Cari Farver | Email Confessions From the Killer (Part 4)

Summary

Crime Weekly – Cari Farver | Email Confessions From the Killer (Part 4)

Episode Overview

In this gripping conclusion to their four-part series, Stephanie Harlowe and Derrick Levasseur wrap up the infamous case of Cari Farver, a woman who seemingly vanished only to be accused of an unrelenting stalking campaign—until evidence finally shifted the blame. The hosts detail the shocking unraveling of the truth: that Liz Golyar killed Cari and spent years impersonating her, targeting Dave Krupa and others close to him with thousands of messages, false accusations, and even staged violence. The episode meticulously reconstructs the investigative breakthroughs, mounting evidence, and the psychological tactics that finally led to justice, while honoring the memory of the real victim, Cari Farver.

Table of Contents

• Recap of the Case & Cliffhanger (06:58)
• The Staging of the Shooting (08:20)
• The Tech Trail: Unraveling the Digital Evidence (18:30)
• Police Countermeasures: GPS, Geofencing, and Interrogation Tactics (24:21)
• Liz’s Escalation: Confessions by Email (30:44)
• The Investigation Tightens: Forensic Breakthroughs (48:10)
• Arrest, Trial, and Sentencing (63:04)
• Reflections & Final Thoughts (82:19)

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Recap of the Case & Cliffhanger (06:58)

• Stephanie recaps how for years, local detectives believed Cari Farver disappeared voluntarily and was stalking Dave Krupa and his associates.
• The season’s twist: Investigators Jim Doty and Ryan Avis found evidence in 2015 pointing not to Cari but to Shanna "Liz" Golyar, who had murdered Cari and impersonated her for years.
• Last episode ended with a dramatic event: Liz claimed she’d been shot by Dave’s ex, Amy, a further attempt to mislead investigators.
• Derrick: "My gut tells me Amy didn’t shoot her. Nobody shot her." (07:22)
• Stephanie: "What if the twist is it has been Amy this whole time?" (07:35)

---

The Staging of the Shooting (08:20)

• On December 5, 2015, Liz claimed Amy shot her in the thigh at Big Lake Park; she changed her story from not knowing the shooter to directly accusing Amy.
• Stephanie and Derrick point out the inconsistencies and Liz’s pattern of projecting her own traits onto others.
• Police immediately doubted Amy’s involvement—her car was cold, her alibi solid, and her reaction genuine.
• Derrick: "You can tell immediately who’s involved and who isn’t — just by the reactions." (11:45)
• Liz backpedals: "Well, it sounded like her. It sounded like Amy, you know?" (13:38)

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The Tech Trail: Unraveling the Digital Evidence (18:30)

• Detectives download Dave and Amy’s phones; IT expert Anthony Kava finds 15,000 emails and more than 25,000 texts from "Cari," mostly originating from Liz’s IP address.
• Liz lived with Todd Butterbaugh, using his house as her "troll lair" to orchestrate digital attacks.
• Stephanie: "The basement was like Liz’s troll case layer. Not the bat cave — the troll lair, where she’s working overtime to send all these texts and emails." (19:28)
• Discussion of Todd’s awareness and complicity: Stephanie sees him as a victim; Derrick is more skeptical.

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Police Countermeasures: GPS, Geofencing, and Interrogation Tactics (24:21)

• Police escalate monitoring: GPS tracker on Liz’s car and geofence around Amy’s home. If Liz gets close, police are alerted.
• Despite mounting evidence, police are hesitant to arrest, instead opting to pressure Liz and gather more.
• Derrick: "You have an obligation to let [Amy] know her life is in jeopardy... Your number one priority is to preserve life." (27:14)
• Police lure Liz in by pretending they’ve found Cari’s remains, hoping to provoke a confession or slip-up.

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Liz’s Escalation: Confessions by Email (30:44)

• After meeting with detectives, Liz forwards an email supposedly from Amy explicitly confessing to shooting Liz and murdering Cari, with lurid details about burning the body and discarding evidence.
• Stephanie: "And now at this point I feel like Liz has just absolutely lost her mind." (34:33)
• Derrick analyzes the criminal psychology, noting Liz’s "lack of self-awareness" and possible "fractured" mindset.
• Additional emails confess to arson and more — all traced to Liz’s computer.

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The Investigation Tightens: Forensic Breakthroughs (48:10)

• Tech specialist Kava discovers emails with details not publicly known, including references to Cari’s unique tattoos—confirming guilt knowledge.
• Police return to Cari’s Explorer for a critical third search; Doty finds substantial blood evidence under a seat cover.
• Stephanie: "This is kind of pissing me off. You found this on your third look. Does Doty and Avis have to do everything here?" (54:21)
• This forensically connects the scene of violence to Cari.

---

Arrest, Trial, and Sentencing (63:04)

• Detectives collect more damning evidence: a specific shower curtain bought on Cari’s card, now in Liz’s new home, and SD cards from Liz’s devices containing photos of what appears to be Cari’s decomposing, tattooed foot—direct links from Liz to the crime.
• Liz is arrested and eventually charged with first-degree murder and arson, opting for a bench trial.
• The defense argues there’s "no body, no weapon, no eyewitnesses." (66:36)
• Prosecution delivers a devastating circumstantial case, aided by Liz’s own detailed, self-incriminating emails and photographic evidence.
• Judge finds Liz guilty of first-degree murder and second-degree arson. Liz is sentenced to life in prison, sentences to run concurrently.
• Liz continues to proclaim her innocence from prison.
• Notable quote: Former defense attorney: "In my decades of practicing law, it’s one of the most powerful presentations of circumstantial evidence that I’ve ever seen." (79:31)

---

Reflections & Final Thoughts (82:19)

• Stephanie closes with a tribute to Cari, reading the prosecution’s summation: "For years, the defendant portrayed Carrie as a conniving, jealous, obsessed stalker. But all along, it was her. She was all of those things." (82:21)
• The hosts describe the deep impact on Cari’s family: her son Max, her mother, and friends who still lack closure.
• Derrick highlights the hope for closure, appealing to Liz to reveal the location of Cari’s remains.
• Stephanie: "We know almost too much at some point, and then there’s still so much that we don’t know." (86:11)
• Derrick muses on missed opportunities with technology and forensic work, encouraging greater efforts to find Cari’s body and bring closure.

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Memorable Moments & Key Quotes

• On Liz’s self-inflicted shooting: "If she got there, she did it on a magic carpet because she didn’t take this car." – Derrick (11:15)
• On the volume of evidence: "15,000 emails... traced back to Liz’s IP address... the basement was her troll lair." – Stephanie (19:28)
• On Liz’s delusions: "I really have to wonder if, like, Liz was mentally ill to the point she was fractured and, when she was impersonating these people, she actually believed she was these people." – Stephanie (49:55)
• On the prosecution’s challenge: "Most homicides are dark. This one was bizarre to the point where it would take something convincing [for a jury] to believe it..." (70:09)
• On the tragedy of no closure: "We still don’t have Carrie...there’s still that unknown...I don’t have a lot of hope, but I’m wishful that at some point Liz will come forward and say...here’s where she is." – Derrick (85:41)

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Concluding Notes

This episode showcases both meticulous criminal investigation and the bizarre psychology of a killer who, for years, thrived on impersonation, manipulation, and cruelty. Stephanie and Derrick give listeners a deeply researched, emotionally resonant closure, emphasizing not just the “how” and “why” but the tragic impact on the real victim’s loved ones. The case remains a potent reminder that extraordinary evil can hide in plain sight—and sometimes, heroic persistence is required to bring it to light.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

[B]

And I'm Derek Levasser.

[A]

So today we're diving into the fourth and final part of the Carrie Farver case. I'm excited. I'm excited to wrap this up because, you know, the. The twists and turns.

[B]

You sure there's not going to be a sixth part where we're going to find out she's imitating someone else pretending to be someone applying for their jobs? Chang her name.

[A]

We're going to find out. It was. It was Dave the whole time.

[B]

Imagine you. You throw that twist at me and everyone else where you're like, oh, by the way, it was actually Dave the entire time.

[A]

That'd be impersonating Carrie and Liz.

[B]

Yeah. That would be insane. That would be insane. Real quick, before we start, we are just getting back from CrimeCon at this point. We got the chance to meet a lot of you.

[A]

We are not technically getting back from Crime Con.

[B]

Yeah, we're recording before Crime Con.

[A]

Literally, we're recording this a few days before we leave for crime. Com. But when you watch it on our physical bodies.

[B]

Yes. This is Inception. We're just talking about. This is Inception and happy to see everybody again. I'm sure it was a good time. Had a couple people DM me. A couple people in the comments mentioned Patreon.

[A]

For.

[B]

Anybody doesn't know.

[A]

I thought you were going to be like, I had a couple people DM Meon. They. We had. They had a great time.

[B]

No, we're not that good.

[A]

Like, oh, man, you're really.

[B]

No, we're not that good.

[A]

You're really selling this.

[B]

No, we're not that good.

[A]

Yes, we had people. We've had a lot of people actually ask about Patreon lately, and I don't know why. What do you think triggered that?

[B]

Well, I think it's because on. On our social media and on Apple podcasts and Spotify, they're now seeing the bonus episodes. So real quickly to kind of break it down. And if you don't want to listen to this, you can just skip over it. But for Patreon, there's different tiers, different options with each tier, but you get, like, general discussions, chat rooms that me and. That me and Stephanie are in. There's also a monthly giveaway. We've given away some pretty cool stuff up to this point. There's going to be a yearly giveaway for. Or a yearly present, or I guess you would call it a gift for our top tier members. And then on top of that, we do a monthly life. We also do the bonus episode. That's probably the biggest value where you're getting an episode. We like to call it Crime Bite, where it's one entire story in one episode. So you get the beginning, middle and end by the end of the episode. But if the Patreon thing's not for you, where you're not as sociable and you don't want to be in the Patreon chat rooms, that's fine. We also have Crime Weekly plus, which is on Apple Podcasts. And if you're someone who's on YouTube and you're like, hey, man, I really don't want any of the other things. I just want to be able to interact and use the emojis and get the episodes early and ad free. We have that on YouTube memberships as well. So all of the episodes, whether you're on Patreon or Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, no matter what it is, whatever membership you sign up for, if you're someone who's like, I don't want to see the ads, I don't want to see any of the ads, those are your options. Some platforms come with more values if, if you will than others. But personal preference, we've been upgrading it. We've been really getting into it, and the bonus episodes have been something that people really like and, and we're enjoying doing them. And in fact, even though we're recording this early, we're actually going to be doing our live tonight.

[A]

You.

[B]

You won't see this till afterwards, but we do a private little live. There's probably only private. Little less than 100 people in there, right? Yeah, less than 100. So it's really personal. We're chatting with everyone. We're usually making jokes, having fun, talking about random stuff. Last month we were talking about actors and who we thought was attractive. It was a really weird conversation.

