Podcast
Cross Lab
Hosted by Steve Hohman & Olivia Espinosa · EN
Cross Lab is where trial attorneys get hands-on with the art of constructive cross-examination.
Hosted by career actors and expert storytellers Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa—who’ve played mock witnesses in over 1,500 cross-examinations—this podcast is packed with the POV you’re missing and won’t find anywhere else.
Join us as we bring together your attorney peers for realistic cross simulations, where they’ll share their trials (and errors), personal insights, and real-world experiences. You’ll also discover how different approaches to the same witness can impact both their testimony and your jury’s perception.
BONUS: No matter where you are in your career, you’ll bank TONS of fresh storytelling strategies, reusable cross chapters, and imagination-sparking word choices for your next depo or trial!
Don’t miss our special Cross-Pollination episodes, where we explore the layers of effective storytelling for audiences, alongside industry collaborators.
Tune in and subscribe to Cross Lab!
8episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
Crossing The Angelic Defendant
May 29, 202501:36:50Tap to summarizeHosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa are joined by personal injury attorney Susie Injijian, as well as actor and writer Sara Taylor.Watch as Susie cross-examines Sara, portraying a sympathetic kindergarten teacher whose vehicle struck a Guatemalan-born pedestrian.Listen in as Susie challenges Sara, and we break down how to confront bias in the courtroom.What’s covered in this episode: Talking ‘money grab’ and other biases in voir direWho to call to the stand when the damages aren’t visibleHow to keep a crying witness from derailing your crossThe tech savvy way to make sure your word choice sticksWhat you need to know to blow your witness’ testimony out of the water Time Stamps00:00 What’s Cross Lab?4:38 The importance of being in a plaintiff friendly county—and how to figure that out8:13 Broaching the “b-word” in voir dire16:35 What to do when your client’s damages aren't visible24:15 Mock Case Overview: Lopez vs Maddison30:29 Susie’s Cross: Crossing an “angelic” defendant49:02 How to handle (and stay in control of) when the water works start1:19:52 The key touchstones that will help you flip your witness1:27:18 Top takeaways if you had to cross a witness like thisTo get free resources for your next trial go to HausImprov.com
Transcribe →The Cop That Saw Nothing
May 15, 202501:20:01Tap to summarizeHosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa are joined by criminal defense and civil rights attorney Bruce Ringstrom, and plaintiff’s personal injury attorney Fred Bryant.Watch as they put Officer Brown (played by Steve) on the stand and challenge his version of events to prove their client did not knowingly help her son evade arrest.This episode is based on a real case from a listener looking for new perspectives on their upcoming trial. To submit your case for an upcoming episode click HERE!What’s covered in this episode: How to turn minimal evidence into explosive revelations Creating real-time surplus realityWhy breaking the #1 “baby lawyer” rule can can pay offWhat to do when a witness doesn’t give you what you want The “who’s the jerk now?” method—this is gold!Time Stamps00:00 What’s Cross Lab?9:24 The blurred line advantages of working with family in your law firm 15:26 Mock Case Overview: State of Idaho vs. Darla Roberts17:08 How to cross a witness with minimal evidence—and uncover explosive surprises (the good kind)20:00 Bruce’s cross: Building surplus reality38:53 Why it’s worth breaking a “baby lawyer” rule40:25 The top fall back when a witness doesn’t give you what you want49:52 An easy technique to reset and rattle a witness at the same time53:44 Fred’s cross: The “who’s the jerk now?” approach 1:08:25 Why tagging your questions with a “isn’t that correct?” can show a lack of confidence1:13:24 Top takeaways if you had to cross a witness like thisTo get free resources for your next trial go to HausImprov.com
Transcribe →The “It’s All About Me" Witness
May 1, 202501:22:13Tap to summarizeHosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa are joined by personal injury and family law attorney Shane Henry, as well as noted TV, film and theater actor, producer and director Jean Bruce Scott.Watch as Shane cross-examines Jean, who plays this episode’s mock witness—a devoted grandma testifying on behalf of her son who’s seeking primary custody of his 2 children. Shane challenges Jean’s claims in this masterclass of constructive cross-examination.What’s covered in this episode: The funnel that traps the witness and triggers the jury’s ‘aha!’ momentWhat Bryan Cranston and Tom Hanks share—and why it’s essential for trial lawyersHow a fact-focused cross can open doors you didn’t expectThe low-key cue