← Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark
Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark
Stop Helicoptering! Raise Free-Range Kids & Beat Fear | Author Lenore Skenazy
01:06:22
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- [00:00]
A
You were dubbed America's Worst mom for letting your nine year old son ride the New York City subway alone. Would you still allow him to do that if he was nine years old today?
- [00:11]
B
Yes. If you think that nothing is safe enough, not sleeping over at a friend's house, not going into the deli, you're really living in a horror movie. The only way that you can feel more calm and trusting of the world is to actually let go for a minute and realize it's okay.
- [00:53]
A
Would you let your nine year old ride the New York City subway alone? Most parents would say no way. But Lenore Skenazi said yes and sparked a global conversation. Dubbed America's Worst mom after her bold experiment, Lenor turned the criticism into a movement with her groundbreaking book Free Range Kids and her nonprofit Let Grow, empowering parents to give their kids the independence that they need to thrive. As a journalist, speaker and leading voice on childhood autonomy, she's been featured everywhere from the New York Times to the Daily show, challenging us to rethink how fear shapes motivation. Modern Parenting Today we dive into her journey, her practical advice, and why letting go might just be the key to raising confident, capable kids. Watch this episode on the Culture Apothecary, Spotify or Real Alex Clark on YouTube, which you should subscribe to by the way, because occasionally I'm posting vlogs from my life and travels that give you more of a sneak peek into my day to day beyond just Culture Apothecary. Another place that that happens my Instagram at Real Alex Clark. You can also find the show for additional content at Culture Apothecary. This show is free. All ask is that you pause real quick, take 10 seconds, leave a 5 star review on Apple or Spotify, talk about your favorite episode or the one that you think new listeners should start with. Please welcome the bestselling author of one of my very favorite parenting books, Lenor Sky. To Culture Apothecary is childhood independence at risk for extinction in America?
- [02:23]
B
Extinction maybe. Last gasps yeah, last gasps.
- [02:28]
A
How do you think we got here?
- [02:30]
B
You have to start by looking at the media, which knows that if it bleeds, it leads. We all know that, right? And as the media became more intense in the 80s, we got cable television. Then obviously along came the Internet. And stories that happen once, anywhere, anytime that are horrible get repeated over and over again and it starts to feel as if it's happening all the time. And so part of it is the media, part of it is a litigious society. You start thinking like a lawyer. Is this fair Is this gonna hold up in court? Is this safe enough? Experts are always telling you you're doing it wrong. I hope I'm not an expert. I hope I'm just like a normal person sent down from another era to talk to Alex. And you have a marketplace, which I'm happy. I live in a capitalist country, but there's no dollar easier to get from any human being than the dollar of a parent that you worried that something terrible could happen to your kid and said, but wait, I have a cure, or I have a, you know, a way of preventing that. But I think the overarching sort of meta problem is that we really think we can control everything. We can control everything that our kids are exposed to. See, hear, read, eat, lick, notice, and that we can control the outcomes if we just pay more attention, if we just watch every single thing they do. And I think that's the reason that parents are so nervous today, because we've tasked them with something impossible, which is making another person into exactly who you want them to be and keeping them absolutely safe from everything from, you know, from bullying to frustration to boredom to sadness, to ever feeling excluded to ever having a sniffle. You can't do that, but because the promise is that you can, if you do this or work on this or buy this, then you start feeling like anytime anything bad happens to your kid, it's your fault, and that makes you terrified.
- [04:22]
A
You are the queen of the free parenting movement.
- [04:25]
B
Yeah.
- [04:25]
A
What does that really mean in practice?
- [04:27]
B
In practice, it means that people think I'm much more wild than I am. I wish they knew that. I always say I'm part helicopter on my mom's side because I worry just like everyone else. The one thing I don't worry about, I guess, is strangers. And so maybe that's because I was a reporter for so many years here in New York City, going to every neighborhood and never doing sad stories, never. Never covering fires or things like that. I was always just meeting people. I would get off the subway and I wouldn't let myself get back on until I'd met somebody and found out their story and figured out something to write about. And in doing that, you really realize how trust makes sense. Even though we're told not to trust, I think that the world is more interesting and actually you'll have a better life. And this is a weird tangent, I guess, but there's something called. I can never remember if it's primals or priors, but it's how you're raised. And people think that if you're raising kids to tell them, look, it's a tough world out there. You gotta watch out for yourself, don't be a patsy. Everyone's out to get you. Parents think that they're preparing their kids so that they won't be taken advantage of, so that they'll have a better life. But there was this one giant long term study, like over the course from childhood to adulthood, that found that kids raised that way actually didn't have great outcomes. They were less happy in their marriages, they were less successful in their careers, and they had more psychological problems. And, you know, there's a lot that goes on between childhood and adulthood. And God knows if it's just that, but it was interesting to me that the one thing that the parents thought that they were gifting their kids this gift of suspicion and, you know, get your hackles up, turned out not to be great. And I was just reading a novel by the guy who wrote Downton Abbey. One of the characters says, you know, it's better to be gullible than to be suspicious. And I thought, isn't that interesting? Even gullibility? She's not saying trusting, she's saying like almost stupidly trusting or excessively trusting. And the book certainly proves that, and I think there's something wise to that. And we're in a culture that says, don't be trusting, don't trust your kid, don't trust your neighborhood, don't trust the Uber driver. You know, pick up your kid from the bus stop every day. You can't trust your neighbors on that three, three block walk home. And I'd say that there's something life giving about trust.
- [06:46]
A
That is a very hard concept for a lot of parents today, I think, to find agreeable. I know because of just the state.
- [06:57]
B
Of where we're at, I am keenly aware how hard it is to think that your kid can ever do anything on their own, safely or successfully. Because we live in a culture that is sort of infusing the air with fear and then you breathe it in. If we were on Staten island right now, it looks like it's, you know, it's clear. Right. The air we're breathing doesn't seem like a giant dark cloud. Right?
- [07:22]
A
Right.
- [07:22]
B
But if you're on Staten island looking at Manhattan, there's a giant dark cloud. It's smoggy and gross. So I feel like in a way we're in this culture where we're breathing in the smog of fear and we don't see it. I was just watching an ad for one of the tracking apps. And it showed a mom fantasizing, like, well, you know, the minute you're out of my sight, I think of you being, you know, murdered or kidnapped or chopped into pieces. They showed a lot of chopping into pieces. And this was sort of presented kind of funny but kind of normal. And I'm not immune to fear either. I hate fear and I feel it nonetheless. But this was normalizing, a level of fear for when your child just walks out the door to go across the street to the park or to go a couple blocks away to visit a friend. And I feel that's so unfair to us as parents to make us so scared about everyday activities. And I know that it feels natural, but I know that it's not natural because your parents. Well, let me ask you a question. Did your parents think that every time you left the house something bad was gonna happen?
- [08:29]
A
No, my parents. I actually brought this up to my mom. She came and visited me for Mother's Day. And I said, you know, you were really lenient about me going, coming and going places, having sleepovers. I mean, I was always out of my house, going somewhere, playing outside all day long, had no idea where I was. And I said, have you ever thought about that? That you were really lenient? And she was like, no. Like, it was. I. I guess that wasn't something that she really worried about. But I'm also like, well, was that a cultural thing in the 90s that most parents were like that, and now most are not? Or was my mom the exception? I don't know.
