The murder of Mandy Matula | Ep 238

Summary

Crime and Coffee Couple - Ep 238: The Murder of Mandy Matula

Release Date: March 29, 2026
Hosts: Allison and Mike

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the tragic 2013 murder of 24-year-old Mandy Matula in Eden Prairie, Minnesota. Allison recounts Mandy's life, the events surrounding her disappearance, and the subsequent investigation—while Mike offers unscripted reactions and questions throughout. The hosts also explore the broader context of intimate partner violence, community response, and the emotional aftermath for loved ones.

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Key Discussion Points & Timeline

Mandy Matula: Early Life & Background

(07:14-10:41)

• Mandy was born January 14, 1989, to Wayne and Lisa Matula and had a younger brother, Stephen.
• She was an accomplished softball player (pitcher and team captain at Eden Prairie High and UMD), loved coaching young athletes, and was active in the community as a Parks Department worker, bowling alley employee, and Herbalife coach.
• Mandy was known for her kindness, competitiveness, and fearlessness.
  • Quote (Allison, 09:35): "She realized at a young age that pitcher was truly where she was meant to be. That was like her home."

The Night Mandy Disappeared

(10:41-13:25)

• On May 1, 2013, Mandy left home at night to talk with her ex-boyfriend David Roe, sitting in his car on the family driveway.
• She left her phone and purse behind, indicating she intended a brief conversation.
• Mandy's father Wayne checked on them from the house, noting they sat outside at least 20-25 minutes before he retired for the night.
• When Wayne awoke in the early hours, Mandy was gone.
  • Quote (Allison, 11:51): “Her cell phone and purse were sitting there on her bed...it just didn’t look like she was planning on being gone long.”

The Relationship with David Roe

(13:25-14:43)

• Mandy and David dated for eight months, breaking up in September 2012. David remained fixated on Mandy, reportedly becoming verbally abusive after their breakup and following her persistently.

• Despite warnings from friends and family, Mandy chose to remain kind and empathetic towards him.

• Quote (Allison, 14:26): “He was trying everything in his power to win her back...she had zero intentions of becoming romantically involved with him again, but she was just a very kind, empathetic person.”

Discovery of Disappearance & Initial Investigation

(14:43-24:45)

• The following morning, Mandy’s no-show at work triggered concern; her parents swiftly involved police.
• David's story: They argued in his car, drove to Miller Park, she stormed out, and he claimed to have last seen her walking home. This conflicted with witness timelines.
• During a recorded phone call with police, David was emotional, claimed to search for her, and agreed to a station interview.
• Notable audio (21:25-22:30): Detective questions David about his search efforts for Mandy; David becomes tearful.

Red Flags & Mike's Commentary

• Mike points out David’s inconsistent details and suspicious tone during the call.
  • Quote (Mike, 22:30): “You were always listening for, like, little things…it was kind of like he was caught off guard about where he was looking.”

David Roe’s Suicide and Evidence

(24:45-27:07)

• Instead of a scheduled interview, David died by suicide (gunshot) in his car outside the police station, leaving behind a note and a video.

• Blood evidence and a .40 caliber bullet linked both the car and the scene near Mandy’s home to David.

  • Quote (Mike, 25:07): “With him died any information as to what happened to Mandy and where she could possibly be.”

• Neighbors later reported hearing possible gunfire and screams near a local church that night, but no one called police.

David’s Pre-Meditation and the Search for Mandy

(27:56-34:25)

• David had purchased a handgun and ammunition the week prior, raising suspicions about premeditation.
• Friends noted he’d previously made suicidal statements tied to his relationship with Mandy.
• Massive search efforts ensued, led by Mandy’s brother Stephen and an ever-growing community response; their efforts also expanded to help other local missing women.
• Quote (Allison, 30:46): "That's always such a nice part of these devastating cases is how people come together to help one another."

The Discovery of Mandy’s Body

(34:25-36:13)

• 177 days after her disappearance, a Boy Scout leader found Mandy’s remains wrapped in a blanket with a plastic bag over her head in a shallow grave over an hour from Eden Prairie.
• Identification was confirmed by dental records and personal items.
• Autopsy: died by single gunshot wound to the head.

David Roe’s Timeline and Digital Footprint

(34:59-36:13)

• Cell phone and bank records revealed David lied about his whereabouts. He traveled from Eden Prairie to the dump site and returned, turning his phone off for much of this period.
• The police concluded that David killed Mandy soon after picking her up and disposed of her body far from the crime scene.

Alcohol & David Roe’s Profile

(37:44-39:23)

• David was intoxicated during critical events; he’d attended AA meetings and had “problems with alcohol” per his family.
• Scratches on his hands showed Mandy had fought for her life.

Patterns of Domestic Violence

(39:23-41:26)

• After Mandy’s death, letters were found where David pleaded for another chance, reflecting obsession and control.
• The hosts reflect on warning signs of abuse and the importance of removing oneself from toxic relationships.
• Quote (Allison, 39:02): "At 24 years old, he's going to AA meetings and people are saying, oh, he gets mean and nasty... that's a problem."

Other Related Minnesota Tragedies

(41:26-44:48)

• Mandy’s family, while searching, learned of two other missing women: Kira Steger and Danielle Jelinek.

  • Both were later found dead, victims of domestic violence or exposure after drug use.
  • Their cases highlight the dangers many women face and the slow, agonizing process for families.

• The Matulas’ grief inspired the creation of Minnesota United, a support network for families of the missing.

Reflections on Grief, Loss, and "Closure"

(45:05-47:11)

• The hosts and victim families discuss the impossible idea of closure.
  • Quote (Mike, 46:18): “I would never have my heart closed... my heart is basically wide open and bleeding for the rest of my life now.”
• Mandy’s legacy includes celebrations and memorials: a retired softball number, an annual tournament, and a park bench.

Domestic Violence Resources

(47:41-48:22)

• Allison shares hotline information:

  • National Domestic Abuse Hotline: [phone] or text BEGIN to 88788
  • Crisis hotline: Dial or text 988

• Quote (Allison, 48:22): “You just can't take someone out of this world because they don't want to be your girlfriend.”

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Notable Quotes & Powerful Moments

• On toxic persistence:
  “He was basically just following her around like this lost puppy wherever she went.” – Allison (13:29)

• On domestic violence:
  “That is not love. That is sick.” – Allison (49:44)

• On community support:
  “That’s always such a nice part of these devastating cases is how people come together to help one another.” – Allison (30:46)

• On grief and closure:
  “Closure is like, Done. You know it's done. You're never done. Not until you're. You're done with the world.” – Mike & Allison (46:37)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Mandy's early life and softball: 07:14–10:41
• Timeline of Mandy’s disappearance: 10:41–14:43
• Investigation and David Roe’s conflicting statements: 14:43–22:49
• Detective call (David emotional): 21:25–22:30
• David’s suicide and forensic breakthrough: 24:45–27:07
• Community search efforts: 29:14–34:25
• Discovery of remains and autopsy: 34:25–36:13
• David’s digital movements and further evidence: 34:59–36:13
• Broader domestic violence context and support group formation: 39:23–41:26, 30:39
• Discussion about related Minnesota cases: 41:26–44:48
• Final reflections, grief, and Mandy’s memorial: 45:05–48:22

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Tone & Dynamic

Allison’s delivery is empathetic and thorough, balanced by Mike’s spontaneous reactions, questions, and occasional dark humor (“What a cowardly scumbag,” 25:00). Throughout, the couple’s banter and transparent discussion around marriage, loss, and communication add a personal, conversational touch, helping listeners connect more deeply with difficult subject matter.

