← Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark
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- [00:00]
A
You live in six acre woods in the middle of nowhere and you're homeschooling. Where are your kids getting socialization?
- [00:06]
B
They have us.
- [00:07]
A
How does learning how to take down a tree house help your kid fair in the real world?
- [00:12]
B
There's so much math in building. So go talk to an architect and tell them that they're not using things in the real world. Look around like everything is built right.
- [00:19]
A
Are we a threat to people?
- [00:20]
B
I think it's bettering the world and I think that people should take a second look. If it makes you feel bad, then maybe there's something to that. Children naturally learn. They want to learn, they want to get better, they want to explore the world around them. So we want to give them space to do that and then let them kind of choose how they're learning.
- [00:59]
A
Taylor Moran is a homeschool mom of three boys who went from city slicker liberal to crunchy conservative in 2021. She believes that kids need a strong foundation of health and nature in order to learn and thinks fear is holding a lot of parents back from being good parents. Watch this episode on the real Alex Clark YouTube channel or culture Apothecary on Spotify. Every episode is made exclusively, exclusively with donations from listeners like you who believe in our mission to heal a sick culture physically, emotionally and spiritually. You can find the link to leave a tax deductible donation in our show notes or leave a five star review for free. To help us climb the podcast charts and become more discoverable. Please welcome co host of the Leaf and Learn podcast and creator of the Leaf and Learn Instagram Taylor Moran to Culture Apothecary. What have your kids never done that would shock people?
- [01:53]
B
They will never go to school. They will never have to raise their hand to ask permission to go to the bathroom, raise their hand to answer a question. They are communicating with us constantly, right? They are able to not so much argue with us, but I guess they are right. They're able to critical think in our household. It's not like we are the ultimate end all. It's everything's a communication. If we have to take time out of our day to explain things to them, like why we do things a certain way, we think that's really, really important. And like the base of education, right? To learn critical thinking rather than just everything is set and everything is the way it is because that's how you end up with what we had in 2020. Everyone just taking what the government said at face value. We don't want to raise adults like that we want to raise kids that can ask questions.
- [02:37]
A
So you disagree with the parenting philosophy of. Because I said so.
- [02:41]
B
Oh, absolutely. I was raised in a household like that, and it was so stifling. Right. And then you. It doesn't teach you to ask questions. It doesn't teach you to think for yourself. You just have to trust everything that's going on around you.
- [02:52]
A
How old are your kids?
- [02:53]
B
They are almost 7. 4 and 2.
- [02:56]
A
Your family lives off the grid in the middle of the forest in an abandoned boy Scout camp, and you were this liberal city slicker mom who then became this crunchy, conservative homeschooler.
- [03:10]
B
Part true, part true. We're not off grid. When we first moved there, we were. There was no electricity or plumbing hookups, but we quickly fixed that so we're not off grid. We do use the Internet. We. We do social media for a living. And the kids, we use technology as tools. Right. So we do use technology for education sometimes, but it's very, very limited. But, yeah, we moved from the city right after 2020. We started asking questions like a lot of people did.
- [03:35]
A
What were some of the questions that you were asking yourself?
- [03:38]
B
Why is this happening? Right. It was. It was so strange. And then also, are we equipped to take care of ourselves when the system is not going to take care of us? So we were in the city and there were so many, like, supply issues and. And you couldn't get a lot of things at the grocery store. Toilet paper was gone, meat was gone. We started really thinking, like, okay, are we. Are we safe? And then we were in Dallas specifically, and something happened right after Covid, on the tail end of it, we got hit with the Dallas winter storm.
- [04:05]
A
Oh, yeah, that huge ice storm, right?
- [04:06]
B
Yeah. It shut down everything for like a whole week. We didn't have, like, a fireplace. We didn't have a big truck with chains on the wheels. And then even if you could get somewhere, you couldn't get to a grocery store. They were all closed. So we started to think like, can we take care of ourselves? Can we take care of our family on our own? And the answer was no.
- [04:23]
A
Yeah. I had a rancher on A.J. richards, and he talked about how during the pandemic, we realized that if the grocery stores, if every Walmart were to shut down for only three days in America, we would run out of food. That's how quick it would happen. Because nobody knows how to get food or source food except for a huge grocery store like Walmart or Kroger and how dangerous that is to live. That way because if another crisis, if another pandemic, God forbid happens, nobody knows what to do. And then he talked about how the, the one ranch or farmer in your community that people do know of, they're going to try to kill them because everybody's going to want their food and their land. And so then it's just a free for all. And, and just how quickly things can dissolve.
- [05:06]
B
Oh, I can totally see that. That's like an apocalyptic thing that could, could really happen.
- [05:10]
A
So who was the first person between you and your husband to say, like, okay, we need to like radically change the way we're living?
- [05:17]
B
We had kind of decided, wanted to move out to the country, but we were kind of like taking our time. Like we were just going to have like a five year plan. We were going to save and, and here in that. And. But as soon as all that happened, I was pregnant with my second and I was like, no, this is, this is enough like that mother intuition, you know, that like, you need to protect your baby. You need to do something different. And so I was like, no, let's fast track this because we need to go. So we hadn't saved up like for the perfect farmhouse or perfect situation. We had a little bit saved up. So we started looking on Zillow, like, what can we find that we could actually afford right now? And found a six acre property that was an abandoned part of an abandoned boy scout camp for 110,000, which is really cheap for six acres. And we said, I said, let's go, let's go. It's okay. It's okay if it's not a house. It's okay if there's no plumbing or electricity. We'll figure it out.
- [06:06]
A
What was it like a little cabin?
- [06:07]
B
It was so. It was like what used to be the office building on the camp. And then it was, it was so run down. Like the floors were. You couldn't use the floors, could. The walls were bad. Like we had to just redo everything. And then there's a chapel, like an old church on the same property that we have to renovate still too.
