← Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark
Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark
The Co-Sleeping Controversy: What Parents Are Getting Totally Wrong | @cosleepy
00:55:54
Loading summary
Transcript166 lines
- [00:00]
A
Cry it out doesn't really train your baby to sleep. It kind of trains them just to be quiet and silent.
- [00:05]
B
One of the most cited benefits of co sleeping is breastfeeding success. What did the studies show?
- [00:10]
A
More breastfeeding sessions throughout the night and some are half asleep. They don't even have to fully wake up and many times the mom sleeps right through them. They found that the moms who breastfeed in bed share throughout the night BreastFeed for like two to three years. Breastfeeding parents are like the parents who should be bed sharing.
- [00:49]
B
Today's guest strongly believes that letting your baby cry it out isn't good parenting and sleeping together is actually better for both of you. That idea alone has sparked outrage, headlines and a whole lot of side eye from the parenting establishment, but it's also what millions of exhausted parents are opting to do. Tiffany Belanger is the founder of Co Sleepy, the leading education platform for safe co sleeping. She believes babies are biologically wired to be close. Cry it out isn't the gold standard we've been sold and co sleeping, when done intentionally and safely, can have real benefits for families. Tiffany changed the trajectory of her career after becoming a mother and finding nothing but fear based messaging and horror stories when she desperately searched for help on getting her kids to sleep. Her work has been featured in Glamour, the Telegraph and the Cut and she's now writing a forthcoming book. Whether you agree with her or not, this conversation will challenge what you think you know about infant sleep and why parents deserve better information than let them cry. Watch this episode on the real Alex Clark YouTube channel or culture Apothecary on Spotify. We're healing a sick culture twice a week, Mondays and Thursdays. Please pause. Help us start off the new year right with a five star review for covering this topic. Please welcome author and founder of Co Sleepy, Tiffany Bellinger to Culture Apothecary. Co sleeping is one of the most polarizing topics in modern parenting. Some say it saves mom's mental health. Others say it undermines safety and structure and authority. Today I really want to explore both. You're pro co sleeping, but are you anti sleep training or only anti cried out?
- [02:25]
A
See, that's the thing with sleep training. It's like a spectrum. There's some people with the extinction method of cry it out, which is pretty extreme in my opinion. And then you have other people who try to do sleep training when they're co sleeping. Literally their baby is next to them in bed and that doesn't really work very well. So it's like there's not one standard way to sleep train. And that's why it's so confusing for new parents. Like on TV shows, from your pediatrician, the lady at the park, like, everybody just mentions it. Oh, are you sleep training the babies? And you know, it's like very common to talk about when you're a new parent. And nobody talks about co sleeping, but a lot of parents co sleep because whether or not they've tried sleep training, the babies want to be with their mom and they don't want to sleep separately. And so unless you're willing to let them cry it out or do whatever program you found or, you know, follow that type of advice, the best thing seems to be most often bring them into your bed. I'm not pro sleeping in the way of like, everybody on this planet is supposed to co sleep. Like, I know it doesn't work for all families. There's definitely some things like if you're a smoker, if you're not sober, stuff like that, you definitely should not co sleep. So this doesn't apply to everyone. But my work is mostly about helping those parents who have absolutely no idea what to do and they've brought their baby into their bed and they're not getting this information from the AAP or from the pediatricians. I just want to give them the tools to do it safely. It's all about safety. I call myself the co sleeping safety captain. Like, I don't give parents a free pass to just do it. You have to do it intentionally. But if you do, we have lots of research that shows it can be done in a safe way that's beneficial for the baby and the mom.
- [04:01]
B
Till what age do you think it's good for parents to be co sleeping?
- [04:05]
A
Definitely the first year because that's the year when the babies, like when babies are born, their brain is only 25% of what it is when they're an adult. So there's rapid and prolonged brain growth during that first year and it goes through the first three. So a lot of parents try to make it to three years because we do have research that shows that nurturing your baby helps their brain and like it helps affect their mental health for the rest of their life.
- [04:27]
B
And are you a fan of these parents that are having like their 6, 7, 8 year olds? Everybody's in bed together as a family every night.
- [04:33]
A
No. And that's the thing. Every family is different. So you could just co sleep for the first year if you wanted. It doesn't even have to be the first year, like co sleeping is just a tool to help make your nights easier. So use it when you want to or need to and then put it away. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. So. So, yeah, so you could do it for the first year until 18 months. Or maybe you get pregnant and you have another baby when your first baby's two and that's the right time to transition them. It doesn't have to be forever or till age 8 or whatever like that. There's so many rumors and myths, like people thinking your baby will never leave your bed, like until they go to college or something. It's just not, it's not like that. It's not realistic.
- [05:10]
B
If you could explain what co sleeping is in under 15 seconds, what would you say?
- [05:14]
A
So co sleeping is just setting up a safe space for you and your child to sleep side by side.
- [05:20]
B
Easy.
- [05:20]
A
It's not rocket science. It's very simple. And most of the world co sleeps. And we've co slept throughout all of human history. It's only within the last 150 years or so here in the west and other countries who followed America's lead have like, been all about independence and children, like self soothing. Like, that wasn't a thing like in our past and it's not a thing in other countries. A lot of people here are starting to look at what they're doing in other countries. Like when people have babies in hospitals there and they hand out a big packet of information for when you bring your baby home. Most of the time they have a sheet in there that says, like, if you find yourself co sleeping because you want to or you find like that you have to. Here's how to make it as safe as possible.
- [06:01]
B
Oh, neat.
- [06:02]
A
Yeah, but we don't do that here.
- [06:03]
B
What would be three things that would instantly make a co sleeping situation unsafe?
- [06:07]
A
Okay, for one, never co sleep on a couch or sofa or in a rocking chair or recliner. A lot of people, there's just this stigma about bed sharing. Co sleeping and bed sharing, I kind of use those terms interchangeably. But bed sharing is when your baby's literally in your bed. There's the stigma that it's like the worst possible thing in the world to do. And so they say it's much safer if I just set up shop on the couch in front of the TV and let my baby sleep on my chest and I'll stay awake. But we're human and we fall asleep, especially within the first few weeks and months when we're really extremely Sleep deprived. It's not possible to stay awake on the couch. It's just not humanly possible. And so that's when a lot of the accidents happen and fatalities is when babies fall out of their parents arms or their parents sort of leans down in slumps. You're not set up safely. Like imagine me with a baby here. This is not a safe place. It's much safer to bring them into my bed that I've cleared off. There's no pillows or blankets. It's firm. Not quite as firm as a crib mattress, but relatively firm. You know, it's not plush like a sofa. And lay them down right beside me and I lie on my side facing them. But parents aren't even willing to try that many times because they're scared. They think they're going to get in trouble or the pediatrician's going to yell at them. So they do it on the couch. And that's when the accidents happen. So that's the first thing. And by the way, all the hormones that are released when you're breastfeeding make you drowsy. Like we're designed to feel drowsy when we're breastfeeding. So why does it make sense? Or how would that have been the point if we were supposed to sit up in a chair like this and nurse our baby and not fall asleep all throughout the night? Like it makes more sense that we would be lying next to them and it would be very convenient and easy. As I mentioned earlier, if you smoke, that's highly associated with sids. Or if you're not sober, even just like prescription medication, you want to be able to respond to your baby when they need you, if they're right beside you. So if you're out too heavy because of medication or you're not sober from alcohol or whatever it is, that is not safe at all. A firm mattress, a firm surface. Because your baby, especially in the beginning, they have those giant heads and weak necks and they can't control their muscles. And so if they into a bad position on a, like a really squishy plush mattress to where they can't breathe, it's really hard for them to move their head. And that's the reason why crib mattresses are so firm. It helps babies move much easier.
