depicted a small SUV entering the lot at 4 4:46pm and this SUV fit the description of the car that Nick drove, as well as Garrett riding by on his ripstick. However, since the video lacked a license plate, it also didn't show the driver's face. They couldn't say for sure that 100% it was Nick. So Nick went on to file a civil suit because, like you were saying, you know, his rights were violated. So he filed this civil suit against the Potsdam Police Department as well as the village of Potsdam.

Mike (46:17)

And they're going to at least settle out of court if they don't completely lose.

Allison (46:20)

So he was claiming that his civil rights were violated after what he calls his false imprisonment when he was taken in for questioning two days after Garrett's murder. In the suit, which was first filed in 2012, he alleged that he suffered from both physical as well as psychological trauma due to the way that he was treated. And from that moment on, he went from being a respected part of the community to a face that was associated with Garrett's murder. He claims that his children were bullied in school. Threats were made to his physical safety on a daily basis. He said, people would just scream out on the street, murderer. So during the deposition that was held on January 20, 2014, when he was asked how he spent the day that Garrett was murdered, Nick indicated that he had driven into the parking lot of the high school in order to watch his daughter's soccer game that was scheduled. But it was raining that day, so he sat in the parking lot. He was just waiting to see if the rain was going to stop. It didn't. So it was clear that the game was going to be canceled. He then drove to his home at the Meadow East Apartments at 118 Leroy Street. And this confirmed then that without question, that SUV that was seen in the footage was Nick, as it was suspected to be Nick because it matched his suv. So he was informed that he left the parking lot only seven seconds after Garrett's, each of them turning left onto Leroy Street. However, he said, I never even saw Garrett. I mean, we're talking about a parking lot. There was a lot going on in that parking lot. He's like, I never even saw him. So, though, although his apartment was situated to the right of the parking lot, they pointed out, why did you turn left? He said he wanted to drive by Ian's house to see if his car was parked out there, because he planned to stop by before soccer practice. So from the high school footage where Garrett was seen leaving at 4.52pm, he had he gone straight home, which we assume he did, it would have taken him about six minutes based on the speed that he was traveling on the ripstick, and it would put him home at about 4:58pm so Nick pulled out of the parking lot of the high school at 4:53pm While Melissa, or excuse me, Marissa Vogel, placed the 911 call about 14 minutes later at 5:08pm in response to the noises that she began hearing minutes later, somewhere around 5:06pm so Nick told during this deposition, he said, I got back to my house a little bit before 5pm and his daughter Shanna K. Was there. She could attest to this. So he was there until about 10, 5, 10, 5, 15. And this is when he left to go to Ian's house, arriving at 5:21pm Based on Ian's account,

Sponsor/Ad Voice (49:10)

are you ready to take your savings to a new level? During Rakuten's Big Give Week, you can earn 15% cash back at hundreds of stores from May 4 to May 11. The rewards are soaring at your favorite stores, like LG Electronics, Adidas, Ulta, and hundreds more. So go ahead and refresh your closet, book that special experience and much more. It's not just a discount. It's actual cash back in your pocket. There's a reason millions of savvy shoppers use Rakuten every day. They know that when Big Give Week hits, you don't just shop, you score. So don't let these deals fly by. 15% cashback only happens from the May 4th to 11th. Join for free@rakuten.com or get the Rakuten app and browser extension. That's R A K u T E N Rakuten. The most rewarding way to shop.

Allison (50:08)

So, according to Lt. Murray, the biggest factor that connected Nick to the case was his disdain for Garrett. He described the surveillance from the high school that depicted both Garrett and Nick leaving at the same time only 10 minutes before Garrett's death as compelling evidence. So right now, that's all they have.

Mike (50:27)

In this case, we got circumstantial.

Allison (50:28)

It's very, very circumstantial that he has this disdain for Garrett. And they were both seen leaving the parking lot around the same time.

Mike (50:36)

Quick question. You said that Ian left his place or. No, Nick left his place. Like 5:10.

Allison (50:42)

5, 10, 5:15.

Mike (50:44)

How long would it have taken to get to Ian's house?

