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- [00:01]
Podcast Host (Ad Read)
This episode is brought to you by Prime Obsession is in session and this summer Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice off campus. Elle every year after the Love Hypothesis, Sterling Point and more slow burns, second chances chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting.
- [00:28]
Commercial Voiceover
Watch only on Prime Focus features in Blumhouse Obsession.
- [00:33]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
When I have a crush on a
- [00:34]
Commercial Voiceover
guy no one knows, be careful.
- [00:37]
Roxane Gay
I wish Nikki loved me more than anyone in the entire world.
- [00:41]
Commercial Voiceover
Who you wish for obsession is 96% fresh on rotten Tomatoes.
- [00:46]
Roxane Gay
I love you so so so so much.
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Commercial Voiceover
It's blood soaked nightmare fuel.
- [00:51]
Roxane Gay
Brooke Hunger spills. You put on her.
- [00:53]
Commercial Voiceover
You have been warned. Obsession. Rated R under 17 animated without parent only theaters May 15 with special engagements in Dolby.
- [01:02]
Podcast Host (Ad Read)
Ready to soundtrack your summer with Red Bull Summer All Day Play. You choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end dj, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull Summer All Day Play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit red bull.com brightsummerahead to learn more. See you this summer.
- [01:28]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Hi and welcome back to Crystal's Couch, the show where I answer your letters for advice and talk to the most interesting people in the world.
- [01:34]
Sponsor Voiceover
Today.
- [01:35]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
I am so honored to be joined by the incomparable Roxane Gay, one of the most important voices of our time. She is the author of groundbreaking works like Bad Feminist and Hunger, A Memoir of My Body where she's redefined how we talk about feminism, identity, body image, and the complex complexities of being human. Her work is as intellectually sharp as it is deeply personal, creating space for honesty, nuance, and vulnerability in conversations that often lack all three. Through her writing, commentary and cultural influence, Roxanne has challenged me personally to think deeper and confront uncomfortable truths with clarity and compassion. I am truly honored to have her on the couch today. Please welcome Roxane Gay to the show. Oh my goodness. Hello. I'm truly honored to have you here. I'm a little flummoxed and just so grateful because you are really one of like these writers for me and someone I've been reading casually for a long time. Hunger really, really made such a huge impact on me. I found that that book to be just so moving and really illuminated a lot of things for me that I had not previously considered. So thank you for being here. Thank you for insisting this thing on audio Only because although we do have a video component to this show, usually
- [02:55]
Roxane Gay
I didn't even know it was audio only. I. I even yelled out my baby ass.
- [03:03]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
They told me they were like, Roxanne's people ask, can it just be audio? And I'm like, absolutely. I. I want to keep a podcast. A podcast. So, I mean, shout out podcast, literally. So thank you so much again for being here. I want to jump into something that I think may be a little more lighthearted or fun. I know that you have a dog. Maximus Toretto. Blueberry is his name. Yes, he's right here.
- [03:27]
Roxane Gay
Maximus Toretto Blueberry Millman Gay.
- [03:29]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Millman gay. Oh, and how old is Maximus now?
- [03:35]
Roxane Gay
Max, how old are you?
- [03:37]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, what a sweetheart.
- [03:39]
Roxane Gay
He just said he's five. He's gonna be six this year.
- [03:43]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, man. How has dog parenthood changed you?
- [03:48]
Roxane Gay
I mean, I don't like dogs, and so I'm not a dog person, but I guess now I am. Or at least I'm a Max person. It has been so eye openening, because I had never had a dog before. I grew up in a Haitian household. Animals belong outside, no pets. Plus, my mom was a clean freak, and so she always thought dogs were messy, though she did love Max very much. But, you know, it really does show you what your capacity for love is in a way that is even more. That is different than from loving a human, which also is a very profound experience. But I know that he needs me. He has to be taken care of. I mean, he's very independent, very bright, very bold. He thinks he's a pit bull, and I find that adorable. But he weighs 10 pounds and can't eat if we don't feed him. And so I know that it's not parenting, but I understand what it means to care for someone who needs that care, regardless, will never not need that care. And it has, definitely. I feel like I already had a big heart, but it certainly expanded my heart. He's. And we. We got. I don't know. For me, it's because it's my first dog. I have nothing to compare it to, but I feel like we got a very good dog. He's just sweet. He gets along with everyone. He is a barker, which is a lot.
- [05:26]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
It is.
- [05:27]
Roxane Gay
He takes it upon himself. We live here in New York and also in Los Angeles, and he. If you walk by our house, if you think about walking by our house, if you look at it, if you pause too long, if you pull up, he has something to say, and it's so funny. He's so territorial and, you know, he's just a fascinating creature. Do you have a dog?
- [05:52]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
I do. My dog Lainey is one and a half, so I'm deep in the puppy.
- [05:57]
Roxane Gay
Oh, yes, of course. I remember Lainey from daycare.
- [06:02]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, you saw Lainey's sex tape?
- [06:05]
Roxane Gay
I sure did. Lainey was out there. She was out there and she. In the streets. She's in them streets.
- [06:12]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
And I was, yeah, yeah, she's friendly, you know, she loves other dogs. She's never met anyone, dog or human, that she does not like. She is the sweetest girl. So she has really pushed me in a lot of ways. Just the, you know, walking her multiple times a day and having to talk to other people because she interacts with their dogs and with them, and she's just always auditioning for someone's love or attention. But I really. I really relate to what you said about this. You know, it isn't parenthood, but it teaches you something about yourself when you are in service to this dependent being. And, of course, dogs are different from human children in that way because kids grow up and become their own autonomous beings, whereas dogs will always need us. They are perpetually, you know, three years old. So.
- [07:04]
Roxane Gay
And I like that in some ways, you know, it just has completely also reoriented my relationship to time because we got him during the pandemic. And so we were holed up in la, and other than the world falling apart, we had a blast. The first time we were living together, everyone kept calling to check in on us, like, are you guys okay? Yeah, we're okay. And we just eloped. We're good. Don't worry, I'll need this. We had the time of our lives. And to have this little dog just sort of bouncing around. He assumed that we never left the house.
- [07:48]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, right.
- [07:49]
Roxane Gay
That if we did leave the house, he went with him. He went with us. And so now, you know, when we leave the house, he looks at us like it is the biggest betrayal that has ever betrayed. And he gets, like, little, like, watery eyes. And he's. Especially in la, he'll like, when we go to the garage, there's a glass door for the kitchen. And he stares at us with his head sort of cocked to the left as if to say, oh, no, you forgot something. Right now when I'm out, I understand people who are always like, I have to go check on the dog. But now I'm like, we have to go back. We have a dog. We can't be out, like, until 3 in the morning. Just carefree.
- [08:32]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Yes. And I also enjoy that aspect of, you know, Lainey will never really grow. You know, she won't grow up and move away from me and break my heart in that way. It'll be something devastating in a different way. But I also found it really rewarding and validating to take care of someone who I felt really deserved it, because I had been sort of taking care of since childhood, taking care of adults, emotional needs with, you know, without really being aware of that. But it turned me into. I started therapy maybe seven or eight years ago, and immediately I sort of switched into this mode of, oh, I'm not taking care of shit. I'm not taking care of anybody or anything. Like, I deserve all my attention. And so giving that now to. To someone who, quote, unquote, deserves it, like a dog, has been really validating and rewarding for me. So I. When I know someone else has a dog, I always want to talk to them about their experience of being a dog owner or pet parent, however they refer to themselves, because it can really change your life. It can crack your heart wide open.