- [08:19]
B
I didn't even know that. I just thought, you know, it's a baby, they don't care. So let's give them something cheap.
- [08:23]
A
No, they're like rigorously tested. They have to be really firm.
- [08:28]
B
Okay, so let's say because I'm somebody that has a squishy. I even put a feather bed like down thing on top of my squishy mattress. So it's like a cloud. So then this is new. So then if I had a baby at home, maybe co sleeping in my bed wouldn't be ideal. Yeah. So then in those types of situations, would you say putting like a bassinet type of thing right next to my bed or something?
- [08:50]
A
So that's also considered co sleeping.
- [08:51]
B
Oh great.
- [08:52]
A
So pretend co sleeping's like the umbrella term. And underneath you have bed sharing where you bring your baby into your bed. And then there's also like room sharing or bedside sleeping. And that's when they're pulled up to you right there, close enough for you to reach over and comfort them if they need you. And they can still smell your milk and hear you. And like all those sensory inputs are really important in the beginning. They're protective against sids.
- [09:13]
B
My mind is already being opened towards this idea. I am not sold on anything. I and I don't have kids yet. So I'm like listening to these conversations and debates online with moms, like, okay, I see this point, I see this point. So I'm really just here to learn. One of the loudest critiques of co sleeping is that it teaches children early on that their preferences override the needs of the household. Is that a misunderstanding of co sleeping, you think?
- [09:38]
A
I don't know how a six month old baby would realize that or come to believe that.
- [09:43]
B
What if they're like a toddler older?
- [09:45]
A
A toddler? I don't know. It's just in a lot of the families I work with, it's co sleeping makes things a lot smoother. Everybody gets more sleep, including the dad. And that often makes the atmosphere in the house happier. People are more happy when they get sleep. So of course it depends on the individual relationship. You just need to talk to your partner and if you, it works out to where you have a baby or toddler in your bed for even just part of the night, like they, you could start them out in their own space and then when they wake up around midnight or whatever it is, they come in but you allow them to stay with you. What if you're getting way more sleep than if you had to get up with them, walk them back to their bed, try to sneak away, they're fighting or crying, you know, they don't want you to leave. Like that wastes a lot of time and energy. And by the time you get back to bed, it might Take you a little bit to wind down and fall back asleep. It is so much easier just to be like, here you go. Come on in. And so I don't think that that damages marriages. In my experience working with families, it's like the marriages that were already kind of rocky or they didn't have great communication skills. Of course, when you add a new baby, especially a baby who's in your bed, it rocks things. And often bed sharing is blamed for marital problems, but it's like they already had. There were signs already that things weren't good.
- [10:55]
B
Why do you think co sleeping provokes so much fear and judgment compared to other parenting decisions?
- [11:01]
A
I don't know. I don't know. I. I just sort of fell into this. I never planned on doing it. And I was googling in the middle of the night trying to figure out how to safely sleep with my baby in his bed, in my bed, because he wouldn't sleep in his bassinet. And that was the first time I saw all the. The Reddit pages and the scary things people were saying in the horror stories in the news. And by the way, those stories don't often go into detail. They don't often say, like, the parent was intoxicated when this happened. They just say, like, another baby died because of bed sharing.
- [11:32]
B
Right.
- [11:32]
A
But when you really dig in, there's usually a reason. It was, like, reactive bed sharing, not intentional.
- [11:37]
B
Yeah, it's kind of like when they say, like, there's. There was 250 school shootings this year. And then you, like, dive into the data. It's like, well, this kid committed suicide on campus. This kid. You know, it was just like one kid to one kid gang violence situation. Like, you. When you dive into the data, there's. There's more context.
- [11:51]
A
Yeah. And that's why I started this work. I didn't mind diving in, but the average parent doesn't have the time or energy to do that, and we shouldn't be expected to do that. So I don't know why it makes people so mad. And honestly, it's none of anybody's business other than you and your husband or your partner, your decision of what to do with your baby. Like, honestly, your pediatrician, like, that's great, but sleeping isn't a medical issue. And pediatricians didn't used to always, like, talk about baby sleep. It's kind of been a recent thing since the 80s and 90s when we had the sids epidemic. But before that, that was sort of like an issue that the parents decided on or what was common knowledge or that, you know, what the culture did? Doctors got involved in the 80s and 90s and the AAP got involved in 1992. Before that they never commented on where a baby should sleep. So now it's been made into this medical issue. And so parents just blindly trust whatever their child's doctor tells them to do. And there's many pediatricians who I lovely and suggest co sleeping or they'll just support a parent wherever they're at and just say here's how to do it safely. But often they don't have time or they're just going, what's easier? If you see if you're sitting here and there's a mom holding a baby and she looks exhausted and she's saying, I can't cope, I don't think I can do this anymore. It's easier, it's much easier just to say, put him in his crib. He's six months, he can go without feeding for most of the night. So just put him in his crib and if he cries, just go take a walk around the block like they're trying to help. But that's actually not helpful in most cases.