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Resources Mentioned

• Domestic Violence Hotlines:
  • National Domestic Abuse Hotline [phone], text BEGIN to 88788)
  • Crisis Line (988)

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Final Thoughts

The murder of Mandy Matula is a heartbreaking reminder of the dangers of intimate partner violence and the far-reaching impact on families and communities. The episode balances detailed case breakdown, personal stories, and advocacy for awareness and support—delivering information with warmth and respect for victims. The hosts urge listeners to care for one another and seek help when needed, reinforcing that Mandy’s life—and the lives of others lost—are remembered and honored.

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Transcript

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Allison]

Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode with the crime and coffee couple. My name's Allison.

[Mike]

My name is Mike. Hi, Mike what has two thumbs and is excited to be here today?

[Allison]

This guy.

[Mike]

This guy. This guy right here. That's me, everybody.

[Allison]

Hi.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we got. Well, welcome. First and foremost, welcome any and all new listeners. And this is a podcast weekly podcast every single Sunday, where Allison tells me a new story that she's meticulously researched. I'm not even reading that. That's just you vocabulary. Well, I'm more about myself. This is kind of a big deal. I meticulously. But you did. You do a great job researching all these. And they're a little lesser known because she's a true crime fanatic and tries to find ones that she's never heard of so she can learn about them. And she's genuinely interested and tell these unfortunate stories.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Yes.

[Mike]

And I'm just some schlub. Her husband that have been married to you for over 20 years now.

[Allison]

Yeah, it's. I'm coming up on 24.

[Mike]

Yeah. So we do this every week, and if you want to subscribe to us, you can listen to even more podcasts every single Wednesday. Some dingbat said, oh, yeah, you guys have half your episodes behind a paywall. And I was like, yeah, every single Sunday is free, and every single Wednesday is behind a paywall.

[Allison]

I guess that's true, though. It is half behind a paywall, right?

[Mike]

Yeah, but he's like, you know, he's kind of complaining about it. I'm like, well, I mean, there's. There's. There's plenty of good content out there.

[Allison]

So pretty typical for most podcasts. You know, they're bi weekly, weekly with a bonus episode.

[Mike]

But more importantly, there's way more people that are very positive and very fantastic.

[Allison]

So thank you for doing that. Thank you for those kind comments. We're also over on YouTube. Thank you. That just escaped my brain. So if you'd like to see what our ugly mugs look like, hop on over.

[Mike]

Yeah, I'm wearing a hat today.

[Allison]

You.

[Mike]

You Are I am wearing a hat today. I did a good job getting dressed.

[Allison]

Good job.

[Mike]

What's going on with us today? Can I spring into what I just took care of in the garage?

[Allison]

Oh yeah. I didn't even see it. So only you can say about it.

[Mike]

Only you can make all this world seem bright. Only you can make all the darkness br.

[Allison]

Alrighty. So what were you gonna say?

[Mike]

Wait, I just gotta keep my eyes. I'll bring it out later for. Maybe we'll put on Patreon or something. Somebody. We had some, some ants on Allison's car. I walked out there to get some more milk because I was using. I was getting. Eating some cereal from. What's it called?

[Allison]

Your favorite God forsaken Catalina Crunch, which is like a gut buster explosion.

[Mike]

If you have ibs, stay away from Catalina Crunch.

[Allison]

Man, it's chocked full of chicory root.

[Mike]

That chicory root will tear Allison's insides up. Not to get tmi, but too late now.

[Allison]

Oh, it's the devil.

[Mike]

So we had a couple ants on there, put some taro ant bait on there. And if you guys ever have ants anywhere, like this isn't an ad. We just use tarot ant bait like crazy. T E R R O And I guess it's just a mix of like sugar water and borax, but man, they love that stuff and they take all of it back to the queen. I just like picture that queen ant dying and being like yeah, exactly. That old. So she, they're. They're dying right now actively. But another very. I know that's not, you know, super exciting, but another not very exciting thing. I got a waste paper basket in this office and I haven't had one for like years it seems.

[Allison]

Waste paper basket.

[Mike]

I use it for like my Kleenex and stuff like that.

[Allison]

Some say garbage can.

[Mike]

Garbage can. That's what, that's what it is.

[Allison]

A waste paper basket.

[Mike]

Another thing I call cabinets, cupboards. That's kind of a high end thing.

[Allison]

Well, the first one came in and it was damaged from Walmart. It was all jagged Mike's like, well, we're going to put a bag on it. I'm like, yeah, but I'd hate for someone to slash their wrist or hand in taking off or on the bag. Yeah, let's just go ahead and get a new one.

[Mike]

And so Walmart then Usually if you have like a. We get Walmart food delivery and it's usually if you have like a bad orange or some kind of produce that's just kind of past its prime. And you'll say, hey, I need a refund. They just give you a refund because it's easier than having to go to the store. And that's really cool. Now with this. I was expecting the same thing. It was cracked and damaged. And I was like, oh, man. They're like, okay, how do you want to get it back to us? I'm like, oh, man. It's like a $5 just garbage bag, garbage bin. So I was like, I'm like, you know what? It's their fault. They delivered it, like, cracked. So I'm like, I'm going to hit FedEx and you're going to pick it up at my house. And I clicked submit, and they're like, never mind. You can just keep it. I'm like, oh, you're trying to fool me. Nice try.

[Allison]

Yeah. I was like, I can't believe they're going to schedule a pickup for a $5 garbage can.

[Mike]

I couldn't believe either. They didn'.

[Allison]

Trying to fool me, those jokers.

[Mike]

Yeah. So what's going on with you? That was all about me.

[Allison]

We've been watching some movies since Mike's parents are in town visiting, and the old folks. Yeah, we saw a good one the other day on hbo. Max.

[Mike]

Yeah. What's it called?

[Allison]

Dead of Winter with Emma Thompson. It was released in 2025.

[Mike]

She has, like, the cutest, like, Minnesota accent. Even though she's English, right? British.

[Allison]

Yeah, she's English, but I just love her. She's the best.

[Mike]

She's fantastic. I don't know what age she is, but I'm just a really great actress.

[Allison]

Older, 80s is like the sweetest little thing in this mov. And it was good. I was entertained. And then we watched a really weird one last night with your mom.

[Mike]

That's because when I was watching Dead of Winter with you guys and you went to sleep like you do normally.

[Allison]

I think we all go to sleep at some point.

[Mike]

Yeah, true, true. But, like, early. Earlier than me. So you go to sleep and then hbo, Max just played the next thing that it thought I might enjoy and go ahead.

[Allison]

What was it called? If I had Legs, I'd kick you.

[Mike]

Yeah. Which kind of has nothing to do with the movie.

[Allison]

Not at all. And it's Rose Burn.

[Mike]

Rose Byrne.

[Allison]

Oh, man. Her acting was superior.

[Mike]

And this is definitely a crazy movie. Like, don't watch it if you don't want to feel anxiety. It's. Oh. I didn't like it myself, but I told them about it because it was so crazy and they were like, well,

[Allison]

let's give it a shot. Your mom hated it. It definitely got you thinking. But it was very manic, very stressful. Right now my ring is broken, the fitness ring or whatever. So I would imagine if I could check my stress levels during that movie, they would be high.

