Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark

Episode: Remembering Charlie Kirk with Michael Knowles and Ben Shapiro
Date: September 22, 2025
Host: Alex Clark
Guests: Michael Knowles, Ben Shapiro
Podcast by: Turning Point USA

Episode Overview

In this emotionally charged special episode, Alex Clark welcomes Michael Knowles and Ben Shapiro to honor the life and legacy of Charlie Kirk after his assassination. The conversation explores their first memories of Charlie, the profound impact of his loss on both their personal lives and the broader conservative movement, and what can be done to heal a polarized and hurting culture. Both guests reflect candidly on their grief, Charlie's character, the climate that led to his death, and offer their remedies for a society in crisis.

Key Discussion Points

1. First Impressions & Early Encounters with Charlie Kirk

• Michael Knowles’ First Meeting (01:37):
  Michael recalls meeting an ambitious 18-year-old Charlie at a David Horowitz Freedom Center event.

  “As Charlie walked away, I turned to Jeremy [Boring] and I said, that kid's going to be the head of the RNC. Like you knew it the first time you met Charlie... Charlie is one of the rare people who got better at legitimately everything.”
  [03:11]

• Charlie's Relentless Grit:
  Knowles praises Charlie’s energy and drive, noting he “willed himself to become incredibly good” at public speaking, debating, and leadership.

  “He was 31 years old, and he had done all of this. When a normal 31-year-old dies... you don't see the outpouring of grief from literally tens of millions of people across the globe.”
  [04:05]

• Alex Clark’s Green Room Memory (23:02):
  Alex shares her first in-person experience with Charlie, emphasizing his infectious energy and sincere character, even in exhausting circumstances.

2. Rumors, Competition, and Working Relationships

• Addressing Rumors of Tension (04:59):
  Ben prompts a discussion on alleged competitive tension between Daily Wire and TPUSA.

  “There was Covid... it's not like we ran a campus organization. We run a media outlet. The idea that there was some sort of competition... would have been weird.” — Michael Knowles
  [05:26]

• Behind-the-Scenes Collaboration:
  Both guests stress there was no “beef,” just pragmatic discussions in the world of conservative politics.

3. Security, Threats, and the Tragedy’s Aftermath

• Living Under Threat (06:09):
  Knowles describes family life under constant security, indicating a normalization of risk within their households.

  “My wife, unfortunately, is quite used to this, and so are my kids... they do not know what it's like to live without 24/7 security.”
  [06:11]

• Why Security Wasn’t Higher for Charlie (07:01–07:30):
  Ben laments that more protection wasn’t enforced after Trump’s assassination attempt; Charlie, by choice, refused to be distanced from crowds or wear bulletproof vests.

  “He wanted to be with the crowd. That's... a decision he wanted to make.” — Michael Knowles
  [07:30]

• Shattered Assumptions:

  “There was a baseline assumption in this country, you do not get shot to death for having political debate...That got shattered.” — Michael Knowles
  [08:04]

• The Role of Courage (08:45):
  Knowles calls for others to “pick up Charlie's bloodstained microphone” in continuing his work, while clarifying he is not taking over TPUSA.

  “No one is capable of filling Charlie's shoes... Everybody needs to do their bit.”
  [09:15]

4. Charlie’s Legacy & the Outpouring of Grief

• Worldwide Mourning (10:53):
  Knowles reflects on the remarkable breadth of support—even from political adversaries—demonstrating Charlie’s ability to connect with and influence people far beyond conservative circles.

  “That's a testament to Charlie. It wasn't just the right that rose up in a cry of hurt and pain and anguish and rage. It was a bunch of people who... disagreed with Charlie.”
  [11:46]

• Coalition Building & Open Dialogue (11:02):
  Knowles and Shapiro agree Charlie’s greatest legacy was refusing to silo himself—his focus was on open debate, inviting disagreement, and transformative conversations.

  “If you disagree, go to the front of the line. Right. Disagree. Front of the line.” — Michael Knowles quoting Charlie
  [11:30]

5. Controversies & Rumors

• Rumors Regarding Israel, TPUSA Leadership, and Policy Shifts (12:40, 14:27, 15:16):
  Both guests reject conspiracy theories about Charlie’s relationship to Israel or potential policy shifts.

  “There's not one iota of evidence that's true... People who are spreading these rumors, they're agents of demoralization.” — Michael Knowles
  [12:51]

• Coalition Tensions (14:27):
  Ben acknowledges internal divisions on the right, especially regarding Israel, but insists Charlie's approach was always to open the floor to all perspectives.

6. Grieving and Coping with Loss

• Personal Impact of Charlie’s Death (18:16–21:30):
  Alex and Michael discuss their emotional responses to the news of Charlie’s death, the process of grieving, and the strength shown by Charlie's family in the aftermath.

• Erica Kirk’s Strength (21:32):
  Both note Erica (Charlie’s widow) and her children’s resilience as "superhuman," finding solace in Charlie’s exemplary faith.

7. Charlie Kirk’s Character

• Consistent Integrity (25:13):
  Alex and Ben reflect on how Charlie was “who he said he was”—motivated, ethical, never harsh or gossipy, and a radical straight-shooter even with opponents.

