Mackenzie Shirilla | New Netflix Doc ‘The Crash’ Reignites Debate

Summary

Crime Weekly Episode Summary

Episode: Mackenzie Shirilla | New Netflix Doc ‘The Crash’ Reignites Debate
Date: May 20, 2026
Hosts: Stephanie Harlowe & Derrick Levasseur

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Episode Overview

This episode of Crime Weekly dives into the controversial and headline-grabbing case of Mackenzie Shirilla, whose story was recently featured in the Netflix documentary "The Crash" (released May 15, 2026). Stephanie and Derrick dissect the 2022 Strongsville, Ohio incident where 17-year-old Mackenzie drove her car into a warehouse wall at 100 mph, killing her boyfriend, Dominic Russo, and his friend, Davion Flanagan, while she survived. The central debate: Was this a tragic accident or a calculated act of murder? The hosts discuss the case in depth, revisiting trial details, forensic evidence, the Netflix documentary's portrayal, and broader questions about motive, intent, and justice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Case Background and Immediate Reaction

• [00:19] Derrick recaps the morning of the crash:
  • Mackenzie (17) drives the car at high speed into a warehouse wall after leaving an early morning party/sleepover, killing Dom (20) and Davion (19).
  • Derrick mentions the show's origins in viral discussions, especially following the new Netflix release.
• [03:50] Stephanie describes the events just before the crash. There is initial confusion about the group's departure, setting up doubts about motives.
• Both hosts discuss the intense emotional impact of police body cam footage showing parents learning of their children's deaths.
  • Quote [04:04] Stephanie: “It opens up basically with body cam footage from the cops having to let the parents…know that their two sons are dead. And that broke me.”

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2. Initial Theories: Drugs, Alcohol, or Medical Event?

• [07:30] The hosts recount early suspicions (drugs or alcohol due to the party):
  • Mackenzie’s toxicology: no alcohol, negative for mushrooms, THC present but she’s a habitual user.
• [08:31] Stephanie: “They played a freaking montage in the Netflix doc of just her just smoking out of a bong…”
  • Both criticize the permissive parenting and enabling attitude (“Casey Anthony’s parents” comparison).

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3. Examining Mackenzie’s Family Dynamics

• The hosts harshly critique the parents for enabling behavior and dismissing red flags (bullying, permissiveness, ignoring problematic habits).
  • [09:48] Derrick: “I was like, these guys are morons.”
  • [10:44] Stephanie: “They talk about, like, she's getting in trouble for bullying…Oh, I know when my daughter's lying…she would never…”

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4. Investigative Evidence

• Event Data Recorder (‘black box’)
  • [12:10] Stephanie explains this was the prosecution’s key evidence:
    • Accelerator floored at 100% for at least five seconds with no brake application.
    • Slight steering left-right before impact may indicate a struggle.
    • Surveillance footage corroborates a deliberate path toward the wall.
  • [12:32] Derek: “Not once [were brakes applied].”
• Surrounding Circumstances
  • Discussion of previous incident where Mackenzie threatened to crash the car during an argument.

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5. Potential Medical Defenses and Post-Conviction Claims

• [15:32] Stephanie outlines the POTS diagnosis:
  • Mackenzie’s mom claimed she had a nervous system disorder possibly leading to blackout.
  • Defense later brought in expert (Dr. Kamal) post-trial, claiming elevated lactate & low blood oxygen could suggest a seizure/blackout.
  • Petition for relief was dismissed as it missed the court deadline.
• [16:13] Derrick: “The two don’t go hand in hand…either you’re passing out and you’re not in control, or you are.”

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6. Analysis of the Crash Data & Theories

• [19:29] Derrick details further black box data:
  • Gear shift was intentionally manipulated (drive to neutral/back).
  • Movements on Progress Drive suggest a conscious driver navigating a bend, not an unconscious one.
  • Consistent throttle at 100% undermines seizure/medical event defense.
  • [22:14] Stephanie: “Well, Davy and all his friends said that he was talking to him on Snapchat, like, pretty much...”
  • Derrick theorizes initial passenger confusion/rationalization, then panic when they realize Mackenzie isn’t stopping.

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7. Motivation and Unanswered Questions

• Hosts debate potential motive:
  • Sudden departure at 5 AM possibly sparked by an argument or jealousy, possibly relating to past alleged infidelities.
  • Mackenzie described as manipulative, possessive, and controlling by hosts.
  • [26:06] Stephanie: “Dom’s mother had testified…Mackenzie was getting very, like, jealous and possessive.”
• The use of Progress Drive (shortcut or premeditation?) is explored and why Mackenzie took that route.

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8. Deliberateness, Motive, and Judicial Outcome

• [31:11] Stephanie and Derrick disagree on motive:
  • Derrick believes Mackenzie attempted murder-suicide (“If I can’t have you, nobody can”).
  • Stephanie wonders if she only intended to scare or manipulate, not kill.
  • Both agree there was no way to be certain she would survive.
  • [33:34] Derrick: “She’s got your life in her hands… there’s not much you can do.”

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9. Intent and Reasonable Doubt

• [38:18] Stephanie: “It’s so hard for me to look at this girl and say this is what she intended…”
  • Reiterates trouble believing she would knowingly drive into a wall expecting to survive for attention.
• Derrick pushes back, detailing that no effort to brake or swerve constitutes intent.
  • [40:07] Derrick: “Her actions, her conscious actions led to the death of these two young men.”

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10. Trial Strategy: Bench vs. Jury Trial

• [40:39] Derrick and Stephanie debate whether bench trial was wise:
  • Stephanie: “No, because I think there would have been somebody like me on the jury…who looks at this young girl and…needs to be 100% beyond a reasonable doubt…”
  • Derrick: “Her lawyers knew how unlikable she was…Jury is more likely to go off emotion.”

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11. Aftermath, Parole, and Reflection

• Judge sentenced Mackenzie to life with eligibility for parole after 15 years (concurrent sentences).
• Hosts expect ongoing debate and eventual parole attempt will hinge on her admitting culpability and remorse.
• Stephanie plans to continue investigating case details and encourages audience to share thoughts.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Stephanie [04:04]: “Right away, I'm like, freaking Derek, man. I just got home from vacation…now you got me real messed up.”
• Derrick [12:32]: “The brakes were never tapped? Not once.”
• Stephanie [09:54]: “These are Casey Anthony's parents. Well, they're enablers.”
• Derrick [31:11]: “I think she intentionally tried to kill herself. If I can have you, nobody can; we’ll die together.”
• Stephanie [38:18]: “You’d have to know you were going to survive. How would you know that? How would you know that?"
• Derrick [46:39]: “Her foot was down to the floor on that gas pedal as it hit the wall. There was no attempt to stop.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:19: Case summary and documentary context
• 03:30: Party, timeline, and circumstances before crash
• 06:45: Derrick’s personal experience with similar crash
• 11:15: Prior threats and relationship dynamics
• 12:08: Event Data Recorder/black box evidence
• 15:32: POTS/medical defense and its problems
• 19:29: Derrick’s technical breakdown of crash
• 22:14: Snapchat evidence and passengers’ likely actions
• 26:06: Motive speculation—jealousy, timeline holes
• 31:11: Debate on intent to kill vs. intent to scare
• 38:18: Could Mackenzie have expected to survive?
• 40:39: Bench trial vs. jury trial debate
• 42:42: Sentencing, parole discussion, and the problem of intent
• 47:09: Closing thoughts, audience engagement

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Tone and Language

• Conversational, candid, and analytical.
• Blunt critiques of both families and legal arguments.
• Moments of dry humor, frustration, and empathy for victims and their families.

