Cari Farver | The Hoax That Hid a Murder (Part 2)

Summary

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Crime Weekly - Cari Farver | The Hoax That Hid a Murder (Part 2)

Hosts: Stephanie Harlowe & Derrick Levasseur
Date: May 22, 2026

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Episode Overview

In Part 2 of their deep dive into the Cari Farver case, Stephanie and Derrick unravel the chilling complexities of a case where a simple missing persons report hid a far more sinister reality. Building on Part 1, the hosts detail the manipulations, investigation missteps, digital deception, and eventual major break in the case. With characteristic candor and professional insight, they dissect how an obsessed woman weaponized digital technology, emotional bonds, and police oversight to conceal a murder—while terrorizing numerous people for years.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. [00:52] Recap of the Case and Key Relationships

• Cari’s Background: Cari Farver had a stable life, raising her son Max and recently securing her dream job as a computer programmer.
• Network of Relationships:
  • Cari meets Dave Krupa, quickly starting an intense, albeit casual relationship.
  • Dave is also seeing Liz (Shayna Elizabeth Goiler), who becomes increasingly possessive as he grows closer to Cari.
  • Tensions escalate with Liz refusing to let go, and Dave not enforcing boundaries.

"From the moment they met, there was this really strong connection. And within days, they were spending nearly all of their time together. Now, at the same time, Dave was still entangled with another woman. Liz...who had already made it clear she wanted more from him than she was willing to give." — Stephanie [01:21]

2. [05:00-14:00] Immediate Aftermath of Cari’s Disappearance & Problematic Police Response

• Cari Disappears (Nov 13, 2012): Dave saw her that morning, but she never arrived at work and began sending out-of-character messages.
• Red Flags Ignored: Despite pleas from her mother, Nancy, police initially view Cari as a voluntary missing person rather than a potential crime victim.
• Key Failure: Detective Phillips relies on texts and phone pings, assuming evidence of life, but never insists on a voice confirmation.

"The messages. Yes. They're being sent, but they don't sound like Carrie." — Stephanie, paraphrasing Nancy [06:45]

• Liz’s Manipulations Begin: Provides police with a “stolen checkbook” story and conveniently sourced incriminating texts allegedly from Cari, which begin implicating her in stalking and theft.
• Critical Police Oversights: Investigators accept digital communications at face value without verification, allow contradictory stories, and miss chances to triangulate the truth or escalate urgency.

“Why not just say, Kerry, I will close this case immediately. Call me. I don’t care if you read from the phone book.” — Stephanie [11:46]

3. [16:39-23:45] The Rising Storm: Accelerating Digital Abuse

• Thousands of Messages: Dave and Liz begin receiving dozens—later hundreds—of threatening texts and emails from accounts linked to Cari. The level of harassment escalates in volume and intensity.
• Wider Target Pool: Dave’s ex Amy and other women he dates are also targeted, with messages adapting to developments in Dave's dating life.
• Manipulation Tactics: Stalker uses intimate knowledge to stay "one step ahead," creating a constant sense of fear and paranoia.

"Liz likes being a stalker. I think she's like, I can't do it from...my own face and my own name. But I'm really having fun cosplaying as Carrie..." — Stephanie [16:29]

• Exploration of Similar Cases: Comparison to real cases of parental or romantic digital harassment, noting the twisted sense of empowerment stalkers can derive from “cosplaying” another identity.

4. [23:45-31:00] Ignored Red Flags and Missed Opportunities

• Carrie’s Absence from Major Life Events: Missing her father's funeral and her son's birthday—behavior totally inconsistent with her known character.
• Nancy’s Pursuit: Carrie's mother files for legal guardianship, posts legal notices, continues pressing police with evidence, all to no avail.

“If I’m Phillips at this point, I’m running all of her credit cards, her bank accounts, anything that has her name on it.” — Derrick [25:48]

• Detective Derrick Weighs In: Outlines police technology options (phone pings, administrative subpoenas), but such measures weren’t used here.

5. [31:00-47:00] Escalation: Staged Crimes, Social Media Imposture, and Further Vandalism

• Faked Kidnappings and Threats: Stalker sends staged photos (e.g., Liz allegedly bound in a car trunk), fake Facebook pages are set up as Cari, complete with engagement announcements and threatening posts.
• Nancy’s Persistence: She spots inconsistencies—like the wrong hand in a “Carrie” photo—which police again downplay.
• Fake Stalker Activities: Messages become ever more menacing, including threats toward children. The sick logic of manufacturing real-world events (vandalism, arson) and digital evidence to further the façade.

"I have answered enough questions to prove myself...I am not missing. I just don't want to come home right now." — (Quote from fake Carrie Facebook post) [44:46]

• The Cycle: Every time Dave tries to distance himself from Liz, more “Cari” attacks occur, which prompt them to reconnect in trauma bonding.

6. [47:00-61:00] The Investigation Deepens—Financial, Forensic, and Digital Clues

• Max’s Test: Carrie’s son messages the fake account with questions only his mother would know—no answer comes, confirming the deception.
• Arson and Animal Deaths: Liz’s home is set on fire (with her own pets killed)—she and Dave both receive emails from “Cari” confessing.

"Killed her own pets. Unforgivable." — Stephanie [62:35]

• Vehicle Discovery & Mishandling: Dave finds Carrie’s car; it’s suspiciously clean, and the only fingerprints are unidentified, but police treat it only as a stolen vehicle, not as evidence in a homicide.

"Somebody wiped the car down...The only fingerprints found in the Ford Explorer were on a mint case...and they were not Carrie's." — Stephanie [41:07]

7. [61:00-73:00] Digital Forensics and Final Breakthrough

• Stagnation until 2015: Police neglect persists until Detectives Avis and Doty volunteer for the case, finally launching a thorough review with a digital forensics expert, Anthony Kava.
• Forensic Revelations:
  • Photo of Carrie’s car on Liz’s phone, taken after Carrie disappeared but before it was discovered—impossible without involvement.
  • Metadata shows “kidnapping” photos sent from a phone of the same model owned by Liz.
  • Video uploaded to YouTube (from an account in Carrie’s name) traced to Todd Butterbaugh—a sheriff's office IT employee—and long-term partner of Liz!

"Now we might be unraveling something...someone in the sheriff's office who's cozying up with Liz. And...helping Liz harass Dave so that Liz can be in a relationship with Dave?" — Stephanie [80:11]

• The Web Unspools: Detectives find that Liz has a secret partner (Butterbaugh) and likely inside help, and that she was never a victim—instead, she orchestrated the entire campaign, possibly even Carrie’s murder.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Stephanie on Police Failure

“What they needed to solve this case was an investigation.”
[77:17]

Derrick's Frustration with Law Enforcement

“The fact that this woman allegedly has set people's houses on fire, she's sending people pictures of knives, sending pictures of the kids saying they deserve to die. This is somebody you want to find. This is an arsonist, one way or the other.”
[69:39]

Stephanie on Toxic Dynamics

“All Liz is doing, if you think about it, is inflating Dave's ego more because now he's under the impression, like, man, I started dating Liz, she went crazy. I started dating Carrie, she went crazy. These women can't get enough of me. Every woman I get close to all of a sudden just thinks I'm Brad Pitt.”
[56:42]

Revelatory Turn—The Butterbaugh Bombshell

“Todd Butterbaugh works in the Sheriff's Office IT department... and he'd been dating the same woman for years. And that woman was none other than Liz.”
[80:14]

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Important Timestamps

• [00:52] Recap and Relationships

• [06:45] Mother’s Insight Ignored by Police

• [16:39] Stalking Escalates; Parallels to Other Cases

• [23:45] Max’s Test & Emotional Impact

• [31:00] Fake Kidnapping & Social Media Imposture

• [41:07] Carrie's Car Discovered, Cleaned of Evidence

• [62:35] Arson & Death of Liz’s Pets

• [70:59] Detectives Avis and Doty Take the Case

• [79:42] Forensic Breakthrough—Liz’s Secrets Revealed

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Tone and Language

Stephanie and Derrick’s tone is direct, irreverent, occasionally darkly humorous, but always rooted in empathy for victims and a critical lens toward investigative failures. They blend personal opinions, professional expertise, and natural conversation, making complex details accessible and human.

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Conclusion & Teaser for Part 3

Detective work—at last—peels back the layers of a hoax so elaborate it fooled police, family, and even the primary targets for years. As the episode closes, Liz's web of lies, technological manipulation, and a potential inside man set the stage for the next chapter: not only did Liz terrorize Dave and those around him, she likely orchestrated far more than harassment—a murder hidden in plain sight.

“Liz was not a victim of anything. She was the one impersonating Cari. She was the one stalking herself and Dave. She was the one vandalizing property, setting things on fire. She was behind it all.”
— Stephanie [81:05]

Stay tuned for Part 3, where the full evil of the case—and Liz's expanding list of victims—comes to light.

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

[B]

And I'm Derek Lavasser.

[A]

So today we are diving into part two of the Carrie Farver case. And we had pre recorded ahead. So it's actually been what, like, has it been a whole week since we filmed or has it been more?

[B]

Yeah, you posted your little vacation thing. Well, it's been two weeks technically, because we record on Mondays.

[A]

And I have been thinking about this case and I couldn't wait to get in here and record today because I think we, we are having good conversations about it and it's all important stuff. And this case, if possible, just gets twistier.

[B]

So that's why when you said there's more to come, I'm like, wait, we. We're only on episode one.

[A]

I know.

[B]

And it was like so many, but.

[A]

Okay, you're not gonna believe it. You're not gonna believe it. So as a quick kind of recap, Carrie Farver had built a life that she was proud of. She was raising her son Max, with the support of her family. Carrie's family's great. She had just landed her dream job as a computer programmer. And for the first time in a long time, things felt stable for her. Then in the fall of 2012, she met Dave Krupa on Plenty of Fish. And, well, she didn't meet him on Plenty of Fish. She met him at the mechanic shop, and then she found him on Plenty of Fish. And then what started as a casual connection quickly turned something more. They had a good vibe. They connected. Now, Dave had just gotten out of a long relationship, had kids. Then he started dating this other woman, Liz, who was a lot. And he wasn't looking for anything serious. And Carrie felt the same way. You know, they were just trying to have fun. But from the moment they met, there was this really strong connection. And within days, they were spending nearly all of their time together. Now, at the same time, Dave was still entangled with another woman. She Shayna Liz Goiler, who had already made it clear she wanted more from him than she was willing to give. And as Dave pulled away from Liz and grew closer to Carrie, the situation became more complicated. Liz refused to let go, and Dave didn't really force her hand either. Now, Liz's behavior became more intense, more persistent, harder to ignore. And then on November 13, 2012, 37 year old Carrie Farver went missing. Now, Dave saw her at his apartment that morning before he left for work. But Carrie never made it into the office. Instead, her phone began sending messages that didn't sound like her now. By November 16, Carrie's mother, Nancy knew something was wrong. She reported her daughter missing. The next day, Nancy received a text from Carrie's phone that included a picture of a five thousand dollar check I remember as a starter check, along with a request to let a buyer into car's home to pick up some furniture. Nothing about it made sense. But despite the red flags, police did not see it as concerning and did not take immediate action, leaving Nancy alone and searching for answers. So that's where we're at now.

