Alex Clark (3:21)

Do you think psychology is unscientific?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (3:24)

First of all, I think from a preface perspective, you always gotta be careful. You know, I would want to be careful in the sense of the immediate rebuttal from people would be, you know, you're a tinfoil guy and you don't believe in modern science. I would say that science is based on data. Typically, if you're just going to look at the dsm, which, the DSM is the gold standard for diagnosing. It's the Diagnostic Statistical Manual for Mental Illness. If you're just going to look at that and the DSM 5, which was recently updated about a decade ago, the way that they're diagnosing it isn't scientific. It's asking questions and then you're gleaning answers. And I told you before we hopped on that I could hop on a Google interview right now. I could type in I am depressed. A sponsored ad would appear. They'd ask me a couple questions. I'd say I've been having frequent mood swings and within 30 minutes they would be able to prescribe me psychotropic drugs. They haven't taken a blood test, they haven't checked out my brain. That is different in the sense of if I was going to go to the doctor and have a cancer screening or they were going to measure my lungs or monitor my lungs or say that I have bronchitis or pneumonia. So there is no empirical data. I think that's the main idea for the majority of mental health diagnosis that are occurring in the modern day.

Alex Clark (4:35)

Do most mental health diagnoses lack verifiable medical evidence?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (4:41)

Well, yes, yes. There's no, there's no evidence in the DSN that this stuff is actually happening inside the brain. So let's just take an example if someone is ocd, right? I'm not going to say these things don't exist. And that's not what we're saying when we talk about adhd, ocd, defiant disorder, which is just, I don't like authority. That's now a disorder, which is an illness. Okay, so ocd, like you come to me and Alex says, I can't stop washing my hands, right? I would say, hey, there might be actually something happening, right? You might have something going on, you might have worry, a control compulsion, but there's no way for me to diagnose that as an illness. Whereas I'm taking a test or evaluation of your brain or your body and saying, yeah, you're sick, as in you had cancer. That's what I think. At the beginning you were saying people have conflated. So it's not that there's no evidence at all, it's just that the evidence isn't scientific or people talk about chemical imbalance, but those chemical imbalances are based on a survey, not an empirical data.

Alex Clark (5:45)

Well, and we know the whole, you know, depression is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. That was all, it's all marketing garbage made up by big Pharma. It's not, there's, it's not even real.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (5:55)

Which is why that data continues to be distorted. Meaning that the University of Michigan said that the ages between the ages of 12 and 24, 66% increase than 10 years ago. That's not because people are actually scientifically more depressed. It's just that more people are saying I have mood swings and, and stuff like that.

Alex Clark (6:12)

If there's no evidence that various mental health disorders are a medical issue, what are we taking meds for?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (6:18)

I think that's, that's the question. And I think from, you know, I'm a, I'm a pastor, I work with students. And part of the heart behind this is going like when I was working in the camping ministry, just from a story perspective, I used to work with thousands of teenagers every single week. And over time you begin to see just the increase in those drugs because when they come to camp, they have to turn those in and then we distribute them at night. So just even within a five year span, I'm just seeing those things climb. It became like a couple hours objective at the end of every evening to pass out these different medications for depressants, antidepressants, anti anxieties, all that different things. So you would say that it's a symptom, repression. So if you wake up and you have a. And a headache, I'd say, hey, take an Advil. Right. So it's masking symptoms. It's not addressing the root cause. And most of these things. And this goes back to the conflation of the mind and the brain. It's addressing symptoms because that's how you were diagnosed in the first place. You were articulating your symptoms. They give you medications based on your symptoms. And so those things maybe take you to a neurological playing field. And we can talk about this even more as, what does the Bible say about this? Because medicine's not bad. I wouldn't tell everyone, hey, get off your meds. Doctors are an exhibition of the grace of God. Right?

Alex Clark (7:30)

Yeah. You're not a Christian Scientist.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (7:31)

No, no. Yeah. There's a real element where I'm going, hey, if you have. If you're super depressed, like, postpartum is real, like, there's moms that deeply struggle with depression, where I'd say, hey, go check. Go talk to your doctor. Right. There's a real element there. But that's never going to take you. And this is probably where the crux of my writing is and my work as a pastor into an active trust in the Lord. But those things can, for a moment, level out the nerd neurological playing field. But their symptom, suppression, not healing. Any sort of. I think keyword here is an illness, because it's not illness, because it's never been empirically verified. And even the guy, Francis Allen. Francis Allen was the godfather, in a sense, of the dsm, which, again, is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Illness. He is a chair of psychiatry at Duke. He did the DSM 3, which was like the version in the 80s and then the 90s. But then he's actively opposed, not a Christian guy, to the DSM 5, which was released 10 years ago. And he said that there are now thousands of people who are gonna go to bed healthy that'll wake up sick.

Alex Clark (8:35)

Wow.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (8:35)

Because you have thousands upon thousands of people that are being given meds for just the everyday worries and stresses of life. So that's an unbeliever. Not a Christian. He's just a professor at Duke. And he's saying, hey, I once led the charge on the dsm. Now I'm looking at it and saying, hey, this is ridiculous. And he gave a lecture, I think, in 2012, just acknowledging that, hey, the world in which we're living is just aggressively pushing issues on people. So the statistics. I mean, I think there's 20 million children now, 3 to 17 that are given meds for ADHD. And if you said, hey, same thing here, like if I didn't sit straight when I was a kid in first grade in Wheaton, Illinois, someone has said, Johnny has ants in his pants. Now that kid has adhd, he is his disease and he will be on meds the rest of his life. So in many cases, not all cases, so you have, they're not treating a real illness. It's just a suppression of symptoms to kind of level them out. So it's a good question. I think that's why there should be a level of healthy skepticism towards the industry in general. Not that you look at every single doctor and physician and cross your fingers and call them demonic.

Alex Clark (9:44)

Well, here's what I thought was completely shocking. 23% of American adults are in traditional secular therapy, yet mental health issues are rising 5% every year. What's going on here?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (9:59)

We live in the first generation where you're processing tragedy not at a morning by morning basis because you had the youth to read the newspaper. Now all you have to do is refresh your phone and you're confronted with tragedy. You're confronted with, you know, this kid's getting bullied and you watch it on your phone. Then this tragedy's happening and the world is falling apart. And so you're first of all inundated. And Jonathan Haidt talks about that a lot. You're inundated with the depravity and the darkness of this world at a constant level. Average person, you and I spend seven hours a day looking at her screen. Abigail talks about that just in regards to the rampant use of phone and technology. Abigail Schreier yeah, and there's other elements, you know, like there's a lot of studies in a secular perspective of the rise of pornography consumption and anxiety. So you could say, hey, look at that. 94% of, I think it's 14 year olds have been exposed to pornography. The average 11 year old has seen pornography. 90% of men look at it on an active basis. And so that, that even in a, in an unbelieving element, when I talk about like a non Christian environment that has, there's a shared element there, that link. And then you just have to say, well what's happening there is people are giving labels to what is everyday stresses, pressures and concerns of life. So the battle for bread is a good thing. Meaning, like, hey, I, I, I, as a father I want to wake up and work hard for my family. I get worried about it sometimes. I'm concerned about it people would say, you know, your general anxiety disorder, 78 million.

Alex Clark (11:21)

But see, this is where I am. Like, we have gone off the rails here. There is a certain level of feeling sad that is healthy, of allowing yourself to feel anxious when you're getting ready to, you know, give a speech or. Yeah, you're worried about, like, providing for your family. And we're trying to medicate every aspect of human emotion. We need to feel the full scales of human emotion, I think.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (11:46)

Yeah.

Alex Clark (11:47)

And that's what sad is. Is.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (11:49)

Is.

Alex Clark (11:49)

You know, speaking of sad, that's what's sad is that most teenagers today, they don't ever say the word sad. They say depressed. Yeah, they don't even say that because they've just been trained to medicate everything. And that, you know, you should never feel high highs or low lows. You should always be kind of one note.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (12:04)

And that's what they're in inundated with at the school level as well. So, I mean, you go into a school and people are having trouble, you know, and this is fostered, meaning it's cultivated, it's teased out of people like, hey, are you having a bad day? Do you have bad days? Consistently? Do you feel like you struggle with your identity or whatever it is? This is true of the sexual revolution in regards to like, hey, have you ever thought someone else, if you're a girl, have you ever thought another girl is pretty? Oh, you're a lesbian. Right. There's ways in which we are, we're extrapolating things and we're creating issues that aren't issues at all. So to your point, meaning, like, yeah, someone could be sad, ptsd. We're not saying it's not real. We are saying, hey, grief is a real issue. Right. And so there's a spectrum there. Meaning, like, my friend tells a story of saying he came back from the military, he had grief, and they said, just say it's PTSD and you'll be on disability the rest of your life. Meaning that. So he's in, I don't think I have ptsd. But there's other people that you go, hey, we're not saying it's not real. We're just saying the way that it's diagnosed has no empirical data, it's symptom based. And so those symptoms could be ptsd, it could be depression, it could be anxiety, it could be panic attacks, could be whatever.

