B (4:53)

Marriage, so the first thing that jumped out to me as I was listening is that it sounds like she is somebody who is very into like, personal development. Right. Like, so it sounds like she probably has had her own therapist is looking up all of these resources around relationships and parenting. Like, she's doing a lot of emotional labor. And we know that that is largely invisible to a lot of people, especially if they are not likewise invested. And so I think what's happening is that a lot of that is being missed and her partner is not seeing, like, the load she's really carrying to make sure that, you know, she's doing great job in parenting and, like, bringing all these things to her partner. And I think the resentment has already started. Yes. It feels like I'm hearing some of that even coming through.

A (5:38)

I was thinking the same thing. Like, it. It sounds like because the emotional labor, like you said, is norm, it can be very invisible to others, especially if it's a dynamic where your other. The other person is carrying the financial load. In this capitalist society, and I'm always bringing back to capitalism, we can. I think sometimes we tend to view the person who's paying the majority of the bills as, like, the one who's really putting in work and being valuable to this. Like, well, what would you do without me? If I hop jobs like you did, then where would we really be? So I think sometimes that work, like you said, goes unnoticed, so it goes unappreciated. But I wonder if simply not doing it is the answer here.

B (6:23)

I know, especially when a child is involved, like, you don't want to just.

A (6:26)

Be like, oh, are you ready?

B (6:29)

You got it right? But it does sound like she's also offering a lot of solutions that, like, the partner has not asked for. Right. And so I think that that feels like a conversation that is needed to have. Like, okay, what is going to be the plan for parenting? Like, is this something that you want me to kind of take over? Because in some ways it sounds like she kind of has. Or is it that they want it to be more of a discussion? Because it feels like, you know, when people give you unsolicited advice that you have not asked for, you usually dismiss it.

A (6:59)

Right, Right.

B (7:00)

And so it feels like that's what's happening. And sadly, this is her partner. You would expect it not to happen, but it is.

A (7:05)

Yes, it is. No, that's such a good point. Because Monique said, you know, you had a child when we met. And so I started reading parenting blogs and coming to you with all this stuff. And when I bring things up gently, she gets defensive. Cause she did not ask. Damn. Yeah. Oh, you're right. Yeah.

B (7:24)

She didn't ask for it.

A (7:26)

So, you know, even though your mom taught you, a suggestion without a solution is just a complaint, it can feel like, and it may feel like this to your wife, what you're really doing is complaining, but trying to make it seem like you're being helpful. Yes, exactly. So it's like, yeah, I don't appreciate your input here. I don't want. I didn't ask for you to take these steps and just, you know, this defensiveness is because I didn't want you to do this. But then, you know, we've been together for seven years. We've been married for two. How do we get on the same page then as far as, like, what is my role with regard to parenting this child? And, you know, are you, are you feeling valued for the things you do that are welcome or are needed? Like, it seems to me that if it was really that annoying, wouldn't the wife have said something by now like, I don't need your help with raising this kid or.

B (8:22)

Right. Yeah, she didn't say that. So it doesn't sound like that has been said, but I wonder if maybe she's feeling it.

A (8:27)

Well, I would think, I think my assumption is if we're married, married, of course I want you to be a parent to this child, but we have to have a conversation about what that looks like because, you know, this is a step parent situation. So do you think that's where Monique should start this conversation?

B (8:47)

Well, I think that they are the perfect candidates for couples therapy. Okay, now, she didn't say that. No, she didn't talk about her own therapy, but it sounds like she is very well versed in, like, a lot of that. So maybe she's just, you know, found resources. But if they haven't thought about couples therapy, I think that they would really be ideal candidates because it feels like it's still early enough where things have not completely fallen off the rails. But I am already picking up some resentment and, like, I'm feeling dis. Like I'm disappearing here. My, my stuff is not valuable. And so if they could talk with a therapist about, okay, how do we get on the same page in terms of parenting? How can I offer you suggestions and feedback without it sounding like I'm complaining to you? Like, I feel like even maybe just a couple of sessions would be really good to just help them to kind of get all of this stuff on the table.

A (9:34)

Yes, I agree. And I am wondering what your wife has to say about, you know, sort of her side of things. And that's something that, with the right couples therapist, that's naturally gonna come out and you may hear her say things you never heard her say before.

