The murder of James Bulger | Ep 232

Summary

Crime and Coffee Couple – The Murder of James Bulger | Ep 232

February 15, 2026 | Hosted by Allison & Mike

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Episode Overview

In this harrowing episode, Allison and Mike explore the infamous 1993 murder of two-year-old James Bulger in the UK—a case that shocked the world due to the brutality and, above all, the age of the perpetrators: two ten-year-olds. The chatty, coffee-fueled couple balances their trademark wit and warmth with deep respect for the victim, teasing out the details, context, and aftermath of a crime that remains one of the most disturbing in modern memory.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Cozy Banter, Then a Stark Content Warning

• The duo begins with lighthearted banter about family, crow-feeding, and Allison’s Skittles-related dental misadventure before shifting tone dramatically.
• Allison issues a sensitive content warning at [09:43]: "I will tell you a little warning before we get started. This is a doozy. It's awful. It involves violence against a two year old little boy."

The Victim: James Bulger’s Early Life

• James, born in 1990, was a light in his parents’ lives after a previous stillbirth ([10:44]).
• Allison and Mike reflect on the innocence and wonder of two-year-olds, drawing personal parallels with their own family.

The Abduction: Timeline and Immediate Aftermath

• On February 12, 1993, James disappears from a shopping center while his mother is momentarily distracted ([13:05]).
• Panic mounts: announcements over mall loudspeakers, a frantic search, and ultimately, a missing persons case.
• Police recover CCTV footage showing James being led away—not by an adult, as feared, but by two boys ([15:00]).

Misplaced Assumptions and Shocking Discoveries

• Initial focus is on adult suspects; the reality that children are offenders stuns investigators and the public ([15:35]).
• Over the weekend, search efforts intensify, but on February 14, James’s body is found on train tracks—discovered by a young boy less than 150 yards from the police station ([16:44]).
• 38 witnesses saw the trio (James and the two boys) between the mall and the murder site; many saw distress or even violence but failed to intervene ([16:44], [19:57], [23:08]).

"Sadly, most of these people did absolutely nothing. And those that did stop to question them soon just let them go..."
—Allison, [16:44]

The Perpetrators: Identification and Arrest

• Break comes from an anonymous tip linking two school-absent ten-year-olds—Robert Thompson and Jon Venables—to the crime ([19:57]).
• Both are arrested within days; evidence includes paint stains and blood ([35:08]).

The Crime: Chilling Details and Missed Opportunities

• Mike and Allison painstakingly recount the boys’ movements—from unsuccessful earlier abduction attempts, to luring James, traversing busy streets, surviving repeated encounters with adults who did not intervene, and finally, the grisly crime itself ([20:09]–[31:50]).
• The abduction involved deception ("he's our brother"/"we're taking him to the police"), manipulation, and escalating violence.

"They brought blue paint... opened the paint and splashed it into James's left eye. They kicked him, they pummeled him with bricks and stones, they forced batteries into his mouth..."
—Allison, [31:27]

• The boys staged James’s body on the tracks to simulate an accident.

The Investigation: Community Fury and Media Frenzy

• Strong public reaction: riots erupt at accused boys’ homes, and uninvolved families face vigilante attacks due to mistaken identity ([34:28]).
• Investigation struggles with suspecting such young children due to the severity of the crime ([35:19]).

The Trial: Legal and Societal Repercussions

• Jon and Robert, only 11 by trial, are charged as "Child A" and "Child B."
• Both are sentenced "at Her Majesty’s pleasure"—imprisonment with an eight-year minimum, subject to review ([41:48]).
• Community outrage over the lightness of the minimum; public struggles with the possibility of rehabilitation for such young, violent offenders.

"Robert confessed that he and John had taken James... and there was a chilling moment when he imitated a wailing James who was begging for his mother."
—Allison, [39:47]

The Aftermath: Rehabilitation, Recidivism, and Ongoing Debate

• Both boys are released at 18 with new identities and lifetime anonymity ([41:48]).
• Robert leads a quiet life, no known reoffending.
• Jon Venables is repeatedly re-imprisoned for child pornography offenses ([47:38]).
• The press and public remain divided on rehabilitation, justice, and how to protect society.
• James’s parents divorce under the strain; both eventually remarry and have more children ([53:25]). His mother founds the James Bulger Memorial Trust ([53:49]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the culture of non-intervention:

"As human beings, it is our responsibility to step in and help people."
—Allison, [24:55]

On the impossibility of understanding:

"No one has been unable to understand what prompted them to do this."
—Allison, [41:08]

On Jon Venables’ continued danger:

"John is a waste on society... If John, if you're listening, just get rid of yourself, that'd be great."
—Mike & Allison, [47:29–47:40]

On the system’s failures in assessment and release:

"He was in a controlled situation. He doesn't have access to the Internet... So a member of Parliament believed that James's family should have been given more information as to why the boys were being released after eight years."
—Allison, [51:28]

On parental grief and hope:

"Their baby Michael was like another chance of hope and a reason to get out of bed."
—Allison, [53:26]

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Important Timestamps

• 09:43 – Content warning & episode topic introduction
• 10:44 – Background on James Bulger, his family, and the abduction
• 13:05–15:35 – Disappearance, search, and discovery of CCTV footage
• 16:44–24:49 – Witnesses, public response, and failed interventions
• 29:27–31:50 – The murder and forensic details
• 35:08–39:47 – Investigation, confession, and trial details
• 41:48 – Sentencing and legal context
• 47:29–49:07 – Jon Venables' post-release crimes and continuing risk
• 53:25–53:49 – Aftermath for James's family and his mother’s activism
• 60:00–60:50 – Reflections on bystander intervention and lessons

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Reflections & Lessons

Societal Repercussions and Bystander Duty

Allison and Mike repeatedly highlight how easy it was, and how many opportunities there were, for adults to intervene and save James. Their tone remains sensitive, occasionally angry, and consistently compassionate to the victim’s family.

Allison’s closing reflection:

"...if you see something concerning, you have to as a human being, especially when it comes to children, step in as the adults. You need to do something about what you're seeing..."
—[60:00]

On Victims’ Legacies

Allison notes the importance of telling and retelling stories like James’s:

"I just do believe that their names need to be remembered. You know, their stories do need to be remembered..."
—[58:44]

Personal Takeaway

The case serves as a chilling reminder of the need for proactive vigilance and compassion. The episode is a difficult listen—one the hosts themselves struggle to deliver—but powerfully honors the short life of James Bulger.

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For further resources:

• James Bulger Memorial Trust

Listener suggestion credits: Natalie and Savannah.

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Note

This summary omits advertisements, sponsor messages, and non-content tangents to provide a focused account of the episode’s discussion. For full context and nuanced banter, listening to the episode is encouraged.

Transcript

[Allison]

If you, your parent or spouse served in the military, you could join our family. Our members saved an average of $70 a month on auto insurance when they switched. Tap the banner or visit usaa.com join today to check your eligibility restrictions apply. Based on a New York Times best thriller comes 56 Days, starring Dove Cameron.

[Mike]

A story of love.

[Allison]

Sorry. I'm Oliver.

[Mike]

I'm Ciara. Lies.

[Allison]

So do you like secrets?

[Mike]

No, I like reveals. Seduction.

[Allison]

It's like they were obsessed with each other. And murder.

[Mike]

What do you got here? Body in the bathtub.

[Allison]

56 Days premieres February 18th on Prime Video. I'm gonna get you. Not if I get you first. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Crime and Coffee Couple. My name's Alison.

[Mike]

And my name's Mike.

[Allison]

Hi, Mike.