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Conclusion

This episode is a nuanced exploration of the Mackenzie Shirilla case, with Derrick tending to side with the jury’s conclusion of intentional murder, and Stephanie remaining unconvinced that intent (beyond recklessness and manipulation) was definitively established. The hosts highlight the complexities of such cases—where forensic evidence, survivor psychology, family dynamics, and circumstantial motive must all be weighed against the absence of clear confessions or surviving witnesses. Listeners are encouraged to watch the documentary, dig into the case themselves, and share their own analyses.

Transcript

[Stephanie Harlow]

Foreign.

[Derek Levasseur]

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Crime Weekly News. I'm Derek Levasseur.

[Stephanie Harlow]

And I'm Stephanie Harlow.

[Derek Levasseur]

And we're going to be talking about a case today that is all over the Internet. Give you a quick summary here on a summer morning In July of 2022, in the quiet suburb of Strongsville, Ohio, in a black Toyota Camry, made a slow, deliberate turn down an industrial road and then accelerated in less than half a mile. It hit 100 miles per hour. Seconds later, it slammed into the brick wall of a warehouse with such force that two young men inside were killed instantly. The driver, a 17 year old, walked away with her life and eventually a murder conviction. Her name was Mackenzie Schrilla, and the boys in the car were her boyfriend Dominic Russo, and, and his best friend Davion Flanagan. And the question that prosecutors, investigators, and now Netflix have spent the last four years trying to answer is a simple one, but with a chilling answer. Was this a tragic accident or was it murder? And before we start talking about it, shout out to my brother Matt, who is, who is watching our last, our Brandy hall series. Like I said, he was a firefighter. I told him he was mentioned in it. So, you know, he had to go watch it. And he agrees with everything we said, by the way, what Randall did that day and as far as the, the, the communications and turning on his portable radio, absolutely. He's like, yeah, dude, I have no investment. That guy was not in the building. But that's a side note. Then he, and then, and then he switched it up and said, hey, man, have you watched this documentary on Netflix yet? And I'm like, oh, I'm not really into the, you know, true crime documentaries. And he's like, you have to watch this. You have to watch it. It just came out. It's great. So I'm like, okay, I'll watch it. I'll let you know what I think I watched it. It was really well done. The story itself is crazy. So then I, when Stephanie got home from her vacation, I'm like, hey, you have to watch this Netflix doc and we have to talk about it this week because everybody is going to be talking about it. And here we are.

[Stephanie Harlow]

And I did. I watched it.

[Derek Levasseur]

You did. And you were about to start talking about it on the phone. And I was like, wait, let's wait

[Stephanie Harlow]

till we record it. Well, that's what I. Because it's in my head. And I'm like, I got to talk this out. So basically the, the documentary released May 15, 2026, it's directed by Gareth Johnson. And it revisits this July 2022 incident in Strongsville, Ohio, where 17 year old MacKenzie Shrilla drove her car at over 100 miles per hour into a brick building. It killed her boyfriend Dominic Russo, and his friend Davion Flanagan. So Mackenzie actually survived.

[Derek Levasseur]

Surprisingly. Yeah.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Yeah. Which we're going to talk about that. But she was convicted of murder in a 2023 BE, actually chose the bench trial. And then she was sentenced to life with parole eligibility after 15 years.

[Derek Levasseur]

That's right.

[Stephanie Harlow]

So here's the backstory. All three of them, Dom and Mackenzie and Davon, they were at a party. So some people say it's a graduation party. Mackenzie refers to it as a sleepover.

[Derek Levasseur]

I guess that's what her friend Rosie did as well.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Yeah, that. That's what they would do. They would kind of do these parties or get togethers, chill hangouts, whatever. And they'd get together and then it was around, I guess, 5:30 in the morning that Dom, McKenzie and Daven got into Mackenzie's car to I guess head back home. So Mackenzie was driving, Dom was in the passenger seat, Daven was in the back. And Mackenzie turned from Pearl Road onto Progress Drive. And this was a pretty normal sort of driving. It was controlled. It was deliberate.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yeah. She used her blinker.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Yep. And then she somehow or the car accelerated to 100 miles per hour, which is crazy.

[Derek Levasseur]

And this isn't the longest road ever. It was she. Floor. Pedal to the floor.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Yeah, pedal to the metal. So now we have this car accident and I watched the documentary and it opens up basically with body cam footage from the cops having to let the parents of these kids know that their. Their children, their two sons are dead. And that broke me. So right away I'm like freaking Derek, man. Like, I didn't. I just got home from vacation, I'm in an okay mindset. And now you got me real messed up. Because the one mother was like, you're lying. Right? Like, this is like she couldn't.

[Derek Levasseur]

That was Mackenzie's mom. That was at the hospital. That was Mackenzie's mom and dad. And basically they were at the hospital. Cause Mackenzie was there.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Yes.

[Derek Levasseur]

And they were asking who else? Was she alone in the car? Were there other people? And they were very close with Dom. So obviously that's why they had that reaction.

[Stephanie Harlow]

And they. Yeah, they, you know, you could just. You couldn't. I don't know. It was really. It was upsetting to see. So Mackenzie's in the hospital and she's the only one that survived I read through the report and everything, the police report, and when they got to the car, as at the initial crime scene or accident scene, the police and the paramedics, they were like, this is one of the worst things we've ever seen, ever. Davion was in the back seat, but from the force of the car, it looks like he kind of had flown upwards. So he was laying on top of Dom, who was sitting in the front seat. And the passenger seat was reclined all the way back. So Dom was in the passenger seat. And I think Davion was still alive when they. When they extracted them from the car. And then they called in ambulances, but by the time the helicopter came, Daven had passed away. And Mackenzie gets brought to the hospital. And then the police question her, and she says she doesn't remember anything that happened.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yeah, she asked for a lawyer, too, pretty quickly as well.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Well, the parents, they were like, you

[Derek Levasseur]

know, maybe we should have a lawyer.

[Stephanie Harlow]

And then. But then they gave her phone over to the police right away.