B (9:49)

Yes.

A (9:49)

Maybe she's never, you know, felt like she could or didn't have the words for it. There are some. So many things my therapist helped me learn to identify within myself and begin to be able to express because it's just something that's been there. It's a feeling or a notion, but you don't really know what it is. Your partner could be really, really frustrated by the fact that you don't have consistent employment. And you know, you're like, I just refuse to let a toxic workplace destroy me. And she's like, well, my workplace is toxic too. Like, and yeah, I get to work from home, but this is still a stressful job. And if I was like, well, I'm not letting toxicity destroy me, then, you know, it can feel like, how come I can do it but you can't do it? Yeah.

B (10:30)

There may even be some resentment on her part.

A (10:32)

Yes, that's what I'm saying. You're resentful as she is too. She's like me. Well, since we talking about it, actually.

B (10:39)

Let'S talk about it.

A (10:40)

I have an attitude as well. Yes. So, you know, the question of like, how do I keep giving love and effort without losing myself or resenting her until you all can get in to see a couple's therapist, I mean, I don't see the harm in asking her. Is this helpful for you, for me to be doing all this research and coming to you like with suggestions what we can do with our 9 year old or whatever? Is this, is this the best way for me to support you since you are carrying the financial load? What would be best? Like what? In what ways can I show up that are more useful for not just you, but for our relationship? Because it feels like I'm putting in effort for something that isn't appreciated.

B (11:26)

Yeah.

A (11:27)

But I would absolutely recommend a couples therapists to help you all sort through these issues. We're wishing you good luck, Monique. All right, our next letter comes from Mary, who says, my husband and I just celebrated 20 years of marriage, but things have become very stressful at home. His mother recently moved in with us after his sister asked her to leave. She appears to have an undiagnosed mental illness with psychosis and spends most of the day talking to herself. We live in a small two bedroom apartment with our young son who is autistic and it's becoming mentally overwhelming for me. His mother has always been verbally and mentally abusive towards my husband and his sister. For as long as I can remember, I've told my husband that his mother needs medical help, but he refuses to consider other options because he doesn't want to put her out on the street or in a home. I understand his position, but I'm struggling to cope. I've had my own battles with depression in the past, and her presence is really affecting my mental health and peace at home. Am I wrong for wanting her to move out? Right now, my only concern is the well being of myself and my son. Any advice you could offer would mean a lot. Thanks, Mary.

B (12:37)

So it feels like this is operating in extremes. So he's saying, like, oh, I refuse to put her out. She has nowhere to go. But is there a step we could explore? Like, it sounds like Mary is trying to do around, like, can we get her to psychiatrist? You know, so it doesn't mean that she completely has to leave, but if she's not getting support and like all of these, you know, mental health concerns are posing an issue for you in your life and your son. And can we not at least start there? Right. So we don't have to start by putting her out, but can we talk to someone about what's going on to get her some help?

A (13:10)

Yes. Dr. Joyce said we do not have to go straight to your mother's living on the sidewalk. We can start with, let's go to therapyforblackgirls.com and see who's available in our area. Filter by insurance and availability. You know, we gotta figure some things out. Can they prescribe medications? There's a box too, you know, we go to. Because I think this is also a situation where the resentment is very easy to grow because it's like you're expecting me by saying, you know, how about we get your mom some help? And you say, well, I'm not going to have my mama put out or whatever that feels like. You're telling me to simply deal with whatever it is she's doing and you're not interested in finding a solution that works for me. That's what that feels like to me. If I were in Mary's position, it would feel like my spouse is just telling me to get over it because, like, that's my mama, so. Oh, well, yes, that's your mama. And of course, you know, most of us don't want to see our parents down and out. But if. If she doesn't get the help she needs, what is going to improve how and how Right. How are things supposed to get any better if she just doesn't ever get any help? So I don't think you're wrong for wanting her to move out because you know, you want, what you ultimately want is peace.

B (14:30)

Right.

A (14:31)

You want peace in your home.

B (14:32)

Exactly.

A (14:33)

You don't want bad things for your mother in law. But how does, how can she have this conversation with her husband of like, okay, so let's find something in between me dealing with this unfiltered every day and her being homeless.