[Mike]

Yeah, it's very manic. I mean, it's, it's. That's a great way to put it. And Rose Byrne, she's one of my favorite actresses just based off looks alone. Sorry to be so shallow, but she's beautiful woman.

[Allison]

I just wanted her to go to sleep in the movie. She just needed sleep so desperately.

[Mike]

She needed somebody to watch her kid. Just like eight hours of, I think solid sleep would have solved everything.

[Allison]

It would have really helped. And then put the wine down and get some sleep. Yeah, that was a lot of the problems of this movie.

[Mike]

A lot of us have the sort of problems like that, you know, for sure. But.

[Allison]

So are you ready to dive into this case? Is there anything else you'd like to share with our lovely listeners?

[Mike]

Anything tiny like a new garbage bag or anything like that that I got? No, I think, I mean, yeah, I'm pretty ready to go.

[Allison]

I'm trying to shake out of my sleep because I woke up at 3:30 and I'm like, oh, it's too early. It's a Saturday morning. So I took like a sleep gummy with like the melatonin and stuff and it just didn't kick in until later. So now when I'm waking up, I'm like, oh shoot.

[Mike]

Oh, there's just melatonin in there.

[Allison]

Yeah, I'm like, I got to climb out of this sleep hole.

[Mike]

Yeah, it's just melatonin.

[Allison]

I'm just shaking out of the sleep. So I'm drinking my coffee. So I think I'm feeling good though. So I'm ready to dive into this cup of coffee.

[Mike]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Allison]

All right, so this is a listener suggestion from Jessica. Thank you so much. And this is the murder of Mandy Matula. So on the Evening of Wednesday, May 1, 2013, 24 year old Mandy Matula left her home in Eden Prairie, Minnesota. She was basically just going out on the driveway to talk to her ex boyfriend, David Rowe. They were just going to sit in his car. And although it was obvious she hadn't planned on being gone long because she had left her cell phone and purse behind, this was sadly the last time her parents ever saw her alive. So Mandy Marie Matula was born on January 14, 1989 to parents Wayne and lisa matula. She also had a younger brother named stephen. So after graduating from eden prairie high school in 2007, she went on to receive a bachelor of art degree at the university of minnesota duluth. This is UMD in 2011. So she began playing softball early, starting in third grade. And at that point in time, you know how it is with the little ones. You're trying to test out the positions, see where everyone fits because they're so young. So she realized at a young age that pitcher was truly where she was meant to be. That was like her home. So she eventually became a star player and the captain of her high school team. She wore my favorite number, lucky number 14, throughout her career, and she helped her team finish in third place in the 2007 Minnesota State High school softball tournament. And after she finished high school and graduated, another 12 years would pass. Be. Or excuse me, pass. Before they then again qualified for state. So mandy was also a member of her Division 2 softball team as a Bulldog at UMD, and she played both outfielder as well as pitcher from 2008 to 2011. But unfortunately, when she was a junior in high school, she tore her acl, so she had to have surgery. So much of her junior year, she actually didn't get to play. But according to her mom, lisa, Mandy was just this mischievous girl who was both friendly and fearless. She was referencing this softball tournament that they were at, and there was a boys team there, too, and she was a star pitcher. She was amazing. So this boy is basically challenging her, like, oh, you can't strike me out. And she's like, over my dead body. So despite the fact that they are in a parking lot with lines of cars, they're gonna try to see if he can hit her pitch.

[Mike]

Nice. Smart.

[Allison]

Thankfully, one of the coaches heard some goings, and he's like, what were you thinking? And she's like, he wasn't going to be able to hit me anyway.

[Mike]

To act. Just competitiveness.

[Allison]

Yeah, absolutely. So in 2013, at 24 years old, this is the time that the story takes place. Mandy was living with her family in eden prairie. This is a city that's 18 miles southwest of minneapolis. It has a population of about 55,000 at that point in time. So not only was she a seasonal employee for the city of eden prairie parks department, she was also working at brunswick bowling, as well as as a herbalife nutrition coach. She really enjoyed helping others achieve their goals. So working for the parks department, though, this was truly where she loved to be, because it didn't just allow her to be active outside, moving about. But it also kept her connected to softball because she was coaching younger players. She was mentoring girls that were the age when she started and you know, she hoped that she could help them follow in her footsteps if that's what

[Mike]

they wanted and would I want to know if I was that age at that time. Now she knows a lot more.

[Allison]

So right around Labor Day of 2012, Mandy ended her eight month long relationship with David Rowe. This is someone that she knew for a long time. They actually went to high school together. So after graduation he attended the University of St. Thomas from 2007 to 2009 and he played football on this team. And then after their breakup, they did still remain friends. And in May of 2013, he was going to St. Cloud State University. He wanted to become a police officer. He was also working part time at the Eden Prairie Liquor Store. He had just applied to be a police officer in North Dakota. So at about 11pm that Wednesday night, May 1, 2013, David showed up at the Matula home and he was asking to speak with Mandy. So his visit actually came after they had been on the phone together and they had gotten into an argument. So it sounds like he wanted to come and talk to her in person. So Wayne recalls seeing his daughter walk outside, climb into David's 2013 black Ford Escape SUV and he was just periodically peeking through the window, checking to see if they were still out there. But it was getting late. He had to get up early for work the next morning. So at the point that he went to bed, he said that they had been parked on the driveway between 20 and 25 minutes. It could have been longer because he went to bed. He doesn't know. So when he woke up at about 2am it's now in the early morning hours of Thursday morning, May 2nd. He once again looked out the window to see maybe they were still talking. But this time David's car was gone. So he walked over to Mandy's bedroom. She wasn't there, but he did notice that her cell phone and her purse were sitting there on her bed. So he went back to bed. He just figured maybe she went out and took a drive with him. Whatever. He got up for work at his usual time of 5:30 in the morning. He walked back into Mandy's room to see if maybe in between then and 2am she came home, but she wasn't there. So he talked to his wife. They're, you know, Mandy's mom, Lisa, and said, you know, have you heard from her? He explained the Situation, what was going on. And, you know, based on the fact that her cell phone and purse was sitting in a room, it just didn't look like she was planning on being gone long when she walked outside. But of course, plans can change. And maybe she was like, whatever, I'll get my purse and cell phone later. But she was also working that morning. So although at the time she walked out of the house, you know, that that night, they never gave it a second, you know, thoughts. Not only was Mandy a an adult, but she was also very self assured. She was a strong willed young woman. They knew that she could hold her own.

[Mike]

Well, she's 24 and single, and who knows? Yeah, you could be up to anything, right?

[Allison]

And they just thought, you know, she's. She can handle David. There's no problem. So despite the fact that Mandy had broken up with David about eight months earlier, after her daughter hadn't come home, Lisa eventually learned that he was continuing to basically stalk her daughter. He was basically just following her around like this lost puppy wherever she went. And he hadn't been physically abusive during the relationship, but after the fact. Fact, excuse me. Lisa learned that Mandy had confided in some people that he had been verbally abusive to her during the relationship. They didn't know that at the time. So according to Wayne, David had loved Mandy and he was trying everything in his power to win her back. Although she really had zero intentions of becoming romantically involved with him again, she was just a very kind, empathetic person. She recognized that he was hurting. She was just continuing to be friends and spend time with him.

[Mike]

Well, he's like the one that needs to break it off. Like, you can't be the sick little puppy because it's not attractive to anybody ever.

[Allison]

Not at all. And sometimes you gotta rip that band aid off, because it can be painful to just spend time with someone as friends when one party clearly wants more.