Alex Clark (13:09)

Does scripture alone have sufficient answers for anxiety and depression?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (13:15)

Yes.

Alex Clark (13:16)

If that is true though, then how do you explain so many identifying Christians suffering from Anxiety and depression.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (13:22)

Well, when I say that Scripture alone has the answers, you know, I would also say that Scripture alone provides us with allowance, first Timothy 5, to be able to use the remedies in God's world appropriately. So I think that's why you need a healthy level of discernment on when and how you take medication. Meaning that God's will for your life isn't just to remove anxiety. It's to replace your anxiety with trust. Trust in the Lord. Proverbs 3, 5, with all of your heart, lean not on your own understanding. So Scripture alone, that's called the sufficiency of Scripture. We talked a little bit beforehand on the distinction between maybe what's Christian counseling and biblical counseling. Biblical counseling is based on the underlying assumption, the underlying conviction that God's Word is sufficient for all that we need pertaining to life and godliness. The that's 2 Peter 1, meaning that God, through His Word and through his Spirit, tells us how we can live and how we can obey Him. I think probably just to go back to a degree, when you're saying, hey, why is the world so anxious? It's only rational in the world that we live to be crippled by anxiety. When I meet someone that doesn't know the Lord Jesus Christ and they tell me they're anxious, I say, of course you are. And this is probably where we're going, into the lane where I would feel the most comfortable going. Of course you're anxious. Right? That's why Paul describes peace and flesh, Philippians 4, as something that is supernatural. He says, the peace of God which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus. What does it mean, that peace that surpasses all understanding? It just means the peace that a Christian has is nonsensical to the world in which we live. Meaning if someone doesn't know God, you rob God from the picture. You take out a sovereign God who loves you and is infinitely wise, watching and living in a world where cancer thrives. There's unemployment, there's political tension, there's nuclear war, weapons being launched into the ocean. And someone says, you're anxious and they're anxious. And I would say, of course you're anxious. That's why peace is so unnatural. And the answers, and I would say the basis upon which someone has that peace is derived from the truth that is found in God's Word and the Bible. I think, and we can talk more about this, the Bible has a lot to say about anxiety. There's a lot of examples of anxious People. And there is a consistent prevalent theme in the way that God responds to those people.

Alex Clark (15:25)

So I had never realized that there was a difference between biblical counseling and Christian counseling. What is the difference between those two things?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (15:31)

I think I summarize it briefly, and I think there's different people. People say things like, it's just semantics. And I never. I don't really subscribe to that type of a statement because semantics are everything. Words matter. I think just in general, biblical counseling, in comparison with other forms of counseling, maybe including Christian counseling, has as their basis and their foundation what does the Bible say and approaches it. You know, up until 100 years ago, that when someone was struggling with anxiety or depression, the first person that would meet with them is a pastor. Right. Richard Baxter talks a lot about this. And not saying that there's no room for medical professionals. I'm not swinging from one spectrum to another. It just means that the basis for which you immediately consult someone and talk to them if they're depressed or anxious is the authority of God's word. You're examining their heart. You're asking them if there's any sin in their life, asking them if there's anything else. What are you afraid about? Could it be that you lack a trust in God's goodness and control? That's why one of the first questions I ask when I ask someone if they're. When they tell me they're anxious is I ask them, hey, is there anything you're harboring? If they're depressed, I say, is there any sin you're harboring? Why? Well, because Psalm 32 says, When David kept silent about his sin with Bathsheba, he says his body was wasting away and he felt as if he was being drained by the fever heat of summer because he was crippled with anxiety and depression. He says, I didn't want to move. He felt like a raisin in the sun. So often I'll ask these questions and I'll say, okay, there's nothing here, nothing here, nothing here. Maybe at that point it's good to go check with your physician. I would say a lot of Christian psychology begins with psychology. And then there's maybe a Bible verse that could be sprinkled on top of it. I'm not trying to be unfair here. I just think that biblical counseling makes as its staunch claim and conviction. We start with God's word. We're not denying God's grace commons grace in medical professionals, but we want to start with God's word and evaluating the whole person, which would be the body Soul and mind.

Alex Clark (17:22)

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Pastor Johnny Artavanis (20:19)

ACBC or that would be the association of Biblical Counselors would be like they have recommended people that are going to for sure align under that, that conviction of going, hey, we want to start with scripture. There's others. I think Jonathan Fields is a guy that has that type of a ministry. He's associated with Alistair Beg. So I think they make it very known. So I would just say, how are they evaluating the symptoms and what questions are they asking and what prescription are they providing?

Alex Clark (20:46)

Are biblical counselors truly equipped to handle severe trauma?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (20:50)

Yeah, I think in many cases. And then there's other cases where like there's this guy that I'm friends with, Dr. Greg Gifford. He wrote a book called Lies My Therapist Told Me, which is probably the more fluent, articulate answer to some of these questions because he's in the biblical counseling world. And he would say, I began to answer those questions. He was in the military. He's who I mentioned. He would say, yeah, I've dealt with people with trauma. I navigate that. Sometimes I'm saying, what fear? Where's your mind going? And this is really where the Bible speaks prevalently, meaning if there's not anything happening that's measurable on the brain, where are you setting your mind? Because they would sometimes people would say, well, a panic attack is involuntary response. And then he would begin to ask questions and unravel. Okay, what are you thinking about? What are you thinking about? There's a reason why the Bible says, set your mind on things above Ephesians 4:23, Be renewed in the spirit of your mind. Romans 12:2. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. So a lot of these questions have to go with, what are you thinking about? And he'll meet with people to answer your question regarding trauma. There might be some elements neurologically playing. He might say, hey, go visit a doctor, go visit a physician. And if there's nothing happening there, there's no empirical data to suggest that something's happening there. Then maybe we just come back and we do believe that God's word is sufficient, not meaning, like, it's not just one of many tools. Or, hey, we might memorize a Bible verse. It's. It's sufficient for life and godliness. That's not saying we hate doctors. We appreciate doctors. My brother's a doctor. But yeah, in many cases, I would say it's sufficient to be able to handle trauma.

Alex Clark (22:21)

Do you think that most secular therapists are predatory?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (22:25)

Define predatory.

Alex Clark (22:26)

More likely to break up a marriage.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (22:28)

Than try to save it in some cases. You know, there's a term where you're basically creating more harm. Harm than helping, right? In the sense of when a kid that is bullied at school hypothetically goes to visit a therapist, he ends up harboring all of his anger, and he ends up becoming angry, embittered, more than he would have been if he just was like, I'm going to get a new group of friends, or something like that. And bullying is obviously awful regarding marriage, I think that it can be more harmful than helpful. I think it depends on the therapist that you're visiting. But a lot of these therapists are not addressing the problem of the human heart, so they're going to pin the problem on the spouse. So let's say if I'm meeting with a guy and he says, my wife is a real jerk, okay? And I'm just going to put this in my language. I'm going to say, according to the Bible. The Bible says you're to wash her with the word of God. The Bible says you're to love her as Christ loved the church. You're thinking about yourself too much. This is all about how you. She's treating you. You're not mentioning anything about the way that you're treating her. Well, I'm trying to be selfless. Well, even there, I can tell that you're developing bitterness in your heart towards her. And it says in Hebrews, let no root of bitterness spring up within you, that many be defiled. You're actually, your heart is becoming calcified and corrupted by the level of bitterness that you have against her. Right. I'm going to say this is a you problem. I'm going to say, yeah, she might be sinful, but make sure your heart's right. And you're to pray for her, you're to win her over, you're to wash her in the word of God. So I would approach that differently and saying God hates divorce too. God hates divorce, except for the unchastity. Jesus says, and you would say maybe neglect. He hates divorce. So if I'm talking to a couple or if I'm talking to a man that's married to another woman, that's not even on the table. So I think when you're talking to a therapist, you know, I don't know what the stats is, but it's no better in the church than it is in the secular world. But half of marriages ended in divorce. So they are probably initially even approaching the conversation as if that is an option.