B (14:50)

I think presenting it to him in that way, like, you know, like, hey, it feels like you're operating in extremes here. And I'm not saying we need to put her out. What I am saying is that for the peace of everybody and the health and safety of everybody in the house, something needs to happen here and we need to get her some additional support. Otherwise I'm going to be really unhappy here. You know, like in this situation it just doesn't work. Like the sister has already asked the mom to leave. And so if this boils over with her, then at some point Mary might ask like, hey, you gotta go or I gotta go. Right. I wanna prevent it from getting to that place.

A (15:23)

Yes. Cause I feel like that's where Mary's headed.

B (15:25)

That's where she is. Cause she's like, am I wrong for asking her to leave? Right. So Mary is like, let's get her out of here too. You know, I do think that there could be a middle ground where we get mom some support and then, you know, things are better for everybody.

A (15:38)

Yes. And she did say, right now my only concern is the well being of me and my child. So you're not even thinking about your husband. You already at the place of like, what husband? I'm worried about me and my baby. We got to figure out what we gonna do. Like, oh, that's to me, that's a sign that you are, this is pushing you to your limits and understandably so. And like, listen, she's already been put out of other homes. She's clearly a lot to deal with. Caretakers need support. Yeah, absolutely, 100%. It is so easy to be burned out. You, you need somebody to talk to like you, you need places to, to get out your frustrations and work through that. And your mother in law needs help too. Like she's not, she's not well, I don't know if it's psychosis or if she's experiencing something else, but she needs some assistance here that the two of you, by providing a roof over her head. That's not sufficient.

B (16:36)

Right. And I wonder if Mary is kind of acting as the primary caregiver here. Right? Like is she. Yeah. Like is the brunt of the caregiving actually falling on her?

A (16:45)

Y.

B (16:46)

So that would probably add to any.

A (16:48)

Exhaustion and you know, that's probably the case. You know, they living in a small two bedroom apartment, their six year old son is autistic or I don't even think. No, she didn't even say the age, just small son, young son with autism. So, you know, you're already dealing with the challenges of having an autistic young child and now your husband's like, yeah, my mom is here all day too deal with her.

B (17:09)

Right.

A (17:10)

Hold the phone. Mama's already got a lot to deal with. So yes. Having that conversation with your husband before you get to the point of, okay, it's me or her, who you gonna choose? And hopefully you all have the access to the resources that you need to get your mother in law the help she needs. Like, I would love for this to have a happier ending for you, Mary. So wishing you the best of luck. Our next letter comes from Rita, who says, I'm writing in because life has decided to slam all the dominoes at the same time. And I'm trying to figure out what's actually healthy versus what's just chaos talking. Both of my parents are going through serious health problems right now. My mom is preparing for open heart surgery after a heart failure diagnosis and my dad is navigating prostate cancer treatment options. I'm scared, overwhelmed and trying to hold it together for my 4 year old while also dealing with a recent diagnosis of postpartum depression. In the middle of all this, my relationship is cracking in a way that feels way too familiar. My boyfriend and I have had repeated issues around how he shows up for me emotionally. He's promised to do better, but when crisis hit, instead of stepping in, he zeroed in on my tone. Yes, I was short with him. I was terrified and overstimulated. I asked him to leave in the moment, then freaked out and asked him to come back because I genuinely needed comfort. Instead of seeing the distress behind that, he chose resentment for two damn days. So now I'm dealing with my parents health scares, postpartum depression, my child, and a partner who says he loves me but doesn't seem to understand what emotional support looks like when things are actually hard. I also recently lost my job, so I'm financially dependent on him right now and that makes it hard to know if I'm Staying because I love him or because I literally need help surviving? How do I tell the difference between a partner who's emotionally limited versus one who's just reacting badly in the moment? And how do I think clearly about this relationship when my mental health and financial situation are both in crisis mode? I don't want to make a fear based decision, but I also don't want to overlook the obvious if he's showing me who he is. Thanks, Rita.

B (19:20)

I'm feeling like I need to take a deep breath after just hearing you read. And so I can imagine what it feels like to live in Rita's life.