- [06:23]
A
How long did the renovation process take?
- [06:25]
B
It's like still, still ongoing, but it took a while because we just did things as we could. We didn't come with this giant sum of money, you know, it was like, it was a sacrifice. We just like slept on mattresses on the floor for a while and just kind of chipped away. But like the first thing that we did was, you know, floors and walls and added, you know, plumbing and we have still, we have a really old shower. A lot of things that were just still there before that we're going to eventually replace, but it's just like piece by piece.
- [06:50]
A
Once you were living there, were you already homeschooling before you moved out there or that came later?
- [06:55]
B
We already knew we were going to homeschool, so. And we weren't always social media people when we were living in the city. I was actually going to be a teacher. So I got my student teaching certificate and I was substitute teaching and I was planning on starting to teach. I was pregnant with my first and I got into the classroom and looked around and I thought, this is not okay.
- [07:14]
A
Why wasn't it okay with you?
- [07:16]
B
It was stressful and you could just feel it in your body. Like the anxiety in the room. It was anx. It was like it caused me anxiety, anxiety. Everything was so fast paced and there wasn't learning going on and the children were miserable. I will never forget this conversation I had with one of the fifth grade girls. It was during lunch. Because if you're not doing good in a certain subject, they pull you from lunch, your only break, right, so that you can do extra of that. This girl was like top. She was the top reader. So gifted, like easy to talk to, had the best handwriting. She could write like crazy. She was, she knew what she was good at, right? It was writing, reading, speaking. She wasn't good at math. She was getting pulled from lunch, away from her friends to do extra math. And I remember sitting with her, like having to go through this because, you know, I couldn't control it. I was just like a student teacher and having her do these extra drills and she was just saying to herself, I'm stupid. Like she really thought she was stupid. And that, that radicalized me. I was, I saw myself in her too now because I think the same for you, right? You knew what you were good at from a very young age.
- [08:19]
A
Absolutely.
- [08:19]
B
It's built into us, I think that God has given like talents and interests and we know it from the start. And then what public school gets wrong? Is it like, no, no, no, no, no. You're not going to do extra of what you're good at. You don't get to practice those talents early, calm down, you know, and it has, you just like do the same thing as everyone else. It keeps you like under this bar. You can't excel past a certain level and you have to make sure that you're okay at everything, at all these pre prescribed things.
- [08:49]
A
And this was a Dallas Public school?
- [08:50]
B
It was Dallas area. Yeah.
- [08:52]
A
So how are the public school kids in Dallas doing?
- [08:55]
B
Oh, probably bad like the rest of the country. Right.
- [08:57]
A
What, what are the, what's the truth? I mean, do you know anything about the, the how public school students versus homeschool students are faring currently?
- [09:04]
B
Oh, for sure. Homeschool students test way better than public school students. Colleges want them way more and it just like they're. Because they're able to get more one on one attention and not only that is they actually like learning. By the time like public school kids get to college, they don't want to learn. It's just they're not as inspired, they're not as motivated to really like excel in their field. They're just like, eh, they're all just, I don't know, it takes the, the spirit out of learning.
- [09:32]
A
The ability to hyperfocus on something they're interested in. Usually that's where you start to see like that's where they figure out their future career one day and stuff because they're able to dedicate this solo amount of time to something that they really love and enjoy. I, I will say this. Well, I've said it before, is that a lot of the people that are on my team behind the scenes of my podcast are homeschool kids. And that's, they were able to use their teenage years and stuff learning how to do videography, learning photography, how to edit. This was something they were interested in. They were able to sharpen those skills and then, you know, graduate sooner, focus on that and then get a career, you know, start their career sooner doing this type of work. Which I think is really interesting.
- [10:15]
B
Me too. I believe it. I, I think that kids really need that chance to do that from a young age. And I, I think it would, it would honestly change the world. If you think about it, if everyone really got to follow their passions, like how much better would everything be? You know what I mean? Just on a grand scale.
- [10:29]
A
Absolutely. And you, you said that you knew that you wanted to homeschool. What was your preconception of homeschool kids?
- [10:35]
B
I didn't know much about them, but I just, I think I just followed the, you know, oh, they're weird or whatever. It's just like what everyone says. But I didn't really know any homeschool kids. I was in public school, my parents were in the army and they worked really long hours. So I was just kind of in public school and or after, after school care. And that was another thing that kind of really motivated Me to want to homeschool is just having time with my kids. I feel like even as an adult, like, I don't know my parents as much as I could. And it's. People think that's mom shaming, but just like it's just the hours you spend with your kids. If you're, if you're not spending as many hours with your kids as someone who is, you're just not going to have as deep of a relationship. It's just a fact.
- [11:13]
A
Do you get accused of mom shaming on your account?
- [11:15]
B
Oh, of course.
- [11:16]
A
Why?
- [11:17]
B
No one wants to see someone do something different than what they're doing. It just doesn't feel safe. Right. It's like, even if you're not saying you're doing this wrong, just talking about what you're doing in a positive light feels like a threat to people.
- [11:29]
A
Are we a threat to people? The way that we want to raise our kids?
- [11:32]
B
I think it's bettering the world and I think that people should take a second look. If it makes you feel bad, then maybe there's something to that.
- [11:38]
A
What is your homeschool philosophy? How would you describe the way that you teach your kids? Are you unschooling? Are you nature schooling? What. What is it that you do?
- [11:47]
B
We're so flexible and dynamic and I think that's. That is what we're doing, right? We're being flexible. My oldest is almost seven and we're constantly kind of taking his temperature on. Okay, are you bored? Do you feel fulfilled right now and just like asking what he wants to learn and if he's doing okay? And you can also tell, right? It, it impacts their mood, Right. If they're not feeling fulfilled, you can tell like something, something's off. Right. So right now we have mostly outside play. If you want to go through like kind of our daily schedule.