[Mike]

Yeah. And that's keeping the wound open totally. For it to start healing, you got to get off.

[Allison]

You have to get out of there. But it's easier said than done when you know, the heart wants what the heart wants. So after Wayne called his daughter's office at the Parks Department, he learned that she had not come in that morning, and that's just not who she was. So, of course, Lisa picks up the phone and she contacts David, knowing that he was the last person to know where Mandy was. So he explained that they had pulled out of their driveway, driven over to nearby Miller park, and they were sitting there talking in the car. They got into an argument, and david explained that mandy had gotten super angry and she stormed out of his car. He tried to persuade her to get back inside, but she refused. She was telling him, forget you, I'm gonna walk home.

[Mike]

Yeah, we hear this side of the story. Usually it's dropping them off somewhere. So in this case, dropping her off at miller park and seeing what happens.

[Allison]

So wayne and lisa were very skeptical of this story. Their daughter was level headed. Yeah. She was firm in what she wanted. Sometimes she might have a temper. I would be somebody to potentially storm out of a car and be like, I'm walking home.

[Mike]

Yeah, he would. You probably have.

[Allison]

I'm sure I have. So they were also thinking it was very late at night, it was also very cold outside, and she had to work the next morning. So as lisa ended her conversation with david, Wayne headed over to the police station to report their daughter missing. This happened at 8:30 in the morning. So since david was the last known person to have seen mandy, A detective from the eden prairie police department called him in order to get some information. So during this recorded conversation, which I listened to the entirety of, and we'll play a clip from, David indicated exactly. You know, he ends up saying exactly what he told lisa. But he also went on to say that he and mandy had been seeing each other off and on since december, and. And things just hadn't been the best in their relationship. He said that they talked every day, despite breaking up, and that they had somewhat of a business together. And when he was talking about this, he was referencing herbalife, and he said it was doing well. He confirmed that he had come by mandy's house Sometime the night before between 10:30 and 11:00pm and he said that they had gone and sat on the driveway for a bit. But then when he clarified, he said that they drove off to miller park after about three minutes after she got into the car. But that's not what wayne had said. Because a father knows when they're peeking through a window Specifically to check on their daughter. He said it was at least about 20 to 25 minutes. So right away, there's just inconsistencies in the. In the story. But you might say, oh, well, maybe he just wasn't paying attention to the time.

[Mike]

Yeah, it's very important for the timeline. So it's 20 minutes, and the timeline's big.

[Allison]

So like he had said to lisa, he drove over to miller park with mandy. They parked in the first parking lot. That was to the left side on the baseball side. Is how he clarified it, they wanted to put a clear picture together of what happened that night. So while they were there, they stayed in the car talking. They never got out. He indicated that he was home by a literal little after 2am this would have meant that mandy had gotten out of the car somewhere around 1:30 in the morning. So while they were there talking in the car, they were trying to figure out the relationship. He felt that their business involvement with herbalife Was getting in the way of their happiness as a couple. So they discussed how they could make things better. Their conversation, he said, had ups and downs. Times they were calm, and times they were each upset with one another. He clarified that nothing had gotten out of control. And he went on to specify that there had been no physical violence. But he admitted that when mandy had climbed out of the car, she was heated. So the detective was asking what had been the trigger to make mandy so heated that she stormed out of the car in the middle of the night. That's important when it's very cold outside. So david indicated that. She said, you're annoying. You just keep pushing. And he went on to say that over the last week, they hadn't been getting along. And during many of their conversations, Mandy would say things to him like she wanted him to leave her alone. But he said that she was very confusing to him because there were times she wanted to talk and other times that she didn't. It sounds like it was very hot and cold. And he's telling the detective, I just didn't know what she wanted.

[Mike]

Maybe kind of on her terms. And he wanted her all the time, no matter what, Right? Sometimes, yeah.

[Allison]

It sounds like she's holding all the power, obviously, in this relationship, because he wants her and she doesn't want him.

[Mike]

Right.

[Allison]

So when their conversation began to take a negative turn, David said that he finally threw his hands up in the air and said, okay, fine, leave. So when mandy got out of the car and began walking away, he really didn't think she was serious. He assumed she would eventually get back in the car and he would drive her home. So based on where he's saying they were parked, had mandy actually gotten out of the car and started walking home? Logically, she would have walked along eden prairie road. So he said he began driving alongside her. He had his window down. He's trying to talk to her, reason with her, ask her to please get back in the car so that he can drive her home. So david claimed that mandy wanted nothing to do with him. She refused to get back inside. And he went on to tell the detective that when he spoke with Lisa that morning, he could hear Wayne in the background. And he told the detective that Wayne sounded mad as hell for allowing her to walk home alone so late at night.

[Mike]

So this is the dad, right? Wayne.

[Allison]

Wayne was in the background while his wife was talking to David on the phone. And when Wayne got wind that David allowed his daughter to walk home in the middle of the night, he was like, why the hell would he have let her do that?

[Mike]

Sure.

[Allison]

So David sounds like he's stressing because the parents are pissed at him. But he defended himself. He said that when Mandy gets mad, she wants nothing to do with anyone and he wasn't going to be able to change her mind. So he claimed that he followed her in his SUV all the way to the intersection of Miller park and Eden Prairie Road. She then said that she would call her brother Stephen to pick her up. So she was just not getting back in that car. He decided to turn around. He drove back towards his house in Victoria, which is a little bit more than a 15 minute drive from Eden Prairie. So the detective explained that since Mandy hadn't shown up for work that morning, they did have officers out there looking for her. And David tearfully said that he had also been out looking for her all morning, driving around near the park, her house, the high school, but there was no sign of her whatsoever. And I'll play a clip of him getting tearful.

[Detective]

What I'd like to do is, you know, we got people out looking for her. Obviously she didn't show up for work. And, you know, I'm sure you're very concerned about her as well. Looking all morning for. You've been looking all morning for. Where have you been? Just so we're not duplicating efforts here, just in the same area. What. What area? Over by the park? Yeah, over by her place. Miller Park. I mean, all the way to Eden Prairie High School, just looking, know what to do. Okay. All right. What do you think? What do you think she did? Because, I mean, you know her pretty well. You knew her state of mind. Do you have any idea, any friend's house that she may have gone to? No.

[Mike]

All right, well, I had kind of, since we already are, thinking that he's probably responsible for something here. You were always listening for, like, little things. Like, it was kind of like he was caught off guard about where he was looking. And he was just like, well, every. Everywhere, you know, like, trying to think of places where he might be looking. But we don't know for sure.

[Allison]

The detective also seemed a little caught off guard, too, because he's like, oh, you were looking for her?

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

And, I mean, he does sound a little desperate in his voice. But of course, we know he's the last person to have seen her. And they were out late at night, so of course he is going to be the number one suspect in this case. Not to mention that they were exes. And according to Wayne, they had been arguing on the phone before David came by to see Mandy. So when he was asked what he thought happened to Mandy, he began crying even harder, saying that he didn't think she would have walked to a friend's house. The officer told David that, you know, other investigations. And the investigation was active. Excuse me. So they were out on the street. They were trying to get statements to, you know, from various people they wanted to see. Did Mandy come to someone's house, put eyes on her? Exactly. So they would gather everything together in hopes of finding her. So as their phone call was coming to an end, David was asked if he could come down to the station for an interview. The detective was super nice. He said, we can also send an officer out to your house. They can do a tape, tape statement there if you're more comfortable with that. And he said no. He would drive out to the station right away. But the officer was so kind that he wanted to be sure that David was okay to drive because it was clear he was emotional on the phone, and he was assuring him, no, I'm okay. I will drive down to you in order to give you my statements. So David did as he said he would. He drove over to the police department. However, rather than going inside the station and asking for the detective that he had spoken with on the phone as he had been instructed, as you can hear in this taped interview, he instead wrote a note, and he left it on the front window of his suv, instructing his family to check his cell phone for a farewell message that he previously recorded. Then he put the gun in his mouth or put it under his chin. I don't know. He shot himself in the head.