A (19:28)

Because this is postpartum. Both parents going through serious life or death. Right. And you've got a four year old. It. This is just so much. And then the situation with the partner, it sounds like he zeroed in on your tone when you all had this conversation, which I can say that would probably push me over the edge. My tone? Did you hear what I just said about postpartum depression and dealing with a four year old and my parents are dying? And are you worried about my tone? I would probably also feel a bit upset about that. And then the reaction of like, okay, well leave. Well, no, come back. Well, no, I need you. No, I don't. Blah, blah, blah. Like that. That's also confusing. That adds another layer of, you know, things that feel chaotic to the story. So when you're in this sort of situation with a partner, how do you decide or how can you tell the difference between we can work through this versus we can't.

B (20:37)

So her question was like, how do I know if he is just unavailable in the moment versus emotionally unavailable, like period, period. And I think you look at what he has shown you, right? Like the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

A (20:50)

Typically, yes, it is.

B (20:52)

Right. And so if it's the kind of thing where like y' all have a blow up and like he retreat the moment, but then he's able to come back and say, hey, I overreacted, like, let's get back on track. Then I think that that's showing you like, okay, maybe he's difficult to deal with in the moment, but he is able to reset. But I don't hear her saying that. I hear her saying he checks out and then she reinforces the checking out by saying like, oh, you leave and then he stays gone. Right. And so I think if you look at how he has been consistently, that will give you a lot of information about whether he's actually able to show up and Support you emotionally in the ways you need?

A (21:27)

Yes. One of the things I think was so useful about grad school was learning what emotional support really looks like and how big of a task that is to ask, Especially when I feel like most people are not even really at a level of true emotional maturity. So then you're asking people to be able to support you when they don't even really know what that looks like for themselves, much less others. What can we do when it's like, I have needs that are at a level that you can't meet? Because again, this partner or Rita is going through a lot of things that, you know, most of us are not equipped to handle postpartum depression in a way other than like, well, what can I do for you? What do you need? But we don't know how to work with you. You know, you gotta go to school for a lot of years to really know how to do that. So it's like, what's fair to ask of an everyday person?

B (22:28)

Well, the other thing that I was struck by and that I was thinking was, where is her additional support? Because even if the partner. Of course, we want your partner to be a part of your support system, but they can't be the only one, especially with all of these things going on. And so I think, you know, are there other girlfriends, other family members that you can kind of pull into your circle of support so that you have other people? Yes, because it may be that there's a type of support that you need that doesn't actually have to come from your partner. Like, maybe it's ideal if he's the one you go to, but it could also be great if it's a girlfriend. Right. Or a cousin or, you know, So I think when we look for our partner to be the person who meets all of these needs, we get into a lot of trouble. They can't possibly meet all of our needs.

A (23:11)

Exactly. And I think when we think about this in other contexts, it makes sense. Like certain issues, I'm gonna go to my besties about others. I might go to my partner others. I'm gonna ask my family, mom, cousins, whomever. Like, we sort of naturally gravitate to who we think is best suited in the moment. But when you have so much happening and it is all feels so huge, I think most of us are like, oh, well, yeah, my partner. Like, who else?

B (23:36)

He's in live in support.

A (23:37)

You are, you know, you're this child's other parent. We share a home. Like, we. We have. We're partners. We share lives. So I think a lot of us are like, well, okay, if my man is getting an attitude with me because of this and being mad at me for two days, then is this a relationship worth staying in? Well, I mean, sometimes. And when you add in being financially dependent, that's a whole nother level. Because what if you're like, well, damn, I'm looking at his past behavior, and he's actually kind of raggedy. Like, he never shows up for me emotionally. Maybe this isn't the relationship for me, but how do I leave when I'm not working and not in a position to start working soon either? Do you think that's a situation where she can try to have a conversation with him about, like, maybe? I think we need additional support outside of this relationship. Like, do you think that's something worth asking?

B (24:37)

Yes. Yeah. I mean, possibly. But it also could be an additional financial strain right now. Like, I wonder, like, you know, if he. Does he have enough finances, like, to support, like, all extras, all of that also, or is he. Are they just kind of doing enough to kind of, you know, stay afloat? But definitely, if there are other resources to explore talking with a therapist, I think that that could be helpful. But also, just, you know, her seeking support from other places, I think would make it so that she doesn't feel so, like, focused on the support she's not getting from him. You know, like, if you're getting it from other places, then maybe you feel like there's a little more breathing room. I also think right now is probably not the time to make a decision about whether she wants to stay in the relationship.