- [12:16]
A
Yes, please. From the moment your kids wake up, tell me every single granular detail.
- [12:20]
B
Sure. We wake up and we do a home cooked breakfast. All meals are home cooked, like good healthy food. I think that's like the foundation of everything.
- [12:26]
A
So what, what's a typical breakfast?
- [12:28]
B
Eggs with bell peppers and sometimes like some meat or like bacon or steak or something. But nothing microwaved. We don't have a microwave. Like none of that. It's like real food foundation. Um, they eat fruit all day just non stop. Like that's our biggest bill, I think, is fruit. Um, but they eat a really, really good breakfast and then they're outside. That's it. Like that's how we start the day, big meal, go outside.
- [12:50]
A
Do you ever find yourself having to kick them out of the house, like beg them, like you're going outside, like where they want to stay in or to the most part. For the most part. Do your kids like just run for the door?
- [12:59]
B
They know the schedule, but we have times where just I think like any family sometimes, like, no, I want to sit in here. But then they'll quickly realize there's nothing to do in there and there's way more to see outside.
- [13:07]
A
Do you have a tv?
- [13:08]
B
We do.
- [13:09]
A
Okay. And so how much screen time on like any given week do your kids get, you think?
- [13:15]
B
It, it depends. We go through seasons. Like if it's winter, a little bit more. Right. We'll have, we'll do like a family movie or something. But they're not watching like TV shows. The shorter the show, the more impact it has on their attention span. Right. If, if they can sit for a longer movie, it's just like, it's better for the brain. And I don't know how to describe that on a scientific level. I'm sure you'll have someone on here that can talk to that. But just like we see it. If you watch like some shorts, their brain's gonna, they're gonna like start going crazy a little bit. So we just kind of watch how things affect their body. And we found that like longer form, like a movie, even if they don't watch the whole thing, just something that's slower paced, that they can sit through that and it doesn't really hurt them as much.
- [13:53]
A
Okay. So you eat the home cooked meal. They go outside for, for play and then. And then what?
- [13:58]
B
And they play for like two or three hours. And then we'll have like one class a day. We use something called outschool. It's like these little zoom classes. Hudson's learning how to use procreate, like that's his interest right now. And it changes. It used to be chess, like so he would have like a 30 minute class with the chess tutor, but now he has a procreate tutor because he's really into animation. So just like something that's. That I can't necessarily teach that. We outsource that for like a 30 minute class. And then Tom does like a little pre K circle time just for fun. And then we're back outside for most of the rest of the day and we have like lunch outside time. And when they're outside, sometimes it's just free play. And then a lot of times we have projects. So we Just kind of do things as a family. Right now across the street from set at the Boy Scout camp, there's someone else who owns the other side. But they're taking down a lot of, like, the cabins and old buildings. Nick is helping the boys take that apart because they're going to build a tree house with the old, old wood.
- [14:51]
A
So here's what naysayers would say to this lifestyle. They would say, how does learning how to take down a tree house help your kid fair in the real world? What would you say?
- [15:02]
B
There's so much math in building, so go talk to an architect and tell them that they're not using things in the real world. Building is, is the real world. Look around, like, everything is built, right? So when they're learning how to build and they're doing things hands on, that's like, the best way to learn math. I, like, failed math. I did not get it, like, all the way through. And I think that wasn't because I didn't understand math. I just didn't understand the way they were trying to teach it. I remember being in high school, my teacher ended up letting me cheat because she just, like, threw her hands up in the air. Because I would ask why, like, they would be giving me this equation and I would be staring at it, and she'd say, okay, you see, this is why it's the answer. I'm like, but why?
- [15:37]
A
But why?
- [15:37]
B
I just didn't get it. Like, why the numbers in a, in a row didn't mean anything to me. But maybe if we could actually, like, build something, you could see the angles and like, yeah, geometry wasn't just like, something on a flat piece of paper.
- [15:48]
A
So what you're saying, what you're saying is every kid learns differently. Homeschool gives parents the freedom and the ability to spend the time and take a second to figure out what that different learning style is going to be for each kid and then teach accordingly. Do you feel like that's true with your own kids?
- [16:05]
B
Absolutely. Yep. They're learning all the basics, but it just looks different. Math through building, writing through writing. Books like Hudson will. Will go through something and he'll be like, I want to write a story about what happened today. And he'll write a story. But it's not me being like, okay, let's do a spelling bee. Write this word like that. I've tried doing that. It doesn't work. They get so annoyed, so bored. It's almost like if they know they're, like, being forced to learn, they kind of Shut it off. They're like, no, this is not what I want to do. Has to be their idea.
- [16:37]
A
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- [19:45]
B
Listen to them. I think that children have a, should have a say in their own education. That is so, so important to me. Mostly because I felt like I didn't have a say. But again, I feel like God has he. He created us for a reason. Each of us has talents, has skills that are built in and we can uncover those if we ask questions, if we give children the freedom to. And I think that children naturally learn. They want to learn, they want to get better, they want to explore the world around them. So we want to give them space to do that and then let them kind of choose how they're learning.
- [20:17]
A
You have a six acre property. Do you have to have eyes on your kids the entire time they're outside?
- [20:23]
B
No, no. We live so rural that it's like so safe and it's like complete opposite of how it used to be in the city. Like you were like, like really on edge. But no, it's so safe there.
- [20:32]
A
So even if your kids are not within eye shot in your own yard, you don't mind they're in these dangerous woods and taking down tree houses and stuff. You just trust your kids. You're not scared about them getting hurt with when you can't see.