- [13:22]
B
You keep meaning to start taking your health seriously. Every year you tell yourself, this is the year that I will figure out what my body actually needs. I've been listening to Alex Clark now for I don't know how long. And then you do nothing. Yep, I'm looking at you. Why? Because you've never had a comprehensive blood panel or hormone test. So I don't blame you. You don't even know where to begin. And this is why I'm telling you, you've got to use jevity. Are you low on vit? Is your metabolism slowing down? You don't know. You don't know. Is your estrogen low? Is your testosterone too high? This is where Jevy comes in. They make health optimization simple and personalized and you do it all at home. A phlebotomist is going to come to your door. You are going to get a virtual consultation. After that, they're going to go over your results and explain all of it to you. And Jevoty will create a fully customized plan just for you. Supplements, nutrition guidance and recommendations for any additional testing that you might need. Your personalized treatments, hormone therapies, peptides, anti aging therapeutics are delivered directly to you. You can get additional testing. Okay, you want MTHFR testing. You want to see if you have that gene. Important. You want to get your gut health tested. Important. You Want to do the Dutch test? Full hormone panel. Jeopardy. Can do that. Jevity goes deeper than your typical doctor's office. You get over 100 biomarkers analyzed twice a year compared to the industry standard of 25 to 50, giving you real insight into what's actually happening inside your body. Your longevity blend supplements and health protocols are crafted specifically you ensuring maximum effectiveness. Plus, the Jevy app gives you on demand access to your care team, all historical health data and your personalized health plan. So support is always just a tap away. All of this is available in their three memberships you can choose from, including 40% off supplements and premium prescriptions. Use code Alex goy.com to get 20% off. That's code Alex goy.com you remember the Princess and the Pe? Tiny PE under 40 mattresses and she's like, something's wrong. I can feel it. That's me. Except instead of a pee, it's a seed oil tortilla chip. Anywhere in my vicinity, I take one bite, my body goes, we're under attack. Inflammation, bloat, spiritual fatigue. The demons are coming. Suddenly I'm googling. Why am I tired at 2pm like a little sickly Victorian child. Just call me Joe Alwyn. Here's the scam. Chips and fries used to be cooked in beef tallow. That's how humans survived. And then in the 1990s, Corporation said, Whoa, what if we just poisoned everybody? But cheaper. Boom. Seed oils. Now they're 20% of the average American's calories and everyone feels insane. Masa said, no more. They make tortilla chips with three ingredients. Organic, niximalized corn, sea salt, and 100% grass fed beef tallow. That's it. No seed oils, no lab sludge, no regret. And here's the crazy part. They're actually better. Crunchier, sturdier. You dip them in guac and they don't disintegrate like wet paper towels. You eat them, you feel satisfied, Light, energized, not bloated, not sluggish, not spiraling. The tallow makes them more satiating, so you don't black out and eat the entire bag while still feeling empty inside. My favorite flavor, churro. It's elite cinnamon sugar perfection. I can't express how good they are. They're so addicting you can eat them by themselves or with vanilla ice cream. They're like velvet cinnamon sugar chips that melt in your mouth. Best texture ever. Like, I don't know if you remember the Taco Bell churros that everybody used to get those were disgusting. I, I hated the texture of those. These are just out of this world. And I really like you're going to try it. You'll be like, whoa. They literally do taste like you're eating velvet. Just trust me, okay? If you want to give Masa a try, go to masa chips.com use code real Alex Clark for 25% off your first order. That's masachips.com code real Alex Clark for 25% OFF your first order. But if you don't want to order online, that's fine. You can now buy Masa chips and Vandy chips at Sprouts nationwide. Your story was it was the middle of the night. Your baby is in a bassinet next to you but not sleeping. You're struggling, baby is struggling. You, what were you feeling? What did you feel like? Wasn't working.
- [17:14]
A
It's just anytime I put him down in the bassinet, he would start crying, he would wake up, he would like jolt. Like he could feel it. And I looked online and they said like there's different techniques. Put him down sort of on his side and roll him back or leave your hand on him for a while. Like if you Google, Google this or look on Instagram, there's tons of techniques you can try. But no, he wanted to be with me and anytime I picked him up, he would just melt. He would just stop crying. He'd have that little like milk drunk look on his face. Fall asleep instantly.
- [17:43]
B
And so when parents say to you, well see you're trick, you're teaching that baby that they can't be away from you and that's not a good thing, I mean, what do you say?
- [17:51]
A
I mean we're not going off to college. Like they're just, they're less than a year old. Like toddlers. As I said earlier, you can start to transition them out or set boundaries. That's totally fine of course. But like for the baby who is rap, their brain is rapidly growing and they are born expecting to be close to their parents because they are just so vulnerable. Newborn babies, like I said, they can't control their muscles, they can't see very far, they can't like cling on to you. They're at your mercy. You need to pick them up and take them places and feed them. They are just incredibly vulnerable. It's like in their DNA. They expect to just be held and sleep near you and eat on and off anytime they wake up. You know what I mean? It's only in these last, as I mentioned earlier, like about 150 years when things kind of shifted in certain countries, not everywhere, but before that, for the entire human history. That's how it is. Like, the baby's usually with the mom or another caregiver, but they're in arms and they're never separated.
- [18:49]
B
What happened to change that?
- [18:50]
A
There were lots of things. Like a big one was the Industrial revolution. And like around that time, America was all about ambition and independence and power and authority. And that just trickled down into families. And women were like, encouraged to work at the factories and the mills. And so they found that formula was invented around that time and they found that, like, maybe they could get more consolidated sleep and not wake up every three hours or so if they gave the baby formula or if they had their husband feed the baby. So, yeah, women going back to work, formula, just the general vibe shift in America of just like independence. And they put that on little tiny babies. Yeah. Who had never experienced that before. And we're not expecting it and they're not capable. Like, the self soothing thing really gets me. Why me? When I'm having a bad day, ideally I would sit on my couch, I'd put a weighted blanket on me that I love. Maybe I'd have a glass of wine. My husband would be there giving me a hug. He'd talk to me if I wanted him to. But if I was like, please don't talk to me, he wouldn't. Like, he's just there to be there to help as moral support. Like, that's me soothing myself. Many nights like, how is a newborn baby going to have any tools at all to soothe themselves? Like, I'm a grown woman and I had to find throughout my life I had to figure out what kind of calms me down.
- [20:08]
B
At what point did you realize, okay, I'm not the only mom dealing with this, where no matter what technique I do, the way I'm placing my baby in his crib, in his bassinet, he's not sleeping. He only wants to be with me. When did you see that other parents were struggling?
- [20:22]
A
I started asking my friends and sometimes, like, I got left on red a few times, people didn't want to talk about it.
- [20:28]
B
Why?
- [20:29]
A
I don't know. They're like, embarrassed. They think, like, there's this idea of a good baby. You know, they sleep 12 hours a night, they're not fussy, they're cheerful during the day. Like, have you ever heard people ask, oh, is he a good baby?
- [20:41]
B
Yeah, is he? Is he sleeping? And so when you're a New mom and your mom friends are like, is he sleeping through the night yet? And if your baby isn't, you feel shame. Like you're not a good mom.
