Cari Farver | The Pattern Everyone Missed (Part 3)

Summary

CRIME WEEKLY PODCAST SUMMARY
Episode: "Cari Farver | The Pattern Everyone Missed (Part 3)"
Hosts: Stephanie Harlowe and Derrick Levasseur
Date: May 29, 2026

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Episode Overview

In Part 3 of their deep dive into the disappearance and murder of Cari Farver, hosts Stephanie Harlowe and Derrick Levasseur continue unraveling the tangled web spun by Liz Golyar. This installment explores the aftermath of realizing Liz, originally thought to be a victim in the case, was actually both the true perpetrator and an unrelenting stalker. The episode details how detectives had to painstakingly piece together Liz's background and pattern of manipulation, highlighting the complex investigative journey, new discoveries, and barriers within law enforcement systems that allowed Liz's campaign of deception and violence to persist for years.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Recap of the Case So Far (01:56)

• For over two years, Cari Farver appeared missing but alive, with her phone and social media still active—posts and thousands of threatening messages aimed at Dave Krupa and others.
• Police initially believed Cari had become a stalker, but her family insisted this was out of character.
• Detectives Avis and Doty reopened the case, finding disturbing inconsistencies in the digital evidence and, crucially, a photo of Cari’s missing Ford Explorer on Liz’s phone—taken after Cari vanished.

Detectives’ Breakthrough and Internal Challenges (04:46–06:37)

• Derrick highlights the risk and difficulty in shifting investigative focus from victim to perpetrator—especially in a high-profile, multi-year case:

  "You’re accusing the quote, unquote victim. ... If you're wrong, you’re getting demoted to basically the crossing guard duty." (04:46, Derrick)

• Stephanie and Derrick discuss the professional friction when current investigators must question the work of their predecessors.

Timeline Analysis—When Did Cari Disappear? (07:00–09:21)

• Cari’s last known activity:
  • Nov 13, 2012, 6:15am: Calls work from Dave’s place—last time anyone hears her voice.
  • 6:39am: Facebook login from work laptop.
  • 9:54am: Facebook login from phone and Dave unfriended; abrupt shift in communication style.
• The critical window for her disappearance is between 6:40–9:54am.

Patterns in Liz’s Past Relationships (24:04–34:41)

• Stephanie details Liz’s childhood traumas and a pattern of manipulative, controlling, and jealous behaviors in all her relationships.
• Liz had a son, Cody, with Ray; Cody died of shaken baby syndrome while Liz’s boyfriend Neil was convicted—still, many (including Ray) believe Liz was the actual perpetrator.
• Evidence of falsified letters allegedly from Neil, consistent with Liz’s penchant for impersonation.

Escalating Manipulation and Stalking (34:41–42:27)

• Liz’s attempts to entwine herself in the lives of her partners: applying for Cari’s job, trying to acquire Cari’s furniture, dating multiple men, and even stalking Dirk and his subsequent partner Melissa.
• Notably, Liz enrolled in Melissa’s college program, got similar hair and car, and committed identity theft—demonstrating an extreme form of stalker behavior.

Law Enforcement Technology & Systemic Barriers (43:38–46:43)

• Derrick explains how disconnected databases across police departments make it nearly impossible to spot dangerous patterns in serial offenders like Liz:

  "Unfortunately...we don’t have the connection to their internal databases. ... The only way to get that information would be to literally call around to every municipality…" (42:49, Derrick)

• The hosts express frustration that modern technology hasn’t closed these gaps, emphasizing the need for improved systems.

Liz's Relationship Web & Manipulations (47:42–54:05)

• Despite dating an IT specialist for the sheriff’s department (Todd), Liz kept him, Dave, and others in her circle simultaneously—often for financial gain.
• In addition, Liz catfished a woman online, further demonstrating her compulsion for deceit and manipulation:

  "Liz was so convincing that she let this woman believe she was in a committed, loving relationship..." (49:48, Stephanie)

Commentary on Gender Dynamics and Manipulation (51:04–56:34)

• The hosts exchange long, candid views on dating psychology and the roles of gender and self-esteem in susceptibility to manipulative personalities like Liz.
• Stephanie:

  "Men will take sex... They’re so sexually driven. They’re so lustful. It doesn’t matter to them..." (51:26)

• Derrick counters, emphasizing not all men are like that and expressing disbelief at Liz's long-term hold on so many partners.

Delving Into Liz’s Stalker Career and Crime Pattern (57:40–61:57)

• Liz’s impersonation of Cari was a full-time obsession as she juggled elaborate ruses, vandalism, and relationship sabotage. She simultaneously kept up the persona of a perpetually persecuted victim.

About the Investigation—Tracking Digital Evidence and Mistakes (19:13–23:38)

• Fingerprint match: Liz’s print was the only one found in the Ford Explorer, a key missed clue.
• Discussion about how the print should have been checked early, but only became relevant after Liz was under suspicion.

The Turning Point: The Stolen Gun and the Shooting (77:31–85:51)

• After Dave definitively ends things, his apartment is broken into and his gun stolen—details that detectives in neighboring jurisdictions failed to share.
• Liz files harassment claims against Dave’s ex, Amy, and shifts her narrative, now casting Amy as the stalker.
• In a dramatic twist, Liz is found shot in the thigh in a park, claims Amy did it. The hosts conclude that Liz has escalated her tactics to an extreme.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Derrick, on the risk for investigators:

"For you to turn around and go, wait a second, you’re no victim, you’re actually the offender. You better be right." (04:46)

Stephanie, on Liz’s manipulative behavior:

"Liz always seemed to have someone doing something for her. She always seemed to have more than one man in her life." (28:26)

On the system’s failure to connect the dots:

"If what was happening with Liz was happening with Liz, and what was happening with Carrie was happening with Carrie, and the police had looked into Liz and they were like, oh, hey, she stalked an ex boyfriend and then she took over his new girlfriend's identity and did this ... this would have made this a lot quicker and easier." (44:49, Stephanie)

On the effort Liz put into her deception:

"Stalking Dave and herself had essentially become a full time job. ... Some messages had been scheduled in advance through apps so Liz could be physically with Dave while making it appear that both of them were receiving threatening messages from Carrie at the exact same time." (60:35, Stephanie)

Derrick, on Liz’s lack of remorse:

"If she’s killing her kid, she’s definitely willing to kill some pets." (74:39)

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Important Timestamps & Segment Highlights

• 01:56 — Episode recap and evidence breakthrough (photo of Cari's vehicle)
• 04:46–06:37 — The detective’s internal/political risk in pursuing Liz
• 07:00–09:21 — Analysis of Cari’s last verified activities; establishing murder window
• 19:13–23:38 — Fingerprint evidence recap and discussion about missed law enforcement opportunities
• 24:04–34:41 — Liz’s troubling relationship history and potential involvement in her son’s death
• 42:49–46:43 — Deep dive into law enforcement database and communication challenges
• 51:04–56:34 — Gender dynamics, relationships, and manipulative personalities
• 57:40–61:57 — The extraordinary lengths of Liz’s Carrie impersonation and escalation in her campaign
• 73:53–75:42 — The arson: Liz burns her own house, kills her pets, to further cement her ‘victim’ status
• 77:31–85:51 — The case boils over: stolen gun, framing Amy, and Liz’s self-inflicted gunshot

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Tone & Style Notes

The episode is a mix of detailed, procedural breakdowns and personal commentary. Stephanie leads the narrative with strong empathy and sharp observational humor; Derrick offers investigative experience and measured skepticism. Their dynamic is candid, occasionally irreverent, and always analytical—balancing grim subject matter with engaging personalities and moments of levity.

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Conclusion

Part 3 of the Cari Farver series underscores both the meticulous and obsessive nature of Liz’s crimes and the systemic gaps that enabled them. Detectives Avis and Doty’s dogged persistence is contrasted against earlier investigative oversights. The hosts leave the audience with a chilling cliffhanger: Liz, having failed to maintain control, has now physically harmed herself to frame another woman, further demonstrating how far she will go. Part 4 promises resolution to a case that continues to astonish both hosts and listeners.

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For listeners new to the case, this episode provides a thorough, gripping exploration of a 'crime within a crime,' showcasing the dangers of unchecked manipulation and the importance of persistence—and teamwork—in justice.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

[B]

And I'm Derek Levasseur.

[A]

And we are diving into part three of the Carrie Farver case today.

[B]

You know what's weird, though? Like, I feel like Inception right now, because as we're recording this, we're recording it early. You and I are literally standing together right now at crimecon talking to some of you guys.

[A]

Well, I don't get the Inception reference, because I never really did get Inception.

[B]

Like, Inception's awesome.

[A]

A world instead of a world or something.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I feel like we're. We're inside the world we're talking to, because right now, there might be people who are sitting at CrimeCon waiting to come downstairs to hang out with us, but are also watching our video.

[A]

Did anybody get Inception?

[B]

Everybody did.

[A]

Like, if you got it, you're just pretending to get it.

[B]

Have you. You gotta watch it again. I don't wanna make it about Inception. You gotta watch it again. It's really, really good. But, yeah, if you're at. Super excited as of today, if you're listening on audio, it's Friday out there. And so today we are doing our live show, which is gonna be a really fascinating story. Stephanie's familiar with. What's the name of that case?

[A]

Stephanie Wassolution.

[B]

I can never say that last name, but it's hard.

[A]

But I've said so many times. It was hard at first, but I said it so many times.

[B]

Washolition.

[A]

Second. Washolition.

[B]

Washolition.

[A]

Wassilition.

[B]

Wasserlichen.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Okay. And her daughter, Nikki.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Right. She's gonna be there with us. And then on Saturday, we're gonna have. We're doing. We're officiating a wedding.

[A]

Yes, we are.

[B]

For one of you guys, a Crime Weekly fan who's gonna be out there, and we also are doing something super secretive that we have been keeping under wraps. It's gonna be in a later episode, but we're gonna be doing that as well Saturday morning.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yep. We think you guys are gonna be really surprised by that. So a lot of good things in the works, and. Yeah. Yeah. Now we can dive into the episode.

[A]

All right, so I'm going to give you a quick recap, all right. Because it's part three, but a lot's happened. And. And I remember at the end of part two, Derek was like, hey, this is. This feels like where it should end. Like, they've identified the person. And. But. But it's not because there's two more parts, because it's A case within a case.

[B]

Yeah, it's crazy to me. We were saying it. Yeah, there you go. Another reference. And we were saying it on cwn like it's, it's interesting because I did think that was going to be the end. And not only is it not the end, but there's a part four to this. And I was saying in Crime Weekly News, how is there a part four to this story? We know who did it. We've known who did it for a while now. And yet you keep proving me wrong that there is so much more that we haven't covered yet.

[A]

Yeah, well, Liz can't go out like that. All right.

[B]

I feel like she's going out guns blazing.

[A]

But there's complexities to Liz. Liz is an inception.

[B]

Okay. All right. Well, we'll see.