- [20:43]
B
So there's two things to that we know the woods. So like we've, we've been there for, for long enough that we know we're not going to let them go down to the creek by themselves. There's like some things, you know, especially like the two year old, he stays in eyesight, but like our almost 7 year old Hudson, he can, he can run around, he can explore and know we're not afraid for anything because he knows what to do. Like he is capable, he knows how to climb trees and if, if there's anything he, he knows how to handle himself because he's had that practice.
- [21:09]
A
Is fear preventing parents from being good parents?
- [21:13]
B
Definitely. And I don't, I think that's kind of by design. I think this goes back to how we were schooled. I think that when you are trained from a young age to listen to the authority figures and anything outside of what you're supposed to be doing is, is, is not good, like that kind of teaches you to be afraid of branching out. So many people are afraid of, of quitting their jobs and trying something new. People are afraid of downsizing their home. All these things that you might have to do to be able to homeschool. People are afraid to do that. People are afraid to change their lives, do anything other than what they thought they were supposed to do this whole time, if that makes sense. We get comments a lot about our kids being barefoot, like, oh, they're gonna get tetanus. Oh, they're gonna get infected. What about ticks? And just like things, it's like, well, ticks are going to get you whether you're barefoot or not.
- [21:59]
A
So, you know, the tick thing is, is actually now that you, you bring that up and you're living in the woods, I actually get that question. Also. It's very funny. I always get parenting questions and I'm not a parent. And when, when I say something that people don't like, then all of a sudden it's wielded against me of like, well, you're not a parent. You can't say your opinion on this. But then I'm also the person that they're always asking, what do you know about this baby food brand? Or what do you know about, you know, tetanus shots or, or being barefoot or ticks. So one, one thing that I think prevents a lot of parents from letting their kids just play outside in their yard is this fear of ticks. So how do you guys handle that? It's just if they get one, they get one.
- [22:36]
B
You know, when it's happening, it's like people think that there are these invisible bugs that will appear on your body and you won't know they're there for a week. It's just like you feel it crawling on you just like you would an ant. Flick it off. It's really not that big of a deal. You'll feel it happening and then you can just like take it off and flush it down the toilet. Done.
- [22:53]
A
What do you think would change if more parents let their kids play outside for multiple hours a day?
- [22:59]
B
All weather kids would be smarter. First of all, we would just. Education would be so much better. Kids are supposed to move around. That's how blood and oxygen gets to their brain. If they're not moving around, they're, they're not going to learn. And like the time you're spending in your home, school or in public school is just going to be like hitting a wall. Like, it's just not going to work like it should.
- [23:18]
A
Why is the food that you make for your family so important for your homeschool philosophy?
- [23:22]
B
You've been talking about nutrition and food on with so many guests and I'm so glad. I loved the Just Ingredients episode. Oh my gosh. But just like, it's, it's not just for us that we have to remember that as parents that we have to really take it seriously for our kids because they're more fragile, you know, they're younger. And then also, like, you get to start their foundation of health. Like we, we've grown up on Frosted Flakes and stuff that were terrible for us. Can you imagine? Like, and I don't think that it's too late for us. I think everyone should, you know, do really well with their health right now. But imagine if we had grown up on these grass fed raw milk diets, like how we would be superhumans, you know what I mean? Super versions of ourselves. And who doesn't want to be the best version of themselves? People taking their life for granted, taking their life for just like, yeah, it's okay. People that, you know, talk about moderation and prioritize moderation over just like trying your best to like, just really take your health seriously. I don't agree with that. I think we should take it very seriously, especially for our kids, because not only are you feeding them now and this is going to be their foundation for health for the rest of their life, but you're also like, you're teaching them what kind of habits to choose for themselves. I have something to say about 8020. So when someone says they are, you know, 8020 balance. I feel like if you think you're 80 20, you're probably a 6040 at best. You're not actually going as hard as you should.
- [24:44]
A
And that's generous.
- [24:44]
B
I think I see all these posts about moderation and oh, if, if my kids at a birthday party and, and there's cake there with Red 40, I'm just gonna let them have it. It's a special occasion. No.
- [24:57]
A
You're saying no?
- [24:58]
B
Absolutely not.
- [24:59]
A
Why?
- [24:59]
B
More than just the impact of the food itself, but what are we teaching our kids if at the first time of like, first sign of peer pressure, the first sign of resistance, we say, oh, it's okay, you're throwing your values out the window. And like that is teaching them that the second anything is like a little bit hard or there's, there's other people doing something that you should just do what everyone else is doing.
- [25:20]
A
Yeah. Abandon your, your core values, your core principles, your beliefs in order to fit in, when really we should be doing the complete opposite.
- [25:30]
B
Standing your ground, knowing your body, knowing that you shouldn't have it. It's not even about the cupcake. It's about your values and it's about teaching them to be a strong human being.