Alex Clark (24:22)

Modern psychology is often rooted in humanism. So I guess my question would be, should Christians even engage with a, with a field that is built on fundamentally anti God presuppositions?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (24:33)

I think that, you know, Jesus says to be true to serpents, innocent as doves, right? So I read and engage on that so that I can exercise a healthy level of discernment. So I know how to talk to people. I would also say that this has creeped into the Christian church as well. Meaning, like, there are guys that I respect that would maybe lean towards more into the psychological element of things than I would. And so I want to be careful too, because I think there is a spectrum. Meaning let's just all approach it. We'll just slap a psychotropic drug to it. Then there's like, okay, well, I don't think that's the exclusive answer, but we're a little bit over here. We start over here and then we also sprinkle a Bible verse. There's people that are like, and this is in a way an answer to your question of is the Bible sufficient? There are also people that are, hey, only scripture, don't ever see a doctor or you're not trusting the Lord. It's a sin problem, right? When a mom might be really battling with postpartum depression and she might actually need something to level out the neurological playing field. So there's an element where Martyn Lloyd Jones talks about how we are embodied beings. We are body, soul and mind. And even I'll talk about this as the conversation unfolds. But when God comes to Elijah, who's deeply depressed. He proclaims his character, but he also gives him a nap and a snack. And I think there's an element. Yeah, come on. He's mindful of our frame. It says in Psalm 103. He knows that we're. We're bodies, right? And we're. There's emotions and stuff like that. So as far as your question, should we even be engaged or should we be informed? I think that you'd have to approach it. My big idea here would be with a healthy level of skepticism in regards to how things are being diagnosed and then the prescriptions that are being provided based on that diagnosis. And the lion's share of what I've. I would say I speak to, or I, you know, when I pastor and when I counsel is your everyday worry about my son, my daughter, my finances, my future, my relationships. But sadly, much of that, just what's under that general banner, I'm single. I want to get married. Will I ever get married? If you have that thought as you go to bed at night, general anxiety disorder. Here's a pill. And that's what even Francis Allen, who I mentioned, who is not a believer, who's a professor at Duke, said, hey, that's just an everyday worry, but now you're giving a psychotropic drug for it.

Alex Clark (26:45)

Where does scripture actually address anxiety, depression, fear, and how should that shape our view, mental health?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (26:51)

You know, what's one of my favorite questions? Because I think people that struggle with anxiety and depression, there's this underlying guilt as they even talk about it. And I would just say, hey, listen, let's just use some examples, and I don't want a tangent for a moment, but if you think about Moses, you know, R.C. sproul used to say, he's the most important person in the Old Testament. He gives the law, God commissions Moses to go to Pharaoh. And when he commissions Moses, Moses says, I can't go. Send someone else. He's crippled by anxiety. He has a speech impediment. According to his own testimony. I can't talk. Good. Send someone else. So he's crippled with anxiety. And that's a guy that stands shoulder to shoulder with Jesus Christ at the Mount of Transfiguration. So that's Moses, Job. There's 15 times in the Old Testament, the Hebrew word tom is used. That word means blameless. Only once does it refer to a man. If you know the story of Job in Job one and two, his life is destroyed by Sabians, Chaldeans, wind and fire. He's left there childless, his livestock is dead, his servants are dead, and he's sitting in a pile of dirt scraping his boils with a shard of pottery as his wife tells him to curse God and die. And at the beginning of the book that bears his name, he says, naked I have come from my mother's womb. Naked I will return. Blessed be the name of the Lord. But by the middle of the book, he's saying that his whole life has been tuned to the sound of mourning, that he's a companion of jackals. When do jackals hang out at night? He's just saying, I'm an insomniac and I'm depressed, and my whole life has been tuned to the sound of mourning. And he's asking God, where are you? Where are you? I'm depressed. He's in the muck, in the mire. Elijah. I mentioned the greatest prophet in the Old Testament, Moses and Elijah stand shoulder to shoulder with Jesus at the Mount of transfiguration. Elijah in First Kings 18, calls down fire from heaven. And I just. Sometimes, especially if people have grown up hearing Bible stories are like, yeah, yeah, I know. Hey, there's only. It's a rare event in history when a guy calls down fire from heaven and says Yahweh is the only true God. He defeats 850 false prophets, slaughters them. And then in the next chapter, he finds out that Jezebel is wanting to kill him. And he runs for his life, sits down under a tree, is so suicidal he begs God to kill him because he's so depressed and fearful. And I'm mentioning these guys and I'll get to the theme. David would be my last example. There are 42 kings in the Old Testament. Only one of them is referred to as a man after God's own heart. That guy's name is David. And David is a. He is a man's man, we'll put it that way. It is sung of David. That guy has slain his ten thousands. I mean, not a song that's ever going to be sung of me. But he is a man's man. And he writes great truth about the Psalms. But in the Psalms he also articulates his lament. 33% of the Psalms are lament, which is people pouring out their heart to God, saying, where are you tears, right? And David writes, every single night I make my bed swim with my own tears. Where are you, God? Why are you so downcast, O my soul? I mentioned those four examples in the Old Testament and we'll get to the new. But that's David, Job, Elijah and Moses, because those are four of the godliest characters in human history. You name your sons after those characters and they're deeply depressed to the point with a couple of them, that they're suicidal. Now, one of the ways in which God responds well, the way God responds routinely, as he does with Job. God responds to Job and he doesn't say, let me tell you why this is happening. He responds to Job by saying, let me tell you who I am. When God interacts with the anxious, he doesn't explain their circumstances or their situations. He mounts the divine pulpit and he proclaims his character. That is the routine prescription that the Great physician, God himself gives to those who are anxious. To Moses, when Moses says, I can't talk, God responds and says, who made man's mouth? Is it not I, the Lord? I'll be with you. When Elijah is anxious, God proclaims his character. Yes, he gives him a nap and a snack first, but he proclaims his character to Job. God comes out of the whirlwind and you think Job has gone through it, right? His kids are dead, his livestock, his servants are dead, his house is destroyed, and he's sitting in a pile of dirt scraping his boils. God comes out of the whirlwind in job 38 and says, job, gerd your loins. Literally. And then God goes on a four chapter manifesto proclaiming his sovereignty, his love, his control, his wisdom and his mercy. And he begins to ask Job questions, where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Have you ever in your life commanded the morning? Does the lightning tap you on the shoulder and ask you where to strike? God responds to the anxious routinely this way. Same thing with David. When David is anxious, God responds by proclaiming his character. Now, I've mentioned that's the Old Testament. And people say, oh, that's the Old Testament. What about the New? Well, because God is the same yesterday, today and forever, right? So is the prescription that he is the great physician provides. And I think, going back to your original question, I used to tell students this. And I remember one time I was preaching on this at a camp and a guy stood up and said, how dare you? But I told students, if Jesus, you know, we're sitting here in a studio, if you are going to be interviewing Jesus of Nazareth 20:25, he's sitting here in a chair, he'd have nothing new to say that was not already in his perfect, inspired and sufficient word. He wouldn't be saying you know, I have read this new book. I've written a book on anxiety. I wrote Considered the Lilies, but it's about God's character. But he wouldn't be saying, read this. He's saying, it's already been revealed here. I've already given you the truth. And so when Jesus shows up on the scene in Matthew 6, he's addressing a multitude of people who are very anxious. And we always say, well, they were farmers with pitchforks and we're dealing with nuclear warfare. I just. I always want to bring people's mind back to the reality of what the people of God, those, the Jewish people, were under at that point. When Jesus came, they were under the ruthless regime of Rome. It was literally in that same context. The greatest prophet that had arisen in 400 years, John the Baptist, he was literally beheaded by Herod, chopped off his head because he didn't like what he had to say. Rome used to crucify men, women, and children for 40 miles leading up into a city signifying, you do not mess with Rome. And this was the oppressive regime that was ruling over the people. The thought of, how am I going to provide for my family, my relationships, and my future was a very real thought. And Jesus doesn't go up and down the line saying, all right, this is why I think even I would want to couch even some of the answers. I say in an element. We're going, what if Jesus talking the way that I answer on a podcast, it's going to seem by a lot of people is a lot different than the way that I would answer if I'm sitting down with you and you're crippled by anxiety. Because I'm a pastor and I love people. And so. But Jesus doesn't go up and down a line and legitimize or delegitimize people's anxiety. He takes everyone's anxiety and says, do not worry. That Greek word is merimnao, comes from a compound Greek word, merizo, which means teteror, divide a nuos, the mind. It means a divided mind, do not worry. And then he doesn't just stop there. And I think this is really important. The Bible's prescription for anxiety is never just a cut it out, stop it, be done with that. It's always to replace our anxiety with an active trust in who God is. And that's why Jesus argues from the lesser than to the greater than and says, hey, look at the birds of the air. Do the birds elect captains of food acquisition? Do they have chief supply chain Officers, no. And then I care for them. Look at the lilies of the field. And so he draws their attention. Then he's going to say, and if God cares and provides and loves the lilies, how much more does he care, provide and love those who are made in his image? He wants them to think. And this goes back to modern psychology. Modern psychology tells people that their anxiety is the fruit of thinking too much. Jesus says it is the fruit of thinking too little about the character of God. So modern psychology says, stop thinking. Jesus says, start thinking about who God is as your Father. Now, I don't want to filibuster here, and I want you to intervene. If Jesus says that the antidote to our anxiety, our worry, the everyday stresses, pressure, pressures and concerns of life is, is not fixing our gaze on God, because faith is not a thing. Faith is an exercise. Meaning people say things like, I placed my faith in God. That's different than an everyday. We walk by faith. If the antidote to our anxiety is gazing at God, fixing our faith on him, then what we need to do as Christians is to ground our faith in and deepen our faith in who God is. Because people say things like, trust God, and it seems like an empty cliche, a Christian platitude, when you don't know.

