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- [00:01]
Podcast Sponsor Announcer
This episode is brought to you by Prime Obsession is in session and this summer Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice off campus Elle every year after the Love Hypothesis, Sterling Point and more slow burns, second chances chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting.
- [00:28]
Crystal
Watch only on Prime Focus features in Blumhouse Obsession.
- [00:33]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
When I have a crush on a
- [00:34]
Crystal
guy no one knows, be careful. I wish Nikki loved me more than anyone in the entire world. Who you wish for obsession is 96% fresh on rotten Tomatoes. I love you so so so so much. It's blood soaked nightmare fuel.
- [00:51]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Brooke Hunger spills. You put on her.
- [00:53]
Crystal
You have been warned. Obsession. Rated R under 17 animated without parent only theaters May 15 with special engagements in Dolby.
- [01:02]
Podcast Sponsor Announcer
Ready to soundtrack your summer with Red Bull Summer All Day Play. You choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end dj, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull Summer All Day Play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit red bull.com brightsummerahead to learn more. See you this summer.
- [01:29]
Crystal
Hi and welcome to Crystal's Caps, the show where I answer your letters for advice and talk to the most interesting people in the world. Today we're welcoming back someone who truly embodies the spirit of this show, Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford. She is a licensed psychologist, speaker and the founder of Therapy for Black Girls, a platform that has become a trusted resource for Black women navigating mental health, healing and self understanding. Through her work, she's helped normalize therapy, expand access and create language for so many experiences that we struggled to name or didn't even know were real. She's also the host of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast where she continues to have thoughtful conversations about absolutely everything from relationships to boundaries to emotional wellness. Therapy for Black Girls is where I found my therapist and the last time Dr. Joy was here, the conversation resonated deeply with so many of you and today feels especially full circle to have her back as we join in together to take a live call. So whether you're new to her work or if you're already part of the community she's built, I am so excited to welcome her back to the show. Thank you Dr. Joy for rejoining me on the couch. Of course.
- [02:37]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Thank you for having me back.
- [02:38]
Crystal
How do you feel about taking a live call with me today? I'm excited about it's funny. I am, too. We're going to see. Now, we are still going to get to a couple of your letters, but I wanted to see how Dr. Joy was like, you want to do this? Let's see how this goes. So, Dr. Joy, when you think about the kind of conversations we're about to have, both in the letters and with the callers, what do you think people are needing the most? And you, of course, you know, interact with listeners who have all kinds of things going on. Do you think it's clarity, validation, accountability? What are the people needing the most that you've been seeing?
- [03:14]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Ooh, that's a good question. I think validation and support right now feels like. I mean, it just feels like there's so much going on right now, you know, just in the world, and then we all have our own personal stuff happening.
- [03:26]
Crystal
Right.
- [03:26]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
And so I think a lot of support in, like, figuring out how to prioritize and manage. Okay, what do I even tend to first?
- [03:31]
Crystal
Yes.
- [03:32]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Is a lot of what I've been seeing.
- [03:33]
Crystal
So the validation for me feels like a tricky one because it's like, where's the line between I need somebody else to make this real, real, or okay for me versus I can do that for myself? It's like, we need some of it from the outside to a certain extent, but when we depend on it, that's when it can become a problem.
- [03:53]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yeah. Yeah. I think it does cross the line when it feels like you can't make any decisions without, like, somebody else saying, like, yes, that's a good idea. But it's a skill, just like anything else we learn. Right. And so I think it's okay to need that at first, but eventually your voice has to be the loudest.
- [04:07]
Crystal
Yes. And the goal is for you to build that up so you're able to
- [04:09]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
give it to your Right.
- [04:10]
Crystal
This is why she's the licensed psychologist, y'. All. All right, let's talk to Susan. Hi, Susan. Welcome to the show.
- [04:20]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Hi. How are you?
- [04:22]
Crystal
I'm good, thank you. Thank you for calling in the Chrysalis couch.
- [04:27]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Thank you for having me.
- [04:29]
Crystal
Of course. What's going on?