[Derek Levasseur]

Right. Which, you know, not great. No, this. This incident is very similar to an incident that I experienced as a police officer. Three students, high school students, actually attended the same high school that I attended, speeding at night and came around a turn too fast, had a telephone pole. And when we got there, driver, they were all crushed in the car. Two people in the car died. Driver survived. They hit on the passenger side of the pole, and the back passenger was alive when we got there. And they didn't even know how bad it was. But before, same exact thing. Within seconds, he was gone. And it shook up the community, especially our high school. So this is the unfortunate thing as a patrolman that you could run into potentially. And you can see the reaction from the patrolman when he got there. He thinks he's responding to an accident, and then he gets there and realizes what he just walked into. And he said.

[Stephanie Harlow]

He. He said the car looked like it was almost cut in half.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yeah. Yeah. Split in two. Yeah. And there's a lot. We. We're going to talk about it all. There's a lot even from that body cam footage that you can dissect and then other body cam footage where you can start to put together a picture of what transpired, even though we also have a lot of footage from the entire. The entire night, including the accident itself, which I think is why this. This documentary is so compelling, because you don't have to. You don't have. About what it was or what happened.

[Stephanie Harlow]

You don't have to envision it in your head.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yeah, it's bad.

[Stephanie Harlow]

And I mean, initially when something like this happens, right, you've got. MacKenzie was 17 and Dom was 20, and I think that Daven was 19. So you've got some young kids, and they just came from a, you know, a hangout or graduation party. And you're thinking, well, alcohol, drugs, like something had to have been involved at play here. But pretty shortly after, Mackenzie gets the hospital, and then the responding police officer goes to the hospital and. And he's told, okay, her blood alcohol level that she. She was not.

[Derek Levasseur]

Zero.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Yeah, no alcohols involved here. But then they found in. In her. In the car and on Mackenzie's person, they found marijuana and they found mushrooms. Yeah, Magic mushrooms. Right. Sally seven. So then. Then we're thinking, well, maybe drugs are involved.

[Derek Levasseur]

Right.

[Stephanie Harlow]

But then that comes back negative as well.

[Derek Levasseur]

She had THC in her system, but she's a habitual smoker. She smoked every single day, so that wouldn't have. That wouldn't have messed up her driving.

[Stephanie Harlow]

So they said she smoked every day and also drove while they played a

[Derek Levasseur]

freaking montage in the Netflix doc of just her just smoking out of a bong.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Yeah, they sure did. Yeah. Which is crazy to me to be that young, that her parents were like, I. We. We understand. She. We know she smoked. It's also weird, okay, Because.

[Derek Levasseur]

Oh, God, the parents.

[Stephanie Harlow]

I know Derek was like, I hate the parent. I'm not going to tell you anything. I hate the parents. And I'm like, I am going in with an open mind. And. And at first I was like, oh, they're not that bad. And then I was like, oh, these.

[Derek Levasseur]

They're just.

[Stephanie Harlow]

These are Casey Anthony's parents. Well, they're enablers.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yeah, there was their enablers for sure. And then there's like this contradictory element to. To basically Mackenzie, where she's so concerned about her health and eating right and all these things. But. And, you know, you can. You can say what you want about weed. You know, some people believe in it, some people don't, whatever. But what we do know, because it was said in the doc, is that she was smoking so much that she had, like, black or blood coming up. And so she was actually on a. A break from smoking because of it. So it's like, you're eating all this healthy food, but you're doing something that's making you sick. Whatever.

[Stephanie Harlow]

It just kind of felt like they let her do whatever she wanted, she wanted. So she's 17 years old. They let her move in with her boyfriend.

[Derek Levasseur]

They said things like, oh, well, he had money.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Because we knew, you know, she likes money. She likes things. She likes things. Like, we knew that that boy had money. Yeah. Don't like it.

[Derek Levasseur]

I was like, these guys are morons. And then he would go to the school. Did you do it? Oh, I know when my daughter's lying.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Oh, yeah, yeah, that's it. I was just about to say. They talk about, like, she's getting in trouble for bullying. There's all these people. Like, she bullied me and my friends for no reason. And then they're like, yeah, we had to go to the school. And I said, mackenzie, did you do it? And she was like, no, Daddy, of course not. And he was like, and I know my daughter. She would never. I mean, and then her mother's like, she was a good kid. No problems. Except for her mouth. You know, it's like, well, yeah. So they're clearly enablers. Like I said, these are Casey Anthony's parents. The same kind of situation. And I get not wanting to be, you know, these authoritarian parents, but there is a point where you're like, all right, like, do. Am I trying to put a good person out into the world, or am I trying to put a monster into the world? Now, here's the thing. She says she doesn't remember what happens. Okay?

[Derek Levasseur]

Right. She remembers turning onto the street.

[Stephanie Harlow]

She remembers turning on the street, and then it faded to black.

[Derek Levasseur]

That's it.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Okay. So they start getting suspicious, though, because they had her phone now, and they're kind of, like, looking at stuff on the phone, and they're kind of getting an idea of who she is and what she's all about. And then there comes. It comes to light that, hey, her and Dom, her boyfriend, were having some issues. And just that same month, she had been driving him in a car, and a family friend had to go pick him up because they were fighting in the car. And the family friend could hear Dom on the phone because he was in the car with Mackenzie still. And Mackenzie was like, I'm gonna crash this car.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yeah.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Okay. So. So the family friend. This was just a few weeks before this happened. So. But then you talk to people who were at the party. They were talked to, and they said, yeah, Mackenzie and Dom weren't fighting. There was no.

[Derek Levasseur]

Rosie's. Another one. It was Rosie, basically. Rosie.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Rosie didn't want to talk to the police, man.

[Derek Levasseur]

Rosie's never talked to the prosecutor. Doesn't want, you know, nothing to hide, but not willing to speak to anybody except for Netflix. Okay. Except For Netflix.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Yeah.

[Derek Levasseur]

Which the prosecutor was great on that, too. He's like, oh, she spoke to you. Can't wait to hear what she has to say. That's amazing.

[Stephanie Harlow]

He's like, we've been trying to talk to Rosie forever.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yeah.

[Stephanie Harlow]

So here's the thing that really kind of ties everything in. Right. Because you could look at it and you could say, all right, well, she was a kid. You know, she talks on her phone. They're fighting, they're young, whatever. That's not going to be this. This thing that's going to kind of put. And put the nail in her coffin. But then you've got the event data

[Derek Levasseur]

recorder, basically, the black box.

[Stephanie Harlow]

The black box of the car. And this captures the final five seconds before the impact. And this is the prosecution's centerpiece during the trial. So the accelerator was pressed at 100 capacity, like Derek said, pedal to the metal. And it was held there for an extended period of time.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yep. The entire time.

[Stephanie Harlow]

The brakes were never tapped? Not once.