[A]

I got to tell you. Tonight's live is probably going to be pretty chaotic because we have been working so hard this week to make sure we have everything done. My. I'm. I'm, as the kids say, cooked mentally.

[B]

So you've been banking episodes for your personal channel? I've been banking episodes for my channel. And now we. We also have some really cool. Well, I guess we can say it now, right? Because they're not going to see this till after.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that okay?

[A]

Why? We could.

[B]

I don't know if it's going to be out yet, though.

[A]

Are you cool with saying, yeah, we can. We can tell them why don't you tell them?

[B]

Cuz you, you were the one that kind of facilitated this. I just made the meeting happen with Crime.

[A]

But the people who fast forwarded because they don't want to hear about Patreon,

[B]

they just missed this.

[A]

They're gonna miss this. Okay, so when we go to Crimecon, because I don't know if you, if you don't, if you don't follow me personally on my channel. I've been really digging into the Epstein files. I've done several episodes on the Epstein files already and it's just absolute bananas. But when I noticed that there's going to be three Jeffrey Epstein survivors at Crimecon, I was like, we cannot pass this up. Derek and I have to talk to them. Like, I need to speak to them. So we're going to be interviewing Courtney Wild, Haley Robson and Jenna Le Lisa Jones at Crimecon. And basically we are going to be putting that out for everybody on Crime Weekly, not just Patreons.

[B]

Everyone will have access to that one for sure. And most of the episodes you're going to have access to regardless. This is just in case you wanted them ad free. So you'll have that if you've been watching all week. This week, Crime Weekly News should have already dropped. And that was our live episode that we recorded at Crimecon with Nikki about her mom. And the whole thing is just an amazing time. We love doing it and we're looking forward to next year. So that was my little spiel to start the show. I think I took a total of five minutes, but some people will still be mad at us. It is what it is.

[A]

We're sorry.

[B]

We're sorry. Please don't hit me.

[A]

Whenever I get mad at my son and I'm like, why'd you do that? He's like, I'm sorry.

[B]

And then you're like, I'm like, I

[A]

can't be mad at you. Fraking adorable teenager. All right, so let's dive in to today's episode. I'm going to give a quick recap because it's been a week, technically for everyone else, but for us it's been like two days. So for years, detectives with the Potami County Sheriff's Office In Iowa believed 37 year old Carrie Farver had willingly disappeared and was responsible for a relentless stalking campaign targeting the people closest to Dave Krupa, a guy she went out on a few dates with and kind of dated for a few weeks. Thousands of messages, fake accounts, threats, vandalism, and even arson all appeared to point back to carry if you were looking at it in a. Like, a microchasm, and you weren't looking at the bigger picture, and you were a detective at that point. But for me and Derek, we were like, come on, what do you think's going on here? But after reopening the case in 2015, true detectives Ryan Avis and Jim Doty uncovered evidence that changed everything. They no longer believed Carrie was alive. Instead, they believe she'd been murdered by Shayna Liz Goiler, who had spent years impersonating Carrie while orchestrating the chaos herself. So as detectives quickly and quietly work to untangle what happened to Carrie, Liz continued inserting herself into the investigation. Remember, now Liz is claiming Dave's ex girlfriend, who he has kids with, Amy. That's the real person who's been stalking her.

[B]

Y. That was a curveball. Last week.

[A]

That was a curveball. Then just one day after shifting the blame to Amy, everything took a sudden and violent turn, because on December 5, 2015, police responded to Big Lake park in Council Bluffs, Iowa, where Dave moved. Okay. And this is also where Liz had been shot in the thigh. And according to Liz, Dave's ex girlfriend, Amy was the one who had pulled the trigger.

[B]

And that's where we ended it. And you left us on that cliffhanger where I'm like, okay, now Liz is in the driveway, and she's got a hole in her thigh. She's saying Amy shot her. My gut tells me. My gut tells me Amy didn't shoot her. Nobody shot her.

[A]

But what if the twist is it has been Amy this whole time?

[B]

I mean, listen, Dave and Amy shot her story. Writing here would be incredible because you had me fooled. I think you had most people fooled. So we can dive into it, because I have a feeling you're gonna tell us or you're gonna reveal that Liz

[A]

shot herself, which is absolutely bananas. That's dedication.

[B]

This is the same woman who killed her Animals in a fire.

[A]

I know, I know.

[B]

I don't know how the story ends, but the fact that she shot herself and she didn't kill more people other than Carrie, Allegedly from. You know what I know so far?

[A]

Not yet. We haven't finished yet. We don't know.

[B]

We haven't finished. But I think all the writings on the wall, I'm surprised more people aren't dead because of her.

[A]

She's willing to see it through. This is not a person who half asses things, I guess.

[B]

No.

[A]

So let's back up a bit and talk about this quote unquote shooting. So on Dec. 5, 2015, was around 6:40pm Police were dispatched to Big Lake park in Council Bluffs, Iowa, because Liz had called and reported that she had been shot. So when an officer arrived, he found Liz next to her car. She had been shot in the left thigh. He asked her who shot her, and at first she said she didn't know. The officer then asked where she'd been shot, and Liz said she'd been near a bench that was about 100 yards away from where she was when the police got there. Then, seemingly out of nowhere, she suddenly remembered who did it. She said, quote, it was Amy. Amy shot me. End quote. According to Liz, she'd been lying on the bench thinking, when Amy suddenly appeared and blurted out, quote, so you like Dave? End quote. Then, according to Liz, Amy shot her and fled. And Liz said she had no idea where Amy went. This doesn't really make sense. Like if. If someone's like, who shot you? And she's like, I don't know. And then all of a sudden you're like, no, I remember it was Amy. And not only do I remember, because I just suddenly remembered I saw her face. She spoke to.

[B]

Yep. Gave me her exact motive for shooting me.

[A]

Do you ever notice that Liz makes all of these other people sound like the most crass individuals ever as well, you know?

[B]

Yeah, she's projecting for sure.

[A]

Yeah. Like that's her all day long. You like Dave? Huh? Huh? Is what you like, you know, and it's like, come on, man.

[B]

Yeah, because that's what's going on.

[A]

Because that's how Liz thinks.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

She's got, like, Carrie texting and being like, oh, you're stupid, ugly children all deserve to die.

[B]

She clearly thinks her kids are ugly.

[A]

Yeah, these are the most crazy ass, like, aggressive, out of nowhere people that Liz is portraying in these other women. All right, so medics and another police officer soon arrived. Liz was rushed to the hospital. Meanwhile, police cordoned off the crime scene. Officers searched the park for the shooter, and helicopter was even brought in to assist. But no matter how hard they looked, there was no sign of a shooter. And at the same time, officers went to Amy's house to see if she was there. Amy is home, right? Because she quickly shot somebody and then rushed home and. And acted as if everything was fine.

[B]

She's at home making a Lean Cuisine or something, and she's like, what?

[A]

Yeah, she's at home, you know, in the middle of, like, Sunday cleaning or something. She. She answers the door holding her son. She finds police standing outside with Guns pointed at her. I would have been pissed. Officers questioned Amy. She was fully cooperative and probably completely confused. She denied having anything to do with Liz being shot, of course. And one officer touched the hood of Amy's car and immediately not. It was cool to the touch, which is really, you know, it's like a quick way because you can't get there on foot. What other car would you take? You're obviously back home, so you didn't walk. Unless there's some accomplice here who's giving you rides to and from the park to shoot someone in the thigh. You probably weren't there because your engine's cold.

[B]

You would expect that engine bay to be warm and that hood to be hot, so. Or at least warm. And so that is a quick way to be like, huh. Well, if she got there, she did it on a magic carpet because she didn't take this car.

[A]

A magic carpet ride. So this told the detectives that Amy clearly had not driven anywhere recently. And based on that, police did not think Amy was involved. So she wasn't arrested.

[B]

And by the way, I'm sure, again, if these police officers have been on the job a little bit, you can tell. I don't even know how to explain it.

[A]

Yeah, just an initial gut feeling of like, this person genuinely seems.

[B]

Their reaction.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Either they're a Oscar winning actor or like a sociopath. Yeah, yeah. It's pretty organic. And you can tell there's been multiple times where we show up on something or we've responded to a fight. And you can tell immediately who's involved and who isn't just by the reactions. Right. Oh, what are you talking about, Officer? But you can see that they're looking around and they're sweating and you could tell they just went through something. And then there's the times when you walk up on someone and like, whoa, hold on, pause. What did I do? Like, you can just tell they have no idea.

[A]

It's a genuine, authentic reaction. Yes.

[B]

And immediately you're like, oh, this isn't the person.

[A]

Let me second. I do this with my kids all the time. I'll tell them I know something and then just see how they react. And if they react in a way where it's like even slightly like, oh, I'm caught, then I know. But if they're genuinely confused, I can tell. I can tell the difference. So, yeah, they did not arrest her. That's great. But while officers were searching for Amy or the shooter, and while they were making the trip to her house, Liz was still at the hospital where doctors confirmed and determined that the bullet had gone straight through her thigh. So a detective soon arrived to interview her. And Liz said she felt nervous earlier that evening after noticing a silver car parked near her house. It looked like Amy's car, but by the time Liz stepped outside to get a better look, it had vanished. She said she went to the park to think, and while laying on a bench, Amy suddenly showed up and shot her, most likely with Dave's stolen gun. Because, remember, somebody broke into Dave's apartment and stole his gun.

[B]

How convenient.

[A]

Yeah. So while the detective was interviewing Liz, he got a call from one of the officers who had gone to Amy's house. And this officer was like, listen, I don't think Amy's involved. So then the detective told Liz, hey, I just talked to one of the other police officers who went to Amy's house. She was there. Her engine's cool. Doesn't really think. Feel like she was involved and has

[B]

her baby in her hands. Nobody else there to watch them who was watching the baby.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then Liz was like, well, it sounded like her. It sounded like Amy, you know, so now. Now Liz is backpedaling.

[B]

Yeah, I didn't get a clear look.

[A]

Yeah. Like, I know I really said it with my chest, like, it definitely was her, but now I'm just going to say it sounded like her. But rem. Remember, Liz is also the person who, days before this, is talking to one of the detectives that's looking into Carrie's death. And now Liz is saying to this guy, hey, I know for years, I've been saying Carrie's the one stalking me and Dave, but now I think it's Amy. So it's. It's really kind of. Obviously, she's setting it up to appear that way, that she's trying to weave a narrative for these detectives as if she's smarter than them. And, I mean, maybe it's because she was smarter than the first few of the detectives that were on the case, but.

[B]

Yeah, specifically a sergeant.

[A]

Yeah, a certain mention.

[B]

But I also think there's some desperation here where she's so deep into it at this point. She's trying to find a way out, and she's trying to have it be on one loose end that she can tie up, and they go to prison, and that's the end of it. But her stories aren't making sense, and she has people who have half a brain investigating it, and they're able to quickly deduce that something's not adding up.

[A]

I was Almost wondering if Liz at some point was getting, like, an indication that things were about to come to a head.