- [04:31]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Okay. So I'm 33 years old, and my whole life, I've been extremely avoidant when it comes to romantic relationship. Before meeting my husband, I never made it past the honeymoon stage. Like, I would end things before the novelty wore off or things got too hard. And so six years ago, when my husband and I got together, it immediately felt different. Our chemistry was insane, and it was the pandemic I was making a lot of lifestyle changes and prioritizing my mental health, and our relationship moved really quickly. We said I love you after a week and then moved in together. After three months and two years in, I found myself engaged in buying a house, which were two things I'd really never seen for myself before. So from the beginning, we've had two major issues. The first one is our communication is very challenging for both of us, and it created a lot of conflict in, like, pretty much since the beginning. And then the second issue is that I've been unsure about having kids or, like, when I would want to have them. And he's been a thousand percent sure he wants kids, like, his entire life and wants them as soon as possible. So we've had tons of conversations about both of these issues. We did weekly therapy for seven months, and we really never made any progress or, like, saw much of a change in the relationship. And so for four years now, like, since we got married, I've been in this, like, cycle of indecisiveness where when things are going really badly and, like, every interaction feels strained, I start planning my escape, the avoidance. And then when things are going well, or, like, we'll go through a phase where things feel a lot easier, and I'll start to think, like, okay, maybe we can make this work. Maybe I do want kids. So my question is, is my gut telling me to end our marriage because it's what is best for me, or is it telling me to end things because I'm avoidant and my default is to run away when things get hard?
- [07:09]
Crystal
Well, I don't think I can answer why you're feeling these things necessarily, but I do think it's interesting that you said you found yourself being engaged and buying a home and, you know, this sort of thing, as opposed to, we sat down, talked about it, made a decision to do this, almost like you stumbled into being married as opposed to consciously choosing to establish that kind of partnership. Does that sound accurate or no?
- [07:43]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Yeah, I would say definitely. Like, the. The buying the house was more his dream. Like, I'd never really wanted to own a house. And then with the pressure of, like, him wanting to have kids, I sort of thought that, like, getting married and having the relationship be more serious would, like, motivate or, like, make me feel more secure, I guess.
- [08:13]
Crystal
Okay, but you haven't really seen that come to fruition. It sounds like things are still kind of up and down.
- [08:20]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Yeah, I did reach a point about a year and a half or two years ago where I Was like, okay, I'm ready, and I got pregnant, and I did have, like, two pregnancies and two miscarriages, so. And now I'm back to the space where I'm like, I just don't know if I ever want kids again.
- [08:39]
Crystal
Yeah. Which is very fair. I mean, miscarrying even once is. Can be very traumatic. So going through that multiple times is definitely something that puts a lot of women in a space of, like, maybe I don't want to risk that again, you know, for physical and emotional reasons. Hmm. Dr. Joy, do you have any questions for Susan?
- [09:01]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yeah, I'm curious. Susan, what do you feel like was not effective about the therapy? Like, why do you feel like there was never any progress made?
- [09:11]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
I guess I just wasn't. Like, I was bringing a lot of issues and, like, things that I wanted to see be different, and then he would never really tell me, like, any issues that he had with our relationship. And I felt like things would get better temporarily, but then they would sort of. We would just go back to our default.
- [09:37]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Okay, okay, got it, Got it.
- [09:40]
Crystal
What do things look like when the two of you don't agree? Do you disagree with each other?
- [09:51]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
That's a good question. When we don't agree, I. We usually we can talk about things, but I think I. I tend to kind of compromise, and we kind of tend to, like, even if we don't reach a resolution, we kind of just, like, move on. Yeah.
- [10:19]
Crystal
Kind of sounds like sweeping things under the rug. And you just go along with it so that you're not arguing anymore?
- [10:25]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Yeah. Yeah, sort of. Like, we. I just. We neither of us have the energy to continue arguing.
- [10:35]
Crystal
And has your husband been able to bring up issues that he has. I know you said in therapy he wasn't really doing that, but has he been doing that outside of therapy? Like, is he able to talk to you now about what he's really feeling?
- [10:47]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
A little bit. A little bit. He'll tell me in private, but then in therapy, he's like, no, everything's great. You're my person. I have no issues. But then, like, when I bring up, like, when I sit down and I'm like, okay, we have these serious communication issues. It's like, well, you. You don't communicate well either type of thing, like, defensiveness. But, yeah, I feel like for him, he's just. His only issue is that, like, I. I'm not ready to have kids right now. Like, if. If I were to concede on that or, like, decide that I was ready, he. He. It's like, that's all that seems to really matter to him.
- [11:44]
Crystal
Well, I can understand being hesitant to bring children into a relationship where things don't feel stable or healthy anyway, so I think your reticence here is really understandable. Can I ask how old you two are?
- [11:59]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Yes, I'm 33, and he's 43.
- [12:04]
Crystal
Interesting. And you've been together for six years?
- [12:08]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Yes.
- [12:08]
Crystal
Okay.
- [12:09]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Hmm.
- [12:11]
Crystal
Well, that also adds another layer here for me. I'm thinking I'm having some trouble coming up with reasons why y' all should stay together. Honestly, not to just blurt it out like that, but it sounds like the communication here. Here is really struggling and that maybe you don't. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but do you feel safe to. To disagree with your husband and let the disagreement sit there? Like, can. Can you. Can you all just sit with the fact that you're not aligned on something and. And have that conflict just be.