[Mike]

Hello, my beautiful pumpkin princess. I always think, pumpkin, I don't know why not, that you look like a pumpkin or shaped like a pumpkin. But, you know, pumpkins are, like, warm and cozy, and you're warm and cozy.

[Allison]

Oh, thank you.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How you doing today?

[Allison]

I'm doing okay. How are you?

[Mike]

I'm good. Welcome to the show, by the way, for those of you watching at home or listening at home or in your car or wherever you are while you're doing laundry.

[Allison]

And if you're new to us, I'm Allison, this is Mike, and we host a true crime podcast. And that's what this is. We've been married for 23 years. I deliver the story, Mike listens. He goes, mm.

[Mike]

That's probably the biggest part of my job. And it's hard, you believe it or not. It's. It's, you know, you gotta know when to say the. Oh. Like, at the right time. So I try to ask the questions that you guys might not. This is my first time hearing this story, so all. Every single story.

[Allison]

Yeah. So along with you guys, Mike's hearing it for the first time, too.

[Mike]

Yeah. Yeah. And I usually don't remember them, so I was just thinking, like, that crime con is coming up in, like, September.

[Allison]

So I think it's in May.

[Mike]

May. Okay. Well, I was way off, so I don't remember a lot of things. And it turns out that, like, if people came up to us and they met us, like, oh, my gosh, you know that story about blah, blah, blah, and you were talking to me, I'd be like. But in head, I'd have no idea. Allison, come over here and help me out here. Because I have no idea what they're talking about.

[Allison]

Oh, yeah.

[Mike]

For my own Self preservation. I try to get rid of it.

[Allison]

I hear you, brother. I hear you.

[Mike]

Yeah. So in the meantime, while I'm not remembering true crime stories, I try to feed crows in our backyard. And I just had a very successful crow feeding.

[Allison]

Oh, Mike was pumped. It is a good day.

[Mike]

Oh, it's wonderful. It's very early morning here on the weekend while we're recording this, and it was just. Oh, it was so nice. I heard a little crow in the backyard, and I was like, oh, this is one of my crow bros. And I look back there and, like, he's still sitting there. And my son's like, yeah, he's out here dead. So I chopped up an EG and I threw it out there for him. Maybe a couple peanuts. And then the family came around. There's like four of them that always come around.

[Allison]

And then we were all watching them from the back window. Our son, me, our dog, our one cat. And our other cat was outside on the patio. And in Florida, a lot of patios are screened in like ours, and there was a crow standing above him just screaming down at our black cats.

[Mike]

Yeah. So he was kind of like, looking out for the other two crows. It was cool. So, yeah, there was a three total today, but usually there's three or four.

[Allison]

Yeah, it was an exciting day in the pari house.

[Mike]

It's, you know, it's the little things and just feeding crows and making sure that they know that they've got some food every once in a while. You don't want to become dependent on you. But just a little. I'm. I'm a safe human. That's all I want them to know.

[Allison]

And another news. I hit a new rock bottom last episode, I think it was. We talked about my Skittles addiction. And the universe is trying to scream at me to end what I'm doing. And the path that I'm going down, it's. It's not good. I'm getting in deep.

[Mike]

Well, you're an addict.

[Allison]

And I was doing research happily yesterday, munching on some Skittles, and I put a few on the table next to me. And you know how you're, like, mindlessly taking and you're not sure that you're out? So I reach for just that one more. Gone. I'm like, I just don't feel mentally satisfied.

[Mike]

Yeah, because you had in your head that you're going to have one more.

[Allison]

Yeah. So I pull the bag back out. A pop of Skittles in my mouth. I'm chewing, chew and chew. And I'm like, wow, the center of the skittles is very hard and it just doesn't seem to be dissolving. I'm like, the something's not right here. I spit it out. It's half of my tooth.

[Mike]

And she. And you were like, oh, it's my tooth. I was like, what?

[Allison]

Oh my gosh. And then I shoved my tongue to the back of my mouth and the farthest back right molar was cracked basically in half. So I of course start panicking. I'm waiting to feel immense pain. But thankfully the nerve must have not been fully exposed. Yeah, I had a lot of cold sensitivity and hot sensitivity.

[Mike]

When I asked you, you didn't say that you did.

[Allison]

Well, no. When you handed me my tea, I was like, oh, wow. Wow, that's sensitive.

[Mike]

Well, I also, I was in the middle of making some tea her some yerba mate and I was like, this is probably the worst time to have something hot in your mouth.

[Allison]

Yeah, well, the tooth broke after you started making me the tea.

[Mike]

Right, I know, but it's like right now it's probably most sensitive.

[Allison]

It was. And so it was 4pm on a Friday and our dentist closes at 2. So I called and I was like, maybe it's not an emergency. I left a message like, okay, you can call me back on Monday. And then Mike's like, I'm like, I'm just so scared. At like 2 in the morning, I'm going to be dealing with terrible pain. Mike's like, well, it's kind of an emergency. Your tooth is in half.

[Mike]

We've been with these dentists, they're awesome local. They for like 10 plus years, it's.

[Allison]

Been since they opened their practice back in 2009. So we were literally one of their first patients. They're like two years older than us. We've had our children at the same time.

[Mike]

Not like literally, but.

[Allison]

Yeah, well, no, I mean like our kids are all around the same age.

[Mike]

I was picturing like having them in the dentist's office. We had them there in the dentist's office. We had them deliver the babies.

[Allison]

We didn't deliver the children in the dentist's office. But I'm just saying we've been with them for 16 years. And so I was like, we've never.

[Mike]

Called them about any. Like they're, we're very easy patients. Yeah, very.

[Allison]

Right. We are every six month appointment and we, we leave, we say bye, bye.

[Mike]

Five star Google reviews across the board. We help them out any way we can. And they're a great practice.

[Allison]

So she is a saint. And she came into the office and opened it for me at 5:15 on a Friday, and she got me prepped for a crown. So in a couple of weeks, I'm going to go get that process under control. But honestly, I tell you, this is a sign that I need to stop what I'm doing.

[Mike]

Yeah. And what are the chances you stop e?

[Allison]

Oh, I have to. I'm very determined. I won't stop eating them. Like, I'm never going to touch Skittles again.

[Mike]

Right.

[Allison]

Maybe just not eat them on a near daily basis.

[Mike]

Well, yeah, because our son was out and about and you were like, can you have them stop for Skittles? I'm kind of running low on these. And it's like you just always wanted to have just in the backup bag.

[Allison]

I just like a little sweet treat after I'm done eating a meal.

[Mike]

And it's not like you're eating a bag. Right? Right.

[Allison]

I'm eating like a handful of them a day.

[Mike]

Like, if it was 10, if it was me, you're like, you know how you have like one or two set there? I'm like, no, that'd be like. I'd shovel them into my mouth and be like. And then like, be lick. You know, just. It's just enjoying the juice and everything. Oh, man.

[Allison]

Oh. So this was just. Oh, my gosh. It was just crazy.

[Mike]

I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

[Allison]

I was all numb to the gills.

[Mike]

Also, why don't you tell our.

[Allison]

Oh, yes.

[Mike]

So T shirt.

[Allison]

Yeah, if you can see my T shirt if you're watching us on YouTube. But if not, it's our daughters. And she begrudgingly let me borrow it. So I wrote this in front of her. So I said, I'm wearing my lovely daughter's T shirt that she let me borrow begrudgingly because I don't know dip. And by the way, that's her word, not mine. I don't know dip about the band, including their name, even though she told.

[Mike]

Me multiple times it's together by together, right?