- [09:42]
Roxane Gay
It really can. And, you know, my wife has had dogs before. She had two dogs before we met, and they died about six months before we met. And they had. She had had them for, like, 17 and 18 years, so it was rough. And when we met, she actually said, I'm not ready for another dog. And I said, that's great, because I am never gonna have a dog.
- [10:04]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
I don't do that.
- [10:05]
Roxane Gay
That's not for me. And if you wanna date me, just know there will not be a dog in our future. And then I noticed in the first couple years of dating that whenever we would be walking around in. In the city, she. If she saw a dog, she would be like, doggy. And it's particularly funny because she's a lifelong New Yorker. Like, she's the kind of person who does not move from her lane when walking down the sidewalk. A little terrifying. And a Scorpio. And so when for her to sort of shed the, like, stylish, fancy New Yorker facade to say, doggy. Who is this person? And so I got her the dog for her birthday. It turns out that I'm his favorite.
- [10:55]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Isn't that always how it goes? The person is, like, ambivalent about it. The dog's like, no, I'm here to teach you something.
- [11:02]
Roxane Gay
Yeah, he's rude. Because when we come home, like, even last night, we came home from an event I had to do, and she opened the door and he ran past Her.
- [11:14]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
He's like, oh, okay, spare. I press there.
- [11:20]
Roxane Gay
And Emma was like, stop. Like, bruh, what are you doing?
- [11:25]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Give her some love. Cool.
- [11:28]
Roxane Gay
He loves her, too, very much.
- [11:30]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
How sweet. I did have dogs growing up, but my black American household, it was very different. They lived outside, and outside is where they stayed. And they had kibble mixed with whatever our leftovers were that nobody was gonna eat, chicken drippings and things like that. So it's been very different to have this New York City inside dog, but a beautiful experience. So thank you for sharing that with me. I wanna get into some of the things you've written before and maybe see how they tie into your life now or if things have changed your approach to social media and fans and what you have coming up down the pipeline. So back in 2019, you wrote about bad feminist and said that you didn't want to be put on a pedestal as a feminist or as anything, because when you're on a pedestal, you're frozen in time. You're not allowed to grow or fail or move. And you knew that you would inevitably disappoint anyone who, I think you said, saw fit to elevate me, which is a beautiful way of phrasing that, but so you said, of course people put me on a pedestal anyway. And inevitably, you disappointed them. You've disappointed yourself. Do you still feel that way about not wanting to be idolized or looked at as someone who is maybe better or should be held to higher standards than the average person?
- [12:56]
Roxane Gay
Absolutely. Now, a lot of times people misinterpret that a bit and feel like I'm trying to skirt responsibility or accountability, and that's not what I'm doing. I just seen that prominent public feminists tend to be held to an unrealistic standard or a standard that they had no business, they had no part in creating. Now, you should hold me accountable for my decisions and for my values 100%. But I am not positioning myself as the arbiter of who is or is not the right kind of feminist. That's not my ministry.
- [13:40]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Right.
- [13:40]
Roxane Gay
And so I want to be treated the way I treat people, which is to say, yes, please hold me accountable. I do make mistakes. Um, but I'm not asking to be put on a pedal pedestal or revered. I'm just a writer. That said, I recognize that with visibility and with some success, people do look up to you. That's inevitable. I can't change the way of the world. And so I'm not ignorant of the position that I have. And I'm also Not unwilling to bear the responsibilities that do come with visibility and with power.
- [14:24]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Okay. Because I think that's where I agree with that. And I think that because when my friend and I started the read 13 years ago and it sort of became this very quick sensation, it was very challenging for me to go from regular everyday person to someone that other people paid such close attention to. And it isn't. It doesn't feel like a natural way of living. Um, and at the same time, the pros outweigh the cons. And so trying to learn to live with that attention on me has been something that has taken up a significant amount of time in therapy trying to.
- [15:05]
Roxane Gay
And.
- [15:06]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
And of course, so much of that ties back into childhood trauma and feeling like there was a spotlight on me and all of my mistakes. And so really wanting to shirk all of that in adulthood just to find myself back in a position where people are. It. It felt like people were ready to pounce. And sometimes that feeling sticks out more than the overwhelming amount of love and support and encouragement that also comes my way. It's just a sad fact of being human that those critical moments can really seem to stick out and affect us the most.
- [15:46]
Roxane Gay
Well, yes. And the challenge and the sad thing is I hear the criticism far more than I ever hear what is disproportionately the praise or the support.
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Crystal (Podcast Host)
Right.
- [15:59]
Roxane Gay
But I hone in on that one person who hates me so much, and it just hurts my soul. And part of it does actually go back to childhood. I was raised in a very strict household that was the oldest daughter of immigrants. I did not have to do like, caretaking or anything like that. I will say I had emotionally mature parents and they were very active parents. I did not have to parent my younger brothers. I did have responsibilities toward them. But it wasn't that. It's that I was expected to be perfect. Yes, I had to get straight A's, and not just straight A's, but like straight A pluses. An A minus was not allowed. And so it was a lot of pressure. And in turn, I learned how to put a lot of pressure on myself. And I am still trying to unravel myself from all of that and to recognize that I'm allowed to be human, even though, quite frankly, I wasn't. And so when people criticize me and I take it badly, they assume it's because I'm thin skinned, which maybe I am. But it's also a lot deeper. It has nothing to do with what you actually said and everything to do with my Background and my personality and the way I am, like I'm a people pleaser. I struggle to say no to my own detriment. And unfortunately, when you are in the public eye as a black woman, and I'm curious if you found this to be the case. People expect you to be a never ending font of giving and generosity.
- [17:31]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Yes.
- [17:32]
Roxane Gay
They want your time, they want your attention. Random people, straight up, reach out and send me the Venmo requests. Asking for money.
- [17:40]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, yes.
- [17:41]
Roxane Gay
And like people I've never met, I'm not talking about friends, I'm not talking about family, you know, I'm talking about random people I will never meet. And you're always in this position where you look like a bitch if you say no or, you know, I get about anywhere from 10 to 40 blurb requests a week.
- [18:06]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh yes, I bet you do.
- [18:08]
Roxane Gay
I can't keep up with that because I actually do read the books I blurb. My name means something to me and so I have to say no. Sometimes I get mentoring requests. I mentor as many people as humanly possible. But I also, you know, I have a family, I have my own work, I teach, I have a full time job. You know, it's so hard that people expect you to sort of be everything, to be everyone. And then when you say no to one person, all of a sudden you are the problem. You're gatekeeping. The way that gatekeeping has been weaponized to me, I'm not getting what I want is, is really quite something and a choice. And it's, it's unfortunate because gatekeeping does exist. But being told no once in an industry where you're going to hear no all the time, right? That's not gatekeeping, my friend. And so it's a lot of pressure. It's a lot of pressure and it's hard. I mean, don't cry for me, I'll be fine. But it's also hard.
- [19:13]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
No, I agree. I love that you said my name means something to me because if I see a Roxane gay blurb, I'm 100% more likely to buy that book. So I understand that you take the time to actually read all of them before you give this endorsement of a writer. And there is no way you could possibly accommodate everyone who wants a piece of your energy or time. So it's not possible.
- [19:39]
Roxane Gay
And also, like, I really only want to blur books I love. And fortunately, I do get a lot of amazing books. Like there are some really dope writers out there. And so if I endorse your Work. I really do believe in it and I really think it's wonderful.