[Derek Levasseur]

Not once. Yep.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Steering wheel turned slightly left, then right before being straightened out for the final stretch into the building. And so investigators interpreted this back and forth steering as possible evidence that. That Dom and Davian tried to grab the wheel and force a hard right turn more than once to avoid the crash. As in, like, possibly Mackenzie was stepping on the accelerator, like, I'm going to crash this car. And the two other passengers in the car were trying to prevent this from happening. And surveillance footage from the surrounding businesses, because this is an industrial area, it backed that up. So the car made a controlled, deliberate turn and then accelerated for nearly half a mile before impact. So now we have this data. Right. But still. Okay. And I want to talk about this data with you, Derek, because I know you've. You've looked at it and you've kind of analyzed it, but still, I'm not 100% sold on what happened here, and I'm going to tell you why. But before we get into that, let's take a break. You know what's funny? Sometimes the things that affect your day the most are the things you stop noticing. You know, the things you see and feel every single day.

[Derek Levasseur]

Like what?

[Stephanie Harlow]

You know, like bad bedding you get used to scratchy sheets, flat pillows, waking up too hot. And you don't really realize how uncomfortable everything is until you finally replace it, or you sleep in, like, a hotel and you're like, wow, this is way better than what I got going on at home. And that's what happened when I switched to bowl and Branch.

[Derek Levasseur]

Fair. Fair. No, I agree. I felt an immediate difference when I had bowen branch on my bed.

[Stephanie Harlow]

I don't know what you have, but I have the signature sheets. They just feel different. They're made from high quality organic materials, so they have that really elevated hotel bed feeling.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yeah. And can I just say, the waffle blanket, super underrated.

[Stephanie Harlow]

I love the waffle blanket because it adds that cozy, layered texture without feeling, like, super heavy. Like you have a big comforter on you and everything somehow gets softer after every wash instead of wearing out. So the sheets, the waffle blanket, usually when you keep washing things, they kind of get, like, you know, rougher or they start to wear down. But not bowl and branch. Every time I wash it, it gets better.

[Derek Levasseur]

And don't underestimate that. That's a rarity.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Exactly. And most bedding feels great for about a month and then starts, you know, kind of falling apart. It's got holes in it. But this actually feels like an upgrade you're going to notice every single night. So honestly, it made my whole bedroom feel more relaxing. I get better sleep. I feel, like, fancier. It's one of those small changes that ends up improving your entire routine.

[Derek Levasseur]

That's right. And right now you can get 20 off your first order, plus free shipping during the memorial at bolandbranch.com crimeweekly with code crime weekly. That's Boland Branch. B O l l a n-d branch.com crimeweekly code crime weekly to get 20 off. Bolandbranch.com crimeweekly Code crime weekly exclusions apply.

[Stephanie Harlow]

All right, so we're back. So Mackenzie, once again, she has no memory of this, and when we have. Her trial is only four days, I believe. So her mother testified that she had been diagnosed with pots. So this is a nervous system disorder. It can cause sudden dizziness, blackouts. She had been diagnosed with POTS in 2017, and her mother was like, well, maybe this caused a medical emergency and she lost consciousness. But the judge of the. The bench trial didn't really buy it. And. And a lot of people have said, like, listen, if you're losing consciousness, how are you pushing your foot down on the gas? Right.

[Derek Levasseur]

Contradictory. The two don't go hand in hand. Yeah, they're passing out and you're out of. You're not in control of the vehicle or you are. Make up your mind.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Yeah, because this isn't. Once again, this isn't even like, oh, I passed out in my foot. So maybe I slumped forward and my foot slightly pushed down. It's like, no, all the way down. And at trial, Mackenzie's lawyer did raise this issue of the 2017 POTS diagnosis. This is something to do with like your autonomic nervous system, blood pressure. It can. I looked into it and I've heard about it before. It can cause sudden lightheadedness or brief blackouts. But here's the problem. Mackenzie did not testify. Her mother testified about it, but Mackenzie didn't testify. And the defense never put an actual expert medical testimony like forward during that trial showing that she had blacked out at the time of the crash. So here's another thing though, because more stuff has happened after the trial. So I want to talk about this potential, this potential that she had, you know, in medical emergency before we kind of get into it. So there is real medical evidence now pointing towards a possible blackout or maybe even a seizure, but it is contested and it came after Mackenzie's conviction. And so it's never been weighed against the prosecution's case in court. In April, the defense filed a supplemental post conviction relief petition built around this doctor, Dr. Kamal. And Dr. Kamal had said that he looked at the, the medical evidence, and he's a neurologist at University Hospital in Cleveland. And his conclusion was that the evidence was consistent with loss of consciousness at the time of impact. And he pointed to three specific findings and elevated lactate levels, abnormally low blood oxygen. I think if I remember correctly, her blood oxygen level was 82 and a normal blood oxygen level is 95. And then complete amnesia following the incident, which for me that's not a specific finding. Cuz she could just say she has complete amnesia after the incident.

[Derek Levasseur]

That would be re. That'd be the smart thing to do.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Yeah, but Dr. Kamali is saying she's got elevated lactate levels and abnormally low blood oxygen. And then this to him says that these are classic markers of a seizure or a similar autonomic event. And the defense says, you know, this is actually the kind of expert evidence that Mackenzie's original attorney should have presented. But they didn't. And so I could see an area where it's like you got a bad lawyer and they didn't prepare for trial and they should have put more evidence like from experts and, and medical experts forward, and that may have changed the tide maybe. But he. Yeah, I mean, this was dismissed. So this post conviction relief petition was built around. Yeah, around the doctor's findings. And the judge, Nancy Russo, rejected it, but not because it was not without merit. It's because the filing was submitted one day past the Statutory deadline. So the court ruled it time barred as a matter of law, meaning, like, it couldn't go through.

[Derek Levasseur]

So there's. There's so much to unpack here. And, I mean, we could talk about this. It was. It's borderline a Crime Weekly episode. So I'm going to try to be concise. I may miss some things, but here's the problem with that whole theory. First, let's go back to the edr. One other thing you didn't mention was the fact that the shifter went from drive to neutral, back to drive. In addition to this. Left, right, left movement. And you can also see from the body cam footage that at the last moment, the vehicle veered to the right even before the intersection. It went over the grass, then went on the road and then went into the building. So there was movement at that last moment to try to do something. Whatever. It was a fight over the wheel, whatever you have. There was something going on there. And I did a TikTok. I did an Instagram. Even if we're looking at the EDR in my Instagram and TikTok, I had said that I believed, and the prosecutor laid this out, that the movements of that steering wheel could indicate a struggle over the wheel. I'm gonna amend that a little bit, and I'm gonna tell you why. And this was something that I kind of came to this morning. If you look at Progress Drive, it's not that long of a road, and we kind of.