[Allison]

No, but she's told me yet again. And the name of the band is Wave to Earth, and the song is bad. And the line on the T shirt that I love so much is, how can my day be bad when I'm with you? So if you're curious about it, the band is Wave to Earth. The song is bad. I loved the message. I'm here with my best friend and my partner in life, so I thought, oh, it might be nice to wear this T shirt while we do our podcast. So not so much in her opinion. She's like a little drill sergeant.

[Mike]

Yeah, big time. Like, she had like a personal vendetta against you wearing this. Like, it was. This was a struggle. This wasn't like, can I please? She's like, I don't know. Okay, fine. It was like, no, you don't know the band. No. And I'm like, well, it's a nice saying, like. And it advertises for your band, which, I mean, they're way bigger than any of us could ever imagine.

[Allison]

She's like the gatekeeper to this band.

[Mike]

Yeah. Don't gatekeep. Don't gatekeep, bro.

[Allison]

And I tell you, she's this 14 year old, beautiful young lady and she's. She's a little scary.

[Mike]

Well, what do you think she gets it from?

[Allison]

I'm a little scared.

[Mike]

Yeah, that's all right. Welcome to the world.

[Allison]

It was so cute. Mike was showing me an old video of our daughter and she was wearing a dress. I just couldn't stand this dress. And Mike's like, oh, you're wearing that dress. And she's like, mommy doesn't like it. And she puts her hands on her hips and she's like. And I'm going to tell her that's not nice.

[Mike]

And Reese loved it. She just wore it. She's wore proudly. She was. That's our girl.

[Allison]

So she's very headstrong.

[Mike]

Yeah. This band, by the way, they're pretty good. Like, my. Our daughter's into K pop and anime and a bunch of stuff. I always call her an anime dork. No, no offense. I enjoyed the Demon Sl or Demon. I don't not. No, I think it's Demon Slayer.

[Allison]

Demon Slayer?

[Mike]

Yeah. Everybody's like, oh, Demon Hunter on Netflix. No, no, no. Demon Slayer. It's a movie. It's a whole different anime, so whatever. But yeah, how can my day be bad with. I'm with you and our listeners.

[Allison]

Right, right. Exactly. When we're with you, our day is good. And wave to earth. I was like, are they K Pop? And she's like, no, they're more rock. I'm like, so they're K rock? And she's like, that doesn't exist.

[Mike]

They're K pop for sure. She's crazy.

[Allison]

I'm like, okay. I don't know.

[Mike]

They're very poppy. I definitely. I. I actually like them. So I. Some of their songs are like very Jason Mrazi a little bit. And they're good.

[Allison]

Yeah, I like so real quick, I also wanted to give a quick shout out to our YouTube channel subscriber and listener, Janae Nay and her lovely dog, Henry. Hello, guys. Welcome.

[Mike]

Henry's a good boy.

[Allison]

Who's a good boy? Henry's a good boy. Poppy's like, I'm a tear his ass up.

[Mike]

That's how our dog talks.

[Allison]

Yeah, she talks about that to all, any animal in this neighborhood, including our peacock. Our neighborhood peacock. I'm a terror. It's ass.

[Mike]

What'd you name the peacock?

[Allison]

Our. Our peacock is Blue Cocky, because he's blue and peacock. So, yeah, yeah, we're always like, good morning, Blue Cocky.

[Mike]

Morning.

[Allison]

All right, so are you ready to dive into this terrible cup of coffee? Because this one really is terrible. This is a listener suggestion from Natalie and Savannah. And I will tell you a little warning before we get started. This is a doozy. It's awful. It involves violence against a two year old little boy. So this is the murder of James Bulger. So In February of 1993, the UK was forced to confront a crime so incredibly disturbing that it shattered everyone's assumption about innocence. And it left scars that have yet to heal. More than three decades later, when James Bulger was only two years old, he vanished while he and his mother were out running errands at a shopping center. And the details of what followed and what led to his death will haunt you to the core. You will never forget this case. So James Patrick Bulger was born on March 16, 1990 in Kirkby, England, to parents Ralph and Denise Bulger. His birth came after the couple tragically lost their baby girl, who was stillborn. So James was just like this beacon of light in their lives after suffering such an incredible loss. He was a bundle of joy. He had bright blue eyes, brown hair, a precious smile, and a happy, go lucky personality. I mean, there is something special about a two year old. The world is just everything to them. They're learning, they're growing. It's just so exciting to be part of their everyday discovery.

[Mike]

Yeah. Our niece is two years old right now, and I. Yeah. Our son always asks, like, how are you so good with kids? I was like, it gives you an opportunity to be young again yourself. Like, you can make anything a big deal to a two year old. It could be like, oh, this, look at this block. Oh my gosh, look at it. Oh, it's so cool. And then, like, you can, like, pretend and like, you're going back to, like, being a kid again.

[Allison]

It does. It makes you more childlike.

[Mike]

So innocent. So beautiful. I love just, you know, kids and their wonder. It's great.

[Allison]

Yeah. When we were in Chicago, I was down on my hands and knees. We were playing with the princess castle, Cinderella was going to sleep. We were just being all silly. It was just so much fun. So that's what makes this story just any kind of death is just beyond tragic. But when it comes to a child, it's especially hits the heart. So he was a light in Ralph and Denise's world. He was always smiling and making them laugh. However, a routine run to the store about a month before his third birthday ended in unimaginable tragedy, utterly ripping this young family apart from. On Friday, February 12, 1993, Denise James and her sister in law headed out in the late afternoon for their last stop of the day. And they were headed to the New Strand Shopping center in Boodle in Northern England. And this is basically a mall, you could just say it, see it that way. So the trio popped into AR Tim's butcher shop. And while Denise was placing her order, she literally just turned to the butcher to tell him what she wanted. And she momentarily took eyes off of James. But by the time she turned back, he was gone. So she frantically rushed outside searching for her son. And as the minutes continued to tick by, Denise felt like she was stuck in her absolute worst nightmare. And most parents have that moment where you're like, oh my gosh, where are they? And you seriously panic. But normally, oh, there they were, they were right around the corner.

[Mike]

They were hiding. Especially little boys. I used to hide on my mom all the time, always.

[Allison]

And that didn't happen for Denise. The more she looked, she couldn't find him. So overhead announcements were made over the mall's loudspeakers, but there was no sign of James. And eventually the police were contacted. At 4:15pm after the security team had been unable to locate him. They just assumed, oh, I'm sure he wandered off. Someone will hear the overhead announcements and they'll guide James back to us. So Denise told the officers that James had been wearing a blue pullover, hooded jackets with a mustard colored lining, silver tracksuit bottoms and white gym shoes. At 5:30pm the shopping center was closing up for the night as Denise was just racked with fear. She was sick to her stomach. And the police launched a major search for the missing little boy. Because everyone in the mall wants to come together. You hear that announcement, you hear a little two year old is missing, you're gonna look around every store for him. Nobody saw him in that shopping center. So as Friday night came to an end, James was still missing. Night fell and they were terrified by where their little boy could possibly be.

[Mike]

I mean, just imagine coming home at night and you don't have your son or daughter anymore and you're all like, I can't imagine that feeling. Just like such emptiness. They're not at their grandparents, they're not like they're nowhere.

[Allison]

You have no idea, no idea where they are. And obviously staff and people are still combing through the shopping center. And in the meantime, officers were combing over CCTV footage and they did find footage of J names. He was leaving the butcher store nine hours after he met. Went missing is when they found the footage was nine hours after, I mean, 1993.

[Mike]

This is a long time ago, so this footage has got to be garbage.

[Allison]

It is. So only moments later, his frantic mother could be seen rushing out of the butcher store frantically searching for him.

[Mike]

So to be clear, he was he left by himself?