- [12:54]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Yes. But then it's like, I want. I want things to be better. I want, like, some type of improvement or, like, the communication, like, portion for me. He. Like, this is going to sound bad, but he basically talks a lot. I'm very introverted, and, like, I'm an internal processor, and I feel like he monologues or, like, talks at me a lot. And sometimes. Sometimes, like, it's just. It just depends, like, on the situation or even, like, the mood. It seems like, where. Some days I feel like I can bring stuff up, and a lot of days, I. I don't feel like I can do that.
- [13:44]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yeah.
- [13:45]
Crystal
Dr. Joy, what do you think?
- [13:46]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yeah. So, Susan, you said you just want things to be better. What does better look like? Like, if you woke up tomorrow and things were better, what would be different?
- [13:56]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
So he would try to talk, I guess, in a. Like, he would want to talk about things that I'm interested in or that we. We both find interesting instead of just, like, I don't know, soccer and, like, international politics, which, like, those two topics are fine, but, like, it's. Sometimes it feels like that's all he wants to talk about. And when I want to talk about my stuff, it's like he's not interested or, like, he turns it back to himself. So I guess, like, ideally, things looking better would be, like, him being super, like, interested in me or, like, asking me questions, like, about. Like, if I'm sharing a story like that, he would ask me questions or comment on that story instead of just being like, oh, yeah, that happened to me too, in Seventh grade, and just, like, go off talking about whatever again. So, yeah, I guess, like, having conversations that feel engaging and not, like, frustrating and draining and exhausting. And then, like, before we got married, I asked him if. If I was never ready to have kids, like, what would that mean? And he said at the time that he would choose me over. Over having kids. But that's not the case at all. Like, that it's become very obvious that that's not the case. Like, so ideally, he would not be pressuring me to have kids, and we would have a communication, like, conversations that flowed and were pleasant for both of us.
- [15:54]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yeah. Susan, you're. You're not asking for a lot. You know, like, when you say somebody to be interested in me and have engaging conversations, I want you to know that that is not a lot. Like, that's not an unreasonable ask for your partner to be interested in the things that you're interested in, even if it's not really their thing. Like, they're interested because you're interested. So it's okay to have that ask. And I'm struggling with this idea of the kids kind of being this thing that feels like a deal breaker, because unlike a house that if you decide you want to do something different, the house can be sold, that kind of decision cannot be made with kids. And so, you know, I would hate for you to be pressured into a decision which it feels like you have been. Like you've kind of gone along with buying the house and maybe even the getting married, because I don't even know that you saw that for yourself. Right. And so I don't want you to be pressured into having kids if you are not absolutely certain that that is something that you want to do.
- [16:54]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Yeah.
- [16:55]
Crystal
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with Dr. Joy about that one. I. I think that it's hard to see a way forward when he's unwilling to be honest. In therapy, you all have tried it, and he'll say things to you privately that he won't bring up with the therapist. That, to me, is a big red flag, because how are you two supposed to work through the issues if he's not willing to talk about it with the person who's licensed and qualified to help you do just that.
- [17:29]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point.
- [17:34]
Crystal
Yeah. I mean, up to this point, the decisions you've made, like Dr. Joyce said, these are things that can be reversed or undone if that's really what you want to do. And it sounds like maybe you're thinking, well, I'm avoidant. I know how I am. It could just be that I'm scared, and so I'm pushing him away. But as two people who don't know either one of you, I. You're not asking for too much. What you're. What you're looking for in your relationship is. Is absolutely something that should be present in any healthy dynamic between two people. And I agree with your decision to not bring children into the marriage while things still feel so uncertain. I think if your husband isn't willing to give an honest shot at couples counseling and really be completely raw and honest with the therapist with you present, you know, you two going through this process together, I don't see how the marriage can really get to a place where it feels secure enough for you to want to have children.
- [18:37]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Yeah. Yeah. All of that is. Yeah. Very interesting. And I agree. Yeah. Because the therapy. It's like, we would go to therapy, and he'd just be like, yeah, everything's great. And then when I'd be like, okay, but. Except that I am exhausted by every interaction we had this week. And he's like. He's like, well. And, like, even the therapist would be like, well, isn't that. Is that an exaggeration, though? And I was like, I don't know if it's an exaggeration. Like, I feel like it's the case. Like, I feel like, no. Like, I don't. But in the. In the moment, I'm really bad. So about, like, saying what I actually think. So I'll be like, well, maybe. I don't know. Like.
- [19:30]
Crystal
Well, sometimes people do that, don't they, Dr. Joy? Sometimes we say it's always this. It's never that. And we don't quite mean that. Um, so sometimes that is true. But if you walk away feeling like the overwhelming majority of your interactions with your husband leave you feeling drained, that's something important for us to really lock in on and try to try to work through. Yeah.