[Mike]

Done.

[Allison]

And that's how they found him. He was still alive at that point in time when officers saw him in the state in his car. So he was transferred to the Hennepin County Medical Center. He died the following day.

[Mike]

What a cowardly scumbag.

[Allison]

With him died. Any information as to what happened to Mandy and where she could possibly be?

[Mike]

Coward, low life, piece of garbage.

[Allison]

So he knew, and I'll tell you all the information he knew there was no way he was going to get out of this. Blood that was found on a jacket that was in his SUV as well as on the rear hatch of the car was processed by the Hennepin County Crime Lab. The blood inside was confirmed to be Mandy's on May 4th. Searchers then found an unfired.40 caliber bullet in the parking lot of Victory Church, or, excuse me, Victory Lutheran Church in Eden Prairie Road and Scenic Heights Road. This is only minutes away from where he said they were at Miller Park. So a ballistics test of markings on it indicated that at some point it had recycled through his gun. It had been in the chamber of his Smith and Wesson handgun. This was the same gun that he used to kill himself. So the church is in a residential area about a block from where the Matula family actually lives. So during the early morning hours on Thursday, five neighbors recalled hearing popping sounds sometime between 2 and 4am coming from the area of the church, as well as the sounds of an adult screaming. Interestingly enough, no one called the police. I think they were just attributing it to other sounds.

[Mike]

Sure. And things happen. Like, you know, do you. You listen for it again, you know, you're almost like, should we call? And like, nothing.

[Allison]

Then it gets quiet.

[Mike]

I guess it's okay.

[Allison]

Okay. So one neighbor in particular who had been up at the time with her daughter. So I would take that to be a more solid time frame because they were awake versus someone who's woken up in the middle of the night. You might be more groggy. So they thought they were hearing the pop of a firecracker at 2:30 in the morning, followed by screams, and then the second sound of a loud firecracker.

[Mike]

In general, if you're hearing firecrackers sometime in May in the middle of the night and screams, it's probably a gun.

[Allison]

Right. And it's also, you know, very dark outside. It's a weeknight. People are working the next morning. It's less likely that people are just going to be out and about setting off fireworks.

[Mike]

Oh, anytime I hear fireworks, I always think, is there some kind of celebration? If not, are those gunfire? And it's usually something, you know, so

[Allison]

it's weird because we live in Florida and there's got to be some sort of gun range near our house.

[Mike]

I think it's somebody's house. It's just like there's land. People have land in Florida. They just like to shoot their guns.

[Allison]

And our dog hates the noise of fireworks, so she Hear and I'm talking like in a seven day stretch of time we might hear it like one to two times a week.

[Mike]

And like I've, because of that I've gotten to hear the, the sound difference between handguns and rifles.

[Allison]

Yes.

[Mike]

I can hear the handgun like pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. And then the rifle's like boom, boom, boom, boom. You know?

[Allison]

Yes.

[Mike]

You know, or not shotguns and stuff.

[Allison]

Me and our daughter were sitting on our patio table because it's so beautiful outside right now and we're eating our ramen dinner. Just sitting there just. And our daughter's like, huh, that gun sounds a little different than the one we usually hear.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

Like welcome to Florida. So according to Stephen as well as other Steven is Mandy's brother, David had purchased a pistol as well as two boxes of ammunition at and gun range rental time only a week before Mandy disappeared. Oh, they know because he was just telling them he was talking about it. But this was something that wasn't at all surprising to his friends. Because he was going to school to become a police officer, he also often went to the shooting range with his dad Christopher. So nothing seemed alarming. When he said he bought a gun

[Mike]

on Minnesota is a big hunting area too. I mean a handgun you wouldn't hunt with but.

[Allison]

Right. But this always brings it my mind that this was all premeditated that he purchased this gun to harm Mandy not because he was going to be a police officer. Right. So as word spread around town about the fact that David had had taken his own life, evidence in the car was highly concerning and Mandy is missing, everyone who knew him was truly shocked by what was happening because they always saw him as a nice young man. They said he never seemed to have a mean streak. And their friends had described David and David and Mandy's relationship as a roller coaster. They said it was very unstable. There were a lot of arguments. But based on family and friends who were all interviewed, every single one of them said they never ever would have believed that David was capable of ever harming Mandy. So his best friend Corey Rablin had met him for lunch only a few days earlier. And David had mentioned a man who had shot himself in a park. So I think that was also a premeditated part of the story. He said that he would be that guy if his relationship with Mandy ended. I mean that's concerning. So Corey also said he'd heard rumors of David making suicidal statements on two previous occasions. So after police spent the day searching for Mandy around her last known location, based on David's reports and then eventually based on where the bullet was found. But on that first day, they hadn't found that unspent bullet. So her family was then given the go ahead to begin searching. And they did, immediately. And Stephen, her little brother, immediately stepped up and began organizing and leading searches for his sister across their town, as well as the surrounding towns, including Sartel and Rice. So as days continue to go by, more and more people, essentially strangers to the family were just hearing about Mandy's story and having, you know, kindness and compassion in their hearts that, oh my gosh, if this was my child, I would want someone to step in and help. And that's always such a nice part of these devastating cases is how people come together to help one another.

[Mike]

It's all we can do. We're all in this whole world together, right? Anytime somebody wants help, they're like, oh, thanks. I'm like, we're like doing this together, right? Somehow.

[Allison]

And that's why I'm always so boggled when I'm spending time on Instagram in the evening and I'm seeing such nasty comments. It's like, we are all humans in this world trying to do our best. Why not help each other rather than pulling each other down? I just can't wrap my head around that. So each night, everyone would come together to plan out the next day. And every morning, as many as hundreds of people were coming together to help find sweet Mandy. So during the first week that Mandy was missing, Stephen learned that two other women were also missing. This is 30 year old Kira Steger and 27 year old Danielle Jelinek. So he decided right then and there that if they were going to be searching for their sister, that he was also going to want everyone to come together to help these other families find these other two missing people. Because you're in this hell and you're trapped and you don't know where your loved one is. So they can relate to what these girls families are feeling. So with this decision, Minnesota United was born. This is a community organization that provides support and assistance when a loved one disappears. So they not only share information and help with search and rescue, but they also support those that are struggling in the wake of a family member disappearing. So however, they had to wait 177agonizing days after Mandy went missing, not knowing what happened to her. And there was a Boy Scout leader that was out walking, hiking, and he found remains, human remains, in a shallow grave in Mississippi River county park. This is five miles north of Sartel, Minnesota the area is 70 Niles. Excuse me. 79 miles northwest of Eden Prairie, where Mandy was last seen. This is a drive that would have taken about an hour and a half each way or three hours round trip. So when this man was out walking on Saturday, October 26, 2013, he noticed a piece of fabric that was sticking from out from the ground. So he started to look closer, and he found skeletal remains, human skeletal remains wrapped in a blue blanket. The victim's head was also covered with a white plastic bag that was secured with duct tape around the neck. So since David's cell phone pinged in the St. Cloud area about 12 miles south of where her remains had actually been found, many searches had been conducted around this location throughout the summer. They just hadn't found her. So although they had to wait for positive identification, through dental records, Wayne confirmed that the ring that the victim was wearing matched Mandy's Eden Prairie class ring that she often wore, as well as a sweatshirt that was found with the victim with the University of Minnesota Duluth. Fast pitch number 14 on it. This is Mandy's number. While she was on the team, there was no doubt that this was Mandy. But it wasn't until the following day that the dental records confirmed 100% that this was Mandy. The medical examiner determined that she had died from a single gunshot wound to the head. So as heartbroken as they were, Mandy's family and friends did feel a weight come off their shoulders because they finally knew where she was. They thought in their mind that they might never find her so they could finally lay her to rest, feeling relief that their. Their tragic journey had come to an end. Of course, it wasn't what they hoped it would be. But by that point when, you know, when Mandy hadn't come home, they knew something was terribly, terribly wrong. And then, obviously, paired with the evidence that was found in David's car or suv, it wasn't going to be good.