[Stephanie Harlow]

No, it's not.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yeah, we're doing surface level here. But there's camera footage of this whole thing, guys. If you haven't seen it, there's cameras all along this road up to the point where they hit the building.

[Stephanie Harlow]

It's surrounded by businesses.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yep. And so it's like an industrial area. And so this road's not that long. And what you'll notice is that Progress Drive, as they take a. As they take a right off of Pearl onto Progress, the road is mostly straight until about the last maybe 300ft before this intersection. And what you will notice if we have. If you're watching on YouTube right now is the Progress Drive when it comes to this. Almeida Drive, the intersection there. At the last moment, if you're traveling down this road, it kind of has a bend to it. And if you're driving the vehicle, you would have to go left and then turn the wheel right to straighten it back out and then right a little bit more based on the angle they went. So when we think about five seconds at the rate of speed, they were going. I think that five seconds is actually showing you that last little bend before going directly into the building. And what does that tell us? It contradicts the idea that there was someone behind the wheel who wasn't conscious. They consciously made that turn to go around that bend so they would make it to the wall. Otherwise they would have went up on the grass right at that bend, and they didn't. So I've amended my theory on what I think happened slightly, too. I definitely think Davion and Dom were awake in the car. If you look at that footage when they're making the turn, there appears to be a light illuminating from the vehicle. It looks to me like it's the passenger side, which would suggest a phone, that maybe Dom was on his phone.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Well, Davy and all his friends said that he was talking to him on Snapchat, like, pretty much. Yeah.

[Derek Levasseur]

And he could have had his phone out, too. But what you're seeing in the camera footage and obviously infrareds, a little weird, but it looks to me like it's coming from the passenger seat. And so I think they're up. And by the way, they didn't have their seatbelts on. I don't believe, however, mackenzie did, which I guess she didn't normally wear her seatbelt. That's. We're going to talk about that as well. But I think they're driving down that road, and as soon as she makes that turn, she steps on the gas, and for the first, like, 15 seconds, they're rationalizing with her. What are you doing? Stop. Slow down. Don't be stupid. This isn't that serious. And it's not until the last second when they realize she's not going to stop. And I do think that's when someone grabs the steering wheel, snaps it to the right, and it hits the building at that angle. But I think that first left, right is actually mackenzie adjusting the wheel, adjusting the vehicle to go around that bend on Progress Drive, which to me is even more damning to the idea that this was a medical emergency. Couple that with the fact that she had her foot to the floor. 100% acceleration the entire time is highly suggestive that she was doing that intentionally. If she had passed out, you would expect her to go limp. Even if she had a seizure, it'd be intermittent. There'd be moments where it might be 95% pressure, 84% pressure, back to 100. It's consistent the entire five seconds, 100% foot to the floor. And I think there's a lot there. That says this was deliberate. The motive is a little gray. That's why it's so fascinating, because it doesn't make a lot of sense. And what I said in my. My TikTok was, and this is speculative and I want your opinion on this, Stephanie. And you guys weigh in in the comments as well, because everybody's different. I'm a night owl. Stephanie knows that I sleep in. For me. They got to Rosie's house late or the friend's house late. I don't know if it was Rosie's house, but Rosie was there.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Yeah, they got there, it wasn't Rosie's house, but it was like 11:30.

[Derek Levasseur]

11:30. And originally they had asked her to bring shrooms and maybe some weed.

[Stephanie Harlow]

But then they said it. Then they said by the time they thought about it was too late. Them, it was too late. Yeah.

[Derek Levasseur]

So they came there. That's why they still had the shrooms in the car. Right? Because they didn't, they didn't eat them. And so to me, they get there late, they don't do the shrooms, they smoke a little weed, they watch tv, whatever they do. I find it odd that at five o' clock in the morning they abruptly decide to leave and Devian says, I'm gonna go with him, I'm gonna go shower. I find that odd. You just got to bed a couple hours prior, you don't have anywhere to be in the morning. Why are you guys rushing to get out of there? It's completely just a guess on my part. But I do wonder if something happened or something was discovered or a conversation was had where there was an argument and they were like, effort, we're getting out of here now. Maybe that's why Rosie doesn't want to speak.

[Stephanie Harlow]

But if there was an argument, you know, it doesn't seem like that was kind of building up. Everybody said they were fine. So like, when did the argument start? Who, who started it? Who was it between?

[Derek Levasseur]

Right. But it could have been right at five in the morning where they're like, we're getting out of here.

[Stephanie Harlow]

The one friend who said whose house it was, he said he went to bed and then he woke up around like three or four and MacKenzie was sleeping and Davion was watching something on TV with another person. And then Dom wasn't. He didn't see Dom anywhere. And then he went back to bed. And when he woke up later that morning, everybody was gone. So where was Dom at that point when Davion's watching TV and MacKenzie sleeping?

[Derek Levasseur]

Yeah. What happened? What Did Mackenzie wake up and see something?

[Stephanie Harlow]

Did Dom sneak off with someone? Maybe. Because there was some allegations that he had cheated on Mackenzie in the past. In the past when they first started. Yeah. And then Dom's mother had testified and said, hey, that Mackenzie was getting very, like, jealous and possessive of Dom in the weeks leading up to this. This car crash.

[Derek Levasseur]

So I'll look at some of the videos. She just was very manipulative, took advantage of the situation, a different person behind closed doors when she didn't know she was being recorded.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Very materialistic. Yeah.

[Derek Levasseur]

But to me, when we're trying to pinpoint when things went south, I do point to that five o' clock window also. Unfortunately, we don't know what was being said in the car because everyone other than Mackenzie is dead. One other thing I wanted to point out that was, you know, time constraints, you know, in these documentaries. But it was. It was. It was something that was brought up during court, and that's the fact that this progress drive, it is on the way home. And normally it can be a shortcut if there's traffic.

[Stephanie Harlow]

The cops said that some people use it as a shortcut and they usually don't go the speed limit.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yeah, but here's the problem, right? The speed limit, I think was 25, 35. But here's the issue with this. If there's no traffic, it's not a shortcut. It actually would take longer to get to where they're going. So why take that road then that night? And I bring that up because maybe

[Stephanie Harlow]

if you want to avoid main roads and the police, you know, if you had been smoking weed, I don't know, that's possible.

[Derek Levasseur]

Or another. Which. This is what the prosecutor said. They said that she had visited that street in the days prior to this incident. And to them, that could be an indication of premeditation. But at minimum, what I have said is there's a familiarity with that road. She would have known the T intersection was coming up. So you couldn't even go towards, like, reckless driving, where she was just driving fast, not paying attention.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Didn't realize if you could prove premeditation.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yeah, but I'm saying if there's no premeditation, I'm just saying she would know the road. Let's take a break.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Let's take a break. And then I want to talk about this, because I have issues with it. You know, she was convicted. She is in prison. She. She talked to Netflix from prison.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yes.