[Allison]

Yes, he left by himself. And then you could see Denise rushing out of the store frantically looking for him. So investigators felt a frigid chill run down their spines as they watched the grainy footage that depicted two year old James being led away by two boys, one of which was holding his hand. And of course, as this is all going on, this investigation is starting, the possibility of an abduction was very real. But they only assumed that had this been the case, James would have been abducted by an adult.

[Mike]

Right.

[Allison]

But they're looking at this footage and they're seeing that the children that are leaving leading him away, their children themselves.

[Mike]

I totally pictured some random dude just taking it. Oh my gosh, two kids.

[Allison]

So the footage made it clear that rather than dealing with a missing child case, they were dealing with an abduction. While Denise frantically searched the ground floor of the shopping center, this is what they're watching on the CCTV footage that they're reviewing. James could be seen on the floor above. Of course, she had no idea that that was the case. And, and he was following these two boys towards the exit and then in the direction of the Leeds Liverpool Canal. And these were sadly, the last recorded images of James alive. So by Sunday, February 14, 1993, it was Valentine's Day and James had been missing for two agonizing days. The police and his family were doing everything in their power to find him. Patrol cars combed through the streets. They were utilizing loudspeakers, you know, calling out for James, calling out for anyone who had seen him. Please come and find us.

[Mike]

On the problem is a 2 year old's not gonna be like, yeah, I'm right here, you know, like they might hear you and just ignore you.

[Allison]

They were relying on the public to come together to help. They were holding press conferences, appealing for the two boys that they saw in this footage with James to please come forward. Searchers were combing over the nearby canals and wasteland areas. And hope came crashing down that very day, February 14, when a young boy came rushing into the Walton Lane police station to say that a body was found on the train tracks. And this was less than 150 yards from the back of the police station and two and a half miles away from the mall. So it was an unimaginable fact that James's little body had been severed by a passing train. So as investigators began speaking with witnesses who had been out and about, not only in that shopping center on that Friday, but also in the area around on the way to the train tracks, because we know that they walked about two and a half miles. So they came to find that a total of 38 people had seen three boys walking around the Merseyside area. So while some of the witnesses indicated that James looked distressed, others disturbingly said that they had even seen the older boys kick and punch the two year old. Sadly, most of these people did absolutely nothing. And those that did stop to question them soon just let them go off on their way ultimately to murder this little toddler. So when confronted by some of the witnesses, the boys told various stories, including that James was their little brother or that he was lost and they were taking him to a local police station. So it wasn't long before an anonymous caller reported to police that the two boys who were responsible were 10 year olds, seemingly ordinary boys. This is Robert Thompson and John Venable. Excuse me. Easy for me to say, Venables. So Robert Thompson and John Venables. So when this information was reported to the public, residents of the UK were unable to wrap their heads around what they were hearing. Not only did the caller indicate that the boys had been absent from school on the day of James disappearance, but that investigators might be able to find evidence on Jon Venable's coat that would tie him to the crime. We're not sure if this was a family member that was making this phone call or what. So five days after James vanished from the shopping center, Robert and John were arrested in their homes in the Liverpool area on Wednesday, February 18th. So it turned out that after the boys had skipped school on that Friday, they spent much of the day at this shopping center where they Led James away. And this is where, you know, innocently, Denise is popping into a butcher store ordering some meat. So they went from store to store. They were stealing whatever they possibly could, and then they were tossing their stolen goods down the escalators just for the fun of it. So for reasons that no one can comprehend, even decades later, the two 10 year olds decided to kidnap someone's child. And after they, I'm sorry, that's a huge leap.

[Mike]

I mean, you're like just doing terrible thing, you know, just being a bad kid, obviously. And then like, oh yeah, let's take this kid and go to kick him and punch. Like that's insane.

[Allison]

Like, where would you possibly come up with this idea at 10 years old?

[Mike]

I have to say my first thought was like, okay, maybe they took him to the canal to go swimming and they didn't realize they have to watch a two year old. But no, they were much, much worse.

[Allison]

The plan from the get go when they wanted to steal anyone's child was not good intentions. They wanted to hurt that child. That was their, their plan from the beginning. So after they were arrested, they soon turned on one another, each blaming the other. Oh, it was their idea. No, it was his. So James had not been the only child that the pair had attempted to abduct that day, as another child actually dodged his fate. So within a TJ Hughes department store, a woman was shopping with her children when she noticed two boys trying to get their attention. Only moments later, it was about 12:30pm she realized that her 2 year old son and her 3 year old daughter were missing. So it's like Denise's experience, she. She panicked and she started running. And thankfully she quickly found her daughter. And she was frantic. She was searching for her son. And when she desperately asked her daughter, where is your brother? Her daughter replied, gone outside with the boy. So as a woman bolted outside calling out for her son, she comes upon these two young boys, Robert and John. And they were urging her son to come, follow me. So as soon as she came upon them, she told her son, go back in that store. She turns around, the boys are just gone. They bolted. So after this aborted double abduction, the boys loitered around a snack shop. They were hoping to steal some candy. And this is when they noticed James Bulger. He was standing by the door of the butcher shop. So at this very moment, Denise was momentarily distracted. She was just getting her items, paying for them. And this was the moment they beckoned the toddler. Come on, follow me. And then John took him by the hand. So as they walked through the mall, several shoppers later told investigators that they noticed the trio. You don't expect to see two 10 year old little boys walking alone with a 2 year old. You expect to see parents, you think.

[Mike]

It'S their brother or something, right?

[Allison]

But even so, like usually 10 year olds don't go off with a 2 year old. So sometimes James would run ahead of the boys and witnesses recall that they would call him back saying, come baby. So according to surveillance video, they exited the shopping center at 3:42pm A time when Denise is running around the first floor of the mall, utterly panicking. So after the boys guided James from the mall, there were times that the two year old would cry out for his mom. And these cries were ignored as they continued to guide him to a secluded area near a canal. And once here, they dropped the toddler on his head. They left him on the ground crying. And a woman actually walked by during this moment. But shockingly, she did absolutely nothing.

[Mike]

Nice job.

[Allison]

And as an adult it is your responsibility whether, you know, like these people or not, you are to step in and intervene and do something.

[Mike]

And sorry to repeat it, but like, so they were carrying him and then dropped them on his head.

[Allison]

Yeah, they were probably picking them up, tossed them back, just, God, they're sick man, sick, you know, when they leave the mall, the boys were just continuing on, urging James to continue to follow. And being so incredibly young and away from the safety of his mother, not knowing what else to do, he did as he was told. And you know, they may have only been 10 years old, but they were older than him and they knew what they were doing. So by this point his forehead was bruised, it had a cut on it. So Robert and John pulled the hood of his jacket up to conceal his injuries. They knew what they were doing. They knew that adults might be like, wait, why is this two year old's head bleeding? So regardless, passersby could be could see his partially covered forehead injury. And one witness described seeing a tear on the young boy's cheek. Yet they did nothing to help. So the older boys guided James past shops, buildings and parking lots until they walked down one of Liverpool's busiest streets. You know, we're talking about 4ish PM at this point in time on a Friday. Some people recalled seeing James laughing and others said that he was resisting and sometimes even screaming for his mom. One person saw Robert kick James in the ribs when he resisted. When a woman saw Robert punch and shake James, she only closed her curtains so that she could no longer see and why she would come forward to tell investigators that, like, you should be so freaking ashamed of yourself.

[Mike]

There's a lot of lowlifes that just said, yeah, I saw it and I didn't do anything about it. Like, I'm Christ.

[Allison]

It's. As human beings, it is our responsibility to step in and help people.

[Mike]

Like an adult hurting another adult. I get you might not want to get into the whole scuffle, but like a 10 year old, like beating a 2 year old, like, you can stop that.