Alex Clark (35:02)

God's character for somebody who has really never heard this before. Or they're like, oh, I'm a lifelong Christian, but I guess listening to Pastor Johnny, I'm realizing maybe I don't know the character of God as well as I should. Where is the best place to start to really deepen your understanding of the character of God?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (35:19)

Well, in God's Word.

Alex Clark (35:20)

So where would you tell them? Like, read this first.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (35:22)

You know, it's a great question, but a lot of people ask me, what's your favorite memory verse? Or something like that? I would say, well, God's truth isn't given to us in just little snippets. It's given to us as a story. So there's a story in God's Word. And this is why I love the Bible. I love to preach the Bible. I believe that God's answers are given in God's Word. So I would say that it's the entirety of who he is. So as an example in my book, Consider the Lowlies, I take seven stories or seven attributes of God that are fundamental to our experiencing of peace in God's world. Meaning an attribute is anything you attribute to God, God's love, God's sovereignty, which means that he rules and reigns his wisdom, his omniscience. That's taken from the Latin word omniscientia, all, all knowing that he hears us, that he hears our prayers, that he's with us. God is a refuge. Psalm 46. So I began to look at a lot of the Psalms, right? Because a lot of this truth is found in the Psalms, but it's found elsewhere as well. Take Psalm 46, for example. That's written against the backdrop of the nation of Assyria is encroaching in on Israel, and they're saying, we're going to destroy you. We're going to wipe everyone out. And then God sends out the angel of the Lord and wipes out 186,000 Assyrians. That's a story in the Bible. Psalm 46 begins with these words. God is a refuge, He's a defense for us and our strength. I like to pause in those words because God's not only there for us when we're depleted of strength and we run to Him. He's our strength, he's our refuge, but he's also our strength. He's our defense and our offense. And it's as an ever present help in times of trouble. The literal rendering in Hebrew is that he is as near as your next breath. You don't have to travel to God. And then it says, therefore we will not fear. But I think a chapter just. And this is just. And this is what I was preaching throughout my church, going like, hey, I hope this is helpful. Developing the conscious awareness that I am with God at all times. David was on the run for an example from King Saul for a decade of his Life. And Psalm 139 is one of the greatest of psalms. He says, oh, Lord, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise, you perceive my thoughts from afar. And he says, where can I go from your spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go to the heavens, you're there. If I make my bed in the depths, you're there. He's just saying, wherever I go, God, you're with me. Even if I make my bed in Sheol, if I go down to the darkest, darkest place, you're there with me. So God's presence then becomes something that buoys his anxious heart. God's love. So you could go on and on and on. You can't look at God's character as pieces of a pie. And I talk about this, I think a lot, but meaning that God's not 20% love, 20% just he's all of his attributes all of the time. Which means, A.W. tozer says, it takes a whole Bible to make a whole Christian. And I love that line because a lot of people take a certain idea about God, like, let's just meditate on his love. But if you meditate on his love at the expense of meditating on his sovereignty, you're going to view God only as a father without viewing him as a king. If you view him only as a king and a sovereignty without viewing as a loving father, you're going to view him as this authoritative figure that's capriciously pulling strings. Let's give this guy a bad day. Because, you know, I remember when my friend's mom died, someone came up and slapped him on the back and said, God's in control. There's truth in that. But I never want to separate God's control from his wisdom and his love and his perfect plan for your life as a father. And so when you say, what's the best place to start? I would say, well, you need to develop a deep understanding of the comprehensive nature of who God is. Yes, that starts in one place. Meaning, like, you don't start as a theologian, but every Christian should have that right, should want to know God more. That's her greatest privilege in life. Philippians 4. 6 says, Be anxious for nothing, meaning God doesn't want you to be anxious. He says, but by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God. Then it says, and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds. That word for guard is like a double walled city. So I sometimes ask people, do you want your heart and mind guarded like a double walled city from anxiety? That's what Paul says. And then what's the answer? Well, it says in Philippians 4. 8, then whatever is pure, excellent, noble, dwell on these things. We're dwelling on the character of God as revealed in His Word, which is vast and amazing. And it's not just a memory verse here and there. It's a deep exposure and meditation. And I think meditation is maybe worth talking about to who God is.

Alex Clark (39:32)

Why is it a huge mistake for parents to allow their children to grow up identifying with a diagnosis?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (39:38)

Well, because it becomes the conception of who they are. Right? So, for instance, you know, like my friend was telling me about, you know, their kid couldn't pay attention in school after Covid. Greg Gifford talks about this in his book Lies My Therapist Told Me, but he said, after Covid, my son had been homeschooled for two years. They said that he wasn't sitting still. They wanted to give him pills for ADHD because first of all, it makes the teacher's life easier. And there might, you know, again, he says that this used to be just called ants in your pants. And they wanted to be able to give him a tutor, but in order to give him a tutor, they had to give him the diagnosis. But then this kid is going to grow up his entire life saying, I have ADHD and he's like 6 years old. So you become your diagnosis to your point. Carl Truman talks about this a little bit in the rise of the modern self. The rise and fall of the modern self. Just that's based on, you know, even in the sexual realm, people say, I am my sexual identity. Sexual expression used to be a behavior, but now it's an identity. Same thing with diagnosis. It's not just an exhibition of who I am or what I'm feeling emotionally. I am ocd, I am adhd. And so it allows the culture or a survey based test to define your identity rather than God in his word. Because you're not your diagnosis, you're a child of God.

Alex Clark (40:53)

So how should a parent respond if their, if their kid is given some kind of label like that?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (40:58)

I would say with a level of discernment. This is right where like, if I'm talking with a parent, I would say like, hey, I would make sure that you're, you're walking with your child, making sure that they're not overly leaning into that type of understanding of their diagnosis, that they know who they are, that as a child of God, that they're loved by God. Because the world's gonna definitely feed them a certain, a certain agenda. So I would just make sure that they're protecting their child, bottom line, protecting their child from themself. Right? Because people say like, I want my children to just, I want them to be free. I want them to live with an open mind. No, no, no. That's the problem with the world. You want to close their mind, guard their minds. That's why it says over and over again in the scripture, guard their minds. Proverbs 4, 23. Watch over your heart, the seed of your emotions. It could be interchangeably with your mind with all diligence, for from it flow the springs of life. Meaning you don't want your kid to grow up thinking what the world feeds them. You want to feed them the truth of God's word and for their understanding of their identity to be rooted in what God says, not their teacher or their psychologist says. There's an element where, yeah, we, I think those, sometimes those tools and those resources and those medical professionals can be helpful, but you just don't want them to become their diagnosis.

Alex Clark (42:07)

What do you think the biblical response is to so many kids being labeled neurodivergent?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (42:11)

When you say neurodivergent, what do you mean by that?

Alex Clark (42:14)

You scroll through TikTok and it's like every kid who has any sort of quirk.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (42:19)

Yeah.

Alex Clark (42:20)

Difference.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (42:21)

Yeah.

Alex Clark (42:22)

They're somehow on the spectrum. Right. And I mean you have the, the very obvious kids who are, are being diagnosed with autism that are head banging and non verbal, whatever, that's obvious. But then it almost seems like any little like, oh, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed with stamp collecting. Yeah, well, you're autistic. It's like kind of this overarching, like we're just giving everybody this label because it's better to be perceived as any sort of different than it is to just be normal. It's almost like it's a crime to be normal.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (42:54)

There's a study done and I don't want to butcher the information, but it was based on a few years ago when everyone was saying they had Tourette's.

Alex Clark (43:01)

Yeah.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (43:01)

So it became like a theme on social media. And one of the Tourette's leading doctors came out and said, there's, there's no evidence that this is Tourette's. It's a social media phenomenon.

Alex Clark (43:10)

Social contagion.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (43:11)

Yeah, yeah. Like Tourette's is real. But then everyone was like, I also like to just shout expletives randomly, so I must have Tourette's as well. You know, I went to the doctor when I was 20 because I couldn't sleep at night. I had a hard time. I was a double major, accounting and finance. I went to the doctor and did a sleep study. They told me I had Asperger's. And it's one of those things where I'm like, I don't know if I have Asperger's. But it was just based on me telling him I don't sleep well. And everybody's on the spectrum to a certain degree. But they asked me, why can't you sleep at night? And I said, hey, you know what I said? Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night and I forget how many career rebounds Charles Barkley had. And I have to know the answer and I'll freak out until I have. So I'll wake up and I'll Google my phone. And within three minutes, they said, you have Asperger's. And it was one of those things where you're going, hey. Still to this day, it's like a joke. I don't know if I, you know, but then there's people I grew up with that are definitely autistic. It's a real thing, but it just goes to the ease of which people say, like, it's diagnosable in the sense of, you know, neurodivergent. There. It's a social contagion where people are saying things online. And then it's being adopted at a broad general level without any sort of empirical data.