[Mike]

Well, that dumbass shooting himself, obviously he couldn't live with the fact that he killed her. Like, just like you don't wonder where these minds come from. That's why we listen to these horrible stories. It's like, how could you bring yourself to do that? Somebody you like, love.

[Allison]

Somebody he loves, supposedly loved in some

[Mike]

sick way, the whole troll, if I can't have her, nobody can kind of bull crap.

[Allison]

Yeah. And it's like, if, you know, it's. It's bad enough if you want to harm yourself, but to take this innocent girl out of this world.

[Mike]

Yeah, go ahead and harm yourself. Like, nobody's stopping you? I mean, I'd rather you not, I guess, because that's what I'm supposed to say.

[Allison]

Don't murder this young girl.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

So based on David's cell phone as well as his financial records, because they're piecing everything together prior to this man coming upon Mandy, he left eden Prairie at 3:33 in the morning. He bought gas in Maple grove at around 4am this is two hours after he spoke with a detective saying, oh, I was home at 2:00am I mean, obviously this is all a lie. He was out and about at 4am filling up his tank because he had to make an hour and a half drive. So his phone was turned off from 4am to 5.49am and when it was powered back on at 5:50, which is interesting to me, that he would power it back on at the location of Mississippi river park where her body was found. Like, you're taking the time to shut your phone off, but then you're putting it back on at the scene of where her body is.

[Mike]

I was thinking when it was. You said it was pinging. That's like, really stupid.

[Allison]

So he turned his phone back off for 45 minutes. He probably needed to look at a map to figure out how to get home. And then it was tracked. His car was tracked moving south along I94.

[Mike]

What a complete idiot.

[Allison]

Idiots. So later that morning, he used his phone to make a goodbye video to his brother Patrick. And then he downloaded a Bible app.

[Mike]

Oh, yeah, read that before you die. Be like, well, now I'm Christian. I'm gonna be accepted into heaven. Like, I don't know.

[Allison]

So according to a supplementary report by the Bureau for Criminal Apprehension, it's likely that Mandy was shot and killed in the church parking lot based on the fact that the bullet was found there, as well as the sounds of screams and pops that neighbors had heard. So after more than a year of investigation that included six months of searching, interviews, research, photos and audio, the Eden Prairie Police Department officially closed Mandy's case on July 10, 2014. So rather than sitting in the car at Miller park talking until Mandy just stormed out of the car, as he said she did, David instead drove near Victory Lutheran Church. This is probably right around 2:30 is what I would guess based on that person that was awake over there. And he used the.40 caliber handgun that he had just purchased only days earlier at Mills Fleet Farm. He shot her in the head, and then he drove out to Mississippi river park to discard her body.

[Mike]

Like, what point do you pull out a gun and to go shoot this person that you supposedly love. And like that, you point it and it's like you. You pull the trigger. Like, I could never, ever imagine that.

[Allison]

So I think when they got into an argument on the ph, he knew he was losing her. So I think he brought that gun with him with the intention of killing her that night. That's my opinion. I don't think they got heated. And then he killed her. I think he planned on killing her that night.

[Mike]

Well, he bought it the week before, and, yeah, he was already thinking about stuff.

[Allison]

So according to the documents, David's autopsy found scratches to his hands. So it's clear that Mandy was fighting him back as well as acute alcohol intoxication. So he was wasted when he drove out to the police department and killed himself. Alcohol was also found in his car when he shot himself in the parking lot of the police department. Several friends, even though he was only 24 years old, they said that he really liked to drink. And when he did, his temper would often flare up. And I think we can all know someone that should have nothing to do with alcohol, because every time they drink drink, they just get mean and nasty and like that.

[Mike]

Right. There is a reason to just stop. Like, if you're a person that drinks alcohol and is known for getting nasty, like, stop it, man. Nothing good's gonna come out of this.

[Allison]

So although his dad admitted that he had issues with alcohol, he never considered him an alcoholic. But at the same time, he also said he had. Had received treatment for alcohol use. Or he said, excuse me, he hadn't received treatment for alcohol use, but he had attended Alcoholics Anonymous meetings for a while. So clearly David was recognizing that he had a problem, hence going to these meetings, which is a good thing.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

But to say, oh, I don't think he has a problem with alcohol. It's like at 24 years old, he's going to AA meetings and people are saying, oh, he gets mean and nasty.

[Mike]

Well, he's saying he's not an alcoholic. And that the big thing that a lot of old school people, they want to label. Yeah. And they're like, well, I don't. He doesn't wake up in the morning, needs a drink right away. So he's not an alcoholic. It's like. No, it's really the. The. I think the word alcoholic is gone.

[Allison]

I think it's alcohol use disorder is what it is.

[Mike]

Yeah. And so if, like, if it's something that bad things happen when you have alcohol, then you have a problem with alcohol.

[Allison]

Yeah. I Mean, alcohol in itself is a highly addictive substance. So it's hard to. A lot of people struggle. So after Mandy's death, a letter from him was found in her bedroom in which he was pleading with her to stay with him. And he said, I want you to stay us to stay together through our share of downs. But it sounds like they had a lot more downs than they did up. Several friends and family mentioned that David had been suspicious that Mandy had found someone new. So although Stephen had been determined to help with the searches of Kira Steger and Danielle Jelinek, they were of course each missing at the time that his sister was missing, he started to organize things to search for them. But that very month each of their bodies were also found. So 30 year old Kira Steger vanished after she was last seen on February 21, 2013. She was last seen leaving her job at the Mall of America. Her badly decomposed body was then recovered from the Mississippi river three months later in May, while they were looking for, you know, Mandy. So she was found naked. She was severely beaten with a head wound, a broken finger, bruising inside her lip, lacerations to her liver. She was beaten so severely.

[Mike]

The only way I could picture doing that to somebody is if they're like gonna actively harm you or your family.

[Allison]

I mean, you have to be such a sick, sick person. They also found a wad of duct tape in her hair. And her husband, 39 year old Jeffrey Tervino, had been in custody ever since they started the investigation for Kira because they immediately found blood spatter in their bedroom as well as her DNA in the trunk of her car. Jeffrey was convicted for her murder in October of 2013 and he was found guilty of second degree murder. He was sentenced to 27 and a half years with at least 18 years to be spent in prison, which I think is insane because 18 years for viciously beating someone to death and then discarding the remains is insane to me.