[B]

Yeah, I mean the whole thing. And then you're gonna go into the recommendation for the job and.

[A]

Yeah. And then Dave and Liz rekindling over allegedly Carrie harassing them both.

[B]

Yeah, the, the. The whole Dave thing. And he was getting. He was getting crushed in the comments. Rightfully so. I mean, the guy.

[A]

Yeah. Except for one guy who I had to tell off this one guy.

[B]

He was like, I didn't even see that.

[A]

Yeah, like I'm going to call you out, my dude, because you have a problem. And as I told you in the

[B]

comments, what was the comment?

[A]

You should be on some sort of list. He was like, why is it the man's. While he left like 5 comments. And I was like, don't go. Get a hobby, dude.

[B]

Yeah, dude, at that point just like block him.

[A]

He was like. He was like, why is it the man's fault? And then he was like, it's not his fault. He's going to take sex when it's offered because taking it when it's not offered is illegal.

[B]

Is that. Is that how he sounds? It looks.

[A]

That's what he said. Yeah, that's what he sounded like to me. Okay. In my head, like an actual caveman. If a caveman could speak. And I was like, you should be on a list somewhere. I hope you are. You are a walking red flag, my dude. This is like your 5th comment. Yes. Taking sex when it's not offered is not only illegal, but it's immoral and it's wrong. It's you effing creep. And then YouTube was like, are you sure you want to post this? And so I removed the effing but left the creep. You're a creep, dude. You're a creep.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, go somewhere. I had said in the previous episode with Dave that I appreciated the fact if it's exactly what. What's it's being portrayed to be that he was transparent with people and let them know that he didn't want a relationship. But to me, it felt like, he wanted a relationship until they wanted one, and then he didn't. I don't know.

[A]

Well, he wanted the attention. He wanted the validation.

[B]

He wanted the attention. He wanted all the things that came with it. He just didn't want. Want the commitment. I don't know. Because you can't say to someone. Actions speak louder than words, Right? So you can't say to someone, I don't want to be in a relationship, but treat it as a relationship.

[A]

I know. Or just keep it going. You know, like, let me drop your pots and pans off. Let's have sex. You jumped on me. I have no choice.

[B]

Yeah, fight her off. Stephanie. Nah.

[A]

Get out of here.

[B]

The victim.

[A]

I wonder if it's Dave under a

[B]

pseudonym that I, I. If I could see all the real people behind these comments. There's no doubt in my mind that over the last five years, we've had people that we've discussed 100% in our comments defending themselves.

[A]

Casey Anthony, for sure.

[B]

Yeah, there's definitely others or family members, you know, defending them for sure.

[A]

Or. But either way, this guy was an absolute creep.

[B]

So I missed it.

[A]

I wonder if he responded back. He left, like, 17 comments. I don't know how you missed it,

[B]

but I don't know how I missed it. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so we're caught up. On Monday, November 19, Carrie's Missing Persons case was assigned to Deputy Sheriff Randall Phillips. And he started his investigation by speaking with her supervisor and co workers. So they told him that when they last saw Carrie, which was on Monday, May 12, nothing seemed wrong. As they walked to their cars at the end of the day, she smiled, she said she'd see them in the morning, but she never showed up the next day, which was completely out of character for her. Based on that, Deputy Sheriff Randall Phillips decided to do a phone ping on Carrie's phone. And it showed that just one day before, her phone was in a business and residential area a few blocks north of West Center Road and 114th street in Omaha. So Phillips searched the area, but found no sign of Carrie or her Explorer, probably because it was the day before Phillips. So he also learned that There had been 13 texts sent from Cari's phone in the previous 24 hours. And based on that, based on just that, he believed that Carrie was completely fine. So n. That's absolutely insane.

[B]

His name's F. Phillips.

[A]

Yeah, Phillips.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. So Nancy Car's mother, she disagreed, obviously. She kept telling Phillips and the police, you know, something's wrong. The messages. Yes. They're being Sent, but they don't sound like Carrie.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And she won't call me. So I'm saying call me so I can make sure you're okay. She won't make a phone call. And then Nancy also showed Phillips the picture of the $5,000 check, which he noted was a starter check with no name or address. But it did have a legible signature, one he could make out as belonging to none other than than Shayna Elizabeth Goiler, who we know as Liz. So at this point, Sergeant Phillips and Carrie's mom Nancy, they don't know who Liz even is. So Phillips searched records and found an address that matched the area where Carrie's phone had pinged. So he went to the house, but Liz wasn't there. So he left a message and she returned his call the next day. And when Liz spoke to Phillips, Phillips told Liz that he was looking for Carrie. And Liz said she knew Carrie, but only because they had both dated the same man, Dave Krupa. So she went on to say that Carrie blamed her for Dave breaking things off. And because of that, Carrie had started harassing Liz. So when it came to the five thousand dollar check, Liz claimed there was a simple explanation. Her checkbook had been stolen from her garage. And this happened to be the same time that someone had broken into her garage and spray painted the words from Dave on the wall. So Liz told Phillips that she believed Carrie was responsible for all of it. To back that up, she showed him a text that had been forward to her from Dave. And the message had come from car's phone and referenced the stolen checkbook. And they read, quote, when I was at Liz's house a few nights ago, I stole a checkbook from her. I wrote a check for $5,000. And because I haven't gone home in a few days, my mom made a missing persons report lol. I think she thinks Liz is involved. I hope she's arrested, then you can't be with her, end quote. Wow, Liz is really a brilliant mastermind here.

[B]

She's full and Phillips.

[A]

So far she's full and Phillips. But that's not saying a lot.

[B]

You know, she's like, that's below bar.

[A]

She's like, listen, someone broke in my garage and spray painted the word and then stole my checkbook. And I think it was Carrie because look at this text message where it says exactly that.

[B]

Yeah, coincidentally so.

[A]

And, but, but of course, why didn't Liz report this right before someone showing up at her house and asking, you know, somebody just sent a text to Dave admitting to have stolen your checkbook and trying to get you, like, arrested, but you just don't think that's worth calling the police or making a report about it. After reading that message, Sergeant Phillips went to speak with Dave and tell him Carrie had been reported missing. And Dave said that surprised him because he had been getting a lot of messages from her, but he hadn't seen her since the morning of the 17th. He told Phillips he would call if she showed up. And based on everything he heard from Liz and Dave, Sergeant Phillips started to believe that Carrie was stalking them, which would explain why her phone had pinged in Liz's neighborhood. When does. Does Sergeant Phillips work for Liz at this point? So not long after that conversation, Phillips received a text from Carrie's phone that said, quote, I don't care about this missing person's report, but I would really appreciate it if you leave Dave Krupa out of it. I will be leaving the state. My mother overreacted. I have been to my house a few times, end quote. So now we have Carrie allegedly texting Sergeant Phillips, who is the police officer assigned to her missing persons case. How did she get his phone number? I mean, maybe he's been calling her phone and leaving messages.

[B]

Maybe he's assuming Dave gave it to her.

[A]

Yeah, maybe. But that's weird, right? Wouldn't you think this is weird? That every time you come across something you can't explain, Carrie herself is texting and explaining it for everyone?

[B]

Yeah, well, I mean, I'm sure this happened. I'm going to give Sergeant Phillips at least this much credit. I'm hoping, and I'm assuming it did happen where he was a little bit more forceful and said, I need to speak with you on the phone, even if it's only for a couple minutes. I need to hear your voice on the phone.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The text messages aren't going to cut it. I need to speak with you. Doesn't have to be in person, but I need to hear your voice.

[A]

But how can you assume someone's missing, not in danger, and stalking two other people when you have yet to hear their. Their voice on the phone?

[B]

Yeah. No, it's unacceptable.

[A]

So he doesn't, you know, insist to hear her voice on the phone? He responds, Philip responds back and says, quote, if you got stopped, even in another state, you will still be held until this matter is settled. End quote. Okay, that's productive.

[B]

Let's at least give credit where credit's due. Not the best approach, I agree, but at least he's not going okay, cool. Thanks for the. Thanks for following up. At least he's, like, trying to. He's doing it the wrong way. But threatening her, like, hey, listen, I don't care what you do. Even if you leave the state until this is rectified, you're going to have to deal with it. So I think it's kind of him indirectly telling her, like, I need to speak with you. We need to settle this. This isn't going to go away.

[A]

But why indirectly? Why not just say, kerry, I will close this case immediately. Call me. I don't care if you read from the phone book. At this point, you don't have to say anything.

[B]

Is it. Is it fair to assume that maybe that conversation was had? Which is why he's saying here, if I don't care where you go, what you do, until this is straightened out, you're going to have to deal with it.

[A]

It sounds like he's just saying, don't get pulled over in another state.

[B]

Okay, I disagree. I think he's saying. I think there's probably either some correspondence or a conversation where he's saying, we need to. We need to handle this. This isn't going to go away. There's possible vandalism here. Whatever it is, I need to speak with you. She's saying, no, no, no, I'm good. I'm leaving or whatever. And he's going, I don't care where you go, even if you go to another state, you're going to get held until this is worked out.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So it's better to deal with it now than than later.

[A]

Well, then a message, another message came to Phillips from car's phone, and it said, quote, dave texted me and said, you had the sheriff at his work. Please stop talking to people. I have nothing to say to anyone. I want one person to go away for destroying everything for me. End quote. Now, here's the weird thing. None of this adds up. So the Phillips talks to Liz, and Liz is like, yeah, I think that Car's mad and stalking us because Dave broke up with her for me. But that's not what happened, because technically, Carrie texted Dave and was like, I don't want to have anything to do with you. Don't call me again. Leave me alone. Right. That. That day that she was allegedly at his apartment when he was the last time. So if the. If Phillips had talked to Dave and had been like, well, why did you break up with Carrie? He would have been like, well, technically, I didn't. You know, she started sending me, like, these Messages out of nowhere after I left her in my apartment and was basically like, don't call me again. We're done. She. She broke up with me, technically, and I didn't break up with her for Liz. So would Phillips go to Dave and be like, hey, did you tell Carrie that I had the sheriff at your work? Right, right. Like, did you let her know that? Like, what conversations are you having with her?

[B]

Yeah. Did you speak to her on the phone?

[A]

Yeah. Is he. Is he checking these stories to go to Dave and be like, hey, Carrie knew that I had the sheriff at your work. Like, did you tell her that? Because I'm sure Dave told his girlfriend Liz that when he comes home from work and he's like, this is crazy with this Carrie thing. The sheriff's at my work. But did Dave tell that to Carrie or who he thinks to be Carrie over the phone? We don't know.

[B]

Yeah, there. There would need to be some follow up here, whether it was done or not. You know, if it's not in the report, it didn't happen. But I would like to think that that conversation was had with Dave where he said, hey, listen, that's fine and dandy. You told her that the sheriffs were there. Okay, cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How did you tell her? Was it over text message, email? Or did you speak to her on the phone? Have you seen her?

[A]

And if you didn't tell her, how does she know that?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then. And then Carrie says, I want one person to go away for destroying everything for me. Once again, this doesn't really check out. Like, even if you're talking about Liz, she didn't destroy everything for you because technically, Liz and Dave didn't get back together until they started both getting harassed by fake Carrie. So.