[B]

I, I, that's what I'm saying.

[A]

Like, she knew the police were talking to Butterball, right? And she's kind of thinking like, hey, I've been telling all of these people lies, different lies. It's all going to come to a head. They're going to find out Carrie's dead. And if I start to make Amy look like a crazy person, then when they find out Carrie's dead, I can say that Amy killed Carrie, and I'll

[B]

have some reasonable doubt setting up some more safety nets. I also think we were kind of joking last week when we were talking about, I don't remember if it was Dodie or Avis, but someone, one of the two was like, hey, yeah, no, I'm, I'm actually working this case. And they followed her out and they were able to get her phone, and he was playing nice, and we were, we were kidding around, saying she probably thought he was flirting with her. But the reality is there may have been a part of her that's like, this detective's taking an awful big interest in this, and maybe he's doing this for other reasons. This is not good. Maybe she picked up on that.

[A]

Well, she went in to report that she was worried about Amy stalking her, and so then he followed her out. As in, like, oh, I overheard you. Like, this is really concerning. Not saying, like, I'm, he wasn't saying, like, I'm investigating Carrie Farver's disappearance. He was like, oh, I just heard you talking about this. Like, this is concerning. If there's any way I can help kind of thing.

[B]

Right? And he took an interest in it. And I'm saying this, and this is kind of like a knock on law enforcement. What you will find, if you've had experience with law enforcement in some departments, they're not as willing to help like they own. If it's not their case, they don't care about it. So to have a detective go, oh, I was just, I had overheard your, you know, what you were saying there, and that's terrible. You know, what can we do? You know, how can I help? You don't normally get that type of bedside manners, and I, I would like to think you should, but you don't. And so maybe she's like, huh, this guy's awful willing to kind of like, help me out right now. Like, why is that? What's the, what's the motive here? You know? And maybe she was Like, I gotta. I gotta elevate this.

[A]

You could be like, police usually aren't this attentive.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Maybe. And maybe that's what led to. Or part of it was like, I gotta. I gotta raise the stakes here. I gotta do something. I gotta put Amy behind bars.

[A]

I definitely think that she probably knew. Like, hey, I've set a lot of dominoes up over these past few years, and there's absolutely no way that. That they're gonna just. This is never gonna be found out.

[B]

No. Eventually someone's going to put two and two together that Carrie isn't alive, and they're going to be able to figure out how long she's actually been gone. And it's going to leave the big question, well, then if it's not. If it's not Carrie, who. Who's sending these messages?

[A]

I just think it's weird that Liz keeps giving her phone over to be downloaded even after she has Todd Butterbaugh. Like, when they download your phone, what do the police give from it? And he told her, well, I think

[B]

part of it is, like, hubris. Right. But also maybe the feeling that if she doesn't give it over, it makes her look guilty. So she's like, oh, yeah, of course. Like, almost calling their bluff. Like, I'll let them download it in the hopes that they don't actually do their job or that maybe Sergeant Phillips is still on the case, and then it'll just slip. Just slip through the cracks, you know?

[A]

I also think she's thinking, I. I am. I'm able to explain my way out of everything and have been for my entire life. So I'll just make something up. I'll. I'll be like, wait, how did that picture of. Of Carrie's SUV get on my phone? She must. I mean, she's in it, you know, she must have put it on my phone somehow.

[B]

Or she turns around and bl. Butterball now.

[A]

Yeah, it's butterball. Or Dave did it. Because, you know, I'm dating David. He must have taken my phone and taken that picture, trying to frame me like she thinks I can. If I continue making excuses and nobody can ever really pin me down and I'm all over the place, I might be able to get away with this.

[B]

Yeah, just scatter it.

[A]

So much so, it wasn't long before detectives working Carrie's case learned Liz had been shot. And they were immediately suspicious. So they asked Amy and Dave to come in and speak with them. They didn't tell either of them that they believed Carrie was dead or that she had never been a stalker in. Instead, they asked Dave and Amy if they could download their phones to review the messages that they'd been receiving, and they both agreed. So when Anthony Cava, who's the IT guy, he looked through the data from Dave and Amy's phones, he learned that Dave alone had received around 15,000 emails and more than 25,000 texts from Carrie, quote, unquote, Carrie, aka Liz. And many of the emails had been sent from Todd Butterb's IP address, which meant they really came from Liz because she's living with Todd Butterbaugh. And remember, she was like, I'm gonna live with you and move in with you, but I'm not gonna sleep in the bed with you. I'm gonna go in the basement. The basement was like Liz's troll case layer. Yeah, her, her troll layer. Not the bat cave, the troll layer, where she's got probably more than one device set up and she is working overtime to send all of these texts and emails. And she's doing it from. I feel bad for Todd because she's doing it from his house, you know?

[B]

Do you, do you feel bad for Todd, though?

[A]

Kind of, yeah.

[B]

I mean, wouldn't it raise.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

A red flag for you if the person you're seeing is like, oh, I have to sleep.

[A]

Yes, for sure.

[B]

But I mean, come on.

[A]

As a reformed trusting person, I remember being that way where I was like, you know, they probably have a good reason for being this way. They. Yeah, they had a hard childhood.

[B]

You just have a bigger heart than me because I don't have a lot of sympathy for them. Feel like maybe there's a world where Todd just looked the other way because he was like, you know, I like the, I like the company, I like the attention.

[A]

But he also said, remember, at some point he was like, I kind of didn't really push Liz because I was afraid of what she might do to me.

[B]

Right. I, I. So, I mean, there's a lot going on there. And yeah, fine, we'll get, we'll, we'll give, we'll give Todd the pass.

[A]

Right. Currently, as it stands. So let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar, our exclusive snack and hydration sponsor. IQ Bar protein bars, IQ Mix hydration mixes and IQ Joe mushroom coffees are the delicious low sugar, brain and body fuel you need to win your day.

[B]

Yeah. And I feel like that's one of the hardest parts of a busy day, is avoiding that Crash halfway through. I know with you and I being here all day recording, it gets rough.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah, we eat them all day here at the office. It's something to supplement a mid meal. We're recording sometimes for four or five hours. And I do get an energy boost after I eat an IQ Bar. I usually take it maybe a half hour before we start recording.

[A]

They're actually filling, right?

[B]

Yeah, they really are. And they taste amazing. That's the most important part. The IQ Bar protein bars have plant protein, tons of fiber, and no added sugar. And they're perfect when you need something quick that won't make you crash later. And if you're new to this whole game that we've been talking about for a while, the Ultimate Sampler Pack is honestly the easiest way to try everything. You get nine IQ bars, eight IQ mixticks, four IQ Joe sticks, plus a bunch of different flavors like mint chocolate chip and blueberry pomegranate.

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[B]

I'm tracked.

[A]

She did not take them to that bench. Instead, she walked right past it and led them to the opposite side of the lake. And there was another bench there, but it definitely was not the same one she described before. And you'd have to wonder how, after getting shot in the thigh, would you be able to make it all the way from that bench across the lake back to your vehicle to where you were found? Like, that would probably be a little bit more difficult than stumbling 100 yards from a bench to your car to call the police.

[B]

But I could tell you this. There would be a blood trail.

[A]

There would be blood all over right there.

[B]

It'd be blood all over the grass or sand or whatever.

[A]

He might have, like, passed out from blood loss at that point, probably.

[B]

And even though it was a through and through, I'm assuming at this point, it didn't hit, like, a major artery or anything, but still, there's a lot of.

[A]

There's blood.

[B]

A lot of blood flow there, unless

[A]

you're wrapping it and tourniqueting it or whatever, which I don't believe she did. So detectives searched that area across the lake thoroughly, but they came up empty. There was no projectiles, no shell casings, no weap. At that point, Council Bluff's police believed Liz had likely shot herself. And the detectives working on Carrie's case, they agreed. They became deeply concerned for Amy's safety, so they quietly put a protection plan in place. They obtained a warrant to place a GPS tracker on Liz's car. They also created a geofence around Amy's apartment complex, meaning if Liz's vehicle entered the area, detectives would receive text alerts if she stayed too long. Now, I think if you're entering the area at all, you're. You're there too long, because we already have, you know, we don't have, I guess, all the evidence that you need to arrest her. But the detectives are already like, yeah, we definitely think she killed Carrie Farver, right? And now she's doing the same kind of thing with Amy. This seems to be where she's headed to also kill Amy and then, you know, take over her identity. And do the same thing over with Amy that she did with Carrie. So. So you shouldn't be anywhere near her house at this point.

[B]

And you're right. At this point, the only way to make sure there's only one side of the story is to make sure that Amy's dead. Right, because Carrie can't speak for herself.

[A]

Yeah, because Amy's already thrown a wrench in your whole shooting you in the thigh story by denying it.

[B]

That's right. So this is the. This is the wrench in the plan. Right. This is a variable that you can't control. So anything you say or do that you try to pin on Amy, they can go ask her about it. It. And that's not good for Liz. That's not what she wants.

[A]

But here's another thing. You're bringing Amy and Dave in to talk to them, and you're like, telling them, oh, things that you know what's going on here, but you're not telling Amy, hey, someone named Liz is kind of like after you and seems to be targeting you. And we have a strong suspicion that she already killed somebody. So Amy kind of really doesn't even know. And I have a problem with this because at this point, I feel like the only way you can protect Amy or really anyone else is to arrest Liz. You do. Do you feel like you have enough at this point to place her under arrest for something?

[B]

The way you're telling the story, it sounds to me like at this point they have enough to arrest Liz. Especially unless the. The order's a little off for impersonation

[A]

or like filing a false police report or something.

[B]

No. Well, but when you. When they figure out that it's coming from Todd's IP address, you can reverse engineer it from there. All the emails that were sent, the things that were said in those letters, the photo being found on her phone. Totality of circumstances, you could build a pretty strong case against her. At this point with Amy, the only thing I would push back on is I do think you have an obligation to let her know that her life is in jeopardy. I would probably refrain from letting her know that we believe Liz is responsible for another murder, because just for chain

[A]

of custody issues, you don't want Amy to start talking to people and get it back to Liz that they're investigating her for murder.

[B]

But you can. You still, your number one priority is to preserve life. And so without jeopardizing the investigation, you can still let Amy know that we need to protect you. You need to be cognizant of Your surroundings, this person could hurt you. And so you can do that without letting her know that Liz is a suspect in another murder. You could still accomplish the goal.

[A]

Yeah, but. So at this point, they've got a GPS tracker on Liz's vehicle. They've got Amy's house geo. Fenced. Right. But Amy's pretty much still like, not really knowing.

[B]

No. Kind of in the darkness of this.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Which is concerning. Especially having a small child at home.

[A]

Yeah. I don't even know if they told her, like, we're gonna geofence your house and we're gonna, you know, put a track.

[B]

Wouldn't have to.

[A]

They wouldn't have to.

[B]

No.