[Mike]

And not just someone, but his wife.

[Allison]

His wife.

[Mike]

And that's like ultra horrible.

[Allison]

Yes. So on the other hand, 27 year old Danielle Jelinek, she disappeared on December 8, 2012 after spending the night at Aaron Schnegel's home. Her body was found five months later in May of 2013 in a swampy area that's known as Peterson's Pond, right near Aaron's home. So although the area had been previously searched, there was a lot of snow on the ground. Of course this is Minnesota, so her body had been concealed. It wasn't until the springtime when everything Thawed that they finally found her. And sadly, Daniel, Danielle. Excuse me. Had been battling an active methamphetamine addiction ever since high school. So she had gone into treatment on multiple occasions to get sober. And according to her sister Corey, she actually had gotten sober after her last treatments all the way back in 2004. But then she met and began dating Aaron. He was using drugs, and then she got back into it as well. So an autopsy found drugs and alcohol in her system, but no exact cause of death was listed. The jury was told that after Danielle arrived at Aaron's house, they were drinking together. They did cocaine. He had given her this cocaine is what the prosecution is saying. So after she died from an overdose, rather than contacting 911 for help, the prosecution accused him of dumping her body in this nearby pond on his property or nearby in order to conceal her death. But then they heard from the defense that Danielle had purchased these drugs on her own and she had left Aaron's house. He didn't see her die, but she wandered off. She had basically stumbled around, fallen down, and then died of exposure.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Allison]

And then there was a snowstorm happening on the night of her death, so her remains were quickly concealed.

[Mike]

I mean, possible, depending on the drug and stuff.

[Allison]

So Aaron was found guilty of third degree murder for providing her with the cocaine that led to her death.

[Mike]

Well, cocaine you're usually going, right? That's an upper. So I don't know.

[Allison]

Yeah, but you can have a heart attack, you know. So she maybe started to feel bad and then left and wandered off is what the defense is saying.

[Mike]

Sure.

[Allison]

So the jury didn't believe that he tried to conceal her body. They do believe that she wandered off into the snow on this cold night and she got lost or confused or fell asleep and died of exposure. So he was found guilty of third degree murder for providing her with the cocaine that led to her death.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Death.

[Allison]

Did I already say that? If I did say it already, I just want you to know he was found guilty of third degree murder.

[Mike]

It's an important detail.

[Allison]

So a judge sentenced him to more than 13 years in prison. This happened in June of 2016 with credit for time already served, as by this point he had served three and a half years. He'll serve the more than seven year sentence concurrently with an unrelated drug charge. I will tell you, I looked up his current whereabouts. As of the latest available public record. From October 21, 2025, he is released from prison under supervision with Ramsey County Community Corrections. Although the Matula family may not have personally Known these two girls who were also missing at their daughter's time, Kira and Danielle, they came to know them through those who love them. They connected with their families. They were three families that were distraught, grieving, just. Just suffering together, going through some of

[Mike]

the worst things you could possibly think of.

[Allison]

And because of that, they know that they were just as extraordinary as Mandy had been. Danielle's family describe her as a bright light, and they feel saddened that she'll never have the opportunity to get married, to have children, to live out the remainder of what could have been a long and healthy life.

[Mike]

And that's the worst part. Like, as speaking as a parent, we tell our. Our son he's getting to be almost an adult age here, and it's like, we've been putting in a lot of effort to get you out of this nest here. So, you know, like, you're. You put a lot of love and compassion sometimes, you know, you. You make a mistake here and there, and you learn from them, and you learn together and grow together, and. And it's like, all right, you want to see them off, and then you want to see what they can accomplish, and just for them to pursue happiness, right? And then it's like, all that is gone, completely gone. For all this. All these families.

[Allison]

So, so sad. So for Jay and Marcy Steger, they felt relief that they were able to finally bring their daughter Kira home after months and months of searching. They will remember her as a young woman with a beautiful smile, someone who was full of life. Although they have answers and justice has been served because, of course, her husband murdered her, they know that this justice will never bring their daughter back. She'll never walk in the front door and say, hi, mom and dad. And that's just something that you can say, closure. But wounds like these, they never heal. You have a deep scar, you know, you start to learn a new normal and how to function in life without a person. But it never goes away. It's always there. You might be fine one moment, and then the next second, something triggers your memory and you're sopping again. Gotten.

[Mike]

Yeah. The whole closure thing never made sense to me. I got asked about it once on this TV thing that we did, like, a year ago, and it was like, do you think that was closure for them? I'm like, I would never have my heart closed. Like, my heart is basically wide open and bleeding for the rest of my life now. It might bleed a little bit less, but maybe that's the closure, I guess. But, like, I. Closure is like, Done.

[Allison]

You know it's done. You're never done.

[Mike]

Never. Not until you're. You're done with the world.

[Allison]

Yeah, it's like I lost my mom about four months ago and I'll be fine for days. And then I might not be feeling well or I want to pick up the phone and call her and then I'm sobbing all over again. It's like there's no rhyme or reason to grief. It just comes in waves and you just gotta ride them out. Mandy Matula was a 24 year old whose life was only just beginning. She was a daughter, a sister and a friend. Someone that should have had many decades of her life ahead of her. But instead, her life was violently taken by someone that her family never expected. When she walked out of her house that day, they knew that she was going to talk to David. They never thought twice about it. To this day, Eden Prairie High School displays a banner with her name and number on the varsity dugout for every home game that they have. The number 14 has been retired in her honor and is no longer worn by high school players because that was her number. There's a bench and a plaque at Miller park that's dedicated to Mandy. And each year a softball tournament is held in her memory because softball was everything to her. It was like her life. So if you or someone you know is being hurt or abused, please contact the National Domestic abuse hotline at 800-799-7233 or text begin to 88788. There's also the crisis hotline. If you are experiencing a crisis, that's dial or text 988.

[Mike]

Yep, 988.

[Allison]

988. So help is available. You know, it's like, obviously David was not in a good headspace, hence what he did. But you, you just can't take someone out of this world because they don't want to be your girlfriend.

[Mike]

Yeah, that's kind of the contract we sign as society, as humans. Yeah, just, you know, I don't care if you believe in a higher power or not. It's just kind of like, just don't kill other people that haven't done you any wrong, you know, I mean, you really shouldn't kill anybody anyways. But I mean, I could see if, like somebody hurt your family, but. Yeah, that doesn't make any sense. And it's horrible. All it does is ripple. Like the, the sadness that you're feeling is only going to be worse and worse. Maybe that's what part of what makes them feel better about It. If I feel sad, everybody else is going to also.

[Allison]

Yeah. So just a terribly sad story. Just a beautiful young woman just taken out of this world. Her family will grieve her loss forever because this guy couldn't have her.

[Mike]

A question I have. You said there was verbal abuse and not necessarily physical abuse. So, like. Like is verbal ab. Like, what. What would be verbally abusive? Just continuously talking somebody down and telling them they're worthless.

[Allison]

Yeah. I mean, there's various forms. Of course, I have no experience with that. I'm not a psychiatrist or a psychologist, but I sometimes will come across reals on Instagram, and it's women that are recording their partners, like, verbally abusing. Abusing them real quick.

[Mike]

A lot of those are fake. So I. I gotta say that not. Not all of them are real. I mean, it's. Not all are fake. Well, there's a lot of.

[Allison]

One of the girls, she was promoting that. That she got out of her abusive relationship.

[Mike]

And that's awesome. I love that.