- [20:50]
A
Totally. Yeah. And you don't know where to find help. I only found out I was having trouble breastfeeding. Also, breastfeeding is hard, and I didn't know that before I was a mom. Like, it was physically hard. He wasn't latching. I made an appointment with a lactation consultant, and she was the one who just happened to ask. As she was helping me with latching, she was like, oh, how's sleep going? And I told her the only place he will sleep is in my bed with me. And she said, oh, well, people do that all over the world. And she gave me a name. She said, Google this man, Dr. James McKenna. He has a book. All his research is on this, and he has a book on it. And so that was my first step. I bought that book that night. I tried to read it, but, you know, it's hard. It's like a lot about research, and it's a chapter book. And so that's why a lot of my work that I've made since then is really just cherry pickable. Because I know that moms are looking this up in the middle of the night. They just need the basics. How do I do this safely? What do I need to move off my bed? Do I need to put my mattress on the floor? Cause I don't want them to roll off. Or maybe you can install bed rail. You gotta prevent them from falling off the bed once they're about four months and they become mobile. There's all these things. And so I was starting to learn about it. I asked my friends. Some left me on read, some didn't want to talk about it. I had some family members who I asked, and they just said, that's our thing. You do your thing. I don't even want to talk about it. Whoa. I know. It gets touchy.
- [22:08]
B
It's like freaking fight club. It gets really weird.
- [22:11]
A
And I was not expecting that. It's like, you know how they talk about the idea of, like, a village? Like, that's something we're missing. We don't really have support when we become moms. It's very isolating. And I did experience that some of my closest friends, like, I was just like, they never told me about this.
- [22:27]
B
So then what happened? You just started reading this guy's book?
- [22:30]
A
I just got obsessed with it. And it's really weird because I worked in Hollywood before This I never was even interested in parenting. I wasn't like you. I didn't do research beforehand, but I just feel like it's sort of like a calling. Like I feel like I have to get this info out there because I spent so many hours in those early weeks on Google reading the books and I missed time with my newborn, with my little baby because I was busy doing that or I was incredibly stressed out and feeling guilty. And I don't want other moms to go through that.
- [22:58]
B
From a biological perspective, what does proximity during sleep actually do for an infant's nervous system?
- [23:04]
A
It's really amazing and we have a lot of research on this. So just being close, having physical proximity increases oxytocin in both the mom and the baby. And that's the feel good. They call it the love hormone. All. Also studies have shown that the closer your baby is to you, the more oxytocin they're getting and the less cortisol it's, it's going down and it doesn't last nearly as, as long. So it's sort of like the mom's body is like, provides a buffer sort of and like affects her baby just by being close. Even this would be better than if your baby was across the room. The closer they are, the more oxytocin they're getting.
- [23:36]
B
You mentioned cortisol. What do we know about cortisol and stress responses or arousal thresholds in co sleeping infants versus solitary sleepers?
- [23:43]
A
We do have research on this. But just imagine a baby waking up and they're swaddled move and they're in a dark room and they have, there's no humans nearby and it's quiet. That's very, that's a stress response right there. And there's tons of stress hormones that flood their body and they start crying and get all wound up and it takes a while, hopefully their parent comes to get them but it takes a while for them to calm down and then think about a baby who's sleeping in their parents bed. And sometimes they don't even. We have video studies that show that sometimes the babies and the moms don't even wake up. They're stirring in their sleep and the baby sort of turns over and latches onto his mom and nurses. So either they're half asleep, which is really seems really peaceful to me, or they wake up but there's no crying involved. Their mom is right there and it just, it's a second for her to latch him on. So it's just, they're, they're not experiencing that. Those stress hormones when they're co sleeping.
- [24:32]
B
What does better sleep truly mean in infancy? Like, is it longer stretches, is it fewer full wakings, or is it just easier resettling?
- [24:41]
A
Definitely easier resettling. But like everybody has a different opinion. Like the random lady at the park. Park might say, no, good sleep is 12 hours. You put them in their crib at 7 o' clock and you don't go in there until 7am Just solid good sleep. And you don't have to feed them. Other people are like, no, that goes against their biological needs. Babies need to feed every two to three hours throughout the first year, day and night.
- [25:03]
B
What do you think about the babies that sleep through the night and aren't eating?
- [25:06]
A
I really feel for them and this is no judgment for the parents because all this anger that I'm directing when we're talking about sleep training, it's at the AAP and pediatricians and it goes down to like the sleep trainers you find on Instagram, they have their little businesses. It's just, that's, it's what I just said. It's going against baby's biological needs. So breast milk is high in sugar, which provides a lot of energy for them, but it's low in fat, so it doesn't really satiate them for long, meaning they have to wake up and feed every two to three hours. That's just how we are, humans are, that's how our breast milk is. And so therefore, that's why throughout human history they've slept next to mom, so that it's very easy throughout the night just to, like I said, latch them on.
- [25:49]
B
What do you think the most popular sleep training accounts on Instagram are getting wrong?
- [25:54]
A
First of all, I don't ever look at them, but I've seen some that say within three days they can help you make like get your baby to sleep through the night in three days. Like some sort of process that doesn't make sense to me. At the core of it, it's they're trying to just fit their baby into this society, this culture we have fit their baby into the life they had before. Like, I knew when I had my baby I can't continue to work in Hollywood. I thought that I wanted to and I planned on it before I had him, but as soon as he was born, it was just like, I can't fit him into my previous life. My previous life is over. I'm a different person. This is a completely different life. My husband and I have a different relationship and that's not bad. It's just a part of life. But some people just, they. They're so resistant to that.
- [26:37]
B
Yeah. They don't want to have to adjust.
- [26:39]
A
Exactly. And so it's true. If you want to have a baby, you have to be okay with your life changing completely. And also the first few years, know that your baby is going to be very needy. They really, really need you day and night, and so make sure that you can. You're ready for that challenge.
- [26:57]
B
One of the most cited benefits of co sleeping is breastfeeding success. What did the studies show?
- [27:02]
A
More breastfeeding sessions throughout the night. And some are half asleep. They don't even have to fully wake up. And many times the mom sleeps right through them. And we can talk about the positioning, but the mom is sleeping on her side, and so the baby is sleeping on his back with their head right here homed in, sort of like on her breast. And they can just easily turn over and latch on and off and fall asleep that way.
- [27:24]
B
Baby, I'm guessing, always needs to be on the side of you that's gonna be more inside, towards the bed.
- [27:29]
A
Well, it's actually. Dr. James McKenna found that it's safer for the baby to be just by the mom, not in between both parents.
- [27:36]
B
Oh, okay.
- [27:37]
A
Yeah. So that could be your. I know a lot of families who buy like a twin bed and the husband will sleep on that and the wife has, like the big bed to really stretch out. I mean, who.
- [27:47]
B
I'm not arguing with that.