[Allison]

Right.

[Mike]

Really easily.

[Allison]

So when an elderly woman noticed James crying and saw his injuries, she approached the trio to see what was going on. And this was when Robert and John said that they had found this young boy, they had said, at the bottom of the hill. So feeling satisfied with their answer, James's glimmer of hope was suddenly extinguished. That was a safe adult that could have done something.

[Mike]

So at that point you say, okay, let me help you bring your beer. Him in. Because you don't Trust like a 10 year old to know where to go, right? I mean, maybe if they're really confident, like, I'm trying to think you. I can't like crap on everybody because at least that guy asked.

[Allison]

Yeah, I mean, I guess so. But two 10 year olds, you're gonna, you know, trust to walk to the police station? No.

[Mike]

Is that part of the culture in the uk? Like, if anybody, you know, listening, if you can say, like, is it just, you know, kind of mind your own business mostly the time I know that is in, you know, parts of Europe for sure.

[Allison]

So she walked away after instructing the boys to take him to the nearby Walton Lane police station. And as they walked away, she did call out to them, but they didn't look back. James chance at safety was quickly dwindling as the walk was changing from a more populated area to one that was more isolated. The woman remained concerned, though. But another woman who was standing nearby reassured her that they had just heard James laughing moments before. So she was like, oh, all seems well. So when one of the women happened to see on the news that night that James was missing, she contacted the police. She was expressing remorse for not doing more to help him at that point. So further down the street, another woman told the boys that she would take James to the police station herself.

[Mike]

Perfect.

[Allison]

Which is what I would do. But when she asked another woman nearby, could you please look after my daughter while I take, take this little boy to the police station, the woman refused, saying that her dog didn't like children. So once again, his chance of safety was tragically missed.

[Mike]

Why not take your daughter with I. I didn't understand. There had to be some kind of a situation.

[Allison]

So the trio walked into two different stores where they interacted with the shop keepers who although they later admitted that they had felt unsettled by the situation, they allowed them to leave the store and continue on. They didn't really ask many questions.

[Mike]

I'm sure if you interviewed any of these people now there I would obviously would say, I wish I would have done.

[Allison]

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[Mike]

A story of love.

[Allison]

Oh, sorry. I'm Oliver.

[Mike]

I'm crossing lies.

[Allison]

So do you like secrets?

[Mike]

No, I like reveals, seduction.

[Allison]

It's like they were obsessed with each other. And murder.

[Mike]

We got here. Body in the bathtub.

[Allison]

56 Days premieres February 18th on Prime Video. I'm gonna get you. Not if I get you first.

[Mike]

Now playing crime 101 hits theaters.

[Allison]

What is it that you do? I take high value items and make them disappear. So you're a thief. One crime connects them all. I'm getting close.

[Mike]

I know it.

[Allison]

But only one will walk away.

[Mike]

I underestimated you.

[Allison]

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[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

Crime 101.

[Mike]

Directed by Bart Layton.

[Allison]

Rated R. Under 17. Animated without parent.

[Mike]

Now playing only in theaters.

[Allison]

All of us strands are in real danger. And whatever it is, it's closing in. It started with just a few lost hairs here and there. But now more and more of us are disappearing every day. But listen, we think we have a plan. A way to stop the shedding. Pantene abundant and strong. Go now. It's not too late. Pantene abundant and Strong. It's a three step system that reduces hair loss by 85%. Only the strongest will survive the shedding. So when Robert and John came upon two older boys that they knew, they asked these older boys that they knew, they were like, who, who is this little boy? And John said that it was Robert's brother and they were taking him home. So once they arrived at the train tracks, the boys hesitated, possibly reconsidering what they were about to do as they briefly turned away from the embankment where they had let him. But sadly, evil prevailed and they turned back toward the secluded railway. Sometime between 5:45 and 6:30pm, the brutal torture and murder of Sweet James occurred. Robert and John brought blue paint. Excuse me. So they stole paint from the mall earlier in the day and they opened the paint and they splashed it into James's left eye. They kicked him, they pummeled him with bricks and stones, they forced batteries into his mouth. And when the boys struck James in the head with a 22 pound iron bar, they caused 10 skull fractures. And in total he sustained 42 injuries to his tiny, tiny body. And because he was so badly injured, and obviously authorities found his body severed in half by the train, they couldn't even really know which injury led to his ultimate death. So after James was deceased, Robert and John placed his body across the train tracks. And at only 10 years old, they had the sick forethought that James's death, if they staged it that way on the train tracks, could simply just look like an accident when his remains were ultimately found. Like that's sick and twisted. Yeah, this is a 10 year old, this is an elementary school child and.

[Mike]

There'S some demons in these boys.

[Allison]

So they abandoned the scene before the train plowed through, severing the toddler's body in two. And he was found naked from the waist down. So there were questions. Was there some sort of sexual element to this?

[Mike]

Yeah, they did a bunch of whatever they wanted to, like a sexual, like that wasn't their drive. I think they were just like, yeah, not just, but like experimenting and like, whatever. What could we get away with? Like just sick.

[Allison]

So since an eyewitness reported seeing James and the boys near the canal, authorities searched this as well, surrounding areas, but they were unable to locate him. So after the CCTV footage from the mall was found that depicted Robert and John leading James from the mall, Denise and Ralph actually felt a tremendous sense of relief. They were like, oh, thank goodness. It's only going to be a matter of time before these boys take him to safety. So seeing such a young boy holding James's hand while another was walking ahead, they never in their wildest nightmares fathom that their son's life would end, let alone in such a horrific way, at the hands of the two children that they were looking at on that footage. So two days after James walked through the exit of the mall, four children just so happened to be out playing along the train tracks when they came upon this horrific scene of James's body. And all of the weapons that John and Robert used to torture him were strewn about that area. They were covered in sweet James's blood. And the stolen can of blue paint was also found nearby. As police realized that James's abductors were young boys, they started visiting area schools to see were there a couple of boys that were missing from school on that Friday. So this caused various boys to be questioned as potential killers, while some parents even reported their own children as being potentially guilty.

[Mike]

They're like, well, my kid could do it. It's like, at least they're trying, right? To. Trying to find who it could be. Be like, if your kid's vagrant and, like, not, you know, always cutting classes and, like, stealing things, like, it could be them. Please bring them forward.

[Allison]

So one young boy was even arrested on Tuesday, February 16th. As people saw the police arrive to his home, they jumped to conclusions. Oh, this is the murderer. That. A whole riot ensued. It was mass chaos, because when people heard what happened to James, they were incest. Incensed. Incensed with anger, understandably so. So they caused this riot out in front of this boy's house, but he was eventually ruled out. But things were still so bad that the family was actually forced to move.

[Mike]

Wow, that's crazy. And, I mean, I get it. Like, it's almost like these kids ruined part of the community. We're a community together, and you just, like, murdered a little baby. Like, that's. That's not what we do here. You know, like, you want to. That's. I can totally understand coming up at the family. I'm mad at this family. Like, what kind of upbringing did you have? Like, you can't just blame the parents 100%, but there is a portion of it there. I can't wait to hear about them.

[Allison]

So when the anonymous phone call came through that was suggesting that Robert and John were responsible, the person not only told investigators that the boys had been absent from school on Friday, but they could also find blue paint on the sleeve of John's jacket, as well as blood on Robert's shoes.

[Mike]

And normally I would say like, thank God for idiot or thank God for idiot criminals. But like, these are 10 year old kids, obviously they're going to do things wrong. And oh man, this is such a terrible story.

