Session 18 ft. Tracy Clayton

Summary

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Crissle’s Couch — Session 18 ft. Tracy Clayton

Date: March 10, 2026
Host: Crissle
Guest: Tracy Clayton

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Overview

In this heartfelt and hilarious conversation, Crissle welcomes acclaimed podcaster, writer, and executive producer Tracy Clayton to the show. They dive into topics of home, community, Black womanhood, mental health, the evolution of podcasting, and the power of embracing imperfection. With warmth, vulnerability, and their signature wit, the pair reflect on life transitions, the pressures of public life and social media, and the challenge of finding true comfort—without letting shame or the past dictate the journey. This episode is a masterclass in realness, with both hosts balancing deep introspection and laugh-out-loud candor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Reconnecting and Reminiscing

• The “Wild West” Days of Black Podcasting (00:02-01:06)

  • Crissle and Tracy recall the early, close-knit days of Black podcasting, referencing “Another Round,” “The Read,” and others.
  • Tracy refers to it as “the Wild West.” (01:06)
  • Crissle notes the joy and camaraderie of those early years, when Black voices were first seizing the podcast space.

• Leaving New York, Missing Home, and the Realities of Louisville (01:25-07:51)

  • Tracy discusses leaving Brooklyn for Louisville, reflecting on both the nostalgia for New York and the hard truths of returning home.
  • Gentrification and its impact on neighborhoods like Flatbush and Bed Stuy are discussed with both humor and sadness.
  • Tracy: “Bed Stuy has fallen. We lost Bed Stuy.” (02:36)
  • Living in Louisville now feels like “dating an ex again… and remembering why we broke up.” (04:20-04:29)
  • She highlights issues of segregation and neglect in the West End of Louisville, sharing vivid personal stories.

• Systemic Neglect and Black Communities (06:12-07:51)

  • Tracy and Crissle lament city neglect: lack of trash cans, inadequate city services, and the tendency to blame Black communities rather than support them.
  • Tracy: “It’s just Black folk trying to do our best in a city that does not see us, doesn’t hear us…” (06:12)
  • Crissle: “Not too much on the north side. We are doing what we can with what we got.” (09:19-09:24)

The Search for Home and Belonging

• Comparing Cities and the Concept of Home (09:24-12:53)

  • Both discuss the impossibility of affording New York and the “car city” drawback of Louisville.
  • Tracy: “One of my aversions to Louisville is that it’s a car-based city… my anxiety is really, really bad.” (11:58-12:24)
  • The longing for a walkable, vibrant community leads to reflections on what “home” really means after transformation.

• The Familiar vs. The New Self (04:58-05:36; 12:46-13:14)

  • Tracy: “I’m always a woman in transition… can I just stay in this stage for five more years before I have to learn the whole new language of myself?” (04:58-05:14)
  • The challenge of reintegrating with a city—and a self—that has changed.

Black Womanhood, Perfectionism, and Shame

• The Weight of “Being Seen” on Social Media (17:36-27:16)

  • Tracy and Crissle break down how Twitter catalyzed Tracy’s career, made her more visible, and forced her to navigate public perception.
  • Tracy: “I had to learn how to be seen. I had to learn how to be perceived. Girl, I’m so tired of being perceived. Can we talk about this real quick?” (20:30)

• Therapy and the Power of Shared Experience (20:33-22:51)

  • The life-changing value of Black women therapists: “When you speak the same language, the conversation becomes life changing.” (22:45)
  • Small moments of cultural understanding, like wearing a bonnet to therapy, spark profound relief and connection.

• Navigating Shame and Perfectionism (26:22-32:26)

  • Both open up about the difficulty of forgiving past missteps and how Black women are conditioned to hold themselves to impossible standards.
  • Tracy: “Change and transition is beating my ass. But… I have this positive voice in my brain now.” (54:02-54:45)
  • Crissle: “I get to be just as raggedy as the average white man does. Don’t expect no more out of me than you expect out of fucking Billy.” (32:10)

Mental Health, Growth, and Giving Grace

• Struggles and Growth Through Therapy (33:05-36:56; 39:14-41:39)

  • The journey from oversharing online to recognizing the necessity of boundaries.
  • The importance—and slow pace—of growth: “Change is always happening, even if you don’t see it immediately.” (41:39)
  • Both guests celebrate the slow emergence of self-kindness and the ability to counter the negative internal voice.

• Making Room for Comfort and Change (52:22-56:18)

  • Learning to accept healthy, uncomfortable love and to push back against self-sabotage and the pull toward chaos.
  • Tracy: “I have a positive voice in my brain now… I’m sticking with things, I’m working with things.” (52:47)

• Letting Go of the Shame Spiral (56:26-59:24)

  • Crissle offers practical advice for breaking out of self-recrimination and cyclical negative self-talk: “But when you keep kicking yourself, you can never get up. And it sounds like you never get a break from you.” (57:05-57:11)

The Evolution of Podcasting

• From Audio to Video: Resisting the “Visual Podcast” Trend (60:35-65:13)

  • Tracy and Crissle air their grievances about the new industry expectation that shows be on video.
  • Tracy: “Literally got into podcasting cause you could not see me, girl.” (60:41)
  • Compensation, increased labor, and lack of support for Black women in media are unearthed and critiqued.

• Podcasting Then vs. Now (65:13-70:29)

  • Reflecting on the earlier days of podcasting (lack of resources, expectations), and the competitive, “content creator” culture now.

• On Passion, Purpose, and Metrics of Success (73:22-77:26)

  • Crissle shares that her measure of success is not ratings, but purpose: “If I feel good about the show, I feel like it’s serving its intended purpose. I don’t really care about it being big.” (74:48)
  • Both agree the joy is in making something meaningful and having real impact—not chasing analytics.

Embracing Multiple Paths & Future Hopes

• Refusing the Grind for Its Own Sake (78:49-81:36)
  • Tracy on rethinking her relationship with media, social platforms, and the need to return to what brings joy (reading, writing, learning).
  • Discussion of postgraduate trajectories, learning for enrichment (not just career), and carving out purpose within and beyond capitalism.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Romanticizing New York:

“Part of me even misses those parts of New York City because… I can't describe the backdrop of my time here without mentioning the dirt and the filth and the rats.”
— Tracy Clayton, (01:36)

On Internalized Perfectionism:

“Wouldn’t it be incredible if I could [fix your life in 30 minutes]? But what I see very, very frequently in Black women is a tendency to hold themselves to a superhuman standard.”
— Crissle, (28:48)

On Grace and Self-Compassion:

“I'm allowed to be just as raggedy as the average white man…I'm allowed to make mistakes. I’m just a human being like the rest of y’all.”
— Crissle, (32:12-32:26)

On Therapy with a Black Woman:

“I will never have a therapist who is not a Black woman again, ever, ever. Like, it’s just… the conversation becomes life changing.”
— Tracy, (21:48-22:08)

On the Difficulty of Growth:

“I want you to leave [shame]. I’ve got these bags. I don’t want them anymore. I want to toss them over a bridge. But I wake up and they’re back somehow.”
— Tracy, (28:11-28:48)

On Social Media and Being Perceived:

“I had to learn how to be perceived. Girl, I’m so tired of being perceived. Can we talk about this real quick?”
— Tracy, (20:30)

On Being Seen and Creating Purpose:

“If I feel good about the show, I feel like… it’s serving its intended purpose. I don’t really care about it being big… That’s not the point of this.”
— Crissle, (74:48)

On the Challenge of Podcasting Consistency:

“The consistency is so much of what’s challenging about having a long running show.”
— Crissle, (67:22)

Hilarious Animal Fact Finale:

“There is an animal called a tenrec… They have the most nipples of any mammal. They can have up to 18 pairs of nipples. 36 nipples.”
— Tracy, (84:45-85:03)

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Timestamps for Standout Segments

• Reflecting on Early Black Podcasting & New York Nostalgia: 00:02–04:45
• Discussing Louisville, Gentrification & Systemic Neglect: 04:45–09:24
• Therapy, Black Community, and Shame: 20:30–32:34
• Fighting Perfectionism & Learning to Give Grace: 28:48–33:49
• Podcasting Industry Changes: Audio vs. Video Rant: 60:35–65:13
• Industry Burnout, Indie vs. Corporate Podcasting: 65:13–70:29
• Defining Success by Fulfillment, Not Numbers: 73:22–77:26
• Joy, Neuroplasticity, and Hope for the Future: 81:28–82:54
• Hilarious Animal Fact (Tenrec’s 36 Nipples): 84:31–85:07

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Tone & Takeaways

Crissle and Tracy are raw, wise, and deeply funny—balancing hard truths and vulnerable admissions with good-natured teasing and mutual affirmation. Listeners are left with a sense of solidarity, possibility, and self-forgiveness, along with plenty of practical reflections on both life and career. Their honest discussion of Black womanhood, therapy, the joys and burdens of public life, and the imperatives of self-acceptance is both moving and galvanizing.

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Transcript

[Crystal]

Hi and welcome to Crystal's Couch, the show where I answer your questions for advice, and talk to the most interesting people in the world today. I am so honored because we are sitting down with someone whose voice has shaped the way that so many of us think, laugh, and feel. She's an award winning podcaster, producer, writer, and humorist from the west end of Louisville, Kentucky. Get it right. You know her from another round. Strong black legends and back issues. And behind the as an executive producer of Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus. She is brilliant. She is layered. She loves snacks, birds, animals, and her mama. Please welcome the one and only Tracee Clayton to the couch. Hi. You make me sound great. I love you. You literally are like, I. So I just, you know, it felt like the reed. Another round, Bodega boys. You know, we just were kind of all around in that song. Sort of like a decade ago when podcasting was kind of new to black people.

[Tracee Clayton]

It was the Wild West.

[Crystal]

It wasn't it? And we just had such a time. Like, I remember coming on another round and just, you know, you in heaven, just everything to me, and I've just adored you for so long. So when I found out you were gonna be in New York, I was like, please get my girl on the show. But you left us. Yeah. You went back to Kentucky.

[Tracee Clayton]

I did.

[Crystal]

Do you miss it? Cause it is filthy.

[Tracee Clayton]

Oh, my God, it is.

[Crystal]

It's filthy and gross and cold.

[Tracee Clayton]

It's filthy nasty. Like, I was like, okay, so the rats are still here.

[Crystal]

Check. Yeah, they have not left.

[Tracee Clayton]

The big black mounds of snow are still here. Check. But what is, like, kind of. I don't know what the word is. I don't know what the word is for it, but, like, part of me even misses those parts of New York City because it was just such a. I can't, like, describe the backdrop of my time here without mentioning the dirt and the filth and the rats. You know what I mean? And, like, I find myself at home, like, people being like, well, what's New York like? You know, like, did you have rats? And I'm like, yeah, we have rats. And I'm just like. But don't get it twisted, though. Like, we were, like, clean. It's just like the way that the city is because of all of the, you know.

[Crystal]

Exactly, exactly.

[Tracee Clayton]

Like, it's normal. It's normal, you know?

[Crystal]

Right.

[Tracee Clayton]

I miss it with all my heart. I lived in Flatbush while I was here. I will not be going to Flatbush. Like, this is my first Time back in Brooklyn since I left.

[Crystal]

Okay. There's a lot more white people in Flatbush now, girl. And I mean, that's kind of why

[Tracee Clayton]

I don't want to see it.

[Crystal]

Yeah, it's weird.

[Tracee Clayton]

It was on the precipice of the gentrification.

[Crystal]

It's there now. And Best Eye. Have you been to Best Eye?

[Tracee Clayton]

Bed Stuy has fallen. We lost Bed Stuy.

[Crystal]

I said the whites have taken. Almost youthful slurp. They have taken off of my car quickly. Quickly.

[Tracee Clayton]

And, like, I don't want to see what Flatbush has become. And I also don't want to see, like, I don't know. I don't wanna feel too much of my own feelings. Right. Because, like, I miss it so much.

[Crystal]

Right.