- [27:48]
A
I know some, some dads are totally, like, I get more sleep in the guest room, it's okay. But again, like we were saying earlier, it just depends on that relationship, what they're comfortable with. But just this is a temporary season, so your marriage is not always going to be like this. Just remember that. So more breastfeeding sessions throughout the night. Longer, total. Like, they found that the moms who breastfeed in bed share throughout the night breastfeed for like two to three years. Whereas if you're getting up every time and walking over to the crib, that's tiring, that's rough. Or if you're going back to work and it's hard to pump and you start giving them formula, like, you don't like bed sharing is really, really helpful for the parents who breastfeed. So sometimes when parents aren't breastfeeding anymore, they're sort of like, ugh. And they don't. They'd rather just do crib. So, like, yes to what you said. Breastfeeding parents are like, the parents who should be bed sharing.
- [28:42]
B
I was cutting a steak the other night and I dropped the knife blade down right on top of my foot. It was exactly as bad as you're imagining. My little strawberry sock filled with blood like a Capri sun. I swear to God, this is what happened to me. Absolute crime scene in my. Oh, I was about to tell you something secret. Anyway, I'm standing there thinking, this is it. This is how it ends. Over a ribeye. Luckily, no stitches. I was scared there for a minute and I was trying to get mochi not to lick my blood.
- [29:09]
A
Ew.
- [29:10]
B
Okay, I'm really giving you wait too much. You know what I didn't do is I didn't reach for Neosporin because Neosporin is basically toxic soup that you would smear on wounds. And now we know better. Instead, I sprayed the hell out of it with Active skin repair. Active skin repair uses hypochlorous acid, which sounds spooky, but it's actually what your immune system already makes to heal cuts. So instead of poisoning the wound, it cleanses, soothes, reduces inflammation and supports healing without, you know, putting oil byproducts right in your bloodstream. It's non toxic. It's medical grade. You can use it on cuts, scrapes, burns, itches, rashes, eczema, acne, rosacea. All skin types, all ages, babies, grandparents, idiots who drop knives on themselves. Over half a million happy customers, thousands of five star reviews. And it's clean enough to be the one thing that you keep in your house for every skin emergency. No antibiotics, no sting, no regret. Go toactive skin repair.com. they have a gel and a spray. Use code Alex for 20% off. That's active skin repair.com code Alex. So my assistant is completely obsessed with Farmer wants a wife, right? She sends me clips of grown men sobbing over tractors. Like their entire self worth depends a haystack. And I'm sitting here thinking if these guys had cowboy colostrum in the morning, they might actually survive a day on the farm instead of crying into a pitchfork. Cowboy colostrum is first milking four to six hours post birth. Grass fed us dairy cows. This isn't skim milk impostor garbage. It's packed with immunoglobulins, natural growth hormones. Basically liquid superhero serum for your gut. Skin, hair immunity, athletic performance.
- [30:38]
A
Yep.
- [30:39]
B
Feeling invincible while watching reality TV sob fest. Absolutely. Cowboy only takes the surplus after the calves get their share. So you're sitting, sipping ethically, sustainably, and still feeling like a cowboy superhero. Whole colostrum fat casein fluffy and yellow. Not the skimmy white sludge the other brands try to pass off. Froth it in water, dump it in your coffee, your smoothie or milkshake. Instant upgrade. Vanilla tastes like childhood milkshake nostalgia. Take two to three scoops. If you want an immune boost, gut support, or just to feel slightly superior to every sobbing Bachelor on reality TV, use code ALEX for 25 off at cowboycolostrum.com that's cowboycolostrom.com code ALEX for 25 off. Is it co sleeping that supports breastfeeding or is it breastfeeding that naturally leads to co sleeping?
- [31:25]
A
I love this question. They're. They go hand in hand because babies are born expecting to be very close to their parents day and night. And because what I said about breast milk, how they need to have it every two to three hours to understand baby sleep, you need to understand lactation and breastfeeding.
- [31:40]
B
It's like what came first, the chicken or the egg.
- [31:43]
A
Exactly, Exactly. So that's why a lot of times parents who decide to formula feed and they're not really interested in breastfeeding or lactation, they don't quite understand. Just because our society has changed or the AAP's guidelines have changed, like that doesn't change all of human history and the biology like our DNA. Like, you can't change that in a baby.
- [32:03]
B
What is the single biggest myth about co sleeping that you would fix if you could rewrite the AAP guidelines?
- [32:09]
A
Well, first of all, they say bed sharing or co sleeping is never safe under any circumstance. And that's absolutely not true. I mean, look at other countries where co sleeping is the norm. Look at India. How many billions of people live in India where co sleeping is the norm. Like, they're doing okay, they're procreating, they're keeping their babies safe. Like I said, only in America and a few of the other countries who have sort of followed our lead, is it like a big deal here?
- [32:32]
B
Why does it seem like when it comes to pregnancy advice in America, everything is behind. We're behind on co sleeping guidelines, we're behind on nutritional guidelines for pregnancy, what we should or shouldn't eat. It's like we're not updating anything here.
- [32:45]
A
No. The last time the AAP weighed in on baby sleep about how babies need to sleep on their back, that was in 1996. That was 30 years ago. So. And they have. There's been tons of research by Dr. Helen Ball and Dr. James McKenna and other people. We have lots of hard evidence about the benefits of co sleeping and how it can be made safer. And they have not updated their recommendations at all. It's like a blanket statement.
- [33:10]
B
You brought this book?
- [33:11]
A
Oh, yeah. I brought this book to show you. I took it in my carry on all the way from California. Look how heavy it is. So this is the book I got when I had my baby. When I left the hospital, they handed this to me and they said, all of your questions will be answered. And I did leave feeling pretty confident, like I'm in good shape. Okay, Alex, look through the book. Look at the back index. Co sleeping or bed sharing, those terms are not mentioned one time. So out of 900 pages, they couldn't give us one page to say, we don't recommend this book.
- [33:40]
B
You got HIV and aids, though.
- [33:41]
A
You have everything.
- [33:42]
B
HIV and AIDS for your brand new baby, but you don't have co sleeping.
- [33:47]
A
Everything's in that book. How to cut their toenails. Like, why couldn't they give us one page out of 900 to say we don't recommend this? But if you find yourself in a situation where you have to do it, here's the 10 things you can do to make it safer.
- [34:01]
B
Do you think that we'll ever see a future where co sleeping gets added to that book?
- [34:04]
A
I don't know. Maybe. With your help.
- [34:06]
B
Seriously, I like the challenge.