- [25:42]
A
My flight home from the inauguration this month kind of got delayed pretty seriously. I was stuck at the airport. And you know that moment where you're starting to calculate if you can survive the weight without eating something that you're instantly gonna regret? Yeah, that's me. So I'm pacing around, I'm checking every snack kiosk like it's dang survival challenge. And then I remembered I had my Paleo Valley beef sticks in my bag. Problem solved. Paleo Valley beef sticks are like a mini vacation for your taste buds. 100 grass fed grass, finished beef, no grains, no antibiotics, just happy cows roaming around eating grass, probably doing cow yoga, living their best, while everyone else is gnawing on some junk made with chemicals you can't even pronounce. I'm eating real food. Paleo Valley, 100% grass fed and finished beef steaks. Don't mess around. No herbicides, no pesticides, just good, clean, fermented grass fed beef. I mean, do you want to eat something that's been marinating in pesticides or something that's got gut friendly probiotics in it? Yeah, I'm going to take the probiotics. Thanks. Most of these other snack sticks that you see at the store, they're like, hey, let's toss in some GMO corn Put a little hydrogenated oil, call it a snack. Paleo Valley's over. Over here. Like, nah, we're gonna ferment it the old school way so you can feel good about it. Paleo Valley beef sticks are so good. They were even voted one of the top snacks of the year by Paleo magazine. You know, the magazine for people who think gluten is the devil and kale is a blessing. So if you want to stop eating like a garbage person at the airport or anywhere, head to paleov.com Alex and use code Alex for 15 off your order. That's paleo valley.com Alex for 15% off with code Alex. Stop eating like you're just surviving and eat like you're thriving. All right, let me take you back to when I was 15. You know, the vibe, okay? I was lighting incense. I was cranking Jefferson Airplane White Rabbit on my stereo because we still had those. And staring at a mushroom poster on my wall thinking, man, I would totally belong in the 60s. I had this whole, like, I'm a psychedelic guru Persona. I was obsessed with shopping at like, these vintage stores in Louisville where I grew up, you know, in real. Was just trying to figure out how to keep my acne under control. Well, fast forward 15 years. I'm still obsessed with mushrooms. But these days, it's the medicinal kind, not the kind that you take on a spiritual journey. And I never did that, by the way. I just thought it was cool. You know how it goes. And let me tell you, I found a new obsession. It's Mush Morco organic mushroom gummies. These little guys are nature's original superfood. Packed with adaptogens and immunomodulators. Basically, they help your body chill out when life's throwing curveballs. Move over big pharma Mush. More CO gummies are the real deal. Only nine ingredients. No fake colors, no sulfates, no parabens, and definitely no weird synthetic stuff. Just pure organic mushroom fruiting bodies. Because that's where all the good stuff is. And they're potent. Most companies have like 500 milligrams per gummy. These Mushmore co organic mushroom gummies pack a solid 1000mg and add in 250iu of vitamin D per serving. So you are not wasting your money here, folks. Plus, they're grain free, Paleo friendly. And this is my favorite. They're 100% plastic free. Yeah. This company is not just saving your health, they're saving the planet too. So if you're ready to Level up your health and support a company that actually cares. Head to eat mushies.com and use code Alex for 20% off. That's eat mushies.com with code Alex for 20% off. What would the liberal Taylor think of this conservative crunchy Taylor today? Life, let's say Taylor five years ago, what would you think of yourself today?
- [29:22]
B
I don't even think I would think about it because I think I was so asleep that I would just repeat what I was being told. You know, I would be like, oh, you're conservative. You're probably racist. Just like the. The same old boring talking points that aren't really from a place of, like, critical thought.
- [29:38]
A
How plugged into politics and religion and stuff like that were you and your husband?
- [29:42]
B
So we met in college, and we were studying philosophy at a very liberal college in a very liberal town. And we kind of just for our own individual reasons, we didn't have any, like, solid footing from our families. So we were kind of really fluid and just like, kind of soaking in what people around us were teaching us. And it's very easy to do that at college. So I'm so glad that Charlie Kirk is doing what he's doing, because college is a place where even the, like, families that try their best to teach their children, like, good family conservative values when they go to college, it. It tears it apart. And me and Nick have been trying to figure out what is it exactly, because there's. It's not like no one's making you sign in blood like you are now a liberal. But there's just. It just, like, is so subtle, the, the culture that happens on these campuses. But we were very liberal, I think. Like, we were pro drag queen story hour. We didn't go to one because we didn't have, like, kids. But we were like, yeah, this is good. We need to be kind to people and all their differences, and we need to use people's pronouns correctly. All the things that are just wrong. Now we see that it's wrong, why it's wrong. But we were so tied into pretty much every liberal thought you can imagine, we were subscribed to it.
- [30:50]
A
And how would you have described your. Your faith at that point?
- [30:54]
B
I didn't have any, and I did not have one. And I think that's exactly why as soon as I found out that God was real, it just, like, it was an overnight rearrangement of like, oh, it just changes the way you see the world.
- [31:05]
A
How did you find out God was real?
- [31:07]
B
And I haven't Shared this on any of my social media because it, I would sound crazy, but it was just, it was an overnight thing that like, like, it is so hard to believe this if you didn't know me before. But like, I had no beliefs about the world. I had no real vision, and I was just loosey goosey. I didn't really believe in anything. And I, I was a parent. So, like, as a young parent, I think I already had Hudson. We weren't. We were still planning on homeschooling, but it was not like, anchored into any truth or God. But it was just one night in bed. I felt there was like a bright light around me and like this warm feeling. And God just spoke into me all this truth. And then I remember it was kind of like a sense of humor thing. Like he was. I feel like the only reason he came to me is because I was so stupid. Like I was never gonna like, figure it out on my own. So he just kind of came to me and was like that I am real. This is, this, this is what your mission is. You focus on being a mom and loving your kids.
- [32:00]
A
What is your mission?
- [32:01]
B
That's it. Being a mom and loving my kids. But also I think past that, talking about what, what we should be doing with our families and how other families should be honoring their children because God made them a certain way and we need to be listening to them more.
- [32:15]
A
To say that there is a right way or wrong way to raise kids. Some people would say that's judging moms or mom shaming. What do you say to that?
- [32:23]
B
It is. And that's not a bad thing. Not necessarily. I think that we do need to be holding each other accountable when there is a right and wrong way. And people who think there's not a right and wrong way, they're not acknowledging that there is a truth. Right? And that's, that's what I'm kind of getting at is once I realized God was real, there is one truth, right? There's one pinnacle of truth. Truth. And with that knowing that you can rearrange like the world to fit that. If there is a truth, then there are lots of other truths that kind of point to that.