- [19:54]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Yeah, I understand the pressure of growing up and having to be perfect. My parents were both, you know, black Americans, like I said, who grew up in the 50s and 60s. They both have master's degrees, so they have this, they had these very high standards. For us, college was not an option. It was more of, where are you going, but are you going to. College was never an option. It was never a question. And I mean, I remember very vividly in the fifth grade, the first time I got an 89 on a test. I was beaten ferociously for that. Like, I was whipped for getting an 89. And I just will never forget those. Those standards were so high for me. And so, yes, now that I'm a public figure to some degree, having those same or what felt so much like criticisms and unfair expectations for me initially, I definitely, um, I think I lashed out a lot at that, not knowing where the real pain was coming from. But now that I've been through so much therapy, I've been to grad school to get my master's in mental health counseling. I do now feel like I embrace the imperfection. Almost like I have to, I have to, for me, because there's still a part of me to some degree that believes I should be this incredibly high achieving person who doesn't ever get it wrong. And that's an impossible standard to live up to. So now it's like, yeah, I am actually going to mess up. I, I, if I get it wrong and I truly believe that, then it's not a problem for me to acknowledge that. But that has been a very long time coming. This idea of like, you know what, yes, fine, sometimes you are just not gonna like me. You're not gonna agree with what I said, and that is not the same wrong. But also if I am wrong, then I can be held accountable for that. I can answer for that. And so just trying to sort through all of those things and again, tying it back to where it really comes from has been pivotal for me in trying to manage this career and this sort of very large audience that I didn't necessarily ask for. I feel like I kind of stumbled into it and now it's like, well, what are you going to do with it?
- [22:19]
Sponsor Voiceover
This episode of Crystal's Couch is sponsored by BetterHelp. May is mental health awareness month. And I want to remind you that whatever it is you're going through, you don't have to go through it alone. Life is full of ups and downs. And if you're anything like me, you're very, very used to isolating yourself and trying to figure it all out on your own. But the truth is that no human is an island and we all deserve to have someone who listens, understands and supports us through life's challenges. It truly can make all the difference. So this month is really a great time to check in with yourself and understand where you are right now. Feeling overwhelmed, stuck, anxious, or unsure is way more common than you think it is. Babe. We've all been there before and honestly, we'll probably be there again. Okay? There's no need to try to do it all yourself. If you've been feeling this way, regularly meeting with a therapist can help you manage that stress. As someone who's been in therapy for over eight years, I can personally vouch for how life changing the experience has been for me. BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform with over 30,000 fully licensed therapists ready to support your Overall well being. BetterHelp takes some of the guesswork out of finding the right therapist by using a short questionnaire to help identify your specific needs and preferences. But if you're not satisfied, BetterHelp allows you to switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have someone with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com chrysal that's betterhelp.com C-R-I S S L E this episode of Crystal's Couch is brought to you by Squarespace. Now, whether you're just starting out or if you're trying to grow your business, Squarespace is that perfect all in one website platform designed to help your business stand out and succeed online. Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer services and get paid all in one place.
- [24:20]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Now if you've ever run a business,
- [24:22]
Sponsor Voiceover
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- [25:16]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
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- [25:17]
Sponsor Voiceover
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- [25:21]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
these multiple sites that I have through
- [25:23]
Sponsor Voiceover
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- [25:55]
Roxane Gay
And you know when you're kind of as a creative person dreaming about what you want for yourself. For me, I dreamt that I could write a book that people might read. That genuinely was the extent of my dream because I did not know what more to dream for. I, I had no idea. I, you know, you know, again, with people online, there are a lot of like, conspiracy theories, oh, you have to know someone in publishing and yada, yada, yada, it's like, no, I'm a girl from the Midwest. I was just online googling, how do I find an agent? And then I followed those instructions and got an agent. And it's, in some ways it's like, it's complicated, but it's also not. It's just like, that's just how it is. And so I didn't have any magical connections. And while I certainly had professional parents, I did not know any writers. I didn't know anyone who knew any writers. So there was no sort of model for what to expect, what to want, et cetera. And so I just focused on, man, I hope I write something good and I hope a few people read it. And so everything that has come since has been wonderful but a little overwhelming because I just had no idea what to ask for.
- [27:10]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Right.
- [27:10]
Roxane Gay
And what to expect. There's no roadmap for this when you don't come from a family or a community that understands writing can possibly be, or creativity of any kind can possibly be a career.
- [27:25]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Yes.
- [27:27]
Roxane Gay
You know, there's, there's some learning curve there and I'm glad to be able to navigate that Learning curve. But when people just assume it's just like all predestined, et cetera, it's like, no, no, no. Like we're all figuring it out. Especially, I think, when you are a woman of color and a black woman in particular. Right.
- [27:48]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
How long did it take your parents to come around to the idea of you writing as a career?
- [27:54]
Roxane Gay
How old am I. Now? I will say they never discouraged me from writing. They always just told me, you can have that little passion of yours while you become a lawyer, doctor, engineer. Right. And even when I was getting my PhD, they were like, I don't know, are you gonna go to medical school after this?
- [28:22]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Right.
- [28:23]
Roxane Gay
Oh, like, are you? So it was really when they could. When, when an Untamed state came out and I was profiled in Time magazine, which was still a print magazine at that time. I actually don't know if it still is, but that's when it became real to them. But also they could go to Barnes and Noble and my dad loves to, like, we arranged the stock in Barnes and Noble very gently, very gently. But just making sure that my books are outward facing and that for them made them realize, oh, she might actually make a go of this writing thing. And from then on, they've been. For the past 12 years, it's been nothing but support.
- [29:08]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
I love that. Wonderful. The idea of, like, sure, you can write while you go do something real. That is so common for us. I feel like black people are just like, we have this image, especially in this country. It's like, you have to do something that we consider to be an actual measure of success in like a capitalist. In a capitalist sense. And something that we feel like we can brag to the other family members about or something we can show off about you. And it was the same for me, creative endeavors. It was like, yes, do that. Like, I was. I played the piano. My parents invested in private. A private piano tutor for me. But that was because the piano was supposed to make me smarter. It was supposed to make my college applications look better. It wasn't because we want you to love music and.
- [30:04]
Roxane Gay
Right. It wasn't about the passion for the like, for music, for sure.
- [30:10]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Yes.
- [30:11]
Roxane Gay
Which is always so funny. Like, okay, so you don't want me to just develop a passion or a skill for music or a creative and well rounded person.
- [30:20]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
No, no.
- [30:21]
Roxane Gay
You want me to. Okay, got it.
- [30:23]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
This is going to help you in other ways. Right. And that is what we're most concerned with. So it feels good to sort of break that cycle within myself. And. And get into doing things just for the fun of it and allowing myself the process of growing and not automatically being good at something. I don't know if you share this experience, but I have definitely been the sort of person where if I don't get it right the first time or if I don't feel like I knock it out of the park, then that's over.
- [30:51]
Roxane Gay
Oh, for me, it's chalk. I tried, right? Move on to the next. Move on to the next. Which is why it's weird that I'm a writer, because you rarely get it right the first time. That's a writer.
- [31:04]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, my goodness.
- [31:05]
Roxane Gay
Oh.
- [31:06]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
The very first time I was published in. God forgive me, I don't remember if it was Ebony or Essence, but I wrote a short essay, and I just thought before I sent this off to my editor that she was going to be like, 10 out of 10, no notes. When I actually went through the. The editing process, I was like, excuse me.
- [31:27]
Roxane Gay
How cool.