Allison (50:46)

Probably just a couple of minutes. But you know how you get in your car and you fiddle with your phone and stuff?

Mike (50:51)

Yeah. So that's just to answer the question directly. It's. It's probably took him longer to get there than it should have.

Allison (50:56)

Well, it would have been about six minutes, because if he left at 5:15. Ian said he walked into his house at 521.

Mike (51:03)

So if he did murder Garrett, then it was like, right away, it was like, stop, go boom. And then come back in if he did. But no. No. So the noises that his.

Allison (51:12)

His daughter, Shanna K. Confirmed what exactly? Nick said that he got home a few minutes before 5 and that he left about 5:15. And Marissa Vogel had already called 9 at that point.

Mike (51:23)

Well, I'm saying. We got a question. You got to wonder if Shannon's telling the truth, because obviously she doesn't want her dad to go to jail. Not saying that she is or Isn't. I'm just saying, like, what would people think? Right. And maybe he coached her to say the right times. Yes. I got home at five. My. Remember dad got home at five. You know, who knows? I don't know. But trying to see if there's any window where it could have happened.

Allison (51:42)

Based on what is being said by Shana K. And Ian, the answer would be no if what they're saying is true. So. However, according to Nick's defense team, 29 seconds after Jon Jones pulled into his driveway, he lived literally just around the corner from Tandy. He was on foot. Maybe it would have taken him a minute. Garrett rode by on his ripstick. So they were seen in the exact same footage, just like Nick and Garrett were. However, while this had just been chalked up to coincidence. What, Nick's surveillance with Garrett, that was considered damning evidence?

Mike (52:14)

Well, he was turning the same direction as him, whereas Jon Jones just happened to be in the same area. Like, there was no showing that John was following him, right?

Allison (52:22)

No, there was none of that. And there was no. Yeah, I guess you could. Could say, you know, Nick could have been potentially following Garrett because he turned left.

Mike (52:29)

That's a little more damning. I would say Jon Jones has happened to be there. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate. Yeah. Now, also, let's say Shanna, his daughter, is, you know, maybe not telling the truth. And let's say Nick, you know, that means that he wasn't necessarily there, but at 508, maybe he was at Garrett's place, and then maybe he could jump out the window and still get to ian's place by 5:20.

Allison (52:50)

No, because officer Wentworth was standing at the door at 5:24pm actively hearing someone moving behind that door.

Mike (52:57)

Got it. That's very important.

Allison (52:58)

So if Ian is telling the truth, it's physically impossible that Nick is guilty.

Mike (53:02)

Could it have been Garrett claiming, like, trying to grasp for his life? Could it have been him, like, being, like. Like, moving?

Allison (53:09)

No, they don't think so, because he was unconscious and blue on the floor.

Mike (53:14)

So he's probably there the whole time.

Allison (53:15)

And he was likely laying on the floor the entire time. And at that point in time, they were here. The neighbors were hearing the ripping of the screen. There was definitely another person in that place.

Mike (53:25)

Okay, so Nick's pretty much impossible to be there.

Allison (53:28)

If Ian is not lying. It is impossible.

Mike (53:30)

Like, I would probably believe Ian more than Shannon. Not because of anything in particular. Just Shannon's a family member, so you got to realize they have a Vested interest. But Ian, you know, he's a coach, an assistant coach. He's a great friend, I'm sure. But also, you know, he doesn't want to get hung up on this.

Allison (53:44)

Of course. So years went by without any arrest until Mary Rain began running for District attorney's office in 2013. She pushed for advancements in Garrett's case. And during her run for office, billboards started popping up with the slogan justice for Garrett. And this made some people believe that she was maybe using Garrett's murder to fuel her campaign.

Mike (54:05)

She was.

Allison (54:06)

And also, Ian left Clarkson University, and he went, like, on the clear opposite side of the state. Many, many, many thousand miles away or whatever it was. Maybe not thousand, but all of a sudden, he's living with his mom while he's got this new job, and billboards start popping up in. So he's like, they're doing this intentionally to taunt me.

Mike (54:27)

Yeah.

Allison (54:28)

So anyway, that was just something interesting, like, justice.