[A]

Okay. For more than two years, 37 year old Carrie Farver appeared to be missing, but alive. Right. Her phone stayed active. Her Facebook page continued posting. And the people closest to her, including Dave Krupa, the man she had briefly dated, he was receiving thousands of texts, emails and threats that seemed to be coming directly from Carrie. So police believed Carrie had become obsessed with Dave, which caused her to launch a relentless stalking campaign against him and his sort of traffic trauma bond girlfriend Liz Goiler and anyone else who got close to him, like anyone else he would date. But Carrie's family never believed it. They knew something was wrong. By 2015, after years of unanswered questions, detectives Ryan Avis and Jim Doty reopened Carrie's case and started from the beginning. And they brought in digital forensics administrator Anthony Kava to help. And as they reviewed phone data, emails and thousands of digital files, disturbing inconsistencies began to emerge. Then they found something that changed everything. And that was a photo of car's missing Ford Explorer on Liz's phone. And this was taken after Carrie vanished but before the vehicle had been recovered. And if you remember, it was recovered in Dave Krupa's apartment complex parking lot. And it was covered in snow and everything. And Dave was like, it definitely was not there before the blizzard.

[B]

Right, right. So that's not good for Liz. And that kind of ties it together. Where. How would you have access to this photo if nobody knew where the car was?

[A]

So detectives then came to a shocking conclusion. Liz Goiler was not another victim in car stalking campaign. They believe Liz had been impersonating Carrie, stalking both herself, like Liz was stalking herself and Dave, and was responsible for Carrie's disappearance and suspected murder. And for the first time in more than 900 days, which please understand, it's over two years, basically. Yeah, it's incred. It's crazy. It's just incredibly crazy. Finally, after two years, a thorough investigation was underway.

[B]

And I, and I will say this, it's easy for us to sit here and go, yeah, this is, this is obviously what happened. But I'll tell you internally, for Dodie and Avis, this is something you have to be very certain about, because essentially what you're doing is you're accusing the quote, unquote victim. Right. And this is someone who probably had a lot of sympathy coming their way, someone who everyone felt bad for. So for you to turn around and go, wait a second, you're no victim, you're actually the offender. You better be. Right? Because this is the type of thing, if you're wrong, you're getting demoted to basically the crossing guard duty.

[A]

I mean, especially after two years of nothing happening and other police officers being on it. Avis and Doty are probably like, wait, how did they miss this?

[B]

Yes. And that's the other thing, right? That's a great dynamic you're bringing up. Like there's been other people who've worked this case and, and completely missed it. So now you're not only accusing the victim, but you're second guessing the work of your peers. And for us, not obviously it has to be done, but we also have to acknowledge that dynamic. And regardless of what's the walls, what workforce you're in, it applies everywhere. When you go over to your colleague and you say, hey, I think you got this one wrong. It can create some problems. And so you're seeing these people every day. So shout out to Dodi and Avis for doing the right thing.

[A]

Yeah. Avis and Dodie, dynamic duo.

[B]

Yep. So sounds like a TV show.

[A]

I know. I was thinking, I was like, like a company, you know, shout out to Avis.

[B]

Avis is a company.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Rental car.

[A]

All right, so Detectives Avis and Doty looked closely at the timeline. They tried to figure out exactly when Carrie had been murdered, because by now they believed, yeah, she would have to be deceased in order for Liz to be impersonating her and having access to her social media and her phone and her car. So as we've talked about, on Monday, November 12, 2012, Carrie started staying with Dav. She was working on a special project at work and she was having her mom watch her son Max for a little while. So she went to the office that day. She left later that night sometime between 8pm and 9pm records from her work laptop and phone showed that at 6:15 the following morning, Carrie called work from Dave's place to provide an update that would end up being the last time anyone ever heard Car's voice. Then at 6:39am so not long after she calls work, her laptop logged onto Facebook and then logged off just three minutes later. So Carrie should have gone into work within the next few hours, but she never showed up. There was no additional data until 9:54am when Carrie's phone logged onto Facebook and Dave Krupa was immediately unfriended. Then just a few minutes later, Dave got that unexpected text. Remember where he said Carrie texted him when he was at work, and she was like, hey, we should move in together. And he was like, no. And almost immediately, another message came from Carrie saying, like, well, I hate you and we're done. I don't want to see you anymore. Don't call me. So Detectives Avis and Doty noted that while no one ever heard Car's voice again, her phone continued reaching out to people. The problem was these messages sounded completely different. So I almost. When I'm looking at the timeline, 6:39am her laptop logs onto Facebook, logged off a few minutes later. Carrie should have gone into work within the next few hours. She never showed up. And then it was 9:54 when her phone logged into Facebook. And then on unfriended Dave, this is when I believe she's. She's no longer in charge.

[B]

This is already in possession of the phone. So we're looking at a window from 6:40 to essentially 9:50. The window where whatever happened occurred.

[A]

Yep. These messages that are going out after this do not sound like Carrie. She's not the sweet, caring person that everyone knew. In her place was someone mean, angry, and harassing people in ways that were completely out of character. No one who knew Carrie but well at least believed it was actually her behind those messages. Because at this point, Dave doesn't really know Carrie all that well. You know, he thinks he does, but they've been dating for a few months. He likes her, but he's also seen that, you know, people can switch up on you. So the people who knew Cari well, though, they knew something was wrong. But like we talked about before, the original detectives on the case did not agree. Based on the timeline they had so far, Detectives Ava and Doty believed that Liz had killed Cari sometime after she called into work and before 9:54am when activity resumed on her phone. Liz then tried to become Carrie. But Liz didn't just impersonate her. Detectives believed she killed Carrie, then used that impersonation to stalk Dave, Carrie's family, and even herself over the next three years.

[B]

Wow. Sicko.

[A]

And so Ava S and Dodie had made progress in building out this new theory, but they still had no idea exactly how or where Carrie had been murdered. Had Liz broken into Dave's apartment and done something to carry there? Which would have been my theory. Did Liz wait until Carrie walked out to her vehicle to go to work? Or was it something else entirely and at that point they weren't sure?

[B]

This is definitely a question I have too, at this point. Right. Like it I. You would think it would happen in Dave's apartment because that's how Liz would get access to her, but then you would think forensically there'd be something there. Or at minimum, because Dave's not in on it. Up to this point, at least as far as I know, Dave would have come into his apartment and seen some signs of struggle, something that was out of place that wasn't like that before he left. So.

[A]

Well, no, because remember the first date they had? Dave brought Carrie back to his apartment and they were, you know, like putting on the candles, drinking the wine. And then Liz shows up and she's like, I need my stuff. And Dave's like, oh, it's just a crazy girl I used to date. Like, let me take care of this. And then Carrie walked out past Liz. So now a Liz knows what Carrie looks like, Carrie knows what Liz looks like, Carrie knows in some context who Liz is. So maybe Liz shows up, knocks on the door, and Carrie answers it and she's like, I forgot my coat here or I need my medicine.

[B]

She goes in the apartment and so

[A]

Carrie's like, okay, yeah, come in. Like, cuz what's she going to do? What's she going to say? This isn't her apartment, you know, and

[B]

she would know if there was security cameras or anything there because she's been there before.

[A]

Okay, but you're right. The smartest way would be for Liz to wait for Carrie to leave and then be waiting in her explorer. Cuz now we know she has a picture of the explorer and the explorer goes missing with Carrie.

[B]

Yep. Wait in the back seat or whatever. Yeah, I'm interested to see how that plays out. Because we always thought whatever happened, happened in the proximity of Dave's apartment. But nothing was out of the ordinary. No blood, nothing. I don't know. I'm. That's one of the parts I'm interested To hear about.

[A]

Liz would have to be watching Dave and Carrie pretty closely to know that Carrie was spending the night at Dave's apartment for more than one night because she was staying there for a project.

[B]

Not a shock. She's stalking this dude for sure. And probably stalking Carrie as well.

[A]

Gary, she knows where she works and everything, right? So as detectives kept digging, they learned that on Thursday, November 15, Liz filled out an application for Carrie's job using her legal name. So this is two days after she goes missing where now Liz is filling out a job application at the place where Carrie works.

[B]

Crazy. Crazy. I don't know what the rationale is. I'm looking. I'm looking forward to hearing that excuse.

[A]

So the following day, Carrie's mom Nancy reported Carrie missing. Then just one day after that, Nancy received that strange text from Carrie's phone with a photo of the five thousand dollar starter check made out to carry with bedroom set written on the memo line. The message said Nancy should let a friend come pick up Carrie's furnit. Nancy said no and passed all of that information along to the original investigators. But like so many other things in this case, it didn't go anywhere. Now, with fresh eyes on the case, detectives looked at that check again. And they immediately noticed something that stood out. The person who signed it was none other than Shayna Goer, who we know as Liz. Remember, that's Liz's real first name, but she goes by Liz. So to detectives, the whole thing was really bizarre. Liz had tried to get Car's job and she used her real legal name. And now she appeared to be trying to get her furniture too. And she's signing with her real legal name. So it almost felt like Liz believed she could somehow step into Carrie's life and take over and was herself as herself. Because it was even stranger that Liz had done all of that using her real name. And somehow, once again, the first detectives on the case never put two and all of them together.

[B]

Phillips.

[A]

Yeah, and amongst other.

[B]

I mean Phillips man.

[A]

Sergeant Phillips.

[B]

Sergeant Phillips, who is in, from what we can tell, in a leadership or managerial role overseeing doie and Avis.

[A]

As far as.

[B]

Been some uncomfortable conversations, huh?

[A]

Yep. So based on everything they were uncovering, Avis and Dodie felt like they were finally on the right path to figuring out what happened to Carrie. But feeling confident in having enough evidence to arrest someone for a murder are two very different things. Like you said, now what you know, she's been a victim. She's been a victim for two years. A horribly harassed Victim. Somebody tried to set her house on fire. They called her kids ugly. Okay. Bad, bad stuff happening here.

[B]

I'll tell you what. It's. It's scary. I've never had something like that come up while on the job where I. It turns out that a victim was actually a perpetrator. The only example I have is traitors and is. I called out a guy on the show, and I was very certain about it, but I was sweating bullets because I knew if I was wrong, it was gonna be one of the most embarrassing moments in reality tv. As a former detective, so the. The. The risk here and the. The weight of what they're doing is so much higher than that. And I was shitting bricks, so I can't imagine what this is like, not only to call this person out, but to essentially say, hey, boss. Sergeant Phillips, you did a terrible job on this case.

[A]

But, I mean, we have seen multiple instances in true crime all the time where the victim turns out to be the perpetrator. Right. Casey Anthony, allegedly, in my opinion. Gypsy Rose Blanchard. What the. Sherry Papini. Right.

[B]

Yeah, to a lesser degree. We're just talking about it, but, like Mackenzie Shrilla.

[A]

Yeah. All of these cases where. Or something happens to the children and then it turns out to be the parents who did it, and they were, you know, sitting there crying in front of the cameras. Chris Watts. Okay. Oh, yeah, this is pretty common.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it was very strange. But at that point, detectives Avis and Doty, they still didn't have enough to charge Liz. And the last thing they wanted to do was tip her off that she was under suspicion. But so they kept digging. All right, so that's kind of where I think they did the right thing here. Because if I was Liz, even from the beginning, when I was dealing with Phillips and. And all the other people, I would have been nervous, like, how are they not putting two and two together? Like, how are they not figuring this out? And these two detectives are kind of picking up the case, and they're not really telling Liz or anyone that they're looking into it now because she thinks at this point, she's in the clear. She's gotten away with this for two years.