- [09:06]
B
No, your mom was part of the social norm back then. My mom, a generation earlier, was too. When I walked to school in the morning, I'd go around the corner and she wouldn't see me until 3 o' clock or whenever I came home. And then I'd have my cookies and milk, God forgive me. And then I would go out and play some more, or I would go upstairs and read. But nobody thought that she was being neglectful. You didn't walk her to school. What about she had to cross the street? Yeah, I did. And the crossing guard was a kid because back then we trusted kids to stop the traffic. And then that became abnormal. And it's not because the world got less safe. It's because the world started feeling less safe. And I think it's for the reasons we were just discussing. There's so much more media. Law and order hadn't been invented when I was a kid. I mean, it's like, been the Most seen show in the world. And when I was growing up, there wasn't cable television. That's how long ago it was. Once you had cable TV, then you had the 24 hour news cycle, which hadn't been possible until then. And so you have to fill up time with something bad that will keep people watching. And so some kidnappings got extremely publicized. That's when they put the pictures on the milk cartons. Have you heard of that?
- [10:16]
A
Yep. Of course.
- [10:17]
B
Yeah. Okay, you're too young. You heard about it, you didn't see it. But today's parents grew up looking at those pictures. And the terrible thing about that campaign is it said, missing, have you seen me? And you're like, oh my God, that poor kid. And it is too bad. But generally they were taken in custodial disputes between divorced parents or they were runaways.
- [10:38]
A
Right.
- [10:38]
B
And stranger danger today remains the least common crime. And so I actually want kids to be safe. And I have a really simple thing to teach kids, if you're game. Yeah. Well, you know that most crimes against kids are not committed by strangers. They're committed by people they know. So if you teach them the three Rs, this is going to keep them a lot safer than telling them, don't talk to strangers. And the three R's are this, recognize, no one can touch you where your bathing suit covers. You can teach this to very little kids. It's like teaching them stop, drop and roll for, you know, a fire so no one can recognize, no one can touch you. Wear your bathing suit covers. Resist, run, kick, scream. You don't have to be nice to adults. You don't have to be nice to anyone. If they're bothering you, you just get make them feel it. And then the third R. So that's resist. And the third R is report. Tell me. Even if someone says, this is a secret or I'm going to hurt somebody, nobody will get hurt, I won't be mad at you, just come and tell me. So you're removing the molester's favorite friend, which is secrecy, and you're making it much more likely that they will be safe than telling them. Don't talk to strangers. Instead of telling kids, don't talk to strangers. What I learned when I was writing my book, I didn't come up with this idea, is tell kids you can talk to anyone. You cannot go off with anyone because if they are scared or in trouble or need some help of any sort, you want them to be able to talk to, you know, the guy across the street. You know, or the other person on the sidewalk. No, I can't talk to you. No, you can. You just can't go off with them. And also, kids don't know who's a stranger. You talk to the clerk at the store, is that a stranger? Is that my friend? I don't know. So just tell them, talk to anyone. Don't go off with anyone.
- [12:19]
A
And I like that.
- [12:20]
B
Simple.
- [12:21]
A
You went viral and were dubbed America's worst mom for letting your 9 year old son ride the New York City subway alone. My burning question is, it's been nearly 20 years. Would you still allow him to do that if he was nine years old today?
- [12:37]
B
I believe I would, but, you know, it's theoretical. Yes. I mean, I'm still on the subways all the time. You gave me an Uber to come here, but I was thinking I would have taken the subway. And they're not pretty, but they are safe.
- [12:49]
A
So. So I think for my audience that is largely unfamiliar with New York City life, we see the stories of people being pushed into the subway tracks, of the woman catching on fire, of the rampant crime, the stabbings, the harassment, naked people, all of it. And we're like, how in the world could you allow a small child in that environment without any adult protection? And what's your response?
- [13:14]
B
Well, I think there is a lot of adult protection of kids on the subway because there's a lot of people like me on the subway. Most people are not naked and on fire on the subway or stabbing people. I understand the desire to keep kids safe, but I also understand how sticky these stories are. People catching on fire. There was one woman, it was a horrible story and she was burned. I mean, I hate talking about it because now the picture is coming back in our minds. So I'm gonna talk about the way our minds work, like Google. And then there's something else I wanted to say and hopefully I'll remember what it was. But the mind working like goog Google is this, which is that if I asked my, you know, if I asked Google, is there a great, you know, where's the best Mexican food around here? Up would come, you know, Los tacos and Los burritos. All these restaurants ranked. And I would, this would be very interesting and important information for me and useful if I ask my mind, is the New York City subway safe? And up comes person on tracks and person stabbed to death and person on fire. And these are stories that have been gathered over the course of 45 years, and they're over the course of 6 million people a day, which ends up being like a trillion people a year. And so they come to the top and they feel relevant because they're so easy to remember. I can't remember all the people like me bored last night, annoyed that the train is taking forever, but getting home safe and sound. And so the brain thinks that what is most easy to retrieve is the most relevant. It's called the availability heuristic, which is a term that I finally memorized. Nobody uses it, but the easier it is to remember something or to come up with a picture in your brain, the more common and important and likely you think that information is. But in this case, when it comes to crime, it's not. It's the extreme exception. And so I'm so concerned about my kids living and being safe and hopefully surviving me. And yet I let my kids do things in the world because I think I have this sort of rational brain that goes, well, something bad could happen. But if I drove my kids, I mean, that's the number one way kids die is as car passengers. And nobody ever says, lenore, I heard you drove your child to the dentist. We'll be talking about that.
- [15:30]
A
You know what? That's a very valid point, right? I ran out of my Zebra toothpaste tablets the other week while I was traveling. I'm in NYC so I gotta walk around to this corner store to grab something. And I kid you not, there is a man peeing in the produce aisle like next to the kale. Moral of the story, stay stocked on Zebra so you never find yourself scavenging for backup oral care at a store where that can happen. Zebra makes toothpaste tablets that are clean, effective and easy to use. Just chew, brush and go. They're fluoride free and hydroxy appetite free by design because you shouldn't need questionable ingredients for a fresh foamy clean. Now hydroxyapatite. Just to give you a little refresher, you can go back and listen to my zebra interview that I did with them last October. Hydroxyapatite. It might be good for you, it may not be good for you. It wasn't good for me. I was getting dark spots on my teeth. Switching to xylitol based toothpaste, which is what zebra is. Totally saved my teeth. The dark spots went away. Bonus. Kids love the toothpaste tablets. They're way less messy than tooth powder. So floss Zebra has that too. Most natural floss brand, okay? They do not use polyester or pfas. Zebras floss is made of real silk with peppermint oil and xylitol 0 detectable PFAS. No microplastics. Just clean ingredients from gumline to tongue. Avoid sketchy stores. Even sketchier ingredients stock up. Yay Zebra.com use code Alex for 10 off. That's Yay Zebra.com code Alex. Are you a teacher, school administrator, or parent who wants education to be about more than just facts? If you want students to grow mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, ready to face life with wisdom and courage, then don't miss Turning Point Academy's educator summit. That's July 10th through 13th in Tampa, Florida. Like Charlie Kirk, Dr. Ben Carson, Congresswoman Mary Miller are going to join us to rethink education and inspire real change. This is more than just a conference. It is a movement. And registration is actually free to attend. So if you want to go, you just have to sign up@turningpointacademy.com Ed Summit turningpoint academy.com Ed Summit and help us raise the next generation of bold leaders. How did you even come up with that challenge idea in the first place that you were going to?