A (25:18)

Right? Absolutely.

B (25:20)

All of these things going on. Like, that's not when you want to make big life choices. But I think it's fair to explore, like, okay, do I really see a future with this person when I am in crisis? I feel like they are not showing up in the ways that I need them to. I also wonder if she has been very explicit in asking for what she needs. Right. Because again, like you said, most people don't know how to just swoop in and say, okay, let me support my postpartum partner. But can she say, like, hey, I need you to watch the baby on Sunday afternoon so I can go get a massage or I can go hang out with my friends. Like, are you very clear in asking for what you need? Because then maybe he's able to show up for what you need without him trying to guess.

A (25:59)

Yes.

B (25:59)

And you hoping that he just gets it right.

A (26:01)

And I think sometimes A lot of us do feel like, well, why should I have to ask? You should know. You should know. You should know that I need help. You should know I need a break. Why do I have to say that? But I think people also are very much living in their own heads, in their own lives, and they're not. I would. I'm torn on this, Dr. Joy, because I feel like, on the one hand, you're also a parent.

B (26:22)

True.

A (26:23)

Yes. Now you don't understand I need a break.

B (26:25)

Right, Right.

A (26:27)

How you don't understand that. Right. But on the other, what is. What do you lose by saying it?

B (26:34)

Right, Right. Yeah. Like, do you want the break, or do you want him to know that you need the break?

A (26:38)

Right.

B (26:38)

Like, the break is what is important here.

A (26:42)

I need brunch real bad. I need it. Dr. Joy. Yes. I think the advice for reaching out for support from other people is so spot on, especially because Rita is afraid of making a decision that she'll regret. Something based out of fear or the feelings. Right. Now, when you have other support from these other loved ones, people who can see you, hear you, understand you, make you feel those things, then you can shift. Your nervous system can shift into a place that's calmer. So you're like, okay, everything is trash, But I can handle the trash. I'm in a place now. Like, I can think more clearly because I'm not. My nerves aren't fried thinking about this man and all his shortcomings or whatever else.

B (27:30)

So I just want to add one more thing, because also, because her parents have such significant health concerns, there may be support groups that she can tap into as, like, a caregiver that would give her some breathing room and, like, support around their issues. But still, some, you know, who knows what connections they might have to get her connected to, like, a postpartum support group or so I think looking at that opportunity could also be something that opens up some, you know, space for her.

A (27:57)

Yes. And, I mean, group therapy has its limitations, but I think groups are so great for people who are dealing with caretaker burnout or grief, things along that nature, just being able to commiserate with others. Sometimes we can feel like our problems are unique to us, and they really, really are not. That was one of the most profound things I learned in grad school, where it's like, I just felt like, oh, my God, I'm so messed up. Oh, I'm so messed up. I went through all this. Dr. Joy, when I say in them textbooks, all the little vignettes were me. They were Me, I'm like, I have not had one single unique experience.

B (28:33)

None of us have.

A (28:34)

And all of this is explained. There's an explanation for all of all makes sense. Like when you sit down and learn about it, you're like, I am just a girl. And anybody else in the same situation would have felt this way, would have, you know, it's very possible you would have had this and reacted this way. Like, you may also be putting a lot on yourself right now. Rita, this is just a. It's a multi layered, complex situation. But I think Dr. Joy has given you a lot of really great options here for moving forward. Good luck to you. Our next letter comes from Jill. Well, it would if I. What just happened? Okay. And Jill says I'm the strong friend in my circle, the one everyone looks at as the successful one. And honestly, I've worn that title proudly. But I'm also the strong friend who just blew up a 10 year relationship by cheating on my girlfriend. That was completely out of character for me. And the guilt, plus the breakup hit me like a truck. While all of that was happening, I still had to run my business, work my full time job, and keep pretending I had it together. I stressed myself out so badly that I triggered an autoimmune flare. And even then, something still felt off in my head. So I finally sat down with a psychiatrist, and after the assessment, they diagnosed me with bipolar 2 disorder. I'm starting medication soon. My question is, how do I tell my friends? They see me as the one who always powers through. And I don't know how to share something this heavy without feeling like I'm letting them down or making it weird. What's the healthiest way to approach this conversation? Thanks for reading. I really appreciate any guidance on this, Jill.