[Stephanie Harlow]

We thought we might get some, you know, monumental. No, she's like, I don't remember.

[Derek Levasseur]

No.

[Stephanie Harlow]

She's like, remember? Let's take a break. We'll come back there.

[Derek Levasseur]

There's so much more to talk about.

[Stephanie Harlow]

I feel like every woman is constantly searching for the perfect bra. Like the one that's comfortable, actually supportive, disappears under clothes. No bulges, no pinches, and somehow doesn't make you want to rip it off halfway through the day.

[Derek Levasseur]

I don't know from experience, but it seems like an impossible combination.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Well, I. It is usually, but it honestly did feel impossible until I started wearing skims. I love skims. I talk about skims all the time and, and I love their underwear and I love their dresses. Like summer's coming up. So they're long body fitting dresses are, are going to be my go to cuz they're comfortable. But the bra. I just went on vacation to a tropical location and I usually don't bring any bras because I'm like in a bathing suit the whole time. My Skims ultimate bra was the only bra I bought because, you know, just in case I wanted to wear one, I knew it was going to be comfortable. I knew it was going to be light. Their ultimate bra in the new everyday cotton fabric is amazing. I'm obsessed. It has that same signature lift and shape that everyone already loves from the ultimate bra, but now it's softer and more. More breathable because of the cotton, which made it great for a really hot, sticky, humid environment.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yeah. And I know doing our merch designs all the time, you are definitely a cotton only person.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Yeah, I mean, I have sensitive skin and I get really, like, hot and itchy. I only wear cotton underwear. But finding a really good bra in cotton, it used to be a very, very hard task. Usually they either look bad, feel bulky, or don't support anything. But this one actually works under everything, especially T shirts, which is important. And it's genuinely become the bra I reach for every day, which does say

[Derek Levasseur]

a lot because you are picky. And so if you're saying, hey, this is the one I'm going with, that's. That's Stephanie verified right there.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Well, I'm, I'm all about comfort. Okay. So if you can get comfort and it looks good at the same time, this is one of those products where once you find it, you stop wanting to wear anything else. So I love skims. Everything that skims has, every time they come out with a new drop and I get an email, I'm like, how do I need it anything more? Yes, I do. Let me go check it out so you can Shop the everyday cotton and all of my favorite bras and [e-mail]. so after you place your order, be sure to let them know that we sent you select podcast in the survey and then be sure to select our show Crime Weekly in the drop down menu that follows. Once again, that is skims.com and then select podcast in the survey and be sure to tell them Crime Weekly sent you foreign. We're back. So while I am with you every step of the way, as far as the data goes, and it appears that this was intentional and that she hit on the gas. My. And you said the motive is kind of like, yeah, blurry. I agree. The motive is blurry. It's like, okay, you've been fighting, you've had some, but you've been together four years, you live together. It probably is not the first rough patch you've had. And here's the thing. A hundred miles per hour into a brick wall. There was zero ability for MacKenzie to intentionally do that and know for a fact that she would survive.

[Derek Levasseur]

Oh, no. I think she. I think she intentionally tried to kill herself.

[Stephanie Harlow]

You think she wanted to kill herself too?

[Derek Levasseur]

I do.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Really, I do.

[Derek Levasseur]

I think it was like, if I can have you, nobody can will die together. A Romeo and Juliet type thing. Not exactly, but that's.

[Stephanie Harlow]

That's.

[Derek Levasseur]

You can't. You can't. You can't think you're going to hit a wall at that speed and think you're going to survive.

[Stephanie Harlow]

And she's going to kill the friend too. Like Daven.

[Derek Levasseur]

Like that. That is odd to me. And that is something else that the. His parents had talked about. Like, if that was her plan or even if it was just in that moment, why not let him out? Why? Why not? Why would you take him with you?

[Stephanie Harlow]

Yeah. And so here's my thing. Like, when. When she first got out of the car, when they extracted her and the. The paramedic was taking her vitals and he said she was confused. I guess the first thing she said was, was how is Daven? That's the first thing she said. So it sounded like she was checking on him. So maybe her intention was. And that's why she had her seat belt on, hoping to maybe survive it and just kill Dom. But she was worried about Daven. I don't know. Like, see, to me, that's. She had. I'm not saying, like, I know this girl and she had a lot to live for, but she's 17, right? And. And she does technically have a lot to live for. So what could this possibly have been a thing where. And. And I. Listen, I've been in a car with someone like this before. It's abusive, it's manipulating, it's controlling. They use reckless driving to scare you.

[Derek Levasseur]

And it works because they're in complete control.

[Stephanie Harlow]

It works because they're in complete control. Exactly. Could it have been a thing where, like a few weeks prior where she was like, I'm gonna wreck this car just to kind of show her boyfriend Dom? Like, I'm mad you're bringing me to this place. Again, not intending to actually hit a wall. Like. And I know you said that they. The prosecution has evidence that she. That she was possibly there before, which suggests premeditation. I just can't wrap my head around, like, oh, I'm so mad at my boyfriend, I'm going to kill everyone in this car, including myself. That's very hard.

[Derek Levasseur]

In that case, you would expect that in that last moment that there would be some attempt to not hit the wall, hit the brake. No, all they did was, I think, the veer of the steering wheel. Let's talk about reconstruction, too. Right. Because it goes into the. What I'm gonna say here, the slight veering off the road. That's not attempt. That's not her attempting to miss the wall. That's Davion.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Somebody else grabbing the wheel.

[Derek Levasseur]

You're grabbing the wheel. Because what we know from the way they were found, and you hit on this earlier, and I think this is fascinating, you have Dom in the front seat. You have Devian on top of him in the front seat. And then what's also interesting is that you have Mackenzie in the driver's side, but she's under the dashboard in.

[Stephanie Harlow]

In Dom's lap, basically. Like under the passenger side dashboard.

[Derek Levasseur]

Oh, is it the passenger side? I thought she was still on the driver's side. But either way, that even makes it more compelling because if you know what you're about to do and your natural reaction is to brace for it as you're pushing your foot on the gas, you're going to duck down. And which way are you going to duck?

[Stephanie Harlow]

Okay, so I'm going to read. I'm going to read from the police report. The responding officer ran to the driver's side, saw the legs and lower torso of what appeared to be the female driver. The upper half of the driver's body was on the passenger side underneath the passenger dashboard, which was caved in on top of her.

[Derek Levasseur]

So hear me out. Now we're getting somewhere. A second before you hit that Wall, you know you're about to, you keep your foot on the gas and you, and you get, you lean over and when you lean over, that's why the shifter goes into neutral for a second and then back to drive. It's your body crossing over the shifter and then you hit the wall. But at no point do you hit the brake. And so she's bracing for it. Dom and, and Deviant are fighting with her to try to get the steering wheel. That's why it veers to the right.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Well, the passenger front seat was also lowered, reclined all the way back. So was Dom sleeping?