- [17:46]
B
Wasn't mine. Because our younger son, who was 9 at the time, Izzy, always wanted to. Like, I think this is how most kids grew up. They want to be older. You know, you want to learn how to ride your bike, you want to get your driver's license. You want to go and, you know, have your own agency, be part of the world. And so he was asking me and my husband for a while, like, can I please take me someplace I've never been before and let me find my own way home by subway. I'm like, my husband and I talked about it. I was like, I don't know. This is weird. Our older son hadn't asked us this. We hadn't thought about it. But finally we decided, well, on a Sunday, you know, maybe that's fine. And we'll just take him to Bloomingdale's, which is a super fancy department store. Cause there's a subway stop right in Bloomingdale's underneath the store. And then he could take the subway down to 34th Street. We all know Miracle on 34th Street. And it's, you know, a train ride, a subway system that he'd been on since he was born every day, going to. Everything that we go to, we go to on subway. And so we finally decided, yes. And my husband sat on the ground with him with a map and made sure he understood. This is the line. Yes, yes, he knows this. And also, I do trust most people, and I don't think that's crazy, because he actually did go into the subway and, like, am I on the downtown side? And the guy said, no, you gotta go up and over. He didn't go with the guy, but the guy said, you gotta go over to the other side to take the downtown train. And then he took the train. And then from there, you had to take a bus across town. And we're always on that bus. We moved, thank God, to someplace that you don't always have to take a bus to get to. But then he got on the bus, this boring, slow bus, and came home so proud. Beyond proud. So excited. So excited. He was part of the world. We had trusted him. He had, you know, like Mount Everest or even better than Mount Everest. He was just a regular New Yorker now, not just a little kid. And that's the driving impetus for most childhood. It's like, you want to do things that make you a person in full. And he felt like that was his comeuppance. He was there.
- [19:49]
A
How did it feel to see all these headlines when that was going on calling you America's worst mom?
- [19:54]
B
I know that some of it was just insane, like, I'm not America's worst mom if they knew that. Like, when he turned 10, the party gift I gave all the kids for his birthday party was a mouth guard in case they were playing sports. So I think I'm a pretty safety conscious person. We didn't have a car, so we would take a car seat with us whenever we took a cab. I mean, I'd say I err on the side of safety. So being called, like, oh, she doesn't care. Evil Knievel, that was a little crazy. But I did have a minor breakdown at one point because I worried about jinxing things or fate or God saying, ha, ha, you thought your son was gonna be sa. I just worried, like, the minute you say, I think my son is gonna be fine, it's like asking for lightning to strike. Yeah.
- [20:41]
A
So how did you get over that?
- [20:42]
B
I guess I knew myself better than that, that I, you know, that I am a mom who loves her children and wants them to be safe. And also, as much as there were people against me, the first comment on my blog that I started, the Free Range Kids blog, was, and I thought, okay, we know what we're dealing with. But there were also so many people who are, like, saying, I miss my childhood. I loved what I could do, or, I'm trying to do this in my town, and people think that I'm crazy, but it's the school. You know, I went to that school when I was a kid, and we live in the same house that I lived in. And now I can't let my kid walk there. It just feels like a clampdown on freedom and trust. And so I'd say I got a lot of support from other parents, especially moms.
- [21:31]
A
Has crime against children in America gotten worse since the 90s? Gotten better or stayed the same?
- [21:38]
B
It's gotten way better. And then people say that's because we're helicopter parenting them and never letting them out of our sight. But crime is down the same amount against adults because crime has gone down. It's not crime against one sector or another. In New York City in the early 90s, crime peaked in 93. Here there were over 2,000 murders a year. And now I think there's about 2 to 300 out of a city of 8 million. And generally it's not random crime. I mean, it's sad. It's still sad, but it is generally like, you know, terrible neighborhoods and gangs.
- [22:12]
A
At what age do you think free range parenting should ideally start?
- [22:16]
B
I don't know. What do you think?
- [22:17]
A
I think five.
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B
You do? Good for you. Oh, my God.
- [22:22]
A
And this is where we get into the nitty gritty. The reason you're here is because my head was put on a stake by some in my audience.
- [22:32]
B
And yet here it is attached.
- [22:33]
A
And here it is attached. And that was because I posed a question to them one day. I was thinking about a lot of things. One, I was asking them, would you allow your child to have a sleepover? Almost like 98% of my audience, no sleepovers ever. Doesn't even matter if it's a grandparent. Nothing. Nothing. Their kids. No one is allowing sleepovers. It's basically extinct. After that conversation, I kind of pivoted and I was like, okay, well, here's another idea. Just if we're talking about unpopular parenting ideas, here's another one. Would you allow, and this is my fault, is I was posting this on Instagram stories, and I didn't give enough context of what I was thinking in my mind.
- [23:08]
B
Oh, you can be pilloried. Yes, but. Yes.
- [23:10]
A
So all I said was, would you allow your 5 year old to go into a store with your card if you waited outside.
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B
Yeah.
- [23:17]
A
To buy something and come back out. And they were like, no way. And I guess everybody was kind of assuming that I meant like a huge big box store, like a Walmart or something.
- [23:25]
B
And I just was thinking like the local grocery.
- [23:27]
A
Yes.
- [23:28]
B
Like a Little like Dunkin Donuts.
- [23:29]
A
Yes, your Dunkin Donuts, your deli, your chick. Like something smaller where it's like you go there every day. They know, like they've been there a million times.
- [23:36]
B
Yes.
- [23:36]
A
Going to the barber. I'm here for my appointment. Something to just like test independence. And I had said the, the age 5 years old, people you would not believe. I mean, people thought I was saying, like, send your 5 year old off to Europe alone. Like, and they were saying if I saw a child even 789, going into a Chick fil a to buy a smoothie or something, a milkshake, while the parent was outside, I would call cps. I mean, this was like all over. And they were like, alex, this is outrageous. There is no five year old that will be ready for this. And I was like thinking, I am sorry, but I completely disagree. And Mike Lanza, I asked him this question and you know, we talked about this a little bit in his episode and I said this and he was like, well, every kid is different. I was like, exactly. Some five year olds I know absolutely no way do I think that they would be ready to go into a store and purchase a banana and come out. Some 5 year olds I know could run circles around that. They'd be like, give me the whole grocery list. Some 7 year olds I know couldn't do it. Some 9 year olds I know couldn't do it. It totally depends on the kid. And I'm just assuming, sue me. That a parent knows their own kid well enough to say like, yes, I could see. Some 5 year olds could do this, some couldn't. Just like, some 5 year olds can read, some can.