[A]

So Council Bluffs police agreed they would immediately respond to protect Amy if Liz's vehicle when did that geofenced area and stayed too long. But once again, Amy has absolutely no idea of any of this is happening. The tracker alerted police many times every single day to Liz's presence in the area. Once again, this is time to arrest her. Now, usually she would just drive through Amy's parking lot and leave. So officers never intervened. But detectives knew they needed to ramp up the investigation. So they invited Liz to Detective Do's office under the guise that they had found Carrie deceased. And this was Do's first time meeting her. She's already talked to Avis, so he introduced himself to Liz and explained he was working a missing person's case. And the detectives had found remains they believed belong to Carrie. But at this point, they don't know. They don't know where Carrie's remains really are. And Liz theoretically does. Right. Because she's the one who killed Carrie. So they've got to be very careful with this conversation because if they say the wrong thing, she's going to know

[B]

they're full of and they're smoked out. That's it. Yep.

[A]

So Liz acted like she did not know much about Carrie. She claimed they had only met once in passing. Liz said she originally believed Carrie had been stalking her, but now she thought it was Amy. And Detective Doty played along and told Liz he hoped to build a case against Amy for Carrie's murder, but did not yet have enough evidence. If he had proof Amy made threatening statements or implied she had done something. To carry that kind of evidence would be like gold. That's how he explained it to Liz. And wouldn't you know it, after that meeting, Liz found this gold evidence. She forwarded an email to Dodie claiming Amy had sent it to her. And the subject line read, I shot you and the email said, quote, I shot you, Liz, to make sure Dave stayed away from you. I got rid of the gun. Looks like the police haven't arrested me. No one has proof it was me, end quote. Except this email you just sent Amy.

[B]

Yeah, and where's that email sent from again? Let me guess. Probably Todd's ip. Yeah, or somewhere that's connected to Liz

[A]

dating and I. I An I. T. Person and not understanding what IP addresses do and how it's easy to, like, figure out where things came from if you know how to do it. It's a little of an oversight on Liz's part. She should have been maybe having more conversations with talent. You should have been taking advantage of this boyfriend that you were using for a babysitter. You should have used him for what was in his hat. Honestly, more.

[B]

No, I agree. Agree. This is 2012, not 1912 at this point. IP tracking, metadata analysis, it's all a thing. And. And you would think she would have done our research.

[A]

So this was kind of what the detectives had hoped for, right? Liz impersonating Amy and essentially confessing to shooting herself. The problem was she confessed to the wrong crime. Detectives had needed Amy to talk about Carrie Farver, and so Dodie told Liz the shooting at the park was not even his case, not his jurisdiction. And he's like, h. You know, unfortunately, I can't really do anything with this. There's another department handling that investigation. But I'm on Carrie's murder, and I need information about that. Like, I really wish you had something that could help me with that. And Liz was like, don't worry. I'll work on it. I'm gonna go home to Todd's tonight, sit in the basement, and fabricate this evidence that you need.

[B]

Well, here. Here's the angle I'm looking at. And by the way, this is a genius move. It's risky. As you said, it could really blow up in your face. However, you're telling that. You're telling this person that you believe killed Carrie, that you found her body.

[A]

You think you might have remains that might be hers. Yes.

[B]

Might be hers. Believing that this person knows exactly what happened to her. So if she's. If Carrie's in a location that Liz can't go back and confirm whether or not they found her, you could have a scenario now where he wants her to specifically talk about Carrie. Because if she provides an email from, quote, unquote, Amy providing information about Carrie's death or disappearance that only the person responsible would know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Bang. There you go. Guilt Knowledge right now they. All they have to do is, is show that the email wasn't sent from Amy and was sent from Liz and you got her dead to rights. It's a really, it's a really cool angle and I'm, I'm impressed, I'm impressed by Dodie and Avis this entire time.

[A]

Also, they have Liz's car with the tracker on it now. So let's say she's like, well, let me go to the place where I put Carrie's remains to see if they really did find Carrie's remains.

[B]

Yeah, it's brilliant, right?

[A]

It' a really good investigative facets of this where you could potentially catch her up red handed.

[B]

Yep, it's really, it's a really good job. Makes me happy.

[A]

Within days of Dodie telling her like, it's really Carrie's murder. I need evidence.

[B]

I need, I need just some gold.

[A]

Just, just, you know, could you find something? You've been so good. I mean, we might want to hire you after this.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, I'm sure they did throw that line out there too.

[A]

So within days of this meeting, Liz forwarded another email to Dodie. This one said, quote, when I met crazy Carrie, she would not stop talking about Dave and him being her husband. She tried to attack me, but I attacked her with a knife. I stabbed her three to four times in the stomach area, end quote. Now, the email claimed that after being stabbed, Carrie was still alive and begging for her life, while Amy supposedly spent the, quote, whole time watching the life drain from her body, end quote.

[B]

O, wow.

[A]

Okay, Liz. So the email continued, quote, I then took her out and burned her. I stuffed her body in a garbage can with crap. She was carried out to the dumpster, probably when Dave took my garbage out from me. So be glad I did not do you that way, Liz. I will never admit to Dave or police. No one. Maybe I'm drunk now and just telling lies to you. Dave will always take care of me and protect me, so I will never have to go to jail. When I followed you that night, I shot you. I left my baby home because he was sleeping. Made sure I called Dave and texted him for my alibi. So you can never prove it was me, end quote. Except for the email of you confessing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, the email with your head with your email header at the top.

[A]

If Liz wants the police to believe that Amy sent this email, then it would mean that emails like this would be, you know, be. Have some weight with the police. So if Amy's like, no one will ever Figure out it was me. As I confess everything to you, like a, a, a super villain and in a bad movie and send this email to you, like. And now at this point I feel like Liz has just absolutely lost her mind because.

[B]

No, but she feels like this is her way out.

[A]

How they convince her seem so obvious?

[B]

No, I think, I think to her, well, she's not the sharpest tool in the shed, clearly. I mean, there's a lot of things she's done in this case that she almost has.

[A]

Like, like she's delusional about how things

[B]

look, she's, she lacks self awareness. She's definitely mentally disturbed. And in her mind it all makes sense, but in reality, everyone else watching is going, what are you doing? But to kind of break down what she said there in this email or quote unquote Amy said in this email. It's important because obviously what she's describing here is brutally murdering Carrie. But more importantly, burning her body, disposing of it in the, in the garbage and having it end up in a dumpster, which would mean it would end up in a landfill. So if that's true, then more than likely you're never going to find Carrie. And that's, that's important in this case because you're looking at a nobody homicide.

[A]

Yeah. And then Liz went back to Dodie with that email, right? And he was like, okay, now I need some really solid gold evidence about who Jack the Ripper was. And a few days later she came back and she was like, here, I got an email from Jack the Ripper. And he's like, yeah, hey, it's Jack. Hi. Hi Liz, how you doing? Writing you from the 1800s is just want to tell you what my identity is.

[B]

Like is that coincidentally it just always comes her way.

[A]

It just, she gets, she's manifesting, right. The detectives are like, I need exactly this in an email from exactly this person. She's like, hold on, let me go home. Manifest on this, meditate and really like bring this energy that you need towards me. I got you. I help you.

[B]

Maybe you're going to address this, but in my head right now, I'm thinking if there's any truth to what she's saying here. Did she stab Carry?

[A]

She's describing what she did to Carrie.

[B]

Right, Right. If she killed her in the apartment or if she killed her at the entrance way, you would expect to find some remnants of this bloody crime scene, even if it was cleaned up, whether it's bleach or whatever. But I don't know, looking Back at these four. Four parts that we've done. If they did that, it sounds like

[A]

she's trying to say that she did it at her house. Right. I took her out and burned her. I stuffed her body in a garbage. She was carried out to the dumpster, probably when Dave took my garbage out for me.

[B]

So how did she get her back to the apartment?

[A]

I don't know, but I. I don't know if that's exactly what happened. But I get what you think, that the whole stabbing thing and all of that, she's going to describe that accurately if she suspects that they might have access to remains or something like that. Because you can burn somebody, but you still can't burn them to an ext where, you know, like, what are we talking about here? You don't have some high powered incinerator.

[B]

No, but that, that would make sense. That would make sense because if what you're saying is true, then it would also give her even more incentive to burn her house down or burn her place down, because that's where forensically, they would be able to tie the murder

[A]

to Liz, if that's where she was. Yeah, but how would she get her there? That's very. That's it.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know, but maybe it's just by force. If they're in the car, right? If she. If Carrie comes downstairs, Liz has a knife and says, we're going for a ride, get in the car. I'm going to kill you right here. Maybe. Maybe Carrie freezes and does what she says.

[A]

So you're saying Carrie leaves Dave's apartment to go to work, she gets in her car, maybe Liz is already in there, pops up from the backseat, holds a knife to her neck, drive.

[B]

Yep. And that would explain maybe while the fingerprints gets on the little mints or whatever in the car. So that could be what we're talking about here. But we shall see.

[A]

Well, just 30 minutes after this first email where Amy is confessing everything to how she killed Carrie, Amy sent another email to Liz and this one confessed to the arson at Liz's house. The subject line read crazy and began quote, now that I got your attention, don't ever come back around my kids, Dave, or me. Just like your house getting burned was me. That's another thing that Dave won't believe either. End quote. Except you're putting it in writing.

[B]

But here's the thing, right? She's at home writing these letters. Her wheels are turning. She's thinking about, did they find remnants of Carrie and it make it Reminds her of something that she had also done to try to destroy evidence. Burn her house down.

[A]

And if I can prove Amy was at my house, then that would. Yeah.

[B]

Hey, listen, there's a lot more to talk about. I'm into it. I really want to hear how this one's going to end. Let's take a break. We'll be right back.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah, I mean, they're amazing. Listen, I. I get everyone's like, oh, it's just a hose. But when you have a hose that doesn't work, it's a pain in the. You know what, when you're trying to walk around your yard and right now, you know, summer has officially started and you're outside every day watering something. So it. It's definitely convenient to have a good hose.

[A]

I've seen it before. I've had to use hoses even though I don't want to. I have a pool and a koi pond, and they're always needing more water. And then they're just, like, heavy, and they. I don't know how you put them back the way you think they should go. And then when you go to take them out, they're all tied up and knotted and you're yanking on and you're making it worse. But that does not happen with the pocket hose ballistic. It's. It's such an upgrade. It's incredibly lightweight. Really lightweight, easy to move around. And when you turn the water on, it expands, and then it shrinks right back down when you're done. So you're not wrestling with this giant heavy hose afterwards, which, you know, that was my arm workout for a while, so I'm gonna have to figure out something to, To. To supplement it with.