[Allison]

And what I heard coming from this man's mouth was so horrible and shocking.

[Mike]

What was it? You don't have to say the exact

[Allison]

words, berating them, telling them what a horrible piece of crap human being they are. Like, when you love someone, you should never speak to them that way. And if you are with someone that's telling you that they are loving you or that they love you and then they're talking to you like that. That. That is not love. That is sick.

[Mike]

And repetitively, I want to say, because, you know, everybody might lose their temper sometimes and say some horrible things that they really, really don't mean. Yeah.

[Allison]

That's called having a temper outburst.

[Mike]

Right.

[Allison]

That's not ongoing verbal abuse.

[Mike]

And that's where communication comes in. Like, so many people are afraid to have that communication because you don't want to make them blow up again.

[Allison]

Right, right, right. So it's like a ticking time bomb that you're tiptoeing around because you don't want to set it, you don't want to detonate it.

[Mike]

Yeah. And then you're just like, okay, everything's good, and everything's good when. When things are in a good way, but things will get nasty again at some point because life has ups and

[Allison]

downs, peaks and valleys, peaks and valleys. And every relationship has a peak and valley. But how high is the peak and how low is that valley? That's the difference. Like, Mike and I might squabble like, oh, I thought you were gonna get up earlier to do that. Mike's like, Oh, I stayed up late and I gotta get my eight hours. And I'm like. That's, like, the extent of our. Our arguments.

[Mike]

Yeah, let me. Let me say something about that. So Allison has expectations. It's true about everything, literally everything in life. Like, the smallest detail, there's an expectation of when that will be done or checked off the box. So I have almost no say in any of that stuff. So it's like. No, I have say. Okay, okay.

[Allison]

Oh, my goodness. You have. No, you should have seen.

[Mike]

So I have say. But, like, everybody.

[Detective]

I.

[Mike]

You. You come up with those thoughts. Processes before you.

[Allison]

Somebody has to.

[Mike]

I know. I know you do a lot. I'm not saying you don't.

[Allison]

There has to be a captain of the ship.

[Mike]

Yeah. But there's like, down to the smallest detail. Like. Well, I figure the bread will go in at exactly 4:45. And if it's like, Mike, it's 450. Why isn't the bread in? I'm like, I. Okay. I had, like, a thing for work and I had to answer a text. We're five minutes off the schedule. It's not completely that crazy, but it's. It's kind of close.

[Allison]

It is. And I'll see. Another thing about Instagram reels that say like, oh, I'm type B and I do this. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, I am type A to a T. Yeah.

[Mike]

Type B to you is like.

[Allison]

It's like how.

[Mike]

Bowl of toilet water. It's. Yeah. You're not that area.

[Allison]

I just. I'm a very controlled person. And I'm not saying it's good. I probably live in my own woman

[Mike]

made prison mania manic.

[Allison]

In mania. And I've pulled you into my mania.

[Mike]

Well, part of, you know, I want to go back to the communication thing. Part of your family way of communicating is sometimes a little harsh. Right.

[Allison]

Yeah, I would agree with that.

[Mike]

And that was in our big. The beginning of our relationship. And I'd be like, you can't talk to me like that. Like, that's. And that was all because they just wanted to hurt each other emotionally. And I get that now. It's like, that's how they wanted to do it. My family would just stop talking to each other. So it's like completely doing the same thing, but, like, both bad.

[Allison]

Yeah. We were on each side of the spectrum, family wise, and we had to meet in the middle. And it's taken time, you know, still does. We've been together for 30 years, and it's taken time it's not perfect. You've helped calm me down and I've helped give you some more rigor. Rile me up more like, okay, we have to make a decision. We have to get ready to leave the house.

[Mike]

Okay, so these, when we record these episodes, this is the funny thing, she's like, it's got to be at 7:30. And in my head I'm like, we have nothing planned, literally nothing until your parents are here.

[Allison]

And I want to spend time with them.

[Mike]

This is this day. I know, but like normally it's like we have Nothing planned but 7:30 in her head for whatever reason, because she's going to bed at 9. I'm like, well, maybe I want to stay up till 10. I still want to get eight hours of sleep.

[Allison]

No, you can't. No. Because the point is our house can be chaotic. We have two kids, we have neighbors that have lawn services. There are times we're sitting down to record an episode and we have to stop five times because the garbage trucks are coming through. Those are noisy. Oh, next door neighbor's lawn. People are here. Gotta stop the tape.

[Mike]

You're right, that did happen.

[Allison]

Earlier in the morning is just when people are sleeping. That's the time to do it.

[Mike]

I agree, I like it. But I also want eight hours of sleep.

[Allison]

There's normally a method to my madness. But I read something on Pinterest today and I know we're spiraling off topic right now, but, but it said something like, don't hold other people's expectations to you or something like that.

[Mike]

That's your biggest problem.

[Allison]

And I, I really do need to because I'm just very controlled and I just expect everyone else is going to be on time, everyone else is going to be organized, everyone else is going to be, you know, have this done

[Mike]

well and the other weird thing and you can feel free to skip to the whatever episode. But like when I'm driving and you're in the car, I basically shut my brain off because I know you're going to tell me what to do all the time. So. And it's just like I was walking in the garage and you were like telling me to do something. I'm like, no, kid, I already know that. It's like, but you have to have that control all the time because sometimes

[Allison]

you don't do it right.

[Mike]

But. And then, so it's like a, it keeps on feeding the, the, the monster, I guess. Yeah. Because it's like, okay, well I may as well not even think cuz she's Just going to say how to do it, please.

[Allison]

That sounds like you're a victim waving a white flag.

[Mike]

If I had a white flag, I'd be waving it. It's enablement. That's what it is. So if you want so, you know, like your kids, like, teach somebody to fish rather than give them a fish. You're always. You're constantly giving me the fish because you want to make sure the fish is going to be there when you get there.

[Allison]

So I'm not even just giving you the fish. I have filleted it. I've seasoned it with lemon pepper, and it sauteed.

[Mike]

Not so much anymore. I'm doing the sauteing these days. But, yes, you're exactly right. You do so much. You do so, so much. I'm not trying to take anything away from you.

[Allison]

Don't touch me.

[Mike]

But sometimes let me, you know, think. Try to let me think when I'm on my own. Believe it or not, I get places. I can buy things. I can get things done.

[Allison]

Don't shut your brain off work, man.

[Mike]

I am just getting things done all the time.

[Allison]

Oh, yeah. Look at you. Okay, we have gone off on way too much of a spiral, and I'm so sorry that our marital issues have. Have spun into this wild web of darkness.

[Mike]

You guys are kind of our therapy session, too, so thank you so much.

[Allison]

Yeah, exactly. We get to talk things out on air.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

So thank you guys so much for being here. And we do deliver a free episode, like Mike said in the beginning, every Sunday, and then those bonuses come through every Wednesday. You can find us on Patreon and Apple subscription. Please check us out. Hop on over to YouTube. We would love to see you guys over there. We're really trying to build that channel.

[Mike]

Instagram, Tik Tok. We're all over the place, man. Come see us. I. I put new Tik Toks about like, like trending stories every once in

[Allison]

a while, too, and you do a good job.

[Mike]

Oh, thank you.

[Allison]

Yeah. So thank you guys so much. Have a wonderful week. Be safe. Maybe say something positive to someone else online rather than something negative.

[Mike]

Or in real life.

[Allison]

Or in real life. Pay it forward and take care of each other and until next time, bye.