- [24:46]
B
You have to forgive me.
- [24:48]
A
Oh.
- [24:51]
B
Are you. How amazing.
- [24:54]
A
Thank you. Amazing.
- [24:55]
B
Oh my.
- [24:55]
A
Thank you. Yeah, so. That's so cute. I. So anyway, they were so irate and people were like, I'm unfollowing you. Whatever, Unfound. And I'm just like, I don't understand this. I feel like I'm seeing childhood totally slip through the cracks. And it's devastating to me as somebody whose parents were very much go outside and play, ride your bike around the neighborhood, know your neighbors. I'm going to drop you off at people's houses, have playdates, whatever. Now, they knew the people, but we're. We. I'm just seeing stuff so extreme. I'm seeing people taking their kids to the park. Their kids cannot even play in the park without their parent right next to them. They can't even go sit on the bench where you have Sight of your kid, I mean, it's just out of control. And so I had made the comment, I was like, okay, the fact that everybody's so up in arms about this, I said, if this is how we're going to parent kids like this, just hanging on for dear life so tightly, the kids are cooked now. I said this and they were like, that is the most offensive thing that you could have said. Maybe it was a little insensitive, I don't know. That's fine. Maybe I could have said it nicer. But I just mean we have to take a step back and take a break. And everyone's response. Lenore was human trafficking. My kid even going into a store to buy something, they're gonna get trafficked. And I would never allow a sleepover because everyone's gonna be sexually abused or my kid is gonna see something on a screen that I don't want them to see. All valid things. I'm the same way when I say that I'm pro sleepover, which is highly controversial now with this generation, I say I'm pro sleepover. My caveat. My caveats are I want my husband and I to know this family like the back of our hand. We're very close with them. We do things together as our families all the time. I wouldn' say anyone, I'll drop you off their house. But people that we are very close to, that we align with in all the different things, you know, and so maybe this is a close family from church or what have you. It's like, we know these people. That's who I would allow a sleepover with. Now. That's my whole tirade.
- [26:54]
B
I love it. I can't wait to like repost this everywhere. It's so. It's so beautiful to hear this from somebody young. Thanks. And somebody who isn't me.
- [27:05]
A
Thanks.
- [27:06]
B
It's so great. I mean, what you're really asking for people to do is to recognize that kids are part of the world. And I remember a long time ago, somebody had written to my site, she'd been castigated, as you were, because she let her 4 year old wait in the children's room of her local library while she went upstairs to get a book. It took less than three minutes. And she had written something about it. Somehow it was public knowledge and everybody was screaming at her and saying, I wouldn't leave my kid for 30 seconds, much less three minutes. And it's like, well, so do you think that the librarian was gonna get out her machete? You know, was somebody Gonna climb through the window? Was there a chalice of poison that they were just waiting? I hope the mom leaves. And they knew that the mom would leave, so they'd gotten the chalice ready. I mean, it's a level of fear that is difficult to live with because it means that your child is in danger from everyone and everything all the time. And that's why I get mad at this pollution. I don't think that this generation of parents is crazy or that individual parents are harpy helicopters, and I hate them. It's not that at all. It's that for all of a generation, for almost 98% of your listeners, viewers, to think that no child is ever safe sleeping over at a friend's house is a terrible way. It's a burden on the parents because it means that I guess I have to be with my child every second or lock them in their room or follow them or track them or stand next to them. And one of my theories about, like, how did we get to this point is it's a little bit undermining women, right? Because it's generally the mom who is tasked with keeping the kids safe and being with them all the time. And that means that, like, rather than having any free time or doing well at her job, you know, I mean, all these schools that make the kid not get off the bus unless there's somebody there waiting to walk them home, that's the mom who then has to be at a job that ends at three so she can stand out there in the freezing cold of an Indiana winter and wait for the bus that's slightly late so that she can walk the kid home. Three houses. That is safe. I mean, if that's not safe, nothing is safe. And that's what I think is interesting. When you asked his childhood independence cooked. If you think that nothing is safe enough. Not sleeping over at a friend's house, not going into the deli to get a Twinkie. I know you probably don't think the Twinkie is good to get a kind bar, you know, good correction, Laura. There you go. Right cut, cut. You know, going into the deli and coming back out within a few minutes, you know, with the money, with you standing out there, you're really living in a horror movie, right? Where the rotating knives are waiting for them wherever. One guy who decided to try this, a guy named Drew Perkins, he lives somewhere in, I can't remember, I think it's Tennessee. He decided to let his kids, and they were older, I think they were like 12 and 14 or around that age, go into the Food lion or whatever it was in his town with a shopping list and get a few things. And he was so scared, even after talking to me, right? He was so scared that he parked the car in the fire lane because that way he could see the entrance and the food dock. The dock where the food. And then along came a policeman saying, like, you're in the fire lane. He was actually making everyone less safe by being there. And also, were you so worried that they would either be trafficked out the front door or trafficked out the back door? Two kids together, tweens teens with a grocery list at your local grocery, where they've come with you since they were zero and now they're 12 and 14. It is so hard to recognize that things are pretty safe. And so after he did that, his kids were so excited. They had a fantastic time and they wanted to do it again. And then it got looser because then reality takes the place of the fear. The fear is taking up most of our brains now because we've been told that that's wise and that's kind and that's necessary. And then you start realizing actually it's wise and kind and necessary to give them a little free range to Let Grow, as my organization is called now, and you breathe easier. And the sad fact about what is happening to kids today is we all know that there's this childhood and adolescent mental health crisis, right. You've read about this, right? That children's anxiety and depression are sky high. And it's really sad. I mean, when you actually look at the numbers, they're. They are depressing themselves. But Peter Gray, who's one of the co founders with me of Let Grow, did a study. He's a professor of psychology at Boston College, and he did a study that went back decades. Not just since COVID and not just since the iPhone, but decades. And he found that over the decades, as children's independence and free play and your kind of childhood went down, their anxiety and depression and self harm.
- [32:08]
A
Exactly. Went up. That's exactly right. Because their world is living on this algorithm that's making them more stressed out and anxious. They have no community, they have no socialization outside of the Internet.
- [32:20]
B
It's sad.
- [32:21]
A
So what are your practical steps? Let's say, what would be practical free range parenting, Baby steps to take with a toddler versus elementary school versus middle school.