[B]

Yeah, and I think, like, what you were saying, it just. There's not enough emphasis on it here. Where in this text message, she's saying, dave told me. Right. That is something that needs to be corroborated. So you go to Dave and you ask him, hey, did you speak to her on the phone? But even if you didn't, did you tell her that I went by them?

[A]

No, I didn't.

[B]

No, I didn't. Okay, well, then now I know Carrie's lying.

[A]

Well, I told Liz, you know.

[B]

Yeah, I told Liz. Yeah. Pretty reasonable deduction, right? How many people did you tell or how many people knew that the sheriffs came by your workplace?

[A]

And if she's stalking you, why do you continue having these back and forth conversations with her?

[B]

Right, but he's Going to say, we know his answer, right? 100%. Because at this point, Carrie's already gone. He didn't tell her?

[A]

I don't think so.

[B]

The answer we know now in hindsight is going to be, no, I didn't tell her. Actually, I don't know how she knows. So either Kerry stalking his work or the person who's answering for Carrie is not Carrie. But this is something in the text message Phillips should have followed up with and said, hey, you're full of shit.

[A]

So Sergeant Phillips must not have found any of these messages from fake Carrie concerning because he promptly contacted Liz and told her about the messages and even suggested that she reach out to the Omaha Police Department to file a report for the breakin vandalism and stolen checks, which she should already done. Okay. And Liz did that. And then an investigation was opened. But the messages coming from car's phone didn't stop. They kept coming. Dozens of texts and emails every day. And at first they were filled with jealousy and anger. But over time, they became more threatening. Dave received messages like, we belong together, Dave, my favorite thing to do is stand outside and stare at you, and I hate you so much that I want to drive a knife in your heart. Okay, so I think Liz is kind of channeling what she really. Liz likes being a stalker. I think she's like, I can't do it from. With my own face and my own name. But I'm really having fun cosplaying as Carrie, where I can say whatever I want to my heart's desire.

[B]

And we've seen this before, right? We've seen this before. What was the case that we were covering? Or it was the one where the mom was sending the text messages to the daughter.

[A]

Oh, that. We didn't cover that.

[B]

What did we just watch it? What did we do? And I talk about it.

[A]

Yeah. Remember that? It was on an. It was a Netflix documentary or something or some kind of Hulu.

[B]

I know everyone in the comments is screaming at us right now.

[A]

That was bananas.

[B]

I'll look it up.

[A]

Bullying her own daughter.

[B]

Okay, so it was the unknown number. Yeah, the unknown number. I don't know the names of the people right now, but the unknown number on Netflix.

[A]

Yeah, the mother was harassing the daughter and the boyfriend, I thought, and like, trying to, like, say, like, oh, I want your boyfriend. Weird.

[B]

Yeah. And it went on for a while. And if you guys haven't seen that, this isn't. I know we talked about a Netflix doc, the Crash on Crime Weekly News, but this is another One. Are you sure we didn't cover this?

[A]

Was this on Netflix? I don't. I don't think. Maybe we did in, like, a crime Weekly news or something.

[B]

Maybe we did. I can't remember. I felt like I discussed this with you. I know. I watched the doc.

[A]

We definitely talked about it. Yeah.

[B]

And I'm not a big doc guy, so I feel like I did it for work. But that's an incredible. And then the body cam footage, when they actually reveal to her that there's a separate phone. Insane. Anyways, it feels kind of like that, where you could tell the mom was enjoying doing this at some point. And I think you're right. I think Liz was enjoying this as well.

[A]

Yes, she was. Really? She was getting, like, some sick thrill out of it.

[B]

I also think there's an incentive that it could push that could push her and Dave closer together, which is the ultimate motive.

[A]

Yeah. Like trauma bond, you know, this horrible thing is happening.

[B]

I'm here for you. Oh, she said what today?

[A]

Don't be scared. I'll protect you, Dave.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

All right, we're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. Okay. Can I say something slightly controversial? I think a lot of people are technically working out, but not actually, like, training 100%.

[B]

Like, you're doing random exercises and hoping that something happens and it's not going to work well for you.

[A]

Exactly. So, like, one day it's an Instagram workout, the next day it's some YouTube video. I know somebody who does their workouts. Feel like chat GPT. None of it connects. There's no structure. And that's why when we started using the Ladder app, I know we both were like, wow, this is actually beneficial because it's not random workouts. It's an actual strength training plan that builds on the past one and then, like, leads you into the next one.

[B]

Yeah. And that really is a difference. Like, every workout builds on the last one. And I'm with coach Brian. We were actually in the Vitality Team chat today talking about the workouts. We did a dumbbell workout this morning. I really like it. It's high. It's highly produced. The workouts make sense. I'm someone who's always worked out, so I can kind of tell when it's not really something that's going to benefit me. But there's a structured schedule, and we're building on last week's progress by implementing. Implementing new forms of the same technique. So you're not plateauing. I really enjoy it.

[A]

Yeah. And it's cool because you can do it at the gym or at home. So I'm not somebody that can work out at home because then I just won't. But when you go to the gym, it's like they will tell you, okay, you can use these machines that the gyms have. You get a new plan every week. It's designed by certified coaches using real progressive programming. So instead of starting over every Monday, you're actually building strength over time week after week.

[B]

And it really does feel like you have a trainer working with you. Coach Brian. Like I said, shout out Coach Brian. He's in the chat as well. There's a Vitality Chat that he's in there, he's talking to people. So this isn't some bot that's just kind of giving you a, a standard program. There's a human being behind all of this.

[A]

Yeah, you pop your earbuds in and then you get this in year coaching that walks you through every set with cues, reminders, motivation, talking to you about your, your form and stuff like that. So you're never standing there wondering what you're supposed to do next.

[B]

Yeah, and it tracks everything too. Everything you can think of attracts it.

[A]

Your weights, your reps, your sets. You can actually see progress happening. For me, the biggest change is that I don't waste mental energy anymore. I don' to think about it. I open the app, follow the plan, and I know I'm actually working towards something.

[B]

So remove the guesswork with Ladder and get a real coach in your ear telling you exactly what you need to do every workout. No thinking, everything planned for you. If you have an iPhone, head over to Ladder Fit Crimeweekly and take a quiz to find your perfect ladder plan. Use our link and get a free 7 day trial with no credit card and $10 off your first month if you decide to join and go check it out. Ladder Fit Crimeweekly.

[A]

Okay, we're back. So Carrie is allegedly fake. Harry's texting Dave. She wants to drive a knife through her heart, through his heart because she hates him so much. But also they belong together. But Liz is also receiving messages from Carrie's phone as well, with claims that Liz was a who should stay away from Carrie's man, Dave. Liz and Dave blocked Carrie's number, but it didn't help and they started receiving messages from around 30 different untraceable numbers and 30 email accounts. Many of them were variations of Carrie's name and sometimes Dave's name, like Dave's girl Carrie and Krupa carry 76. So eventually, Dave changed his phone number, but that didn't help either. Surprisingly, somehow his stalker always found a way to track him down. I wonder why. And it wasn't just him and Liz who were being targeted. Dave's ex, Amy, was also dealing with the same thing, as were the women Dave went on dates with. So Dave's still going on dates when he's with Liz.

[B]

Shocker.

[A]

Yeah. Even though she's protecting him from Carrie.

[B]

I will say this. Like, I know we're looking at it and we're like, well, how would Carrie have access? Access to this number? I'm assuming he didn't tell a lot of people. I get it, Liz. Like, it's easy for us to say it, but if there was like, 20 or 30 people who knew this number, you're not going to think off the rip that someone who is, quote, unquote, also a victim is the same. Like, it's so diabolical. I think it's hard to compute.

[A]

And you're also super paranoid at this

[B]

point and you're bonding over it where you're sharing these scary stories. You're not thinking, there's no world where you're like, this woman is the one doing this.

[A]

Yeah. And you're thinking, like, wow, Carrie's everywhere. Like, how is she? How does she know everything?

[B]

That's what you're thinking.

[A]

It's making it scarier.

[B]

And did she hack our phones? That she hack our computer? That's what you're going to think. You and I may think, oh, it could be the other person.

[A]

And she's a computer programmer. Right. So she might have the skills to do that.

[B]

She could pull it off. Yeah. I don't think. I don't think it's fair to say, oh, Dave should have known at this point.

[A]

No, I didn't think he should have known. But I'm saying, like, I wonder. I wonder how.

[B]

No, but I'm sure people in our comments will like, oh, it's so obvious it's Liz. It's not.

[A]

No, that's a hindsight thing. Yeah. Also, this is, like, very specifically targeted because Dave's going on dates with other women. Right. But because he and Liz are being harassed by the same crazy person, they always have a reason to come back together. So if Liz hasn't heard from Dave in a few days and she's like, oh, man, like, he's going on dates. Like, I have to. I have to put a stop to this now. She just text him and she's like, I got Another crazy text, and he's like, me too. And now they're talking and they're commiserating.

[B]

Automatic. It's an automatic open door right back.

[A]

Right. Okay. And Dave is also going to feel probably a little guilty and a little like, like responsible for bringing fake Carrie into Liz's life. So no matter what happened, Carrie seemed to always be one step ahead of Dave and Liz. Now, while all of this was happening, Cari's family remained certain that something wasn't right. She hadn't spoken to anyone directly, not her mother, not even her son, and not her father, Denny, who was dying. So on December 7th, Denny actually passed away. And Carrie did not go to the funeral, which. Which was unfathomable to everybody who knew her. Now, around that same time, Carrie's son Max turned 15. His birthday came and went with no word from his mother, which again, was unfathomable for Carrie and everyone who knew her. This was something no one could wrap their head around. So at this point, Carrie's mother, Nancy, had been caring for carry son Max for nearly a month without hearing from Carrie. And Nancy's attorney suggested that she file for guardianship so someone could legally make decisions for Max. Now, Nancy went through. Through with it, and a notice was placed in the paper requiring Carrie to appear in court. So basically, when somebody abandons their child like this and. And somebody like their parent tries to get guardianship, they're going to put a notice to give you the opportunity to. To stop that from happening if it's not what you want. Right. And Carrie did not show up. So this only added to the growing list of signs that something was wrong.

[B]

Well, I mean, also, she wouldn't have been served, so they wouldn't have been able to serve her. So you would have. I don't know how they would have known she would have if she was around. How would she even know about this court date if there's no proof of service?

[A]

A notice was placed in the paper.

[B]

In the paper?

[A]

Yeah, they do that. They put notices when they can't find you. They'll put a notice in the paper. And I don't know if it's necessarily like, oh, we're definitely going to be able to reach this person. Or if it's like, legally you have to make an attempt. And this is the only way you can when you don't know how to reach this person.

[B]

I mean, also, if I'm Phillips at this point, I'm running all of her credit cards, her bank accounts, anything that has her name on it. To see if there's any activity because how's she surviving? How's she hiding?

[A]

Yeah. I'm also gonna ping her phone again. Right. Like, so far, you only did it once and you saw that it was near Liz's house.