- [34:08]
A
Okay, so the aap, there's tens of thousands of pediatricians in it, but the, the subcommittee who decided on safe sleep was only about 10 to 12 people back in the 90s. Seriously, it's 10 to 12 people have decided what? We hear what we're told from our pediatricians. Some people are scared to bed share. They're afraid that they're going to. Someone's going to call cps. You know what I mean? This has become such a huge thing because 10 to 12 people don't trust women to make an informed choice. That's my opinion. You know, in your third trimester, you can drink a glass of wine at that point. Have you heard that?
- [34:42]
B
Yes.
- [34:42]
A
Okay. But your doctor will never tell you that or recommend that because they just say it's better if we just put out a blanket statement. Say no alcohol ever during pregnancy because they don't trust the individual women to really think about it, Weigh the pros and cons and decide what's best for them. Same with this. They say your baby should never ever be in your bed because it can't be done safely.
- [35:03]
B
And you should never have raw fish.
- [35:04]
A
There's like soft cheeses. You're not supposed to eat. There's a lot of rules.
- [35:08]
B
Or sauna. In Finland, they're all doing sauna while they're.
- [35:11]
A
That's what I'm saying. Like why can't we look at other countries?
- [35:13]
B
Oh, and you know what else? This really starts when you're a teenager as a woman, because you're in high school and they just tell you know what, your period's too complicated, it's too hard to understand your cycle. Just get on birth control. So it's like, like from the moment we are starting to transition into womanhood, as, as females, we are told that we are too stupid to think for ourselves.
- [35:33]
A
Yeah.
- [35:33]
B
And gosh, that sounds feminist of me, but I mean I'm not wrong and I wouldn't consider myself a feminist. But I will say that there is something when it comes to empowering women from a medical perspective that we're just not given, we're just not given informed consent. We're not given agency autonomy to make our own choices. And like we, we know what's best for ourselves or for our children. One hesitation I have, and I gotta lay this out honestly, it's not about infants. I think that when it comes to co sleeping, I am sold on newborn stage. What I'm not sold on, and I'm bringing this up because all of my friends are doing it. Every single one of my best friends who have multiple kids are all co sleeping and their kids are like toddler and above, ok? They're all piling into bed together like this is like Goldilocks and three bears or something. So some families I know and this isn't my direct friends, so I just want to say that. But some families I know that are co sleeping later, it seems to me like they've got this inverted family structure. So their, their kids are dictating bedtime, they're dictating their food choices, their sleep arrangements. Parents are losing authority. And so interestingly, when I was looking this up to talk to you, some behavioral research I found suggests that when bed sharing continues beyond infancy, that's where there can be some associations with emotional dysregulation. So my question is for you. How do you distinguish healthy co sleeping from co sleeping? That erodes parental leadership.
- [37:05]
A
I think only each parent can decide each for their specific family. We have research on this, but there's no specific age that we know of. Like after age 4, it's really important to get them out of your bed. Like we don't know in other countries. I can tell you many of them Stop. They make that transition when they have another baby and that child goes to sleep in a room with either an older sibling or like usually a grandparent. Some people, they sleep with their siblings in the same bed or the same room. Like I'm thinking of India until college.
- [37:32]
B
Whoa, hold on a minute. I've never heard that.
- [37:35]
A
Yeah, not their parents, but like a sibling or a grandparent, not their parents.
- [37:40]
B
I was like, that is the craziest thing I've ever heard on this show.
- [37:43]
A
No, but think about it. Not everyone has big houses like we do with multiple bedrooms. That's true. So look, every family, your individual friends need to say, like, is my four year old running the show? And again, it's like we were saying earlier with marital problems, like, I don't think it's fair to blame everything on bed sharing. So if your kid is being the boss and you don't think that's right, like you need to look at all sorts of things. Yeah, including like eating, like everything.
- [38:08]
B
Look at the context.
- [38:09]
A
Exactly. It's not just where they sleep at night.
- [38:11]
B
I think that's fair. And I think the audience that are super gung ho about co sleeping, which I know most of you are, are going to appreciate you saying that. You talk often about co sleeping as this mental health intervention for mothers. What benefits do you see most consistently and where is the evidence strongest?
- [38:28]
A
Well, we do have a lot of evidence with the oxytocin like we were talking about earlier. Just close proximity increases it. And that's the feel good love hormone. A lot of moms are afraid of their baby not breathing. I don't know if your friends have mentioned that. Yes, because we hear about sids, which we don't really know that much about the typical mom, but we just know like, like some babies stop breathing. And so I know so many moms, including my own self, we would wake up and panic and go look and be like, okay, I can see they're breathing, they're okay. So when your baby's right next to you, you don't have as much of a panic. You can open your eyes and they're right here.
- [38:59]
B
That makes sense. Yeah.
- [39:00]
A
You don't have to walk across the room or buy one of those, like socks or like little devices to track you know what.
- [39:05]
B
And I don't like that. I'm going to tell you right now that's a lot of EMF exposure on your baby that I think is unnecessary. And then you've got the wi fi baby monitors and all that. I don't like any of it. I'm going to that right now. I'm anti baby monitor. At least the wi fi kinds.
- [39:20]
A
Yeah.
- [39:21]
B
So I don't know. There's a lot I could talk about there. But yeah, I don't like the little sock and with the cords and all that.
- [39:26]
A
Yeah. We never bought a baby monitor because we always co slept.
- [39:30]
B
That makes sense.
- [39:30]
A
And we got. Both of my little boys used to sleeping in their bassinet for the first stretch of the night when they got a little older like the newborn days. As I told you that it was not happening. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. So many families, they have their bedtime routine just like anybody else and they put their baby in the crib. Crib. But when the baby works, wakes up for the first feed around 11 or whatever, at that point they find it easier just to bring them, take them to bed with them because it's a whole routine. I don't know if your friends have told you to like rock them this way, shush them, turn off the lights, put on the sound noise like it's a whole thing. And that makes traveling really hard by the way. So if you have a lifestyle like you, you're probably going to want a baby who can sleep anywhere.
- [40:08]
B
Oh yeah, right. I need. Yeah, that's exactly A rock concert, whatever.
- [40:12]
A
Yeah. So. But these families who do sleep training or just have their very rigid routines, it's hard to go like they have to do like a 10 step process and that's just stressful. We don't need to add that to our lives.
- [40:24]
B
You know what I can't stand? I cannot stand the parents that are rigid about when the bedtime has to be. I mean they say it's 7:45 and so it's like if you're out to eat or you're at something and it, and it's 7:30 they're like we have to leave. The food hasn't come yet. We're leaving because the baby has to be in bed. I'm like why would you put yourselves in a prison like that? I do not understand it. Yeah. But I, I mean I'm sure there are going to be some parents that disagree. That drives me nuts. I definitely don't want to be in a situation like that when I have kids one day. Um, I do have questions about co sleeping when it comes to twins or multiples.