[B]

I don't know how big this department was. I almost have a feeling that Avis and Doty may not have directly under Phillips. And we're working this laterally.

[A]

I almost wonder if they told anybody that they were doing it.

[B]

Yeah, they might have been just doing their thing, and they may have had a difference.

[A]

Maybe they didn't want to alert anyone

[B]

in the department either because they don't know who knows and who's in on it or whatever. So they keep it under wraps. They work it kind of laterally with whatever other cases they're working until they start to actually get some substance to what they're thinking.

[A]

And then especially when they find out someone in the digital forensics department is kind of connected to Liz. Right. So now they're like, okay, who else is a mole here?

[B]

I agree.

[A]

Who else is a traitor?

[B]

I would love to talk to them because I bet this is a story within a story that there was some stuff going on internally that that would be like, yeah, that would be a freaking Netflix special where there was some. There was some power dynamics there that Avis and Doty had to navigate as they were doing this. It sounds like.

[A]

I feel like there always is anyways.

[B]

There. There is. There absolutely is. And it's unfortunate because these are. There's people's lives on the line here and shouldn't be like that. This should be the job. It shouldn't be.

[A]

This is honestly why I don't like working in kind of systems like this where, like, what we do is great because it's like you and me and we are responsible for everything that happens and there's not like some hierarchy we have to check with or be careful or tiptoe around. I don't. I don't function well in that. And I feel like in general, the results of anything that comes out of system like that are always watered down and sort of based on politics or like work dynamics. I don't like it, but we're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. You know what's weird? People will sleep badly for years and then they kind of just decide that's normal. Like something unhealthy becomes normalized.

[B]

I was there. I was 100% there before we got Helix. Waking up sore. I'm overheated. I'm just tossing around all night and I'm thinking, ah, you know, it's just me. I'm a bad sleeper.

[A]

When we switched to Helix, the difference was immediate. I stopped waking up constantly during the night, which is also a big thing because I'm getting so much better quality and quantity of sleep. My back feels better. I actually started feeling rested in the morning instead of exhausted before the day even started. And it was kind of like being a kid again. Like bright eyed, bushy tailed, ready to go.

[B]

Yeah. And one thing that I think is underrated is the cooling upgrade. That really helps me as well. I'm a hot sleeper, so having that, I feel like I sleep better at night just because of it.

[A]

It. What I really like about Helix is they don't do the one mattress fits everyone thing. They have over 20 different mattress models. So whether you sleep on your side, back, stomach, whatever, there's something that actually fits your sleep style. I mean, we both have the midnight luxe, I think.

[B]

Yeah. And we've had it for years and it's still. There's no like sag in it. Nothing.

[A]

Yep. And the process is super easy. You're going to take this sleep quiz, which takes a couple minutes. Well, do you sleep on your side, do like a firmer mattress, etc. Etc. And then it ships right to your door for free. The setup takes minutes and you get a 120 night sleep trial, which means you can sleep on it at home for 120 nights. If you don't know by then whether or not it's for you, we got bigger problems. Plus, you're going to get a limited lifetime warranty, so there's really no pressure. And Helix has these lifetime warranties on all of their mattresses, which is cool.

[B]

And definitely check out the cooler upgrade option. That's someone. If you're a warmer sleeper, you're going to love it. It made a huge difference for me. And right now, if you're looking to upgrade your sleep, it's a great time to do it. All you have to do is head over to helixsleep.com crimeweekly for 27% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com crime weekly for 27% off sitewide.

[A]

Okay, we're back. So like we talked about in part two, when the digital forensics guy Caval went through Liz's phone data, which she'd let them download, he found a photo of car's Ford Explorer during the period it had been missing before it was officially found. So Avis and Dodie decided to go back to the vehicle evidence and see if they could tie Liz to the Ford Explorer more directly. Now, previously remember, a single fingerprint had been recovered from inside the Explorer. Everything else was wiped down. Carrie's fingerprints weren't even found in the Explorer. But this single fingerprint had been found on a mint container. And they said that the fingerprints weren't on file, meaning nobody had left the fingerprint. Who had been in the system, who had committed a crime, had been fingerprinted. So detectives had that print tested against Liz's fingerprints and. And it Came back as a match. Surprise, surprise to no one.

[B]

Love it.

[A]

Which, once again, though, this could have been done when the Ford Explorer was found. Like, this could have. This could have been done.

[B]

Well, at that point, they. Liz wasn't on the radar.

[A]

Yeah, but how did. How did Avis and Dodie get Liz's fingerprints? Right. If they're not asking her, it makes it sound like they already had access to them.

[B]

They could have had access to them. Or again, maybe there's more to the story where they met up with her, or they found something that she was holding on to.

[A]

A mug, or they, like, sat outside her house and waited for her to throw a coffee cup out or something.

[B]

Yeah, something like that. But they could have her come in and say, hey, we just need a little bit more information on this case. We're trying to track down Carrie. We know she's stalking you. You know, you put a couple bottles of water, some mugs in front of her, whatever. You do something where she's going to have to touch something or you even just say directly, hey, we need to take your prints just as exclusionary prints, you know, just so we have them on file. So if we find your print anywhere, we can rule it out as a.

[A]

What would you feel if you found out that somehow the police department already had Liz's fingerprints at some time around when the Ford Explorer was taken into custody or shortly after?

[B]

It'd just be an oversight.

[A]

That would be an oversight.

[B]

Yeah, oversight in the, like, a bad way. Right. Like, that's. They should have done that. It should have been something that was ruled out to say, okay, just. We're just canceling every. The same way you cancel out detectives prints and crime scene texts that are on scene. You do that to say, hey, we know for certain that this print doesn't belong to anybody else that we've already talked to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, no, that'd be an oversight. I would want to know how they got that print, because I don't think she has a previous criminal history, so.

[A]

Well, they just didn't. Right. Because they said, well, they weren't in the system.

[B]

Right. She wasn't in aphis, so I don't know how they would have gotten them.

[A]

Here's what I'm thinking, because she was the, quote, unquote, victim of all this stalking. So, remember, the fire was set at her house, and I wonder if they came in, like arson investigators and fingerprinted the house to see who. Who fire. And then obviously, they have to take Liz's fingerprints to exclude her Fingerprints. Because she lives there. So maybe that's how they got the fingerprints.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. The exclusionary prints just have her come in and say, hey, you know, we just were doing the crime scene stuff, and we just got to have your prints on file. So we can say, yeah, it's definitely. This isn't a suspect print, because that belongs to Liz.

[A]

No, but I don't think they did that, like, surreptitiously. Like, we're going to get her fingerprint so we can compare them. I think that was already done as part of the arson investigation, because it would have had to have been. It's a criminal case. You're.

[B]

How would they know if they had an unidentified print that they didn't ask her about or didn't get a comparison print?

[A]

So listen, the fire getting set at Liz's house, and then the. The Avis and Dodie checking the fingerprints are two separate things. So the fire gets set at the house, and Liz is saying, carrie set this fire. Right. So they have to go in and fingerprint it anyways, like even the insurance company will have.

[B]

So you're saying they got those prints.

[A]

Those prints. And then they had to say, liz, we need your fingerprint because we have to exclude whatever fingerprints are yours so we can figure out which ones aren't yours. So we can see who was in your house. So they already had her fingerprints on file, so now Dodie and Avis are able to pull those and check them.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, if that's what happened, that's. Again, why wasn't that done initially?

[A]

Why wasn't it done initially? Right. Or as soon as they had Liz's fingerprints, why wouldn't somebody be like, hey, let's check that against the random fingerprint that. You know what I mean? So that's interesting, but we now have the match of Liz's fingerprints in Carrie's Ford Explorer. The only fingerprint there on a random mint thing that nobody.

[B]

And someone she does not have a prior relationship with, no excuse for her fingerprint being inside that vehicle.

[A]

Somebody who claims they're being harassed by her. So what the hell were you doing in her car? Right, so it still wasn't enough for charges, though. Okay? And so Avis and Dodie, they kept investigating, and they learned everything they could about Liz and her background. And this is when the story starts to unravel. This is when the real darkness rears its head. So Shayna Elizabeth Goiler was born on June 28, 1975, in Kalamazoo, Michigan, to her mother, D. And Father Al. Around a year later, after her birth, D and Al welcomed a son named George. But things were not good at home. Al was abusive, and by early 1978, things had gotten bad enough that Liz and George were removed from the home home. Then just a few months later, tragedy struck again when Liz's mother, D, was hit by a car and killed by the the driver. So this was especially heartbreaking because she had just broken off things with her abusive husband, Al, and she was in the process of getting her kids back. In fact, at the time she was killed, D. Had been walking to a laundromat to wash their bedding because she was going to be having her children live with her again. It's. It's very sad, actually. Now, following their mother's death, Liz and George entered foster care. And Liz later alleged that she was abused in at least one of the homes she was placed in. Eventually, when Liz was around four or five years old, she ended up with a family in Battle Creek, Michigan, where she would end up staying. And not much is known about the rest of Liz's childhood. What we do know is that when Liz was barely 20 years old, she married her first husband. They did not have children, and they divorced within two years. By that point, it was 1997, and Liz was 22 years old and working at a plastic factory. She soon began dating a fellow co worker named Ray. Now, things were fine with Rey for a short time, but Ray quickly realized that Liz was unreasonably jealous about female co workers. For example, one time Ray had an innocent conversation with a woman at work, and Liz snapped at him, asking, quote, what did that want? End quote. This is something every man that Liz dated would later report that she was incredibly jealous. But Rey really liked Liz, and by that point, they'd already been living together, so it felt easier to just keep going with the relationship. Less than a year into dating, Liz got pregnant, and Ray bought a house for them to raise their family in. He expected Liz to be happy because he was settling down with her. They were having children, they were having a home they could build this family in. But Liz wasn't happy. So instead of moving into the new place with Rey, Liz moved into the home of a man named Neil. And she said Neil was just a roommate. But Ray didn't believe that, which is kind of crazy because it's very hypocritical for Liz to be mad that Rey's talking to a female co worker.

[B]

Yeah, but then she's living with a guy.

[A]

I'm pregnant with Your child and you bought a house for us to live in together. But I'm gonna live with my roommate, Neil.

[B]

Yeah, talk about a double standard, right?

[A]

Right. So obviously after the move, things became complicated. Sometimes Liz would stay with Rey, her boyfriend. Sometimes she stayed with Neil, her quote unquote roommate.

[B]

Roommate. The roommate.

[A]

The. The roommate.

[B]

And when they told you not to worry about.

[A]

Well, yeah, she's like, well, it's always the mo. The extremely jealous ones who are also kind of doing something right.

[B]

They say, why are they extremely jealous? Or why are they extremely possessive?