that signals you’ve got the opposing witness under your controlA simple way to collect testimony gold—ready for closing, ASAPTime Stamps00:00 What’s Cross Lab?2:55 The real power of constructive cross—for your witness, judge, and jury10:15 Structuring your questions to box in the witness and create an ‘aha!’ moment for the jury17:45 The “secret” to performing that hooks your audience and keeps you credible21:25 What successful big-money verdict attorneys have in common29:30 Mock Case Overview: Stills vs. Stills34:34 Shane’s Cross: Building a clear picture—one fact at a time57:14 A subtle cue that proves you're steering the witness59:56 How to collect key testimony—so your closing organizes itself1:09:17 Tips for managing performance anxiety1:13:41 Top takeaways if you had to cross a witness like thisTo get free resources for your next trial go to HausImprov.com
Transcribe →Cross Pollination: Storytelling that Makes a Difference—From Prison to the Courtroom
Apr 17, 202501:13:15Tap to summarizeWe’re calling this special episode of Cross Lab…Cross Pollination!Hosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa are bringing together their community of theater makers and professional storytellers for a powerful conversation.Our guests—Cecelia Kouma, Mabelle Reynoso, and Arturo Medina from Playwrights Project—are producers, actors, playwrights, and educators who teach playwriting in prisons.Tune in as they share their work, their wisdom, and storytelling techniques that can transform how you build narratives in the courtroom.Instagram @playwrightsprojectWhat’s covered in this episode: How to turn facts into a story—even if you don’t think you're a storyteller4 story kickstarters for a compelling narrativeThe essential hook that makes your listener root for your clientWhy “falling in love” with your client is non-negotiableThe no-brainer step to make your opening statement click with your fact-findersTime Stamps00:00 What’s this special episode of Cross Lab all about?5:23 About Playwrights Project and their work in carceral spaces11:29 The power of storytelling for healing and transformation17:32 Where to start—4 storytelling lifelines when you’re buried under a mountain of facts25:30 How to unlock your client’s real story—and why they’re giving you the “safe” version32:40 What the best attorneys we’ve seen have in common39:23 The #1 thing your listener needs for a story to land and feel real49:00 How to make sure your story is fleshed out and accessible for anyone (perfect for an opening statement!)1:06:03 Don’t think you're a storyteller? Here’s the cure.To get free resources for your next trial go to HausImprov.com
Transcribe →Expert with no expertise
Apr 3, 202501:17:36Tap to summarizeIn this episode of Cross Lab, hosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa are joined by plaintiff’s attorney Federico Lathrop and estate and trust attorney Mike Hackard. Watch as they cross-examine Steve, who plays an occupational consultant and defense expert witness. They’ll challenge his opinion on the employability of the plaintiff, whose medical assessments reveal severe limitations that impact his ability to work.Instagram: @hackard_law@fedelawyerWhat’s covered in this episode: How to balance expectations and earn trust with emotionally charged clientsThe double edge sword of multi-fact questionsQuestions that expose biases—no matter what the witness answersWhat successful lawyers you love have in commonWhy the word “AND” is the invitation you want to give to your juryTime Stamps00:00 What’s Cross Lab?11:11 Balancing trust and expectations with clients experiencing trauma and grief19:42 Mock Case Overview: Grayson vs. NextGen and Samuel Dent21:55 Federico’s Cross: Exposing biases—no matter what the witness answers40:14 What looping aka repeating your witness’s words does to an expert45:09 The power (and danger) of stacking multiple facts into one question49:28 The common traits successful lawyers have53:12 Mike Cross: Word selection that paints a picture1:11:48 The magic of "AND" for your jury1:13:12 Top takeaways if you had to cross a witness like thisTo get free resources for your next trial go to HausImprov.com
Transcribe →Emotionally charged divorced couple with Bibi Badejo