- [19:53]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Yeah. And then.
- [19:54]
Crystal
So I think, yeah, it doesn't have to be exactly right. You don't have to get the language exactly perfect in order for your point to be made.
- [20:02]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Yeah. And then I guess it's normal, though, to, like, if you. You have, like, a week where it's really bad, and then you've got, like, the next week, it's, like, better. Like, a little bit better to be like, oh, well, maybe, like, everything. Maybe I should just keep trying.
- [20:24]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
I mean, I think that that's normal, but I think, you know, it may be good for you to kind of do Some journaling around, like, how often it is feeling okay and how often it's not, and maybe even like a little tally. Not a, you know, scoreboard, so to speak, but, you know, so. So that you actually have a record of how am I actually feeling on a day to day basis. Because when things are good, it's really easy sometimes for us to like, forget about the. The times that did not feel so good. And so if you can go back to your. Your records, so to speak, it'll help you to be clear about. Okay, what's actually happening here and how often am I feeling okay in this relationship versus not.
- [21:02]
Crystal
Yeah, I agree. And I would, I would hope that six years in, you're having longer periods of things feeling good, and then you hit a rough patch for a couple of weeks, you work through it, and then you go back to something that feels more stable. It sounds like you two are kind of up and down all the time, which is also exhausting.
- [21:22]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Yeah.
- [21:22]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yeah.
- [21:24]
Crystal
Okay, so I hope we've given you some things to think about here. Do you have any other questions for us?
- [21:32]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
No, I think that's helpful.
- [21:38]
Crystal
Okay. Well, anything else you want to share with Susan?
- [21:42]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
I just want to also share. Susan, you commented that sometimes it's hard for you to know kind of how you really feel. And I think even like you, you know, talking with us today is an attempt for you to kind of get some other feedback about, like, is this the right decision for me or not? And ultimately it will have to be your decision. And I think it's important for you to know that it's okay to trust your decision like it's your life. You know you best, you know your relationship best. And so whatever decision you end up making, you can be okay that I trust that this is the best decision for me. Even if other people disagree, you can trust that you are making the best decision for yourself.
- [22:21]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Yeah. How long do you have to, like, feel that it's the right decision to know that? It's like, if I change my mind week to week, I'm like, well, maybe I don't know what it. I don't feel sure.
- [22:34]
Crystal
Well, I think that's where the journaling and the sort of tallying comes into place when you're feeling unsure. You have this data to look at to help you back up whatever decision you want to make or whatever decision you think you may need to make. But even now, in asking the question, it's showing that you're sort of doubting yourself, but you're the architect of your life, and you get to decide what is tolerable and what isn't.
- [23:02]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Yeah.
- [23:05]
Crystal
Okay.
- [23:06]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Yes.
- [23:08]
Crystal
Thank you. Thank you so much for calling into the show. I'm wishing you the best of luck in making your choices and trusting yourself.
- [23:15]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Thank you so much.
- [23:17]
Crystal
Bye.
- [23:18]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Bye.
- [23:19]
Crystal
Bye. You know, Dr. Joy, I think we see this sort of thing pretty frequently with people who are in long term relationships and maybe they've never really investigated what's going on with themselves. And, you know, you, you, you feel these strong feelings for someone, so marriage feels like the next logical step. But then, you know, you're four, five, six years in and you're really starting to wonder, like, do I know what I want to do? And how do I develop that ability to even trust my feelings when I've never done that before? And that could be hard.
- [23:53]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
It is. And again, it's a skill just like anything else. And even if you make a decision and then you realize later, like, oh, that actually wasn't a great decision, you have to trust that you can recover and that you can have support that will not shatter your world to pieces, that you can rebound after a decision that maybe wasn't the right one. You make the best decision you can at the time.
- [24:15]
Crystal
Yes.
- [24:15]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
And it's only. Yes. And it's only sometimes later that you realize, oh, that actually wasn't great. Or maybe it was a good decision then and now it's not. And you can always make a different decision for most things.
- [24:25]
Crystal
Yes.
- [24:26]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Not kids. Not kids. You can't do that.
- [24:28]
Crystal
No, you can't.
- [24:29]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
You can't do that. But for most things, you can always make a different decision.
- [24:32]
Crystal
Right. So, and I'm wondering if, if, if a couple is in couples counseling and one person isn't being honest with the therapist, how can they move forward in that sort of situation? Like, do you see a way forward in therapy? Yes.