[Allison]

So despite this information, the boys weren't initially considered by authorities because they were focused on two other boys that already had violent records. Because the footage from the mall was so incredibly grainy, police initially thought that maybe the boys were 13 or 14 rather than the tender age of 10. And this was partially related to the heinous nature of this crime.

[Mike]

Right.

[Allison]

They would never imagine that they were as young as 10 years old. So really they were thinking probably around 14.

[Mike]

Their testosterone's like not even activated yet. That's what makes us men stupid.

[Allison]

Right.

[Mike]

It's just, that's crazy.

[Allison]

So over the course of several days, when John and Robert were brought in for questioning, with their mother's presence as well as legal representation, they immediately began turning on one another. John eventually confessed that they had been responsible during a time when he was alone with his parents and police were simply just listening in. And he said, I did kill him. What about his mom? Will you tell her I'm sorry? So it's like, obviously they don't get it. Like kids, will you tell her I'm sorry? Like, you didn't trash her purse. No, you killed her child.

[Mike]

That's the whole part of this. Like, if these were adults, I'd be like instantly, like death penalty. Right? These are like stupid, horrible, horrible children. Horrible, horrible. The worst possible children you can think of. And they evil, evil children. Like they could, I don't know, but go ahead.

[Allison]

So during his questioning, John mentioned that it was their intention to find a child and to throw them into the path of a bus or a taxi on the road outside the shopping center. So immediately those two things were associated together. Kidnap a child, kill him. There was nothing innocent about them luring.

[Mike]

James away accidentally and then, yeah, it was like premeditated.

[Allison]

So they did plan initially to do it outside the shopping center. And they wanted to make it look like an accident, like, oh, he tripped, he fell in front of the taxi. So according to Detective Phil Roberts, when he spoke with John and Robert, he felt that he was staring evil in the face. And he went on to say they were a match made in hell, a freak of nature. They went on that day to kill. I truly believe that, or I should say they went out that day to kill. And I believe that too. And he then said, and if they hadn't been caught, I fear they would have struck again. And I don't doubt that they would have because they would have been like, oh, wow, we got away with it.

[Mike]

My thought is you do shoplifting not to get away with it and not to get the products. Like it's that rush, that rush of adrenaline, like, oh, I did, I did get away with something. Then you feel good. So they probably did that all the time and it wasn't enough for them. So they're like, let's kill a kid. Like, that's, that's the, that's a huge jump, obviously. Huge jump. You have to have some bad things wrong with you.

[Allison]

Absolutely. You have to have, have something loose in your brain, something evil in your soul, like shoplifting.

[Mike]

Yeah, you're hurting the business owner. But like, usually it's like candy or something, whatever, but this is big.

[Allison]

So on the other hand, Robert denied any responsibility and he changed his story on five separate occasions over the course of two days of questioning. And in the end, though, he incriminated himself when he was able to clearly say what James had been wearing on the day that he went missing and the day that he was murdered, investigators were stunned by just how cold, how unfazed he was throughout the entire questioning. And the media, learning all of this information, dubbed him the boy who did not cry. So in the end, Robert confessed that he and John had taken James from the shopping center by Lunchtime on Friday, February 19th. This is one week after James was kidnapped and murdered. He admitted that they had taken him to the train tracks, and there was a chilling moment when he imitated a wailing James who was begging for his mother. So nine months later, in November of 1993, the trial began. After both John and Robert had each turned 11 years old in August. Despite their confessions, they each pleaded not guilty. 300 people gathered outside the courthouse, some screaming, kill the bastards. A life for a life. Life. And people were so enraged to the point that once again, a riot broke out and the trial ended up being relocated to the Preston Crown Court. This was an hour's drive from boodle. So during this time, John and Robert were known only as child A and child B because they were minors. And it wasn't until the trial concluded when their actual names were released by the judge. So during the time frame of the trial, Denise and Ralph announced that they were expecting another child. But Denise refused to come to court, understandably unwilling to sit there in the same room as her son's brutal killers and listen to every detail of what happened to her precious two year old little boy.

[Mike]

Can't blame her at all.

[Allison]

And to this day there are details of her son's death that she still doesn't know. And that's called self preservation. She's protecting herself and, and I can.

[Mike]

Understand that, I mean it's only gonna make it even. I mean it can't be worse. It's like you, your two year old baby is gone, like there's nothing worse. And it's like I don'. Need more bricks piled on top of my sorrow.

[Allison]

So when Jon had hysterical outburst, Robert sat cold and remorseless and this just disgusted and horrified everybody, even more so than they already were. And because of this behavior, the assumption was made that Robert was the ringleader. Even though court appointed psychiatrists who determined that the boys were not sociopaths and knew right from wrong, young have been unable to understand their motive. No one has been unable to understand what prompted them to do this.

[Mike]

They couldn't say like they, they didn't say that one of them had to be a leader they didn't come up with at the same time, you know, I don't know.

[Allison]

But to this day their motive remains unclear. So author Blake Morrison who wrote as if A crime, a trial, a Question of Childhood. This is a book that details the trial also suggests that Robert, who had a temper and had been known to lose control and do odd, likely been the instigator. So that's possible. So on November 24, 1993, after a three week trial at Preston Crown Court, in six hours of jury deliberation, Robert Thompson and John Vles were found guilty of James's death, making them the youngest convicted of murder in Britain in 250 years.

[Mike]

What a sad title.

[Allison]

Terrible. So as their verdict was read, the boy boys sat in a. Excuse me, in an adult court doc that had to be modified in order for their little bodies to see over it. That's these courts are not made for 11 year old children because normally 11 year old children are not committing these types of crimes. So both boys were sentenced to serve at her Majesty's pleasure. And this was a term I had never heard of. This is a legal and formal term in Commonwealth countries meaning imprisonment for an indefinite period determined by the courts. So although this sentence has no maximum, it does have a minimum which is determined on a case by case basis. So in this case it was a mere 8 years minimum. Minimum meaning that the boys would be released if all was well when they were 18 years old. So at this point they would be assessed and if they were deemed a danger to society they would not be released. And if they were, you know, evaluated, and they're like, okay, they've been rehabilitated. We can let them go. So during their time in prison, they showed no violence tendency tendencies, and they really served their time quietly. Thus, they were released on June 22, 2001, and they were given new identities due to the media attention around the case. They were also granted legal anonymity for life, and they moved to different parts of the country in order to maintain their safety. An injunction prevents the press from publishing any details about them. So both Robert and John had rough early years, as one could expect. Robert was the fifth of seven children, and he was born on August 23, 1982, in Liverpool. As a young boy, his father abandoned the family, causing his depressed mother to turn to alcohol and attempt suicide. Not only had he been molested by his father, but he also witnessed his mother and siblings who were subjected to severe physical and sexual violence at the hands of their father. So after his father left, when his mom and Thompson turned to alcohol, the bullying and violence only continued after. Then his brothers started to turn on one another, and it was basically like a brawl in their house all the time. So a lot of violence, a lot of sexual violence happening. So at the time of James's murder, he was living in Walton with his mom and his two younger brothers after his four older brothers had all been taken into custody. And that's something I'll never understand. It's like, if you determine these four boys aren't safe to live in this house, why would you assume that the other three were okay to continue to do so?

[Mike]

Did you say James?

[Allison]

Oh, I'm sorry, no. Yeah. At the time of James's murder, Robert.

[Mike]

Robert's brothers. Yeah.