Mike (54:31)

So being like that, Nick's gonna go to jail, and then. Yeah, well, too. For lying, basically.

Allison (54:35)

No. If anything, Ian feared he would. He was saying things that could damn Nick. Like, in some of the things he would. He would say. I forgot even what he was mentioning in the documentary. But you could tell Ian wasn't necessarily, like, lying to protect Nick.

Mike (54:48)

No, because that would be a stupid idea. Like, you have your whole life to live.

Allison (54:51)

Right. Right. So four months after the deposition was held for the lawsuit that Nick filed, District Attorney Mary Rain presented evidence to a grand jury on May 12, 2014, in order to secure an indictment against Nick Hillary for second degree murder. So this was a charge that carried a sentence from 25 years to life in prison. So three days later, he was arrested, and he was held at the St. Lawrence County Correctional Facility for 70 days until he was released on bail in July. So District Attorney Rain suggested that after he left the high school's parking lot at 4:53pm he drove two blocks, he parked his car, and then he jogged an additional two blocks to Garrett's apartments. Although he said that he had given Tandy her key back in September and he had made no copies, she believes that he entered the apartment with a key, that he attacked Garrett, and he fled from that second story window. So In October of 2014, the judge dismissed the indictment against Nick Hillary, citing an opinion that the prosecution heavily relied on circumstantial evidence, as well as the fact that not one single eyewitness could place Nick anywhere where she was, suggesting that if he parked two blocks away and jogged not one single person said, I saw Nick running that way. And then back again.

Mike (56:14)

Somebody would have one said that because this whole town wants him to go to jail for it.

Allison (56:17)

Right. And again, he stands out in this town because he is the only black person basically in town. And everyone knows him because he's the head soccer coach at Clarkson University.

Mike (56:26)

They would know the black soccer coach was running.

Allison (56:29)

Not one single person said they saw him anywhere near that apartment building. So another thing that they said was that Mary Rain's grand jury questioning of Nick's teenage daughter, Shanna King, who was his main alibi witness, her questioning was considered to be bullying and improper. And Shanna K. Was like, whoa. Well, that was really, really, really rough.

Mike (56:54)

Shouldn't the lawyer stand up for her, you know, like Shanna's lawyer, and say, like, you know, objection. I don't know.

Allison (56:58)

And who knows? Maybe they did. So Shanna K. Who had been in high school at the time, she testified in front of this grand jury that she had been with her dad on the day of Garrett's murder. She said, I got home from soccer at 4:30 because it was raining, and my dad came home a little bit before five. However, on February 2, 2015, D A Mary Rain gathered another grand jury, and Nick was indicted for the second time on second degree murder charges. So it can be noted that three years later, in June of 2018, Mary Rain was barred from practicing law in New York for two years for what is considered to be severe and persistent misconduct. In 2016, two years before this happened, law professor Bennett Gershom dubbed her the most dangerous prosecutor in New York State, going on to claim that she had made a mockery of the justice system and that her professional career was littered with lawless conduct and an almost pathological ability to show discord and controversy everywhere she went. So as they were preparing for trial, Sarah Johnson, a St. Lawrence University trustee, she helped fund Nick's legal expenses while Norman Siegel and Earl Ward worked to defend him. So using a software program developed by a lab in New Zealand called STR Mix D, A William Fitzpatrick ordered another analysis of the minute DNA that was found under Garrett's fingernail. So the program is said to derive DNA evidence from microscopic amounts of biological matter. So these results determined that the DNA mixture was from Garrett himself, while the other was a partial profile of someone who was millions of times more likely to be Nick Hillary than a random stranger. And everyone thought that this seemed highly suspicious because the previous tests had not been a match to Nick. They were a match to some Unknown person. So when the judge held a pre trial hearing to assess the admissibility of this new DNA report, it was decided that it would not be allowed to be presented during the trial because the sample size was too small and the state crime lab that handled the DNA wasn't even STR mix validated. So with this, the trial would be really solely relying on circumstantial evidence. So the trial began on September 12, 2016.

Mike (59:27)

What a waste of taxpayer money.