B (30:20)

I'm really glad Jill wrote in so same. Yeah. Because it feels like she's dealing with a lot of internal stigma related to what it means to have a diagnosis like a bipolar disorder.

A (30:30)

Right, Right.

B (30:30)

And so I think it is. It can be a conversation you have just like any other conversation. Like, hey. And you may even start by saying like, hey, this feels a little awkward or weird for me to tell y', all, but I feel like you need to know because you're my support circle. Right. But it doesn't make you any less of a good friend or a good person. You're not flawed or broken because you have this diagnosis. I think if anything, this helps you to get some clarity around maybe decisions like the cheating that you didn't really understand before. Like it Helps to give you some rationale for why certain things maybe have happened in your life.

A (31:04)

Right. Because to me it sounds like Jill has gotten very good at masking and no matter what she had on or going on, she was able to put on the brave face. And you know, I can relate in some ways. This is not my diagnosis, but I was, I, and still am the type to. No matter what is going on, my entire personal life could be falling apart. I'mma go to work. I'mma go to work. You do not have to worry about me. If I said I'm going to be there, I'm going to be there. And so, you know, when you are looked at as like this strong friend, really successful, always has it together, sometimes people don't see the human behind us because we can seem like superwoman. So do you think Jill should include any sort of resources explaining bipolar 2 disorder or anything like that to her friends? Because I don't think the average person really knows enough about it.

B (31:57)

Or they do know it's like wrong.

A (31:58)

Or they're right, they're thinking, oh, what you been a stab hanging off.

B (32:02)

Right, Right. Yeah. So I don't think it would hurt to offer like some resources around, you know, bipolar disorders. We have a great episode of this therapy for black girls. Of course she is about bipolar disorders, you know, so I think it could help to give like accurate information. But I also think it's okay to let your circle do their own research. Right. So like they can. Because again, I think that is you trying to over function even in the telling. Right. Like, okay, I'm gonna tell you this, but I don't want to give you all these resources to support you when it should be the circle supporting you right now.

A (32:33)

Right? Right. Because I mean, and Jill even said, you know, I don't know how to share something like this without feeling like I'm letting them down or making it weird. Now why is it letting them down to have an issue? Why is feels like Jill is maybe judging herself for not being this perfect person. Like, you're not making it weird by being human. Right. Maybe you have friends who also have this disorder and can give you suggestions for how to manage it. Or girl, I tried this and this and blah blah, like you just really never know. But I think you by sharing this, you may unlock another level of friendship because there's really only so deep your relationships can go when you can't be vulnerable with others. And this is you saying, hey, I'm exposing myself to you in this way. This is Private. It's personal. It's something that I'm really not even totally clear on how I feel about it. But you're my friend, and I want to share it with you. And the way they react, you have to allow people the opportunity to support you and say, oh, my God, girl, I had no idea. What do you need? I love you. I'm rooting for you, however that may look.

B (33:45)

Yeah, yeah, I completely agree with you. I definitely think this can deepen the friendships. And one of my favorite questions to ask clients when they are struggling with something like this, she's saying, I feel like I'm going to let them down. Who told you that story? Where did that story come from? Like, and I wonder how much of that is also governing the dynamics of their friendship.

A (34:06)

Right.

B (34:06)

That she feels like I'm gonna let them down by, like you said, sharing this very human thing about who I am.

A (34:13)

I also wonder if Jill even told the truth about how her relationship ended because, you know, she cheated on her girlfriend and all that. It sounds like, you know, I can't even be real with my friends about what happened with the end of my relationship because then you'll see that I did something wrong, and maybe you won't look at me as, like, perfect Jewel anymore. So there's really. I'm glad you've gotten started with a psychiatrist, but let me tell you, them people sit you down for 10 to 15 minutes, order them meds, and then they get you right out of there. So a therapist who's trained to work with people who have your diagnosis is going to help a lot. A whole lot. But I think, yeah, just. I think as far as the healthiest way of approaching the conversation, if your friends are local, I would invite them over maybe to your home or something like that. Sit down, like, just want to talk to you guys, blah, blah, blah. If they're not, maybe a zoom or something like that, I wouldn't do it by text. I wouldn't put it in the group chat.

B (35:10)

Yeah. I think it is a visual conversation.