Alex Clark (44:22)

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Pastor Johnny Artavanis (47:03)

I think to a degree it can be more harmful than helpful. And we've talked about this a little bit, but I do think that sin, sin is ruining marriages. So you'd have to say that. Meaning like you can't blame your therapist for ruining a marriage. Marriage is, it's not a cultural construct. It's God made and God ordained for human joy and human flourishing. So God makes marriage and people go into marriage thinking that it's something that they can get out of when it's not working out. So a flawed view, I would say. I wouldn't blame therapy necessarily, or psychology. I would go into. I would start the conversation by saying a flawed view of marriage is why so many marriages fail. People go into marriage not understanding what it is. Biblically speaking, it's God's gift to mankind. It is the central metaphor in the Bible. The Bible starts with a marriage, it ends with a marriage. And the central metaphor of the Bible is Jesus and his bride, which is the local church. And so I think when you distort, or I would just say bare minimum, diminish the construct of marriage, it's being culturally redefined. It can be anything you want. People, you know, you know, celebrities that have been married five times. I don't know if that's because they've gone to therapy. It's because they've entered marriage with a wrong view of what it is. And the ripple effect of that is massive. And that includes counselors and therapists and psychologists saying this is a marriage you should get out of.

Alex Clark (48:23)

When you're talking about marriage and how it is supposed to be built around the biblical definition of love, how would you describe that?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (48:30)

Well, it's not, it's not my definition. It's God's definition of love is synonymous with sacrifice. Right? That's Ephesians, right? Like husbands love your wives. And then it says, as Christ loved the church, Ephesians 5:22 says, Wives, be subject to your own husband as to the Lord, for the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church. So people get on their heels about this. Okay, are you saying that I have to listen and submit to my, my husband? But then it says here, well, the husband you're submitting to Five25Husbands love your wives. Just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her. So what is that love? Well, it's sacrifice, it's humility, it's service, it's others mindedness. You know, we talk about love in a contemporary sense. We're often talking about infatuation and attraction. And attraction is not a bad thing. There should be a level of attraction. Genesis 24 is the longest chapter in Genesis and it's all about Isaac and Rebekah and how he thought she was beautiful. So there's nothing wrong with that, but it's just in the sense of biblical love is you're going into it not saying what is she going to offer me, but what can I offer and how can I love her and vice versa. And so it's not 50, 50. And I remember my dad saying this at my wedding when he married me. It's a hundred, a hundred year to love each other as Christ loved the church. Well, how did Jesus love me? Paul just says it. He gave his life for me.

Alex Clark (49:48)

Has therapy contributed to the feminization of marriage? So encouraging this emotionality, which is typically seen as a more female trait, over the man leading and, you know, having responsibility for the relationship, et cetera.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (50:05)

I think that therapy could have an influence on it. I think the feminist movement has a big influence on it. I think the Christian world has conflated, you know, gender roles and just categorically in a sense.

Alex Clark (50:16)

Do you think more women are leading their marriages than men today?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (50:18)

Sadly, yeah. I think there is an. There's a reason why in Genesis, again, not my idea. But when sin enters the world, it says in Genesis 3:15, I will put enmity. God says, it's between you and the woman. Meaning the first thing that happens, the first thing that is affected as the fall of man is the relationship between the man and the woman. He says in verse 16 to the woman, he said, I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth. In pain you will bring forth children, yet your desire will be for your husband. Meaning, one of the first ramifications of sin entering the world is that you're going to want the authority that God gave to the man. And that's something you see on page three of your Bible, and it's something that you've seen throughout human history for the last 6,000 years. And I think part of the command is given for husbands to lead their wives is because the sin of Adam in the garden was passivity. Meaning we talk about, you know, it was Eve that gave it to Adam, but Adam, man's default position is passivity. And then women, it says here, are going to want what they cannot have, which is leaders and ruling over their husband. So, yes, but I would say that's part of the. What you see just from like, a hard wiring of sin. And because men by nature, for the most part, not saying there's no masculine men and there's no guys that really want to lead, I'm saying by nature, one of the default positions, the sinful positions of men is to be passive. And one of the default positions of women at times, it says here in Genesis is going to be to rule.

Alex Clark (51:47)

When men in marriage are constantly told to be more vulnerable, be more emotionally attuned. Is that biblical or is that therapeutic fluff?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (51:55)

People grew up in different. There's different spectrums. Meaning, like, I've never seen my dad cry once in my life, once. I don't even know if he's ever been sad. The saddest I've ever seen him is when Kobe tore his Achilles or something like that. Like, I think I've never seen him truly sad or emotional. I think to be more vulnerable. I think guys are known for being a little bit more stoic and thinking that's manly. Meaning, like, if I suppress my emotions, then that's the true testament of a man. I would say that is unbiblical, actually, because you could look at David, and I mentioned David. David is a guy who literally slaughters giants. And he's writing, he's saying things in the Psalms that I want to Feel comfortable saying, like, God, I'm so sorrowful all the day long I'm sitting here in my tears and where are you, God? And it's like, man, I can't imagine saying that to my wife. But there's biblical precedent for a man's man, a dude, a straight up dude, saying I'm sad, you know, over and over and over again. I don't think guys feel very comfortable doing that. So I think there's probably an element where a lot of it has to do with therapeutic fluff, but a lot of it has to do with this cultural pressure. I think there's a truth in the cultural pressure of masculinity means that you suppress all emotion. Biblically, we see that Jesus wept bitterly, right? And I was preaching on this a couple months ago at my church. John 11:35 means when it says that Jesus wept, it wasn't like he had a tear going down his cheek. It was profuse weeping at the grave of a friend. And whatever your idea is of Jesus, you have to include the category that he wept big time tears at the grave of Lazarus. And for me, that was like convicting. Because my wife has never seen me cry. I don't think it's because I'm suppressing vulnerability. I think it's just. I think it's part of my personality. There are other people that cry and feel guilty about it or less manly about it, and I would just say, hey, the Lord Jesus Christ, who otherwise upholds of the universe by the word of his power, wept. Straight up wept. And so it's not a bad thing. I think when you say vulnerability, I would say one of the things that needs to happen more amongst men and women in marriage is transparency. Meaning, like, I struggle with this, I'm anxious about this, I'm thinking about this. And that's what facilitates and cultivates a real relationship, right? Where it's a partnership in marriage. Because when God provides Eve to Adam, it's a helpmate. And some guys don't let their wives in at all, thinking that they just have to bear it on their shoulders. Where one of the things I'm growing in, even with my own relationship with my wife Katie, who's the best, is just saying, you can pray for me this way. That's not me being emotional. It's just me actually utilizing the greatest gift that God has given to me outside of the Lord Jesus Christ, which is my wife.

Alex Clark (54:26)

If a Christian couple is on the brink of divorce, how is a biblical counselor going to help them differently than A secular therapist.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (54:34)

Well, I would say a biblical counselor is going to say, has there been any infidelity here? Right. Because Jesus is clear in Matthew, divorce is not an option except for infidelity. So bottom line, that's gonna be the first question out of my mouth is, okay, did someone cheat on someone?

Alex Clark (54:50)

Now here's my question for you. Do you think infidelity only means literal penetration? Or could infidelity mean I cheat on her with alcohol, I cheat on her with video games, I cheat on her with gambling? Like, how do you think the Bible defines infidelity?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (55:06)

There's a guy named Steve Schwartz that talks about this a little bit. He's more. He's a biblical counselor. And he kind of draws also some elements of abuse into this under the banner of neglect as seen in Corinthians. So, like, abuse situations, neglect, which would be like, there's no presence in there in that marriage. And so I think there can be broader scopes of it, but that is the category given by the Lord Jesus Christ. So you have to start there, meaning like, okay, what's going on? And I met with someone recently and they said, they're just not the one. And I said, well, they are the one because you married them. Right. And what? God is united like no man tear asunder. Like, this is a covenant you made before God and these witnesses. I marry people on a, I don't know, a monthly basis. And I say, hey, listen here, as you make these vows, they are not only vows made to one another, these are vows made to God and marriage is important. So I start there by just saying, hey, you've already committed. So if someone says, and I get that often, they're just not the one. It's just not working out. That's 70% of them. Right, right. Then you'd say, well, did someone have infidelity? You mentioned video games. And I'd be like, okay, well, dude, get off the video games. That is different than maybe, let's use, I would say, deep seated pornography. I would say that is a valid, legitimate reasoning behind divorce. Because I would say, well, you do.

Alex Clark (56:24)

Think that's a valid reasoning behind divorce?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (56:25)

Yeah. Like if you're addicted to pornography. Webcam, chatgirls. Yeah. I think that there's groundings there for divorce if that's a habitual pattern of sin. And 1 Corinthians 6 says, People always say that sexual sin is just like any other sin. I struggle with pornography or this person struggles with gossip. What's the difference? Well, the difference is actually massive because The Bible says in 1 Corinthians 6, Every other sin is committed outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. All sin separates us from God. All sin is offensive to God. But sexual sin is unique in particular in the sense that if you're a Christian, your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, and you're bringing the Holy Spirit into something that Jesus Christ came to die for. And the Bible itself says this is unlike any other sin. So pornography would be different than video games or even gambling. But I think that there's an element where the biblical counselor, in contrast to maybe a therapist, and I don't want to be, like, unfair to the therapist, because I think it's like, that's a huge term. There might be people under the banner of therapy that probably practice more what biblical counselors practice, but they just still call themselves therapists, Marriage and family therapist or whatever. But where you begin has to be the word of God. What does God say about this marriage? And what does God say about divorce? And is there groundings here for divorce? There are people at my church that want to get remarried, and I want to make sure, hey, was your divorce before you wanted to get remarried? Was it legitimate? So I have to track down pastors at the churches they came from, and sometimes I'm confused.