Allison (59:28)

I, I am shocked that this has reached a trial with literally nothing but Nick Hillary's quote unquote disdain of Garrett and the fact that he turned left out of the high school. That's, that's what this trial is based on. So it lasted three weeks. It was held in Canton, New York. And this was a time when Nick chose, at the very last hour, the day of the trial, he and his lawyers said, we are waiving his right to a jury trial. And they chose to have a bench trial, meaning that the case would be heard by Judge Felix Catena would be the sole deciding factor of the verdict. Nearly five years after Garrett's murder, because Nick knew that because of his race and the fact that the most of the people in the town had him considered guilty from the get go, that he didn't stand a chance in front of a jury.

Mike (60:24)

Yeah, I didn't know you can choose. That's co. Yeah.

Allison (60:26)

So he thought he had zero percent chance of winning if he was going to have a jury decide his fate.

Mike (60:31)

Yeah. And you know, these scumbags are going to like pepper the jury with the people that they want in there.

Allison (60:35)

Yeah. And I liked Judge Catena because he just seemed like he really listened.

Mike (60:41)

Well, that's what a judge should do. Like, it's crazy that we think that that's like admirable. It's like, yeah, judge is supposed to listen and listen to both sides and make a judgment. Like, like with all the information, there shouldn't be a one sided judge. It's insane.

Allison (60:53)

So the prosecution flew Andrew Carranza in from Hawaii. This is the man that had been outside of Garrett's apartment changing his tire with his girlfriend, Shannon Harris, during the time frame that Garrett was attacked and strangled. So when he and Shannon first provided statements immediately following Garrett's murder, they were asked, have you, did you see a person or did you see movement from up in that window? And they said, no, we saw nothing. We were wondering when we were changing the car. What the hell is that, by the way?

Mike (61:25)

This is the only, should be the only admissible stuff in court, because as we all know, your memory gets much, much worse, and then you can also be influenced by other people.

Allison (61:34)

So we're talking five years later now. So the day of Garrett's murder, they're like, no, we had no idea what that noise was. We didn't see anyone. We didn't. We didn't see nothing. We saw nothing.

Mike (61:44)

That's the time where you need the information, because everybody's all into it and emotional. They want to find this murderer. Right. It's like, if you would remember anything, it would be that moment.

Allison (61:51)

Right? And now, five years later, Andrew is indicating that he saw a black man standing in the window.

Mike (61:57)

It, like, reminds me of that, like, joke from the 80s. It was a black guy. Like, it was like. That's the first thing, really. It's like, really? Come on, man.

Allison (62:05)

So Shannon hears about this, and she's like, what the flying F. She calls Andrew. She's like, what the F are you doing? She's like, you know perfectly well that while we were down there changing that tire, we didn't see a damn thing. And he's like, oh, no, Yeah, I saw. Yeah, I did.

Mike (62:21)

I saw a black guy.

Allison (62:22)

Black eye. So despite.

Mike (62:24)

Athletic. Looked like a possible soccer coach. Yeah, I don't know who it was, but I would guess he played soccer. Athletic.

Allison (62:30)

And he was a black guy.

Mike (62:31)

Yeah.

Allison (62:32)

So while he was on the stand, Andrew testified that he saw a figure peeking out from the window in question. But DA Fitzpatrick never asked for a description. I think they kind of knew that,

Mike (62:44)

like, who they were going after.

Allison (62:45)

How well and how can you say now, five years later, that you saw a black man, yet hours after Garrett's murder, you didn't?

Mike (62:51)

Yeah.