- [31:30]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
I was like, but I'm good at this. How can it be that? And we had to. I was like, oh, this is a collaborative process. I have to work with you, and you are pushing me to be a better writer and make this a better piece. I thought whatever I did was. Whatever I wrote was perfect. As soon as I wrote it, like, I went back through it, I thought it was great. What do you mean? So, yes, yes.
- [31:53]
Roxane Gay
And I wish more young writers understood that, because, you know, I firmly believe, and in my experience, editors do still edit, but a lot of times people's work is just passed right through or when they get edits. When younger writers get edits, they do get in their feelings and then don't know what to do beyond that. And I really always want to implore to them that it is a process and that you are lucky when someone takes the time to edit you and keep you from showing your ass in public and then also working with you to make the work better. Like, it can always be made better. And even though people never seem to believe this, when I first share it, I rarely say no to an edit. I think two or three times at this point in a very long career have I said no to an edit. And I was right. But for the other 2,000 times, I've said yes to the edits. It's because it really forced me to take a step back and really reconsider and ask myself, okay, what does the piece really need? It's not about ego at that point. It's about the work. And I think Those of us who have been fortunate enough to have people invested in the work with us really do get to allow our work to grow.
- [33:12]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Yes, yes. The finished product that was actually published in the magazine was so much better than my first draft. And I was very grateful for that experience after I went through it. But I definitely initially was like, I'm not used to anyone telling me that my work needs more work like this was. It was kind of frightening at first to be challenged in that way, but ultimately it made the piece much better. I was something I'm still proud of to this day. But yeah, I think you're right. Especially in this age of Internet publishing and Internet publications and how the standards for that have shifted so much. And we find more and more publications that used to feel more respected are kind of playing the social media game. It feels like they're, they're just looking for clicks and not always getting things right. And of course, you know, you have to pay editors, especially good ones. And so when you can just cut that out entirely and tell somebody, hey, you know, make it an opinion think piece with maybe a couple of facts thrown in and we'll just put it up on the website, you really don't get the opportunity to, to be challenged in your craft. And so you don't grow in it, I think.
- [34:30]
Roxane Gay
And you know what's interesting is also sometimes there is a racism component to it where white editors are afraid to edit black writers because they don't want to seem racist and like, they just let the work through, which does us all a disservice.
- [34:53]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Yes.
- [34:54]
Roxane Gay
And it's hard to even talk about, but at the same time it's like, do your job. Oh yes, like black people are. If you think your little edits are going to derail someone who lives with racism every single day in a deeply racist world. You really think too highly of yourself. Said the goddamn edits, Please do.
- [35:22]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
And you know, I think for me, it made me understand that editing is not grammar and syntax and punctuation. There is a, there's another component here and it made me realize, like, oh,
- [35:34]
Roxane Gay
I'm good for like.
- [35:36]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
This is a run on sentence. This is a spelling error. You can say this more clearly. I'm not the editor who can look at your work and figure out how to make it better per se. I can just do sort of the red pen corrections. Yeah. And that's fine. I'm perfectly happy to be, you know, a part time writer with a blog that I update once a year and, and focus on other things.
- [36:00]
Roxane Gay
Instead.
- [36:01]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
So you have written so much about very many topics, feminism and body image and trauma and sexual assault, things along this nature. Has it been a cost that has felt at times too much emotionally or personally to be so honest in your work?
- [36:26]
Roxane Gay
No, but that's because I have always had firm boundaries over that honesty. Like, I always try to protect myself by making sure I have clear boundaries. And so if I'm putting something into the public sphere, then I am very clear that I don't have control over it. I don't have control over how other people engage with it. And that's challenging. But I, like, it can be scary, it can be difficult, et cetera. But because I thought carefully about what I'm willing to subject myself to and what I'm not, it's easier. That makes it easier. But I also have a range of coping mechanisms because it is hard. And so I genuinely tell myself, like, girl, don't worry, nobody's going to read it. They're just not. Oh, I delude myself.
- [37:36]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
I was going to say it's a delusion. Yeah, we're just lying to ourselves now because you are the. Absolutely.
- [37:42]
Roxane Gay
Absolutely. I lie to myself, like, girl, it's okay. No one's going to read it. And quite frankly, sometimes that actually ends up being the case. Yeah, but, like, don't worry. Nobody saw that.
- [37:57]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, man. So how do you end up navigating different relationships, friendships, business relationships, love, community, while protecting these boundaries?
- [38:09]
Roxane Gay
Oh, a lot of therapy, man.
- [38:13]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
This is my wheelhouse. I do love therapy. Therapy.
- [38:17]
Roxane Gay
I honestly, it takes a lot of work because I'm a people pleaser, because I'm terrible at saying no. And also, it did take marrying someone who does not have a single problem saying no, who is very protective and has helped me in ways I could have never imagined, to develop stronger boundaries where sometimes she's like, no, you're not doing that. And it's not in a way that's controlling. I always recognize when it's when she does that that she has my best interest at heart because she always asks me, do you want to do that or do you feel obligated to? And really pausing and asking myself those questions helps. But I also feel like I'm a fairly kind person and a fairly generous person, and I'm actually not trying to change that. And so I just tried to recognize that being kind and generous does not mean that people get to take advantage of you, and it doesn't mean that you are unkind or ungenerous by telling people no sometimes. And that's the thing that I really work to try and remind. And it's an ongoing process, but that's the thing I really have to remind myself of. Like, first of all, nobody's going to love you or really care about you because you give them what they want. They're just going to recognize that they can get more. And so I. And that for me has been very eye opening and very sad to realize. And like, when I look at my younger self and the ways in which I have allowed myself to be used and taken advantage of, like, it. I feel a lot of shame around it because, like, girl, what were you doing? Like, you're not gonna find love there. And, and you're not gonna find respect or, or caring there. People are not gonna be like, suddenly grateful because you help them out. And like, what are you really trying to get? Like, you're trying to clearly fill some sort of deep emotional need. Like, go fill that elsewhere. And you know, again, it's a work in progress. I'm still, it's still challenging, but I. The older I get, the more I recognize I have every right to say no. I don't have say to say yes to every single request. If I said yes to every single request, I would lose my mind.
- [40:43]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Right. And you deserve to put yourself first. You don't exist in. To serve others.
- [40:49]
Roxane Gay
Yes. And that's so hard for me to internalize, but yes.
- [40:55]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
And. And you know, based off the way you've spoken about your childhood, I can see why. Because you grow up with this idea that like, you're supposed to be perfect and quite literally anything less than perfection is unacceptable. So it can be very hard to break those things within ourselves. But when we get to that place of learning to advocate for ourselves. And I love that your wife is so supportive in this way. It sounds like she's sort of really been that that aspect of your personality that you've needed help with emboldening is like, yes, you. Not only are you allowed to say no, you should say no.
- [41:30]
Roxane Gay
You.
- [41:31]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
There are times that you absolutely should protect yourself and what you want. Or I mean, sometimes it's not even that serious. Sometimes it's just, I don't really want to do this. And so I'm not going to overextend myself. The answer is no.
- [41:43]
Roxane Gay
And that I'm really trying to like, really internalize. Like, why. I sometimes find myself doing like six or seven events in a week, and I just ask myself, why are you running yourself ragged like this? When do you plan on finishing the Very, very late books that you need to finish. This is not going to get that work done. That's like where I am right now, where it's like, girl, if you do one more event this week, like, get your ass to the desk.
- [42:13]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, is someone emailing Roxane Gay looking for another update of a draft maybe?