- [24:50]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
I don't think so. I mean, maybe with individual, but in couples, you know, like, if you're not being forthcoming that now there is probably a conversation that therapists can have around, hey, it's come to my attention that you're not being honest, like, tell me what's going on. And maybe that opens the door to like, a more honest conversation. But if long term, both people or however many people are involved in the counseling are not committed to being honest, then you, you know, it's not going to yield any effective results.
- [25:17]
Crystal
Right. And, you know, and I, I wonder if a person might hear that and feel even more defensive, like, oh, no, I need to triple down on everything's fine. And I just feel like when people shut down in that way. Yes, I think individual counseling is needed. And if they're not willing to do that, then it's like we're. What? How much more you're reading and it's okay.
- [25:37]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yes, it's okay. I mean, that's a scary thing to go to this stranger and say some stuff that you maybe haven't even admitted to yourself. Oh, that's real, you know, So, I mean, it could be that you're just not ready. And then maybe a little later, after some additional work or other things, you might be ready to actually undertake therapy, but it's not the right choice for everybody at every time.
- [25:57]
Crystal
You're right about that.
- [25:58]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yeah.
- [25:58]
Crystal
Okay. Well, we're wishing Susan the best girl. This episode of Chrysalis Couch is sponsored by BetterHelp. May is mental health awareness month, and I want to remind you that whatever it is you're going through, you don't have to go through it alone. Life is full of ups and downs, and if you're anything like me, you're very, very used to isolating yourself and trying to figure it all out on your own. But the truth is that no human is an island, and we all deserve to have someone who listens, understands, and supports us through life's challenges. It truly can make all the difference. So this month is really a great time to check in with yourself and understand where you are right now. Feeling overwhelmed, stuck, anxious, or unsure is way more common than you think it is. Babe, we've all been there before, and honestly, we'll probably be there again. Okay? There's no need to try to do it all yourself. If you've been feeling this way, regularly meeting with a therapist can help you manage that stress. As someone who's been in therapy for over eight years, I can personally vouch for how life changing the experience has been for me. BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform with over 30,000 fully licensed therapists ready to support your Overall well being. BetterHelp takes some of the guesswork out of finding the right therapist by using a short questionnaire to help identify your specific needs and preferences. But if you're not satisfied, BetterHelp allows you to switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have someone with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com crystal that's betterhelp.com C-R-I S S L E this episode of Crystal's Couch is brought to you by Squarespace. Now, whether you're just starting out or if you're trying to grow your business, Squarespace is that perfect all in one website platform designed to help your business stand out and succeed online. Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer services and get paid all in one place. Now, if you've ever run a business, you know how clutch it is to have everything you need consolidated in one easy to navigate place. From consultations to events and experience experiences. You can showcase your offerings with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. Plus, you can get paid on time with professional on brand invoices and online payments. Plus streamline your workflow with built in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. I've used Squarespace for years for both personal and business websites. I'm actually revamping christmascouch.com right now thanks to Squarespace and their collection of cutting edge design tools. 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I do have a couple letters here if you'd like to help me answer these. All right, this first one comes from Leonard who says, I'm a 30 year old black man living in Nashville and I'm writing about losing my best friend in a way I didn't expect and still don't fully understand. She's a psych NP nurse practitioner. A few months ago she referred me to one of her co workers and I was diagnosed with bipolar 2. It was a lot to process and I cried when we talked about it. And she showed me one of the charts she uses at work to explain mood cycles. I trusted her, not just as a clinician, but also as my best friend. And I let her see that part of me that was still tender and adjusting. About a month ago, we were at a bar with my boyfriend, a mutual friend, and her husband. She got upset because they didn't have the beer she wanted. She brought this frustration to me, and I basically sided with the bartender, like, why would you be upset? Or, why would the bartender lie about that? I sat next to her and she started venting about her family. I tried to relate, and she said something like, yeah, I feel you. My mama is walling right now, too. She then grabbed my face and said, I can't hear this right now. I really can't. So I said, okay, and dropped it. Then, out of nowhere, she started pointing at me, her husband, and our mutual friend, saying, I'm your therapist. I'm your therapist. I'm your therapist. And then she looked directly at me and said, the only reason you even got an accurate diagnosis is because of me. I'll be sending you the bill. Yes. She said this in front of everyone. My boyfriend, our mutual friend, her husband in full public. I have not spoken to her since I blocked her number, but I haven't blocked her on social media. She hasn't reached out to apologize. Instead, she contacted my boyfriend and told him that she ended up in the hospital that night because her heart rate was 203. She didn't acknowledge what she said to me or take any accountability. What's messing with me is that I don't even talk to her much about my personal life. I let her into that space because I trusted her. And now I feel like she saw me as a project instead of an equal, or like my diagnosis is something she owns. I don't miss her, but I miss who I thought she was. How do you grieve a best friend who's still alive but no longer emotionally safe for you? And how do you move forward without feeling like trusting them was a mistake? Thanks, Leonard. Wow, that's quite intense. Because I would think, as an np, you would be very mindful about disclosing that sort of. Even this. This is obviously not your patient, but to say something like. Even if you have been drinking.