Alex Clark (57:53)

This is a good question, because, okay, so I'm single, want to be married. Hasn't happened yet. And so I'm 32, so I'm. Now I'm getting into this age range where so many people are like, well, would you be open to dating a man who's been divorced or has children? And I'm like, almost probably no, because how many of these divorces are actually biblical divorces? So how would you define, then who is somebody that would biblically be okay to remarry and who isn't?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (58:24)

There's maybe a slight difference on if that happened before they knew the Lord. Right. So there might be an element where, hey, I got divorced and I didn't know the Lord, we both didn't know the Lord, and this is something I've repented of.

Alex Clark (58:36)

But then would. Would they have to either stay single for the rest of their lives or only remarry their spouse that they got divorced from?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (58:44)

I would say there's mixed opinions there. Yeah. We were actually navigating this about a month ago. One of the guys, the pastors that I work with, we were talking about the same situation.

Alex Clark (58:52)

Okay. Yeah. It's very interesting.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (58:53)

It is an interesting thing. I think if it's a believer. You're going, paul is pretty clear. Like, they're. There are people that are available to be remarried. Meaning one of the first questions I ask someone that was divorced and wants to marry someone else that was divorced. I say, are they available to be married? Is that even an option?

Alex Clark (59:09)

Do you mean emotionally?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (59:10)

No. Like biblically speaking.

Alex Clark (59:12)

Okay, so what is that?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (59:13)

So I do ask that question. Was there biblical grounds? And there have been times where I've said, hey, I'm not gonna marry you. Well, that happened recently. I'm not gonna marry you because you broke up with this person cause they said they weren't the one. And you broke up with this person cause they said they weren't the one. There was. Was there infidelity? No. They're a great person. They love the Lord. It just wasn't a right fit. You were married for, you know, 17 years. It just wasn't the right fit. I would say they don't have biblical grounds for remarriage. That might be different. If you're saying, hey, you met a. Let's call him Jake. Jake's awesome. He's 34. His wife left him because she went off with another guy and he divorced her because she was unfaithful. He is legitimately available to get remarried. And I would pray that Jake does get remarried, especially for the sake of, let's call it his three little kids.

Alex Clark (59:56)

What should you do if your marriage is crumbling and you want to seek out biblical counseling but your spouse doesn't?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (60:01)

Am I the woman or the man at this point, I'm a guy.

Alex Clark (60:04)

I would say for my audience, put your shoes in the woman, because mostly it's going to be women listening.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (60:11)

Well, it says in Corinthians you're to pray for your husband. I would say, before you're trying to get help from the outside, make sure you're asking the power of God's Holy Spirit to help you to navigate this with you. It says to win him over without even a word. So there's an. There's a place for that. You can't just deny that because it's written in the scripture that you could win him over. Meaning that your love for God and the transformation that he's bringing about in your life is so obvious, it becomes a question in the mind of your husband. What's really happening with this individual? Let's say this. If that guy's an unbeliever, I would say, and claims to be an unbeliever. That's kind of what your Your options are you're to pray for him. Like, he might not want to go see your pastor because he doesn't believe in pastors or churches or God's word or anything that might be different than a guy that. Let's go back to my guy. Jake and Molly, they go to church together and they shake people's hands and they serve in children's together and at home, they are just a disaster. They don't get along. Molly really wants to go see a pastor or biblical counselor. Jake says that would be an embarrassment. I don't want people to know about it. I think at that point, as a woman, you can confide in the people in your church. You could confide in one of the women or your pastor and just saying, hi, we need to meet. This happened a couple weeks ago at our church. We call the guy and say, hey, we'd love to meet with you and want to talk. And we want to be a friend to you and a resource to you and nothing to be ashamed of. And I think, too, therapy has its own, you know, connotations. Counseling has its own connotations. That's why I would say as a pastor, I counsel, but I'm not a counselor.

Alex Clark (61:46)

How do you counsel a couple who has been told by therapists, you just need to communicate better? And, you know, as a pastor, this is a heart change issue.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (61:53)

A lot of times it's a heart change issue on one of the parties at least. And I always know, hey, God's will for your life is to be unified, right? As a married couple, God's will for this marriage is not to be bitter. It's not to be tearing each other down. That's just explicit in the scripture, meaning that you're to forgive one another just as God in Christ has forgiven you. Sometimes this guy might be legitimately wrong and she is still not forgiving him. Right? So this goes back to the thing about bitterness. Well, all it would tell her he's never going to be able to succeed as long as you're still bitter at him. And she would say, well, he never said you're sorry. And I would say, well, Christ forgave you, you know, like, you've never apologized for everything God has forgiven you of. So I think even in the counseling world, I would say, going back to the biblical counseling, there used to be even this thought in biblical counseling that I can't forgive someone if they haven't apologized. And I would not agree with that. Meaning there's no reconciliation without repentance. I would say well, listen, you're harboring bitterness, which the Bible says is a corrosive in your soul. And you, you're being prideful. The Bible says that you're to love your wife as Christ loved the church. And so sometimes it goes back and forth. And when you say, like it's a communication issue, a lot of times it's a heart issue. Right? Because even out of the heart, the mouth speaks. So what's not being communicated or what is being communicated is a derivative and a product of what's happening at the heart level, which is a reflection of where our own hearts are individually before the Lord. And then oftentimes they have two different relationships with God. Whereas Biblically, in Ephesians 5, the husband is to lead his family in the Lord and to wash his wife in the Word. And I think a lot of women want this. They want their husbands to lead them in the Lord and then they become bitter that he's not. And so I think it would just be assessing the situation. But it could be any number of things. It could be guys can work very hard occupationally and be very lazy familially. Meaning like a guy could say, I'm a hard worker and I come home and she says, he gives me my leftovers. Basically he works all day and talks to everyone, but when he comes home, he just turns on the TV and he disengages. I would tell that guy, listen, this is job number one. My friend, my friend Harry says if you fail at home, you fail everywhere. Right? Because this is your greatest ministry, this is your greatest priority, this is your greatest legacy.

Alex Clark (64:08)

Well, and I think some high achieving men too can kind of get mixed up. That the way that you would lead a team at work or manage a team at work or speak to those other men, you know, employees of yours, is it. It looks differently how you would talk to your wife or your future wife, you know, how you deal with her, how you relate to her, how you, you tackle problems.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (64:30)

And to be candid, that's like one of the things I have on with my wife. Meaning like, I'm not, like, I'm not God's answer to marriage, you know, Meaning like, my wife and I, we have been married for six years, so we're not like rookies, but we're not definitely not seasoned vets. One of the things I asked my wife the other day, what would you want me to work on? What's one thing you see in my life? And I want to ask her these questions. We went out to dinner. It was at our anniversary, I said, what's one thing you want me to work on? And one of the themes that she's told me is I want you to, you know, I want you to be more proactive and asking me these questions. We do a lot of ministry together, you know, which may be unique to us, meaning, like we're together a lot, but that's not necessarily intentional time. And so sometimes I can view her as a partner, but not treat her as my wife and my spouse and prioritize that romantic relationship or whatever that might be. So I'm growing, right? And part of that is communication, being like. But it's also the humility to respond. Where if my wife says, I want to go out more because I'm always with people as a pastor, I'm out and about. I speak, I travel, I'm with my church. When I come home, I kind of want to be home. I've become more introverted. My wife is with three babies all day long. She wants to get out and she says, I'd love to spend more time and do that. And so part of the way I love her is by going, okay, let's do that, let's make that a priority. Let's get a babysitter, whatever. And because I'm commanded in scripture by God to love my wife, one of the ways I practically love her is by accommodating her desires that are very legitimate, which is I want to spend time. I think it just, it comes from going like, first of all, I'm a work in process and in progress and so is she. And we both respond to each other in humility. We pray for each other. It's to a degree, it's not that complicated. You know, people really overcomplicate it being. And people also set it up for failure in the sense of. I remember when we were getting married, people were like, like, get ready for your first year of marriage. It's gonna be like a knockdown, drag out, brawl, you know? And you're like, man, my goodness, what am I gearing up for? And I think there's elements where you're getting to know someone that's different than you. I remember my dad just saying, johnny, like, your marriage is death to self. And not in the sense where like, oh man, I'm married, I gotta die to myself today. It's just me, like, by nature. My dad told me this when I was single. The longer you're single. Cause I got married at 27. The longer you're single, the more you are going to get into a rut of being self minded 100. Right. So you have to consciously develop a system of thought where you're thinking about others needs and not your own. Because when you get married and then you have kids, your whole life is going to be about other people. I used to think that was true three years ago and then I had three more babies and. Right. Like so like now my life is, it's about others. Like if life was about Johnny or Devanis, my marriage would be really hard.