A (35:13)

I think it is a visual conversation. Absolutely. But, you know, Jill, give your friends the chance to be your friends.

B (35:21)

Yeah. To show up. Probably the way she has shown up for them in all kinds of ways.

A (35:25)

Right. No matter what they had going on, you were probably right there. So you don't have to always be the strong one. You can be the one who needs help, too, because we all do. We are only human. Oh, Dr. Joy, I can't believe we're already at our last letter. Also, Dr. Joy said, I completely agree with you. I will be carrying that in my heart for the rest of my life. What? Okay. Anyway, back to being professional. Our last letter is from Josie who says, I'm a 31 year old black woman in Atlanta just trying to make it. Oh girl, I'm in your city. Okay, I've run into a recent dilemma and I hope you can help. I've been seeing my therapist for nearly two years. She's black too and I love the work we've been doing. She was a therapist I found through my jobs free therapy program. I had a therapist at the time, but I liked her therapy style more and eventually started doing sessions with just her. Plus it was free. Unfortunately, I lost that job so I would have to pay out of pocket to continue to see her. She didn't charge me for those sessions during that time, which was more than kind. Four months later I got a new job and she now accepts my new insurance. However, the deductible is a little high so I have to pay out of pocket for several sessions until I meet it. Since I was out of work for so long, I'm still financially recovering from the job loss, so therapy is getting expensive. My new job also has a free therapy program. However, unlike the last job, I don't have a pool of therapists to choose from. They offer one therapist. I asked my current therapist if we could spread out our sessions and I used the free therapist in between as needed and she agreed. So I signed up for an intake with the new therapist. During our session she asked me if I've done therapy before and I was honest and explained my situation. She was visibly confused, saying it would be a bad idea to see both therapists. In fact, she said verbatim that she could not believe my therapist would even go along with this and told me that if I continued to see my current therapist she would not be comfortable seeing me and there would be an ethics problem if they gave conflicting suggestions. I told her that I've done this before without conflict and I think I should have at least a few regular therapy sessions with her before making a decision to cut off my other therapist and she reluctantly agreed to that. Another thing is that this new therapist is Indian, so I'm already hesitating about seeing a therapist who's not a black woman. My question is, is this new therapist right? Have I been unethical all that time that I temporarily saw two therapists? Should I not have mentioned my other therapist? What would you suggest? Moving forward. Thanks, Josie.

B (38:00)

So Josie, you are not unethical, because you're not the one.

A (38:02)

That's not your responsibility.

B (38:03)

Yeah. Like, the ethics is the.

A (38:04)

It's on people. Them almost said us. That's them. The ethic is on the. Yes. Yeah. It's on the provider.

B (38:12)

Yeah. I was a little surprised, though, when the therapist said, oh, yeah, see both of us. Because most therapists do not. Unless it's a very clear. Like, maybe you're seeing one therapist for couples therapist, and I'm your individual therapist, or maybe you're seeing somebody for substance and stuff, and then I see you for something else. So in some cases, it does work. But before. Before, the reasons she outlined, like, you don't want me to tell you one thing, and then you see another therapist who tells you something that's like, opposite. And then you're, like, confused in your treatment plan.

A (38:40)

Right.

B (38:40)

So most therapists will not just kind of generally work with you and you're actively seeing another therapist.

A (38:46)

Yes.

B (38:47)

So I'm not. So I was surprised to hear the therapist say, like, just go see the other person. But it does feel like this new therapist has taken a very, like, strict kind of, you know, like. Yeah. I mean, now, you know, ethics are up for interpretation. Right. And so, again, I can see why the new therapist would have some concern about it. But it also. I also wonder if she wouldn't just fare better seeing the therapist who she's currently seeing at further distance and just sticking with it.

A (39:20)

Just go bi weekly.

B (39:21)

Yeah.

A (39:22)

And, yeah, I definitely. It's. I'm like, now, look, I only went to school, but we definitely talked about this, you know, this whole you having two therapists at the same time situation. But I do feel Josie. Cause there was a point in my therapy journey, maybe three or four years in, where I was like, what if I had another therapist that I saw a different day of the week, and then I could do double the healing and speed this up. I really considered it. I really was like, let me just. Would that work? And then, you know, ultimately I was like, let me. What am I doing? That sounds ridiculous, but I'm sure that if I brought that up to my regular therapist, she would have been like, let's talk about why you think you need to hurry up and heal. Dr. Dre was thinking it. Let's talk about why you wanna rush.