[Allison]

Yeah. So that's my question is why would they take four boys and leave three? Thinking that she was okay to deal with the three just doesn't. It doesn't make sense to me. So as officers arrived to arrest him, they realized that his house wasn't far from where James's body had actually been recovered. So John was also born in Liverpool only 10 days before Robert on August 13, 1982. Although his father was still in the picture, his parents divorced when he was 3 and shared custody of their three children. His mother, Susan, suffered from psychiatric issues. She often complained about feeling very overwhelmed with parenting. She was said to be a very harsh disciplinarian who hopped from one man to the next. There were no reports that suggested that he was subjected to bullying or violence during his childhood. In Fact, if anything, he was more of the bully. So when officers saw John come to the top of the staircase, when they first went to his house to see what was going on with his situation, they were utterly stunned by how young he appeared to. He didn't even really look like he was 10 years old. He looked more like he was maybe 8. So early on, they were convinced that they were questioning the wrong boys because they never fathom, like I had said, that children this young could be capable of such violent behavior. That's why it was kind of delayed, because they got a phone call saying these two boys were missing from school. You'll find blood on his shoes and blue paint on his coat. They were like, surely you have this wrong. This can't be right.

[Mike]

Well, yeah, because they've been doing this forever and there's profiles, you know, but sometimes there's outliers, right? Things like this happen.

[Allison]

So In February of 1993, one James was murdered. The boys had been good friends. They were known to break the rules. They would often skip school together. And although they had committed low level crimes like going into shops and getting whatever they can get their hands on, they had never been violent before. Nothing like that. This. So John served his time behind bars at the Red Bank Secure Children's home in Merseyside, telling his fellow inmates that he was there as a car thief. So meanwhile, Robert was at Barton Moss near Manchester, where he became interested in art and theater. And he came close to meeting Denise in 2004 after she managed to track him down. But paralyzed with ongoing anger and hatred, she was unable to confront him. So although Robert was the one that was said to be the leader of James murder, the whole instigator, all of that, unlike John, he has not reoffended since his release. Little is known about his whereabouts, but it's said that he's in a stable relationship with a man who is fully aware of his past. On the other hand, John was sent back to prison on multiple occasions, most notably for very disturbing child pornography.

[Mike]

All right. And John's life immediately. John is a waste on society. Like, get rid of him. Some find him, kill him.

[Allison]

If John, if you're listening, really disturbing.

[Mike]

If you're listening, just get rid of yourself, that'd be great.

[Allison]

I'm not gonna mention what kind of pornography, but it was, it was terrible. We're talking about like little 8 year old kids depicted having horrible things done to them.

[Mike]

Yeah, this kid's ruined.

[Allison]

He actually had something called a pedophile manual, which was basically a How to on how to abuse young girls in horrifying detail. So his first child pornography offense happened in July of 2010 when he was 27 years old. So he was not a kid. He was nearly 30 years old. But then he was released in 2013, three years later. And once again, he was arrested for the exact same thing at age 35 in 2017. And then in 2018, he was sentenced to 40 months after he admitted to possessing more than a thousand child abuse images as well as this pedophile manual. So his application for parole was rejected in 2020 following an assessment and later bid in December of 2023 failed after officers ruled that he continued to pose a danger to children and he was at risk for reoffending. This doesn't just go away. What do they think is going to happen next time he is released?

[Mike]

I hope he's never released. Like the guy just needs to be ended.

[Allison]

This guy should never, ever. Because right now he's got these horrific, disgusting images in this manual. But what is he planning on doing?

[Mike]

Okay, this is like being in a forest that's been dried and rotting and everything. And you're holding a match. Like, do you want to drop this match or do to. You want. Want to extinguish this match, Extinguish that match so that it can't light the rest of the forest on fire.

[Allison]

So as of right now, he's still in prison and he should never ever be released. Someone will get hurt, killed, don't know what, but he will destroy lives.

[Mike]

Like you're looking at this guy John, like, yeah, he's. He's going to do something bad. Like some. Not just bad, like horrible, horrible, life changing, traumatizing, ruin a life like many lives lives. That's like kind of how he's wired. And so would you like that to happen then? If not keep him in the jail.

[Allison]

An innocent child's life could be ruined and. Or ended will be.

[Mike]

It absolutely will be. I promise.

[Allison]

So Ralph Bulger, James's father, has been understandably very outspoken in regards to him saying that he should obviously be kept behind bars. He said, I believe the only way to prevent him from killing another baby like James. James is to keep him locked up for life.

[Mike]

100.

[Allison]

How can anyone say this monster is safe to live among us ever again? So in 2019, Ralph lost a legal challenge for John's new identity to be made public. And I love that we're protecting this monster. This disgusting human being is being protected.

[Mike]

I get the original try to do so. And like Let them try to make their lives right again. And he screwed up so much chance.

[Allison]

To see if he fixed himself, and he's going to go on and lead a productive life.

[Mike]

And maybe it's not his fault. Whatever, you know, I mean, he was born this way. Whatever you want to say, but, yeah, I mean, he's a useless part of society. So go ahead, just hunt him down.

[Allison]

So a petition was signed by over 200,000 people who wanted to know why in the first place back in 2001. Experts believe that John had been rehabilitated when he was released. Since he has clearly gone on to commit other offenses, like what kind of evaluation was done that made them think, okay, good to go.

[Mike]

Well, I mean, it's just a matter of answers. It's not like you can get into the brain and see, yes, green light, red light. Like, it's just maybe he's good at talking to people and just know. I feel totally rehabilitated. Do you have these thoughts anymore? Nope. Sure don't. That's kind of all you can do as a psychiatrist.

[Allison]

Yeah. And I imagine they were talking to the staff who see him on a daily basis. How is he acting? As. Are you seeing anything concerning?

[Mike]

Well, he doesn't have access to the things he wants access to. To within the.

[Allison]

Well, that's right. He's in a controlled situation. He doesn't have access to the Internet in this pedophilia manual. So a member of Parliament. This is Paula Barker. She believed that James's family should have been given more information as to why the boys were being released after eight years in prison when they were only 18 years old. It sounds like they were really kept in the dark, like, oh, they're just being released. It's like, well, I want to have a little bit more information what. What was being done to be sure that they're ready. So since their identities have been kept hidden, they know nothing about the lives of the two boys who forever changed their world and flipped it upside down. While Ralph and Denise will forever suffer the loss of their son. Robert and John have been protected after serving only eight years behind bars. You know, you think about it, James's life ended before he could even turn three. He has no chance to go on and do anything. Yet these boys do. Serge. Excuse me, Sir. George Howarth, another member of the Parliament, also called for a public inquiry and suggested that the government's response on how. Transparency. Did I say that right? Transparency. Thank you.

[Mike]

I know what you're trying to say.

[Allison]

Though, of the parole board's decisions could be improved. They have, they've been very vague. So a lot of people are just left into the dark as to what decisions and made and why. So one month after Robert and John were found guilty, Denise gave birth to a baby boy. This is Michael James Bulger, who gave the couple a reason to continue to go on. I mean, this couple has suffered so unimaginably. They delivered a stillborn baby and then James was the ray of sunshine in their world. This amazing happy boy who just made them crack up every day. And the way that he died was so sick and unimaginable that I don't know how they got out of bed in the morning. You know, it's just like, how do you recover something from something like this?

[Mike]

Never, never, ever do.

[Allison]

So their baby Michael was like another chance of hope and a reason to get out of bed.

[Mike]

And you don't want to put too much pressure on Michael. No, he's a baby and, you know, he was an adult, but just I'm glad they, you know, had had him.