Alex Clark (67:24)

Yeah. And I mean I've said that too in past relationships of like, look like I'm coming into this with, you know, 30 plus years of learned behaviors and patterns. You're coming into this with 30 plus years of learned behaviors and patterns. I need grace. I need patience. That I am. I am learning for the first time in my life how to relate to and keep in mind someone else's needs and you know, other than my own. Like I've never had to do that before. And you're the same. So I have to extend that grace to you. You know, it's not like I'm just gonna know how to do this. I won't know how to be a wife upon being a wife. You're not going to know how to be a husband immediately upon being husband. It's a process. It's like it's something that we have to do together and have grace. And so yeah, that's like you saying that is something that's been definitely on my heart and mind.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (68:14)

And for a Christian I would say too, like, my goal in my marriage is not just to be a better husband, it's to be a better Christ follower. God's will for my life is to love the Lord God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength. As I grow in my love for the Lord, you'll learn how to be a better person. I will grow in my ability to love and serve my wife. So I think sometimes people put the cart before the horse and they're like, I want to stop this in my marriage or start this in my marriage. But there's a reason why they're called the fruits of the Spirit in Galatians because those are expressions of what God's spirit is doing in you. Love, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness. Right. Those are traits I want in my marriage. Gentleness and self control. Well, those aren't things I pursue individually. I'm not pursuing gentleness as an end. I'm pursuing to be more like Christ, to be filled with the Spirit and as I'm filled with the spirit. Gentleness is an expression. In my marriage.

Alex Clark (69:12)

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Pastor Johnny Artavanis (71:32)

For sure. And I think a lot of people miss this in regards to the mind, and I mentioned this before, the sum and substance of the Christian life is the mind. Proverbs 23:7 says, As a man thinks, so he is. Meaning everything in our life is the product of. You mentioned the renewing of our mind. Meaning that's something that we have to prioritize so we can say I am something. Meaning like I am the defiant disorder, right? That's like a real thing that teens are getting diagnosed with. Opposition defiance disorder or something like that. Meaning like they don't respond well to authority and they call it a disorder or an illness. I would maybe just say, well, that might be a pride problem. It might be a self control problem. Proverbs says, like a city without walls, as a man without self control. That's an expression we just talked about as the fruit of the spirit. So some of these things are legitimate sin issues that are being masqueraded as illnesses. To your point and the Bible, all of our growth into the image of Christ is the product of our mind. And I think this is super important. And I don't think you can have a conversation about anxiety or depression or fear without talking about the mind. When Jesus is engaging his followers, he is wanting them to think. He's wanting to engage their minds. That's the great physician's remedy. He's drawing their attention, as we mentioned, from the lesser than to the greater than. He's saying, look at the birds, look at the sparrows. He's drawing them to think. I mentioned Ephesians 4 and being renewed in the spirit of your mind. Romans 12. It says that prior to coming to Christ, we are, in Ephesians, hostile in mind. It says we're darkened in mind in Corinthians and in Titus. So everything that happens in Colossians, we're to set our minds. Every growth into the image of Christ, every growth in our trust, is a product of the mind. And so I think that therapy becomes a crutch where it can. It becomes a crutch where people don't necessarily think about their great duty of fixing their minds on the Lord Jesus Christ, his character, and asking God to renew our minds. Because if you ask me, I want to grow in my trust in the Lord and want to become more like him. I would say, well, how do you do that? You don't just pray, you know, God help me. Saying God, take away my anxiety is a lot different than the prayer. God, as I feast my mind on the precious truth of your word, would you please permeate my thoughts, my reflections, my considerations, so that even in the moment of my mental wondering, I'm reminded of your sovereignty as seen in Psalm 103, that the Lord has established his throne in the heavens and his sovereignty rules. Overall, I'm reminded of your love and you're meditating on those realities, meditating being a key word. That's how the Psalms begin. How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, nor stand in the path of sinners, nor sit in this he discoffers, but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and he meditates on this day and night. Day and night is a merism, which just means all the time. And so I think that priority has been dismissed from a lot of churches and a lot of Christians so that they kind of sprinkle truth here and there, but they don't become people that feast on the word of God as a habit. And that's what David says, who is deeply anxious was the only thing that buoyed his heart amidst the despairs and anxieties of life.

Alex Clark (74:34)

What is your take on people who believe schizophrenia is a form of demonic possession?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (74:39)

I would say people need to understand demons. First of all, I would hesitate to say that it's always that and never that. Right. So for an example, you can kind of throw demons on onto any label, you know, meaning. Like, I remember when I was in a camp setting, there was a kid that was going around and he was going up to people, he was going up to young men saying, you have the demon of pornography. And the guys would say, yeah. And he said, well, meet me at the lake tonight. I'm going to cast out that daemon. And all these young men, hundreds of them, were gathering, like, at midnight in the middle of the, you know, at the lake. And they were having like an exorcism ceremony because he was saying, you've been possessed by a demon. Now, that was wacky and wrong and weird, and the guy was a kook. With that said, I think there is definitely a demonic influence in the rampant nature, that there is a Brothel in the pocket of every 12 year old on planet Earth. Right. Especially in a Western context. You don't have to walk into a strip club. You can just go on social media now. So I think that is demonically influenced because one of the things David Helm says is the way Satan operates is to make sin seem normal and righteousness seem strange. That is demonically influenced. Satan is a master strategist. Jesus secured the victory at the cross, but it says that Satan prowls like a roaring lion seeking to destroy people. And he does that in a myriad of different ways. So I think that the demonic world, Satan is real and powerful. I think when people say schizophrenia is a form of demonic oppression or possession, I would say, yeah, in some cases that that might be true. It says, but one of the main ways that Satan works in Second Corinthians is that he blinds the minds of the unbelieving from seeing the light of the glory of Christ. Meaning Satan's main strategy is in blinding, corrupting, deceiving and polluting minds. That's not my take. That's the Bible's explicit reality. Satan works by blinding minds. That's why he's called the God of this world, the Prince of the Air. That's why he, that's what he does is pollute minds. Schizophrenia would be an example. So I would say, yeah, maybe, I would say for sure that's a reality. Not always, not never. It's reality. But you could say the same thing about anything. In regards to demonic oppression. Satan isn't necessarily just running brothels, he's running churches. Right. Because he's articulating. And I think MacArthur said that at one point in the sense of he's sneaky as well. And so when you look at Shutter island and you go, that's demonic, you'd go, yeah, there's truth in that. But Satan is operating also in, in an Ivy League context, getting you to doubt the validity of truth and making people addicted to their smartphones and just inundating their life with noise. So he's a strategist and he's a schemer and he lurks in different ways.

Alex Clark (77:22)

What is the role of the church body supposed to be when it comes to helping members overcome mental health struggles?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (77:27)

I think overcome is the key word. Right. So you just said, what's mental health struggles? I think first of all, defining mental health, that's your emotional and behavioral and social well being. Right. So it's also a nebulous term. I've mentioned this just briefly, but the Bible uses that Same word, meeramnao, to describe both a good and godly concern and a sinful anxiety and worry. So Paul talks about Timothy in Philippians, and he says, I'm going to send Timothy to you, for there is no one else that is concerned for your welfare. That word for concern, there is merimnao. In that context, it is a good and godly thing. Then three chapters later, he says, be merimno for anything. Don't be anxious about anything. It's the same word, merimno. So you have to ask the question, when does a good and godly concern become a sinful worry and anxiety? Because the church's role is to help people understand God's Word and to understand how even very legitimate cares and concerns can turn into a sinful anxiety when we do not, 1 Peter 5:7, cast those cares and concerns onto God and trust in Him. So I think overcome is the key word because all the things we're talking about with medication are typically to manage the issue and not to overcome them. And that's the word you used. So I think, first of all, understanding that, hey, I'd want to know, what are you worried about? I'm worried about X, Y and Z. Well, hey, that's a legitimate thing, providing for your family, food on the table. Yeah. I mean, provision is an element. It says in Timothy that if I don't provide for my family, I'm worse than an unbeliever. So like, like the battle for bread is good. But when that caring concern maybe is, I use the analogy in my book, pooled rather than channeled to God, that becomes a sinful habit. And I would say, well, stress and pressure, if that's driving you to go knock on doors and get a job and be diligent and all those things, that's good. But now that's become so crippling and paralyzing. Corrie Ten Boom used to say that worry is like racing an engine without letting in the clutch. You burn energy and you go nowhere. You're not doing anything about it. You're just dwelling on the stresses and pressures of life rather than on the character of God and His promise to provide for you. This is actual functional atheism. God has promised to love you. He's promised to care for you. He's done all these things as revealed in His Word. Has he ever not been faithful? No. We sing Great is Thy Faithfulness. You're actually, this is an offense to God's character because you're saying, God, you're not who you Say you are. And I would want people to understand that to a degree. And then I would say dwell on these elements of God's character. Yes. And if needed, to consult a physician, all those things. But, but I've said it already, but God's goal for your life is not just to remove anxiety or fear. It's to replace that anxiety and fear with trust and peace. And that's what Paul calls supernatural. He says the peace of God which surpasses all understanding. So there's also an element in all of this where if I'm talking to someone who's anxious, I want to make sure that they've been reconciled to God through faith in Jesus Christ. Because also, if someone's trying to earn their salvation, if they're banking on anything they've done, they can never receive the perfect peace of God. So the gospel, Jesus dying for our sin, being resurrected from the grave, finishing the work that is necessary for him and I to have Right standing that understanding. I mean, when you talk about the church, the church is very confused about what the Gospel is. And so it's also no wonder why people are so anxious. Meaning that if people aren't sure about their greatest need in life being met, that is the fountain and foundation of all true peace.