Allison (62:52)

So meanwhile, Nick's lawyers requested a mistrial one day after the trial began because they accused prosecutors of withholding information regarding a witness from them. So this witness is Greg Brown, and he claimed to have seen Jon Jones on the street where Tandy lived with her boys at the time of the murder. So police previously indicated that they had surveillance video showing John near his home during the time frame in question. And Greg Brown is making a statement indicating that he was walking past the apartment building's parking lot on Market street about 15 minutes before Garrett would have gotten home. And he noticed John's black Chevy Silverado parked there. He claimed to have seen him get out of the truck and walk to the apartment complex. When he was asked, how sure are you that it was Jon Jones? On a scale of 1 to 10, he said he was a 20 yet the defense knew nothing about this guy. So, according to the prosecutor, Mary Rain, although she was aware that Greg Brown had come forward, she was told that his statement wasn't truthful. Therefore, it was nothing to even pay attention to. So she hadn't mentioned it to Nick's lawyers. So, Judge Katana, he did say that was really shady behavior, but he denied the defense's call for a dismissal. And after 90 minutes of interviewing Greg Brown, Nick's lawyers chose not to call him to testify as a witness because they felt he was unreliable. At that point in time, he couldn't remember certain critical details. You could say five years had passed, and maybe that's why.

Mike (64:25)

Well, this also gets the defense some time to look into this guy and see if he's somebody that can be trusted or not. Like, all these possible things or where he was at this time. You know, get to see if there was receipts, like, you weren't there. You just see this guy.

Allison (64:35)

Yeah. So they didn't think it was going to help them to bring him to the stand. So closing evidence was presented on September 23, 2016, and now it was in Judge Katana's hands to come back with a verdict, and he did, five days later. So this happened on September 28th of 2016? Yeah. 16. So, Mike, what do you think Judge Katana found oral Nick Hillary?

Mike (65:01)

I. I would imagine not guilty. Not guilty.

Allison (65:06)

He found him not guilty.

Mike (65:08)

Okay.

Allison (65:08)

Yes. So In June of 2022, Nick Hillary filed a second civil rights lawsuit against the village of Potsdam, citing that Murray and other county personnel violated his civil rights, singling him out as the only suspect immediately following Garrett's death. But In July of 2023, this was dismissed in an appeals court.

Mike (65:29)

How is that possible? Man?

Allison (65:31)

I don't know.

Mike (65:32)

I guess CU potentially murdered the kids,

Allison (65:34)

but he was found not guilty.

Mike (65:36)

That doesn't mean he didn't do it. It was fine.

Allison (65:38)

A court of law. You are considered not guilty.

Mike (65:40)

Yeah. Yeah, he's not guilty. I know he's not guilty, but it doesn't mean that, like, he definitely didn't do it. It means the evidence brought up means that that couldn't make him guilty. Right. Maybe I'm not a lawyer, obviously, but I. Yeah. Not saying it could be anybody still, because we haven't found out who it was.

Allison (65:54)

So since that time, Nick still struggles to rebuild his life due to the negativity that's associated with his name. If you search up his name, it's going to be connected to Garrett Phillips, and he feels he'll forever Be in a, in a disadvantaged position.

Mike (66:10)

Oh, he's not getting hired anywhere.

Allison (66:11)

So he's focusing on raising his children. And he's now coaching club soccer. So you have to imagine like this guy, his life changed forever. He lost his job, his reputation. He was in jail for 70 days. I mean, that's more than two months in jail.

Mike (66:26)

Ridiculous.

Allison (66:27)

So in March of 2019, the new D. A Gary Pasqua indicated that the police are looking into new leads in Garrett's case, which is considered an open and ongoing case. So in 2019, this is the documentary I kept referring to. HBO Max released the two part True Crime documentary. It was very good. It was well done. It's called who killed Garrett Phillips? It covers Garrett's murder as well as the investigation. It highlights the issues of racial bias and prosecution, prosec, prosecutorial misconduct. So 12 year old Garrett Phillips, he remains at the heart of this case. And I wanted that to be for sure what I closed on because there's so much back and forth about who thinks Nick is guilty, who's not guilty. John Jones, Nick race play. But at the heart of this case is a 12 year old little boy that lost his life that day. And it sounds to me that somebody was up there in that apartment waiting for him when he got home from school and before he could leave again for basketball practice. And this case remains unsolved. So that means that the person responsible for his death is still out there and hasn't been held accountable for what he did or she did or whoever did to Garrett Phillips. And meanwhile, Tandy Cyrus is raising money for after school programs in her son's memory. So before we end today's episode, I would just love to take a second just to remember Garrett Phillips. He was a big brother. He was a grandson, a cousin, a friend, and a nephew. He was a young boy that loved being active. He was playing sports constantly on the go, according to his teacher. Although he was hilarious and he was a class clown, he was always respectful. And Tandy describes her son as someone who was always happy and just wanted to help others if someone needed something. Garrett was like, ah, gotcha. So he never got the chance to complete sixth grade, to get his driver's license, to graduate from high school, have his first love to get married. And his life should have stretched on for many more decades. And he's so much more than just headlines, courtroom drama, and endless arguments about what happened on the evening in October of 2011 that led to his death. And that is the sad and tragic murder of Garrett Phillips.