[Tracee Clayton]

And I'm scared that I'm gonna go back and be like, I don't wanna go back.

[Crystal]

I can't. I can't.

[Tracee Clayton]

I'm just gonna live here under this

[Crystal]

bridge until I figure it out, you know? Figure it out. Right.

[Tracee Clayton]

Until I figure it out. But I miss it with all my heart. But I am very conscious of the fact that I am romanticizing this. You are, girl.

[Crystal]

You are. Cause you go over here talking about the rats like, right. I miss Ben so much. I hope he' Michael Jackson did. Yes.

[Tracee Clayton]

The two of us need look no more.

[Crystal]

You are romanticizing it. The city is hard. It beats you. I mean, girl, you left for a reason, and I do not blame you.

[Tracee Clayton]

Is the thing I did well, the biggest reason that I left is I ran out of rent money. Yeah.

[Crystal]

Which that's the biggest reason most of us leave.

[Tracee Clayton]

Indicative of, like, the changes that Covid.

[Crystal]

Like, oh, God.

[Tracee Clayton]

That shapes my entire experience along with everybody else's, you know, like. But the time that I miss is the pre. Covid time. And my brain is not up to date with that. Like, you don't miss New York. You miss this very specific era of New York when you were here and you had access to this and that, and you're working for this big media cult, and it's fun. And you didn't know that it was a cult yet. And so it was great. Like, that's the specific thing that I missed. Right. So it's kind of a struggle to stay realistic.

[Crystal]

Yep.

[Tracee Clayton]

Because being back in Louisville is hard. It is hard. Like I was saying, it's like dating an ex again. And, like, I'm realizing why we broke up.

[Crystal]

That's why we don't spend the block.

[Tracee Clayton]

That's why we don't spend the block. But here I Am. But you spend block.

[Crystal]

Yeah. Cause I mean, spinning like a top. Because Louisville has things that New York does not have, for sure. A much more affordable way of living. And your family and other very close loved ones also. That and your baby cruise. And my baby cruisey. So, you know, it has its. It's positive.

[Tracee Clayton]

Always perks. Always the opposite of perks. Un. Perks. I don't know.

[Crystal]

Right.

[Tracee Clayton]

But, yeah, I feel like I'm. I don't know. I'm always a woman in transition. I'm always trying to meet the new woman that I constantly become. I just be like, can I just stay in this stage for, like, five more years before I have to, like, learn the whole new language of myself? Right.

[Crystal]

Yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

And so now I'm trying to figure out, like, what's next? Where do I want to put roots down? Cause I don't. I don't know that it's Louisville anymore, really. Yeah. It's just. And a lot of that change and, like, my feeling towards it and our relationship to each other is because, one, I'm a new person. Like, I'm not the same person I was when I left it 10 years ago.

[Crystal]

Right.

[Tracee Clayton]

The city's not the same city it was back then.

[Crystal]

It is not girl.

[Tracee Clayton]

And the whole Breonna Taylor thing.

[Crystal]

Oh, God.

[Tracee Clayton]

Really took a chunk out of my soul and my spirit. Heartbroken. Yeah. And, like, I can't reconcile it. Like, I'm just, like, my city doesn't like me. My sister doesn't love me, and I barely felt like it did in the first place. Right. Because it's so. So segregated. And the reason that I say, like, in my bios I'm from the west end of Louisville is I'm just like. I specifically want people to know that the West End exists because in the city, it's just, like, this foreign land that people seem to be, like, afraid of. It's just. It's just black people.

[Crystal]

Yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

That's all. It's just black folk trying to do our best in a city that does not see us, doesn't hear us, doesn't. My mother has been trying to get a new garbage can because the squirrels and. Look, I'm not gonna go off on squirrels, all right?

[Crystal]

I know how you feel. Don't love squirrel. I know how you feel.

[Tracee Clayton]

That's all we need to know. But they have eaten through my mother's industrial plastic garbage can.

[Crystal]

Not the city garbage can.

[Tracee Clayton]

The city garbage can.

[Crystal]

Oh, my God.

[Tracee Clayton]

And I'm like, no, they have weapons now. Because, like, how can A squirrel. You not just gonna chew through some stuff like that. Like, they. It is a smorgasbord for them. Right? Okay. So they get in the garbage can, then they leave and ch. Chicken bones and stuff everywhere. Then the dog goes out and he eats him. He comes in, he throws up. And now I'm all panicked, like, oh, Lord, my baby's getting ready to go to. It's a lot. Moral of the story is they will not just give us another garbage can. They want us to pay$50.50, girl.

[Crystal]

For a government trash can, Girl.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yes.

[Crystal]

I feel like y' all got it. Go on and give me a trash can.

[Tracee Clayton]

You know, Exactly.

[Crystal]

It's y' all squirrels that ate through it.

[Tracee Clayton]

I'm trying to tell you, these are

[Crystal]

not my pet squirrels that get the garbage. Exactly.

[Tracee Clayton]

Either come get the squirrels.

[Crystal]

Right.

[Tracee Clayton]

Or give us a new garbage can and stop playing. But, like, the feeling like even in a situation like that is just like, y' all really don't care. Yeah, you just don't care. And then the thing that I really, really hate when I was growing up, I would always hear adults and people who do not live in the West End, who don't live in the hood, be like, why won't they just throw their trash away? If there's trash everywhere, why won't they throw it away? And my answer is, look around. And how many trash cans do you count?

[Crystal]

Yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

None.

[Crystal]

Right.

[Tracee Clayton]

Where are we supposed to put our trash? Nobody asks about that. It's just our fault. We're just mean. We're just nasty and gross and. No, we're unsupported. We're unseen.

[Crystal]

Yes.

[Tracee Clayton]

And I just. Especially after being in Brooklyn, like, I can't go back. It's hard to go back to that. Similar, like, as I also cannot go back to a 9 to 5 now. Like, there are just, like, parts of me that do not exist anymore, you know? And it's hard to reconcile because, like, this is home. And if that's not home anymore, then where is home? Kind of like I need an anchor. I need something. And I don't know. Sometimes I just feel like I'm just in limbo. Like, as Forrest Gump said, floating around all accidental, like, on the breeze. That is my favorite movie. Judge me as you will.

[Crystal]

No, I will not.

[Tracee Clayton]

Thank you.

[Crystal]

It's a great movie, but it's such a good movie. So many great lines in that movie. Beautiful lessons. Yeah, my love. One of his best performances.

[Tracee Clayton]

Truly.

[Crystal]

Absolutely.

[Tracee Clayton]

Absolutely.

[Crystal]

So I mean, you so much of what you say. I relate To. I'm from the north side of Tulsa. Mm. It's the hood. Always has been. Although white people are starting to gentrify it because it's so close to downtown. And so it's like, oh, come in here and buy up your property. Right. So there's a little bit of that, but definitely as far as, like, that part of the city being neglected and people saying, well, why don't they do this? Why don't they do that? Y' all have everything you need? The trash collection comes on time. On time. You don't have the rats or whatever that we have coming through, chewing through garbage and spreading chicken bones everywhere for

[Tracee Clayton]

the dog situation, poisoning your babies.

[Crystal]

Right. So it's like, not too much on the north side.

[Tracee Clayton]

Exactly.

[Crystal]

Not too much on the north side.

[Tracee Clayton]

We are doing what we can with what we got. And it's really all you can do,

[Crystal]

literally that, you know. Yes. But I also understand because I've been in New York all this time, even though the price of everything is. If you knew what an apartment in Flatbush costs right now, you would be like, let me stay home. Actually, let me stay home.

[Tracee Clayton]

I mean, when I was on my way out, it was near $3,000. My rent.

[Crystal]

Okay.

[Tracee Clayton]

And of course, I'm living by myself. Cause I can't do roommates.

[Crystal]

I'm sorry.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah. And I was like, you support my lifesty.

[Crystal]

I actually would rather leave than get a roommate. Yeah. Literally, what I did, my mom was

[Tracee Clayton]

like, well, can you room with somebody? I was like, no.

[Crystal]

I mean, technically, legally, like, I could,

[Tracee Clayton]

but why wouldn't I?

[Crystal]

Why? No. Yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah.

[Crystal]

I don't think so, actually. No. Thank you. No, thank you. But. So. Okay, so. But you were saying?

[Tracee Clayton]

I have no idea what I was saying. This is gonna happen a lot.

[Crystal]

Tracy, you are so delighted. I truly miss you. Like, I miss you too.

[Tracee Clayton]

You.

[Crystal]

You are just the best. And you always have been so sweet. But I was saying that, you know, New York being so expensive and this concept of, like, where is home if it's not here or there? Like, where do I feel like I really fit in? I'm starting to think more long term, because I do have my baby now.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yes.

[Crystal]

And so it's like, where am I gonna raise her? What do the schools look like?

[Tracee Clayton]

What is the environment?

[Crystal]

Right. You know, what's. What's best for my child. And it is very much this idea of, like, am I thinking about buying in New York? No.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah.

[Crystal]

But where would I go if not New York?

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah, where would you go if not New York.

[Crystal]

No, seriously, that's a very good question. I'm like, maybe D.C. because I need. This is.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yes.

[Crystal]

One of my requirements used to be a mild to moderate climate. I had to give that up because I also need it to be blue city and blue state.

[Tracee Clayton]

That part.

[Crystal]

And I need a strong population of Negroes. And you're not gonna get that in warm weather.

[Tracee Clayton]

You know what?

[Crystal]

Unless you go to la.

[Tracee Clayton]

Right. And.

[Crystal]

Ugh. And la.

[Tracee Clayton]

Nobody likes la. I like la, Shout out to la,

[Crystal]

But I like it. But I think New York feels so much more like a community and I think that's because of the train.

[Tracee Clayton]

I really do. I really do too. And also just like the proximity of people to each other.

[Crystal]

Right. We are all on top of each other.

[Tracee Clayton]

You have no place for your community in some kind of way. You know, somebody's running for the train and to open it. That's community. Right There it is.

[Crystal]

Right.

[Tracee Clayton]

I think you're right. I think my aversion to Louisville is it's a car based. One of my versions to Louisville is that it's a car based city.

[Crystal]

Yes. And I don't want to go back to that life.

[Tracee Clayton]

Oh my gosh.

[Crystal]

I need a city where I don't have to drive.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yes. Yes. The first time I left Louisville, I was like. Like when I was applying to graduate schools, I was like, is there a train? Is there a trolley? Is there a something? Because, like, I just don't like to drive. Like, my anxiety is really, really bad. Like, I can drive. I have my license.

[Crystal]

Yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

But like, Now I'm. I'm 43 and I have a raging case of ADHD and I'm just like, I can see myself just on the road zoning out and then I'm on the train tracks. Like, and that's what the anxiety does. Right. So that's why I would prefer not to drive. But also, like, it's so cool. What do you mean you have to get in the car to go find a coffee shop.

[Crystal]

I don't wanna do that.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah.

[Crystal]

I should be able to walk outside. Literally walk. And there should be something within a few blocks.

[Tracee Clayton]

Exactly.

[Crystal]

Of where I live.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yes. I miss that so, so much about.

[Crystal]

About this city. Yes.

[Tracee Clayton]

I can go outside, take a walk around the block. I come back with some weed, with a sandwich, with something from the beauty supply store.

[Crystal]

Absolutely.

[Tracee Clayton]

You can, you know, a fancy cocktail if I want one. My favorite thing to do was to just like leave my apartment and pick a direction and just walk and see what I want. Oh.

[Crystal]

When the Weather is good. Mm, baby.

[Tracee Clayton]

Nothing like summer in Brooklyn. There's nothing like it.

[Crystal]

I once walked from 137th in Lenox in Harlem down to Chinatown.

[Tracee Clayton]

Uh huh.

[Crystal]

Just the weather was good just because the weather was bad. And that's the sort of thing I got. I mean, I got high as hell.

[Tracee Clayton]

As you should have.