- [32:49]
A
When you send your kids outside for so many hours, what the heck are they doing out there?
- [32:54]
B
They're, they're gardening, they're playing, they're running, jumping, climbing. They're just like enjoying each other. That's socialization, right? They have each other. They're playing, they're solving problems, they're doing make believe. They're making four sports. They're writing little signs that say, no, mom's allowed. And just. They're just being creative.
- [33:11]
A
Do they ever come to you and say, mom, I'm bored?
- [33:13]
B
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [33:14]
A
And then what do you normally.
- [33:16]
B
Okay, it starts up. There's seasons of it, right? And. But they start to realize that, okay, my boredom is not my mom's problem, and she's not always going to solve it. Sometimes I give them ideas, right? And it's like, sometimes it's hard to not help our kids in some ways. So I'll give them, like, oh, you could do this. And. And I'll only go like, like, maybe like two or three things. I'll give them three ideas, and if they don't take them, sorry.
- [33:36]
A
Figure it out.
- [33:37]
B
Yeah.
- [33:37]
A
Do you think a lot of parents are afraid to have bored kids?
- [33:41]
B
Yes, definitely. It's. It's kind of like a helicopter mom thing. And it's also just like, you. You naturally want to help your kids. And sometimes we see boredom as, like, a problem, but it's not a problem if you see it as, like, an opportunity, then you realize, oh, my kids don't need my help. This is actually a really good opportunity for them to figure something out on their own.
- [33:58]
A
Do you ever let weather get in the way of your kids playing outside?
- [34:01]
B
It does to an extent. And I. And I want to say that now we're out in all sorts of weather, but in the winter time when there's, like, a lot of snow on the ground, you can only be outside for a certain period of time. But we will go outside. Like, there's not a day where we're just gonna not go outside.
- [34:12]
A
But what about rain?
- [34:13]
B
Oh, we play out in the rain, too. That's great. If it rains. I feel like we've had a drought all summer, so if it rains, we're really excited. But, yeah, we'll run out and play.
- [34:20]
A
What is the biggest misconception you hear about homeschool moms?
- [34:24]
B
I think the biggest misconception probably across the board of people who don't understand homeschooling, is that it's just like a dark room when a child is sitting at a desk because, like, the parents bought a desk somehow, and that they're just, like, doing what they do in school. And it doesn't have to be like that at all. And it really shouldn't. Like, if you are homeschooling, you should take that freedom and run with it and really customize it for your kids.
- [34:45]
A
Are you worried that your kids are not going to learn as much if they're not in a regular school setting with a teacher.
- [34:51]
B
I love that question. Yeah, they're not going to learn as much, and that's a good thing, I think that. Define learning. So the school system has you memorizing so much stuff, and it's like filling your brain with things that really aren't that important. So, yeah, they're gonna learn less, but the things that they are gonna learn, they're gonna actually matter. They're gonna actually, like, find uses for it, and those things are going to kind of jump them into whatever career path they choose.
- [35:16]
A
I think a lot of homeschool moms would be afraid to say that, but you explaining it makes a lot of sense. I went on the Skinny Confidential, and Lauren was asking me, you know, tell me exactly how you would homeschool your kids. Like, tell me exactly what it would look like. And I really struggled with that question. Afterwards, I told someone on my team, I said, gosh, I bombed that part of the interview. I was like, Because I do have ideas. But the truth is, is that I can't answer that question. It's just. It's a hard question because every child is different. And I don't know. I can have ideas of, like, I want to do this homeschool method. I want to use this. I want to do this. But until I have that child and know their personality, it could look drastically different. Me wanting to homeschool is not going to change. But the way that I choose to homeschool might be different than what I think now. Without kids, you know what that's going to look like. Do you feel like you had. You've had to pivot the style in which you teach some of your kids?
- [36:06]
B
Yes. And. And I. I still am every day. So it's most. It's a relationship. It's not like, okay, this is what I decided whenever you were three years old, how we were going to homeschool, and this is how we're going to do it, because I said, so. It is. It's a relationship. And just like you're saying, you. You can't really picture what you're going to do yet because you haven't met your child yet. And when you do, you're going to meet them. Them at three, you're going to meet them at four, at five, at six. Like, the child ages right, and they change and they have different interests, and you start. You start to see their personality blossom, and you learn more about them as you go. And so it's constantly changing.
- [36:37]
A
Is there anything when it comes to homeschooling that you and your husband disagree on?
- [36:41]
B
Nick thinks that if they're like high school age and they asked to go to school, that will let them. And I think no.
- [36:48]
A
And you say no? Yeah. What happens if your kids grow up and say, I hate this. I want to go to normal school. I want prom. I want a date. I want fast cars and freedom. I want Taco Bell.
- [36:56]
B
Well, sorry, I don't think so. I think that means we're doing something wrong. And so we would. And I don't think it would get to that point. Like, I just really don't think it'll get to that point. And just as I was saying, like, we're constantly having this communication and we're learning, like, what they need. I don't think what they need is going to go backwards. Like, by the time that they are 16, they're gonna be so far beyond their peers because they're going to be, like, apprenticing. They're gonna, like, already know what they want to do for a job, and they'll be actually probably working in that field already and, like, really focusing in on their skills. If they want to go to high school and, like, go play at prom and like, sit in a desk and. And listen to, like, Civil War date facts. Like, I feel like that we've done something wrong.
- [37:35]
A
You live in Six Acre woods in the middle of nowhere, and you're homeschooling. Where are your kids? Getting socialization with each other.
- [37:44]
B
And people always, like, count that out. Like, where are they socializing? It's like, okay, if they're. If they went to school, they would be sitting in a desk with kids all around them of the same age, and they would be told. Told not to talk because you're not here to socialize. They're getting more socialization. You know what?