[Allison]

But sadly, because their world was flipped upside down by what happened to James, they went on to divorce in 1994. And that's very common when you have such trauma.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

So Denise remarried Stuart Fergus in 1998 and they, they have two sons together, while Ralph also remarried and he has three daughters with his second wife. So in 2011, when James would have turned 21, Denise wanted something positive to come out of her son's death. So she launched the James Bulger Memorial Trust. And this is a UK charity with the mission of providing support and resources to children and families that are facing trauma, disadvantage, crime, or law loss. It also rewards those who have made positive contributions to the welfare of others and to society in general. So just a very positive foundation. The level of brutality involved in two year old James Bulger's sadistic murder is far beyond what anyone could have imagined anyone being capable of, let alone two elementary school children. It's no surprise that the word evil has been synonymous with John Venable rebels in Robert Thompson's name since February of 1993. Anyone familiar with this case is left to wonder what drove these two boys to such depravity. Were they born evil? Had their upbringing been responsible? Or were there other unknown factors at play? And it's likely that there's a mixture of factors that were responsible, ones that will likely never fully understand. And that is a sad and tragic murder of two year old little boy James Bulger.

[Mike]

That is one of the worst stories we've ever told. I had to just kind of shut down my brain in the middle. I totally get if people like couldn't listen to that whole thing and definitely don't go back if you didn't listen. It's horrible, horrible, horrible. I mean, James definitely deserves to be remembered. Poor baby.

[Allison]

Yeah.

[Mike]

He didn't ask to be taken. And poor parents. But man, this John Venables just sounds like the devil. He is absolutely useless. Just a devil. Horrible demon. Like, get rid of him, keep him off of the streets.

[Allison]

Agreed.

[Mike]

And then, then I mean, you wonder if John was the one that had this idea. And then Robert was easy to mold because he'd been through so much abuse, you know, so maybe John's like, hey, we should do this this weekend. That's kind of how I pictured it. It's now Robert's the easy one to kind of point and be like, oh, he had this terrible upbringing. It was his idea. That's really easy. And maybe it was.

[Allison]

And he was the one that really showed no remorse whatsoever during the interrogations, during the trial. Whereas Jon was the one that was tearful and looked like he was sorry for what he you done. So it's very surprising. Everyone would have thought that it would have been Robert that would have been the problem on release. But he has since lived a very.

[Mike]

Quiet life because as humans we expect certain things. We have habits. And if you don't see what you're expecting, then all of a sudden it's like, not that person now. Maybe he's just very, you know, doesn't have a lot of emotions. You know, maybe that's why part of why he was maybe multiple. I mean, none of it really matters. I hope he never touches a child or gets close to a child again, either one of them. But what a horrible story. A ten year old like. And then you said when he, John was at the top of the stairs.

[Allison]

They were like never. They were like, no way could this boy have done what we just witnessed happen to little James. Yeah, I mean like these two things don't go together is what the officer saw. They, they were like, we're surely at the wrong house.

[Mike]

Well, another thing, you know, you know, there's this like trend going on on Instagram about 10 years ago, you know, 2000.

[Allison]

Yeah. I was like, what's up with this trend? We're all thrown back to 2016. I'm like, how come in 2025 we didn't throw back to 2015?

[Mike]

Yeah, so there's that, that trend. And I saw some pictures Cuz now Snapchat's showing us things from 10 years ago to try to put somewhere. But I, I saw our kid and he was probably six years. Six or seven years old.

[Allison]

Yeah, he would have been seven.

[Mike]

The video we saw this morning, could you imagine that kid like. Cuz he looked like the 10 year old, right. Doing anything to a 10 year old.

[Allison]

Like he was like, you know, jumping around in the background being silly in the video while we were trying to interview our little daughter about her dress. Yeah.

[Mike]

And our kid like, you know, he's always looked older so I imagine that's probably what John looked like.

[Allison]

Yeah. And if you see a picture of them, they had such baby faces, they would have easily passed for an eight year old.

[Mike]

And like I said, testosterone is what makes us men crazy. It makes us aggressive. There's good things and bad things, but that's usually the thing that causes a lot of these terrible crimes, in my opinion. I'm no expert, but these kids didn't even have that button activated in them yet. And that's, that's so sad.

[Allison]

And I watched an interview with Denise and she was telling a story about how one day she was up in the bathroom. Bathroom doing something, maybe cleaning up the countertop. And she felt a super strong, unmistakable tug on her nightgown. She assumed it was her little boy Michael. And she turned around and Michael wasn't there. And she found him on the lower level of the house. And she's like, were you upstairs? Did you pull on mommy's nightgown? And he was like no. And she's like, it was unmistakable. It wasn't like a faint something. She felt a strong tug on her nightgown and she believes that that was her little baby.

[Mike]

Yeah, maybe it was. It's so incredibly sad. I mean kids are just the best ever. Man, that's gets. They're so innocent and they're so awesome and so full of wonder and whimsy and just.

[Allison]

Oh yeah, totally.

[Mike]

Everything that's awesome in, in just life is through kids.

[Allison]

And I know these childhood cases are so hard to talk about, but I just do believe that their names need to remember what happened to them. You know, their stories do need to.

[Mike]

Be remembered and if there's anything like that'll stick in our heads when we're walking around with our 2 year olds. Maybe just hold them a little tighter, you know, it's just like it was not their fault whatsoever. Like you're supposed to give them some, some leeway so they can figure things out. I, I Will say one thing I, I thought of during this whole thing. I sell cameras as a profession to all these, you know, large corporations and things.

[Allison]

Security cameras.

[Mike]

Yeah, security cameras. So dress your kids in bright colors. It's so much easier to find your kids in bright colors with the cameras. They're smart enough to be able to find like a red hoodie or a blue hoodie. Like black is really horrible and really easy to. They're really hard to find. So anytime you're taking your kids out or red shirt, blue shirt, yellow shirt, and I'm not saying this would have prevented it, but I'm saying anybody I see your face like looking at me.

[Allison]

I'm not trying to say it's not that. It's more like every time you leave the house, do you anticipate your child's gonna get lost or kidnapped?

[Mike]

No, just buy them things that are bright colors.

[Allison]

Yeah, I guess it's fun to wear anyway.

[Mike]

Yeah, kids look awesome in bright colors. Like, and then once they turn, teenagers are like, oh no, they all want. You know, our son wears brown and black every day now because he's 17. But like just wear those. It does help and it's, it's cheerful. I don't know, like it's a little thing that I thought of. It's easier for our camera. Just pick those up.

[Allison]

And this case is also a reminder is if you see something concerning, you have to as a human being, especially when it comes to children, step in as the adults. You need to do something about what you're seeing. Don't just close your curtains or hear a 10 year old while they're walking with a 2 year old that has blood on his forehead. Say, oh yeah, carry on. Go take him to the police station. His James's little life could have been saved on so many occasions because like I said, more than 38 people saw the trio together.

[Mike]

Minimum. Call 911 and have a cop come and take.

[Allison]

Yeah, no guys, we're going to stay here until we get a policeman to come around. And I know this was in a day before cell phones, but run into the shop nearby and say, hey, we're calling the police. We're going to see where his parents are.

[Mike]

Yeah, absolutely. And I know they all wish they could have done that. So for, for sweet little James's life, just make that call.

[Allison]

Yeah. So anyway, thank you guys so much for being here with us. We appreciate each and every one of you so much more than you'll ever know. Know if you're running out of regular episodes to listen to or if you want to support us every single Wednesday, we do have a bonus episode over on Apple subscriptions as well as Patreon.

[Mike]

And we always have special messages for our subscribers.

[Allison]

And Patreon, we always say, you live in our house.

[Mike]

Oh, don't tell them. Don't tell them. It's a secret.

[Allison]

I gave away this.

[Mike]

Don't tell you it's a secret. You gotta be a subscriber. Go listen. Okay, that's all.

[Allison]

And we hope you guys are having a wonderful weekend. Be safe, take care of each other, and until next time.

[Mike]

Bye.

[Allison]

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