[B]

I would have a warrant for the phone to just have a continuous ping on the phone. So you can triangulate weed, so you can do that. So, yeah, when we were looking for missing people or for a suspect, we had what was called an administrative subpoena. It wasn't a full search warrant, but. But if it's something where there's a risk of life, in particular a child, you can call AT&T or Verizon or T Mobile or anybody and say, hey, we need this right now. And back in the day, I'm talking like 2007. Ish. You could send over administrative subpoena signed by the chief, and they would give you a limited amount of pings, maybe a day or two. They'd give you, like, a 48 hour window where I would get it sent to my phone, and every time there was a ping, it was like, every few minutes it would show me, and it would show it on a map. Now, you probably need a search warrant. The phone companies have tightened up.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

But it's automatic. It's pretty cool. Like, I had my laptop. We have, like, these metal touchbooks, and I would be sitting in the car, and it would just bing, bing. And it would just map it out and plot it, and we would see when they stopped because it would just be at one location, and the ping would just keep hitting the only problem with it. And I'm getting off the tracks a little bit here, is in a densely populated area where there's, like, multiple houses, and where I worked, it was triple deckers, like three families. You'd have it pinged, but it never pinged in the exact same spot. So in that small radius, There was like 17 to 20 houses with three floors in each house.

[A]

But you can. You can get an idea or. Is she still in the state? Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, the fact that she's pinging consistently near one of your quote unquote victims would be something you would want to know and then relate to said victim.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[B]

Hey, Liz, just so you know, your stalker, Carrie, her. Her phone's pinging near your house every day. Be on the lookout.

[A]

Yeah, right. Maybe. Maybe we'll put an officer on patrol in your neighborhood at night so that we can see that there's no Carrie hanging around the House. But. All right, so Carrie misses her father's funeral. She misses her son's 15th birthday. Her mother's trying to get guardianship. She does not show up for any court date. And despite all of this, all right, the police still didn't take Carrie's disappearance seriously. And because of that, there was no media coverage, no alerts, and no effort to get the public involved. Nothing at all. Which is interesting.

[B]

I'm surprised they didn't enter her into ncic. I mean, maybe they did, and we're just not aware.

[A]

I think they did, because, remember, he said, if you get pulled over in any state.

[B]

Yeah. You're gonna get stopped. So I agree. So he. He had her in ntic, but there should have been more effort at that point. It wasn't consistent with her behavior. Missing children. Her children.

[A]

She's got mental health issues, remember? And I think even more of a

[B]

reason you need to find her. She's an endangered person.

[A]

I agree. But I think they're looking at it at this time, like, well, yeah, this makes sense. Somebody with, you know, mental health issues would be doing this.

[B]

These are the times where I'd love to have the officer come forward and speak to us. And I would. I know you would, too. Give him the floor. Give him an opportunity to explain to us the rationale behind not taking this more serious. Because on the surface, hearing it from you sounds awful. Sounds like they didn't do their job. So I do wonder what was going on behind the scenes, if there's something that we're unfamiliar with. Because from what I'm looking at, they could have done a lot more.

[A]

Yeah, he'd probably be like, it was a different time then.

[B]

At that point, we can slam him. Right. But there's something more like, oh, actually, we did do this. Here's the proof of it. Something. But without it, you're opening yourself up to a lot of scrutiny.

[A]

She was an adult. She wasn't on her meds. It was a different time.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, You're. Then that's when I say, okay, Stephanie, get him.

[A]

Yeah, I would get him, but, I mean, it's not even just this guy. It's like the whole police force at this time, like, lackadaisical as hell, man.

[B]

Not only this police department, and this is coming from a former cop on detective Perspect. A lot of the cases I cover there. Missing persons cases specifically. We just did one. Tom Roche. It's coming out this. This week, actually. They just don't do enough in the f. In the early hours of It. And, and that is such a critical time. Like, there's no time like the present to go in there and start to find this person as quickly as you can, because that's the best chance you have at finding them. And so they, they. They operate under this whole premise of, well, we'll wait, we'll give them some time to see if they come back, but by then, if they don't, it's too late.

[A]

It's too late.

[B]

Now you're asked out. So I don't agree with the approach. I know now with the criticism that's come forward, especially with podcasts and YouTube channels. A lot of this is. Is changing for the good, where people are like, hey, to cover our ass, even if that's the only reason they're doing it.

[A]

It.

[B]

They do it just to make sure they don't end up on an episode of Crime Weekly with Derek and Stephanie.

[A]

There was no Crime Weekly back then. It was a different time. All right, so In January of 2013, things with Liz and Dave's stalker air quotes escalated again. Just after midnight on January 6th, Dave received an email from one of Carrie's new email addresses. And attached to it was a photo of a woman in the trunk of a car with duct tape over her mouth. And the message said the woman was Liz, but her face was turned in a way that made it impossible to clearly identify her. So now Liz is in danger. Dave has to come to the rescue and realize how important Liz is to him when he thinks she could possibly be in danger. Now, the email said, quote, you will do exactly as I say, and then I will let her go. You will dump Liz and you will start seeing me again, end quote. The email instructed Dave to call Liz and break up with her through a voicemail. Liz would then play that message for her kidnapper, proving he that Dave had followed the instructions and she would be released. But if he didn't do those things, Liz would die. Now, Dave didn't believe the email's claims. He thought the woman in the photo kind of looked like Liz, but it could have just as easily been someone else. So to be sure, he texted Liz to check on her. And when she didn't respond right away, he had a moment of uncertainty. But the next morning, she texted back and said she hadn't been kidnapped. She had just been asleep. Liz was so freaking pissed that Dave did not call and leave that message, because she's like, he's really waiting a whole damn night. Like, I could be kidnapped tied up in the back of a Van with my hands tied.

[B]

She's literally sitting on her floor in the bathroom at home going, come on, Dave. Make the call.

[A]

He texts, right? And she's like, I'm not going to answer the text. And then he'll really be worried. And he goes to bed. He like, yeah, I'll just wait. She'll text me back.

[B]

Slept like a baby.

[A]

Liz is pissed. Okay? Liz is pissed. But now she's gotta, you know, she's gotta up the ante here. So later that same day, I was just sleeping. Yeah, I was asleep. Lucky for you. So later that same day, a new Facebook account appeared under Carrie's name, using her photos. And it claimed her original account had been hacked. So she created a new one. Now, this account messaged Carrie's mom, Nancy, and apologized for missing her father Denny's funeral. And Nancy responded by saying she wouldn't believe it was Carrie unless she heard her voice. Now, the account responded with, quote, everything is about phone calls. I was just heading to bed. Who else would know about dad? Fine. I will call you sometime. I just wanted you to know I'm okay. I am happy. I may not be the greatest person in the world right now, but I am talking. Fine, I will call you. But I'm done after that. You have Max, and I'm grateful. But after the cop stuff from before, I am done. I am not 10 years old, Mom. I can leave him and move on with someone new. End quote. Damn. Now, Nancy, bless her heart, did not believe what she was reading. And as she expected, this phone call never came. Instead, the account posted a photo of a hand wearing an engagement ring with the caption, quote, dave and I got engaged. Now, Nancy immediately noticed the hand in the photo was not her daughter carries, which made it obvious to her that someone else was behind that account. So Nancy did what she should do. She contacted the police. She contacted good old Deputy Phillips again. And he reached out to Dave. And Dave was like, no, I definitely did not propose to Carrie. And Dave also reported the email he had received earlier that day. You know, about Liz being. Being tied up and kidnapped. But even with all of that, Phillips still believed Carrie was out there somewhere, hiding and stalking people, rather than considering that she might actually be missing. So Phillips is like, dave, did you propose to Carrie? And Dave is like, no. Phillips is like, all right, perfect. Great. Thanks. Have a nice day. Absolutely ludicrous.

[B]

But I don't know, man. I. I don't know what Phillips was doing on this one. I'd love to know his background. I'd Love to know his caseload at this point. These are all. None of it would excuse the practices here, but. And you have the mom coming forward and saying, hey, listen, that's not my daughter's hand. So clearly there's someone else running this account. Looks like it could be a woman. So that's who we're looking for.

[A]

I mean, it could have just been like a picture of anyone's hand, you know, like a stock photo.

[B]

Right, that too.

[A]

But the point of the matter is, first of all, Philip should be in constant contact with Dave 100%. He shouldn't just be like, hey, did you. Did you and Carrie get engaged? Like, has something changed since the last time I talked to you and you said she was stalking you, that that should not be happening. But you have no signs of life right now. No one's heard her voice. That's not her hand in the picture. Anybody could be behind the messages and the Facebook account.

[B]

You could even have just said, hey, listen, leave a voicemail. I won't even pick up. Just leave something where I can hear you say your name and. And say that you're okay. That's all I need. Because then you could take that and bring it to her mom or anybody who would know her voice and say, is this her? Now with AI, we're screwed, to be honest.

[A]

But I mean, I am, like, thinking about it deeper and Phillips is probably like, if somebody hurt Carrie and took her phone, why would they be doing all of this? Why would they be drawing attention to themselves? Like, that's bananas behavior.

[B]

Yeah. No, this is an abnormal situation. It's the same thing with. With Dave. And nobody is thinking what. What you're conveying here. This story is so crazy, which is why we're covering it. Because if it was just something straightforward, we may. We may not be able to do a four part series on it. But there's a reason for it, and this is because it's an anomaly.

[A]

Yeah. It's not something that somebody who would hurt somebody would normally do. They try to be hiding and not be drawing attention to themselves.

[B]

I'm glad we're on the same page there, because it is easy to criticize everyone, but in hindsight, as you said earlier, that's always easier. Let's take that break. We'll be right back.

[A]

So I'm excited to tell you about something that we've already talked about and

[B]

we will continue talking about. For sure.

[A]

I just ordered three more because Father's Day.

[B]

So you do like them.

[A]

Yeah, okay, I do. It's actually like, okay, so what we're talking about is the world's number one expanding garden hose and their brand new product, the pocket hose ballistic. I absolutely love it. And I want to talk about why regular hoses are somehow always in the worst possible mood. Like, they just are terrible.

[B]

It's a struggle every time. You're constantly battling with it. They kink, they tangle, they leak, and Somehow they weigh 400 pounds when you're trying to move them around because they're filled with water. I wish you guys were at my house and you could see how many times I've already showed people where I'm like, hey, look, turn the hose on. It starts off super small, and then all of a sudden expands to the 75 foot hose. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait. Watch this. I leave the hose open, turn it off, and automatically it shrinks back down right into the mulch. I don't even have to move it. And people, I think it's like the coolest thing ever. And people like, okay, buddy, sure.

[A]

So that's why the pocket hose ballistic is such an upgrade. It's super lightweight, easy to move around, and when you turn the water on, like Derek says, it expands and then shrinkage. It shrinks right back down to pocket size when you're done. So storing it is beyond easy.

[B]

Yeah, and it's built way tougher than regular hoses. It's reinforced with a liquid crystal polymer, which is the same material used in bulletproof vests. So, listen, if people are trusting them to stop a bullet, it. I think it's good enough to, you know, run your water.

[A]

I mean, they say that it makes the outer sleeve incredibly durable and actually five times stronger than steel, but it doesn't feel like it's, you know, the weight of steel. And it also comes with the pocket pivot. So this pocket pivot rotates 360 degrees at the spigot, so the hose actually moves with you instead of constantly twisting up. That's very important. Plus, they upgraded the washers to resist leaks, and they have an added UV coating, so it keeps looking good over time and through the seasons.