[Crystal]

Cause what I mean, you know, why else you gotta do something? But I was like, let's get high and just walk until we don't wanna walk no more. And I had such a time. And that is the sort of thing you can do in New York, that is you really cannot do anywhere else.

[Tracee Clayton]

You really cannot.

[Crystal]

So as much as I love la, I'm not really thinking of it long term because everybody's so far apart and you have to drive every fucking way. And their traffic is horrendous.

[Tracee Clayton]

I mean, awful. Also, I feel every other day is a water shortage and like a fire and like an earthquake and like, you know, like we're used to tornadoes. Right?

[Crystal]

Right.

[Tracee Clayton]

Being in Tornado Alley and everything, very scary. I don't want to have to worry about seven, eight, nine natural disasters.

[Crystal]

Like, yeah, earthquake situation. The way y' all be feeling it. Right. Thank you, girl.

[Tracee Clayton]

I'm good. I am good.

[Crystal]

I actually don't think that life is for me.

[Tracee Clayton]

I'm just like, why aren't y' all more scared? The actual urgent is moving.

[Crystal]

Yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

Like the walls that these humans feel,

[Crystal]

like you feel it like your things are shaking in your home, girl.

[Tracee Clayton]

Fall off the. Mm, mm. I can't, I can't. Tornado go in the basement and you pray and that's that. But stuff like falling from the walls, I don't know. But also with la, if. Is this a safe space?

[Crystal]

Yes, it is.

[Tracee Clayton]

Okay.

[Crystal]

I mean, it's on, it's the Internet, but it's safe. Ish.

[Tracee Clayton]

Touche. Good point.

[Crystal]

Right.

[Tracee Clayton]

I feel like there's something about like LA culture that just kind of puts me off. Like I feel like nobody is from la. Now, granted, I should say I am biased because my time in LA is largely in like Hollywood, West Hollywood, which I know is not.

[Crystal]

Like those people are not from la.

[Tracee Clayton]

Those people are not from la.

[Crystal]

You know what?

[Tracee Clayton]

I just solved my own problem. That's it. Never mind. La, we good. We all right.

[Crystal]

Right. I know a few people who are from LA and it's very much like, please do not come here and go to WeHo and then talk about how everybody feels. You know, what received.

[Tracee Clayton]

I receive it. I do receive it.

[Crystal]

They're like, girl, you're downtown.

[Tracee Clayton]

What do you expect?

[Crystal]

What did you think you was gonna run into? Right, right, true. But I do see what you mean, like, as far as the culture goes, maybe not necessarily that everybody's a transplant, but it's just different.

[Tracee Clayton]

It's just different.

[Crystal]

It's different from New York. And it's not that I don't like it, it's just that I don't know that I wanna live there permanently. New York is so expensive.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yes.

[Crystal]

And I'm like, well, if I move into Jersey, I might as well go somewhere else for real. Like, I'm not.

[Tracee Clayton]

I saw that.

[Crystal]

If I can't be in the almost at 5 boroughs, but fucks that, I don't disagree. If I can't be in the Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens or Manhattan, I'm leaving.

[Tracee Clayton]

Leaving. Because then you're in another place anyway, so I feel you.

[Crystal]

So I really do get that. And hopefully the both of us can find out the answer to this question.

[Tracee Clayton]

Chris, I am excited to hear where we end up. So.

[Crystal]

Right. I'm excited to see where the both of us end up going. Right. So do you remember Twitter? This app that was around like 15 years ago?

[Tracee Clayton]

Twitter. Twitter.

[Crystal]

There was a bird involved, I think.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yes.

[Crystal]

I don't know what they're doing over there now.

[Tracee Clayton]

No idea.

[Crystal]

But Twitter, a million years ago was just this absolutely crazy place. And it feels like it played this really big role in shaping so many people's. Not just voices, but career trajectories. Like, I feel like a lot of people got real life looks and opportunities based off of that. Do you think Twitter, like, what kind of role do you think Twitter played as far as, like, you transitioning into this very illustrious, respected podcasting career that you have. Because I was saying before we started recording, you have had your hand in the hats in ways that I have not yet. And you have worked with. With the big dogs.

[Tracee Clayton]

Okay.

[Crystal]

Like, I definitely feel like I do not share that experience. So do you think Twitter unlocked a space for you creatively or made you braver as a writer? I know you were with. I don't know if we could say the name of that giant media company you used to work for.

[Tracee Clayton]

Legally. I don't know if we can say it. Okay, so let's say that I worked for a media conglomerate.

[Crystal]

You did. You did a very big one. And you were like the black girl, where it was like, every time that media conglomerate did something stupid, I was like, okay. But Tracy worked there, Quinta worked there. So, like, how bad can it be?

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Crystal]

Do you think Twitter had any influence?

[Tracee Clayton]

1,000%.

[Crystal]

Yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

There's a strong chance that had Twitter not existed, I never would have left Louisville. I would have two to three babies by now, possibly resentful of everything. Because what I have learned about myself is that I am not the mothering type. Right. I don't have kids. I don't have kids on purpose, but I talk in my language.

[Crystal]

It's deliberate.

[Tracee Clayton]

We did a very good thing for our potential future kids.

[Crystal]

We did.

[Tracee Clayton]

Like, when you can identify that, like, I love kids, but this is not for me.

[Crystal]

Exactly.

[Tracee Clayton]

That save kids so much trouble. Stress, trauma, same. We've done good.

[Crystal]

We have.

[Tracee Clayton]

We have done well.

[Crystal]

Yes.

[Tracee Clayton]

But I might have two or three if it hadn't been for Twitter, because, like, Twitter is where I got discovered by said media conglomerate. And at the time, like, I was. So my dream, my number one dream has always been to write. Right? Like, I knew what a podcast was, but I was like, it's where white men talk about cars and money. That's all I do is American life and car talk. Yep. My mama loves car talk. I'm like, what are you?

[Crystal]

How do you. Car talk is actually pretty good. Is it? Well, I mean, I haven't listened to it in probably 20 years, but it wasn't bad. It might not, but I remember hearing a couple episodes like, this is not for me, but I see why people tune into it. I see, I see. So your mama liking was this American Life for me, where I was like, all right, Hourglass.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah. Like, highly reported. Very. Just like, white male, white male, white male. Like, that's it. So I had no designs on going into media, doing anything where I was seen, like, or heard out loud. Because, like, growing up, like, so shy and, like, that's why I gravitated towards writing, because I was like, okay, I can say words on paper, you know? Like, trying to say them out loud was just, like, too much. Like, people gotta look at me and see me. Like, I wasn't ready for all that. So when Twitter happened and I began becoming seen and heard, I don't know that I knew what to make of it, really, because I'm still just, like, I'm just online talking to my friends, right? Like, when I first started Twitter, my account was locked. I only follow people that I knew, really. You know what I mean? So it was just, like, a very insular thing. And then the followers started to grow, and I was like, people can see me. And I had to learn how to be seen. I had to learn how to be perceived. Girl, I'm so tired of being perceived. Can we talk about this real quick?

[Crystal]

First of all, it sounds like the therapy has been therapying.

[Tracee Clayton]

Oh, it has. It has. Shout out to Sharonda. She's keeping me together. Shout out to Ronnie. I miss you. Yes, absolutely. And that's another gift that I got from Brooklyn. Like, the first time I got depressed was in Brooklyn. It was after I got laid off with all of my friends and I found a black woman therapist. And that was the first time I had a black woman therapist. I had therapists before. Some were awful, Some was just like a one and done. Like, absolutely not. First date, you're out, you're blocked. But I found the Perfect therapist and Dr. Romney and just talk about being seen and being heard. Like, it was different. I showed up to a session and I was. I'm depressed. So I'm in the bed and, like, I didn't have time to, like, get up and shower and stuff. So I'm just. I got the crust in my eye. I got my bonnet on. I'm just like, I'm so sorry for the bonnet. And she was like, it's okay. I wear one too. Tears, Tears. And I'm just like, I never knew that, like, something like this could impact me that much. But just, like, being able to let my shoulders down and just be without having to worry about explaining to this white lady therapist, well, you know, this is. A bonnet is something that black women wear.

[Crystal]

Yeah, it's a sleep hat.

[Tracee Clayton]

Oh, man. But like that, I will never have a therapist who is not a black woman again, ever, ever. Like, it's just. And I encourage everyone, first of all, first of all, find a therapist. Second of all, if you can find a therapist that looks like you and walks in your, like, shoes.

[Crystal]

Yes.

[Tracee Clayton]

Oh, my gosh.

[Crystal]

It really can make a huge difference. And you know, in New York City, there are thousands. Like, it's just so easy. But sometimes people in other places, which I'm glad it sounds like you have one in Louisville, so I'm glad for that.

[Tracee Clayton]

The Lord was looking at.

[Crystal]

But Louisville's a pretty big city. A lot of people are in, like, small towns, lots of suburbs. Right. And you really can't find that black woman. You'd be lucky to find anybody, really. So sincerely, it's like, get a therapist. But absolutely. When your therapist shares so many of your same background traits, stuff like that, they can understand.

[Tracee Clayton]

When you speak the same language, the conversation becomes life changing. Yes, it really, really does.

[Crystal]

So the fear of being perceived Was that, like, a big one?

[Tracee Clayton]

It was. And I don't think I had the language for it then. And, like, I'm sure that, like, the kids today, growing up on the Internet, you know, like, a big number of followers is good. It's a big thing. But I was kind of like, you know, who are y'? All?

[Crystal]

You know, and where did you come from?

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah. Like, am I. Why are you here? Safe?

[Crystal]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

And it was. It was difficult, but I was. I was just sort of kind of dazzled by it. I think, like, in my oversharing years, of which there were many.

[Crystal]

Oh, yeah. Same. Shout out to therapy. It was.

[Tracee Clayton]

Listen.

[Crystal]

Cause why am I telling y' all this? Why am I telling y' all this?

[Tracee Clayton]

Exactly. Exactly. And then, like, when I don't. Okay, okay. I'm getting ahead of myself. Okay, okay. So it was fun. But I later learned that people on the Internet are strangers, right? Yeah. Strangers are not beholden to give you grace. They are not required to be kind. They are. You may not even be, like, a human person to them. And then even the people that really bond with you, like, oh, I feel like you're a friend in my head, they are friends with a version of you that they have based on what you put out onto the Internet.

[Crystal]

Right, Exactly.

[Tracee Clayton]

So I feel like a lot of times when we're oversharing and oversharing, the fun stuff is fun and the funny stuff is funny. But if maybe we have an idea that is just bad because of ignorance, maybe you just didn't know better. Right. Or if you're sad and people don't understand why you're sad. And here comes the unsolicited advice, which I want to claw out the eyeballs of everybody who has ever given me advice that I have not asked for,

[Crystal]

did not ask for. And so many of them genuinely think they're being helpful.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Crystal]

And so it's like, I don't want to cut you out because I know your intentions are good, but I didn't ask for this, and it's different.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah, yeah. And so, like, those kind of concessions, right? Like, wanting the people that we vent to to just, like, let us vent, you know, like, they. They don't owe us that, you know? Whereas people that, you know in real life, go ahead, girl. Just, like, let it out. You know what I mean?

[Crystal]

Because you have a real relationship with those people.

[Tracee Clayton]

You have a real relationship. They have an investment in you that they want to protect. And, you know, they can give you that grace. They can give you that you know, like, hey, maybe. Maybe not this girl, but it's okay, you know? And I really had to learn to just like you. I can't filet my soul open anymore. And I think that my willingness to do that actually was, like, the engine that propelled me both on Twitter and to BuzzFeed. And, like, you know, I got up there and it was like, yeah, this is fun. This is good. But then now I'm depressed, and now I'm just live tweeting anxiety attacks.

[Crystal]

Ooh. Yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

And it just came to the point where I was like, I have to stop. I have to get off of the Internet. And then that's where therapy came in. And now I know that sometimes it's okay to just put stuff in the group chat. Yeah. And not onto the timeline.