[Derek Levasseur]

What like he might have been sitting like that. A lot of the times, even me back in the day, I'd have my seat all the way recline back. But it seems to me like Daven being where he was, maybe he lunged forward to try to grab the steering wheel.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Cuz he was found in the front passenger seat. Right.

[Derek Levasseur]

Basically on top of Dom. And you guys got to remember this like she's, you know what, I don't even know, 100 pounds soaking wet, she's tiny. And you got a running back for the high school. Dom's a good sized kid, but yet they can't do much to her because she's got her foot on the gas.

[Stephanie Harlow]

She's in control.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yeah, she's got your life in her hands and so there's not much you can do. You can't punch her in the face. It's gonna cause you guys to crash. So at that moment you're still hoping you can get out of it. Okay. And I think for me, when I look at it and I, and I said this, you know, it's not 100% certainty what, what happened here, but I think with the totality of what we have, it leans in the, in the direction of this was deliberate. And that's why I think she got 15 years for Dom and 15 years for Davion. But what was important is that the judge made it concurrent, not consecutive. And that's important because it goes from a minimum sentence of 15 to 30 if she had went consecutive. And I think she's looking at it where she sees a young girl without any remorse, her bonehead parents sitting behind her, trying to make explicitly, yeah, blindly

[Stephanie Harlow]

believing everything she says and knowing that

[Derek Levasseur]

this girl, if it wasn't for her, if she doesn't believe this was a medical issue, whether it was reckless driving, an argument, deliberate, whatever it was, she is the reason that those two boys are dead. And there's no way she could Let her walk away from this without any consequences. So at minimum, she's got 15 years to think about what she did and hopefully mature. But I will say, based on the interview, she's not there yet.

[Stephanie Harlow]

So what do you think about the prosecution basically saying that they think she did it for attention? They kind of tried to make it, or the Lisa documentary kind of made it seem like definitely showed no remorse. Right. And I think that's where a lot of the hatred towards mackenzie.

[Derek Levasseur]

I mean, she was doing selfies like, of dead people or like Halloween three months after this happened and trying to

[Stephanie Harlow]

get, like, partnerships online. Like, I'm excited. It reminded me of. It reminded me a lot of Michelle Carter. I'm not sure if you are familiar with that. It's actually a New England case with Conrad. The text messages. He was in the truck. She's like, kill yourself. And then she tried to use his death to be like my boyfriend. And I'm devastated to get attention.

[Derek Levasseur]

And no doubt that is mackenzie for sure, and that's why she's so unlikable.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Does that mean that she intentionally did it or is she capitalizing?

[Derek Levasseur]

I don't think if. I don't think you hit that wall thinking you're going to survive.

[Stephanie Harlow]

It's really difficult for me, and this could just be me and. And where I'm at, to look at this girl and be like, she knowingly drove into a brick wall at 100 miles per hour not knowing that you're gonna walk out of there alive. Right. Because, you know, the doc, the documentary kind of made it seem like she knew she was going to walk out alive and she wanted to get the attention and this, this and that. She wanted to be a star, she wanted to be a model. She wanted to be a social media influencer. You'd have to know you were going to survive. How would you know that? How would you know that?

[Derek Levasseur]

There's no way you can.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Or that you wouldn't be like, disabled. You know, good luck with your modeling career now when you're disfigured or the car caught on fire, you know, you don't know what's going to happen. Do they have information from her phone where she's like, looking up, oh, how can I survive a car crash if they had that kind of stuff, which I would. You know, I. I watched the trial and I kind of went through each day that doesn't look like they have that kind of stuff. It's so hard for me to look at this. This girl and say, this is what she Intended to either A, kill all three of them or B, kill the two boys in the car with her and survive.

[Derek Levasseur]

To kind of summarize this, what do you think happened then? Because if it's not that, then you're leaning towards a medical episode and there's no evidence to support it.

[Stephanie Harlow]

I'm not leaning towards a medical episode.

[Derek Levasseur]

So what is it? You saw that camera footage. You see that car driving down that road. You see her. Her slipper stuck to the floor pedal.

[Stephanie Harlow]

I'm. I'm wondering if she was just trying to scare them and once again be manipulative, have, like, their lives in. In her hands, feel powerful.

[Derek Levasseur]

She just misread the. How much road she had left.

[Stephanie Harlow]

She misread how? Yeah, like, maybe she. Maybe it was dark, maybe she didn't see. Maybe she wasn't familiar with the area. Like, I don't know.

[Derek Levasseur]

Well, that they pushed back on that because she had driven that road before. I would say there is a possibility that she was trying to scare Dom

[Stephanie Harlow]

because they were arguing like she had done before. Yeah.

[Derek Levasseur]

And she didn't anticipate how quickly that ending was coming to at the end of the road.

[Stephanie Harlow]

I mean, even if she's used to driving high. Right. It's still dumb. Slows down your reaction time. Exactly. So, I mean, yeah, you. You get high and smoke and drive all the time, but you don't get high and smoke and drive 100 miles per hour towards a brick wall all the time. So that could have been something that she. She misread.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yeah. Whatever the case, her actions, her conscious actions led to the death of these two young men. And when you look at that video, there's no other way to interpret this vehicle traveling at that rate of speed, but staying perfectly in the line on her side of the road and making those minor inputs to the steering wheel to stay on the road, even at that bend. That, to me, is what really did her in. It's clear cut that she was conscious and in control of her vehicle.

[Stephanie Harlow]

It's very. It's fair. It's very messed up. Like, you just. I don't like it. I don't like it.

[Derek Levasseur]

I got a question for you. It was posed to me online. I'm going to pose it to you and I'm posing it to everybody listening or watching right now. They made the decision to go with a bench trial over a jury trial. Knowing what you know now, do you think that was the right decision?

[Stephanie Harlow]

No, because I think there would have been somebody like me on the jury. Like there was Somebody on Casey Anthony's jury, you know, who looks at this young girl and is like, I need to make sure 100% beyond a reasonable doubt that you sped. I mean, even it's, it's still reckless endangerment one way or the other. Right. But murder, you know, like, I need to know beyond a reasonable doubt that this girl intended to kill these two people in the car with her.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yeah. And you are right. Manslaughter would have been different than murder. My.

[Stephanie Harlow]

That's the same thing with, with Casey Anthony. Right. Didn't they, they, they kind of overshot their coverage with what they were trying to charge her with. And they didn't really had, they only really had the circumstantial evidence. And that's why the jury had a. Looking at Casey Anthony, how young she was and with the, the evidence that they had and saying, yeah, let's throw this girl in prison for the rest of her life for murder.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yeah.