B (40:12)

This process needs to be double the work every week.

A (40:15)

And I've like, double the copay and double the. I was really like, maybe that's what I need just to help me get out of this even more quickly. But I think it's fair to have a few sessions with a new one. Cause it's possible, you know, like, why would I cut off my current therapist and then you and I don't even vibe.

B (40:31)

Right, right.

A (40:32)

But I also think Dr. Joy's suggestion of just see this one, you know, once a month if you have to, to or, you know, whatever, is more financially sound. That sounds like what falls more in line with my education and what I learned in grad school of, like, you really do not want to mix in. Because these two therapists could have two totally different ways of approaching therapy.

B (40:54)

Well, it sounds like they do from the fact that one said, yes, you can see both of us, and one of them said, absolutely not. So I don't know how long she will buy with the second therapist.

A (41:05)

And it sounds like it won't be too long before you start getting conflicting information. So.

B (41:11)

Yeah.

A (41:12)

Yes. I don't think you did anything wrong by mentioning this therapist. It was for the best that you were honest about it. You had no idea about the ethical implications here. I'm a little surprised the current therapist didn't even bring it up. Didn't even say, well, you know, most therapists won't really be okay with that, so you might struggle to find somebody else. That seems a little strange. But, yeah, moving forward, I think either the seeing the one therapist less often or, I mean, I don't know, is it possible that she can see this other free therapist and then it works out?

B (41:48)

Like, I mean, maybe if they are completely separate issues. But I'm not hearing that. Like, it sounds like this would be the same issue. And you're just wanting to, you know, of course, cause of finances.

A (41:59)

Right.

B (42:00)

But I wonder if she's in a maintenance phase enough to where she would just be okay with, like, I think that that would be the preferred situation is to stick with the current therapist less frequently than to go back and forth between the two of them.

A (42:14)

Yes. So my therapist actually did recommend a substance abuse therapist for me a few years into my treatment, and I did see that person for a short time until I had a better control over drinking specifically. But one of the things that came up was also the sharing of information between therapists where, you know, you have to sign documents that say the therapists can talk to each other about what you have going on. And so the substance abuse therapist was like, trying to get in touch with my therapist. And my therapist was like, no, what she says to me is private between us. You work with her or whatever. She tell you with the drinking and all that. You work with her on that. But I'm not giving her. You. This girl's whole backstory, and I'm not. And she said that to me. She was like, I want you to feel really comfortable about her and all of that before I start having, you know, deep conversations with. With her about you. Because, you know, I. I just. That's not a line that I want to. You know, I don't want to cross and get into that. And I. I was like, I respect it. Because, I mean, at this point, you've been my therapist for years. I have complete trust in you and your judgment. So she did recommend that I see somebody, but she also said, tell her to quit sending me that paperwork. Cause I'm not signing it. Meanwhile, I done signed it. Right?

B (43:33)

You, like, tell her everything.

A (43:34)

Right? And she said, absolutely not. You can tell her what you got going on. She can work with you based off what you have to say to her. I'm not sharing my notes. Okay? It is, and I respect it. So, Josie, I think ultimately you're just looking for some help here. You want to be in a better place, and nobody can fault you for that. But it's good that you brought it up. So now everybody's super clear about what's going on, and you can make an educated decision. Yeah. Good luck. I actually hate to end this. I don't want it to be over. Dr. Joy, so much, thank you so much for being on Chris Couch today again, the true honor of my life, and without your influence, I would hate to think of where I would be now in life. So just thank you again for being yourself and all the things you do. Please tell the people where they can find your wonderful work.

B (44:31)

Yeah. So you can find all of the resources that we have at Therapy for Black Girls Dot com. We have a therapist directory, a weekly podcast, as well as a Patreon channel. And you can find me@hellodoctorjoy.com and grab a copy of Sisterhood Heels at sisterhoodheels. Com.

A (44:48)

Thank you again for being here, and thank you for tuning into Chrysalis Couch. If you have a question for me, send it to advicerisalascouch.com and follow us online at Chrysalis Couch. We'll see you next week.