[B]

Yeah, we love the pocket hose. We think you will as well. And now, for a limited time, when you purchase a new pocket hose ballistic, you'll get a free 360 degree rotating pocket pivot and a free thumb drive nozzle, which I absolutely love as well. Just text CW to 64,000. That's CW to 64,000 for two free gifts with your purchase. One more time, text CW to 64,000 message and data rates may apply.

[A]

Okay, we're back. So for the rest of that day and into the next, Dave continued receiving messages from car phone with claims that she had moved into his apartment complex. She said she was in unit 12, but that unit didn't even exist. So Dave brushed it off. Then on January 8, just two days after the kidnapping email incident, Dave was driving through his apartment parking lot when he noticed a car covered in snow, which stood out to him because the other vehicles had already been cleared from a recent storm. So Dave got a closer look, and he realized it was a black Ford Explorer, just like Carries. He called the police, and they ran a plate check. They confirmed the black Explorer was indeed Carries. And this is crazy, because now you got someone driving around in Carrie's car. Where's it been this whole time? So Dave told the police. He was like, I'm adamant. This car had not been there before the storm. And the police had it towed to the Omaha Police Department impound a lot. But even then, the vehicle was treated as a stolen car, not as evidence in a missing person's case. So the technician assigned to process it was only instructed to look for fingerprints, not signs of a crime. Now, the technician noted that the Explorer was very clean, and the only fingerprints received were from a mint container in the center cup holder. Now, those prints didn't match Carrie or anyone in the FBI database. And once processing was complete, the vehicle was released to Nancy. Derek, did you hear what I said? The only fingerprints found in the Florida Explorer were on a mint case found in the center console, and they were not carries. So somebody wiped the car down.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Obviously forgot the mint case. And the police are just like, well, they're not Carrie's fingerprints. All right, well, that's all we'll do. That's all for now, folks.

[B]

Like, I don't know what the rationale here is, and I'll probably say it a few more times. This is why I'd love to have Sergeant Phillips here to talk to him and figure out what are you guys thinking at this point? Because clearly there's something going on here that's more than just a missing person. There appears to be foul play. This person's not communicating. Somebody's pretending to be them. Their vehicle's showing up at random locations,

[A]

and it's wiped down from fingerprints.

[B]

There's deliberate efforts to avoid apprehension. Something's going on here.

[A]

At this point, I'm gonna be like, okay. Because they said the fingerprints weren't in the FBI database, which means that person's never been arrested. Right.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. So.

[B]

And if Carrie doesn't want to be found, she's not going to park her car outside of this location.

[A]

No. And she's also not gonna wipe her fingerprints out of her car, because they're. They're her fingerprints.

[B]

It's her car. You would expect to find her prints.

[A]

Yes. So now I would say let's fingerprint everybody close to Carrie. Her mom, her son, Liz, Dave, the people she's been allegedly harassing. Let's just see if it comes back to them.

[B]

Anybody and everybody. Hey, listen, we just want to cancel you out. I would absolutely do that.

[A]

Yes. So that month, Dave and Liz met with Sergeant Phillips and showed the messages they had been receiving from Carrie's various phone numbers and emails. Now, the volume alone was overwhelming. There were thousands of texts and emails, and it was going to take time to go through them all. So detectives asked if they could download both of their phones. Dave and Liz agreed, but even then, the information was just put into storage. And I have to wonder, Liz, she's got kids, she's got running her own business, having some sort of pseudo relationship with Dave. Where is she finding the time to do, like, thousands and thousands of texts and emails? But by this point, Dave and Liz had bonded over everything they were going through. They found themselves venting to each other often. Even so, Dave still did not want a relationship with Liz. He continued talking to her. He continued sleeping with her, but they were never exclusively dating, and he made that clear. But like before, Liz fell back into her old patterns, demanding his time and becoming jealous whenever he spent time with other women, whether that was someone new or his ex, Amy. And, you know, Liz pulled the card of, like, I'm being stalked and harassed because of you, because of your insistence to hang out with other women. You brought a psycho into my life. You owe me a relationship. So the cycle continued. They would hook up, and then Liz would become jealous. He'd break things off and then start back up again after she'd reach out and say she needed help, often after something had happened involving their stalker. So, like on April 1, when Liz told Dave that someone had used a key to scratch the words whore. Stop. Seeing Dave into the side of her car, Liz said she knew it was Carrie because messages had come from Carrie's phone claiming responsibility. I mean, obviously, it would be Carrie at this point, but situations like that would make Dave feel guilty because in his mind, Liz was dealing with all of this because of him, and that would pull him back in so as April went on, Carrie's Facebook account became more active and the posts were filled with anger towards Liz. There were posts that said things like, like, quote, liz is a hoe that took my boyfriend away from me. She will be punished for taking my man, end quote. Another post read, quote, so now the herpes infested is going to hide from me. Can't be a woman and stand up for stealing me, man. God will punish all. End quote. So that kind of language stood out immediately because it didn't sound like Carrie at all. And people on her friends list started pointing that out. Not long after new post appeared, trying to explain this behavior away, saying things like, quote, this is the real Carrie Farver. I need to be alone right now. People just need to give me space for right now, end quote. By mid May, the questions hadn't stopped, so another post appeared that said, quote, I have answered enough questions to prove myself to everyone. I am done. You can't either believe I am your daughter, mother, sister and friend that you have known your whole life, or you can just leave me alone. I am not missing. I just don't want to come home right now, end quote. So it sounds like there's a ton of activity happening on her social media, her Facebook. Now at this point, can't the police just, like, figure it out? Yeah. And figure out what. What IP address it's coming from.

[B]

They would have to go through Facebook. Facebook, and I don't believe it was meta at the time. So they'd have to go through Facebook. And then there's privacy concerns. You have to obviously have cause. You have to have probable cause to get that access.

[A]

I mean, she's kind of threatening Liz. Right. Like, if the police believe that, I

[B]

think you could write up a good enough search warrant to get it, is my point.

[A]

Yeah. If the police believe Carrie's threatening Liz and, like, keying Whore into her car and stalking them and sending thousands of messages and emails, and she's making these kinds of statements on Facebook, Couldn't the police just be like, hey, listen, like, this Liz girl's life might be in danger. We gotta figure out where Carrie is.

[B]

It's all perspective, right? It's like, you gotta get a judge to sign off on it. You have to issue it to the Facebook, and more than likely at that point, they would give it. But I'm not saying, I'm not trying to minimize it, but there's a lot think about the things that you see online that people write. You know, they can write whatever they want with no recourse if they don't have a. If you can't prove that they have the actual ability to carry out said threat, it's basically free. Free. You can do whatever you want. Just. It's the Wild West.

[A]

But this is a missing person.

[B]

I. I agree.

[A]

And the. The whole stalker threatening thing, so it's kind of like double pronged, I would

[B]

think, at this point. The person behind this Facebook page may or may not be connected to carry missing. But there's only one way to know. You got to track them down. You got to start to put the pieces together, see where the breadcrumbs leaned you. Maybe it's a dead end, but you have to at least cross it off the list. So, yes, you issue the search warrant. You have it signed by a judge, you send it over to Facebook. You get the IP address, metadata, whatever you can find to see if you can identify where this person is sending these posts from. Maybe they're using vpn, maybe they're using different measures to prevent that, but you hope that they're stupid and that they didn't.

[A]

Okay, so around the same time, Max decided to reach out to this profile just to see what would happen. And I feel so bad for Max, right, Because he and his mom are really close. That's. They basically only had each other. He turned 15. He genuinely probably is like, what the hell's going on? You know, And. And even if he doesn't think it's his mom saying these things, then he has to think, my mom is in danger and missing. I just feel terrible for him. He reaches out to this Facebook profile, and Max got a response that said, hey, little man. How are you? Now, that immediately stood out because Carrie had never called Max little man before. So Max asked three questions that only his mom would know the answers to. His middle name, the name of their first dog, and the name of his best friend.

[B]

Smart.

[A]

But he never got a response.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Because the person didn't know the answers to those questions. Yeah. Now, at that point, Max didn't need a response because he already knew it wasn't really his mother. So even though Car's family didn't believe the messages were coming from her, Dave did. And he continued receiving threatening messages from Car's phone, many of them directed at Liz and sometimes even Liz's children. And on May 11, he received an email from Krupa Carry at gmail with an attached photo of Liz's children, along with the message, quote, these are the ugliest kids, just like their whore Mom. They should die with their whore mom so I don't have to see their ugliness anymore. End quote.

[B]

The crazy part is this is Liz. I know that's the crazy part. I'm not making light of the situation, but damn. Even if you're pretending to be someone else, calling your own kids ugly, you

[A]

know what it reminds me of? Did you. Did you see that, like, JP Morgan thing where the guy accused his female boss of sexual harassment?

[B]

And, oh, I saw a little bit on that. Was that not true?

[A]

No, it's not true.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

So he shows these messages that the female boss is sending him, and she's like, I know you want me because I'm better than your ugly wife. Or something like that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I'm like, oh, damn.

[B]

Like, oh, he made it all up.

[A]

So he sent those messages to himself. But it's like, man, you said that about your wife, and then you got found out that it wasn't her, it was you. You. And now your wife knows you wrote that. Good luck.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

Good luck.

[B]

Now you're getting charged with a crime and divorce.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, this is Liz basically saying these things, but, you know, I think she's trying to up the ante, right? Dave's a father, so if he's not worried about Liz getting kidnapped and tied up hog tied to the back of some van. Well, if Liz's children are being threatened, they're innocent, maybe then he'll step in and be the protective man and. And do what's right and, you know, take care of them all. Now, the image of Liz's kids showed the kids inside Liz's home, and it appeared to have been taken from outside through a window, which made it even more disturbing. Liz. Liz told her kids. She was like, can you guys just sit here and play Monopoly? I'm going to go outside. Mommy's going to take a picture of you from outside, like a creeper. But don't be scared. It's. It's just a game.

[B]

All for a guy, man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When you really think about it, it's just insane. This is definitely a mentally disturbed person.

[A]

Definitely. So Dave told Liz about it, and she said it made her extremely uncomfortable to think that his stalker had been watching her children.

[B]

That's a guilt trip right there. You owe me.

[A]

She's like, maybe you should move in with me or I should move in with you.

[B]

You owe me. This is because of you. You've. You've upended my life.

[A]

Yeah, I didn't ask for this. This is because you insisted on dating other women, Dave. See?

[B]

Here's what you get. Could have had me.

[A]

Could have had me. Not crazy, but really crazy. So look at those ugly children. They're the ugliest kids I've ever seen.

[B]

Damn, dude, that is brutal. I don't even care if it's for the plot.

[A]

Never would I ever.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

I couldn't even bring myself.

[B]

Look at those adorable children that I'm stalking.

[A]

Their ugly mother doesn't deserve these beautiful children.

[B]

Yes. Yes, exact.

[A]

That same day, Dave received another email from Car's account with a link to an obituary for Liz which included her photo and the dates. June 28, 1975 to May 11, 2013. The obituary read in part, quote, I didn't know her very well, except that she was a. And a man stealer. She kept stealing my man. She is unable to get her own man, that she has to keep taking everyone else's men. Thank God she is gone. End quote.