[Crystal]

Yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

Like, that's fine.

[Crystal]

That's allowed.

[Tracee Clayton]

And that is healthy.

[Crystal]

Yeah. I was gonna say almost always a better idea.

[Tracee Clayton]

I would wager that. Yes, yes.

[Crystal]

But I also think, you know, sometimes we can look back at moments like that and feel shame. Like, oh, God.

[Tracee Clayton]

Oh, my God. Can we talk about shame?

[Crystal]

Well, let's talk about it, because shame

[Tracee Clayton]

is beating my behind. Can we cuss here?

[Crystal]

You can do. You can say whatever you want.

[Tracee Clayton]

Beating my ass. Yeah, it is. And a lot of it is connected to Twitter and, like, those. Cause I was on Twitter since now or before. I'm carrying, like, the bag ladiest of Bag ladies is in front of you right now. Like, so something that growing and healing has done for me is it's given me a clearer picture of, like, who I was then. And, like, I'm 19. It's a lot of shit. I don't know, girl. You know, I said a whole lot of dumb shit. A whole lot of dudes, you know? And I don't know what it is about me. Probably something in the relationship with myself, but I have such a hard time, like, forgiving myself for not knowing things or for being feeling embarrassed. Like, when I got laid off, like, I just felt so stupid. I felt so embarrassed. Yes. See, like, I see the look of

[Crystal]

confusion on your face because layoffs are completely outside of your control. So blaming yourself for that is indicative of something deeper.

[Tracee Clayton]

Exactly. Exactly. And that's what I'm working on now is trying to, like, figure out what that is. But it's so hard for me to give myself grace in that moment. And there's something about knowing that, like, everybody was watching that just, like, makes me feel mortified. Right. And even though I know and I understand, it's out of My control also. This is capitalism. This is just how this system works, 100%. It's supposed to emotionally abuse you while you're in their offices.

[Crystal]

Correct.

[Tracee Clayton]

They're supposed to throw you away when you don't make them money anymore. You know, like, even knowing that, I'm just so stuck on. But I wish I could have made different decisions. I wish I could have done this differently. And then I get mad at myself for knowing better but still feeling the way that I feel. Right.

[Crystal]

So you can't win.

[Tracee Clayton]

I can't win. And I be. I'm just like. I'm in therapy. I'm trying to do well, you know, like, I'm doing the homework, and I'm just. I still just feel so stuck. And there's something about, like, shame in particular that is just keeping me so stuck. And I'm like, I don't know how to make this motherfucker go away. Like, leave me alone. I want you to leave. I've got these bags. I don't want them anymore. I wanna toss them over a bridge. But I wake up and they're back somehow. And I don't know why. I don't know. I don't know. Well, can you fix my life in 30 minutes, please?

[Crystal]

Wouldn't it be incredible if I could? But what I see very, very frequently in black women is a tendency to hold themselves to a superhuman standard. And it sounds like you are expecting things from yourself that are not human. Well, like, who told you you had to be this perfect person who never made mistakes or never did anything she regretted or never messed up or stumbled? Like, why do you have to be held to that standard when nobody else does?

[Tracee Clayton]

Where did I learn that? Yeah, I feel like. Cause I'm thinking about it as you're talking, and I think that that was inadvertently modeled for me by the amazing black women who raised me. Cause I never saw them struggle. I never. I also never saw them put themselves first in a way that I have learned how to do. Yeah. Well, yes. Because whenever anybody needed anything, anything didn't matter if Grandma was tired. She had the money. Bring that baby over here. Literally, here's $5. You know, like, I don't have it, but I got a little bit. You know what I mean? And I think. I think that's where it's from.

[Crystal]

Yeah. For me, it was the same. It was definitely seeing the women around me just automatically sacrificing. Absolutely. Like, when I tell you strangers could pop up at our door and my mother would go cook something, that part like, grandmother was the same part. Always, immediately, if people need to spend the night, oh, yeah, kick them kids. Them kids can go sleep in the dinner.

[Tracee Clayton]

Which teaches us how to, like, compromise. And, like, you know, my room's not my room anymore, then it's normal. I'm supposed to sacrifice and give of myself even when I do.

[Crystal]

It teaches you that what you want or need is secondary to what other people may want or need.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yes.

[Crystal]

And so much of that for me was also tied up in religion. That's very much a message that is reinforced by church. And so since my community, since I was very sheltered, my community was basically church family and then church friends. Yeah, that's who I saw outside of school. That message just came from every single direction.

[Tracee Clayton]

It's just like it's ping ponging off the walls.

[Crystal]

And so at some point I said, you know, for sure, I have said and done some very heinous things, some really dumb shit, and if I could go back knowing the things I know now, I would not do those things. But also, I'm just a fucking human being.

[Tracee Clayton]

I know that's right.

[Crystal]

And in the grand scheme of things, I have not fucked up enough to change, you know, this world.

[Tracee Clayton]

Right.

[Crystal]

I have not even fucked up enough to ruin my own life. Right.

[Tracee Clayton]

Like, you're still alive and living and thriving.

[Crystal]

Never been to prison. I don't have no kids that I regret. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm like. What is. I'm not Elon, I'm not Trump, I'm not Epstein, I'm not Netanyahu. I'm not Putin, like, beating myself up. Like, I've done some horrible. Like, I've killed another person. Right.

[Tracee Clayton]

I have not killed anybody yet.

[Crystal]

But, see, I've noticed. Love that.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yet. I'm just saying black women really have

[Crystal]

a tendency, and because everybody else also has a tendency to expect more of us, and we get less grace for fucking up, we hold ourselves to those same standards. And it's like, I get to be just as raggedy as the average white man does. Yo, don't expect no more out of me than you expect out of fucking Billie, girl.

[Tracee Clayton]

I'm gonna go find a tattoo shop. When I'm here, I am allowed to be just as raggedy as the average raggedy.

[Crystal]

Yes, I am. And I'm not. But I'm allowed to be. I'm allowed to make mistakes. I'm just a human being like the rest of y'.

[Tracee Clayton]

All.

[Crystal]

I'm not some divine black goddess who's gonna Come save the world. I am just a fucking girl.

[Tracee Clayton]

Wow.

[Crystal]

I am.

[Tracee Clayton]

Is there a collection plate somewhere? I'm looking around. I don't know what I'm looking for. This is like. Like, this is something that I've. Like, I know it, but, like, I'm connecting with that. I am connecting with that idea in this very moment.

[Crystal]

Okay. I love that.

[Tracee Clayton]

But I am a human.

[Crystal]

Yes. Remind me. I'd be forgiven. Yes. I'm literally just a person. What do you want from me, bro? Right.

[Tracee Clayton]

And what do I want from my.

[Crystal]

Yes. It's not possible for me to not fuck up. So we're gonna have to eliminate that as a possibility because it isn't real. And I have had such a perfectionist mindset.

[Tracee Clayton]

Oh, my gosh.

[Crystal]

For most of my. See black women, why are we like this? Because the world puts so much on

[Tracee Clayton]

us, and we internalize that, and we do. And how can you not.

[Crystal]

And then we turn around and we are overachieving, and we are brilliant and we are gorgeous, and we. We are compassionate. And so it's like, well, damn, my homegirls could do it. Why? I'm not doing it.

[Tracee Clayton]

What's wrong with me? Yeah. And then. And now there's this added layer of everybody on social media is happy and perfect and doing it right, which, of course, that is a highlight reel, and that is that.

[Crystal]

It really is.

[Tracee Clayton]

I'm so worried about the next generation. I feel like the number of serial killers is gonna skyrocket.

[Crystal]

Oh, wow.

[Tracee Clayton]

I really, really do. Because, like, there's no. That I. How can you not be a sociopath when you're raised on the Internet and, like, your. Your sense of success is how much attention that you get, you know, no matter what kind. What causes or drives that attention. Like, you just want the clicks. You just want the numbers. How do you learn how to, like, delay gratification? I feel like that's a thing to do.

[Crystal]

Oh, they have no patience. They cannot even sit down for dinner without looking for an iPad or something. It's like.

[Tracee Clayton]

And it's crazy. It's crazy.

[Crystal]

It's chill.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah.

[Crystal]

Chill, bro.

[Tracee Clayton]

This idea that everything should happen instantly. It's gonna be bad.

[Crystal]

Yeah. One thing about growing up in the. In the time before social media was so rampant is that we really had the opportunity to be bored. And you need to learn how to sit with that. Yes. Like, sometimes it's not gonna be nothing to distract you. Sometimes it's not a book for you to read or a show for you to watch or somebody to play. With. And you're just gonna have to sit

[Tracee Clayton]

there and tolerate and sucking. Deal. Yeah. You have to learn how to tolerate uncomfortable situations.

[Crystal]

Right.

[Tracee Clayton]

And now people can't do that. And it's just like, I'm gonna kill everybody. I'm shoot up, everybody.

[Crystal]

Please do not.

[Tracee Clayton]

Please do.

[Crystal]

Please not.

[Tracee Clayton]

But I feel like that's where the kids are going. Well, I hope not.

[Crystal]

I mean, is there some wood I can knock over? Okay, well, to be a serial killer, you have to put that phone down. So that might be what saved them. That's a good point. That is a good. That might be what save them, girl. Cause they are what I see more of. Or what I think maybe is going to be a big issue for them is is this complete inability to let people fuck up.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah.

[Crystal]

They are really tough on each other. And they kind of have this mindset of like, well, if I know it, then you should too. And it's like, baby girl, if you put that phone down.

[Tracee Clayton]

Put some phone.

[Crystal]

Put that phone down and go outside, touch grass and speak to humans face to face.

[Tracee Clayton]

Listen, do you know. So Louisville didn't get as much, but we got a pretty good dump in the snow, which is so crazy, but okay. I mean, in the days, what are you gonna do?

[Crystal]

You're right. But it's burning up. You know, what you gonna do?

[Tracee Clayton]

I don't know, but, like, I saw, like, no snowmen. Like, the kids did not go outside to play.

[Crystal]

Wow.

[Tracee Clayton]

My nephew in the house, watching YouTube on the TV and his phone at the same time. And I'm like, do you understand that there is untouched snow and that in the South.

[Crystal]

Look, you would not have been able to get me back in the house.

[Tracee Clayton]

Listen, I remember snow days when. Back in my day, back in the 1900s.

[Crystal]

Yes.

[Tracee Clayton]

But like, I remember this one when we got like 22 inches of snow.

[Crystal]

Wow.

[Tracee Clayton]

I was outside. As soon as I could put on a purse.

[Crystal]

Literally.

[Tracee Clayton]

Literally, my mother had to tell me to come back in. You're gonna. And I'm just like, no, Five more minutes, ten more minutes. And just like, that is gone now. And I'm just like, this can't bode well for us. Someplace.

[Crystal]

Well, we have to deliberately nurture that in children. And so much of it is like, you can't really criticize the kids for always being on their phones. Cause the parents.

[Tracee Clayton]

Because where they get the phones from?

[Crystal]

Who bought you that phone? Who bought you that iPad?

[Tracee Clayton]

Who's keeping the Internet on?

[Crystal]

And we say, look at something so I can be left alone to work. Or whatever else. So it's like, yeah, you going outside, that means I have to go look at you, make sure don't nobody snatch you up. I have to be mindful of, oh, it's three degrees. You gotta come in every hour, you know, like, oh, gosh, that's way more work than you sitting down looking at Blue's Clues or whatever on your tablets.

[Tracee Clayton]

That's very true.

[Crystal]

So some of it is, you know, they are a product of their parents and the adults around them, like we all are. But, you know, I also think things will always even themselves out.

[Tracee Clayton]

I think that's true too.

[Crystal]

It goes so far and it gets so ridiculous. Kind of like America, America's getting more and more ridiculous and we're just starving people and chasing after people for living here. And the wealthy are getting, getting even wealthier. Eventually. Yeah, it just will.