- [37:59]
A
Nobody ever brings that up. You know how many times I was kicked out of class for talking? Yeah, you're right. You're not supposed to be socializing. Except for a very small period of time. This is your designated social talk. You know, during lunch or recess, if you even get recess.
- [38:13]
B
Yeah.
- [38:13]
A
And I don't even know that every kid or every school is really doing much recess anymore either.
- [38:18]
B
I don't know. Probably not at home. We're socializing way more than they would at school. They have their siblings, they have us. Right. And people think that, oh, socializing with your parents, that's a real thing. And that's really important. It's kind of how we were designed to have kids. We're just, we're designed to be with them all the time and we're designed to parent them. We're constantly able to answer their questions. If they're just like off at school listening to what people are telling them, listening to facts and like writing stuff down, they're really kind of alone in their head. But if they're learning with us and they're like, we talk all day. It's like almost like a constant dialogue. They have a thought, hey, hey, mom, what's the hottest place on earth right now? Like, if they have any kind of. By the way, it's Arizona.
- [38:56]
A
Yeah, it is. Especially today.
- [38:58]
B
Yeah. If they have like a thought about the world or, or themselves or their bodies or God or just like any of these things that they're thinking about because they have actually have time to think because we're not bombarding them with facts. They have time to think about real things and then they ask us these questions and we just like talk all the time. So they're like, they're getting a lot of socialization.
- [39:14]
A
Are you involved in any co ops or anything with any other families? Like, I mean, are they ever seeing other kids?
- [39:19]
B
Yes, definitely. We have like once a week on Fridays, there's like a wild and free thing. We go meet either like a hike or there's like a craft. And so like they alternate between that.
- [39:29]
A
Do you feel like as a homeschool parent you have a lot of opportunities for activities for your kids, or do you feel like your kids have like two options and there's just not much to do outside of your own property?
- [39:42]
B
Living in a rural area actually limits our options. So a lot of people, that's what we get like some flack online of like. Well, not everyone has, you know, nature properties to homeschool on. I'm like, actually right there in your city, you have a lot of really cool things. You have a museum, you have a library, you have like all these really cool things that you can go visit. Where we are, we have, we have sports, right? We do Thomas in soccer. Hudson does baseball. So we do like city sports. There is a library. But if we need to go to a museum or like a state park, we, we'll drive a couple hours to do that.
- [40:10]
A
You and your husband both stay home, you're both doing social media work. Is homeschooling more doable for you than parents where both work or a single parent who is the ideal family that can homeschool? Is it Only certain types of people that can pull the off.
- [40:24]
B
We are so not privileged. Not privileged, but like, lucky. I, I love it that we're both home because I think it's so special to have the influence of both, you know, both the father and the mother. 24, 7. I'm, I'm really excited for my kids to grow up this way because I didn't have anything like this, you know, So I love that situation. But no, that's not. That does not have to be the only situation. Stay at home moms can do it by themselves. Stay at home dads can do that by themselves. And I get a lot of messages from people whose parents like, they both work, but maybe one works outside the home, but they still make homeschooling work.
- [40:55]
A
There's also, I've learned this from, like, people like Heidi St. John, who I've had on the show, is that there are absolutely two parent households that are working outside the home and single parents. And that's the thing about homeschooling is that you're creating your own schedule. So do you feel like there are some days where you do zero type of formal schooling and it's just play or you guys doing a little school every day? She was saying how, like, some people, if they're both working or it's a single parent, maybe your school is, is on the weekends and then, you know, the week is, is something else, but you find the time to do it. And also she talked about how there really only needs to be like two hours if of formal school a day. You know, if that's a workbook or, or doing something like that. So if you do it, if you're a working parent and you come home and then you're doing school after dinner for like an hour and a half or two, she's like, that's it. That's really all you need. This idea that we need like six, seven hours of formal sitting in a desk, desk at school is the only way you're learning is just not true. She said throughout the course of a day, even those long school days, they are only learning about an hour and a half, two hours worth of information. Would, would that be accurate to say so accurate.
- [42:02]
B
And the age that our kids are, they're like maybe 30 minutes a day. But that's so accurate what you said. And there's a lot of schools. So people that are listening that maybe, like, don't think they can homeschool or don't want to for whatever reason, there are schools that are actually like, Taking that model and running with it. There's one out of Austin. There's like Acton Academy is one they have. They're popping up chains all over America. Apogee is one. But in these schools, what they're doing is, yeah, two hours tops of like academics, like focused, like core stuff, which is like just math and reading. And then the rest of the day they're working on their own personal projects.
- [42:34]
A
Your homeschooled 7 year old, what does he know how to do that a public school seven year old probably doesn't?
- [42:40]
B
Start a fire and put out a fire. He can build things. He knows how to carve. Carve with a carving knife. He can use an ax. He can build things on his own. He can use a bow and arrow. He is learning how to. We're learning how to hunt just this fall. So a little bit of that. He can start a garden on his own. He knows how to harvest things. He knows how to identify a lot of plants. He can fish, he can go to the creek, catch crawfish, come up to the house, cook them, eat them all by himself.
- [43:09]
A
He knows how to cook them too.
- [43:10]
B
Yeah.
- [43:11]
A
No way.
- [43:12]
B
Yeah.
- [43:12]
A
That's incredible. Are you letting your kids use knives in the kitchen? You're not scared about that?
- [43:17]
B
Of course I am. But you have to let them anyway. So, like, the more you let your kids do risky things, the less risky it is because they know how to do it. So, like, that's really. I used to be like the most anxious mom and just like at base level of anxiety. But I realized the more you let them do the things that scare you, like, the safer they are because sometimes they're just going to do it anyway. But if you, like, don't let them do anything, then you're always like, on edge. Like, oh, no, what if they climb? Climb that? If they climb it, then they know how to climb it and they're not going to fall next time. So you have to let them do those things.