- [42:19]
Roxane Gay
And she has every right and reason to like the font of patience that my editor, my book editors have. That's how I know, like, I probably do sell some books because, yeah, they are tolerating that nobody else would tolerate. And I feel really bad about it. But I did have some legit reasons to be very delayed with my books. Some very unexpected things happened in my personal life and just completely threw me off my game for years because my whole world changed overnight. And so I have been just trying to get back to some semblance of productivity. And it is, it's, it's, it's a job.
- [43:05]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Yes, yes, it is. And I, I think is very important to remember that when you are at the top of your game, when you are elite at what you do, people have a lot more grace and patience for you. When you maybe don' make deadlines, because they do. You're one of the greats. So they know, they know that when you get to the place where you're ready to be productive in that way and the drafts are coming in and the writing process is, is fully underway, they know that they're going to have an excellent product at the end. So, you know, brand new writers looking to break into the industry can't play around like this. But you have earned that.
- [43:45]
Roxane Gay
Yes. I always tell the younger writers I work with, like, don't, don't, don't, don't write checks that you don't have money in the paper.
- [43:56]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Right.
- [43:58]
Roxane Gay
That deadline does mean something. They do want it and they do.
- [44:03]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
They do.
- [44:04]
Roxane Gay
Yeah, right.
- [44:05]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Don't play yourself.
- [44:06]
Roxane Gay
Yeah. Yes. And it's very interesting to sometimes see the ways in which people can sabotage themselves a bit. And I always really want them to just not, don't do this. It's not necessary. It is not at all. Excuse me? Just don't sabotage yourself. It's okay to just not sabotage yourself.
- [44:38]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Well, you have written very extensively about some deeply, deeply personal matters, especially in relation to being in a larger body. The way that other people treat you, the way that it was a very conscious decision for you as a child to deliberately gain weight in an, in an effort to protect yourself from predators and people who would mean to do you harm. And just the ways that you've been treated because of the size of your body, the ways that fatphobia affect us all as a society. And I. You know, for a while, I thought we were really making progress, and then I don't know if it was the pandemic or what, but now it seems like we are really in a backslide as far as, like, not even body positivity, but just understanding that there are billions of humans who have existed for hundreds of thousands of years, and so there is going to be variation in our bodies. It's almost like that is just an unacceptable reality for so many people. Like, we are all supposed to look one certain way. But anyway, so. So my point being, you've connected with countless people by being so honest and real about fatphobia. Do you feel any sort of responsibility to. And not just fatphobia, but that's the. I'm thinking of that specifically because, like I said, hunger was. I mean, I. I was so profoundly moved by that memoir. So, I mean, it's truly incredible. This is why you can take your time and miss all your deadlines because you've done bad feminists and hunger and so many other things. But, yes, I know that there are countless people who see themselves in you. Do you feel any sort of responsibility to those people? How do you. How do you manage that?
- [46:32]
Roxane Gay
I mean, I feel a responsibility to continue to write well, to write honestly, and to do the best I can at the time with the skills that I have. And I totally understand that people have emotional connections to my work, and I do feel a responsibility to make sure that, you know, I act with integrity. But I also recognize that just because someone has an emotional connection to my work does not mean that I know them or that they know me.
- [47:05]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Right.
- [47:06]
Roxane Gay
And unfortunately, with memoir, not unfortunately, but one of the challenges of memoir is that people do think that they know you and, like, they want to be your best friend. And I'm like, I'm a terrible communicator. I don't know that you want to be my best friend.
- [47:21]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
I will never text you back, like, aim higher.
- [47:27]
Roxane Gay
And so I don't especially. I used to. But I'm getting better about it. I don't feel like I have to. You know, they feel a bond because they've read the book. But when people come up to me, I don't know you at all. And so what I do. And I love meeting my readers. They're such lovely and, in general, warm and generous people. I am absolutely open to it. I run into people, I get recognized Every time I leave my house, which is weird as a writer, it's not supposed to happen, but it does. And I think it's partly because I'm tall, I'm fat, I have tattoos, I'm easily recognizable in a way where you're not going to necessarily be like, ooh, Jonathan Franzen. Hi. So not to, not to say I'm on his level, but that's just the sort of writer looking guy that I can imagine that you wouldn't necessarily be able to pick out of a crowd if he wasn't wearing his glasses. And so I, I always try to be present when I can. You know, sometimes I'm just like, oh, you know, my wife and I are on a date. So, like, it's really nice to meet you, but I, like, I can't talk for an hour here.
- [48:37]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, yeah.
- [48:38]
Roxane Gay
Just try to have boundaries. But I always try to be receptive, polite. But, you know, that's when you write about, for example, sexual assault, people tend to want to tell you about their own. And, oh, yes, I respect that for sure, but I can't hear that all the time. Like, especially if I'm like, out and about and having fun and someone wants to be like, I, I've been through with what you've been through, and then proceed to give me all the gory details. That's a lot. And, you know, it's important to always clarify. Like, I'm a writer. I'm not a therapist. I'm not your therapist.
- [49:20]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Yes.
- [49:21]
Roxane Gay
And because you can do real harm, there are people who do harm, who do take advantage of the vulnerabilities that people are willing to share with them. I'm not putting myself in that position, but more importantly, I'm not putting them in that position. I hear that you have this emotional need. I hear why you feel connected to me, and I honor that. But I also know that I can't heal whatever wound that needs healing. So I always try to point people in the right direction if they really do seem to need help. And I always try to listen. And then I'm also try to be very clear that, okay, this, this is great, and there's someone waiting behind you.
- [50:11]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
And so, yes, this is a book signing event.
- [50:17]
Roxane Gay
I have the most wonderful readers. I have to say, I don't really run into a lot of emotional vampirism. You know, I, I do encounter quite a lot of enthusiasm that I find very flattering and very charming. People bring me, like, little gifts sometimes, which is absolutely not necessary. They give me their book, which I don't mind. I can't promise I'm going to get to it, but I don't mind. I do recognize the kindness of that, and so there's a lot of responsibility and pressure there. But I'm fortunate enough to have really great readers who also, I think, most of the time have read the books and so have a some sense of what the boundaries are. Like, no, I don't want hugs. Even though people do love to test that. Can I get a hug? Did you not read the chapter right. About no hugging? Right. I used to, like, struggle to say no, but now I'm very good at it. And, like, I shake hands, which is a really good response to that. I do shake hands. Yeah. Like, let's shake it up.
- [51:27]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Yeah. That's very generous. Because since 2020, I'm like, I feel like, no touching. Share.
- [51:34]
Roxane Gay
Let's just share.
- [51:35]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
So many germs.
- [51:38]
Roxane Gay
It's a lot. It is a germ minefield out there, especially when someone's, like, hacking up a lung. And I always just think, oh, you'll be like, bless your heart, dear, but it makes me feel 100 years old. But let's work on it, shall we?
- [51:52]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Right.
- [51:53]
Roxane Gay
Get thee to thy bed.