[Tracee Clayton]

The pendulum will go the other way. It has to. It has to. And that's what I'm trying to remind myself more in this, like, stage of life, right? Because I've lived long enough now to have some empirical evidence that nothing ever stays the same.

[Crystal]

It does not.

[Tracee Clayton]

And there are also, like, as I'm sitting here thinking about like the parents that I know, they are keeping their kids off of screens, you know, like, they are like, I've got a friend who watches Mr. Rogers with her two year old every night and I'm like, the kids might be okay. Mr. Rogers, Mr. Rogers.

[Crystal]

So I guess you can stream it.

[Tracee Clayton]

I assume so.

[Crystal]

PBS or something. I don't even know where is that. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

But like, that's so sweet.

[Crystal]

Yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

There were. And speaking of Mr. Rogers, is that, quote, there's always somebody who is helping instructions. Look for the helpers, look for the helpers. And that's kind of like what I'm trying to train myself now in this stage of my life, right. Is to pull myself from the gloom and doom where I feel the most comfortable, unfortunately.

[Crystal]

Girl.

[Tracee Clayton]

And just like, remember that like, if bad exists, so does good, you know, I feel like I'm getting there.

[Crystal]

Yeah. It can be hard to remember, especially if you watch the news. It can be hard to remember that there is good in this world.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah. Yes. If you exist. It's tough to remember. But can I tell you something exciting? Of course. I am starting to see changes in myself that like I started working on like five, six, seven years ago. And it's so exciting.

[Crystal]

Crystal.

[Tracee Clayton]

It is so exciting. Like I have been working on, I've been keeping a gratitude journal, like off and on for, like, the last seven years. Like, very off and on. But I've been keeping it right. And both of my therapists, you know, they stress the importance of just, like, interrupting, like, the doom laden messages in your head and just, like, reminding yourself of the truth. Right, Right. Like, when I'm like, well, what if I never make it? What if I make this thing and nobody likes it? And then they'll be like, well, what if you do make it? Yeah, what if people do like it?

[Crystal]

Mine does the same thing. I'm like, girl, we're not talking about that. Right? We're not talking about that shit. That won't happen. I live for a second.

[Tracee Clayton]

Can I sit with my toxic delusion for just a minute?

[Crystal]

No. Right? That's not actually helpful. That's why you came here. Exactly.

[Tracee Clayton]

But, like, I spent so much time being so frustrated. Cause I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do his dumb ass gratitude journal, and then I'm gonna close it and I'm gonna go sit down and smoke and cry for another, like, two days. Right?

[Crystal]

Sounds good.

[Tracee Clayton]

But something in me kept returning to the gratitude journal. It kept returning to, like, doing the little homework, little task that my therapist gave me. And I hated it then because I was like, I'm doing it and nothing is happening. Nothing is changing. Yesterday or today feels like yesterday, which felt like the day before and the day before. It's a treadmill. I should just stop. There's no point. I don't know why I didn't stop, but I didn't. And so now, like, I still get in those gloom and doom moves. I'm still like, you know what, girl? Don't nobody remember you, you know, like this. I know it's crazy in here.

[Crystal]

Tracy Clayton.

[Tracee Clayton]

It is crazy, girl.

[Crystal]

Your brain be lying to you.

[Tracee Clayton]

My brain has no idea who. We've never met, I guess, you know, because it gets rough in there. It really does. Yeah. But now I'm able to be like, no, you're just having a tough time today. And I'd be like, who said that? Where did that come from? Like, the existence of another voice in my head to counter the asshole that's usually on the microphone. Like, it. I feel so proud in those moments, and I feel so happy that I did open up that stupid gratitude journal and, like, the reminder that change is always happening, even if you don't see it immediately.

[Crystal]

Yes.

[Tracee Clayton]

Ugh.

[Crystal]

Because what's so frustrating about change and growth is that they do take time.

[Tracee Clayton]

I don't like that shit.

[Crystal]

I don't either. Who has time, mean time? As soon as you say it, my brain shift. I should switch and I should immediately start moving differently.

[Tracee Clayton]

Bam. I am so much like, you know what I hate? Can we relax and get a little real? You know what I hate is when people be like, it's not the destination, it's the journey. It's journey. I wanna.

[Crystal]

Oh, it really is, though. It is.

[Tracee Clayton]

I know.

[Crystal]

And I hate that that's the truth. It is.

[Tracee Clayton]

It makes me so mad because I'm just like, if I.

[Crystal]

If I'm going on vacation, I'm trying

[Tracee Clayton]

to be somewhere with a drink in my head as soon as I leave my house, right? But I just gotta sit on a plane and just like, wait, no. Like, what am I gaining here besides irritation, you know? And that's how I feel, like, all the time. And then I have these moments where I'm just like, God damn, was the destination.

[Crystal]

It was the journey to the destination without the journey.

[Tracee Clayton]

Exactly.

[Crystal]

You literally don't get there.

[Tracee Clayton]

And so that's not fair.

[Crystal]

It is one of the most annoying things about being a human being.

[Tracee Clayton]

It really is.

[Crystal]

It really is.

[Tracee Clayton]

It truly is.

[Crystal]

But it is. You know, I love that you're starting to see some of the work. The seeds that you planted are starting to come to fruition. Cause that really can be so encouraging.

[Tracee Clayton]

Absolutely. Because now I'm like, it gets hard.

[Crystal]

To always feel bad is so hard.

[Tracee Clayton]

It's so tiring. It's so draining. It's exhausting.

[Crystal]

It really is.

[Tracee Clayton]

And like, I have so many ideas all the time. Right. Thankfully, I keep a list of ideas, but I'm just like, to want to do stuff and not be able to. It's maddening. It feels like my bones are just crawling out of my skin. Like, girl, get up. Paint a picture, something. And I'm just like, I'm trying.

[Crystal]

I can't. I can't move.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah, it's hard. It's hard.

[Crystal]

It is. This show, Chrystal's couch has been an idea for years. And it was. Oh, well, you know, not right now. I'm busy. I got so much other stuff to do. Then the pandemic hit. Oh, well, I'm not going outside. I'm not doing nothing. The pandemic, best and worst thing for me, because it was like, I mean, obviously terrible. Millions of people did.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yes.

[Crystal]

I was in New York. Very bad, you know, Horrible, Horrible.

[Tracee Clayton]

New York was a scary ass place to be, baby.

[Crystal]

It was when nothing opened but liquor stores and grocery stores. And we was standing outside six Feet apart from each other to get into the grocery store, right? And then. And I go online, and my family in Texas is doing whatever the hell they want to do.

[Tracee Clayton]

Distress. Not a mask in sight.

[Crystal]

I'm like, we have refrigerated trucks full of dead bodies, and you niggas are partying so terrible.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yes.

[Crystal]

But also, the way everything got canceled and I got to just stay in my house 24 7. It's awful for my mental health, but that was my comfort place. And the thing about comfort places is they feel good. They feel so good in that moment.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah.

[Crystal]

But then there's a part of you deep down that's like, this is actually terrible for me.

[Tracee Clayton]

This is really bad.

[Crystal]

I'm waking up, I'm eating focaccia, and then I'm drinking by 1pm this can't be good. Yep, yep, yep, yep. But I'm comfortable here. So it was like, okay, well, I'm not going nowhere. And then the vaccine came out, and I was like, oh, but I'm in grad school, and da, da, da, da. And then I was like, okay, well, I can't launch a show now. I'm still in school. Maybe after I graduate. And then after I graduated, it was, damn. I am legit out of excuses.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah. Yeah. And, like, you can almost always find a reason not to do something.

[Crystal]

Almost always. And it don't take me much.

[Tracee Clayton]

I will invent color reason, you know, like, oh, the sky's a little too blue today. It just feels like something's off. It's not. I'm a stand.

[Crystal]

I don't want to. The vibes are off.

[Tracee Clayton]

The vibes are off.

[Crystal]

Yeah. And I had some of those same like you were talking about, you know, these anxieties around. Well, what is it gonna look like? Are people gonna like it? Am I gonna like it? Blah, blah. Like, you go through all that and still trying to push your way through. And you mentioned, you know, being a very shy kid, and then you kind of. I don't know if you had the same experience of, like, growing up and realizing I wasn't so much shy as I was anxious as all hell about everything going on.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yes, yes, yes. Born with horrible. Like, I remember my first anxiety attack.

[Crystal]

Really?

[Tracee Clayton]

I was probably about 7 or 8.

[Crystal]

Oh, my.

[Tracee Clayton]

And I used to watch. I grew up in the house with my grandma and my mom, right? So my grandma's shout out to Lucy, Rip, Girl, I miss you. I miss you.

[Crystal]

I love that.

[Tracee Clayton]

And so I'm watching whatever my grandma's watching, right? Oh, yeah. She's watching the news. She's watching Unsolved Mysteries.

[Crystal]

That music, to this day, is still scary.

[Tracee Clayton]

I'm triggered. Yes. Yes. And it's. It was an episode of Unsolved Mysteries about a woman who had gotten in a car crash or something. And my mom's not home. She's at work. And I'm just like, what if she gets in a car crash today? Oh, God. What if she dies? What if she dies? And, like, I just start crying. My grandmother's like. My grandmother calls my mother. Like, I don't know what's wrong with this girl. I can't calm her down. She says she's worried about you. And, like, I cannot breathe. Type crying.

[Crystal]

Oh, wow.

[Tracee Clayton]

And, like, we didn't know anything about, like, generalized anxiety disorder. It's just like, what is wrong with this girl?

[Crystal]

We're not talking about that in the 90s. What you talking about? We not doing that. Exactly. Literally.

[Tracee Clayton]

But, like, I could not do sleepovers. I called my mom to come get me from every sleepover I attempted to go to, which was so embarrassing for me.

[Crystal]

Cause I gotta go to school the

[Tracee Clayton]

next day and be like, oh, hey, friends.

[Crystal]

Hey, girls. Hey. We almost had so much fun. Exactly.

[Tracee Clayton]

Exactly that. So anxiety has always been just like. Like, depression, really bad, not good. But, like, my anxiety has always been like. And the thing that. And to go back to Twitter and social media, I think that it was a balm for my anxiety. Right. Because my anxiety kept me so much inside myself. Unless I'm around family and honestly, around my mom, I could be myself. There's a small number of people that I feel like I could be myself with. And then the Internet comes and no one can see me, I can say something. And if I'm not, like, stuttering and stumbling because I'm typing it out, you know, like, I can edit myself. And nobody sees, like, the flaw in me. Nobody knows that I'm not perfect. And I think that me really just connecting with myself and being myself in that moment online comes from the anxiety that I felt offline. And it was also that authenticity, I think, that got me attention. It got me my job. And then later, I feel like, well, no, that's not true. Okay, I walked that last part back. Okay. But because of people, like, meeting me, like, up front, right? Like, this is Tracy. She really likes animals, and she's really anxious, and she cusses a lot, and she talks about sex at weird times. And, you know, like, you know this about me, and you still want to

[Crystal]

give me a Job. Yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

All right. So I'm able to come into your space and just, like, really, really be my. Which is why I say I cannot go back to a 9 to 5. There are tons of reasons, but, like, I. I don't want to have to put myself back in a jar to do some fucking TPS reports for somebody that I.

[Crystal]

And that's really how it goes.

[Tracee Clayton]

It really is what it is. Like, I cannot. I cannot do it anymore. I feel like we've jumped in about. I have no idea what I was talking about.

[Crystal]

You're like, you think I. Me with this anxiety and all the different things, the quirks and stuff that I come with, you gonna try to put me into your corporate environment.

[Tracee Clayton]

Right.

[Crystal]

Right.

[Tracee Clayton]

I don't know. I can't return. There's just no going back. I'm not gonna act. Right. I'm gonna walk in with an attitude.

[Crystal]

Oh, no. Okay. See? Yeah. You can't go. See.

[Tracee Clayton]

You don't. You can't.

[Crystal]

You can't.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah, no, no, I think I can't.