[Stephanie Harlow]

So, yeah, she definitely would have fared better with a jury trial.

[Derek Levasseur]

I think I go back and forth on it. I think that her lawyers knew how unlikable she was and how unlikable her parents were. And a jury is more likely to go off emotion. And you may have someone who sides with you, but you could also have a jury go, this kid just doesn't get it. And, and find her guilty as well. I mean, we will never truly know.

[Stephanie Harlow]

The judge is still going to be the one that decides the sentencing though, right?

[Derek Levasseur]

It decides the sentencing. But I think they were hoping that the judge who's going to in more than likely be more pragmatic and objective than a jury. I would think that they thought, hey, if we just can present enough reasonable doubt, we're going to get this whole thing thrown out. That was the hope.

[Stephanie Harlow]

There was no way that was going to get thrown out.

[Derek Levasseur]

The judge was not having it. She was not having it. And you know, the judge did say that she could spend the rest of her life in prison. I don't think she will. I think you'll get a lenient parole board.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Now, Michelle Carter didn't.

[Derek Levasseur]

Well, although I will say parole in Ohio apparently is very difficult, but because of the gray area, the same reason we're covering it, the same reason Netflix did, there's some questions there and I do think that'll be presented in 15 years to say, hey, I did not kill these people intentionally. I'm in here for a crime I did not commit. I done 15 years. I've learned my lesson. I'm 30 something years old now.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Well, then she. She'll have to come forward at some point and be like, yeah, I was trying to say, stop pretending you don't remember.

[Derek Levasseur]

I mean, I think that's the safest bet for her.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Take some accountability here.

[Derek Levasseur]

I don't remember. She won't do it. She won't do it. She's going to. She's going to go to her grave saying she doesn't remember. I did see some things online that says that she may have said she saw orange lights right before hitting the wall. I don't know. She's definitely a liar. There's no doubt about it. And I think when you look at her, there's something about her eyes. To me, sitting across from her and that. And at that table in that prison, like, you just look at her and you could tell she's lying through her teeth. That's my opinion.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Okay.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yeah.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Usually I'm the one that's going this hard.

[Derek Levasseur]

I mean, listen, the Netflix did her dirty by leaving in there where she's got, like, this emotional kind of, you know, presentation to her, and then she looks over at the lawyer like, hey, anything else I got to say real quick?

[Stephanie Harlow]

It's almost like an actor, dude, Netflix does everyone dirty. And that's why it's so hard for me to, like, take it, because I know what.

[Derek Levasseur]

That is fair.

[Stephanie Harlow]

I know what they do.

[Derek Levasseur]

That is fair. But they had a narrative that they wanted to put across. You're not sure.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Did.

[Derek Levasseur]

But I. Only from people online and people from that community. Apparently there was even more.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Oh, I believe it.

[Derek Levasseur]

Even the incident that you referred to earlier. And this episode's getting long. But she. There was at the end of the episode, Mackenzie's parents are like, oh, we have text messages saying that it was actually Dom putting her in danger. No, Dom opened the door because she was driving and was refusing to stop.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Oh, in the. The earlier July incident.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yes.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Yeah, yeah.

[Derek Levasseur]

And then. And then she tried to turn it back on him.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Yeah. The friend said he saw a scuffle inside the car and that Mackenzie was, like, raising her hands at Dom and

[Derek Levasseur]

he heard her say, I'll crash his car.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what he says.

[Derek Levasseur]

Come on.

[Stephanie Harlow]

That's what he says.

[Derek Levasseur]

That's what he says. And I mean, yeah, he could be. He could be.

[Stephanie Harlow]

He is Dom putting himself in the friend. So, yeah, okay, so. But that's what he says he heard. And so I. Yeah, it's just hard for very young girl. I. I know teenage girls, to me, they're all kind of psychopaths, you know what I mean?

[Derek Levasseur]

Not all of them are driving into walls at 100 miles per hour.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Their. Their brains haven't developed. They're very selfish. And I don't mean just teenage girls, teenagers in general. Like, their brains haven't developed. They're geared towards being selfish. So I don't like to say that girl's a psychopath. With Michelle Carter, I had no problem saying it because there was so, so many text messages and to see her telling him to get back in the car when he said he was scared and wanted to get out. Like, honestly, Michelle Carter, who's already out of prison, by the way. She can, she can f right off. But yeah, it's. It's. It's hard.

[Derek Levasseur]

Well, I'm glad you kind of took the other side on this one. I think you're gonna be in the minority.

[Stephanie Harlow]

I know, I know I am. And I'm probably gonna get destroyed and somebody's gonna be like, Ms. Stephanie.

[Derek Levasseur]

Well, you're not saying she's not guilty of a crime.

[Stephanie Harlow]

I'm just saying it's hard.

[Derek Levasseur]

You're. You're saying that you didn't see intent proven here, which is a valid argument. Yeah, it's a valid argument. I think they just built up a case and, and painted a picture and, and showed that there's no other way around it.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Unless you're absolutely an insane person who has no self preservation. You're like, I'm going to kill us all. Yeah, that's crazy.

[Derek Levasseur]

Thirty seconds, man. It could have been a crime, you know, just a heat of the moment thing. But I also think it's possible she just was scaring them and, and I

[Stephanie Harlow]

hope that's what it was.

[Derek Levasseur]

I mean, for me, just so it's very clear, I think she deliberately hit the wall. I would expect if, hypothetically. I know we keep going back and forth here. If she was driving at a high rate of speed to scare them and then unfortunately misread how much real estate she had left in the road, what would you expect to see when she realized that?

[Stephanie Harlow]

A jolt of the steering wheel right at the last.

[Derek Levasseur]

How about pressing the brake? Stephanie? What's your natural reaction when you're about to hit something? You hit the brake. Her foot was down to the floor on that gas pedal as it hit the wall. There was no attempt to stop.

[Stephanie Harlow]

I mean, it's hard sometimes, I think when you look at, like, what people do and you could never imagine doing that yourself, it's hard to wrap your head around it. So. Well, I don't know. I'm gonna look more into it, actually. I'm gonna look more into it. I've been reading more into it. That's what I was doing today before we sat down, so. So I definitely wanna look more into it and figure that out.

[Derek Levasseur]

We wanna hear your thoughts on this one, guys. It's a polarizing case, hence the reason that Netflix covered it. And it's gonna get a lot of attention now. We wanted to cover it because we got Crime Con coming up in a week or so, and we know it's not. By the time we would be able to cover it, it'd be too long for a crime weekly. So we covered it. Here, Let us know your thoughts on it. We'll be back later this week with part two of Carrie Farver. And so we're gonna keep diving into it. Cause this is a tangled web.

[Stephanie Harlow]

What a tangled web we weave.

[Derek Levasseur]

Yep. Everyone stay safe. We'll see you later this week.

[Stephanie Harlow]

Bye, guys.