- [51:56]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
I experience some of that same emotional vampirism. I love that phrase because I started being very forthcoming about my journey in therapy and some of the things I had to learn growing up with two emotionally immature parents whose emotional immaturity manifested in different ways through their parenting or lack thereof. And so being open about that is kind of rare. I think it's becoming more popular, but talking about it freely on a large platform has really opened up. And then going to grad school and being a student therapist. So there was, like, a time that I literally was somebody's therapist and helping them work through these things and then graduating, it was like, what am I going to do with all this? Because it was a great concern that I would be recognized in my internship because I worked almost exclusively with black women. And so I knew I didn't want to go into private practice. But I also knew that, like, what I had learned in school and in therapy was something that could benefit so many other people. And also, people were constantly coming to me with, like, their trauma, their issues with their parents, like, oh, my dad's an asshole, too, and my mom did this and that. And so that's sort of where the idea for this show came from, which was like, let me find a way to help people with the things I know while still drawing a very clear boundary. Of, like, I am not a therapist. I'm not your therapist. I have this degree, and so I can listen to your story and give you some advice, but with the protections of these cameras, these microphones, you know, there's no expectation of, like, an ongoing relationship between us. And everybody's very clear about what this really is. Like, this is ultimately a podcast. This is not, you know, a therapy center. But trying to find that balance in all these different ways has been. It's been a challenge, but one that I have embraced because it does feel like, you know, it's when I'm at a party and I've had three vodka sodas, is that is really not the time to come up to me and say, my mother was also emotionally neglectful? Like, babe, you know, I'm trying to party right now, but I do want to create that space where we can talk about it, because people are hurting, people are in need, and therapy is not accessible to everyone.
- [54:37]
Roxane Gay
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- [55:00]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
I saw you posted on threads that you are paying an exorbitant amount of money to see your therapist per hour. And I am, too. Not as much as you are, but I'm paying a lot to see my therapist. She does not accept it. Insurance. And so I. I wanted to find a way to, like, bring all these things together, do something to help, but also still maintain my. My privacy and my ability to just be a person who exists in the world.
- [55:26]
Roxane Gay
Yeah. You know, therapy is probably my biggest expense other than my mortgage. Yeah. But I do get reimbursement from insurance.
- [55:35]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, nice.
- [55:36]
Roxane Gay
For, like, 85 of it.
- [55:40]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, nice.
- [55:41]
Roxane Gay
So. But fighting. It's a fight. Like, it's a fight. It's just.
- [55:46]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, yeah.
- [55:46]
Roxane Gay
You know, I find what my insurance is prices are. I want my. My therapist prices are eye watering. When she told me her price, I was just like,
- [56:06]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
All right. She's on your burger, girl. I know. That's right.
- [56:08]
Roxane Gay
But it's the first time I've had a woman of color as a therapist.
- [56:12]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, okay.
- [56:13]
Roxane Gay
I've always had white therapists before. Not by choice, just by. I guess it is a choice in a Sense. But I also was living in, like, very rural places, et cetera. This was largely before telehealth. And so she's not black, but she is a woman of color. And I would love a black therapist. But I am going to ride it out with my current therapist for now because for the first time, and I've been in therapy off and on Since I was 14 or 15, I feel like I'm making progress. She's very matter of fact. Also, I play a little game with myself, like, can I make her laugh? If I make her laugh, I win therapy for the day, which is always nice. And so I, I, I, you know, she's in great demand. She charges what she charges. You know, she's a Manhattan therapist. The prices in Manhattan are extra. They just. Big city prices are, are real. They're real. And I mean, you can also find therapists for like 150 an hour, a hundred dollars an hour. And I think they're just as good. There's not. I don't think price is a commensurate with ability. I think everyone prices themselves as they see fit. And she's more established, et cetera, et cetera. It doesn't matter. I don't care about her pricing because I can afford it. And I don't take that for granted. But I do know that that one hour a week allows me to unpack my bullshit with someone who is willing to push back. You know, oftentimes when you have, when you're. I'm never smarter than a therapist, but sometimes when you're smart, you know how to, like, talk in therapy where you're not really getting at anything useful or important. This is the first time I've been able to get pushback from my nonsense and my sort of rationalizing where I'm actually feeling like I'm doing real work. I would pay twice what I'm paying for that.
- [58:18]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
That is a marker of a very skilled therapist who, like, she's very.
- [58:22]
Roxane Gay
She'll just like, look over her little cup of tea or coffee that she's drinking because we generally meet over zoom. And she'll just be like. And I'm like, see, this is why you gotta be with a person of color. This right here. This right here.
- [58:44]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, my goodness. Does she know about your little game to try to make her laugh? No.
- [58:52]
Roxane Gay
She might.
- [58:53]
Commercial Voiceover
Now,
- [58:56]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
I was gonna say, because that does sound like a people.
- [58:59]
Roxane Gay
Like, I can see her snickering or laughing, and I'm like, yes. All right, we can wrap this up.
- [59:05]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
I did a type 5 oh, nice. Yes, that. That does sound like classic people pleaser behaviors.
- [59:12]
Roxane Gay
So, yeah, it all.
- [59:13]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
It all tracks.
- [59:15]
Roxane Gay
Thank you.
- [59:15]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Thank you. Thank you, Dr. K. No worries. Dr. K. Have there been moments where you wish that you kept something for yourself that you shared with the whole world? You're like, oh, God, in hindsight, why did I do that?
- [59:31]
Roxane Gay
No, I've. I am terrible at boundaries in my real life, but not my real life, but my, like, day to day life. But in my career, at least in this sort of iteration of it, in the past 15 years, the one thing I'm very proud of is that I have not said anything public. Oh, you know what? There is one thing I did, but it was on Twitter, so it doesn't matter.
- [59:56]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, yeah, that side's dead.
- [59:58]
Roxane Gay
Yeah. But it wasn't even about me. It was a joke that I made. I made a few dumb jokes that people with bad intentions then ran with and memed for years. Oh. And so, like, I regret those sort of like, ha, ha, I'm just making a joke things. Like, I made a joke. I had taken my niece to McDonald's, which was my first mistake to say out loud, but, sorry, kids like Happy Meals and she's tiny. It's fine, right? Gymnast. It's gonna be okay. And she wanted some little toy that they were doing, and a young person at the drive through said something like, thank you, ma', am, or whatever. And I moved on and finished. But on Twitter, I made a joke about how I then proceeded to tell the young McDonald's employee about how gender is a cop construct.
- [61:01]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, my goodness.
- [61:03]
Roxane Gay
It was fun, maybe, but they were like, this is why fast food people aren't being paid enough. You're classist, you're elitist. And it has gone on for years. Like, this has been going on now for about 14 years from this one. And it was a joke. Like, guys, do you really think that. I think that I'm going to, like, have a meaningful conversation with someone who's just trying to get through their eight hour shift.
- [61:31]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Right.
- [61:32]
Roxane Gay
Probably the unhappiest place on earth. Like the fact that people never give you the benefit of the doubt.
- [61:38]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Yes.
- [61:39]
Roxane Gay
Always assume the worst. Yes. So I, after I. That was humbling. And like, it's like, yes. I hear all the feedback, I hear the criticism, but, like, I really. This was a joke. It really, really was a joke. Come on. And so that is something that I can't even believe. I still think about it, but the level of harassment I got for it was so profound that I was Just like, that was a mistake. That was a mistake still, Right.
- [62:08]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
My first thought is that, you know, fat people are never allowed to even mention the fact that McDonald's exists.
- [62:13]
Roxane Gay
That was the other thing. So I thought that you go to McDonald's. And the thing is, I actually, I enjoy food, but I don't actually eat fast food. And it's not like a moral thing or anything. But like, in New York you don't need to like, I'm sorry, bro, but chirping chicken is right there. Like, like, I don't. Where would, I mean, you'd have to go to like Times Square. Like, no, this is not happening. And even in la, it's just. No, there's tacos everywhere. I'm good. And so it made me ex, like, it just made me feel so vulnerable and so like, oh my God. I didn't. For a moment I forgot that I'm a big fat person. Right? How dare I talk about food? And I was like, I wasn't even there for me. I was coming with a four piece chicken nugget.