[Crystal]

I'm pretty good in a corporate environment. And what I really miss about it is the structure. Cause with my adhd, I do miss structure. That's a problem.

[Tracee Clayton]

I do miss structure.

[Crystal]

It really is. And I'm like, I can't. It's hard to say it. It's hard to believe it, but, like, when I had to get up in the morning and fight the rest of the city on the train to go down to Times Square to go to work and then deal with the fucking city all day and fight again, Rush hour to go back home. Like, it's strange to say, but I. My brain was calmer.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah. Because you didn't have to make a billion decisions during that time.

[Crystal]

It was routine. Yeah. You finna be butt to butt with a million other strangers on the. And that's how it is in the city, that you have no choice.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah. And then you go home.

[Crystal]

Yes.

[Tracee Clayton]

And then you take off the armor and you relax. I definitely do miss order.

[Crystal]

Right.

[Tracee Clayton]

The freelance life is just like me trying to answer my own emails.

[Crystal]

Oh, please. The number of people where I'm like, technically, I saw this two weeks ago. I was simply incapable of responding that part. I'm like, why can't we. We need a service where you could just hire a mom to be like,

[Tracee Clayton]

just hiring a dad.

[Crystal]

Now, here's what you have to do today, little girl. I'm like, yeah, I need a grownup.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yes. Yes.

[Crystal]

Sometimes I need. You have to be that grown up. I'm like, no, no. That's the problem. We need to get a real grown up in here.

[Tracee Clayton]

Sometimes I'm like, should I just get married? I know, I know it's coming to that point, really, for me. But I'm also just. I'm just tired. And like the romance and the anxiety is like a whole different thing. But like, I want to be taken care of.

[Crystal]

Oh.

[Tracee Clayton]

But the wild thing is, okay, getting a little personal.

[Crystal]

Sure.

[Tracee Clayton]

I know someone who would love to take care of me. Right.

[Crystal]

That's 80% of the battle, sister.

[Tracee Clayton]

First of all, I'm just like, this is fake. Oh. Like, when is the other shoe gonna drop?

[Crystal]

Oh, Lord.

[Tracee Clayton]

Anxiety, anxiety. There she is. But also, I am still unlearning this idea that women, black women especially, have to earn being treated well. And so like, I. And also, it's a healthy situation.

[Crystal]

Okay.

[Tracee Clayton]

I don't know what to do with healthiness. I'll be like, Sometimes I'm just like, is everything okay? Like, there are no fights. Like, there's no.

[Crystal]

Where's the toxicity?

[Tracee Clayton]

Where is the toxicity? And sometimes, my friend, sometimes I miss it a little bit. Yeah. Only because it's what I'm used to.

[Crystal]

It's what your brain knows as familiarity.

[Tracee Clayton]

And it will always feel comfortable. And even in a burning building, it's like, well, I know where the bathroom is, at least. Right. Then you end up in a palace.

[Crystal]

You gotta pee up.

[Tracee Clayton]

Just like, I don't know where to go. I'm going back to the dirty building

[Crystal]

where I know where I'm going to find a corner. Yes, exactly. And sabotage this palace the way that

[Tracee Clayton]

I have been trying to sabotage things.

[Crystal]

I know, I know.

[Tracee Clayton]

But because I have now this positive voice in my brain.

[Crystal]

There we go.

[Tracee Clayton]

You know, I'm sticking with things, I'm working with things, you know.

[Crystal]

Shout out to neuroplasticity.

[Tracee Clayton]

Shout out to neuroplasticity.

[Crystal]

It is.

[Tracee Clayton]

It truly, truly is.

[Crystal]

Because our brains want us to be happy in as much as they want us to feel comfort. They want us to seek out what is familiar. Your brain does not want you to feel too challenged or too afraid or too nervous. Your brain wants you to go where the water is level. But so many of us were raised in situations or in environments where chaos was the norm.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah.

[Crystal]

And so when you're finally out of that and you're someplace that is objectively better for you in every way.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yes. The place that you should have been in in the first place, your brain

[Crystal]

is like, where's the bullshit?

[Tracee Clayton]

Like, what is this?

[Crystal]

It's not enough bullshit, right?

[Tracee Clayton]

More bullshit.

[Crystal]

You should be lying. I should be going through your phone,

[Tracee Clayton]

throw this brick through his window right now. It's been too long. We need that.

[Crystal]

Yes. So I'm so glad to hear that you do have this positive voice now that's creeping in like, girl, why you trying to fuck up with the face?

[Tracee Clayton]

Sit your ass down and be loved.

[Crystal]

It's okay. It's okay. Oh, man. See, that's. I'm so happy that you have found something that feels this good. Look at you. Oh, you are just beaming. Stop it.

[Tracee Clayton]

No, I'm not.

[Crystal]

You literally are.

[Tracee Clayton]

Beav. I just happened. I just got so uncomfortable. I'm just like, no, I'm lonely.

[Crystal]

Somebody said, I see the happiness on you, and you're like, fuck that. Right out of nowhere, just like, you take it back.

[Tracee Clayton]

I am a miserable thug. Thank you very much.

[Crystal]

Cause that's what it used to be. That's where you're comfortable.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah. Change is so hard.

[Crystal]

It is.

[Tracee Clayton]

Change in transition is beating my ass. But. There's a but.

[Crystal]

Yes. And thank God for that. Thank God for that. I'm so grateful that there is something where you're like, I actually. Even though it's what I'm used to, even though it's what my brain is

[Tracee Clayton]

begging for, what it is, like, literally craving.

[Crystal]

Literally craving. Yes. This is not actually what's best for me. And I'm so glad there's a part of me now to step in and say, hey, girl. Yeah. What you talking about, girl? What you talking about? I hope my therapists are listening. Y' all are doing so good.

[Tracee Clayton]

Y' all did a good job with me.

[Crystal]

Y' all did such a good job. They have indeed done a good job with you. I feel like I. I have so many. I have so much of that experience I also share, and it is for me. It's like when I can feel myself catching an attitude about every little thing that it is. I like, ugh, I can't believe I have to get in this car and go, 45 minutes, and then I gotta go sit in here and makeup and do this and blah, blah, blah. And how come they didn't do that? So then this voice comes and says, you're being a little Krabby Patty right now, right? Because we're pushing you outside of your comfort zone, which is at home with that dog, right where you're. You don't wanna do nothing but be at home with that dog. Get on TikTok until you're tired of TikTok. And put the phone down for 20 minutes and then pick the phone into another room. Right. And you just wanna do that all day. No, because it's not. You're not going to do that. It doesn't actually feel good. And you know that.

[Tracee Clayton]

And that's the part that I always forget until, like, the other shoe drops. Like, I've foregone all of my responsibilities.

[Crystal]

Yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

I choose my comfort zone. And the next day I'm just like, why the fuck did I do that? Why can't I be a person who does right? You know? Why can't I act right?

[Crystal]

See? No, no, no. Cause now we're beating ourselves up. Okay, okay, okay.

[Tracee Clayton]

Talk me out of this.

[Crystal]

Right? Cause once we get into. Why can't I just do what I want Was just for me. No, because now you're punishing yourself for growing. You're punishing yourself for being human and trying new things and trying to get out of. It can't be that I feel bad for staying home. And then I make myself feel bad because the next day I'm like, damn, why didn't you just like, I'm feeling

[Tracee Clayton]

bad all the time.

[Crystal]

But when you keep kicking yourself, you can never get up. And it sounds like you never get a break from you.

[Tracee Clayton]

I. Oh, my.

[Crystal]

Cut, cut, cut. This is so true. I'm like, damn. When do I catch a damn break? Whose voice is that? Leave me alone, bro. I'm doing my best.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah.

[Crystal]

So what I do now is like, if I don't have to get up super early, like, I don't have. If I have some flexibility in my day, then I'll be like, okay, you know what?

[Tracee Clayton]

We.

[Crystal]

We go walk the dog, feed the dog. I'm gonna sit here and rot until that first time where I'm like, ugh. That first feeling of all right, girl, I scrolled TikTok. I'm over TikTok. Instagram ain't talk about nothing. Now what am I gonna do? Okay, now I'm gonna get up and leave the damn house. I'm just gonna. Whatever. And thank God. I'm very grateful to be in a city where you can just go walk around.

[Tracee Clayton]

I was gonna say, yeah. Yeah.

[Crystal]

I'm glad I don't have to get up and try to drive myself somewhere. Cause that would be another obstacle for me. But I'm getting up and I'm leaving this house. Or if I think about it, there is surely an errand I could or should be running right now that needs to be done. But I can just go get on the train. Just go. Get on. Just go. Spend the $3, get on the train, transfer and get on another train. You have this whole city to yourself. So I'm just gonna switch something up, because that feeling of, like, ugh, I'm tired of this. Why did my. I don't have to get. Get stuck in that. I don't have to stay in that. Just because I decided to start off the day with rotting and wasting time doesn't mean I have to keep it going. But I'm also not gonna beat myself up for that, because that's what's comfortable, that's what feels good. That's where I've been for so long.

[Tracee Clayton]

For so long.

[Crystal]

But I'm also gonna give myself grace as I transition out of that and start doing things that genuinely feel good and are better for me. Beating myself up because I spent that first hour or two at the house

[Tracee Clayton]

it does nothing for.

[Crystal]

And I did that to the detriment of what? Literally nothing. I didn't abandon any responsibility.

[Tracee Clayton]

Like, what did I get from it?

[Crystal]

Right? It's not like I left my baby at school all day and didn't pick her up or some shit. Like, thank God for only having limited responsibilities in this life, because taking care of me is more than enough.

[Tracee Clayton]

Oh, my gosh, this girl, she got

[Crystal]

a lot going on.

[Tracee Clayton]

I need all of my attention for myself.

[Crystal]

Yes, indeed, I want to. I'm just so glad that we have had the chance to sit here and talk about this. This really, you are the perfect person to be on this show.

[Tracee Clayton]

This has been very helpful for me. Like, I've learned that I need to remember that I'm a human.

[Crystal]

You are indeed.

[Tracee Clayton]

That. I'm going to put that in my toolbox.

[Crystal]

Okay.

[Tracee Clayton]

And it's going to help out.

[Crystal]

I'm so glad to hear that. So I do want to talk a little bit about the early days back in the day before podcasting was this giant industry that it is. Do you ever look around, like, where the fuck did all y' all come from?

[Tracee Clayton]

All the time. All the time. Listen. And so the Ambi Awards were Monday, Tuesday, Tuesday. Supposed to be Monday, but of course, Snow. Snow. Yeah. I only made, like, the last 30 minutes, and I'm, like, sitting through all the categories. I didn't know any podcasts that were like. I mean, like, I learned about new podcasts to, like, go listen to, but I was just like, when did this happen? Where? You know, so that. And then also the video component to podcasting now. So it's a Lot.

[Crystal]

I actually hate it.

[Tracee Clayton]

Let's talk about it.

[Crystal]

I don't want. I don't want to be on camera right fucking now.

[Tracee Clayton]

Literally got into podcasting cause you could not see me, girl. Yes, girl.

[Crystal]

And I thank God the read is still audio only. Because I'm like, y' all don't understand. The whole point is to roll up in the studio looking terrible.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yes.

[Crystal]

Because what matters is my voice and my opinions and what I.

[Tracee Clayton]

You sound like. You look presentable. Like on zoom calls, I'm always like, I just have to sound like I have on pants.

[Crystal]

Right.

[Tracee Clayton]

If I sound like I have on

[Crystal]

pants, I have to, you know, preferably,

[Tracee Clayton]

you know, but like, yes, yes.

[Crystal]

The yes. I really do dislike it. And then I'm like, oh, that's cause you're out of your comfort zone. But I have also, you know, let these white people talk me into it. Cause they're like, oh, well, you know, you know, podcasting's different now. You really need a visual component. You need to be able to engage social media.

[Tracee Clayton]

The market has changed.

[Crystal]

70% of new podcast listens are driven by TikTok or some shit. I said, good God. So now I gotta learn new shit. I'm an old woman, right?