- [32:30]
B
For example, Toddlers are little and they don't know enough and you gotta watch them. Yeah, right. Okay. By the time your kid is in kindergarten, first grade. So Let Grow is the nonprofit that grew out of Free Range kids. And our goal is to make it easy, normal and legal for kids to have some independence again and to grow up kind of, you know, healthy and confident. Jonathan Haidt is one of the other co founders with me and he wrote the Anxious Generation. And he is always saying that a collective problem, which is that nobody thinks that anything is safe enough for their kids to do anymore, needs a collective solution. Everybody loosening the reins just a little together so that they. You don't feel like the oddball, you're not the nut, people aren't hating on you. And so what we have is two free programs. Everything we do is free for schools. And one is called the Let Grow experience. And that's kids, get this, I'd say extremely simple homework assignment, everyone from K through 12. And it says go home and do something new on your own with your parents permission, but without your parents. And then we have a list of things and you can do some of the things in the home. You can bake and take the cookies out of the oven yourself. You can walk the dog, you can climb a tree, you can go to the store, you can get that Chick Fil a milkshake that I am now longing for. Cause you mentioned it and because everyone's doing it and the kids are sort of comparing notes and the teacher is encouraging it and the parents are comparing notes and often posting like, look, my kid made dinner. Look, my kid got us the juice. I mean, it's so easy to start feeling extremely different. And I say that because I've watched it happen. Nervous, nervous parents. I once did it with a couple. I supervised them doing this in Queens, where I live. And the dad had grown up completely free range in New Mexico. Him and his twin brother had been riding bareback horses in the gullies. I don't even know what a gully is. At age 10, he was actually fond about the gullies. And he wouldn't let his 12 year old walk home the few blocks from school. And he was always so nervous. He would either get them or the wife would get them. And so when I came there, I said, well, you remember your childhood a lot? Yes. Did you like it? Loved it. Do you think it made you who you are? Yes, for sure. Made me confident. Confident enough to move to New York and start a business and raise a family. I'm like, but you're treating your 12 year old like, you know, he's not riding bareback through whatever gullies are. And he said, that's true. So what they decided to do for their Let Grow experience was to let the kids walk to the little grocery that was about three blocks from home, which involved crossing some streets. The cameraman followed them part of the way. And you see the kids holding hands with each other and looking. Cause a good parent teaches their kids to look both ways before crossing the street. And then they're out of sight. And the parents are on the porch like this, on the steps in front.
- [35:23]
A
Of their house, gritting their teeth, gritting.
- [35:25]
B
Their teeth for a while. And then after a while, you can't grit anymore. And you're just like, okay, you know, And. But then like, is that them? Is that. Yes. Yes, it's them. And the kids were walking. Then the kids start running. Look, we got the cranberry juice. That's what they wanted, to get, the cranberry juice. And then they got the cranberry juice. And the parents were proud. And we drank the cranberry juice and we toasted this wonderful day. And. And what was neat is that six months later, I needed somebody that I could talk to about, like, does this thing work? So I went back to the family and found out that now the son, on his way home, stops at the park and plays baseball with his friends. And the daughter walks home. And that the dad had gone home, the family had gone home to New Mexico, where his nephew was a pastor. And he said, the weirdest thing has happened. He said to his cousin or his nephew, I started letting my kids do stuff on their own. And the pastor said something that I just loved. He said, I'm not surprised because you've always been a man who had faith in God, and now you have faith in your children. And I thought that was so great, because it really is faith. And what's being leached out of us is faith in anything other than us. We're not even allowed to trust God or the odds or. Or life. You're only allowed to trust yourself with your kid all the time. And that strikes me as kind of. It's not that it's atheistic, but it's a big burden on you if you think that you are God, right? And that you have to know absolutely everything your kid is doing and be with them and omniscient about their lives. And you're not omnipotent. So it's this burden of feeling like you must be God, and if anything, God forbid, does go wrong. So you say, God forbid. But if anything does go wrong, you're going to be blamed. Which is also unfair because somebody once wrote to me with the best saying, which is the vast number of times that anything bad happens to a kid. It's bad luck, not bad parenting. But we like to think of it as bad parenting because we don't want to have to do with it. We want to say like if I just watch my kid every single second, everything they do see, eat, wear, every place they go, every overnight that I never let them go on, then they'll be fine. And if something bad happened to your kid, well, I guess you didn't really care. You slacked off mom. And it's like where's the grace?
- [37:42]
A
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- [39:13]
B
Oh that's interesting.
- [39:14]
A
How do you respond to that worry.
- [39:16]
B
Kids are gonna see things you don't want them to see? It's a sad fact. The world is filled with things and some are bad and Some are good. And so if you don't want them to be part of the world, then you've taken them out of the world. And that seems pretty dramatic.
- [39:33]
A
And I think a lot of this is this. They do not want their child too young to see pornography.
- [39:38]
B
I don't want them either. Yeah, right.
- [39:40]
A
And so that's what they're scared about is because you can't control how other families deal with screens. If it's, you know, like the neighborhood kids playing together or something.
- [39:48]
B
Well, the neighborhood kids playing together is also really great. I mean, if you want your kids to learn how to deal with each other, how to make something happen, how to have fun, not on a screen. You know, you want kids playing together, you want different age kids playing together. One lady, you know, all my ideas are not mine. People send them to me, as you can tell. Cause I keep saying, one lady said, one mom told me. But one mom told me a great idea. She created something she calls friendship camp. And that is that there's four, I guess, four other families in the neighborhood where her kid is friends with their kids and the parents are sort of friends too. And those are four families whose door you can always knock on. And if the kid is home and doesn't have a piano lesson and is done with homework, your kid is allowed in. And if those kids come to your house and you're not in the middle of dinner or whatever, you just let them in. So if there are some families that you know and you know, believe, have your same values, make a pact with them. Let's have a friendship camp. And at least your kids have some mobility and some spontaneity because you're not creating every play date. You're saying, well, go and see if, you know, those kids are around.
- [40:52]
A
I like that suggestion. I also often hear, you know, I'm okay with this free range parenting thing. I like Lenore's ideas, I like Alex's ideas. But I live X, Y and Z. Fill in the blank. I live rural in the country. So this is impossible for me. I live in a big city. This is impossible for me. And so, you know, I guess my question is, are there geographical areas where free range parenting is impossible?
- [41:17]
B
Maybe, but I haven't heard of them per se. There are places where people are so far from their neighbors, but that doesn't mean your kids can't play with each other outside or one of the other. So the two things that Let Grow recommends, which I do think are the easiest ways to make childhood a little different, is that Let grow experience where kids do something new on their own. And if you're in the rural area, you climb a tree. And if you're in a neighborhood, you know, like mine, you take a bus, right? Or you go to the bodega. But the other thing is to keep the schools open after school for mixed age. No phones, free play, because you got all the kids there already, right? And if they go home, you know, they'll either be on a phone or they'll be in an organized activity, which can be fun, but it's not the kids, you know, negotiating what they're gonna play, and that's not fair, and making the decisions and all the interpersonal skills that come naturally with free play, right? So you have cardboard boxes out there. You tell everybody, bring the junk from home. Bring some cans. Bring some old, you know, I guess you can't bring old tires. That's kind of hard. Bring an old suitcase, right? Bring a wig. You know, just some fun stuff to play with. And some balls and some chalk. And I just heard of kids doing this in high school for a week last week. Because it was like, the teacher who suggested it thought, well, they're not gonna know how to play. They're old and they've grown up, you know, going to soccer and Mandarin every day after school. And they had a ball. And she was so smart. She did a study before and after. Like, tell me your stress levels. Tell me your loneliness levels and how many friends you have. And of course their stress plummeted. And of course their loneliness plummeted and they made new friends. Cause it was different age kids. And it's what kids are programmed for. It's all mammals are programmed to play. And the play drive in kids is so strong that they know how to do it even when they've been deprived of a lot of play, Even when all their play has been supervised and structured until then. And the play drive was put into kids so they would learn how to deal with each other, how to the problem. Oh, no, the ball went over the fence. Now what? Well, let's play with a can, or I'll hold you up and you go over the fence. I mean, problem solving is really fun. And when we're with our kids, we solve their problems.