[B]

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[A]

It actually makes the pocket hose five times stronger than steel.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[B]

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All you have to do is text CW to 64,000. That. That's CW to 64,000 for your two free gifts with purchase. One more time, text CW to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply. Okay, so obviously now we have these emails, right? And they're confessing things. They're confessing to the arson. They're confessing to Carrie Farver's murder. So Anthony Cava, the IT guy, he immediately got to work tracing the IP addresses from Amy's messages and learned, of course, that they were coming from Todd Butterbaugh's house. Now, at that point, it was very clear that Liz had been posing as Amy, just as detectives suspected. So within a few days of those emails being forwarded to Detective Doty, Liz told him she would not be able to help him build the case against Amy for a while because she was too busy moving. So it's like, I'm too busy to send myself emails, so I can't have anything else to give you. It's like you're too busy moving. So what, you stop being harassed?

[B]

Like, the person stopped sending emails.

[A]

I'm too busy moving. So Amy's not bothering me right now because I'm moving, but when I'm settled, I'm sure something else will come in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So this wasn't a lie, technically, because after the shooting, Todd had finally convinced Liz that she had to go. She had to get the hell out of his house. He told her he could not be involved in whatever dangerous drama she'd been swept up in, and she needed to go. So Liz then moved to Persia, Iowa, a town of around 300 people about 35 miles northeast of Omaha. If I'm Liz, I'm heading for the border at this mom, I'm not staying in Omaha. Yeah, okay. Like, I'm like, okay, things are getting hot here. Yeah, I'm sending crazy emails. Canada looks good. You know, at this point, I'm not staying in Omaha. She's out of her mind. So over the next few weeks, Liz continued speaking with Detective Doty a handful of times and continued forwarding him more incriminating emails supposedly sent by Amy, who politely waited for Liz to finish moving before resuming her stalking and harassing activities.

[B]

How nice of her.

[A]

So Liz told Dodie she was frustrated it was taking so long for the police to arrest Amy. And at the same time, she kept telling Dave over and over again that Amy had been the one stalking them all along, not Carrie. According to Liz, Amy was responsible for burning down her house in shooting at her. But this strategy ended up backfiring for Liz because Dave, this was not some new person he was dating for a few weeks. Dave had known Amy for more than 15 years. Yeah, right.

[B]

Had kids together.

[A]

They had kids together.

[B]

They weren't really married, but it was like they were married.

[A]

You know, they had gone through way more things, lived together, all of that. He was absolutely certain Amy would never hurt anyone. There was simply no way she was capable of the things Liz was accusing her of. And at this point, Dave's probably like, man, maybe I should have just stayed with Amy because she's a good person. She's the mother of my children. I went out here trying to find, you know, plenty of fish. I wanted. I wanted more fish, but these fish have not been great.

[B]

I don't know. Dave doesn't seem like the quite the logical thinker to me, but I could be wrong. I've been rough on Dave this whole

[A]

series, but, I mean, at least when he was with Amy, he wasn't being stalked by. By multiple people. As far as he's concerned, that is true. So in late January of 2016, Dave finally called detectives, and he shared his concerns about Amy being blamed for all of this by Liz. Detectives decided to tell him part of the truth. They explained that they believed Liz had actually been the one stalking him, and they made it clear that they thought she was extremely dangerous. They also told him they feared Amy and his children and then Amy's new baby. They could be in danger. So after that conversation, Dave called Amy. Now, Amy had suspected Liz all along and had raised concerns over the years, because a woman's intuition cannot be beat. You know, Amy was over there telling Dave, like, how many red flags does Liz have to show you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Before you're 100. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Like, what are we doing here?

[A]

As a woman, I can tell you that this one you're dealing with kind of out of her mind, I would step back and Dave was like, but she jumped on me. So Amy's been trying to warn Dave for a while. Dave had not believed her until now because he's not too smart. And so Amy basically told Dave, I told you so. Which, I mean, I don't. I don't blame her for that. Like, I usually don't like and I told you so. But in this situation, it's warranted. So then Dave and Amy decided to move in together so they could protect the kids together and keep an eye on things. Oh, but I'm. I'm confused because was it. Didn't Amy have a baby of someone else? Where's that dude? And how's he feel about Dave and Amy moving it together?

[B]

Obviously, he's not in the picture.

[A]

No.

[B]

But either way, this must have been. And rage.

[A]

Oh, Liz is going to be pissed.

[B]

It's like the opposite of what she's

[A]

been trying to them together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, now, because now Dave and Amy are bonding on the same thing.

[B]

They're united, but by this common cause,

[A]

which is what Liz and Dave had been united on, but it was a fake orchestrated common cause, whereas this is an actual common cause.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

Something that. That Liz could never genuinely replicate. So detectives were glad that Dave moved in with Amy because they believed it would drive Liz mad and potentially to incriminate herself even further. Kind of escalate. Right?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And of course, as we all suspected and knew, that plan did work. Not long after, Liz called doie again to complain that Amy still had not been arrested. And Detective Doty apologized, but told her he needed more detailed information if he was going to build a case. He explained the emails simply did not contain enough specifics.

[B]

Man.

[A]

Liz was like, say no more.

[B]

Say less. I got you, Dodie. Coming your way.

[A]

She's like, you need more specifics. All right, hold on. And then, no. Liz actually was like, okay, I'm gonna send you more proof. But instead of forwarding more emails, she went directly to Dodie's office and offered him access to her Google account, explaining it was just far too much trouble to keep forwarding Amy's messages. Liz handed over the password, and detectives immediately began monitoring the account.

[B]

What an idiot, man. Wow. Remember that old saying, like, if they were smart, we wouldn't catch them? She's the poster child for that.

[A]

She's like, do you want to set up surveillance cameras inside my house so you can watch me all the time?

[B]

Yeah. She really didn't have a lot of high Hopes or respect for this police department. She just think they. They weren't doing anything.

[A]

I think she had a high opinion of her own intelligence.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That was unwarranted.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So within hours, of course, within hours of her providing all of this information so the police can be in her account in real time. More confessions from Amy started appearing. One email described driving around with Carrie in Carrie's own vehicle before stabbing her multiple times in the stomach.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

The email also claimed that Amy cleaned Carrie's vehicle afterward. There were additional details included that were incredibly specific enough that detectives knew the killer was revealing pieces of the truth. The writer accurately described the inside of Carrie's home and referenced a yin yang tattoo on Carrie's left hip to prove that she wasn't, quote, lying about offing that crazy. End quote. This statement was notable because that tattoo had never been made public before. Guilt knowledge.

[B]

Yeah. This is absolutely brilliant. I mean, let's really recap what we're talking about here. They are getting the suspect to write a written confession about everything they did without the person knowing it. They didn't even have to Mirandize her because in her mind, she's Amy. So they're able to get this guilt knowledge confession, which, after the fact, they will prove to the court that in reality, it was Liz writing these emails and that's who they should be going after. So it's. It's really brilliant work. And I have to say, we've been doing this for almost five years. I've never heard of this approach before. This is completely innovative. Obviously, it's a rare circumstance to have a suspect this dumb and to think that this is going to work. But this is why I love Crime Weekly, because here I am still being surprised by criminals and surprised by the tactics being implemented by law enforcement. But it's. It's really, really great work.

[A]

Yeah. And I mean, yeah, you have to assume that I. I really have to wonder if, like, Liz was mentally ill to the point where she was fractured and when she was impersonating these people, she actually believed that she was these people.

[B]

I don't doubt it. I don't doubt it. There's no way a rational person wouldn't know that this is bad.

[A]

It reminds me of that movie Split, Remember?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where, like, he would become someone else, but then not remember what he did when he was that someone else.

[B]

I wouldn't be surprised if there were some underlying conditions that she would be diagnosed with later. But I do want to go back to the actual confession itself. It Confirms what we were speculating about earlier. Right. That more than likely, Liz confronted Carrie as she left Dave's apartment. They got into the truck, probably at knife point, drove around, allegedly went to Carrie's house.

[A]

Yeah, so that's what I wanted to pull back to. She. She described the inside of Carrie's house. So now I'm wondering, well, did she bring her to her house? How would Liz know that no one was home at Carrie's house? Well, I guess her son Max would be at school.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And Carrie's son Max was being cared for by her mother because Carrie was staying with Dave for that project. So was Carrie's house ever checked by the police, forensically? And at this point, Carrie's been gone for so long, that house probably is no longer even viable.

[B]

Yeah, if somebody else has been living there, it's bad. However, you could still go back after the fact and find evidence of a cleanup. It would be harder to attach it to Liz and the crime itself. But hypothetically, if there's a carpet in Carrie's apartment and we were to learn that she was stabbed and allowed to bleed out on that carpet, even though it was cleaned, we all know at this point, you could still forensically put that under some type of alternate light source and be able to see whether it's through luminal or some other scientific process. You would be able to see what occurred in that location. And so, yeah. Is it Carrie's apartment? Is it. Is it Liz's house? It has to be one of the two. And I would think, in hindsight, they could go back and process that crime scene.

[A]

So here's what I'm thinking. I think that where Carrie was staying was a rental. And obviously, when she's gone and not paying rent, they're gonna re. They're gonna rent it to someone else, right? Now, do you have to get those people's perm. Go in there, or the landlord's permission to go in there or get a warrant? Either way, you could.

[B]

Well, you could definitely get a warrant, right? You could articulate that. That that particular apartment was used in a crime, and you could definitely do it. It would cause some issues because the tenants that currently live there do have an expectation of privacy. So you could go there and ask for verbal consent, and more than likely, they would give it to you. But if for some reason they said no, then, yeah, you could still articulate any search warrant to a judge that you needed access to that apartment because it contained evidence that could be helpful to a homicide investigation.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So either way, they can get in there. But it's just interesting that you would take her to her place to do that, but. I suppose. But. But it also sounded like she said she was stabbing her in the car.

[B]

I don't think she was stabbing her in the car.

[A]

She said driving around in the vehicle before stabbing her multiple times in the stomach.

[B]

Yeah, I think it was at a different location where she stabbed her. I don't think it would be in the car. If it were in the car, they would have found something in one of the crevices of that vehicle or in the carpet to suggest that Carrie had bled out in the vehicle. I think it was at either her apartment or Liz's place, but I think

[A]

we can safely say not at Dave's apartment.

[B]

Not at Dave's apartment. But I. I also don't know what was being done in the early stages of this investigation before Doty and Avis took it over. Not much. So nothing was being processed.

[A]

Yeah, I don't even think they went into Dave's apartment and processed it.

[B]

Yeah, that's the problem.

[A]

I don't even think that they figured out who Dave was until months and months after Carrie had been missing. Because Carrie's mom didn't know who Dave was. Yeah, she just knew her daughter was with someone she had met and had been dating. They didn't really know each other. She didn't know his last name, remember? All right, so after receiving this email, Detective searched Carrie's Explorer for a third time, hoping to find something. And this time, Dodie looked at the vehicle and himself. And when he removed the cloth seat covers, he found a large reddish stain soaked into the foam of the passenger seat. This is kind of pissing me off. You found this on your third look. Does it. Does Dodie and Avis have to do everything here? Your third look? So they process the Explorer the first time, and they don't think it's, like, connected to a murder, so they just look for fingerprints. Okay, understandable. You missed the blood. But then they literally go in a second time to look for blood in the Explorer. You didn't remove the seat covers.