[Tracee Clayton]

Right.

[Crystal]

Get off my line.

[Tracee Clayton]

Give me my bonnet back.

[Crystal]

And I've been here since 2013. What you mean I gotta do something new? So this is. I said, I will give y' all six months. They asked for six months. I said, I will give y' all six months.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah.

[Crystal]

If I don't like that shit, I'm gonna go right back to my zoom. I'm gonna go right to come back to the zoom.

[Tracee Clayton]

Literally.

[Crystal]

I'm going back to that zoom and just facetiming people. And we not recording nothing. Goddammit.

[Tracee Clayton]

I hear that.

[Crystal]

But this audio. Yes. So sorry.

[Tracee Clayton]

Oh, it's okay.

[Crystal]

You said that and it sparked something in me.

[Tracee Clayton]

I get it. I get it. Right? And like, as I'm thinking about and considering a return to podcast, like, I gotta keep in mind that, like, this might be.

[Crystal]

It's going to come up. It absolutely is gonna come up.

[Tracee Clayton]

Okay, so let me ask you this. As a freelance podcast host, like me, whenever I'm like, in negotiations or whatever, I always get so frustrated when they're like, okay, so there's video included, right? Cause it's instantly extra labor. And chances are I'm not being paid properly for the labor that I'm giving you anyway.

[Crystal]

Correct.

[Tracee Clayton]

And so now I need to have clothes to wear that look nice.

[Crystal]

So annoying.

[Tracee Clayton]

I need to have makeup done. I can't do my own makeup. So, you know, and I don't want to be out here looking crazy. Cause that makes y' all look bad. The hair alone. I just be like, I feel like, yes, women in media, black women in media should have an allowed stipend.

[Crystal]

Absolutely.

[Tracee Clayton]

For shit like that. If you want video.

[Crystal]

Right.

[Tracee Clayton]

Is that a thing that you, like, ask for?

[Crystal]

Well, I think if I had negotiated with, like, a big podcasting company, yes, that would have been something. But this is my show. Like, I'm working with executive producers Chris and Alex, but this is. This is mine. It's independent technically. And so that's why they really were like, you know, you have been over there in your little. The read bubble, and you don't understand what podcasting is like for everybody else.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah.

[Crystal]

But launching something new, you know, people need to see you. And it's easier to share clips when they're video. Like, people don't listen to audio clips on Instagram. Like, well, why not? Right. Tell them to suggest it. So I do think that's a fair ask, especially because at this point, you're talking about tv. Like, at this point, this is tv. And who goes on TV without hair and makeup and wardrobe? Literally nobody. So, yes. Yes, it's very fair. But I think they're also. Podcasting is a notoriously cheap industry.

[Tracee Clayton]

Oh, they don't want to pay for nothing. They don't want to pay for a thing.

[Crystal]

Yes.

[Tracee Clayton]

And I think it's largely because. Well, I don't know what the perception is now, but, like, in the before times, the idea was that you're just sitting behind a microphone and you talk and then it's over, and you hit a button and you upload to the Internet and, like, it's hardly any work at all.

[Crystal]

Yes.

[Tracee Clayton]

Like, it's never been. I missed that.

[Crystal]

God, I miss it. God, I do.

[Tracee Clayton]

But, like, I feel like the assumption that podcasts are easy to make. Anybody can make a podcast, which is true. Right. Like, so the podcasts that we were making were a little bit higher. Whatever. I don't know what the.

[Crystal]

But anybody can do.

[Tracee Clayton]

Anybody can.

[Crystal]

Especially now that it's so popular. There are websites where you don't have to have any equipment, just whatever headphones you got. You and your homegirls log on and record. Yeah, yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

So this is a big difference in the industry from when I was around, because I remember being really, really frustrated at how people would be like, oh, it's easy. It's not that hard. We'd be like, don't say that we were in the studio from X amount of hours.

[Crystal]

Oh, yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

But I also think that that's something specific to working with big media companies, which I appreciate every opportunity that I have had.

[Crystal]

However, come on, pr.

[Tracee Clayton]

Come on, don't get sued today. But I really envy. Even though I know that it's hard, I know that doing all this stuff on your own is difficult. I don't have a lot of experience with that because there's usually been like a big company behind me, which has come with a lot of trauma. So that's why. And maybe I'm romanticizing the indie experience as well.

[Crystal]

I mean, there's good and bad to both of them.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah.

[Crystal]

There's pluses and minuses, pros and cons, and you just gotta figure out what you can tolerate as far as the cons are concerned. For me, it was like, I guess I'll get on video, girl. But I do feel you with the podcasting, I think, and I honestly think that part of this, the reason that people think podcasting is so easy is because they saw us do it and they were like, I can do what Crystal and Kenfuria do. I can do what Heaven and Tracy are doing. And then they try it and then

[Tracee Clayton]

they're like, oh, oh, extra work, extra work. Oh, you have to prepare for interviews.

[Crystal]

You actually do well, if you want to be good at interviews, you do. A lot of y' all don't care. They have no structure or routine. It's just whatever. They just cut the mic on it and go. So some of it is like, y' all thought you were gonna be better at yapping on a mic and you not as entertaining as you thought you were. You're not as quick or whatever else. But some of it is like, yeah, when you first launch a show, you're so excited. When you're four months in and kind of like, I don't know, I don't feel like it. The consistency is so much of what's challenging about having a long running show.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yes.

[Crystal]

Because are you gonna bring your ass in that studio every week or every month if you batch record or whatever? Are you actually going to show up and be consistent enough for your audience to trust that the show is gonna come out and be able to grow.

[Tracee Clayton]

It requires so much energy.

[Crystal]

It's the number one challenge, I think, with doing the read was like, and if I don't feel like going in to talk about Adele's fucking haircut or whatever, and if I don't fucking Feel like that. Then what? Then what? And so I think some of it is. People saw us being so good and having such great shows, and they were like, why? I can't do that or I surely can? And then they started a show and

[Tracee Clayton]

they're like, oh, there's extra. There's extra.

[Crystal]

This is a lot more work than I thought it would be. And then continuing to do that on a regular basis, it's a lot more challenging than people think it is.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah. And like, the burnout. Yes, it is worth encounter. Yeah, it is worse. So when we first started another round, I remember, like, we didn't start with, like, the idea of, like, okay, how many episodes are we gonna put out per month? Or like, you know, like, we Heaven. And I wanted to do seasons. And if I remember correctly.

[Crystal]

Oh, same.

[Tracee Clayton]

There was pushback against that, right?

[Crystal]

Yep. And there still is.

[Tracee Clayton]

Don't worry.

[Crystal]

It still is.

[Tracee Clayton]

There still is. It's still like, okay, but we had a shitty time because we were tired. Yeah. We were exhausted. Yep. We were also in a broom closet. Oh, yes.

[Crystal]

Kind of.

[Tracee Clayton]

Sort of. Yeah.

[Crystal]

I remember that little. It was a cute little. It was cozy.

[Tracee Clayton]

It was cozy. It existed. It is a thing that did exist for a while.

[Crystal]

It was cozy, Tracy.

[Tracee Clayton]

It was cozy.

[Crystal]

But, yeah, I. When I was. When we were developing Crystal's couch, I really wanted to do seasons real bad.

[Tracee Clayton]

And no seasons.

[Crystal]

These same white people who got me to do the video, they said the advertisers really want to be able to.

[Tracee Clayton]

And it always comes down to what the advertisers want.

[Crystal]

And I'm like, well, what if I don't care about making money?

[Tracee Clayton]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Crystal]

And they're like, oh, well, then, girl, then she, like, would then just set up a little device at home and do this by your damn self then. But.

[Tracee Clayton]

Right.

[Crystal]

But this working with other people, like, the goal here is to bring in income. And I'm like, that's y' all goal?

[Tracee Clayton]

That's your goal?

[Crystal]

My goal is to make a show that I really love and that I'm proud of and that I feel like is doing something right. I'm gonna let y' all handle that business side of things. Cause I honestly don't give too much of a shit about it. I have this idea of, like, how I want to use my degree and all these years of therapy.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah.

[Crystal]

And that's what I want to do. And it's yalls job to monetize it. So that's where they were like, okay, girl, then no seasons. But at least it's not a pop culture show. So if you want to take a week and record every day that week and then take three months off, you can do that, but you're not doing no fucking season. Right.

[Tracee Clayton]

Okay, noted.

[Crystal]

All right.

[Tracee Clayton]

Do you feel like you have a sense yet of which way you'll go, like after the 6 months month mark has hit?

[Crystal]

Not yet. We're kind of like right at that midway point. And so I try not to. The problem is that when it comes to shoot days, I'm always like, why the fuck am I on video, bro? Me and Tracy should be on fucking FaceTime.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yes. Bonnets and little eye masks.

[Crystal]

Bonnets and our eye masks. Chilling.

[Tracee Clayton]

Like, I mean, if that's how I'm the most comfortable, that's how I get the best out of me. Don't you want something good?

[Crystal]

I see. I agree. And so then I'm like. But when I push through that irritation, because at the root of that is I'm being asked to leave my home. And I don't like that.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah, I don't wanna do that shit.

[Crystal]

I don't wanna do that shit. It's like. But it is actually good for me to leave my home.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah.

[Crystal]

So I try not to make decisions based off of that irritation. I sit with it and I'm trying to weigh, you know, the good and the bad. So at the end of the six months, I'm gonna evaluate everything.

[Tracee Clayton]

Uh huh.

[Crystal]

I know the audio numbers are better than the video numbers. So that to me is like, all right, now don't let it keep up.

[Tracee Clayton]

There's data.

[Crystal]

Cause Right, right. Because if this ain't worth it, baby, we'll shut this YouTube shit down.

[Tracee Clayton]

I heard that. I do hear that.

[Crystal]

So I'm gonna take a good, objective look at the numbers. But I'm trying not to let the irritation that certain aspects of it influence that too much. Because again, I'm being pushed out of that place that feels so familiar that I've been in for 13 fucking years. And so. And so coming to do this is like, this is my passion project. It's my heart. Like, I love doing this show. I just don't like being on camera.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah.

[Crystal]

I also love doing the Reid. And with the read, I can go in my goddamn pajamas.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah.

[Crystal]

So it's like y' all really are not. Not making it look super great over here. But you know, I'm gonna take a good look at it objectively at the end of that amount of time. But if it's not worth it, like, if we're spending more on studio and makeup and all that than what it's making back. I don't know what. I don't know how y' all gonna convince me to keep doing it. Cause again, I'm having to pay for all this, so.

[Tracee Clayton]

Okay.

[Crystal]

Yeah, we gonna see.

[Tracee Clayton]

I have another question. I understand this is your show. My bad.

[Crystal]

You are literally.

[Tracee Clayton]

She's an interviewer at heart. I don't know.

[Crystal]

We are. You're so great. Whatever you want to ask.

[Tracee Clayton]

Okay.

[Crystal]

Whatever you want to ask, girl.

[Tracee Clayton]

Okay. What was my question? Shit.

[Crystal]

Shout out to adhd. The ADHD sponsored by adhd, girl.

[Tracee Clayton]

Okay, wait, I think I remember. Okay. So this is your passion project.

[Crystal]

Yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

This is not the thing that you use to, like, pay the bills.

[Crystal]

No. Especially not at this point.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Crystal]

It's still so new.

[Tracee Clayton]

I know that when it comes to podcasts and any media, things like, you can tell something is doing well by the numbers. Right. What is your. What are your metrics that you use to measure how the show is going?

[Crystal]

Right. So, you know, I let the white people that I work with tell me about the numbers and whether they're good and all that, but for me, it's. Do I like this show? Do I feel good about this show? Do I feel like I'm actually doing the thing that I set out to do with this show? Because when I finished my master's, it was like, I'm definitely not going into private practice or any other kind of practice.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah.