- [43:25]
A
So like in New York City, which is where you live, for example, they have these playgrounds, like right in the middle of the city. Would you, if you had younger kids today, be like, well, if you were really close, walk down there and play at the park by yourself and come back?
- [43:39]
B
Yeah, but but playing alone, as I said, is boring. So it would generally be with a friend, you know, to take a, take a basketball or go to a bat, you know, take a basketball and see who's there and play with them.
- [43:50]
A
Some argue that the laws and the culture in America today wouldn't allow for somebody to be a free range parent even if they wanted to try like that. They're too nervous. CPS will be called on them.
- [44:02]
B
I understand. Yeah.
- [44:03]
A
What do you say to that?
- [44:04]
B
Most states are pretty ambiguous when it comes to what is neglect and what isn't. And they often say something in the law that says parents must provide proper supervision. Well, what we think is proper supervision and what somebody else thinks is proper supervision is often different. So we like a law that makes it a little narrower and says neglect is when you put your kid in obvious and serious danger. The three year old outside on the highway at night. Something that everybody would agree this is just dumb. Leaving your kids for a weekend and you go to the casino and there's, you know, heroin in the house. That's neglect. And so we call this the reasonable childhood independence law. And it helps the free range let grow parents. But it also helps parents in poverty. Cause sometimes you have a single mom, she's working two jobs, she knows her kid is gonna be fine coming home with a latch key, the old fashioned latchkey, and being home from 3 to 5 because mom's working her second shift.
- [45:04]
A
So little teeny tiny hour increments like that, being left home alone. My parents started letting me do that at nine.
- [45:11]
B
Okay.
- [45:12]
A
Yeah. And I was also at nine years old, allowed to the house right next door while my parents were home. Allowed to babysit two 2 year old twins while the parents went to a quick dinner. Now my parents were right there if I needed help or anything. But I had been around babies, I loved helping them. I was reading all about babysitting and taking at even at 9 and so that was so special to me to get to take care of kids.
- [45:36]
B
So I'll just say that we've passed that law in nine states so far and we have two. Two are about to be signed by the time this airs. It will also probably be the law now in Florida and Missouri, but it's another nine states. If you go to letgrow.org and you click on laws, you can see if your state has passed one of them yet.
- [45:54]
A
And you guys were working on this, didn't this happen? Some parent got CPS called on her in Georgia or something very recently.
- [46:00]
B
So the law Just passed.
- [46:02]
A
You guys helped?
- [46:03]
B
No, we don't help. We just publicize the case. I was the first person to write about this case. A mom was taking another one of her kids to the doctor and her 10 year old was supposed to stay home with grandpa and he didn't. He decided to walk to town because he's a person, not a thing, and not kids. You know, kids are gonna do some things that we don't agree with and we actually don't even want them to do. But. So he walks to town and somebody sees him and calls 911 and the cops call the mom and say, hey, your son is out here. Did you know that? She's like, no, I thought he was home. Well, how come you didn't know it? It's like, like. Cause he left home without telling his grandpa. His grandpa's at home. It's like, well, you should have known. And she was arrested. It was an insane case. She was handcuffed in front of her family and taken to jail and got out soon. But still the hubris of that other person who called 911 after she talked to a 10 year old who said, yeah, I decided to walk here and I saw my friend's grandma works at the Dollar Tree and I was saying hi to her and it's like that should be the end of it. And I think one of the reasons that we even hear about these cases today is because the passerby has a phone. You know, if you'd seen a 10 year old walk into town and you had to remember when you got home to, I better call the police. There was that kid outside. Nobody would call because it would leave your mind. It's so nothing, right? But somehow she thinks that she's helping this kid or helping, you know, or teaching the mom a lesson or something. I mean, I don't know what people think when they're calling 911 to say, I saw a child outside like a, an escaped lemur from the zoo. But it can lead to a cascade of misery. And that's why we're trying to change the laws. But I wanted to go back to you being a nine year old babysitter. Yeah. What was so cool?
- [47:35]
A
Oh, just feeling like I was capable, gaining confidence. I can do this. I can take care of somebody. You know, Felt like so special, like adults. Trust me. Yeah.
- [47:48]
B
And it was not just the, it was not just your parents. It was these neighbors and they're trusting their most beloved things on earth to you. A nine year old. What a.
- [47:57]
A
Now it isn't like they didn't know me, you know, And I. And they knocked on her door one day and said, can your daughter babysit our kids? They were right next door and they, their kids would be playing outside and I'd be playing outside and playing with their twins and always, you know, doting on them and taking care of them. And so it was an agreement between those parents and my parents of like, hey, Alex or Alexandra loves our sons. Like we were thinking, go right down the street. We love to have, you know, an hour and a half to have a dinner together as new parents. If you guys are home and she's, you know, capable of asking for help, do you think that would be okay if we go to reasonable hour, blah, blah, blah. And they're like, yeah, let's do it. And, you know, shortly after that, I think I did like an American Red Cross babysitter course at maybe 10 or 11. Learn CPR, all those things. I was very into babysitting and being a mother's helper and all of that. So, yeah, I had spent time getting to know those kids. But now, I mean, I. And all of my. Everyone in my life that I know with kids, I mean, they'd all be like, there is no way in hell a nine year old, even with parents home or whatever I would allow to watch my toddlers.
- [49:01]
B
So let's talk about that, because that has nothing to do with crime. Right? That's just trust. Yeah. These neighbors saw who you were, saw how responsible you were, saw how kind you were, saw you as a person. And then they also saw their life as something that they could take an hour and a half off from being with their kids. And so that's. Once again, we're getting back to trust. They trusted you, they trusted your parents, they trusted the neighborhood. And they also didn't think it was evil of them to take their eyes off their kids for an hour and a half, or that the world was so dangerous, or that their children were in such dire night straits that an hour and a half would constitute disaster. And why I feel for today's parents is the fact that it's so hard to breathe like that, to believe in you, in the children's viability, in your responsibility, in the neighborhood's decency, in the odds. And to see it all instead as automatic horror.
- [50:13]
A
Right.
- [50:14]
B
There's a guy named Bruce Schneier. Only guys know about him. He's like Mr. Techie and he understands all sorts about everything about security. And he came up with a phrase that helps Me and it's called movie plot threat. And he said that the more a fear is like a movie plot, the less likely it is to happen.