[B]

I got no excuse.

[A]

What are we talking about here? The hell's going on in Omaha? Just. And then. And then, of course, Detective Doty has to come in. And really, I keep calling them, like, the true detectives, but they remind me of the first season of True Detective, which is hands down the best with Matthew McConaughey and Woody Harrelson, where it's like all the other police force they're just like, whatever, let this weird cult take all the kids. You know, we can't. Can't do anything about it. And Matthew McConaughey and Woody Harrelson are like, we're gonna actually do real police work. But they're just doing, like, what they should be doing and following the leads they should be following.

[B]

I'm just surprised that they didn't even, like, spray the car down with, like, lcv. Like, something to basically enhance any type of blood that could have been there. Like, with the lcv, we're talking about the chemical agent that would react with blood and cause, like, a bluish, purplish stainless steel. You would expect them to spray down that whole car with LCV to see if there's anything.

[A]

Yeah. Because if there's blood. So what they're saying, they're not like seat covers that you'd put on yourself. It's the actual seat cover that comes standard with the car. So, yes, when they pulled that seat cover up in the foam underneath, that's

[B]

why they found the blood.

[A]

But there must have been a good amount of blood on that C cover for it to have soaked into the foam underneath.

[B]

So, of course.

[A]

Damn. Liz did a great cleaning job, so maybe. Maybe she should have started a cleaning company. Honestly, at this point, that's where LCV

[B]

would have been pretty good in this case, I think, where sometimes with luminol, it can react with cleaning agents to give a false positive. But with. With lcv, you can spray it and in the crevices, let's just say the pattern that's on that seat cover, if they can't get into that little crevice, what you're going to see after the fact is this clean seat cover, but this purplish blue color in all sort

[A]

of rise to the surface. Yeah.

[B]

It would all. Just any blood that they weren't able to get out, it's all going to react with it, even if it's a microscopic amount. So, yeah, that. That was a missed opportunity there for sure.

[A]

Well, get this, because we're talking about where did the crime happen? Where did the stabbing happen? Well, now it looks like it might have happened in Carrie's Explorer, because.

[B]

Yeah, you kind of suggested that.

[A]

Yeah, there was enough blood in the foam of the passenger seat to suggest a violent crime had occurred, just like the emails described. But this is the passenger seat. So what's going on? Was Liz driving when she stabbed Carrie? So now I have to sort of, you know, review what we're talking about here. So Doty Swabbed the stain and sent it off for testing. By that point, he and Avis were convinced that at least parts of the emails were based in truth. It seemed like the murder happened in Omaha, so they contacted the Omaha Police Department, and cold case homicide detective Dave Schneider soon joined the investigation. So now we've got another detective Avis and Schneider, the. The. The triple threat against Liz, hopefully.

[B]

I like it. I like the names. They work.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. But in True Detective, there's only two that really know what they're doing. So now it's really ruining my whole. My whole, like, concept in my head. But anyways, we're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back. I feel like people are underestimate how much bad sleep affects literally everything. And I don't anymore, especially now that I'm older. Because you can really tell.

[B]

No, I mean, when you sleep badly, your entire day feels harder.

[A]

Exactly, Exactly. You're tired, sore. For the longest time, I kind of thought, like, this was just normal as you got older, part of not being this young and spry child anymore. But then I switched to Helix a long time ago, actually. And honestly, it changed a lot more than I expected. A simple thing like a mattress to. To change.

[B]

We both have the midnight Lux. We've had them for years. Absolutely love them. Sleep better. I don't feel like I was in a car accident the night before. And as I get older, unfortunately, I really rely on a good night's rest.

[A]

Yeah. And I mean, for me, once again, it was the constant waking up, whether I was overheated or just because I was tossing and turning trying to find a comfortable position. And now that the difference is, I'm not waking up four or five times a night because I'm not tossing and turning. And like you said, we have the midnight Lux. We love it. But helix has over 20 mattress models, because everyone sleeps differently. Whether you sleep on your side, your stomach, your back, there's something designed for the way you sleep.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And they're going to give you this little quiz, which is really quick, really easy, because it's just asking you those simple things, like, are you a side sleeper? Are you a back sleeper? Do you like a firmer mattress? Do you like a softer mattress? So they're really going to. To suggest the model to you that's tailored best to the way you sleep.

[B]

Yeah. And by the way, this time of year, especially with summer coming, the cooler option upgrade is an amazing thing to do if you're someone who sleeps warm. This is definitely for you.

[A]

And like I said, they make the whole process super easy. That quiz, it takes a few minutes, then you get free shipping right to your door. Super easy to set up on your own. Plus a 120 night sleep trial and a limited lifetime warranty on all their models. So there's really no pressure to sort of buy it. And then you're like, I'm stuck with this, so I don't really want to make that purchase because I'll be stuck with it. No, you have 120 nights to sleep on it.

[B]

So if you're looking to upgrade your sleep, go to helixleep.com crimeweekly for 27 off site wide. Again, that's helixsleep.com crimeweekly For 27 off site wide.

[A]

So then on February 21, less than two weeks after Schneider joined up with Dodie and Avis, Amy and Dave were at home when a rock suddenly came crashing through the dining room window. Now, the hidden GPS tracker on Liz's vehicle placed her at the scene, and she was arrested for that offense sense, thank God. Finally. And she quickly pleaded guilty. She paid a fine and was released. But did anybody ask her, like, why are you harassing and stalking the woman that shot you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Even so, detectives knew things were escalating and that Amy and Dave were in real danger. So they moved quickly to secure multiple search warrants. One for Liz's new home in Persia and another for Todd Butterbaugh's house. Todd was also placed on administrative leave. Now, he and Liz had already broken up and no one believed he was involved. But detectives wanted to make sure. Everything completely above board. As the investigation moved closer to an arrest on February 25, detectives executed the search warrants while Liz was at work. Nothing significant was found at Todd's house, but at Liz's place, investigators recovered multiple LG cell phones, a Sony video camera, a Nikon digital camera, and several memory cards. Everything was seized as evidence, and Anthony Cava immediately began going through it. While Liz was still at work, Detective Schneider arrested her, though not for murder. Instead, she was taken into custody over a traffic inf direction. Once at the station, Schneider began questioning Liz about Carrie. And Liz repeated the same story she had told before. She barely knew Carrie. She'd only met her once in passing. Then Schneider turned the conversation around and made it clear how serious things had become. I'd be mad if I was Avis and Doty because I'd want to be the person, you know, to be like, haha, Liz, we have you. So Schneider said Quote, you're in very serious position here. For almost four years now, this woman's son hasn't had his mom. A mom hasn't had her daughter, end quote. Liz immediately cut him off and said, quote, I know. That's why I'm concerned, too, because I'm just like, she's missing and for her family, end quote. So Schneider stopped her, cut her off, and he began laying out the evidence detectives had against her. But no matter what he brought up, Liz denied everything. If he mentioned the photo of Carrie's vehicle found on her phone, Liz claimed she'd never seen Carrie's car. If he brought up evidence showing someone using Todd's IP address to impersonate both Carrie and Amy, Liz said it was impossible because she didn't even have Internet access. Eventually, Liz said she was done talking and wanted an attorney. After resolving the unpaid traffic issue, she was released. So the investigation continued, with Anthony Kava digging through the electronics recovered from Liz's apartment. On one of the LG phones, he found evidence that it had been used to call Carrie's mom after Carrie disappeared. Then, on one of the memory cards, Kava recovered a deleted video of Carrie taken before she vanished. Around the same time, detectives searched a storage unit where Nancy, Carrie's mom, had moved some of Carrie's belongings. And there they found owner's manuals for the exact Sony camcorder and Nikon camera recovered from Liz's apartment, along with store receipts showing that Carrie had purchased both items shortly before she disappeared. So when we say a video of Carrie taken before she vanished, we don't mean like. Like, in a weird way, as in Liz took the video of Carrie. We mean, like, Carrie bought these.

[B]

This video camera, and this camera, like a family video.

[A]

She was taking pictures and videos of herself and her family and stuff. So they're hers. So, yes, Liz must have been at her house. So detectives kept digging and turned their attention to car's financial records. They revisited the two debit card purchases made on November 16th after Carrie disappeared. One at Family Dollar and one at Walmart. Now, Family Dollar no longer had records dating back to 2012, but Walmart did. So the purchases included winter clothes, cleaning supplies, and a black and white floral shower curtain. This immediately stood out because when detectives searched Liz's apartment in Persia, they found that exact shower curtain hanging inside her bathroom. So detectives theorized it may have been a trophy for Liz. They believed this because despite moving multiple times, including when she moved in with Todd, Liz had taken the curtain with her every single time. It was Something innocuous that she could look at every day and remember what she did to carry sick individual. Yeah. So. And I wonder what. What she did with the shower curtain. Right. Was the shower curtain used to wrap Carrie's body in, and then you took it and you hung it so that you could. That would really make you remember it. We'll see. So after detectives linked the shower curtain to Liz, the DNA testing on the blood recovered from Carrie's vehicle came back as a match to Carrie. At that point, investigators felt they finally had enough evidence to charge Liz with murder. They still were not entirely sure what happened to Carrie, but detectives strongly suspected she was intercepted at Dave's apartment by Liz. Liz had a key and could have entered while Carrie was in the shower. But they did not rule out other possibilities either. Liz had a key. Just let that sink in. Liz had a key to Dave's apartment, but Dave was telling her he didn't want to be serious, and he didn't really see her like that. But she's got a key to his apartment. And you know this.

[B]

Yeah. So she could have got the drop on her while she was inside the apartment or waited till she left. Or like you suggested, she could have been sitting in the. In the. In the truck.

[A]

Truck.

[B]

If the truck was unlocked.

[A]

But you as Dave, know that Liz has a key. Okay. And you know that she's showing up when you have this other. And now you know you have this other girl staying at your apartment. And I'm not saying that Dave would have thought, oh, Liz is going to go in and kill Carrie. But you knew she showed up when you had Carrie there the first date.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You knew she'd done things like that before. Is that maybe time to get the key back or change the locks?

[B]

And on a personal note, he doesn't want a relationship with Liz, but he's giving her the key to his apartment, which completely contradicts. Mix the whole. This isn't going to be serious.

[A]

Now, I'm not saying that Liz would not have, you know, interpreted things the way she wanted to, regardless of what they said or did.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

But these are mixed signals.

[B]

No doubt.

[A]

So maybe also Liz confronted Carrie as she was getting into her car. Maybe she pretended to be sick and asked Carrie for a ride home. They just weren't sure of how that all culminated. All they knew for certain was that literally, Liz was responsible. So on December 22, 2016, Liz was taken into custody and charged with first degree murder. At her arraignment, her attorney argued that Carrie was Not dead, let alone murdered. He pointed to the fact that no body had been found, there were no murder weapons, and there was no witnesses. Because of that, he argued the charges should be dropped. He also claimed Liz barely knew Carrie and had long since lost touch with Dave Cave. Is that why you just threw a rock through his window?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The attorney said, quote, she only saw this lady one time, just for a few seconds. There wasn't any argument, end quote. Liz entered a plea of not guilty and her bond was set at 5 million. So clearly the judge was like, yeah, I think there's something here to this. Right?