- [40:59]
A
Yeah. It just depends on the family. Some parents feel better with their kids in like next to the bed but in separate bassinets. Others have One big crib and they put both of them in there. Um, there's just different ways to do it. But research shows that the twins who are put together, like they have video studies where they're hugging each other throughout the night. Night. And it's just, I don't know. Humans, we crave closeness and physical touch. It calms us down, you know, whether we're a newborn or like we're our age. Like I said, when we need to calm ourselves down after a hard day. Yeah, like it's nice if you have a buddy or a partner or someone to just give you a hug.
- [41:37]
B
I cannot with these parents just letting their kids walk around with gray rotted baby teeth. Like that's cute. Or some quirky Instagram aesthetic. You think it's fine because they're baby teeth.
- [41:46]
A
Teeth.
- [41:46]
B
That's the sort of reasoning that gets you living in a trailer on a landfill, mainlining Mountain Dew and calling it sustainable baby teeth literally guide permanent teeth shape the jaw and impact long term health. But no, let's just let Timmy non goldfish crackers like he's auditioning for Honey I shrunk the dentist Zebra birthday cake Toothpaste. Okay, get that for them. Real fluoride free hydroxyapatite free toothpaste that tastes like a celebration in your mouth, not a chemistry experiment. Your kids will love it. It's made with xylitol to help prevent cavities, hydrated silica and calcium carbonate to clean and gently polish. Plus vanilla ext packed cocoa butter and coconut oil for that sweet, fun flavor that kids actually will want to brush their teeth with. It's harmless enough that kids learning to brush can even use a grain of rice amount without toxic junk. Zebra doesn't hide weird preservatives, fluoride or questionable ingredients, just clean tested stuff that actually works. So if you care about your kids health, your teeth, or your reputation as a functioning adult, go to yay zebra.com use code Alex for 10 off. That's yay zebra.com code Alex. Your kids teeth are going to lose, look sparkling and they're going to want to brush their teeth. One of my goals this year is to stop letting random sketchy health trends into my house. If a product requires a 12 part conspiracy thread and a guy named Chad explaining it on YouTube, I'm out. So instead I'm going back to basics. And that's why I really like Utsy Naturals. They're a family owned supplement company, not some shadowy lab in a warehouse. They literally have a 100 acre herb farm in Wisconsin where a lot of their sourcing starts. Real dirt dirt, real plants, real farmers and overalls who do not have tick tock dance accounts. Everything is made in the US packaged in glass bottles instead of plastic. And they're not stuffing the formulas with filler, caffeine, pixie dust or whatever ingredient is trending on wellness Instagram this week. It is simple. It's thoughtful, stewardship, focused health like your grandparents would approve of, but also your naturopath. If you're not sure where to start when it comes to supplements and what brands you can trust and what's clean and the packaging, etc, etc, start with foundations. Start with things that your body actually uses every day. A really good B complex for steady energy and stress support. A multivitamin that actually covers nutritional gaps instead of just making expensive pee. And their youmune formula. I keep that one with me when I travel because airports are basically germ buffets with boarding groups. No gimmicks, no biohacking your DNA while you sleep with a crystal mat. Just reliable supplements that do what they say. It's UTSY utzy.com with code Alex. That's utsi.com utzy.com with code Alex New year, not a new you, just a healthier, steadier version of the one that you already are. If sleep training helps mothers in some cases feel more regulated, rested and emotionally available, how do we reconcile that with the claim that co sleeping is the healthier option for moms overall?
- [44:29]
A
Yeah, I don't ever want to judge. If they really feel like their mental health is better and it's better for their family, then I would say good. But I, because of this work, I've spent a lot of time in the research and so I believe that human babies are meant to sleep close to their moms for a variety of reasons. So deep down I feel for those moms. They're doing it for a reason, just like the ones you mentioned when they leave the restaurant. Like, they're doing that because they have a lot of anxiety and they think this will solve their problems. You know what I mean? Like sticking to a strict schedule. Right. So I feel for them.
- [44:58]
B
What are the biggest problems with the cried out method? It. What is that doing to a baby mentally? What is that doing to mothers mentally? You know, a lot of situations you've got a dad saying this baby needs to sleep through the night. This baby is not going to be in our room. You need to, to let go. You need to let this baby sleep in their nursery. What do you have to say to that.
- [45:18]
A
Well, for babies we know the cortisol and stress hormones and there have been a couple studies that showed that the babies maybe in three to five days they do stop crying. And that's when the sleep trainers will say yes, see success. But when they actually hook the babies up and see, they see the stress hormones and they see that the babies are lying there awake, they're no longer crying, but they're awake. So cry it out doesn't really train your baby to sleep. It kind of trains them just to be quiet and silent and sort of ride it out. And I, I don't think I was sleep trained but I was just put in a separate bedroom because that's how it was in the 80s and 90s. That's what my parents did with us from night one I was put in another room. And I have not blaming my wonderful parents, they're doing the best they could. But I have a lot of anxiety at night, at nighttime, worst case scenario, if I wake up in the middle of the night, I'm thinking of all the bad things. Like I'm not blaming it, this is just my own lived experience. But I just, I didn't have like sleep is not a safe place for me. I don't feel safe when I'm sleeping or at night. Like I don't feel like if I had a problem someone would come get me and take care of me. I don't have that in my heart. And so my boys now are seven and five and again this is anecdotal but like they're not afraid of nighttime because we've either been in the same bed as them or in the same room. And now my oldest is in his own room, but he knows we're right there and the door is always open. Some people close the door, lock the door and for moms that's a hard decision. It's so hard to hear your baby cry for just a few seconds. So I can't imagine having to close the door and leave for. Sometimes they're doing it for like five minutes at a time. It just depends on what program but it rips you apart.
- [46:57]
B
Do you think that the cry it out method is affecting childhood attachment?
- [47:01]
A
I think so. Like they say we there this is the anxious generation. They say kids have all these mental health problems they didn't before which I don't know if that's true. But I mean at my kids school I definitely see it even young kids being very anxious. I wouldn't doubt it it because think about it. You're. Those are your earliest memories. You're crying, it's dark, it's silent, and no one comes to get you. Like what is that telling you about life and the rest of your life and safety and you know what I mean, it's not providing a solid foundation there.
- [47:30]
B
Do you think it's possible for kids to be securely attached without co sleeping?
- [47:35]
A
Yeah, totally. You could do room sharing, which they could be across the room or they could be in a different bedroom. But when they cry, you go to them. Cause crying is the only tool they have. When they're really little, that's all they have to get their parents attention. And so if you ignore it, what does that leave them with? So yes, you don't have to co sleep to be a nurturing, loving, good parent.
- [47:54]
B
When a parent asks will this create bad habits or dependency, what does the long term research actually say?