- [32:09]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yeah.
- [32:10]
Crystal
To say something like that is. It's so alarming to me.
- [32:13]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
It's very alarming. And a lot of this letter felt intense. I was all. I found myself wondering, like, oh, where are we going next? What's happening? It felt very intense, which I'm imagining is also how Leonard is feeling about the whole breakup. And you. This is a huge betrayal of trust. And so you are very right to be grieving the loss, but also very upset about the fact that your friendship was betrayed and your. The professionalism was betrayed, even though she wasn't your clinician. Like, she knew this information. It was part of her practice. And so it is a huge betrayal. So you are valid in whatever it is that you're feeling. And, you know, I think when friendships end, for whatever reason, it can be really, really hard because there's a lot of ritual around, like, endings around, like, romantic relationships, or if, like, somebody dies. Like, you people kind of know what to do and how to support you. People don't often know how to support you after a friendship ends. Like, they will say things like, oh, you have other friends. It's fine, or she wasn't a good friend anyway, which doesn't actually help you to grieve this long.
- [33:14]
Crystal
Not at all.
- [33:15]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
And so I think it is really important to find some place where people will acknowledge that this. This was a very big loss, and you are okay to be hurt and embarrassed and feeling betrayed that this relationship has ended in the way that it did. Yes. But I also think I heard you say, I'm grieving who I thought this was, which is an additional type of grief. Right. Like, this idea of this image that you had created that didn't actually match reality, but I also think it gives room to find somebody to fill that lane who is actually that person you thought she was. You know, so being able to, you know, set aside like, hey, this really hurts, and I'm gonna allow myself to feel the GR of the ending of this relationship, but also being hopeful that there's other people that can step into that place and support you in the ways you thought that she actually did.
- [34:03]
Crystal
Right. I feel like there's a lot here with the friend's behavior, and I'm not trying to justify it or come up with reasons why she may have behaved that way, because ultimately, she should have never spoken to you this way. It's so inappropriate. And if you actually were her patient, you would have grounds to take this a lot further. But the betrayal, I think, is what would really be sticking with me in this situation. Like, you're my best friend. I trusted you with this diagnosis. Something that, you know, bipolar 2 for a lot of people still carries a lot of shame. There's a lot of stigma around it. So to have your friend kind of throw that out in a crowded bar for the whole world to hear. I think it just sounds devastating. Like, I fully understand the grief, And I think Dr. Joy gave you some great advice here with connecting with people who you can talk to and be open with about it. But it's hard with regret because Leonard also said, how do I move forward without feeling like this was a mistake to trust them? And I think that's trickier because. I. On the one hand, I'm like, we're all only human, you know, and you have these feelings. If I was diagnosed with something, like, I mean, if I was diagnosed with, you know, something medically wrong, I have a best friend who's a physician. I would absolutely talk to her about that. So, you know, it's like, if she then turned around and threw that in my face, it's like, we've been best friends since high school, so I could have never seen that coming. Why would I then beat myself up for the decision to do it? But it's hard not to feel that regret.
- [35:51]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yeah. Yeah.
- [35:52]
Crystal
How do you manage that? Yeah, I think that's so tricky.
- [35:55]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
It's a very natural feeling. I think the hard part is, though, to not let that inform how you respond to new people. Right. Because on the other side of this, it's like, oh, I trusted somebody before, and that didn't work out well, so now I can't trust anybody. And so I think it. It kind of is what we talked about with Susan. Like, you made the best decision you could with the information you had, and the betrayal was hers, not yours. Right. And so you can't take ownership for the thing that they did. It is important for you to know that everybody will not betray you in that way and that you had no control over knowing that this was going to happen.
- [36:29]
Crystal
Right. And don't we see that in relationships, too, with, like, breakups? And it's like, oh, I'm devastated. How could I have trust this person? Why did I believe the things you said? Why did I let myself develop these feelings for you? And I think that's sort of natural in the immediate aftermath after a relationship ending. But it's so important to not let that keep us from opening our hearts to future encounters. Although when you're going through it, it very much feels like, why would I ever set myself up to feel like this again?
- [36:57]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
And that's how you know you're not ready to set yourself up.
- [37:00]
Podcast Sponsor Announcer
Right.
- [37:02]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Jump out there and go try to find a new best friend immediately. You do have to allow yourself to grieve this loss and to heal and you will know. I think you will know you're ready to kind of put yourself back out there when it doesn't feel like, oh, I'm not signing up for that again.