[B]

Yeah. This. This lawyer is about to be in for a big surprise.

[A]

Yeah. I wonder if the lawyer was even like, you know, familiar with the case before they took it on.

[B]

On might have been like a public defender that was assigned it maybe a couple days before. Because when he gets the discovery packet, he's gonna probably change his tune.

[A]

Yeah. He's like, how do you know Carrie? And Liz is like, I only saw her for a few minutes. And he goes, judge, she only saw her for a few minutes. Was. He doesn't really know what's going on here. But there was later a second degree arson charge that was added. And during both arraignments, Liz waived her right to a jury trial and instead requested a bench trial. And we just talked about that with Mackenzie Shrilla. Right. And it's kind of funny because this was obviously not plan. It does almost come to this, like, delusional belief that you are. It's going to be easier for you to convince one person, AKA a judge, than it is for you to convince, like a jury of your peers. But I don't. I don't know if that was going to work out for either Mackenzie or Liz.

[B]

No. I also think there's a. This delusional optimism that they both display where they feel like maybe they have the ability to manipulate someone one on one.

[A]

Yeah. Just one person. Maybe more people like, you know, you've already done it.

[B]

Do you also think it could be that they kind of understand, even though they lack complete self awareness, that maybe they know they're unlikable and they. And they don't want to risk it with a jury of their peers who are going to be like, wow, this person's delusional.

[A]

I think that they are good with people one on one. Because on one on one, you can say something, but then you can say it to a different person who you don't think is going to talk to that person. Person. You can say something Completely different. And you're like, the. The two shall never meet. So I don't really have to keep up with like much. You know, I don't have to really, like, do it. A lot of checks and balances. So you're just sitting in front of one judge, one person that you have to thoroughly manipulate and convince that you're a victim here instead of a larger group of people who are going to then go and confer with each other and talk to each other about it. It's just one person. And you. You feel like you have a better chance with that when you're a manipulative person like Mackenzie or Liz.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. It's definitely this confidence that is not warranted, but they both have it.

[A]

But listen, Liz's attorney later said, I. I wanted the case tried before Carrie's body could ever be found. So I wanted this to happen quick.

[B]

Yeah. So it's kind of body homicide is a lot harder to prove.

[A]

It's kind of like the attorney maybe was like, I know my client. Client's guilty as. Yeah, right.

[B]

Yeah. Wouldn't be the first time that a defense attorney knew their client was guilty.

[A]

For the prosecution, the bench trial actually worked in their favor. I think it often does. And I say that because now they would not have to present this incredibly bizarre case to a jury and hope people could follow it and believe something this unbelievable had really happened. The prosecutor later reflected on the case and said, quote, this was by far the most difficult case I've ever tried. Most homicides are dark. Dark. This one was bizarre to the point where it would take something convincing to make somebody believe that it had actually happened. There's no way that someone would let their dog die in a fire that they started. There's no way that someone would shoot themselves in the femur. End quote. But there is. We have. We have discovered that. I found the dog thing hard, too.

[B]

Have you met Liz yet?

[A]

Yeah. Hello to Liz. She calls her own children ugly to make a point.

[B]

No, but it does make sense looking on the surface. Right. Like, it's going to be hard to convince an entire jury that this woman would do all. All these horrible things to herself. But that's looking at it from a rational perspective. And I've said this before, sometimes it's hard to rationalize the irrational. And that would be the case here. So you have to try to take that entire jury and put them in the mind of a person who is clearly not there. And that. And that can be difficult.

[A]

Yes, I agree. Yeah. I mean, it was difficult for us.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. As we were going through it, we were like, no, would she really? Was she really let her dogs. Maybe that wasn't intentional. Maybe she. No.

[B]

This is all deliberate.

[A]

We project our own morality onto others, and that's the hard part when it comes to really understanding, like, what evil lives in somebody. So the investigation continued. And In February of 2017, Dave found a tablet with an SD memory card that Liz had access to while they were dating. So he turned it over to the police, and Anthony Kava started looking into it. And Cava found no active files on the card, but he was able to Recover more than 13, 000 deleted photos and text messages. Now, the tablet itself did not have texting capabilities, which led Kava to realize the SD card must have been used in another device. And eventually he matched the card to Liz's cell phone, the same phone police downloaded data from back on January 8, 2013. So the files detectives could not access at that time were suddenly available. And they included some incredibly damning evidence, which we are going to talk about when we come back from our last break. You know what's weird about habits? Half the time, you don't even realize you're doing them. It's unconscious. It's just become ingrained in you.

[B]

Yeah, it's muscle memory.

[A]

Exactly. Especially with smoking and vaping. It's not just the nicotine at some point, it's the routine, that hand to mouth motion, the little pause, having something to reach for when you're struggling, stressed or bored even. And honestly, that is the thing that makes it really hard to break.

[B]

Yeah. That's why fume is such an interesting idea when you really think about what it does for you and how it helps break that habit loop.

[A]

Yeah. It's a flavored air device designed to help people quit smoking or vaping by interrupting that habit loop. There's no nicotine, no batteries, no vapor. It's just this really cool, like, weighted, twisty, fidget friendly device that gives your hands and brain something else to focus on when cravings hit.

[B]

Yeah, and I have it right here. If you're watching on YouTube, you can see it. If you're listening, you might be able to hear it. But real wood, real metal, it's got that weighted design, like Stephanie was saying. It's got the magnets, then you got the clicking motion.

[A]

Oh, I love that.

[B]

I try not to do it when recording, but if you really pay attention, sometimes you'll catch it in my hand. I just. It's something to keep me Occupied while I'm listening to Stephanie.

[A]

And I love that the flavors are really light bites. It's not like sickeningly sweet or heavy or sticky. They're more like flavored water compared to soda. Crisp mint is the strongest flavor, especially if you're a heavier user. You have been in the past, but raspberry, that's kind of like my go to. You know, I love the creamsicle one.

[B]

I talked about that orange vanilla, that's my personal vanilla.

[A]

But I call it Creamsicle because it tastes exactly like a cream.

[B]

It does. It's exactly like a creamsicle.

[A]

We love fume for so many reasons. Don't just try to quit. Upgrade your habit loop. Reach for fume instead. And fume has already helped over 700, 000 steps toward better habits. Now it's your turn. Use our Code Crime Weekly to get a free gift with your journey pack. Head to trif.com that's t y fum.com and use code Crime Weekly to claim your free gift today. So we're back and we're talking about the SD card that that Liz left in Dave's tablet. And like, yeah, she deleted the things, but once again, you were living with and dating an IT guy. You probably should have known that there's a possibility those things could be recovered. But like I said, damning evidence. So several of the recorded images appeared to show a blue and gray silver tarp, just like the one mentioned in the emails about what had happened to Carrie. Another photo showed what looked like a. A flesh colored object with a yin yang symbol on it. And Cava compared the symbol in the image to a photo of the matching yin Yang tattoo Carrie had on her hip. And they appeared highly consistent. So another image showed a flesh colored object with a Chinese symbol on it. And Carrie was known to also have the Chinese symbol for mother tattooed on her left foot. So Cava compared the image to photos of Car's tattoo, and again, they were consistent, believing the image may show Car's decomposing foot. Detectives consulted a forensic pathologist, and after reviewing the image, the pathologist agreed it was a decomposing foot. Though from the photo, the pathologist couldn't determine how long the remains had been decomposing. So understand what this means?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It doesn't look like. At least if. If Liz did any burning of the body, it doesn't look like it was a complete burn. And Liz put Carrie somewhere that she went back to.

[B]

Yeah. And took photos. Yeah, it doesn't look like she burned at least her entire body. And if. If there's decomposition, it can happen. It can happen relatively quickly, depending on the conditions it's in. But it's not going to happen in a couple hours.

[A]

No. So either you put her somewhere and then moved her.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Or you put her somewhere and then went back.

[B]

Yeah. This was after the fact. I have no doubt in my mind she returned to wherever Carrie was. There's no doubt she, in a way, kept Carrie as the trophy. She wanted to go back.

[A]

Yeah. She's taking pictures. So obviously she took a picture of

[B]

her fatheralize her work. Yeah. This is a really, really sick individual. Obviously, we knew that from the jump. But this isn't just a crime of passion. There's a lot more going on here, here.

[A]

So finding these images was a huge win for the prosecution, as it would now be easier to prove at trial that Carrie was killed and that the person who wrote the emails about how the murder occurred, AKA Liz, was, to some extent at least, telling the truth. So it's a no body crime, but still, photographic evidence of a dead body.

[B]

Yep. A dead body believed to be, at minimum, the foot of the person you're looking for for.

[A]

So in May of 2017, just a few months after detectives recovered those photos, Liz's bench trial began in Omaha, Nebraska. Over several days, prosecutors argued Liz was a, quote, diabolical and cruel woman, obsessed with Dave and unwilling to let him date other women. I would have described her a lot more in harsh terms. Diabolical and cruel is. Is scratching the surface of what Liz is. She's a banana nut sundae with extra nuts. Like she's crazy. So according to the prosecutors, Liz killed Carrie, then spent years pretending to be her while harassing multiple people and committing crimes, including arson, to cover up the murder. Prosecutors also argued that the emails Liz sent while posing as Amy were actually confessions. Her own words describing the motive, manner, and mindset behind Carrie's murder.

[B]

Yeah, we talked about this earlier. Literally, a written confession without the need to Mirandize your subject because the subject is pretending to be someone else. It's a loophole. It's a loophole and it's brilliant.

[A]

Yes. So the defense argued the prosecution's case was entirely circumstantial and maintained that Liz was innocent. There was no body, no murder weapon, no eyewitnesses. The defense did concede the blood inside Carrie's vehicle belonged to Carrie, but argued no one knew when it got there or how. So they did not dispute that Liz engaged in strange behavior. Instead, they argued none of it Proved. Proved murder. The defense also stressed that Liz was not on trial for stalking or burglarizing Carrie's home. And beyond that, the defense presented no witnesses and no evidence, and Liz chose to not testify. They relied solely on opening and closing statements centered on the argument that the case was circumstantial. Basically saying, like, you don't have enough. Like, you got some stuff, but you don't have enough to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt. They're playing it safe. I think the defense team is playing it a little safe now. Later, Liz's defense attorney explained why he admitted he initially believed prosecutors had a weak case because Carrie's body had never been found. But his opinion changed as the trial unfolded.

[B]

Yeah, you said that he was going to realize real fast that he's in trouble. His client's in trouble.