[A]

Yeah, it's projections. Because, like, they know what they're doing.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. They know that the ins and outs. They know how easy it is for them to lie to someone's face and to cheat. And so when they see their partner being around people of the opposite sex, it's like, oh, well, I know what you're doing because I'm doing it.

[A]

Not always. I will say to be fair. And I want to be fair. Not always. Sometimes when. When someone's been with someone who lied and cheated and, you know, they got gaslit for it with for years, and then they found out that everything they thought was true was true, that can

[B]

cause some, like, yeah, there could be some scar tissue there. But I think more times than not, if you are. You almost are. Should be a little naive to these ins and outs because you haven't experienced it. But when you're very familiar with it, I do think there's something to be said for thinking everyone's like you.

[A]

Oh, yeah. That's a human condition, actually. Yeah. Thinking everyone thinks the same as you and. Yes, exactly. So. So. So sometimes Liz is with Rey, her boyfriend, who she's having a baby with. And sometimes she's with her quote unquote roommate, Neil. And other times she would stay at a woman's shelter. So at one point, Ray started wondering, is this baby even mine? You know? But when their son Cody was born, those doubts quickly disappeared because Cody looked exactly like Rey. So Ray was like, all right, this is. This is fine.

[B]

It's mine.

[A]

It's got to be mine. I mean, unless maybe Neil looked like

[B]

that looks just like. Right. And she has a type.

[A]

You know, it's like, oh, Cody's got brown hair and brown eyes, just like me, Ray. But Neil also has brown hair and brown eyes. So, you know, it's a baby. But they're babies. We don't really know. But Ray loved Cody instantly and wanted to be around him as much as possible. But Liz kept him from the Baby who, by that point, she was clearly raising with a roommate, Neil. It was obvious that Neil and Liz were dating. And over the next few months, Ray only got to see Cody a handful of times. And instead of letting Rey help raise his son, Liz had other people caring for Cody, who was colicky. Cody was colicky and, you know, cried a lot. And, you know, it's a hard thing to deal with a baby like that. And probably Cody, as a colicky baby, would want to be with his mother or father. But Liz was like, no, I'm gonna make sure that Ray doesn't get to see his child as often as he would like. And Liz also had other people paying her bill, too. And this would soon become another theme with Liz. She always seemed to have someone doing something for her. She always seemed to have more than one man in her life. Sadly, In January of 1999, tragedy struck when Cody died, and he was just five months old. His cause of death was ruled shaken baby syndrome, and Liz's boyfriend, Neil, was arrested. At that time, though many people questioned whether Neil was actually responsible, they didn't think he was capable of killing Cody. He had helped care for babies in the past, including his own. And people who knew him described him as very caring. And because of that, some believed it was much more likely that Liz herself was responsible.

[B]

Considering the context of what we're talking about here and what it appears she's capable of, I think. I think those assumptions are valid. I don't know. I think they're.

[A]

That's rough. That's hard. Why did they. Why did they blame Neil? There had to have been some evidence.

[B]

I don't know what the context was behind that case, But I would imagine in many circumstances, when you have a woman there with a boyfriend who's not the father of the child, more than likely it's going to be the step parent who has the capacity to kill that child because it's not their own. And you look at Liz, and I'm sure she's a good actor. We know she's a good actor. She puts on a front where. Where maybe she did it put the baby back in the crib. And now Neil doesn't have an alibi. He doesn't have an excuse.

[A]

So maybe she made Neil believe he had done it right. Maybe we know she's manipulative, or maybe he did.

[B]

I don't know. But, you know, we all believe. I mean, it's not a secret by this point. We believe that Liz murdered Carrie.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We believe she's clearly Capable of taking life.

[A]

Yes. And she's also. Seems to be kind of selfish. Right.

[B]

100%. And maybe this baby, to her, Cody was, quote, unquote, a nuisance in her mind.

[A]

He was colicky. You know how hard a colicky baby is to.

[B]

She wanted to be free.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A la Casey Anthony. Wants to be free, wants to be able to do. Go out and do what she wants. And there's something standing in her way. Her child.

[A]

So, I mean, we know how nice she is to her own children that we. That she had when she, you know, was finally trying to capture Dave and she's sending him messages like, look at these ugly children. Even you were like, whoa, I could never. You know, even in that scenario.

[B]

No, no. It's like, that's bad car.

[A]

Yeah, that's not. That's not good. So. Yeah, I agree. There's. There's something going on there. And this was not just a theory that people were, like, you know, whispering on the outskirts. The theory that Liz was responsible for her child Cody's death. It even came up during trial when Neil's attorneys argued that Liz was the one who had killed Cody.

[B]

Oh, surprise, surprise.

[A]

And then Liz testified and read a series of letters she claimed Neil had written to her from prison. The letters were well written, and they talked about how much Neil loved her. And they also asked Liz if she would take the blame for Neil so he wouldn't have to go to jail for Cody's death. But the problem with Liz's testimony was that Neil had a learning disability. And according to his family, he was incapable of writing such long, eloquent letters. They did not believe the letters were real. And once again, given what we know about Liz and her. Her seemingly, like, very, you know, quick penchant to impersonate people and write messages from people who she is not, you know, to pretend she appears to be a pathological liar to get what she wants. Yes, that's. That's pretty likely. I would say. That's definitely likely. Those letters.

[B]

I'm too much of a stretch here.

[A]

Yeah. Those letters were not from Neil. So. So Neil's family and the people who knew him, they were like, no, we don't think Neil wrote those letters. Just like Carrie's family was like, she's not writing those messages. But the jury believed that Neil had written the letters. And in the end, Neil was convicted and spent nearly 10 years in prison. And to this day, multiple people, including Neil's family and Cody's father, Ray, and Cody's father Ray, believe that Liz was actually the one responsible for Cody's death.

[B]

And, well, now they know about all this other stuff too.

[A]

And that's pretty damning, I think, because Ray has. Was a. A motive or a reason, it would be understandable for him to be mad at Neil and not like Neil, not even if it's logical. Just like this is another man, and my girlfriend who was carrying my baby, was living with him, and they were definitely dating and something was going on. And then this man was raising my child, and this man was in, you know, the vicinity when my child was killed. And if I'd been there, like I should have been, this wouldn't have happened. So he has a reason to really not like Nate Neil, but he's defending Neil here. And he's like, yeah, Neil didn't do that. It was Liz. So that's interesting.

[B]

Yeah, I think my money is on Liz.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, if you. If you had to. If you. You asked me, like, you gotta say, do you think it was Neil or Liz? I'm gonna say Liz.

[B]

I say. I say Liz. I think he was colicky. I think he was a tougher baby to handle. She wanted to be out there doing her own thing. She probably got sick of Neil, just like she got sick of everybody else,

[A]

got sick of Ray and.

[B]

Yep, yep. And I think at some point she's

[A]

like, she gets sick of the matter who want to be with her.

[B]

Right, right, right. Yeah, exactly. They got to play hard to get. But once frustrations rose and she got angry, I think something happened, and I don't think she was that upset about it.

[A]

All right, we're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. I feel like skin care has gotten so overwhelming lately. Every time you open social media, someone's telling you that you need 17 different products layered in a very specific order.

[B]

Yeah. And for me, honestly, I want to make sure that. That I have a product that has been tested, has been researched, because like you said, you're putting it on your skin. And so it starts at first like a chemistry experiment where you're just trying to figure things out. And I don't like that. I don't like playing games or guessing with my body.

[A]

And that's exactly why I was drawn to one skin, because it's not about hype or complicated routines. It's about actual science, and it actually works. So the company was founded by PhD longevity researchers, and instead of just trying to temporarily cover up signs of aging, they focus on what's happening beneath the surface.

[B]

Yeah. And that's where the OS1 peptide comes in.

[A]

Yes, exactly. And this is the whole science of it. So what One Skin figured out was there's these things called sentient cells, and they actually also call them zombie cells. And these are the major driver of visible skin aging. So One Skin's OS1 proprietary peptide, it's designed to target specifically these cells. So instead of just moisturizing the surface, you're supporting your skin barrier and collagen at a deeper level.

[B]

Yeah. And I'll tell you guys, no joke. Stephanie talks about One Skin all the time. She was just saying how she missed her month because she forgot to change her credit card. So this is definitely something you're using, Right?

[A]

Stephanie, we're going to Vegas next week for CrimeCon. And what if I don't have it with me? What am I going to do? I love their eye cream so much. It has been the only thing that's really worked and shown a visible difference in my eyes. I can say that, hands down, the product's great.

[B]

And it's not just Stephanie saying it. It has a lot of studies behind it. They've been peer reviewed in clinical studies. They have over 10,000 five star reviews, and they've been recognized as a leader in skin longevity. So it feels a lot more grounded in real research than some of the other skin care products out there.

[A]

Yep. Born from over a decade of longevity research, One Skin's OS1 peptide is proven to target the visible signs of aging, helping you unlock your healthiest skin now. And as you agent, for a limited time, you can try one skin with 15 off using code crime weekly at OneSkin co. Crime weekly one more time. That's 15 off at OneSkin co with Code Crime Weekly. And after you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know we sent you. So not long after Neil went to prison, Liz moved to Nebraska and had another child, this time a daughter. Now, very little is known about who the girl's father was. What we do know is that when the daughter was around two years old, Liz started dating a man named Dirk. Not long after they got together, Liz got pregnant again. So Dirk later told author Leslie Rule that he didn't particularly like Liz because she was extremely jealous, but he wanted to stay together for the sake of the baby. Okay, so here's. Let me break this down. Liz moves to Nebraska. She's pregnant again.

[B]

We don't need a Venn diagram for this.

[A]

We don't really know who the father of this this daughter was, then she dates Dirk, gets pregnant again by Dirk. So now technically over the course of just a few years she has dated Rey, Neil and then Cody was allegedly raised son but she was also dating Neil. And now she gets pregnant by someone else and then she's not dating that person anymore and she's dating Dirk and then she gets pregnant by Dirk. So it almost kind of feels like maybe. Does Liz feel like the way to trap these men or get them connected to her is by having a child with them?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

100.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Either that or she just doesn't believe in contraception. That's also an option as well. Like maybe, I mean maybe she's just out there and she's just like, oh I'll, you know, she, we're all adults here. She's just maybe a really bad at the pull out method. I don't know.

[A]

I don't know man. Because back in the day before there was contraception, you know, there would be women knew they were like hey, I can't have 55 kids. You know, like we can't afford it. It's the Great Depression, whatever. Like they knew how to make sure that those things wouldn't happen and they, they were certain methods like if you, if you don't want to get pregnant there's, it's, it's, there's a thing called birth control and there, and, and condoms and things like that. But there's also other things you can do, right? There's other things you can do.

[B]

Last time I checked it worked pretty good.

[A]

And, and yes, accidents happen. But this doesn't seem like accident.

[B]

This is not. No, exactly. So I don't think 90. What's success rate for birth control? Like 97. I don't know.

[A]

Know like if you have to be taking it correctly and stuff. But yeah, not even that. Like there's the morning after pill and things like that. So I, I know I, I feel like there's going to be of course people who are like yelling at me and mad because I say you don't get pride. I don't, I don't mean people don't get pregnant if they don't want to. I mean that like they don't get pregnant this often if they don't want to in this short amount of time.