Mike (68:46)

And you're absolutely right. It sucks that we take the focus off of Garrett and make this a racial versus power issue. Like, it's unfortunate, but that's what the police chose to do with this whole thing, especially with this idiot Marin. Mary Rain. Like, just a witch hunt.

Allison (69:00)

It was a total. She was. That was her mission. It was a witch hunt.

Mike (69:05)

It already was before that. Then Mary Rain's like, well, you thought it was bad before. I'm coming in. The new sheriff in town doused it

Allison (69:12)

with gasoline and threw a match on it.

Mike (69:14)

This. I can't say too many things because she's probably a lawyer. No, she was disbarred.

Allison (69:18)

She was disbarred for two years in 2018. So she's. That was until 2020.

Mike (69:23)

I. This is the strongest thing I'll say. I feel very negatively towards Mary Rain.

Allison (69:27)

I as well. I do as well. And I can't believe he was able to be arrested with. He turned left.

Mike (69:34)

Well, you can. You can arrest anybody for anything, but usually they have to pay for it, for doing it unnecessarily. But unfortun, Nick still, like, he has no money from this whole thing. It's kind of crazy. Not. We can't say, you know, he. He was definitely detained incorrectly and unlawfully. Like, there was so many just things that happened that don't make any sense.

Allison (69:53)

Yeah. And I would encourage you to watch the documentary because it will make you feel something and you will feel anger.

Mike (70:00)

Yeah. And also, you got to keep in mind, the documentary is trying to make you feel a certain way. So clearly they think Nick's innocent. Right.

Allison (70:06)

And I mean, you gotta keep tell from my tone where I stand.

Mike (70:09)

You're. You're right in line with that documentary, which is. Okay, it's. You know, you have feelings, but you gotta realize that we still don't know. And like, unfortunately, this stupid ass police were wasting their time when they should have found Garrett's murderer. You know, like, they're. The DNA is gonna tell us. It's not gonna be a new lead. A new lead's not gonna come up out of nowhere and be like, hey, actually, I did see something.

Allison (70:29)

It's gonna be somebody saying something. Damning. They're gonna say something and trip up and mention it, and then, boom. The fingerprint is a match to this person.

Mike (70:37)

I think it's got to be a kid. What do you think?

Allison (70:39)

And they. They thought about that. They're like, what if it was a couple of Garrett's classmates?

Mike (70:44)

That's the first thing I. Before I remembered That I saw some of this documentary. I'm like, it has to be a kid. It had like they had gotten into a fight, like, who's the troublemaker that he hung out with or that they knew in that school, like who was the worst kid in the school? Look at that kid. Like these, when we tell these stories, it's always looking back being like, oh, of course they were the ones that murdered another kid.

Allison (71:03)

And you know what gets me is that while Marissa and Sean were sitting there eating and listening to Dexter, they heard a loud thump. And obviously that was Garrett's body falling. Somebody was strangling him. Somebody killed him. And they're still not being held responsible for this.

Mike (71:20)

And like if you're in the Potsdam area, like, who was some of the bad kids that went to school with Garrett? Right. Like, I don't maybe necessarily name them, but are there people that are being looked into? Because that's the low hanging fruit to me. I think it's another fellow kid that maybe they got in an argument or whatever. Whatever. Or maybe it was an argument. Maybe like you said before, it was a game or something.

Allison (71:38)

Well, you know how the kids were playing those like stupid things where they would like choke themselves until they passed out? Yeah.