[A]

Yeah, He's. He's like, listen. Yes. Was she stalking? Was she sending crazy messages? Was she pretending to be other people? Sure. But that doesn't mean she's dangerous. When in his head, he's like, that is absolutely what it means. That is absolutely what it means. Like, if you brought up a forensic psychiatrist to testify on the mindset of somebody who was able to do all of the things that Liz did, that psychiatrist would say, yes. Somebody who does all of these things definitely and absolutely has the potential to escalate to violence and murder. Yes. Liz's defense attorney said, quote, in my decades of practicing law, it's one of the most powerful presentations of circumstantial evidence that I've ever seen.

[B]

AKA I got my ass handed to me.

[A]

Yeah. He's like, it's circumstantial, but it's overwhelming. So it came as little surprise when the judge ultimately found Liz guilty of first degree murder and second degree arson. sentencing, the judge said, quote, carrie Farver did not voluntarily disappear and drop off the face of the earth. Very sadly, she was murdered. End quote. Now, Liz was sentenced to life in prison for first degree murder and 18 to 20 years for arson to run concurrently. Like, at the same time. Right. Does that concurrently means at the same time?

[B]

Yes. So what's the other one?

[A]

Consecutively is.

[B]

Consecutive would be on top of each other. So if you got 7 and 7, you'd get 14 years concurrent. Means they're running at the same time. So when you start your prison sentence, they're running simultaneously.

[A]

So it's like you got life in prison, and then you got 18 to 20 years for the arson. But since you can't really add 18 to 20 years, onto a life sentence. Yeah.

[B]

You'll be in prison and your 20 year sentence on the arson will run out.

[A]

I don't know if there was, like, a chance that she would be able to get out, but basically, no, because

[B]

even though the arson runs out, you're still in there for murder. Cuz hence it's running concurrent.

[A]

Yeah, but you can appeal. And which she did. Right. Liz later the conviction, once again arguing there was not enough evidence to find her guilty. The conviction was upheld. Child, the court found there was more than enough evidence. Now, how do you think that. How do you think Liz is feeling today about this? You think Liz has come out and been like, I'm taking accountability?

[B]

Absolutely not.

[A]

No. No. To this day, Liz maintains her innocence and claims Carrie's real killer is still out there. Author Leslie Rule later said that Liz sent her letters from prison, including one that said, quote, I will not stop fighting until I am set free and they find the right person. End quote.

[B]

Thanks, Liz. We appreciate it. Liz, don't use Todd's computer.

[A]

Liz is something else, because you'd think she'd want credit at this point. She's like, all right, I'm in life. I'm in prison for life. I kind of want people like it. It's going to be better for me if I somehow find a way to. To, you know, capitalize this, like, show how many puppet strings I was pulling and how long, I mean, two years that I had convinced Dave believe that this woman was stalking him and how I had, like, basically manufactured a bond in a relationship with him based on this. But once again, I wonder if there's some mental health issue here where she literally does something like she's fractured herself so that one part of her can do something and the other part of her can pretend to still be this good person. Like, I would love to see a forensic psychiatrist or two or three analyze her and talk to her. I would love for that to happen. I. I vote for this to happen. So we don't want to end this series on Liz, though.

[B]

Absolutely not.

[A]

We want to bring it back to our true victim, Carrie Farver. And to do that, I want to read part of the prosecutor's closing argument. She said, quote, for years, the defendant portrayed Carrie as a conniving, jealous, obsessed stalker. But all along, it was her. She was all of those things. End quote. Right. So Liz is portraying herself and trying to make it seem like Carrie. But what we know from Carrie, Carrie was nothing like that. Right. Carrie was so chill, so laid back, so focused on herself. And her child and her job and what in the life that she wanted to build and her family and this bond that she had in this very special, rich life that she had. Even though things hadn't always gone the way she'd expected, this was nothing like Carrie. You know, if Carrie and Dave had been dating and then one day Dave got weird and was like, oh, I don't want a relationship. Carrie would have been like, peace. I value myself. I know what I'm worth. I know I'm smart. I know I'm beautiful. I know I'm an awesome caregiver to my son, and I would be a great partner to any man. If you don't want that, then have fun with Liz. Right. With women like Liz. So Carrie would never have done this. And it was Liz the whole time. So then the prosecutor showed a photo of Carrie. And then the prosecutor said, quote, this is the real Carrie Farver. She was a bright, beautiful, hard working mother, sister, daughter, friend, coworker. And her life was violently cut short by this defendant's twisted, obsessive, reprehensible acts of violence. Carrie deserves justice, and so does Carrie's family. End quote. Once again, probably I would be describing Liz in a very different way. I consider this to be just evil. This is like, demonic almost.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is what took you over. This is beyond obsessive. This is just. There's something really. She needs to be studied. She needs to be studied.

[B]

Yeah. I leave this series. It was a great series, by the way. You did an incredible job with it. My big takeaway is that on one hand, a lot of the series was about how crazy Liz was, rightfully so. This is a case I've never come across something like this. This was deep.

[A]

And then I think it's important to show that, though. So if people see this kind of behavior in someone, they can kind of not look at it as innocent.

[B]

But I also like how you highlighted how investigators solved it. There was a lot of different tactics used. There was some problems in the beginning that weren't the fault of the investigators that we talked about later, and they got it right. But my big, big takeaway is Carrie's family. Her mom, her son Max. And the fact that even though we're sitting here, what, 14 years later. Right? 14 years later. 14 plus years later, and we still don't have Carrie. She still hasn't been reunited with her family. She hasn't been given. Given a proper burial or cremation, whatever the family believes in. Right. There's still that unknown of where Is she. And there is a person who has the ability to fix that. And unfortunately, it's the person you've talked about this whole series. I truly hope, and I don't. I don't have a lot of hope this is going to happen, but I'm. I'm wishful that at some point Liz will come forward and say, yeah, you know what?

[A]

What?

[B]

I'm going to show you exactly what I did for how long and. And how I got away with it like I did for so long. And tells everyone where Carrie currently is.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

Because they can still go back there. They can still recover whatever remains are there and reunite her with her family so that Max and. And the rest of her family know that she's now with them and they can. They can remember her in that way, not thinking that she's still out there somewhere waiting to be found.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, that is weird. Like, it's like Liz was so dumb in some ways, but also so good at covering her tracks in other ways.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The body's never found. You know, what happened? Like, where did it take place? They were never really able to, because she wouldn't admit to it. They were never really able to state all of that. There's still so much about this. There's so much about this case we know almost like too much at some point, and then there's still so much that we don't know. And that's very unsettling. And maybe that's why she refuses to come forward and say what happened, because it still gives her this thrill of power that she's withholding Carrie from the people that love her.

[B]

You know, I gotta go back and I apologize, but the photos that were taken of the. Of Carrie's decomposing foot, did you say that was on an SD card or was that a Polaroid?

[A]

So that was an SD card found in a tablet of Dave's that Liz had used and had access to.

[B]

I'm just surprised that there wasn't a way to extract the metadata from that photo to determine when it was taken. And the reason, to me that would be so important was then you could compare it to the cell phone coordinates of. Of Liz's phone, potentially. If she revisited that location, you could go back, you could have subpoenaed her record and determined what this police department,

[A]

and give them some tips.

[B]

I mean, they could have triangulated at least the area where she. It can't be that far. Right. It has to be in close proximity. But if you see her out of place, in that time frame. That's an area you need to focus on. Now, there's a real strong possibility at some point she did go back there and either burn her body or dispose of it in some capacity so that it wouldn't be found. And maybe that's why she's not telling us.

[A]

Us.

[B]

But there's a. There's still a chance that we could find her or at least something to suggest that she was there and, and give that back to her family. That's where my brain is right now. That's the only thread that needs to be pulled a little harder to try to. To try to bring Carrie home. And maybe there's a chance to do it. Maybe someone listening, watching this episode who's involved in the case says, yeah, we

[A]

have so many people who do this stuff. Just like for hobbies that are so good at it, you know, extracting metadata. Like I've seen it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Crime cases all the time.

[B]

There's got to be a way.

[A]

Yeah. That somebody could donate their time or help Carrie's family out.

[B]

They have people. They have people who can do it. I have people who can do it. I mean, we can definitely do that. And the final angle would be just trying to go to Liz and appeal to something in her, to have her remove those self serving perspectives that she basically operates on a daily basis with and say, hey, for one minute, think about Max, think about Carrie's mom. Think about everyone who's still wondering where she is. You can, you can end that suffering right now. I don't know. I don't. I don't think it would work, but. Wishful thinking. Overall, it was a really good story. I'm glad you took the time to go over everything. You proved me wrong. I. I didn't see how this was going to be four episodes, but now I'm almost thinking there could be a fifth part if you really wanted to. This trial must have been something to see.

[A]

Oh, yeah. And I mean, I mean, it's a bench trial, so it's not even like they're putting out all this evidence, really. It's just. Yeah, I, I mean, I would be curious as to what's happened since. And if Carrie's family has like enlisted the help of private detectives or other people to track down her body. I'm sure they have. And I feel like there would be ways to do it or. Yeah. Like you said, the metadata would be the obvious first place to start.

[B]

The metadata in the photo compared to the locations of her phone at those times. Times there's got to be a way. There's got to be a way to say, hey, you know what? She visited this, like, wooded area on multiple occasions around this date and time that that photo was taken.

[A]

It doesn't metadata have geographical, like, coordinates?

[B]

Some of it does. I. But we're talking 2012. It may not have a longitude and longitude, but overall, you're still going to have a date and time that the photo was taken as long as the iPad was set up. And I'm assuming it was. Or this tablet, maybe not an iPad.

[A]

Well, there was a. So it was a tablet that she took the SD card of her phone and put it in the tablet. So it looks like she downloaded all that stuff off her phone onto the SD card and then put it in the tablet, which at that point, because she's giving her phone to the police. So at that point, you're giving your phone to the police. So you don't want them to see the pictures of car's decomposing body, so you put them on an SD card instead of just erasing them. And that shows you she wanted these things. And then she puts them in a tablet of Dave's that she's using so she can look at them again. And you're gonna tell me this is just reprehensible and, like, obsessive? No, this woman is crazy. She's evil.

[B]

And because it was on a phone, it's definitely. The metadata is absolutely gonna contain date and time and maybe, like you said, the coordinates. But I would imagine, based on the thorough job that Dodi and Avis did, if that were the case, they would have found her. I mean, I have to believe that there was something more to the story. We don't know. However, it's not a problem to mention it, so we'll throw it out there. Maybe something resonates with someone or they think of a different angle to go here. But overall, appreciate you covering the case. We appreciate you guys being here with us for this entire series. If you like what we're doing over here and you haven't already, please, like, comment. Subscribe. If you're watching on YouTube, head on over to Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Leave a review. We really appreciate that as well. It helps people see what we're doing over here, gives us more exposure to. To someone who hasn't discovered us yet. And also, if you're already subscribed, double check it, because we've been getting a lot of comments again, that people are like, hey, I had to go hunting for your episodes because they weren't popping up. So take a second. Do that. We would greatly appreciate it. We're going to be back next week with a new series. Until then, everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you soon.

[A]

Bye. Thank you, Sam.