• Charity Toward Enemies (26:35):
  Knowles:

  “He was a complete straight shooter... And you can judge a man by his enemies... he lived that out every day... especially for his enemies.”
  [26:57]

8. Political Climate & Justice System

• Federal Investigation Into TPUSA (26:35):
  Knowles contextualizes the “Arctic Frost” federal investigation, noting the political targeting of conservatives, and credits Charlie's effectiveness with provoking opponents’ ire.

• Charlie’s Role in the Political Landscape (27:14–29:31):
  Both guests agree that the hope for justice and reform after his death owes much to Charlie’s influence:

  “This is not hyperbole... There almost certainly is not a Trump second term without Charlie Kirk.” — Michael Knowles
  [27:57]

9. Was Charlie a Civil Rights Leader or Martyr?

• Definitions & Perspectives (31:06–32:26):
  Alex parses the meaning of “civil rights leader” and “martyr” as applied to Charlie.

  “He was killed because of what he had to say about the nature of man and the relation of the body to the soul and about God, about Christ... he was targeted because ultimately of his faith and religious convictions.”
  [32:17]

10. The Marketplace of Ideas, Order, and Protecting Debate

• On Redoubling Commitment to Free Speech (32:26–37:27):
  Knowles argues for “reassertion of order” to protect rather than recklessly expand the public square:

  “It's not that we want to throw people out... We're talking about particularly egregious examples that undermine the whole public order.”
  [37:29]

• Consequences for Celebrating Violence (33:53):

  “One cannot tolerate the celebration of murder... You're not thereby increasing the exchange of ideas, you're completely shutting it down.” — Alex Clark
  [34:00]

11. Religion, Faith, and What Charlie Stood For

• Potential Catholic Conversion? (38:01):
  Alex diplomatically addresses rumors about Charlie converting to Catholicism—ultimately focusing on Charlie’s sincerity and pursuit of truth.

  “Charlie took religion very, very seriously, and he took truth very seriously... I feel good about Charlie.”
  [38:53]

• Charlie’s Vision and Content Legacy (16:05):
  Knowles encourages ongoing promotion of Charlie’s message and the building of the TPUSA movement.

  “What Charlie stood for in the end was a belief that people need to make America better and make themselves better... People need to go to church.”
  [16:51]

12. Remedies for a Sick Culture

• Michael Knowles’ Remedy (17:46):

  “Go to church. I say this as a Jew. Go to church.”
  [17:46]

• Why Church is Crucial (17:50):

  “This is a Christian country. I want Jews to go to synagogue, but there ain't that many of us. So if you're a Christian or if you grew up in a Christian household... church is good for you. Charlie said it his entire career. It ain't gonna stop now.”
  [17:49]

• Alex Clark’s Remedy (40:05):

  “The first thing you have to do is pray, ideally on your knees. That’s the first thing you have to do personally. And that’s physical, emotional, and spiritual... But we’re political creatures as well. We need the public authority to recognize truths, to recognize goods like the common good, and to pursue them. Good is to be done and evil is to be avoided.”
  [40:05–42:38]

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “Charlie is one of the rare people who got better at legitimately everything.”
  — Michael Knowles, [03:11]

• “Everybody needs to go out and pick up Charlie's bloodstained microphone.”
  — Michael Knowles, [08:49]

• “He was killed because of what he had to say about... God, about Christ. He never let an opportunity go by when he did not preach the gospel to people.”
  — Alex Clark, [32:18]

• “We all have to go out and do those things. No one should even try to replace Charlie Kirk or do what Charlie was doing. It's not possible.”
  — Michael Knowles, [09:15]

• “If you disagree, go to the front of the line. We need to have those conversations.”
  — Michael Knowles, paraphrasing Charlie Kirk, [11:30]

• “Go to church. I say this as a Jew. Go to church.”
  — Michael Knowles, [17:46]

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 01:37 | Michael Knowles recalls first meeting Charlie Kirk | | 04:59 | Addressing rumors of competition/“beef” | | 06:09 | Family security and living with threats | | 07:01 | Why Charlie refused higher security/protection | | 08:39 | Courage after tragedy and carrying on Charlie’s work | | 10:53 | Worldwide outpouring of grief; Charlie’s unique influence| | 12:40 | Addressing rumors on Israel and TPUSA leadership | | 16:05 | How to honor Charlie’s legacy long-term | | 17:46 | Knowles’ cultural remedy: Go to church | | 23:02 | Alex Clark’s first impression of Charlie | | 25:13 | Charlie’s character—never harsh, always sincere | | 26:35 | Political climate & government targeting | | 29:15 | The necessity of justice post-Charlie’s death | | 31:06 | Is Charlie a civil rights leader or martyr? | | 32:26 | Marketplace of ideas, free speech, and the need for order| | 33:53 | Celebrating violence and limits of free speech | | 38:01 | Rumors of Charlie’s religious conversion | | 40:05 | Alex Clark’s cultural remedy: Pray and seek common good |

Tone and Language:

The conversation is heartfelt, frank, occasionally somber but also inspiring—reflecting deep loss, hope, and conviction. The guests openly display their vulnerability and belief in the mission Charlie began.

For listeners seeking a moving tribute to Charlie Kirk, reflections on faith and public discourse, and concrete ideas for restoring cultural health, this episode provides both breadth and depth—with meaningful personal stories, political insight, and philosophical remedies.