- [63:03]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Jesus Christ. Oh, my goodness. Yes. It's like, I live in New York. My version of fast food is halal papi. And you know, like, I can go to the bodega and get something on a hero before I, you know, listen,
- [63:17]
Roxane Gay
the bodega is literally 30 yards away and we, the bodega around the corner is actually really cute and you can get whatever. They have a hot cold counter that is just really pristine. So. Yeah, it's fine. Yeah, come on.
- [63:39]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
I, I, I, that's sort of, you know, feeling like there's, you're never. Or that you're rarely extended the benefit of the doubt that people are always assuming the. I find that to be a key tenet of my experience with social media. And of course, through my education and my, my work in therapy, I've been able to tie that back to childhood. Like so many other things where it was like, yeah, I was, it was always assumed that I was wrong somehow or like, let's figure out what you did wrong. Let's, let's examine how you could have done things differently before we can move on or do discuss how maybe people are overreacting or doing too much. Like, do you find that there's any sort of loneliness associated with that, that feeling or that experience?
- [64:27]
Roxane Gay
There's a lot of loneliness there because I first started going on social media because I was living in very rural places and I was kind of like the only black person at my institution or in my Department, both as a graduate student and as a faculty member. And that is incredibly isolating. Even though I'm from Omaha, Nebraska, and I've never, until my now, living in LA and New York, this is the first time in my life, especially in la, where I see black people every day. And that's sad to say, but it's also, like, for me, it's a joy, like, every day. And you see black people from every walk of life and every milieu, and that, to me, is like, joy. Just like I see people who look like me. We're not all the same. We don't need to all love each other, but we get to be in community. And in LA in particular, it is so vibrant. And so just like driving through Inglewood on a beautiful day with the windows down, like, you see everything, I find it to be just a kick. And so I was kind of looking for that when I was on social media, looking for connection. And as a writer, I was even further isolated. And at the time, I was significantly larger, so I felt a little more physically isolated. And so being online allowed me to have the sense of socializing and, like, being part of the world without being part of the world. And so in many ways, I still, when I go online, I think of myself as that girl who had 200 followers and was just, like, talking about yogurt all day.
- [66:15]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Right.
- [66:16]
Roxane Gay
You know, and. And my wife often has to tell me, like, roxanne, you have hundreds of thousands of followers now. Like, you're not the. It's not.
- [66:24]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
You're very famous.
- [66:25]
Roxane Gay
Yeah. You have to, like, disassociate that. And. And so that has been the biggest, hardest transition, is recognizing it's not the same. Even though I oftentimes still interact online the same as I always did, a little sharp at times, a little punchy, but in general, just sort of like, wow, life is kind of amazing. Look at that flower. And to never be given the benefit of the doubt is hard because I was never given the benefit of the doubt.
- [66:56]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Right.
- [66:56]
Roxane Gay
And so, yeah, it's very lonely. It's very lonely. And if, you know, when Twitter started decompensating and I found that my mental health was being profoundly affected, Debbie was just like, you are spending way too much time on social media. And I was like, no, I'm not. She was right, of course. Then I just realized, why am I on Twitter? It makes me unhappy. People are so mean to me on this platform. Every mistake I've ever made, they sent me a screenshot. And it just made me so Unhappy. So I just deleted. Not I left the account up, but I deleted all my tweets. I just quit Twitter. I've never looked back. It was the best decision I ever made in terms of how I put myself out in the world because it's just too toxic. And so now I have a more of a remove. I'm still very much online, but I'm not as accessible. I'm certainly not spending nearly as much time online. And it is helpful to just realize, like, there's a whole world out there. And also, you could just read a book. All that time spent on social media is reading. But you could read a book.
- [68:12]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Yes.
- [68:13]
Roxane Gay
And the book isn't going to talk back.
- [68:15]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Yes. And, you know, I think there's a big difference in Twitter. Before it was sold to who owns it now and how it is now. For me, I. First of all, if you want the Twitter experience, there's Blue sky, there's threads, there's spill. You know, you can get a Twitter like experience.
- [68:33]
Roxane Gay
Oh, absolutely. I'm on Blue sky, which I enjoy. And I'm on. I've been on threads, but I've been actively posting on threads now for a couple months. Threads is interesting.
- [68:46]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Well, you know, it's Instagram's Twitter, so it's meta's Twitter, so take that with a giant grain of salt. But for me, I really felt like if I can just use the words that accurately represent how I feel and I communicate clearly and I make sure that I'm making an effort to do that, then surely people will read the words as I've written them and they won't filter them through their own experiences and judgments and whatever else, they'll take it as it is because I'm making the effort to communicate clearly. And I tried that maybe for a couple of years, and it was so frustrating to me. Every time I would articulate something exactly the way I meant it and people would still misunderstand it, it enraged me. It was like, I don't understand. How can I get you all to stop behaving this way? And eventually I realized, like, oh, you can do this for the rest of your life and still people are going to take what you say and. And do with it whatever they want. And so are you going to keep putting that effort into it, or are you going to accept the fact that this is how it is and change the way you engage online? So that was what really shifted my relationship. I too, spend much less time online than I used to, but it was like, this is. I'm I'm. I'm snapping at people for something that is always going to happen, and I just don't want to keep doing this.
- [70:18]
Roxane Gay
That was one of the key things that pushed me off Twitter. I realized that I. And I wrote about it a little bit in an essay, you know, like, seeing everything as a nail and being a hammer. Like, even people who were actually engaging with me with good intentions and in good faith, I was being unkind, and I didn't like how mean I was becoming and how brittle I was becoming. And anyone who knows me in my day to day life knows I'm just not mean. And so I just had to ask myself, like, is this how you want people to know you? Is this how you want to know yourself? Because it doesn't. I mean, clap back. Clapping back is fun.
- [71:00]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Yes.
- [71:00]
Roxane Gay
And. But not everyone deserves it. Right? Some people are just either clueless or they're not nearly as online as you, or they didn't realize that you had been dealing with nonsense all day, and they stepped on the wrong nerve.
- [71:15]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Right?
- [71:15]
Roxane Gay
And so I wanted people to engage with me in good faith, but I also realized I'm not engaging with anyone in good faith either. It goes both ways. And I was gonna change faster than the Internet. It's gonna change.
- [71:31]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Yes. Oh, my God, yes.
- [71:33]
Roxane Gay
And that's saying something, because it takes me a minute to change. But I had to understand that they were. I was never gonna get what I wanted from these people, which is to, like, be truly understood, to be listened to, to have them, like, sort of set aside preconceived notions and, like, actually engage with what I'm actually saying. And rather than like, some weird perceptions, etc. Etc. And Debbie, again, was like, they're not your friends. You have real life friends. Why don't you reach out to Jackie? Why don't you reach out to, you know, Alexandra, etc? And
- [72:11]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
she.
- [72:12]
Roxane Gay
She, you know, she had to really help me. See, and I guess it takes someone who's with you day in and day out and understands you. Like, you know, you say you're lonely, but, like, you're lonely because you don't ever talk to anyone in your real life. You're just, like, sitting here typing into your phone. And I was, like, rude,
- [72:32]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
but you're right. Right? It's the sort of thing where you don't realize, you know, turning to social media to fix loneliness is like eating Skittles and cotton candy because you're starving. This is maybe going to, in the immediate, take care of what you think the issue is, but your longer term problem is going to actually be made worse by this decision.