Mar 21, 202501:29:08Tap to summarizeIn this episode of Cross Lab, hosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa are joined by barrister and advocacy coach Bibi Badejo.Watch Bibi cross-examine both Steve and Olivia, who portray a divorced couple where neither party has clean hands. Bibi skillfully challenges each of their stories and their roles in a complex, multi-suit case involving large sums of money, kids and old wounds.What’s covered in this episode: The foundation you can lay that boxes any witness in—and pays off big timeA go-to framework for defending your client (even when their actions make zero sense)What your listener is really thinking when you’re sticking a witness to the questionThe sneaky way to trap a witness in their own admissionsHow to slice away a witness's opinion from the real evidenceTime Stamps00:00 What’s Cross Lab?2:20 The question to ask yourself that steers the judge and jury where you want them3:14 How to adjust your language for judges and juries—and what juries don't want from you6:18 A genius ‘common sense’ strategy to defend your client’s actions (even when they don’t make sense)17:00 Mock Case Overview: Butler vs. Butler19:38 Bibi’s Cross on Dane Butler: One fact questions that lay the foundation for a big payoff!38:18 Painting a picture with facts that corner the witness and let their discomfort tell your story.43:01 How starting with general questions can trap a witness with their own admissions48:28 What your listener is thinking when you hold a witness to the question55:26 Cross of Lily: Expertly separating a witness's opinion from the real evidence1:20:02 Repetition that works for you—no matter what the witness saysBibi’s website: https://www.theadvocacycoach.com/The Advocacy Podcast https://www.theadvocacypodcast.com/To get free resources for your next trial go to HausImprov.com
Transcribe →Toxicologist and expert witness for the state on contaminated evidence
Mar 6, 202501:16:53Tap to summarizeIn this episode of Cross Lab, hosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa are joined by plaintiff’s attorney Mark Choate and criminal defense/DUI attorneys Chuck Rathburn and Bruce Ringstrom. Watch them cross-examine Olivia, who portrays a toxicologist and expert witness on behalf of the state. They’ll challenge the expert’s opinion on the validity of the BAC and blood draw procedures.What’s covered in this episode: How crossing an expert witness can change your word selectionThe hidden role gender can play in your cross-examinationAn easy demonstrative to illustrate percentage points for your juryUsing the expert to expose mishandlings in the case and create reasonable doubtWhat taking a moment to pause can do to a witnessThe trap you can fall into when you know their case well—and how to fix itTime Stamps00:00 What’s Cross Lab?04:05 How an expert witness can change your approach to word selection12:06 Mock Case Overview: State of Washington vs. Oscar Phillips13:28 Chuck Rathburn’s Cross: Painting a clear picture of contamination27:05 Approaching gender with an expert?33:03 Simple demonstratives to illustrate the difference a few percentage points can make in BAC levels35:17 Mark Choate’s Cross: Determining the level of intoxication45:51 Leveraging the expert to expose other mishandlings in the case and create reasonable doubt53:06 Bruce Ringstrom’s Cross: Exposing the expert’s lack of hands-on involvement1:06:46 The impact your reset has on a witness1:10:14 Top takeaways if you had to cross a witness like this1:12:37 The trap of knowing too much—and how to fix itTo get free resources for your next trial go to HausImprov.com
Transcribe →Expert radiologist for the defense with 800+ cases on their behalf
Feb 18, 202501:17:24Tap to summarizeIn this episode of Cross Lab, hosts Steve Hohman and Olivia Espinosa welcome personal injury trial attorneys Susie Injijian and Jon Choate, along with personal injury and criminal defense attorney Russell Goodrow.Watch as these 3 attorneys cross-examine Steve, who portrays an expert radiologist on behalf of the defense. They’ll challenge his opinion that only soft tissue injuries and pre-existing conditions—not lingering effects from MTBI—are present in the plaintiff. What’s covered in this episode:Techniques for a 'yes, and' cross-examination that questions expert conclusionsHow to score points against an expert who protests too muchThe power of improvised loops to solidify words and concepts for the juryHow to leverage the power of what an expert doesn’t knowThe offensive word that will make an expert witness bristle (even if it’s the truth)Time Stamps00:00 What’s Cross Lab?3:18 How to start formulating a cross6:22 Case Description: Sandra Little v. Grant School District & Gary Carpenter9:20 Jon Choate’s cross: Word choice that paints a clear picture for the jury 19:35 How to stay out of an argument with the witness29:40 Russell Goodrow’s cross: Loops to control a witness and an easy physical demonstrative40:55 What to do when a witness that won’t answer the question49:50 Susie Injijan’s cross: Techniques for being an effective teacher/guide for the jury1:00:47 The word that no expert will want to hear (because it’s sooo good for you)1:04:48 Your biggest weapon in the courtroom 1:09:44 Top takeaways of you had to cross a witness like thisWould you like to be a guest or have an idea for a future episode, reach out to us here!Cross Lab is powered by LawPods. Get FREE narrative building resources for the courtroom here!
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