[Crystal]

Being a therapist is such a massive responsibility. I simply do not want that responsibility. But I want to take the things that I've learned. I'm like, niggas need to know.

[Tracee Clayton]

Right? Right. I am obsessed with your decision to go back to school.

[Crystal]

I'm so glad I did. Yeah. Really? I'm so glad. Yes. Shout out to the Reid for paying my tuition.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yes.

[Crystal]

But it came about because my therapist was doing such a great job on me, and I'm like, how did you do? I know. It's not witchcraft. It's sort of. It is not. It is science. But I was like, I need to understand how you did this. And, you know, in this climate, a master's degree can't hurt. You know, I'm always thinking about what I'm gonna fall back on. It can't. In case everything falls apart.

[Tracee Clayton]

Just in case.

[Crystal]

You never know.

[Tracee Clayton]

You really don't.

[Crystal]

So I was like, yeah, why not? A master's degree is great for these reasons. And so it was never. I realized very early on that I was not going to plan for a career being a therapist, but with the things that I learned and then, you know, also being in therapy, I was like, I have to figure out, like, I have to do something with this information. And when I briefly had a little segment on the read where sometimes people would write in with, like, more in depth questions, and I would call that. Or mental health stuff. And I would call that Chrysalis Couch. And I stopped doing that very quickly because I was like, oh, it's getting mental. Healthy as hell. Right, right, right. We don't have to answer that. Some of y' all talking about big things, right? Literally. So I was like, let me wait till I'm finished with school to really bring back Krystal's couch so that I want to feel like those things, those goals that I had in mind, those are being executed. If I feel good about the show, I feel like. Like it's serving its intended purpose. I don't really care about it being big. You think I'm coming into this trying to, like, go toe to toe with Joe Rogan or Amy Poehler? Fuck no.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah.

[Crystal]

Fuck no.

[Tracee Clayton]

Plus, that's a rigged competition.

[Crystal]

And I. I mean.

[Tracee Clayton]

I mean, another show too soon. Sorry. Shout out. I love Amy Poehler. I do.

[Crystal]

I do.

[Tracee Clayton]

Shout out.

[Crystal]

It's a fun show, but, like, I'm not trying to compete and have numbers and I'm not studying the charts and all that because I've never been that person. And I just. That's not the point of this.

[Tracee Clayton]

It's also not fun. And I feel like it also just, like, is a wet blanket on, like, the art that you're making.

[Crystal]

And that is supposed to be the point. I already have a show that pays my bills, thankfully, but I'm not releasing another one to, like, replace that income or whatever. Like, I'm doing this because I really feel strongly about mental health. Going to therapy changed my life. And I would really hate to think of where I'd be right now if I had not started seeing my therapist seven, eight years ago. Cause I was on my way to being a fucking mess, bro. I mean, I was already a mess. But it was gonna be. So it was gonna be a little more be. It was gonna be way worse for me. So however I can take the things I've learned and distill them out into the world in a way. You know, I'm not up here speaking in, like, master's degree level jargon or nothing, but if I'm able to meet

[Tracee Clayton]

people where they are.

[Crystal]

Yes, I love that. So that is what success looks like for me with regards to this show. And I love. Like, I do genuinely love doing it,

[Tracee Clayton]

so you can tell. You can tell. I am so proud of you.

[Crystal]

Thank you.

[Tracee Clayton]

I really, really am. And I also. So I look for people that the industry has not, like, chewed up and spat out, you know, Yet. Yet. But, like, I feel like, especially being a black woman in any media space, twice as good, yada, yada, yada. But, like, the. It's so much harder. You have so much more to traverse on the journey to just, like, make sure that you are okay. Right. And it seems like you have been very intentional about that. You know what you need. You know what your boundaries are. And you were like, this is that. And that's it. That is a skill that I wish I had. Then I understand why I didn't. Yeah. I mean, I did.

[Crystal]

I always. This is. It's relatively new, you know, and that inspires me in the grand scheme of my life.

[Tracee Clayton]

That inspires me as well. Because, like, I'm. It's just such a different world from where you come from.

[Crystal]

Sorry, you didn't. I couldn't. I tried not to. I was just like, I have to.

[Tracee Clayton]

Let me just get out there.

[Crystal]

I said it now. I had to let it out. Oh, girl.

[Tracee Clayton]

Right. But, like, looking at this new landscape, you know, and honestly trying to decide how much longer I want to be in it.

[Crystal]

Yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

Cause lately I'm just like. I wanna write because, like, my journey was interrupted by, like, the Internet stuff, Right? And, like, I miss. I stopped, like, learning. I stopped reading. I stopped writing once the podcast became my full night, nine to five. And I miss it. And, like, I hate social media now. I hate it. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it. I love all of my social media friends, but I hate that it even exists. Right? Because, like, it's just so. It's not what it was, Right. It's a money maker, and I don't want anything to do with it. And I resent that. Like, you kind of have to.

[Crystal]

You have to play the algorithm games.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah.

[Crystal]

I'm like, what do y' all want from me? I don't do this.

[Tracee Clayton]

Look, I came here to say some stuff into a microphone, literally.

[Crystal]

That's that.

[Tracee Clayton]

That is it.

[Crystal]

You want me to develop a social media strategy? Fuck no. Get out of my face with this.

[Tracee Clayton]

I think about leaving media at least once a day. I truly, truly do. But then I have moments where I'm like, right now, I'm like, I miss this.

[Crystal]

This is great.

[Tracee Clayton]

I miss it. I'm having a blast.

[Crystal]

You just pretend the cameras aren't here and it's perfect. You see, I've been like this the whole time.

[Tracee Clayton]

I don't know if anybody knows about

[Crystal]

all that's not even right here.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, I'm trying to decide in trying to decide, like, what do I want? What can I handle and what can I not handle?

[Crystal]

Yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

I look towards you and, like, your career trajectory just to know that there are different options out there. Right. Like, the idea of, like, so I can go to school and get a master's degree and then just, like, chill out and not use it. Like, I never thought of that before. Oh, yeah, I would love.

[Crystal]

I want all of the degrees.

[Tracee Clayton]

Oh, girl. I need a sponsor, though.

[Crystal]

I'm going.

[Tracee Clayton]

If there's any sponsors, shout out to

[Crystal]

CUNY and their very low tuition. Because, I mean, I could have gone to Teachers College or nyu, but CUNY schools and that much, much lower tuition. But I'm doing that now. Now I'm plotting on sociology and somebody who works at Howard Law told me I would be a good lawyer. I'm like, don't tell me now.

[Tracee Clayton]

You gotta take a lot of plans.

[Crystal]

I love Scoop. I love it.

[Tracee Clayton]

You're like Lynn from Girlfriend. I am.

[Crystal]

I love it. But, you know, Lynn refused to work. Aside from that part. Aside from that part. But learning is genuinely fun for me. And so, yeah, I wanna learn everything I can. And however it comes out in the capitalistic sense is how it comes out. But I think I always have in the back of my mind of, like, this fucking system just extracting everything it can from people and then tossing them aside and leaving them to, like, fuck this. Fuck this.

[Tracee Clayton]

Literally don't care if you live or die. You know, it's just like, whatever you do on your time is your business.

[Crystal]

Yeah. Everything comes back to capitalism. It truly does.

[Tracee Clayton]

It does.

[Crystal]

But I think what's so important is us carving out, you know, whatever we can as far as, like, joy and purpose and what feels right.

[Tracee Clayton]

Mm.

[Crystal]

And that's what I really need and letting it. Yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

Like, just the joy. Like, I wanna do dumb shit. I wanna do the dumbest stuff. I wanna give people just, like, a break from everything that's going on. Like, look, pass on the animal corner, girl.

[Crystal]

You need to put that Animal Corner on YouTube. She was like, I was with you. And then you see video. But, I mean, I'm. Fucking visuals would be with your animal corn. You need to see the animals.

[Tracee Clayton]

You do need to see the animals.

[Crystal]

Yeah. I'm just saying it's something to think about.

[Tracee Clayton]

It is.

[Crystal]

It's something to think about.

[Tracee Clayton]

Okay.

[Crystal]

Tracy.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yes.

[Crystal]

Thank you so much for donating your very valuable time and wisdom and expertise to my little show.

[Tracee Clayton]

Literally anytime.

[Crystal]

You are just. Again, when I think about, like, the start of my podcasting career, you and Heaven are right there. And I just. You have such an important voice.

[Tracee Clayton]

Thank you.

[Crystal]

And such a unique experience. I know that whatever you choose to do and however you choose to move forward is gonna be what's right for you. Cause you got that little voice in your head I do have telling you to stop beating your own ass. Stop beating your own ass, girl.

[Tracee Clayton]

Bitch, you are human. Stop it. That's what this is gonna say now. And I'm so excited. I'm so excited for that.

[Crystal]

Tell the people. We're gonna remind ourselves of the cameras are. Tell the people where they can find you O.

[Tracee Clayton]

So you can find me on social media. Technically, to be fair, I will see you when you send me stuff. I am okymcpoverty, which I can't believe

[Crystal]

that's still your username all these millions of years later. I'm just like, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Tracee Clayton]

The gag was I was gonna change my name to Richie Von Moneyheimer once I got rich, so hopefully I won't be broken in poverty for too much time.

[Crystal]

Okay, work, work. I see it.

[Tracee Clayton]

But then there's, like, branding and stuff.

[Crystal]

I mean, girl, you can't get rid of that. Somebody else is gone. Snatch it up and then use it to sell AI flop. And you're going to be like, God damn.

[Tracee Clayton]

Damn it.

[Crystal]

You're right, you're right.

[Tracee Clayton]

You got to keep it so broken. McPoverty on all of the things. I technically still have a Twitter account, but I just didn't want to delete it. I'm not on Twitter.

[Crystal]

I'm saying, don't do that. It's there, but don't follow me.

[Tracee Clayton]

It's there and you like me. I will not see you if you.

[Crystal]

I will not Threads.

[Tracee Clayton]

I am on Instagram. I am on. Those are the easiest ways to get me. If you happen to have a job and you're posting, if you happen to work for, like, Animal Planet or, like, the Audubon Society or something, I have a show for you. Hit me up via email. I'm gonna give you the email for that. Ooh, yeah, Tracy. T R A c y l cmail.com it's gonna be so much fun. I was about to say something. Did you know? Okay, I would love to end this on a very random animal. Facts.

[Crystal]

Love that.

[Tracee Clayton]

Okay, um, the. Okay, so the animal. Okay, so there is an animal called a tenrec t e n r e C. It is like.

[Crystal]

I'm gonna Google it.

[Tracee Clayton]

Okay. It's like a little hedgehog porcupine. Like Weasley. Yeah.

[Crystal]

Oh, it is kind of cute.

[Tracee Clayton]

Yeah.

[Crystal]

Kind of cute. Yeah.

[Tracee Clayton]

Cool thing about them is they have the most nipples of any mammal. They can have up to 18 pairs of nipples.

[Crystal]

Pairs.

[Tracee Clayton]

Pairs. Which means 36 nipples. 36 nipples, yes. Yeah.

[Crystal]

How many children does this have? It needs to breastfeed. These are functional nipples, I assume.

[Tracee Clayton]

I've never yucked.

[Crystal]

I don't wanna say yuck. I mean, God gave you 36 nipples,

[Tracee Clayton]

you know, sure, maybe they feed the community. I don't know. I'm not too sure. But random facts like these could be yours for the low, low price of

[Crystal]

give that girl an animal shot.

[Tracee Clayton]

Whatever I'm worth.

[Crystal]

Thank you again for being on Chrissal's couch. I appreciate you so much.

[Tracee Clayton]

I appreciate you to the moon and back in anytime.

[Crystal]

Thank you, my dear.

[Tracee Clayton]

Come find me. I would love.

[Crystal]

Thank you so much.

[Tracee Clayton]

Thank you.

[Crystal]

That's gonna wrap up this week's episode of Crystal's Couch. If you have a question for me, please send me an email. Advicelesscouch.com we'll see you next week.