- [50:40]
A
So I was getting ready for a date the other night, face beat, feeling cute. And this thought hits me. Am I about to break out in 24 hours because of this makeup? Nothing kills the vibe like planning for a breakout before the date even starts. That was my sign to stop messing around with sketchy ingredients and finally clean up my beauty routine. Try Adele Natural Cosmetics, a family owned brand making small batch non toxic makeup since 2014. Their moisturizing foundation stick is pure magic. It's hydrating, it blends effortlessly and gives that your skin but better finish. Now my tip for the foundation from Adele is you've got to get the dense foundation brush. You've got to apply your foundation with a brush. This goes for anything, but especially this adult foundation. Do not try to use your fingers. It's not going to blend right. No cakey buildup, no clogged pores. I pair that with their cream blush, which adds just the right pop of color on cheeks and eyelids. Oh, and their free color matching service makes getting your perfect foundation shade stress free. If you're ready to ditch the breakouts and breathe easy with your makeup, go to A Adele natural cosmetics.com use code Alex for 25 off your first order. That's Adele natural cosmetics.com code Alex. See, what I think is interesting about you is that you write about in your book how you were a parent at one point that was pretty fearful and you thought, well, okay, fine, it's only one in a million. But what if my kid is the one in a million? And I think that's what every parent is thinking. Is that okay, fine, the, you know, the statistics are very slim. It's very rare. But what if the rare occurrence is with my child?
- [52:13]
B
Right. That's why I say the only antidote for that fear. I mean, people always say I don't want my child to be a statistic. I'm like, yes you do. You want them to be the 999.999 repeating. But the only antidote to that worst, I call it worst first thinking, coming up with the worst case scenario first and proceeding if it's likely to happen or feeling like it's likely to happen is reality. The only thing that works is when those parents left and they came back and their kids were fine. Yeah, I'm sure the next time it was easier. The next time it was easier. And then the fourth time it's like, is, you know, is Alexander free tonight? Okay, great.
- [52:49]
A
So the happy medium a lot of parents are finding is like, okay, well, I'm not ready to be full blown free range parent, but I'm willing to let my kids play around the neighborhood. But I'm gonna have a tracker on them. I'm gonna have a give them a device and they're gonna have the tracker. They're gonna be wearing air tags or something like that where I can watch their every move. You are against this?
- [53:07]
B
I'm not against it. I feel like it doesn't actually make you feel that secure because once again, the idea is that of course they're in terrible danger, but I'm tracking them. And yet I live in the real world. I understand how popular tracking is because it's like, oh, are they almost home? Should I put the spaghetti on? I can understand that. And almost everyone is tracking. What I worry about to a certain extent is that you never really see that your kid is fine without you because you're always sort of with them. There was a Wall Street Journal article several years ago about a mom who wanted to give her kids, you know, a free range let grow childhood. She wanted to give her kids, like the childhood she had had. She always loved going to the creek in her neighborhood. And so when her daughter was eight, she said, okay, now you can go to the creek. I'll just give you a phone. And so the kid rode her bike to the creek and the bike chain fell off. And the kid called, you know, her dad immediately, who came out and fixed the bike. And then she got, you know, whatever went home or went on. But I'm like, that's not your childhood.
- [54:10]
A
The kid didn't have to problem solve what to do.
- [54:12]
B
That's literally it. Yeah, yeah. And she doesn't get to see that her parents trust her to problem solve because they're ready to jump in and she's ready to outsource it. And so there's something a little different when you have a phone, I'd say, than when you don't. But if that's what it takes to let your kid go out in the real world, and we live in a world where everybody has a phone or some sort of tracker, more power to you.
- [54:38]
A
Okay, so here's something really exciting that I was like dying to bring up with you that I think is fascinating.
- [54:43]
B
Oh, my God, yes. What's left? I'm trying to think.
- [54:45]
A
So ironically, I mean, your. I align the most with your parenting style. When I think about, like, What I want to be like as a mom one day. Okay. But ironically, one of my other favorite parenting books is Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother by Amy Chua.
- [55:00]
B
We love each other.
- [55:02]
A
This is what I want to get right.
- [55:03]
B
Right. Yes.
- [55:04]
A
This is fascinating to me. So the polar opposite of you is tiger parenting.
- [55:08]
B
She's not totally the opposite. I'll tell you where we. Where we. I wanted to know, Intersect. Yeah.
- [55:13]
A
How does a tiger parent endorse on the COVID of your book for free range parenting? I love Lenore. And you guys actually have something in common. What is that?
- [55:23]
B
We think that kids are way more capable than our culture gives them credit for. She thinks that they're ready to go to Carnegie Hall. She was right. Her kid ended up at Carnegie Hall. I think they're ready to take the subway. I'm right. My kid was ready to take the subway. And then we go different ways. I mean, she really wanted to cultivate certain skills in her children. And I feel more like there's a phrase of another book that I think you'd love the title of it is called the Gardener and the Carpenter.
- [55:49]
A
Ooh, tell me about it.
- [55:50]
B
So it's a woman named Allison Gopnik. She's a professor at Berkeley of, like, neuroscience. And her two sort of ideas for what parents can be is there's a carpenter. And how is a carpenter different from a gardener? A carpenter. You say, I need a chair, and they get some wood and they make a chair. But if you need a chair, and I only have steel, okay, I'll make it out of steel. If I only have, you know, these, you know, scarves, I'll make it out of scarves. You need a chair. I'll make whatever you give me into a chair. I am a carpenter, right? I will make. And then there's the gardener who's like, oh, I wonder what's growing. I think I'll water these plants. Oh, look, here's a daisy. Oh, here's a dandelion. Oh, here's a thorny rose bush. And here's a beautiful dahlia. And so a gardener understands that their job is to water and cultivate and take out some weeds, but they don't know what's going to come up. And they sort of love whatever happens, and they try to give it as much tender care as possible, or at least enough water, let's put it that way. Not so much tender care. I tend to be the gardener, which is that. And God willing, you have a bunch of kids and you'll see they're all different. And you'll realize, like, who could be a carpenter? I can't make this one into a pianist and this one into a linguist and this one into a doctor. But some parents work really hard and they do. Yeah.
- [57:03]
A
What are some baby steps that moms and dads can take today to ease into free range parenting?
- [57:10]
B
Finally, I have written like, a 30 days to a let grow free range kid. And the first thing I say is one yes instead of a no. Mom, can I climb up and get the cookies out of that tall cabinet? Mom, can I make you coffee? Yes. Can I do something today? Can I go outside and play in the front yard? And instead of automatically, no, why not? Okay, yes. And then I say, do it again the next day and you'll see how much easier it is. Then look back and realize, oh, my God, that was so much more fun. But I'd really say do it with someone. It's so much more fun and easy for you, and it's more fun for the kid. They don't have to be the exact same age. Right. But send both kids out to play. Send both kids to the park across the street, and then you'll feel better. And the thing is that at the beginning, you want to jump in. You can't stand the anxiety. The way anxiety works is that you think you can't handle something, and then you think you're gonna screw up up or something terrible will happen. And then if it does, you'll never be able to survive it. Right? Right. So while the anxiety is cresting, you want to jump in and stop it. It's so. It's just a horrible feeling. But if you can get to the other side, if you can just hold on, and especially if you're drinking coffee with a friend and suddenly you realize, like, oh, you're talking about another friend and it's all really interesting and you've forgotten that your kids are outside for a little bit. Then you've realized that, like, oh, it's not that bad. But if you stop in the middle and you run outside, wait, are you okay? You know, wait, you're not wearing a sweater, you know, Then you never get to realize, this is not so hard. Which is why the let grow experience, where everybody has to let their kids do something on their own and then they see the kid come home is so great because everybody's getting that experience of like, wow, the time went really fast. Oh, for me, it went really slow. My kid got lost, but then he was fine. You know, when something goes wrong, it's actually better because then you all realize, like, it doesn't have to be perfect. It can be, you know, he could fall, the bike chain could fall off, and it's still gonna be okay. So try to let go with a friend and have your kids say, you're at Starbucks. And you send your kids to the other end of the strip mall, to the dollar store to get a present for Father's Day. Right? Send them with $10. Actually, one friend, once again, somebody else's idea, has the idea of send your kid into a store with a $5 bill and have them ask to get change. Then they have to deal with an adult and they're doing something. But I think send them in and get something.