- [72:58]
Roxane Gay
It absolutely is. And, and I'm still actually dealing with that. I'm still trying to figure that part out and, and recognizing, you know, because I, I love my friends and I love hanging out with people, but I have this and I, this is like one of the top five things I work on in therapy. I am afraid to reach out to people to say, hey, do you want to hang out? Because I don't want to bother them. And so I always just figure if someone wants to hang out with me, then they'll reach out. And so then the complaint, not the complaint, but I know that the frustration for my friends is like, it's all one sided. But the minute they reach out, like, I'm right there like a little puppy, like, yeah, let's go. What are we going to do? And so I, one of the things I've been working on over the past few months is trying to like, reach out. Debbie will be like, why don't you reach out to Kirsten and see if she wants to do something with you? Like, it's like, why am I 51 and just now learning how to like have friends? But you know, we get to the, we get to it when we get to it. No shade and no shame. But you know, that, that for me is challenging. So like, a lot of my friends think like, oh, she never reaches out. And it's like, that's not it, that's not it. I just have this like paralyzing fear, I guess, of rejection ultimately. But it's rough. And so like on social media at least, there's just a hundred thousand strangers just sitting around waiting to shoot the shit.
- [74:28]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh yeah, can't wait to hear from you specifically. They just can't wait. They want to hear what you have to say. But yes, I agree, it sounds like a deep fear of being rejected coupled with our very human need for connection. And so you can really end up in a place that's very isolating and lonely when those two things are, are kind of butting heads with one another. Okay, I don't want to take up too much more of your time. This has been such an incredible conversation with you. You said that your next book is coming out next year, 2027. Allegedly. Maybe.
- [75:04]
Roxane Gay
Allegedly. Allegedly. I have two books coming out next year.
- [75:09]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, okay. Can you tell us a little about those?
- [75:12]
Roxane Gay
Yes. One is called how to Be Heard. It's coming out from Harper. It's a book of writing advice and it's partly amazing. Yeah, I'm excited about it. It's like mostly practical writing advice because one of the key things I remember when I was starting out as a writer is that I would always just like either go to the library to do research because I'm 51, or I. When Google came around, I would Google, like, how do I write a book review? And there were rarely any answers. And so I want to write a book that answers a lot of the questions I had in earlier in my writing career. Because, like, they're the animals of the world who I love. I'm not that person who's gonna like write some deep, profound, like, meditation about art and writing and like this stuff. I'm just like, I'm gonna just tell you how to do it. And then also it's in part some of that more philosophical approach about how to use your voice, how to be heard, how to put yourself into the world. And so I have to finish that up Kind of like this week.
- [76:21]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Kind of like this week. Incredible. This week, last week, last year.
- [76:26]
Roxane Gay
And then another book that should come out next year is a romance novel that I am writing with a little known actor named Channing Tatum. And I'm screaming,
- [76:45]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
what?
- [76:46]
Roxane Gay
Ridiculous. Yes. Yes. It. It. Yeah, it's a long story. It's a project that's been gestating for many years. Again, my brother died in 2018. It was very unexpected. It was very unexpected and it completely blew up our family. Not blew up because we all actually got much closer, but in the immediate. He had two children. Oh, yes. And so, like, there were just things that had to be handled and it just blew up our life. And at the time, my mom had cancer. It's been a really bad time. And so. And then my mom having cancer and then she died last year. And so for five years I was dealing with all of this and my family. Fortunately, I wasn't like the only one. We were all in it together, helping each other, being there for my mom and my dad. And so frankly, writing was absolutely not even secondary, but tertiary. It was just like, yes, this matters. This is how I make a living. But like, my mom is on the clock, Joel's gone, the kids need things. So that became the focus. And so now I'm finally coming up for air and able to somewhat think again. Also, menopause. Don't recommend it. And so I'm writing this fun, sexy romance novel with my little crush with Channing Tatum.
- [78:22]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
I mean, my first thought is like a Magic Mike romance. This is probably unfair. Box to put Channing Tatum in. But that was my very first thought. Like, what are we doing here? I cannot wait to see how this down to you.
- [78:35]
Roxane Gay
And it's about two lifelong friends, or adult lifelong since College, who turn 40 and realize they had made a pact early in their 20s about, if we're still single when we're 40, let's get married. But they actually do, and then they fall in love. Oh, yeah. Because you always see people who make the pack, but then they meet the one true one. Right. Actually follow through on the pact. Okay. Like, there's a lot of sex in it.
- [79:04]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, amazing.
- [79:06]
Roxane Gay
It's a tough gig.
- [79:09]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
I have to write about sex with Channing Tatum. The burdens on my life.
- [79:16]
Roxane Gay
Goodness, he smells like a pine forest.
- [79:20]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Of course he does. Of course he does. He's. Well, of course I don't know him, but he seems very charming and very easy to look at.
- [79:29]
Roxane Gay
So this sounds like very kind, I have to say.
- [79:33]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, I love that.
- [79:34]
Roxane Gay
In my experience, I, you know, we're not like best friends or anything, but we get along quite well. And with me, anyway, he has been incredibly generous and kind and charming. So either he's just that good of an actor or he's a really.
- [79:50]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
He's that person.
- [79:51]
Roxane Gay
Yeah, he really is a great person.
- [79:54]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, my goodness. Well, I eagerly anticipate those releases, I'm sure, because I see you most commonly responding to writers and people who are aspiring for writing careers. I am sure that this book with the practical writing advice is going to be hotly anticipated by the masses. So congratulations. Of course. You know, I just. I feel the need to remind you that you are the Roxane Gay.
- [80:22]
Roxane Gay
I needed that reminder. Thank you.
- [80:24]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Yes. So, yes, the people are very much looking Forward to them. Dr. Gay, thank you so much for sharing your time with me today. Can you please tell the audience where they can. Where they can find you as if they do not already know?
- [80:39]
Roxane Gay
Oh, well, I have a website, Roxanne, with1n roxanegay.com and I'm on Blue sky as Roxane Gay. And I'm on Instagram slash threads as Roxane Gay 74. And in the next couple months, a film version of Hunger will be on your television on Lifetime. So keep an eye out.
- [81:07]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Oh, Kay. I will be clearing my calendar. I told you, Hunger is that girl for me. Like, one of my top books of all time, so. Oh, wow. I can't. Sorry, I'm losing it a little bit here because I cannot wait to see that. Oh, my Goodness. Such a powerful work. I'm. I'm eager to see how that has been translated for a film.
- [81:31]
Roxane Gay
Yeah, me too. No, I'm not gonna say me too. I wrote it, so. I know. I thought, I've seen the final cut.
- [81:38]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
You're like, no, it's good. It's good. Don't worry. It's okay.
- [81:40]
Roxane Gay
I mean, it was. It's a challenging book to adapt and, you know, yes, Lifetime or Slash. A TV movie has nine acts because you have to create space for the commercials.
- [81:52]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Right.
- [81:53]
Roxane Gay
And so figuring out how to divide the story into nine acts but make it feel like all part of the same story was much more challenging than I would have guessed. But I did the best I could with the skills I had at the time.
- [82:07]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
And your best and your skills are phenomenal. So thank you, Crystal. We will.
- [82:12]
Roxane Gay
It's been a pleasure.
- [82:14]
Crystal (Podcast Host)
Thank you again. That is going to wrap up this week's episode of Crystal's Couch. Follow us online at Crystal's Couch. And if you have a question for me, please send me an email. Advicerystlescouch.com we'll see you next week.
- [82:28]
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