[B]

If you get pregnant once and it's an accident, you probably learn from that and take more precautions in the future. It doesn't seem like that's the case here.

[A]

This is three pregnancies in the course of a few Years.

[B]

And real quick, just because I don't want to be confused here, it was Ray, then Neil, then there was another person, another dude.

[A]

And then.

[B]

And she got pregnant by him.

[A]

She got pregnant by other dude, got

[B]

rid of other dude and then, and

[A]

then got rid of other dude and then has gets pregnant again with Dirk.

[B]

Yeah, got it. Got it.

[A]

So what? That's what I'm saying. Just a few handful of years, lots of pregnancies happening. Okay. But I'm, I'm sure somebody will still be mad at me. So. But remember Dirk told author Leslie Rule, I didn't really like Liz. You know, she was very jealous. But I wanted to stay together for the sake of the baby. And isn't that kind of what Rey said too? Right?

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[A]

So as you would expect, after their son was born, things did not improve. Dirk stayed for as long as he could, but after around two years, he couldn't take it anymore. He moved out. Out. A few weeks later, Dirk met someone named Melissa and they started dating almost immediately. Liz started showing up unexpectedly at Dirk's place. She also sent threatening messages, keyed Melissa's car, and did whatever she could to interrupt their relationship. Okay, so we've, we've seen this story before, but it kind of stops at the showing up unexpectedly at Dirk's place. We saw Liz show up unexpectedly at Dave's place when Dave was with Carrie. But it, there was really, you know, and then after this, Carrie got some, you know, had some spray painting happening on her car. But she really think anything of it. But it looks like with Liz and Carrie, Liz was almost like, okay, I'm not gonna do all this stuff as me because that didn't work out for me last time with Dirk, I'm gonna do it as Carrie. And maybe she does something similar with Melissa because as time passed, things escalated into full blown stalking. Liz enrolled in the same college program that Melissa was in and hair extension, so her hair looked more like Melissa's. She also bought a Mitsubishi just like Melissa drove and took it to the same auto shop Melissa used and told employees her name was Melissa. It was like Liz was trying to become Melissa. Dirk and the real Melissa were freaked out, but undeterred, they continued dating and eventually got married and had a baby. But even that didn't stop Liz. She continued stalking Melissa for years, escalating to the point of taking out a loan in Melissa's name. And eventually out of nowhere, Liz stopped stalking Melissa. And it's unclear why, but if I had to guess, it's because she Shifted her focus to someone else. But here's what I'm interested in. Was there police reports filed when Liz is stalking Melissa and doing all of this? Because this is pretty extreme, you know, like going in the same college program, taking out a loan in her name. At that point, you've reached criminal activity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Were there police reports filed?

[B]

If there had been, you would hope. Now, here's the thing. Even if there had been reports, if it's not something that rises to a level of a criminal matter, where they take it to trial, she's not found guilty of anything. More than likely, these files, these reports would be in this internal database. And unfortunately, and I don't even know the answer to solving this, but.

[A]

Because it wouldn't be the same city.

[B]

Yeah. So I'll just give an example where I'm from. So we're talking about Providence, Rhode Island. But if you are in Newport, Rhode island, which is a different police department, we don't have the connection to their internal databases. So even if there's a ton of history where if I searched her name at the time and it's in that other database, it would not flag on my end. The only way to get that information would be to literally call around to every municipality in your state, if it even happened in your state. And that's like, it's impossible to do that. It's impossible to just, hey, do you have any. Do you have any record for Stephanie Harlow? And then knowing that you could check every municipality, but if they. If she did something over in Connecticut or Massachusetts, you have to do those municipalities in those states as well.

[A]

And there's nothing that connects these, right?

[B]

Unfortunately not.

[A]

Should there be? Like, with. With where we are 20, 26 and AI and like all of that, like,

[B]

like it can be done. There's reasons it isn't. Right. So there's a lot to it. And some of it is privacy. Right. Like, well, some of it's logistics. Right. Like different departments use different systems. Like Central Falls uses imc. I know that Providence uses, I believe, Guardian. Like, there's all these different brands. It's almost like Google Drive. Right. But the other issue is those databases will also contain files that aren't. That shouldn't be shared publicly. So you could have juvenile cases, cases involving women who don't want their out there. And if you have someone who's nosy in another department, they would have access to that information. So there are certain reasons for it because it's really hard to track who's going into your databases. But I agree with you. I wish there was a way to quickly identify if someone else has had contact with other jurisdictions. Because as of right now, only if it gets to the level of ncic. Right. Which is our National Crimes Database case, where if they've been arrested or there's a restraining order, would you have the ability to search them.

[A]

Yeah, because this helps with your pattern recognition. Right. So if what was happening with Liz was happening with Liz, and what was happening with Carrie was happening with Carrie, and the police had looked into Liz and they were like, oh, hey, she stalked an ex boyfriend and then she took over his new girlfriend's identity and did this. And it's like, this is the same thing that's happening that Carrie is doing, but nobody's heard from Carrie. You know, this would have made this a lot quicker and easier. So it feels like with technology the way it is today, like there should be some way to put a bridge between these local police department municipalities.

[B]

I will say, when I was leaving in 2017, other departments that had the same program, IMC, there was something where you could put it in a different search where you could see the reference

[A]

number and call them and then be like, hey, hey, is there. I got this happening. Is anything similar like that in your database?

[B]

Oh, you're. It's even like if I have you come into my station and I type your name in for a report. When I type your name in for a report, it would say to me, hey, Newport Police Department has had an interaction with Stephanie. Here's the case number. If I wanted to look into it, I could call over there and say, hey, Detective Levasseur, can you pull up this case number for me? I'm working with Mrs. Harlow and I wanna. I wanna see if there's anything there that I should be aware of. So there was something in 2017, but again, being on different systems, it's hard to connect everyone.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, for things like this, I understand privacy reasons and all the other things you gave, but for things like this. Yeah, it would have made things a lot easier. Right.

[B]

Well, let's be honest. I don't wanna go off on a tangent here, but you have cops that aren't doing the right things, right? You have some stalker.

[A]

We're talking about one of them. In a second. Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so. And I don't even. I haven't even read the script, but there's stalker cops out there where they got a girlfriend in another municipality and they're running. They're checking her name to make sure she's not out with anybody or having interactions with someone.

[A]

True. Yeah.

[B]

So that's like the other issue to for this too. Like, not all cops are good and they're using these systems to for bad reasons. So it's a lot. It's a lot.

[A]

Well, this is kind of where we talk about, like, Liz, stop stalking Melissa. We don't know why, but we do know in the fall of 2010, Liz was in her mid-30s and dating Todd Butterbaugh. And we know that name because he worked in the I. T. Department for the sheriff's office. And Liz told Todd that men had mistreated her and used her in the past. So she had become disillusioned with relationships. And Todd was like, not me. Not me, Liz.

[B]

Poor baby. I got you.

[A]

I am the exception, not the rule. I will never hurt you. He said he would be different, and as far as he knew, do they then started an exclusive monogamous relationship. He had no idea that Liz was seeing other men at the same time and would continue doing so throughout the entirety of their relationship. And like she had with other men before him, Liz quickly showed Todd her jealousy and her insecurities. But because she said she'd been mistreated in the past, Todd tried to be understanding and he brushed a lot of it off. Todd felt. Felt so bad for Liz that he often paid her bills and watched her kids at night while she said she was working her house cleaning business.

[B]

Oh, man. Todd, Todd, you're getting played, bud.

[A]

Kind of feel bad for Todd, Todd.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

She's like, I'm gonna go clean some houses.

[B]

Yeah, she's cleaning something.

[A]

Why? Why you need Todd to pay your bills if you. If you have your own business. Jeez Louise.

[B]

Hey, maybe she was cleaning houses, but the houses of the other guys she was dating, meeting.

[A]

I'm sure she was cleaning houses. I'm sure she had a French maid outfit and everything.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

That's why. That's why Dave liked Liz so much. She was the best house cleaner there ever was. So Todd Butterbaugh and Liz, they never moved in together, though. At least not during this time frame. Then in the summer of 2012, Liz met Dave Krupa on a dating website and she started seeing him too. And then you gotta look at like, Todd Butterbaugh, right? He works in IT For a sheriff's department. And he's like, just so trusting. And he's not using his I. T. Skills to check on Liz and see if she's on dating sites. He just blindly believes her. Like, you should be able to do in a relationship. I feel bad for him. So obviously, Liz kept this relationship a secret from Todd Butterbile while at the same time pressuring Dave to date her exclusively. But Dave and Todd were not the only men in the picture. Liz was dating multiple men at once. And during that same time period, she also spent. Spent months catfishing a woman online while pretending to be a man. She is out of her mind. Liz was so convincing that she let this woman to believe she was in a committed, loving relationship and even convinced the woman to send nude photos to Liz, who she thought was, like, her male boyfriend. And this is just another example of how manipulative Liz could be. And also, like, just messing with people for the fun of it kind of seems like. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like, did you want Dave to be exclusive with you, or was it a game you were playing to see if you could make someone who didn't want to be in a committed relationship be in a committed relationship with you? Only for you to be like, psych, I'm dating, like, 12 other guys. Like, what's the. The thing here? What's the. What's the motive? Why would you catfish a woman online and make her think you were a man that was in love with her?

[B]

Well, she's a sick individual.

[A]

It seems like she's got something wrong out of it. Right?

[B]

Yeah, no, there's a gratification there that is not normal. She's. There's some enjoyment in this, I think, like, the. The anxiety that comes with it. Like, the, oh, I could get caught type thing. She probably embraces it. I don't know. I'll also say. And I'm quick to judge the appearances of men. I'm a little bit more cautious with women. But I just gotta say, I was looking up Liz a little while ago while you were talking, and I'm. I'm not seeing it. I'll just say that I'm not seeing why all these men are, like, so apt to. To sleep with her and have kids with her. I. I'm not seeing it. You guys can be the judge for yourself when you look it up, but not my. Not my type, that's for sure. Just saying. I see your face. You're, like, cringing.

[A]

No, I just. I don't know. I don't know how to, like, like. I don't know how to say this without making everyone sound bad, but remember the guy who was in our comment section and he was like, men will take sex, and then if they didn't, you know, the weirdo. I was like, you're a weirdo, dude.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

There's a lot of men like that where, like, it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter.

[B]

That's fair.

[A]

They're so sexually driven. They're so lustful. It doesn't matter to them. Like, there's no discernment. And I don't. I'm not. I'm not trying to talk negatively about men.

[B]

And I'm sure I'm getting uncomfortable in my chair.

[A]

Yeah, you're like, I have discernment.

[B]

I have to, like, defend this somehow.

[A]

I'm not trying to speak badly about men, but, like, once again, and we talked about this, I think in episode one of this case for women, I like to believe, at least for me, like, there has to be more than, like, a physical attraction. There has to be some sort of, like, I'm safe with you. We've emotionally driven in some vibe on, like, a different level. Like, there is a relationship here where I feel like we are. Where there's multiple things connecting us for the sex to be good. Right. Otherwise, it's just like random sex. And then, like. But men don't care. They like. They. Random sex is fine for men. A lot of men not. Or some.