- [59:40]
A
Okay, I like that. I like that idea.
- [59:42]
B
Wait, did you see the viral video of the mom who sent her kid into Chick Fil a?
- [59:46]
A
I did. And that was all those parent people saying, this is outrageous. I would call CPS if I saw a kid in here doing this. It was like crazy criticism. When this mom posts the kid going into Chick Fil a and coming out, that boy was so proud. And like, I did it. That was awesome. Let's do it again. And it was just such a clear, like, yay moment. But yet there were so many people saying, no way, not my family. We would never. And I, I don't know, it's just sad to me. And I don't know how to convince those people otherwise. I don't know how to ease their fears.
- [60:25]
B
Right. Like I said, the only thing I've seen that eases anyone's fear is reality. And that requires not watching somebody else do this. And judging from afar, trying it. You know, if you have to send your two kids in together to get that milkshake and you and your husband are waiting in the, you know, the SUV outside, you will feel so proud. And you'll see your kids feel so proud. I mean, the thing about you being the nine year old babysitting, I realize that's young for most people, but the feeling is I did it myself. And we all remember that fantastic feeling. I did it myself. I climbed the tree. I made the cookies. I did something that I was trusted to do or. I once interviewed this mom. She said that the reason she was a teacher is when she was 7, she was home with her family and their dog ran away somehow. And both the mom and dad went out to look for the dog and she was home with the baby. And the parents were taken forever. And so finally she, like, fed the baby the rest of his meal. And then the parents were still gone. And so then she took the baby out, she changed his diaper, and she was taking care of him. And that feeling of being responsible, being a loving human being, being a competent human being and trusted by her parents was so transformative that she became a teacher.
- [61:44]
A
Wow.
- [61:45]
B
So there's something about doing something yourself, trusted by your parents.
- [61:49]
A
Beautiful.
- [61:49]
B
It is beautiful. I mean, because we're raising kids to become these trusted, beautiful, competent, confident, world loving children.
- [61:58]
A
If you could offer one remedy to heal a sick culture, and that could be physically, emotionally, or spiritually, what would it be?
- [62:05]
B
I would say let go and let God, and I don't go to aa. But the idea is that it's not all up to us and we can't control everything. It's an illusion that is making us suspicious and sad and cramped and worried and not reveling in the fantastic fact that we're on Earth now and that this is a beautiful place to be. And so I'd say do something that requires you to trust somebody other than yourself.
- [62:36]
A
Yeah.
- [62:36]
B
And report back.
- [62:38]
A
For parents who are interested in resources to turn their families into independent play havens, their communities, their schools, where can they go?
- [62:47]
B
Go to letgrow.org and it's not let it go. It's not let it grow. It's not let them grow. It's just let grow. It's the worst name possible. Everybody gets it wrong, but it's l e t G-R-O-W.org and we have everything's free. Free resources for parents, for schools, state laws, state laws. We have a little card your kids can carry that says, I'm not lost or neglected. You can call my parents if you're worried about me. Cute. There's just a lot of cute stuff there. There's crime statistics that I glean from the FBI, not from the, you know, the darkness of my mind. You know, I'm behind all these parents and I wish them everything good.
- [63:27]
A
Yeah, I know you do. I know you do. And you've done such a great job of everything that you've built and encouraged families. And I just love it so much and love you so much. What is the name of your book again?
- [63:38]
B
Free Range Kids.
- [63:39]
A
Free Range Kids. One of my favorites. It's so funny. You guys are gonna love it. And are you on social media at all?
- [63:44]
B
I'm on Twitter. I'm like, I can't figure out Instagram. Forgive me. I'm like an idiot. I can't figure out the difference between reels and whatever else is there but Twitter, I'm letgroworg and Free range Kids on Facebook. Facebook, we have a really nice group called Raising Independent Kids. You'd think we would keep one.
- [64:03]
A
Oh yeah, I'm in that group.
- [64:04]
B
Are you? Yes. Oh, that's great.
- [64:06]
A
Because I think it's encouraging reading, like, you know, because everybody thinks I'm in a bubble and that since I don't have kids, I couldn't possibly know like what I want to do and I'm going to change my mind and all these things. And I mean, I'm in your group and I'm reading every day. All of the positive, encouraging, look what my kid did, look what my kid did, look what we did. And it's great.
- [64:22]
B
And the kind of, it's like a, you know, is it okay if I send my 7 year old, you know, down the block to her friend's house? And the people say at first it's hard, but you could walk with her. And then the next time you walk halfway. So it's a lot of encouragement. And then there's people saying, I want my kid to go outside and he won't get off the couch. And so it's really people who want their, who want to be brave and who want their kids to be engaged. Yes. That's like it.
- [64:44]
A
And what's the group called again?
- [64:46]
B
It's called Raising Independent Kids.
- [64:48]
A
Perfect.
- [64:49]
B
Yeah.
- [64:49]
A
Lenore, it was an honor.
- [64:50]
B
No, same.
- [64:51]
A
Thank you for coming on Culture Apothecary. It's been seriously years in the making. I mean, I read your book a couple years ago and loved it and was like, we have to get her on eventually. Like the stars will align. I'll be in New York. Let's do it. So thank you so much.
- [65:03]
B
Thank you. And thank you for babysitting at age 9. And thank you for thinking that a 5 year old could go in and buy a kind bar.
- [65:13]
A
I've got like a top three top five favorite parenting book list and Lenore's book has consistently been one of my favorites. It is so unbelievably funny. And I can, I think that really helps because this topic can be pretty sensitive. It can be pretty controversial for parents. And if you are on the fence about, I don't know if I should read this book. I don't want to feel like I'm being attacked. You should because it is so unbelievably good humored and practical and she really breaks it down. Even if you don't want to go full free range parent she gives you some baby steps to make little changes to at least kind of give some independence that you're comfortable with with when it comes to your own kids and your family. Subscribe to Culture Apothecary anywhere you get your podcast. We have new episodes coming out every Monday and Thursday night at 9pm Eastern, 6pm Pacific. I've got new expert guests every single episode and they are bringing their own unique remedy to heal a sick culture. Please leave a five star review. Follow us on Instagram at Culture Apothecary or me at Real Alex Clark this is Culture Apothecary.