[B]

That's an obituary.

[A]

Yeah, that's pretty standard for an obituary, actually. So a few hours later, another email came through with the subject line, how do I find a hitman contract killer? The body of the email said, quote, I am trying to hire someone to get rid of that Liz for us. You told me before you wanted her gone. I can't do it myself because the cops will figure it out, end quote. It went on to ask if Liz's children should be killed as well, and ended with, quote, I love you, Dave, and I am glad you're in this with me. I hope to see you soon. You're beautiful, beautiful Carrie. End quote.

[B]

And Dave's just sitting there like, what am I gonna order for dinner?

[A]

Dave's like, should I let Liz know about this, or. I'll just text her tomorrow morning.

[B]

Yeah, I gotta get some sleep.

[A]

She. She's got her own thing going on. She's very busy writing fake obituaries. So the stalking didn't stop there. And at one point, a brick was thrown through Dave's window. He reported it to the police and said it had come from Carrie. And in response, they issued a misdemeanor warrant for Carrie's arrest, so if she was ever pulled over, it would show up. Now, by that point, it was July of 2013. So understand this means no one has physically seen Carrie or heard her voice in more than six months. Not law enforcement, not Dave, not Liz, not Nancy, Carrie's mother, not Max, Carrie's son. Yet somehow, all of this activity continued without anyone ever seeing Carrie. And police didn't Find that suspicion vicious. So meanwhile, Dave and Liz continued their toxic cycle. He would let her back into his life, making it clear he still didn't want anything serious. And she would agree, at least at first, before slipping back into jealousy and control. They would break things off, and then she would reach out again and it would start all over. By July of 2013, they'd been doing this for a year. And Liz felt like Dave owed it to her to set aside one day a week just for her. And I agree. Like, I'm going back to your comment. All this for a man.

[B]

All of it for a man. This is all for her to guilt trip him into spending time with her.

[A]

And what is it about Dave for Liz?

[B]

I have some thoughts, but they're not appropriate for this channel.

[A]

But is that. Is that the only man out there with that, that level of equipment?

[B]

Absolutely not.

[A]

I mean, there are plenty of fish, right? Absolutely not.

[B]

No. This is. This is a mentally disturbed person joking a little bit about it. But at the end of the day, Dave's nothing special. No disrespect.

[A]

No, no, not. We're not saying he's nothing special. No one is this special. Brad Pitt would not. I would. I would not do this for Brad Pitt. And I'm talking.

[B]

How about Henry Cavill?

[A]

Early bread. Not even Henry Cavill.

[B]

Wow. Not even Tudor.

[A]

I would never. No one is with this.

[B]

No, nobody would.

[A]

Liz would. For Dave.

[B]

Nobody of sound mind would allow anyone. One to have this much control over them mentally.

[A]

It's not that he's nothing special, because, you know, there's someone out there.

[B]

He could be a great guy.

[A]

He could have been anyone. She appears to just have, like, hyper fixated on him and become obsessed with him.

[B]

It's by definition stalking. Right. Like, there's something about this person. Even when you see celebrities. Right. These celebrities are just human. Human beings like the rest of us. And yet there's a person out there who, who thinks that they're in a relationship with this person and they've never met them. Nothing reasonable can explain that thought process. And the only thing that you can deduce is that this person is mentally unstable. And that's the same case here.

[A]

Yeah, but with celebrities, you can kind of put them on a pedestal. But you got Dave over here. Like, you're seeing his toe hair. All right? He's. He's clipping it. Like, there's, there's, there's the everyday aspect of, like, this is just some dude. Okay.

[B]

No, that's, that's the point, though. She sees him in the same light that some may see a Brad Pitt. Like, to her, he is the Brad Pitt. She not only thinks he's the best guy out there, I think it's more so the idea of someone else having him that she can't. She can't deal with that.

[A]

Can you just imagine Dave going through life and he's, like, trying to date other people? He's like, no one will ever love me as much as Liz, Dick.

[B]

I mean, he ain't wrong.

[A]

No one will ever see me the way she did.

[B]

Right. I do think that's what it is. He just. There. There are people out there who struggle with, you know, rejection. And. And I think that this is someone who wanted to be with Dave. He didn't want to be with her. I do think there's something to be said for giving mixed signals, and I think Dave was guilty of that based on what you've told me.

[A]

But how would he possibly have known it would turn into this, this.

[B]

But even still, like, even in this moment, like he's with this girl who's allegedly being stalked by his ex girlfriend, you're telling her consistently, I don't want to be with you. Be a grown adult and stop sleeping with her. You know, she's already made it clear she wants to be with you. So you're. You're not doing yourself any good here. You're not doing. You're doing a disservice to her and to you by saying, I don't want to be with you.

[A]

But.

[B]

But to continually sleep with her when there are other women out there that you can sleep with and there's no, oh, he sleeps. No underlying conditions.

[A]

Yeah, he's sleeping with them, too. But this all.

[B]

So stop sleeping with Liz.

[A]

Really, all Liz is doing, if you think about it, is inflating Dave's ego more because now he's under the impression, like, man, I started dating Liz, she went crazy. I started dating Carrie, she went crazy. These women can't get enough of me. Every woman I get close to all of a sudden just thinks I'm Brad Pitt.

[B]

So, yeah, I mean, for me, it's not that complicated. As a guy, if I'm out there and I don't want to be serious with anyone, you express that to the woman beforehand, and if it's cool with her, then it's cool with you. And if it's transactional on both ends, no problem. But the minute.

[A]

The minute you see it's not cool

[B]

with her, the minute, even if she's saying it's cool with me. But there's an action that says otherwise. You have a responsibility to end things.

[A]

Actions speak louder than words.

[B]

And you don't even have to tell her. That's the reason. But you have a responsibility to go, you know what? It's me. I. I don't want to do the transactional thing. I don't want to develop feelings. I'm going to take a break. You end it.

[A]

Liz says, you need to give me one dedicated day a week, just for Liz. And Dave agreed. Not because he really wanted to, but because he felt some level of loyalty to Liz. She had been going through it with him, and she was one of the only people who understood what he was dealing with. The definition of a trauma bond. So she was also one of the only women who had stayed in his life during that time, aside from Amy, who really doesn't have a choice because she's got kids with him. Mostly because the other women had been scared off once the fake stalker started targeting them, too. But like before, once Dave gave Liz something, it wasn't enough. You give them an inch, they want a mile. So one day a week turned into more demands, more jealousy, more control. And by early August, Dave ended things again.

[B]

Shocker. We're just. We're just kind of beating a dead horse here. I mean, it's the same thing over and over. Obviously, Liz is the problem here. She's got something really wrong with her.

[A]

Really wrong. I wonder if she's done this to people before. Like, was Dave the first?

[B]

Well, that's something that we need to talk about. In hindsight, maybe by, you know, as we go through the series, we'll find out that this was a pattern. Right. Starting at a very young age, who knows? But I do think there were probably signs there for Dave to end this much earlier. And who knows? Maybe if he had. I'm not justifying Liz's actions, but maybe if he had and he had been more clear about it and just more definitive, maybe none of this happens. Maybe she looks at it and says, wow, he really has no feelings for me whatsoever. Doesn't even want to talk to me.

[A]

Genuinely. I don't think so.

[B]

Actually, I. I gotta find the next person.

[A]

I think by the time, like, she started getting kind of weird, that was. It was already too late. Yeah. Which was pretty early on. Let's take another break. We'll be right back. I feel like everyone has that moment when they look around their back bedroom and realize, okay, this no longer feels relaxing, and I am no longer in college.

[B]

Yeah. The sheets are all worn out, the pillars are flat, and somehow the fitted sheet feels like it's constantly trying to escape the mattress. Every day I'm trying to put it back under the mattress so I'm not sleeping on basically just the pad itself.

[A]

I didn't realize how much that was affecting my sleep and like, just the way I viewed myself and my self esteem until I upgraded to Bollen Branch and the difference was immediate. So we are using the signature sheets and also I added one of the waffle blankets. I love the colors and suddenly.

[B]

Super nice.

[A]

It's super nice. My bed actually feels like a place that I want to be at the end of the day. Like, I walk in and I'm like, hey, I look like I have my stuff together.

[B]

And it really does give you that, like, hotel bed feeling without having to,

[A]

like, understand interior decorating and stuff because everything kind of goes together and you just look at the picture and you replicate it. It's perfect. But it's better because it's your own bed. Everything is made from high quality organic materials, and you can feel that quality immediately. The sheets are soft, breathable, and somehow we've talked about this before, but it's crazy. They get softer every time I wash them. And it's one of those upgrades where you didn't realize how uncomfortable your old bedding was until you replaced it. So if you're redesigning your space, if you're resetting your routine or you're just trying to make your home feel more put together and like, have that relaxing spa hotel feeling at the end of the day, don't carry over bedding that's already worn out. For me, this made the whole room look and feel more comfortable and calming. Crawling into bed actually feels like a reward now. So Derek, tell them how they can check out bowl and branch and also get a really good deal right now.

[B]

Yeah, right now is an awesome time to check them out. You can get 20 off your first order plus free shipping during the Memorial day [e-mail] crimeweekly with code crime Weekly. That's Boland Branch. B O L L a n d branch.com crime weekly code crime weekly for 20 off one more time. Bolandbranch.com crimeweekly code crime weekly Exclusions apply.

[A]

Okay, we're back. So Dave ends things in August, early August. He's like, I'm breaking up with you again. She's like, okay, dude. And then just a few weeks later, on August 17, a fire was reported at Liz's home. And when firefighters arrived, they found smoke throughout the home, but the fire itself had already cooled down. Sadly, all four of Liz's pets, two dogs, a cat, and a snake had died. This killed her own pets. Unforgivable. Unforgivable. The calling your own kids ugly thing. All right, I had a problem with it, but this. We are done, Liz. So fire investigators looked over the scene. They found at least six different points of origin in the basement, along with traces of gasoline, which made it clear the fire had been intentionally set. But whoever started it wasn't experienced because the fire had burned out quickly and only mainly caused smoke damage, which was enough to kill the pets.

[B]

Or they knew exactly what they were doing.

[A]

They knew they were going to kill their pets.

[B]

Knew they were going to kill their pets but not burn the house to the ground.

[A]

Yeah, I'm disgusted. So investigators spoke with Liz. She said she was in the process of moving out and into a friend. Friend's place. She and her kids had been at the house around 3pm the day before to move some things. And when she returned the next morning around 7:30am that's when she discovered the fire. Liz also told investigators that she believed Carrie was responsible, and that's because both she and Dave had received emails from Carrie claiming responsibility for the fire. Luckily, once again, every time Liz is like, I think this is what happened. And here's why I know, because Carrie

[B]

told me, here's the supporting evidence. And yet basically carries Osama bin Laden.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, she's everywhere.

[B]

Nobody can find her.

[A]

She's everywhere and nowhere at once.

[B]

Yeah. She's responsible for all this vandalism and all these criminal acts, and yet the entire police department can't track her down.