[B]

Allegedly.

[A]

Some men. Allegedly. I'm not trying to speak in generalities, but, yeah, they don't care. Liz was down for anything. All right, here's.

[B]

Here's my. Here's my gripe. There may be people I know of who have had random encounters with a woman, and the sex is good, so you'll keep doing it, but as soon as there's a problem, it's not worth it anymore. It's like, okay, you know what? Not that good. Where with Liz, once these behaviors started showing themselves, I would think that at that point, you'd be like, you know what? I'm gonna. I'm gonna step away. I wasn't that attracted. I wasn't that into it anyways. My. I don't know why they kept coming back, including Dave. I don't know why they kept. Kept coming back.

[A]

Maybe because she was putting it out there. So it's just that good freaking men, they can't say no when it's right there convenient. They don't even have to work for it. Men used to be hunters, where it was like the whole, you know, like. Like motivation and the feeling of success afterwards was like, I went out and I got something, like a good game that was worth getting, and it was challenging. And now these men, they want princess treatment. They just want everything served up to them on a planner. And it doesn't matter if it's, it's. If it's a steak being served to them on a platter or some like, McDonald's chicken nuggets that we don't even know are real meat.

[B]

To be honest, Liz being a chicken nugget, not even a real chicken nugget, not even a chick fil.

[A]

A chick chicken nugget, Liz, is a McDonald's chicken nugget. You don't really know where it comes from, but you're hungry, so why the hell not? You know, why would I want to cook something and go out and, and pick some vegetables and hunt a boar when I can just eat these fake chicken nuggets. Nuggets that are, are presented to me and appear suddenly in front of me.

[B]

Oh, no, this is.

[A]

And listen, I, I don't like to talk badly about, in people in general, but if, if social media has taught me anything. Men these days, man, they, I mean,

[B]

I've heard the term like, oh, they're, they're. The girl was hot, so they put up with it.

[A]

But like, I don't know, maybe in a relationship way. Yeah, but these men don't want her for a relationship, you know, But I

[B]

just want a chicken nugget.

[A]

But when she, when they come over to their, to her house and she's jumping on them and they're like, well, it's here, the chicken nuggets here. And I am kind of hungry. I mean, I just ate, but I could eat again. This is why men are, are too driven by sex and lust now. And it's, it's a problem. It's a problem, okay? I don't respect it. I don't respect it anyways. Yeah, yeah, this is, you know, Liz is manipulative, but men, a lot of men are easy. You see men, and you see this into the celebrity world. These men, Jude Law and Sienna Miller is the perfect example. Jude Law had no business ever being with Sienna Miller. She's a goddess. And he cheats on her anyways. He cheats on her anyways with the nanny, okay? They just want their egos to be fed. They just want to know that somebody wants what's between their legs. Legs. And it makes them feel good about themselves because they don't have self esteem and they don't have confidence. And it's gross. And it's not.

[B]

Your honor. I object.

[A]

It's gross.

[B]

I object.

[A]

Your honor. It has nothing to do with the woman. It has to do with how they feel about themselves.

[B]

2% of the men watching this show. I'm here for you guys.

[A]

Look at Jude Law now, okay? You could have still been with Sienna Miller, who is still a goddess. But yeah, messed up because you.

[B]

I'm sure dudes don't already, right?

[A]

I. If you say so.

[B]

If Jude's a good looking guy.

[A]

Jude Law. Now listen, listen. Jude Law in the day, he could get it.

[B]

It's called. It's called aging, Stephanie. We all do it.

[A]

But he didn't age well. Now Henry Cavill aged well.

[B]

Jude Law is a lot older than Henry Cavill.

[A]

We're getting off Jude Law's hairline. Ran away with his marriage.

[B]

I mean, listen, it happens. It happens.

[A]

Well, I don't like, I don't like. I don't. I don't respect it. So. Yeah, it's like when men cheat on their beautiful, gorgeous goddess wives with women who. It's just like they're throwing themselves at them and they're just like there. It's like, what are you doing? But you know, that's. That's what men do. It's a man thing.

[B]

And I'm not saying we're talking about Liz.

[A]

I'm sure someone.

[B]

I don't know how this came up.

[A]

I'm sure some women do it too. I'm sorry. It is mostly a self esteem confidence issue. But men are more driven by sex,

[B]

I think because we. Liz is the. Is the bad guy here. Here.

[A]

Liz is definitely the bad guy here. Okay, I'm sorry. Don't get it twisted. Liz is definitely the bad guy. Okay.

[B]

Making sure.

[A]

So we know that Liz is out here manipulating men, catfishing and manipulating women. She's just doing it for the thrill of it. But Liz's behavior would only escalate when Dave started dating Carrie Farver in late October of 2012. And just like she had done with Dirk and Melissa years earlier, Liz did whatever she could to interfere with Dave and car's relationship. She called Dave incessantly while he was on dates, showed up at his apartment demanding her things, vandalized Carrie's car. And two weeks into Carrie and Dave seeing each other, Carrie started staying with Dave for her work project. Now, detectives Dodie and Davis believed that was the fact that kind of pushed Liz to the breaking point. Right? Because in their minds, stalking and harassing Carrie the way she had other victims was no longer enough. Because now it seems like Dave is committing to Carrie in a way that he never wanted to do with Liz. And the detectives believed Liz decided she had to get rid of Carrie. And that's exactly what happened on the morning of November 13th. Then Liz had to cover up the murder, and so she began impersonating and stalking Carrie. So we've talked about a lot here. We've had some good, stimulating conversations that probably get one or both of us

[B]

got undressed for a minute there. Jesus, this.

[A]

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I have opinions.

[B]

Clearly.

[A]

Let's take a quick break. We'll breathe. You can resettle in your seat. We'll be right back.

[B]

Get comfortable again.

[A]

Okay, we're back. So, using her Carrie impersonation, Liz contacted multiple people in Car's life. We know this, including Car's mom, Nancy, Car's son Max, and of course, Dave. And for around six weeks, though, Liz did not use the impersonation to contact anyone in her own life, like in Liz's life. But that changed on January 1, 2013, when she decided to take things a step further, and she started texting and emailing her own boyfriend, Todd. Now, the messages claimed Carrie was one of Liz's friends and that Liz had given her Todd's information in case she ever needed an emergency contact. And Todd thought that the whole thing was strange, and he asked Liz about it. And Liz told him that she and Cari were friends and said it was completely fine for them to talk. Weird. Now, of course, Todd had no idea that Carrie was really Liz. And over the next nine days, the two exchanged more than 200 texts. Most of the messages from the Carrie profile were flirtatious and critical of Liz, saying things like she was a bad girlfriend and Todd deserved better. The whole situation was bizarre. But when Avis and Dodie reviewed those conversations, they believed Liz had a plan in their minds. She was trying to get Todd emotionally invested in Carrie so he would stop demanding so much attention from Liz. That way, Liz could focus more of her time on Dave. This feels like hard work, really.

[B]

I. I agree that that's what she's trying to do. She's trying to basically get rid of him. Putting him on. Putting him on carry.

[A]

I was kind of trying to, like, maybe she's trying to see if Todd will, like, engage and will, like, talk crap about Liz and, like, flirt with Carrie.

[B]

I'm sure that's part of it. And if she did, then maybe Liz would want him more again.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

But I think that was part of it. I think it's like trying to put him on Carrie, also trying to fish to see if he talks about her. All of it.

[A]

I think it's all in Todd. If, I mean, I guess he's paying.

[B]

He's a sicko.

[A]

Yeah, he's paying her bills and watching her kids so she could do her house cleaning jobs. So.

[B]

And by the way, if, if he, if he quote, unquote, emotionally cheats on her with Carrie, now she has an argument to say, oh, you need to take care of me. You. You betrayed my trust. I gave you permission to talk to her, not flirt with her.

[A]

Why would Todd flirt with Carrie if. If Liz told her Carrie was her friend, like, why wouldn't he think he was being set up?

[B]

I guess I would definitely, like, something ain't right here. This is. Yeah, this is definitely a setup.

[A]

So by way the this point, Liz needed as much free time as possible because stalking Dave and herself had essentially become a full time job. She was sending dozens and dozens of texts and emails every single day. Using various phone numbers and more than 40 email addresses, digital forensics administrator Anthony Cava determined that some messages had been scheduled in advance through apps so Liz could be physically with Dave while making it appear that both of them were receiving threatening messages from Carrie at the exact same time. Then there was everything else she had to keep up with. Vandalizing property at Dave's place and her own. Showing up to jiggle doorknobs, throwing bricks through windows, doing whatever she needed to do to make it seem like Carrie had shown up and caused problems. And this was a lot and it wasn't really working the way Liz wanted. No matter what she did, Dave would not commit to being with her exclusively. He continued dating other women and maintaining an amicable relationship with his ex, Amy. All of which made Liz very angry because her methods weren't working. But once again, it's like, I know I'm trying to logically make sense of a person who's not being logical, but it doesn't seem like you really want committed relationships. And when you have them, they are a burden to you. So is this just a game? Is this a game to just once again, like, see how many people you can collect who fall in love with you only so you can be the one to be like, you're too much.

[B]

You know, Like, I definitely think that's part of it. You know, you talked about men and, like, they're the same. You know, men can be the same way where it's just about, like, how many women can you sleep with? Right. It's like an ego thing. So that could be something here too as well. It's not just. It's not just specific to men. Women can do it as well, I suppose.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, they definitely can, but is. I don't know.

[B]

But she's like collecting infinity stones.

[A]

Yeah. Have you ever known a man to do that much work? Because.

[B]

No, probably not this much work. But I do think there's something to be said where it's like, men, I

[A]

think they don't want you to be committed. Like, they don't want you to fall in love. So they're going to do the most to make sure that doesn't happen.

[B]

But. But I'll also say in your defense, or women's defense, there are men who are like, don't want you until you don't want them.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[B]

And so it's like they just want it to be casual. But as soon as you start dating someone seriously now, they want you every day.

[A]

Well, yeah. Then when they.

[B]

They have.

[A]

But when. Then when they have you, they.

[B]

Yeah, they're like you're disposable.

[A]

Yeah. So.

[B]

So it does work. I don't think it's gender specific.