- [37:14]
Crystal
Okay.
- [37:15]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yeah.
- [37:15]
Crystal
Yes. Okay, Leonard, we're wishing you the best. Again, really abhorrent behavior and the fact that she reached out to your boyfriend, not to you, and never took accountability for what she said. She's got deeper stuff going on that has nothing to do with you. And I hope you don't internalize her behavior as that being something wrong with you, because it really was not. Don't know what. Don't know what is going on in her mind, but she certainly should have known better. At my drunkest, at my most lit, and again, I was only ever a student practitioner. And yet all of that information about my clients and things along that, that is under a lock and key. It is in the deepest possible, safe, in the furthest recesses of my mind, it's the last thing that would come out right. So a best friend like she, that's her burden, not yours, Leonard. So wishing you the best of luck. All right, I have one more for you. This is from Lydia. Lydia says I'm a 28 year old black woman feeling completely lost about my next move. I have a bachelor's in English and started teaching last year, but I'm not certified and honestly, I don't even like it. I applied for a teaching residency to move out of state and start fresh, but I didn't get in. And that rejection really shook me. Now I'm questioning everything. I've only stayed in teaching to get my master's and lower my student debt. But deep down, I know that this was never my passion. It was more my parents. I'm considering three teaching English abroad, transitioning into instructional design, or just getting certified and sticking it out. I've also thought about going back to school, but I don't even know for what. How do you pivot with no money, limited job opportunities and the pressure to have a real career before 30? Sometimes I feel as if I wasted my degree, even though my family says the opposite. But I have no idea how to find what's actually for me. Thanks, Lydia.
- [39:16]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
So, Lydia, first of all, do not go back to school. That is not going to be the way we have a degree. We love another degree, thinking that that's going to be the answer. And it probably is not. At least right now. Because you don't know, right? And so unless there's some free program like do not take any additional Debt to try to figure it out, you know? And it sounds like you do not want to actually teach. Like, I hear you. You said at least twice, like, I don't like this. This is not my passion. So I think it's okay to let that go. Right? Like, realizing that you are walking in somebody else's dream and not your own, I think is a really powerful experience, and it's important to listen to that. So I wouldn't encourage you to keep walking down that path now that you've realized I actually don't like this. Instructional design sounds like a very close first cousin. And if it is something that you want to try, it feels like it could be something you could do without any additional training. Like, it feels like, okay, now that you know how to teach, you can also now figure out how to teach somebody else how to teach. Yes. Right. And so it feels like that may be the safest thing to explain, explore, But I also want you to keep yourself open to trying out other things that you don't even know that might be interesting to you. Right. So it sounds like you've only played in the education space. So what would it look like to try some photography? Or do you like social media content creation? Do you like cooking? Is there some other thing that you could try that might be a path to a career option that you don't even know is on the board? But I understand you got to keep the lights on. Right. And so instructional design feels like, okay, maybe you. You could dabble in that to actually have some income while you're also taking some time to figure out, okay, what is really my passion, what lights me up.
- [40:56]
Crystal
Right. My little brother is around your age, Lydia, and he also has a bachelor's degree in English. And he just thought, oh, I'll teach. And then he was like, oh, no, I actually hate this. And now he's like a liquor distributor. You could do it. Whatever. It doesn't matter. This English degree, you could do all kinds of things. I love this advice from Dr. Joy. I would say think back to classes you took in undergrad. Was there anything that surprised you? Like, one for me was technical writing. I did not think I would enjoy that, but I'm like, I really loved my technical writing class where you learn to write for, like, manuals and things other people, you know, they receive, but they never read. Somebody writes those. And as someone who reads the manual for everything, I really appreciate it, and I enjoyed that class. So maybe you think back, like, what did I take in undergrad, which is the Purpose of undergrad. That's why you take all these different classes. You get a little exposure to lots of different things. What did I take that I might want to pursue further? A lot of career paths just require you to have some degree, and it doesn't matter which one. So you may be able to find something you're really interested in in that way. But I also heard you say, you know, I'm feeling this pressure to have a real career before I turn 30. And I would. I would really encourage you to question that. Where does that come from? And why are you putting that burden on yourself, especially in this economy? Baby, look around. America's burning. Any job is incredible at this point. But also, teaching is such a special field, and if you're not passionate about it, you're probably not doing the best possible job you could with those kids. And the burnout happens, even for teachers who love it, and it is what drives them. So for you, you know, you've only been teaching for a year and you're already like, I absolutely hate this. Get out of that classroom. Get out of that classroom and open up your mind to other possibilities, doing things that maybe you never considered before, and work on releasing that pressure to have things look a certain way before you turn 30. Whose milestone is that? Who told you you had to have it together by then? I didn't start my career in podcasting till I was 31 or 32, and, I mean, that was never even supposed to be a career.