[A]

She has not experienced the setting fires, but she's a ghost. Okay. So Dave had received an email on Aug 16 at 11:57pm that said, quote, I am not lying. I set that nasty horse house on fire. I hope the whole whore and her kids die in it. End quote. It actually said hole w h o l e. But then I realized as I was reading it that she probably

[B]

meant I. I think that's a safe assumption.

[A]

So then Liz received one just under an hour later, saying that Carrie hoped Liz and her children would burn to death. So after the interview with the police, Liz called Dave. She was panicked and crying, telling him her house was on fire, begging him to come over. He was at work and busy, but she kept pushing, so he went. When he got there, he found her standing in the street crying. He Tried to comfort her as she told him she had lost everything and didn't even have renters insurance. Day felt bad for her. And over the next few days, he helped her clean up. During that time, she kept reminding him that his stalker was responsible for what happened. And it made him feel even worse. And it wasn't long before they were sleeping together again.

[B]

Again. Oh, here we go. Good old Dave.

[A]

The second that I want anyone to ever be around me because they feel obligated to is the. The moment I just want to disappear from this planet.

[B]

Like G. Well, we know why Liz is doing it, right? She's. She has this unhealthy obsession. I. I can't explain from the guy's perspective why Dave is continuing to do this.

[A]

He feels guilty, so he's just having pity sex or he feels guilty, so he's.

[B]

Do not think that Dave's getting anything out of it where he's like, oh, convenience.

[A]

I don't know. At this point, this whole situation is so uncomfortable. I don't know how you.

[B]

I think he's like. He's on a dry spell with his other hookups and he's like, well, because.

[A]

Because fake carries. Chasing all his other hookups away, remember?

[B]

And listen, I'm not trying to be sexual here, but I think it's. I think it's part of it with Dave. Whatever he wants, I'm sure Liz is willing to do.

[A]

And so he's getting.

[B]

You know what I mean? Whatever. Whatever he wants in the bedroom, she's willing to do it. So he's. There's probably a matter of convenience here where the fact that he's continuing to do this and she probably even knows it, but she's blinded by her obsession

[A]

and love for him. You're not thinking straight.

[B]

She doesn't care. No.

[A]

So the stalking didn't stop. And in October, Dave showed up to work and found that his shop had been vandalized. Spray painted across the front windows in bright orange were the words Dave beats women. Now, he didn't have to wonder who was behind it because like before, messages came from Carrie's account. Taking credit it. Although by this point, would you even wonder who was behind it? So things continued to escalate over the next few months. In November, Dave received an email from Leah Krupa at Gmail, a name that combined Carrie's middle name, Leah, with Dave's last name, Krupa. And the email began, quote, to my husband, David Krupa, end quote.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

The email went on to say that Carrie had purchased a knife and had been creeping around in his building. The email included a photo of a large knife, Carrie's driver's license, and an envelope with her name on it. So about a month later, there was another incident, this time at Dave's apartment. Liz told him she had left earlier that day, and she'd come back to find the place in disarray, with a window screen on the floor and signs that someone had come inside. Leaves had been tracked in and scattered across a dresser, and a pile of Liz's clothing had been cut up and thrown onto the floor. Written on the wall was the message, go away. Detectives looked into the incident, but there were no witnesses, no fingerprints, and nothing that could point to a suspect. So the stalking continued throughout 2014. And by the start of 2015, Dave couldn't take it anymore. He moved to Council bluffs to be closer to his kids, and he was careful about who he gave his new address to. But even that didn't work. And the stalking followed him there because I'm sure he gave his new address to good old Liz. So while all of this was happening, Nancy was still searching for her daughter. She looked into Carrie's financial records and found that there was around $10,000 in her bank account that hadn't been touched since the month she disappeared.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So Nancy's doing some police work here.

[B]

Well, I know. And you're laughing. That is a problem.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because if. If we're to find out that this revelation was first discovered by the victim's mother, that's a major issue. I said, you know, 30 minutes ago that you would have to look into her credit cards, bank accounts. That's like, day one stuff. So I'm hoping that Nancy found this out after law enforcement had already known about it, but probably not.

[A]

Probably not. Because if law enforcement knew about it, then wouldn't you wonder, how are you living exactly. How are you living without using your money? It's your money. You can use it. It.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Why are you not using your money? How are you living? Where are you staying? How are you eating? How are you paying your phone bill?

[B]

Yeah, no, it's a. It's a telltale sign when you're looking to see if someone has intentionally gone off the reservation. They're trying to kind of get away from everyone. They'll take out a large sum of money, or there'll be some type of activity on one of their credit cards where they're using that at minimum, to survive.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. So they're not living on the streets Using a hotel room room or whatever.

[A]

Withdrawals or something.

[B]

And cash would have been great because you can take the cash out. Now there's no trail. Right. You can just do whatever you want. No digital trace of where you were or how you're spending your money. So to think that this person is out there surviving day to day, we're talking what, six, eight months, maybe longer.

[A]

Now, at this point, she's surviving off the land. You know, she's in the wilderness, just creeping up to Dave.

[B]

Surviving off the land with ten grand in cash.

[A]

Yeah. Creeping up to Dave's apartment. She doesn't even have a couple car anymore. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Creeping up to Dave's apartment complex and setting fire to Liz's house and then eating berries in the woods while she watches them with binoculars.

[B]

At this point, I don't want to be binary, but I will. If you're looking at this evidence, you're thinking one of two things. Either Carrie is dead or Carrie is being held captive. Either way, it's a crime. And. And the fact that it wasn't treated as such is. Is a crime in and of itself.

[A]

I mean, just the fact that this woman allegedly has set people's houses on fire. She's sending people pictures of knives.

[B]

She's someone you want to get off the street.

[A]

Yeah. Sending pictures of the kids saying they deserve to die. This is somebody you want to find. This is an arson way or the other. Yeah.

[B]

She's going to kill someone. Whoever this person is that's carrying this behavior out is going to kill someone. There's an evolution here. It's gone from threats to vandalism to arson to vandalism. Again, the threats are escalating. The next step to gain attention would be actually murdering someone.

[A]

Yes. So Nancy does some detective work. Now she sees $10,000. None of it's been touched, okay? Not since the month Carrie was last heard from. Now, there's been actually Carrie, the last time anybody's laid eyes on her, not fake Carrie. There had been no withdrawals. The only activity were two debit card transactions on November 16th 16th. One at Walmart and one at a dollar store in Omaha, which had been flagged as unusual. And when Carrie didn't respond to the bank's alert, you know, the fraud alert, the card was frozen, and then that account wasn't used again. So Nancy, you know, she's doing all their work for them. She gives all the information to the police, and she continued pushing for a full investigation. Finally, in the spring of 2015, around the same time Dave moved to Council Bluffs. Detectives Ryan Avis and Jim Doty volunteered to take on Car's missing persons case.

[B]

Why did they have to volunteer?

[A]

Wasn't somebody already on that case?

[B]

Well, we had Sergeant Phillips.

[A]

Yeah, Sergeant Phillips.

[B]

But Sergeant Phillips, I don't know if he's retired or just unconscious.

[A]

Sergeant Phillips took a nap.

[B]

Yeah, he's asleep at the wheel for sure. The fact that two outside detectives, whether they were from the same agency or a neighboring agency, the fact that they're saying, hey, listen, we'll take this on that just shows the inactivity to this

[A]

case, like it's some cold case or something, you know, like they're bored, and they're like, let's go through the cold cases and see what. What we can find. Like, very weird. Very weird.

[B]

I would think that these detectives would be from the same agency for that exact reason. Right. This is something that's an open investigation, so you wouldn't have other municipalities with access to it.

[A]

Yeah, they have to be, because that's where she went missing from. So that's the jurisdiction. But either way, these two detectives, thank God for them. You know, at least somebody's being taking some initiative here. So Detectives Ryan Avis and Jim Doty, they decided to approach the case from two different angles, with Dodie working it as if Carrie was dead and Avis working it as if she was still alive. And then together, they went back to the very beginning and started reviewing the original case file. And one thing they agreed on right away was that Carrie's bipolar disorder had nothing to do with her disappearance appearance. Thank you, Ryan Avis and Jim Doty, for having some sense in your head. So as Avis worked through the timeline, he was struck by the fact that Carrie's bank account hadn't been used since three days after she disappeared. And then no one had physically seen or heard her voice since that same time frame. That is striking. Yes.

[B]

And you know, that is. That is something you might want to look into. Huh?

[A]

This is probably all the same stuff that. That Sergeant Phillips knew, right? Right.

[B]

No, 100%, because they're getting access to most of this through the initial reports.

[A]

Unless Sergeant Phillips didn't even look at her bank account information, which I'm leaning toward he didn't.

[B]

Yeah, that's why I brought it up. I'm leaning toward he didn't go that step. I think he truly believed that she was out there somewhere, just didn't want to be found. She'd eventually come home, and when she didn't, he had already moved on from it.

[A]

Yeah, he forgot all about it.

[B]

Seems like he was doing the minimum.

[A]

So all of this, it was very odd for an adult disappearance. And so Avis, he came to the conclusion that Carrie was not alive. We're getting somewhere.

[B]

We're gonna take someone with some common sense.

[A]

I know. I know a police officer who knows how to do police work. So Detective Doty agreed, and they brought in digital forensics administrator Anthony Kava to help go through the phone data that had been collected back in January 2013 from both Liz and Dave, which included thousands of files, emails, texts, photos. Remember, this is when Liz and Dave wanted to talk to Sergeant Phillips, and he was like, give me your phones. Let me download that data and do absolutely nothing with it. So they're actually going through it, and they started digging through it piece by piece. And as they did, they uncovered details that changed everything.

[B]

Oh, I'm sure they did. And this is evidence again that they've had since day one. I'll also put out there to try to pull back the curtain a little bit. When you have an investigative division. Division, it's like any division in a police department. There's a hierarchy there, right? And you're gonna have your normal detectives, right? You may have different divisions. Narcotics, homicide, burglary, whatever it might be, Right. Juvenile cases. And then you'll have supervisors. You'll have a sergeant, a lieutenant, maybe a captain, depending on the size of the agency. When we started this episode, and you had mentioned at the top of the show that Sergeant Phillips was working in it, that was something that raised an eyebrow from me, because that's normally not what you see. Depending on the size of the agency, it'll be the detectives that will investigate it. So I do wonder what was going on at that time where Sergeant Phillips handled this case, where they, you know, were.

[A]

I just don't think they took it seriously. She had bipolar disorder. They didn't.

[B]

But that would. Stephanie, that would be more of a reason to stick it on the juvenile detective.

[A]

I mean, I agree, but.

[B]

So I wonder if if. Again, I'm just. I'm sure if they could come back and tell us, right? Like, what happened. I have a. I have a strong suspicion that the other detectives were tied up on something. They didn't think much of this. So Sergeant Phillips was like, all right, I'll go file it, and then never delegated it to a detective to work it. He just basically said, yeah, I got this one, and just didn't do nothing with it because he's in A supervisory role. I think it slipped through the cracks for sure.

[A]

Sure. Maybe Sergeant Phillips was like that annoying, like, older cop who was close to retirement. He was just, like, tottering around and bothering everybody and trying to tell all the. All the detectives how to do their job. And they were like, let's give him the bipolar girl that we definitely know is okay. Just keep him busy and get him off our case.