[A]

This is weird to me. This is weird to me. So during the first week of January, Liz escalated things, taking car's Ford Explorer and parking it at Dave's apartment complex. Now, it's unclear where it had been before that point, and I would be very interested to know. There's still so much about what Liz did that we don't know. It's unclear where she'd hidden Carrie's Ford Explorer, but either way, we know she wiped it down to remove fingerprints, but we know she missed that one spot, the mint container. So, like we talked about earlier in the series, the Explorer was found on January 8, and that same day, Liz and Dave went to the sheriff's office and let detectives download their phones. Now, this was back when the police still believed Carrie was the stalker and Liz was a victim. So they didn't do anything with that data, even though they should have of until detectives Avis and Dodie took over. And when they were investigating, they learned that just one day after Liz had her phone downloaded, she went to lunch with Todd Butterb. So during the conversation when she's at lunch with Todd, Liz mentioned for the first time that someone had been harassing and stalking her. But she didn't mention Cari's name because, remember, as far as Todd knows, Carrie and Liz are friends. Okay. And he's talking to both of them now, despite having just told the sheriff's office one day earlier that Carrie was to bl. Liz was not telling this to Todd. All Liz told Todd was that the detectives were helping her and had downloaded her phone. Then she asked a question. What exactly could detectives get off her phone? And probably this was a question she should have asked Todd before she gave the police her phone and let them download the information off of it. But Todd obviously didn't think much of it because he's not really understanding the depth of what's happening. So he answered, and he told Carrie, and he told Liz what they could get off of her phone. But not long after that lunch, the original detective on the case brought Todd in for an interview because they had found out he was talking to Carrie and they wanted to warn him about her.

[B]

Oh, Jesus. This is. I understand now why this is three parts. This is. This is. The fact that this hasn't been a Netflix documentary is crazy.

[A]

It might have been. It was a book.

[B]

I mean, okay, well, that would make sense.

[A]

I know. They're like. They bring Todd, and then they're not like, todd, did you do anything? Or, you know, did you do anything to carry? Or they're like, we got to warn you about this girl. And. And I wonder, like, did they ask him, how did you meet, you know, Carrie? And then he would have said, well, my girlfriend Liz, you think that things are going to be put together at this point? But according to Todd, detectives told him at this time that his girlfriend Liz had been cheating on him with Dave Krupa. So the detectives at this time knew that Liz was dating Todd, and Todd was talking to Carrie, and Liz was also dating Dave. And they're still not thinking this is weird. Wouldn't you, at this point, think this is weird?

[B]

I would like to think I would. Yeah. I'd like to hope that if I were the one working this case, I'd say, something is off here.

[A]

Yes. Like, hey, what's. Who's the person in common with all these people? Person in common with Dave. Person in common with Carrie. Person in common with Todd. It's Liz.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I was saying earlier. We need, like, basically a Venn diagram because they all intersect and they all. The crossover where they all meet in the middle is. Is Liz.

[A]

So the police told Todd that Dave had briefly dated Carrie, and then Carrie began stalking him and Liz, and that had gone on for weeks. So Dave and Liz came up with a plan to redirect Carrie's attention towards toddler Todd, so Carrie would fall for him and leave Dave and Liz alone. And that's why Carrie started reaching out to Todd. And flirting with him. So now the police are like, sorry, Todd, you're basically like, not only are you being lied to and betrayed, but the people who are lying to you and betraying you not only are doing that, but they. They directed a stalker in your direction.

[B]

And that might be something too, to this as well. Where conversations were happening with Liz and Dave, where they were. Were talking about, you know, working together to push Carrie onto Todd. And so it was something again, Liz could bond with Dave over, like, oh, look what we're doing. We're putting this. This crazy person on Todd, not telling Dave that, hey, I'm also sleeping with Todd. And obviously not telling Todd I'm sleeping with Carrie's boyfriend Dave, who's, you know, Carrie's no longer here. Like, the. The web here is crazy.

[A]

I agree. It's getting pretty. Getting pretty tangled. Now. Obviously, I want to. I want to be really clear. This is based on what Todd told Leslie Rule so that she could write this book. I want to say take it with a grain of salt, but something about the. In the way the investigation was initially handled by the initial detectives. I kind of believe it. You know, I kind of believe it.

[B]

There might be some creative liberties taken to make yourself look better. I think a human instinct is a lot to do. That entire Todd might be looking at this after the fact going, I'm going to manipulate or maybe alter a couple things, or maybe from his perspective, he just felt like it was different. But I think that's understandable to have that, like, reaction to want to protect yourself and your. Your name. And so, yeah, I. I would listen to what he had to say, but understand, I think it's important that you mention that, that that's the source of it. I think that's something that should be considered.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. But it's, you know, something to be considered. But also, this is crazy. And we know the original detectives didn't really do the best job, so it kind of just seemed like they thought Carrie was this crazy stalker, so that's the way they would approach it.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

Now, the original detectives could not have been more wrong about what was really happening. But obviously Todd didn't know that at that point. He was mostly upset that Liz, who he had been dating for more than two years, was cheating on him. That was kind of the main thing in his head. So he confronted Liz, and she immediately denied everything. She claimed detectives had been wrong, and she said she had dated Dave years earlier, but they were just friends now. And then she flipped things around on Todd and asked, like, how could you even believe something like that about me? You know, if you think I'm cheating on you, then you're just as crazy as Carrie, who she now claimed was her stalker, not her friend. So it's like, you crazy people deserve each other. You should be together, you know, like, how could you even think that about me? Now, Todd chose to believe Liz, but as time went on, he started feeling like something wasn't right. And it didn't help that Liz was a pretty terrible girlfriend. She was cold towards him. She didn't seem to care much about him at all. Todd felt like he was there to help pay her bills and take care of her kids because that's what he was there for. And then as the summer of 2013 approached, Liz started telling Todd she was struggling financially and she might end up homeless. And Todd had already spent years helping to pick up the slack. But this time, he did not immediately step in to help. So Todd's all right? Yeah.

[B]

Good for you, Todd.

[A]

I mean it, it feels like as soon as he's like for sure, you know something's not right. Like, what are these house cleaning jobs are going on? He was starting to listen to his instincts.

[B]

Better late than never.

[A]

So without Todd's help, things got so bad that Liz ended up receiving a 30 day eviction notice. Around the same time, Dave was pulling away from Liz in a big way. So suddenly, Liz became much warmer towards Todd. She smiled more, listened more closely when he talked, and was more affectionate than she had been in a long time. To Todd, it genuinely seemed like things between them were finally getting better. Katadi, why now? Because of that. Because Todd thought that Liz was being nicer to him. He offered for Liz and the kids to move in with him and Liz accepted. Though she took her time moving things out of the old house, knowing the eviction process would likely drag on through August of 2013. So Liz is a con artist. Essentially, she's a user and a con artist now. Almost immediately after getting what she wanted, Liz went right back to being cold towards Todd. She didn't move into his bedroom and instead instead stayed in the basement. She rarely spoke to him unless she needed something. And whenever Todd questioned the sudden shift and like her energy and her mood, Liz reassured him they were still exclusive. Meanwhile, Todd continued watching her kids at night while Liz supposedly worked her cleaning business. Except detectives Avis and Doty believed she really wasn't working much at all. Instead, they believed Liz was spending time with Dave, trying to convince him to be exclusive or Continuing her impersonation of Carrie. Yes. I don't think Liz was doing much house cleaning. I agree with the detectives.

[B]

She didn't pick up a mop.

[A]

No, no, not once. She would probably, like, have cleaning jobs and she'd go in which, first of all, what cleaning jobs are you doing at night? Unless they're offices. Okay, yeah, probably. Okay, that's a good point. If they are offices, she's probably going in, sitting there, not doing anything, just like, you know, bringing her laptop in so she can impersonate Carrie. And then the next day, the. The businesses are like, hey, Liz, you know, were you here yesterday? Because you invoiced us. But it doesn't look like anything was clean. And she would gaslight them into believing that she had cleaned the office and that she'd be like, I'm really offended that you think I would charge you for something I didn't do. Like, how could you believe that about me?

[B]

Yeah, I, I do think that's an important point to make here. Like, we, we're. We're talking about these quote, unquote, house cleaning visits. And I'm sure a lot of them were to meet up with other men. But I also think it's important to mention that this was a full time job, her doing all the stalking and planning everything. So she can't do that with Todd present. So there were probably times where she left to go, quote, unquote, clean houses. But in reality, she's somewhere in a library or at a gas station somewhere on a laptop, on her phone, making all these moves.

[A]

Yes. Or, you know, she was scheduling messages so that they would show up when

[B]

she's not in on it. Dave's not in on it. So she has to do that when she's alone. And so she was probably using the public WI fi to send a lot of this stuff.

[A]

Oh, for sure. Or even, you know, when she was at her own house, because, remember, she still was, like, taking her time. She could have been doing it at Todd's house because it doesn't sound like they were sharing a bed or really sharing a life at all. Right. So she could have been doing a lot of that at night when she should have been in bed with her boyfriend. But she was, you know, in the basement like a little troll, because that's where Internet trolls stay anyways, the basement. And that's what she was doing. So now we have detectives Avis and Dodie starting to recognize and notice a pattern. Pattern. Whenever Dave pulled away again, Carrie would suddenly do something big. Vandalize properties, send threats, or create some new crisis. Then Dave and Liz would end up pulled back together because of their mutual fear and frustration surrounding Carrie. And so by mid August of 2013, Dave's pulling away again. So this time, this is when Liz decides to go big. This is when she sets fire to her house. But remember, she's already moving out of her house because she's getting evicted. So there's nothing like a ton of stuff on the line here Besides the fact that she left her pets there, which I think she left her pets there to make it seem like it was serious. I think she intentioned she could have moved her pets out and brought them to Todd's house by now.

[B]

There's also a pot. When we go back and we look at everything now, these pets, in her mind, may have been viewed as an inconvenience. Right. Maybe having to move these pets into Todd's house or anybody's house for that matter, maybe something that was a little bit of a. A barrier to entry in doing so. So because they were inconvenient, she decided to dispose of them. And when you think about that in relation to her history, it brings me back to Cody. It brings me back to him being viewed in her eyes as an inconvenience and having to get rid of him.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. She does it.

[B]

If you're not adding value to my life, you're disposable.

[A]

She doesn't really seem like.

[B]

Like, if she's killing her kid, she's definitely willing to kill some pets.

[A]

That was dark, Derek. That was dark.

[B]

But it makes sense.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you're not contributing to what I want to do, I'm gonna get rid of you.

[A]

Well, like I said, she sets her house on fire, but it's not really her house because she's being evicted. And detectives believed that Liz had doused the home and gasoline set it on fire. And once again, to make herself look like the biggest victim possible, she didn't take her four pets out beforehand. Right. Because, yeah, you'd look as an arson investigator and be like, you're already moving everything out. You already moved everything important out. You know, was this, like, to get back because you were being evicted? Because then it might look like that, but to leave her dogs in there, Most normal people are going to be like, who would do that to their own pets?

[B]

Who would do that? Exactly.