- [43:44]
A
What's your plan on teaching your kids how to read?
- [43:47]
B
Hudson knows how to read. So it's just reading is a big part of our home. We. We have never had to be like phonics. Like, this is the sound of this letter. We have never had to do that. We just like, read to them all the time. This is actually like Nick's favorite part of homeschooling. So he loves it. So he reads to them like 20 books a day. With Hudson, he'll read like chapter books and he'll have Hudson like, okay, read the the first part. But a lot of times they're looking over our shoulders. And the more you read to your kids, they just kind of pick it up naturally. There doesn't have to be like, so specific. All the phonics education and how long it takes to teach it in school. It doesn't have to actually be like that.
- [44:20]
A
What would you say to encourage the mom who is apprehensive about letting her kids go outside because she just doesn't know what to do with them? She doesn't. When she sends them outside, they're like, well, what am I supposed to do out here?
- [44:31]
B
It depends. So if you want to just start being outside, like, go for a hike. Because there's kind of a mission. And that's how we started. And that's what we love too. Sometimes it is like, okay, what. What are we going to do outside? But a hike is good. So you go to a trail head and you look at the map together and say, this is the plan. And a lot of times kids will complain about, you know, oh, where are we going? But if it's a loop, they're kind of. They have a mission. They know, like, okay, we're going to finish this at some point right out. And backs are a little bit harder. So find like a loop hike and then have like a kind of secondary mission. Like, how many different flowers can you find on this trail? How many different rocks can you find on this trail? And let them, like, explore things along the way. So there's like a. A macro mission and then like a little micro mission.
- [45:08]
A
I like that. I like creating a mission gives them something to do, a purpose for being out there instead of. I think that's where parents struggle is just. So I'm just supposed to open the door and just say, go outside. To kids that have really not experienced a lot of outside time. They're always on screens that is probably intimidating. And they are like, well, what am I supposed to do out here? So it's those baby steps and. And doing that. What would you say to the parent who's on edge of, okay, my kids are currently in public school. I just don't know if I can. I don't know that I know how to teach my own kids. I don't know that I could make homeschooling fun. What would you say?
- [45:40]
B
Tough love here? Because I guess I get that a lot. And I don't know how to answer those questions without. It's. Because it's a bigger conversation. But if you think you can't do Something. You're right. You know what I mean? Like, you have to just say, I can do this, and, and then you can. Either way, you're right. So if you are adding these limiting beliefs to, to yourself, then, then you're not. Then you're not going to do it. You're not going to go for it. But you have to realize that, like, you are in control of your own life, no one else. And if this is something you really believe in, then, then you'll make it happen and you can do it.
- [46:10]
A
If you could offer one remedy to heal a sick culture, physically, mentally, or spiritually, what would it be?
- [46:16]
B
Take your kids seriously. Feed them good food. Feed them like they're athletes. Let them grow up healthy. Give them a great foundation for life. Listen to them, Give them their own voice. Let them think critically in front of you. And sometimes that's going to feel uncomfortable because we were all raised to, to tell our kids to back. But you, you want to let in respectfully. There's ways to do it respectfully. But you want your kids to push up against you. You want them to have their own thoughts and argue. Because the culture we're seeing today, the backlash and like the aftermath of 2020, was because people could not think critically, because people could not argue with authority. People could not think for themselves like, oh, this is, this is not right. And a lot of us did, but too many didn't. Too many just went with what they were told. Too many just rely on experts that are bought. You have to raise kids if you want to seal, heal a sick culture. We have to think of, of the culture in this next generation. It is our job as moms to raise kids who are not going to fall for that again.
- [47:18]
A
What are your favorite resources for learning about homeschooling?
- [47:22]
B
Wild and free is great. And that's like, that was kind of what got us started. I love the wild and free free. Heidi St. John is great. I love watching her and following her on social media.
- [47:31]
A
If people follow you on, on social media, what would they find?
- [47:34]
B
We're kind of branching out, but mostly we share reels on just, you know, keeping your kids barefoot. Just like inspirational stuff about stuff we're doing our life and our progress. As we renovate the Boy Scout camp, we recently started a podcast that's focusing on philosophy. We are eventually going to come out with a curriculum for teaching philosophy to kids. Because I think that is like a bit big gap in a lot of curriculums for parents that uses. Use curriculum like people want to know, like how do we teach our kids to think critically? So we're coming out with something like that soon, but just. Yeah. How to raise free range kids.
- [48:09]
A
What has been the number one transformation that you've noticed in your family since homeschooling?
- [48:14]
B
Our health and our connection to the world and each other and just nature and our excitement to just be a live.
- [48:21]
A
What is your Instagram handle?
- [48:22]
B
Oh, you can find me on Instagram at Leaf and Learn. Leaf and Learn and then podcast of the same name.
- [48:27]
A
Okay, perfect. You have a podcast?
- [48:29]
B
Yeah, we just started it.
- [48:30]
A
What days a week do you put out?
- [48:32]
B
Mondays.
- [48:33]
A
Okay. Every Monday, Leaf and Learn podcast.
- [48:35]
B
Awesome.
- [48:35]
A
Thank you, Taylor, for coming on Culture of B. Yeah, thank you. I love what Taylor had to say about letting her kids use knives in the kitchen and playing outside unsupervised to build confidence and independence. She is very brave. Her account is beautiful. I highly recommend following it. Next episode is with one of your favorite podcasters discussing toxic empathy. Ooh, you already know who it is. New episodes every Monday and Thursday at 6pm Pacific, 9pm Eastern. Anywhere you get your podcasts or the real Alex Clark. YouTube. I'm Alex Clark and this is Culture Apothecary.