[B]

Well, he would be the one assigning the cases, so I strongly believe, and I've had this happen before, where you go back and look at a case that wasn't solved, and then you look at who was working the case, and it's a supervisor who is, you know, one foot out the door, and they're doing the bare minimum. If it. If it involves them having to leave the station, it ain't getting solved.

[A]

Damn. It's like that.

[B]

So that's probably what happened here. And it does. When you're reading between the lines, it sounds like Doty and Avis. Am I saying that right? It sounds like they said, all right, Phillips isn't here, or maybe he's not a. You know, he's on vacation. We're going to take a look at this one because we're hearing about it.

[A]

It.

[B]

And yet it's his case. So we're trying not to step on his toes, but we'll volunteer to take it on. Sarge. Don't worry about it. We got it. You relax, you stay on your vacay. We'll take a quick look at it. I'm sure everything's on the up and up. And as soon as they started doing the work, they figured it out.

[A]

What I'm hearing is this is Sergeant Phillips fault.

[B]

I feel like the. The. The. The problem here, the bottleneck, is Sergeant Phillips. I think he was in a supervisory role. Not really running gun anymore. Didn't want to do the work. Didn't see a lot of substance to this case that suggested he needed to go deeper. And even when it did, he was too lazy to do it.

[A]

Don't like to hear that. Don't like to hear that.

[B]

I mean, gotta call it how I see it. If. If he happens to hear this, I am putting the effort, the invitation out there. We'll gladly have him come on and explain to us how this happened. Because what it sounds like as we're starting to kind of come to the end of this episode, is that what they needed to solve this case was available all along.

[A]

What they needed to solve this case was an investigation.

[B]

So if that's. If that's true. And basically, they used what they already had to start to go a different direction. My first question to you, Sergeant Phillips, would be, why didn't you do that?

[A]

I know it sounds like pretty quickly they looked at it, and in five minutes, they were like, no, she's not alive. Right.

[B]

Like, even if it took them a couple weeks, Stephanie, I don't think it did. But you gotta bring in the people who can actually help you, the forensics people. Like, you're not gonna do that stuff. Stuff, Even if you're lazy, just pass it along to someone else, so at least you can blame it on them for not being solved. Or. Or being kind of in limbo. It just seems like he said, nah, I'm looking at this. I have enough experience to know this is a nothing burger. Nothing happened here. We're good. Moving on.

[A]

Well, it's unfortunate, but at least now we have two people on it who are like, we see something that doesn't. Doesn't settle well with us.

[B]

Yeah. Who are. Who are actually going to solve it.

[A]

Let's do something about this. And it's very interesting what they're going to find, but we will talk about that after our last break. So, one thing they found was a photo of car's Ford Explorer on Liz's phone. And the time stamp showed it had been taken on December 24, 20, 2012. Which was after Carrie disappeared, but before Dave found the vehicle near his apartment. So detectives wondered, how in the world could Liz have that photo if she wasn't involved in Cari's disappearance? Then there was the email from the January 2013 kidnapping hoax. The one with the photo of the woman bound in the trunk that had been sent from Carrie's account and claimed to show Liz. And when the forensic guy, cava looked at the metadata, it showed the photo had been taken. Taken using a specific LG Spectrum cell phone, which was the same exact type of phone that Liz owned. And then there was something else. On Liz's phone. CAVA also found a video that showed someone walking outside Dave's apartment. That same video had been uploaded to YouTube by an account using Carrie's name that had been created after she disappeared. So when CAVA traced the IP address used to upload the video, it led back to a man named Todd Butterbow. And that name stood out immediately because Todd wasn't a stranger. He actually work the sheriff's office IT Department. And he actually worked under Cava. The plot thickens. Derek.

[B]

Yeah, this is what happens when you actually open up your Book and do the investigation and. And start to flip over some rocks. But this is a crazy case.

[A]

Is this interesting, though? Because you were just like, why did Lieutenant Phillips not do anything with this? Well, now we might be unraveling something. Things.

[B]

Yeah, there could be something here. I'm. I'm smashing Phillips and I. This would make more sense than just being. Just being lazy. But now you got me intrigued. Now I want to know what a name. Butterball.

[A]

Todd Butterbaugh. So Todd Butterbaugh works in the Sheriff's Office IT department. And his IP address uploaded the video to YouTube under an account using Carrie's name. Name. And it's of somebody walking outside Dave's apartment. All right, so when detectives started looking into Todd Butterbaugh's personal life, they found he'd been dating the same woman for years. And that woman was none other than. Liz. Liz. Okay. They'd been together since the fall of 2010, nearly two years before she met Dave. So at that point, everything changed. Detectives were convinced that Carrie hadn't disappeared and she hadn't been stalking any one. There was something else going on here, something much darker than anyone could have ever imagined. Now, because at this point, we got stuff involved here, and we have to ask ourselves, why did the police not take car's disappearance seriously? And why was this information not gone through? Well, now we got someone in the sheriff's office who's cozying up with Liz. And. And why is Todd dating Liz, helping Liz harass. Harass Dave so that Liz can be in a relationship with Dave? What's going on here? We gotta find out. But what we do know is Liz was not a victim of anything. She was the one impersonating Carrie. She was the one stalking herself and Dave. She was the one vandalizing property, setting things on fire. She was behind it all. And because Carrie hadn't been seen or heard from since Liz started impersonating her, these two detectives who actually did some work, they believed Carrie was deceased and that Liz was responsible for that too. So in early May 2015, detectives went to Nancy and told her they didn't believe Carrie had left voluntarily. Nancy's like, yeah, guys, thank you. I've been trying to tell you for 13 years. Not 13 years, but you know what I mean. Obviously from the police, from somebody who could do something and was actually taking it seriously. These were the words Nancy had been waiting to hear for the last 903 days. She was grateful that a thorough investigation would finally occur. But as she would soon find out, the case Was far from over because Liz wasn't done, not even close. And she even had her eyes set on an additional victim. But that's going to have to wait for part three. So now we have a ton of threads pulled out here.

[B]

This is the point where the story usually ends. But now you're telling me there's more?

[A]

Yeah, no, there's more. Hold on. Nancy's grateful that an investigate. I would be livid. It's been 900 days. I am going to sue every one of you. There won't be a sheriff's department in this town when I'm done with you. There might as well not be one now.

[B]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I'm sure this isn't, you know, she was doing her own investigation because she was relaying some of this to sergeant Phillips, and it was. Nothing was being done with it, but

[A]

Phillips wasn't doing it.

[B]

But it also does make a little bit more sense to me now about Liz's ability to at least minimally cover

[A]

her tracks and to do all of this stuff, too.

[B]

Not a. Not a great job, but better than your normal person who may just guess at how to avoid apprehension. Maybe she had an inside source. Maybe it's just she had a person she could kind of use as a, you know, a sounding board, Bounce some ideas off of.

[A]

Maybe that person was helping her with some of the volumes. Volume of those messages and emails. Right.

[B]

Right. Using different measures to avoid apprehension and detection by changing up certain things in the metadata that only someone who had an I. T. Background would understand.

[A]

But, I mean, did. Did she really avoid apprehension? She gave her phone to sergeant Phillips. He downloaded it. Just didn't look at anything. But it looks like once somebody did look at the data, it was like, it's all here. She's got a picture of freaking Carrie's car. Car. After she goes missing and before Dave found the car, you. You didn't really cover your tracks that well. But somebody said in the comment section of part one, I'd be interested to know if, you know, Dave or Liz or. Or Dave was receiving these messages and emails and threatening things from, you know, quote, unquote, Carrie while Liz was with him. Was it butterball? This is thousands of messages and emails. This is a lot of work. Like I said. Where does she find the time? Time?

[B]

How do you convince Butterbow to send messages to the guy you're sleeping with while you're with him?

[A]

How does she convince Dave to keep coming back to her? Men are simple creatures.

[B]

Yeah, I get what you're saying.

[A]

Men are simple, simple creatures.

[B]

Damn. If you tell me in the next part that Butterball. Am I saying is I keep screwing his name up.

[A]

Butterball.

[B]

Butterball. If he's sending these messages, or at least some of them, that is just a next level of diabolical. I. Oh, man. I want to keep going.

[A]

Maybe the guy in the comment section harassing us and saying, maybe it's Butter Bow. He's still riding hard for Liz.

[B]

He's still riding hard. We got it all wrong. No, I mean, this is. This is deep. Because at this point, yeah, you would have Avis and Dodie come in and they'd put it together and they'd put, you know, bring her down and that would be the end of it. But, yeah, we got more to go. Guys, side note, real quick before we wrap it up, thank you for all the support toward John Lord.

[A]

And that was great.

[B]

We saw the comments. I saw that he's got more views on his video. Really appreciate you guys doing that. That's how we come together as a community to help people who have similar interests to you and I, wanting to help victims cover these stories, talk about it, educate ourselves, be informed. John is the epitome of that and just a great guy, and we're hoping that he has some good news soon. Next week we will be back with another episode. It'll be our last episode before we go to Crimecon, but we're bank recording all of this series and the start of the next, so.

[A]

So we won't miss a beat.

[B]

Yes, you will. You will get your episodes on time. Thank you to our Patreon members, thank you to our YouTube members, thank you to Crime Weekly. Plus on Apple Pod, everything, all the ad free options. The chat rooms have been great. We're gonna have another bonus episode coming out later this month before we. We're gonna record it before we go to Crimecon. So you'll have it by the end of this month. And we also have our. Our live that we will be doing as well before we leave for Crimecon. So appreciate you being here.

[A]

Lots of work for Derek and Stephanie.

[B]

A lot of work.

[A]

And then also, are we leaving like 10 days? Basically, right?

[B]

We are less than that. We got Criminal coffee as well. We're gonna be bringing a bunch of Criminal Coffee coffee to Crimecon. We have a live show that we're doing at CrimeCon. We also have a really. If it comes together, we're not going to say it now. A really interesting interview that we're not publishing or Putting anywhere. It's going to be secretive. We're going to do it and then make an episode out of it or maybe a series.

[A]

Wait, we are publishing it and putting it somewhere once it's done? Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah, for sure. But we're not letting anybody know that we're going out there to do it.

[A]

No. Well, we're not going out there to do it. We're just.

[B]

We're making it happen. It was your idea. It was all your idea. I'm just facilitating making it happen. A lot of good things coming. A lot of good things coming. We appreciate you being here. Appreciate the love and support. If you haven't already and you're watching on YouTube, please, like, comment. Subscribe if you're listening on Apple or Spotify. Leave a review. Leave a rating. We would greatly appreciate it. Until next week, everyone stay safe out there. Yeah, leave a review. Appreciate it. Leave a review. Takes 10 seconds.

[A]

Mr. Dave Butterbaugh. What was his name? It wasn't Dave, was it?

[B]

Well, Butter Bow would leave us a bad review.

[A]

Butter Bow would. Would be like, you can't. You got to take what's given to you because it's illegal to take it without it being given to you.

[B]

I love the accent added on to it and the. And the. The purse lips. It's amazing. All right. Anything else?

[A]

That's it.

[B]

All right. We appreciate you guys. We love you. We'll see you next week.

[A]

Bye, guys. Bye, Sam.