- [43:20]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
No.
- [43:20]
Crystal
I literally stumbled into it, and now it's what I do full time. So I think you're limiting yourself unnecessarily. There's a whole wide world out here.
- [43:29]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Exactly. Yeah. I really think it's important to let go of this pressure because those are artificial milestones set by random people. And it's important for you to think about, okay, what is my path? How do I want to kind of show up in the next five to 10 years? And that may look very different than what you ever thought, but I think just trying different things will be the key to getting you a little closer than you are now.
- [43:49]
Crystal
Yes. So what do you say to people who hear that and they say, but I don't even know what I like. I don't even know what I enjoy. I don't even know what I would be interested in.
- [43:58]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yeah, I think you just try stuff. Like, I think going to, like, a community college or, like, you know, they have these, like. What are they called? Like, random. Like, it's not a satellite class, but, like, oh, you take a week long thing. Oh yes, kind of thing.
- [44:11]
Crystal
Like a workshop, like an immersive sort of workshop.
- [44:14]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
So I'm saying community colleges, but I would imagine like libraries might also have these kinds of. That you can kind of drop in and even YouTube University, you know, like watching different things or Coursera, like all these platforms where you can like try out a lot of different stuff. You won't know until you just try random things. Even things that don't sound remotely interesting. You, you like watch a 30 minute video and then it's like, oh, okay, that's not actually my thing. But it will be trial and error to figure out, okay, what is actually my thing.
- [44:41]
Crystal
Yes. I think for a lot of us it's. Although there are so many job opportunities on the Internet, sometimes you need to put that phone down and go out in the world. Sometimes it is these phones, girl, you gotta take a look. Like what free classes are in my area? What are, you know, what is the, is the city putting on something? Like just what can I get involved with creatively? Do you have friends who are doing, you know, maybe you have a friend who's a DJ and could use an assistant at a party or you know, little things like that where you just, you tap into your network, you tap into your city and what's available to find something that makes you feel more energy than what you feel for teaching. Because you sound, when I say miserable as a teacher, baby, you, you said I straight up did this because they get rid of some of your student loans when you teach and that's why a lot of y' all went into it. And that's fair and it is. But you know, you said yourself this was your parents passion, it isn't yours. So try to tap into yourself and figure out what it is that you actually care about.
- [45:46]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
I also want to just add that the thing you do to keep the lights on does not have to equal the thing that you are most passionate about.
- [45:53]
Crystal
Oh, so true.
- [45:54]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Right. You know, like we just got to do what we got to do. Like we live in America, so you got to have something you do. Yeah. So I mean, so you could do a thing just to kind of say you have some income. But that may not be the thing that actually is what gives you the most money, but it could give you an incredible amount of joy. And so I think just finding something to keep the lights on, but also exploring like we've already talked about is really the key to this.
- [46:15]
Crystal
Yes. Back in my day we called it a side hustle. And it's something you do in your part time. That is when, when, when your passions don't pay the bills.
- [46:25]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Yep.
- [46:25]
Crystal
I mean and maybe teaching will become more enjoyable for you when you know you have something else to do that really fulfill. Maybe not. It don't sound like it but I'm just saying. But I'm saying yeah, there a lot of people are working a 9 to 5 to keep the lights paid and then doing fun things, nights, weekends in their off time that you know, keep them feeling alive and like they serve a purpose because this is what capitalism will do, will suck the life right out of you. But don't get me started, Dr. Joy. Don't even have time for me to get on my anti capitalism soapbox. But I feel like that was something I saw a lot as a student was people being like I'm so unfulfilled in this job but how am I going to pay the mortgage without it? And it's like, well damn you not. And this is not an economy to be leaving a job and going to pick up another. Times are hard. So we're trying to find the joy wherever we can. And it sounds like you've got to find your joy. So wishing you the best of luck. Lydia, thank you for emailing. Dr. Joy. It's been my pleasure to have you back on the couch again. Please tell the people where they can find you and your incredible work.
- [47:41]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Yeah. So you can find me all across the Internet at hellodrjoy and then you can check out all of the resources we have available at therapy for black girls.com that is going to wrap up
- [47:51]
Crystal
this week's episode of Chrysalis Couch. Follow us online at Chrysalis Couch. And if you have a question for me, send me an email advicerystlescouch.com we'll see you next week.
- [48:02]
Caller (Susan or Leonard or Lydia)
Spring just slid into your DMs. Grab that boho. Look for that rooftop dinner, those sandals that can keep up with you and hang some string lights to give your patio a glow up. Spring's calling, Ross, work your magic.