Alex Clark (81:03)

Where is there confusion amongst the church of what the gospel is?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (81:07)

Well, Ligonier did the state of theology thing a few years ago, and it was like a true false question. I could be wrong on the statistic, but it was like, I'm saved by grace, but I also contribute to my salvation, True or false. And I think it was like 60% in the evangelical church said true. Whoa. Yeah, it was alarming statistic, and I could be off. You'll have to check it out. But Ligonier released it and Lifeway and Barna does other stats in that regard. But meaning, like, if you're talking to anybody and they're explaining the Gospel, I do this with membership meetings at our church. I say, articulate to me when you got saved. And people say things like, well, I did this and I did this and I did this. That's just the way people talk. We've removed sin in our communication of the gospel. I would say by and large, as a culture, meaning you just throw out the gospel. And it's like, hey, if you want someone that loves you, come to Jesus. But there's no mention of God's justice, there's no mention of God's holiness. There's no mention of the wrath that Jesus bore for you so that you can be reconciled to God. And that's all underneath the banner and guise of, let's just tell them that God's a God of love. But then people still are depressed, as an example, following that commitment to Christ because they still get guilty about their sin. They still feel depressed about the things in their life or things in their, you know, their past or their present. Because no one's ever said, yes, God does hate sin. He is a righteous judge. He has indignation, Psalm 711, towards the wicked every single day. And one of the things that Jesus did on the cross, why he says, father, let this cup pass, is because the cup that he bore at the cross was the full measure of God's wrath towards your sin. Eric Thomas said, my friend, if you believe Satan wins. If you believe that God has paid for 99.9% of your sin, and the full measure of God's wrath was poured out on Jesus, and that's what he bore for you, because he loves you and he's removed your sin as far as the east as from the west, and he's made your slate clean. But not just clean. It says in 2 Corinthians 5, he's given you his righteousness. I think people's understanding of the gospel is so shallow, typically not in saying all churches are bad. I'm just saying when I ask someone on an elevator, I say, if all you had in the gospel was the forgiveness of your sin, would you go to heaven? Because people say, God, forgive me of my sin. And they would say, yeah. And I say, no a million times no. Because it says in Hebrews, without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. And in the Gospel, what God accomplishes is not just the removal of our sin, but the transference or theologically the imputation of his righteousness. And even that idea that now God looks at you as if you had lived the righteous life of Jesus Christ. It says in John 17, he loves you as much as he loves his one and only son, Jesus. All of these doctrinal truths, which doctrinal is sometimes seen as like a boogeyman word, those are things that give me peace and stability. And I think the church, going back to your original question, how do they help him overcome. Well, it is again, a whole Bible. It takes a whole Bible to make a whole Christian. And if I want someone to be deeply rooted, going back to Psalm 1, he shall be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water. Sometimes I just ask people, are you a sapling? Are you blown in the wind? Are you Moving to and fro. Do you want to be an oak? Do you want to be firmly planted? Well, you're going to need to know God's word as. As revealed in the pages of Scripture, understand who the gospel is. That's why even in my book considered the finding perfect peace in the character of God. It felt out of place. But I began after the diagnosis of anxiety, and I talked through physical roots of anxiety, spiritual roots of anxiety, but then just to begin by doing a chapter on the gospel, because you can't circumvent that, and a lot of people do. They're looking for answers to their anxiety without ever addressing the. And I'm not saying that you won't struggle with anxiety if you're a genuine believer and know the gospel. I'm just saying that's a place where definitely churches should start.

Alex Clark (84:38)

If you had 30 seconds to talk to a parent who's considering putting their teenager, who's struggling in secular therapy, what would you tell them?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (84:45)

They're not going to provide an answer. You know, it's just going to. It's going to be endless in the sense of you're signing them up for a journey with no end. You're putting them on. There's a cruise line that markets their cruise line by saying, it's a cruise to nowhere. You get on board.

Alex Clark (85:01)

So true.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (85:01)

You get on board, you pack your bags, it starts at a port, and you have no idea where you're going.

Alex Clark (85:08)

Why are so many people saying, oh, I've been in therapy since I was in middle school? Like, it never ends.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (85:13)

Literally, it doesn't end. And I think I'd want people to know that. One of the things that's tough, too, is just the whole environment. You're talking about a son, you know, like, it's hard to. I'm not trying to get on, like, a hobby horse when you're sending kids away. You know, the kids in my neighborhood could get picked up by a bus and then dropped off by a bus. They're gone 11 hours a day. Like, it's a long time to be outside of, like, someone that really, really loves and cares for them and is willing to be patient with them. I have three daughters. One of them is different from the other. She doesn't sit down. She's nuts. Like, she likes to climb. She does things like, there'd be an element where I'm like, hey, we want to be extra intentional with her. We want to spend more time with her. But often, not always the system, which those kids would be plugged into in the. The world would be. They're a problem, they're a nuisance. They must be treated. And I'm not saying there aren't awesome teachers. One of the things that I tell my church is, hey, one of the greatest mission fields you can go into is a public school. Like, go be a literature teacher and shine for Christ. But.

Alex Clark (86:17)

But you're telling the adults that, not the kids.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (86:19)

Yeah, yeah.

Alex Clark (86:20)

Kids don't have to take on that burden of being the salt and light.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (86:23)

No, yeah, I don't. I think that just in general, like, I wouldn't want to sign him up for a cruise line going nowhere. I think there's probably other. Other things that might be present. There might just be a personality thing might be just different than you. They might have a lot of energy. And two, I'd want to make sure that they're understanding certain truth. And it's such a broad thing when you're saying therapy. It could be behavioral, it could be rebellion, it could be spiritual. Like if an 11 year old talks back to their mom, the Bible says that's disobedience. You are called to honor your father and mother. And one of the things I teach my daughters is God is the authority in the universe and God has delegated his authority to your dad. And I say, that's why you are to honor me. And I say, what are you sorry for? I'm sorry for dishonoring you. And I'm not trying to be ruthless. I love my daughters. They're the best. But in an unbelieving context, if, you know, one of my daughters said no, they would say, oh, that might be opposition, defiance, disorder. She doesn't like to listen to authority. No one likes to listen to authority.

Alex Clark (87:28)

Right.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (87:29)

I mean, truly speaking, there's. In the heart of man, there's always that defiance.

Alex Clark (87:34)

If you could offer one remedy to heal a sick culture, physically, emotionally or spiritually, what would it be?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (87:40)

Well, I don't want to be like the cliche pastor. I would say come to a saving relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ and deeply meditate upon the character of our God as revealed and his Word.

Alex Clark (87:48)

Where can people buy your book?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (87:50)

I think just anywhere books are sold. Amazon or Barnes and Noble. It's called Consider the Finding Perfect Peace in the Character of God. It was published by Zondervan last year and was grateful for the opportunity to write because I think it's worth mentioning that I don't write from the highbrow tower of expertise and arrival. Meaning I'm a dad. I'M a man, I have things that I worry about sometimes that worry is masses ambition or stress or pressure. But this was a process and a conversation. You know, like I I never want to seem like I'm God's gift to any one subject because the Lord is stretching and growing me, both maritally in my marriage with my family as a pastor, but thankful for the opportunity to write. But everything good in my book owes its origin to what's already in God's.

Alex Clark (88:34)

If people are living in the Nashville area and looking for a new church, what's the name of your church?

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (88:38)

Stonebridge Bible Church. We're just on the Franklin Brentwood border. But yeah, Stonebridge Bible Church. And it's pretty simple. I just teach the Bible and thankful that the Lord has brought people through the door and it's a rich privilege and a lot of the language and anything I would say I mentioned it already is different in this environment than it would be sitting down with someone at my church. And so I always want even when I mention statistics, Carl Truman says that we need to remind ourselves that statistics are actually compromised of individuals made in the image of God. And sometimes it's easy to look at the data and say the data. And I would just want to say no, those are real people that God loves and pastoring is helpful in that regard.

Alex Clark (89:15)

Pastor Johnny, thanks for coming on Culture Apothecary.

Pastor Johnny Artavanis (89:17)

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Alex.

Alex Clark (89:22)

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