[A]

O. All right. Now that it's got. Now that it's got dark. Let's take our last break. We'll be right back. Foreign. So after the fire, obviously, Liz blamed everything on Carrie and called Dave for comfort. She told Todd about the fire too. And with him, she played the victim, saying that her pets had died, her belongings were destroyed, even her cleaning equipment had been ruined. So, well, she could no longer work because she can't be a cleaning lady. She could be. She can't be a fake cleaning lady with no equipment. And it gave Liz an excuse to continue relying on Todd financially and also more time to focus fully on her mission of getting Dave to be with her and only her. And she absolutely took advantage of the time. Liz continued stalking Dave and herself through texts, emails, vandalism, and in person incidents. Even after Dave moved to Council Bluffs, she kept it going. Now, around the same time that Dave moved, Avis and Doty began reopening Cari's case and uncovered everything Liz had been doing. And Liz had absolutely no idea she was under the microscope. So she kept going right on with business as usual schedule. But by the summer of 2015, Todd was done with the games and asked Liz to move out. She refused, saying she couldn't afford it. They broke up, but Liz stayed anyway. Todd later said he let her stay because he was afraid of what she might do to his house if he forced her out. So Todd recognizes the. The red flags. But now he feels almost like, what? Trapped? Basically, like, what is she gonna do? You know, she's not a stable person. He kind of sees this now. At the same time, Dave was getting fed up too. More than usual. Liz was still incredibly jealous, especially when it came to Dave's amicable relationship with his ex, Amy. And things finally came to a head around Thanksgiving of 2015 when Dave helped take care of Amy's sick baby, which wasn't his baby. This was a baby with the person she was with after Dave. But he did this instead of spending time with Liz. And after Liz freaked out on him, Dave told her it was over. And this time he meant it. So a few days later, Dave came home and discovered someone had broken into his apartment and stole stolen his gun. His shotgun, which had been stored right next to the handgun, had not been touched and nothing else was missing. So Dave reported the theft to police and Council Bluffs. But detectives Avis and Doty were with the Potwami County Sheriff's office. So at this time, they had no idea the gun had been stolen. And see, this is what I'm talking about.

[B]

Yeah, that. That communication.

[A]

Communication system.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, there is. That's. That is a problem that still goes on to this Day where there could be something happening in neighboring towns or cities and the other department not even know about it.

[A]

Yeah, but would it have made sense for Avis and Doty knowing that Dave had moved to Council Bluffs and he was kind of involved in all of this, to notify the Council Bluffs police department and be like, hey, like, keep it on the down low. But Dave and his girlfriend Liz, are they kind of the focus of an investigation right now? We're keeping it under wraps. But if something goes down with Dave or Liz or there's some stalking incidents or whatever, or he reports something to you, can you please, please give us a call?

[B]

Possible the concern there would be. They appear, at least from what we've been reading, Doty and Avis appear to be keeping this under wraps from everyone. As you had said earlier, they just don't trust anyone with it. They don't want to get now. They don't want Liz being tipped off. So is it possible that at this point, they didn't know if Dave was in on it as well? I'm sure at some point, I know if I was working it, I would be considering the fact that Dave was an accomplice in all of this, especially because they're quote, unquote, both being stalked. So my concern would be tipping off Dave, tipping off Liz, by reporting something to this outside agency who I don't have a relationship with, and maybe it getting back to him. But I'm on board with you. It's like, there's gotta be something where we can have access to that system where we could put a flag out there that if this person's name pops up in your agency or their address pops up in your agency, I, as a detective in a certain, you know, a neighboring agency, will get a notification.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, just to say, like, even if you don't know if Dave's involved, technically, he's still involved in some way. So, like, if something happens or there's a new stalking incident that Liz is trying to attribute to Carrie, it would happen now in Council Bluffs where Dave lives. So they'd want to know about that. Right?

[B]

Yeah. So here's. Here's the thing. And this has happened, the concern, and this is like super deep layer, like, not something you're gonna see reported in the news. But I've had cases where I've been working with a neighboring agency. Right. And it's in their internal databases, and overzealous or ambitious patrolman gets access to that, and they show up to a call for A drug dealer's house that I was investigating and not realizing it, they say something stupid like yeah, that's why narcotics in Central Falls are looking at you. We know what you're doing. Where's the drugs?

[A]

So you're saying if somebody says something stupid.

[B]

Yeah, cuz they want to make the, they want to make the collar, they want to get the arrest. So they're. Now there's also a problem where I've had incidents where we flag a house in a neighboring city and again some patrolmen who are trying to make names for themselves will start monitoring that house and driving by more consistently than they usually do. And they actually tip off the guy that we're looking at. So it's a lot. I'm not saying it still shouldn't be done. Cuz there's risks with everything. Just looking at it from the outside. I agree with you. Like there's gotta be better communication.

[A]

Yeah. And there should have been.

[B]

But yeah, how that works.

[A]

Cause they're not arguing with a gun, you know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Well that would be reported. That would be an ncic, Right. That would be in the system. But I'm with you. In a perfect world we would develop a system where everyone can talk with everybody. And it'd be just this sharing of information that would. Would kept in house and nobody who wouldn't or shouldn't have access to it wouldn't. You know. But then you have the Todd. Todd's of the world who are in there and they're telling the girlfriend about things, you know, allegedly.

[A]

I gotta say, like I give Todd credit because he's like, hey, we, we. She. He knew that Liz had given her phone to be downloaded to his unit basically. And then the police were like, she's been cheating on you. And Liz was like, no, I haven't. He could have technically gone and checked the downloaded data from her phone, I think could have.

[B]

But there might have been metadata showing he was in there, there. And he knew that he would know that. Like he's been tampering with evidence.

[A]

But. But I mean some men would have done that not caring.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. No, there's, there's a lot there, there's a lot of, there's a lot of layers to it where we've already said a million times, not everyone working for a police department is doing the right thing. And who are they talking to? Who are they communicating with? If you have a family member or a friend of someone you're targeting in another neighborhood, another jurisdiction, they could tip them off. Now they see that you're looking at Derek. Hey, Derek, listen, man. Central Falls PD is looking at you, man. You better. You better clean. Clean it up. Like, things like that happen all the time.

[A]

Well, things took a major turn just days later, because now, of course, we have a gun being stolen. And this was on December 4th, when Liz showed up at the Potawami County Sheriff's Office saying she wanted to file harassment report against Amy. So this is. This is Dave's ax. Who he has kids with. With.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So Detective Avis actually ran into Liz while she was there. So he followed her out to the parking lot and told her he had been appointed to help with the case. Man, I love this guy.

[B]

He's good. Yeah, he's good.

[A]

Then he followed her home to take the report. Now, by that point, Avis knew quite a bit about Liz's life, including the fact that she was living with Todd Butterb. But when he asked who lived in the house, Liz said it was just her and her children. Later in the interview, he asked again, setting her up. Got the same answer. Also, Liz is probably like, hey, I can add another person to my collection of boyfriends. A police detective would be great.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

Yeah, I can't let him know I have a boyfriend.

[B]

Yep, that could be part of it. But I also think it's part because she doesn't want him to know she's got someone on the inside.

[A]

Maybe. Or maybe she's like, I can't tell a guy that I might be flirting with that. That I have a boyfriend that I live with. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, as Detective Avis took the report, Liz told him that for years, she believed Carrie was the person stalking her. The one who vandalized property, sent threatening messages, broke into homes, committed arson, ruined lives. But now Liz said she had realized Carrie was not responsible and that it had to be Amy instead. And according to Liz, she came to this realization after Dave's gun was stolen, something that Detective Avis was hearing about for the first time. Liz said Amy had a key to Dave's place. So to her, it made more sense that Amy was the one who stole the gun. And on top of that, she pointed out that Carrie and Dave had only dated for a few. Few weeks. So in her mind, it no longer made sense that Carrie would still be obsessed over him years later. Amy, on the other hand, was the mother of Dave's children and had been in his life for years. But, Liz, you said. You said it was Carrie, and she was sending you messages from her phone. So how did Amy get car's phone. So later, Detective Ava said he was fascinated by how quickly Liz shifted blame after spending years accusing Carrie. But he didn't push back back. He's playing good cop, right? He played along. He acted as if he believed Amy could be responsible. And Liz told him that if detectives needed proof Amy was harassing her, she could provide it. Because her phone was full of threatening messages. Avis asked if he could download the phone, and to his surprise, Liz agreed. So he downloaded everything. Before leaving, Avis told Liz he would talk to Amy about the harassment. He also gave her his number and told told her to reach out if anything happened over the weekend.

[B]

He was probably doing a little undercover flirting himself.

[A]

Oh, I think he was too. He was like, you can call me for anything over the weekend off business hours. Yeah, I love it. I mean, he's playing good cop. Her pattern, right?

[B]

Yeah. He knows what she. She knows what she likes.

[A]

He knows what she likes. He knows what she's. What her. Her whole, like, pattern and motivation is.

[B]

And it's that flirtation may have been the reason she gave him the phone. Like, hey, whatever reason to talk with

[A]

you, he's like, if I see any pictures in there that I shouldn't, you know, I'll pretend I didn't.

[B]

I'll look away.

[A]

So the very next day, Liz texted Detective Avis additional messages she claimed her from Amy. And Avis responded, acknowledged her concerns, and reassured her that he would be speaking with Amy. Then, just hours later, things took another dramatic turn. At 6:41pm police were dispatched to Big Lake park in Council Bluffs, Iowa, the same city where Dave lived. When officers arrived, they found Liz sitting on the ground near the driver's side of the only vehicle in the parking lot. She had been shot in the left thigh. Liz was asked who shot her. She said it was Amy. Oh, my God.

[B]

Wow. Yeah. This is a sicko.

[A]

You're calling your kids ugly, killing your own pets. Now you're shooting yourself, holy man. And obviously insane based on Liz's statements, because this isn't Potawatomi Police Department. This is Council Bluffs. So based on Liz's statement, Council Bluffs police went to Amy's house believing they would be arresting an attempted murderer. But that and everything else that happened next. We'll have to wait for part four, because we're not done yet. We're not done done.

[B]

I mean, I cannot believe by part four, we're ending with Liz on the ground, more than likely shot herself. And now she switched gears, and Amy is The offender. This is wild. Yep.

[A]

Well, because Carrie's not technically around to be a threat anymore. Right. Amy's the clear and present threat to Liz getting the love and commitment of a man that she doesn't even want love and commitment from. She just wants to say she could. This is crazy. Crazy. I have five thoughts, but I, I,

[B]

I, I can't wait. Can't wait for part four. You were right. It's four parts. I want to end on a positive note real quick. I'm not going to say their last names, but an act of kindness happened this week with one of our, our two of our fans who are also Patreon members. And I just wanted to shout them out because it's incredible. Stephanie and Christina reached out to me. They unfortunately have some issues going on in the family, some health issues, and they're going to be unable to make crime con. We're currently at CrimeCon, as you're probably seeing this, and instead of getting a refund, which they probably could have done, they gave the tickets away for free. I put it on my Instagram. They said, hey, we want two other people to experience this. Let me tell you, the passes are not cheap. So for them to do this, that's incredible. And I wanted to thank them and give them a personal shout out in the episode. They did not ask for it, but they deserve it. And the Patreon community we're building is incredible. We thank everybody for being over there. We're in the discussion boards. We have ad free episodes you can check out. We do the bonus episodes. We have our new our Live that we do every single month with our Patreon members. In fact, we have one coming up, I think Monday. So we got that one coming up soon. And we just appreciate everybody over there. We love getting to interact with you guys. Shout out again to Christina and Stephanie for, for, for doing that. You didn't have to. And, and I was really, really proud of you to see that. I'm like, oh, that's awesome.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's going to do it for us, guys. We're going to be back next week for part four. Until then, everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you soon.

[A]

By.