Mike (71:44)

I think an adult would have been like, oh man, he choked him. You know, he choked on something. I tried to help him, you know, would have stayed there instead of jumping out. I don't know, it just seems like it's. It's wreaking of a kid.

Allison (71:54)

Yeah. And it's just so sad. And I just can't believe that whoever killed Garrett hasn't been found.

Mike (72:00)

And like, can you imagine an adult sitting there waiting for him and killing a kid? Like, that's crazy.

Allison (72:05)

Right? Right, Exactly. And I don't know.

Mike (72:07)

And kids are dumb. You know, they're. I'm not dumb. Not all kids are dumb, but I'm

Allison (72:10)

just like, well, they do things and don't think of the consequences.

Mike (72:13)

Yeah.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (72:13)

Like this is.

Mike (72:13)

This is reeks of a kid.

Allison (72:15)

The thing is though, that was fifth. It's. This October will be 15 years. So you know, these kids now would be upwards of almost 30.

Mike (72:23)

Well, yeah, but whoever would have done this is probably in jail already for doing something else stupid because they're probably a terrible person. Right. So.

Allison (72:29)

Yeah.

Mike (72:30)

Or maybe dead. So we might never know. Yeah. So sorry, Garrett. It's to your family and. Yeah.

Allison (72:35)

And it's just so sad seeing him on the ripstick and that you. They catch him on a couple of cameras up at the hospital and stuff like that. And you think, my gosh, in minutes someone's going to be strangling you when you see that footage.

Mike (72:46)

We shouldn't go. Just pick him up. Yeah, you're gonna be okay, buddy.

Allison (72:49)

But it was a well done documentary, so if you have hbo, Max, you know, check it out. And if you're watching us on YouTube, Mike has a tattoo on his arm. I just saw you raise your arm. It's not real. I had this fake tattoo.

Mike (73:02)

I would never get a real tattoo. It's only for trash balls. Just kidding. I'm kidding. I know we have. People have tattoos. It's just rage bait. If you got rage.

Allison (73:09)

I also have nine tattoos. So you're also trying to rage bait me. And I'm not gonna let you. Don't touch my breast. So I was telling Mike because he loves crows so much and he feeds them and he calls them his crow bros. I told Mike he should get a tattoo of a crow and then underneath it. Right, bro?

Mike (73:25)

Or I can just like crows. No, not have to deface my body.

Allison (73:28)

You have to get attacked.

Mike (73:29)

No, I don't. I can just enjoy life and I don't have to get marks on my body.

Allison (73:33)

I put a fake one on my arm because I want to do something in honor of my mom who passed away at the end of October. So I like to put a fake one there just to see how it looks. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I got the fever. Tattoo fever.

Mike (73:48)

She loves tattoos. I don't care if people get tattoos. That's fine. Get what you want.

Allison (73:52)

I don't care if my husband calls me a trash ball, because I know I am.

Mike (73:54)

You're not a trash ball. I like to see all your tattoos touch me. I like removing your clothing and looking at every single one of your textures.

Allison (74:00)

Well, you're not doing that.

Mike (74:01)

And sorry, father in law, if you're watching this.

Allison (74:03)

Okay, so anyway, thank you guys so very much. We hope you are having a good week. We hope you're having a good Sunday. And if you like us, please head over, leave us a 5 star review

Mike (74:13)

that actually helps quite a bit. 5 star review. Put in like crime, coffee, couple couple podcasts like that helps the SEO and AI. AI picks up on those things. So if you have an Apple iPhone, go over to the podcast and be like, oh, great. Crime, coffee, couple, all that kind of stuff. Stuff a couple podcasts like, use those words for us. It helps quite a bit.

Allison (74:29)

Yeah, we would appreciate it. I know nobody wants to take those minutes and go over and do it, but we would so appreciate it. And if you want to head over to YouTube and, like, and subscribe, we'd so much appreciate that. We finally got over 10,000 followers on YouTube, so we're looking to grow.

Mike (74:44)

We are.

Allison (74:44)

Celebrate good times.

Mike (74:46)

Come on.

Allison (74:47)

Anyway, until next time.

Mike (74:49)

Bye.