- [48:01]
A
Yeah, the research shows that no it doesn't. And again, it depends on the individual family. If that kid is like running the show and wants to bedshare until he's 9 years old or something and it's affecting the marriage and that's completely different. But no, we don't have hard research that says like these kids are mama's boys or just like they can't function at school or have good relationships. There's nothing negative like that that we found so far. And in these last 30 years that the AAP has been silent, we have lots of great researchers like Dr. Helen Ball and Dr. James McKenna who've done tons of studies specifically on moms sleeping next to their babies. And sometimes those studied studies would follow them as the kids grew up. Up. Oh really? Yeah. And there's nothing negative. Okay. To date that I could give you and report back and say that's compelling.
- [48:45]
B
Tell us the practical ways to make your bed safer for co sleeping.
- [48:48]
A
So I always say this isn't rocket science, but at the same time, I never give people like a free pass, especially when I'm talking on Instagram and I know people are just scrolling through so fast. We if you want to co sleep, that's wonderful, but you have to do it safely and intentionally. And if your husband's going to be in the bed, he also needs to take responsibility and be and know that the baby's there and we're not gonna be lax about any of this.
- [49:09]
B
And so I'm assuming if you're saying mom should not be smoking or drinking, co sleeping, dad should also not be smoking or drinking.
- [49:16]
A
Right. I mean if dad Has a couple drinks, and he's on the backside. Like, he's behind the mom, and the baby's right here in front of the mom. They're not gonna interact or anything. So it's probably okay. It's just up to the comfort level of that family. Like, some people are totally fine with it, and some people just say, for now, no smoking or drinking.
- [49:34]
B
Yeah. And no baby between mom and dad. Baby only on one side of mom, if possible.
- [49:38]
A
A lot of parents, when the baby becomes mobile and it's crawling, if they can't set up their bed or, like, put the bed, the mattress on the floor or set up a bed rail or something, they will put the baby in the middle. But just keep in mind that that's two adult bodies that are, like, creating a dip. Two dips in the mattress.
- [49:53]
B
So you have to do that. You have to have a bed rail or put your bed total on the floor.
- [49:56]
A
You have to, around four months, make some sort of proactive decision, like something to keep your baby safe, because that's a big factor. Falls off the bed.
- [50:04]
B
Okay.
- [50:04]
A
And it's easily preventable.
- [50:06]
B
And what else do you have to do?
- [50:08]
A
So the bed, the mattress needs to be firm and, as I said earlier, and clear of all suffocation hazards. So no bedding pillows. None of those, like, plush loungers like Docatox.
- [50:18]
B
Can the mom have a pillow?
- [50:19]
A
Totally. Yes. Because she's gonna be sleeping on her side. And this is what I call the cuddle curl position. So the baby's head is chest level. She's on her side curled around him, or her head, hand, arm is up underneath her pillow, sort of, but that protects. Like, if her baby started to inch up, her arm is blocking the pillow from the baby.
- [50:38]
B
Got it?
- [50:38]
A
Does that make sense? And then her knees are out in front of her, so that makes it impossible for her to fall forward. Because that's a big thing people say all the time. I don't want to co sleep because I'm going to roll on my baby in my sleep. And first of all, it's really hard to roll on a baby and not wake up unless you're intoxicated or something like that. Right. And babies will make noise. And it's not like you. Like, we hear of these horror stories all the time, but it's very rare. Or there's a reason, like, the person is not conscious or something like that, which is horrible. But when you lie in this cuddle curl position with your knees bent in front of you, you cannot physically roll forward your Knees block you. So for anyone listening or watching, if you don't believe me, get down on the floor right now, Pause this and try it and you'll see, you can't it do it. It's like. And this position has been observed by anthropologists all over the world. Like, it's an instinctual position that moms do. So there's probably a good reason for that because for human history, it's kept the baby safe beside them. They're right there, right where the milk is. Their arm's blocking them. The legs are keeping them in this little pocket, and the mom can't fall forward. It's perfect.
- [51:40]
B
How is mom supposed to sleep? With a blanket.
- [51:43]
A
You can wear a blanket. Use a blanket up, sheer your waist, but you don't want to pull it up to your chin because your baby's right here. But if you have it up to your waist and you have like a long sleeve top on or a pillow behind your back to help prop you up, or your partner or husband, like either spooning you or lying back to back, that can help keep you warm. Like, these are the practical things I like to talk about because it's true. Like, I don't want people to co sleep and be miserable. You got to find a way to make it work and, you know, to look forward to going to sleep. You know, like support pillows. Get all the pillows you need, like between your knees. You definitely need one to help there.
- [52:16]
B
If you had to elevate or pitch co sleeping to a skeptical parent, what would you say?
- [52:21]
A
It's just so natural. I don't know. It's just. You're just keeping the most important little person in the world close to you while you sleep. And it's been done forever and it can be done safely. And it just. You are getting hits of oxytocin all throughout the night. And it feels good. It's just a. Like a blissful feeling. I don't know how to describe it. Waking up and seeing your little person, there's a. And when they wake up, they smile at you like that you're the only thing they care about.
- [52:50]
B
Do you find that there's less rates of postpartum depression in moms who co sleep?
- [52:56]
A
There's definitely studies that show that. And just talking to people on Instagram, I hear they say, like, I was struggling with postpartum anxiety and depression so much, but once I started co sleeping, it lowered. Like, I don't have to take medication anymore. Like, it was. It just depends on the person. But sometimes having Them right there. And especially if you're worried about them breathing or SIDS or something. Something. They're right there. You could put your hand as you're lying on your side, you could put your hand on their tummy. You feel them breathing, you can hear them. You know what I mean? And you're getting the oxytocin. You're getting these feel good hormones all night long. So, yes, it's extremely beneficial for both the mom and the baby.
- [53:31]
B
What sorts of courses or training or info do you offer parents and where can they find it?
- [53:35]
A
So I'm writing a book right now, but in the meantime. Thank you. I'm just so happy that, like a major. This is Hachette is publishing it, which is a major publisher. Like, we're going to have a book in Barnes and Noble and big stores about co sleeping. That is so victory. Yeah. Because when I started in 2018, there was no Instagram account talking about this. So it's just. That's been what, seven years? Like, we've come a long way and I'm just so excited. But in the meantime, I have how to guides that I've made, like, very easy for the middle of the night, you just to like, get the info you need. And I have a really big community on Instagram that's just really encouraging. If you're feeling alone or feeling like you're the only parent with a baby in your bed, there's so many of us doing it and so what's your Instagram co? Sleepy Cute.
- [54:14]
B
Okay, I ask every guest this. If you could offer one remedy to heal a sick culture, physically, emotionally, or spiritually, what would it be?
- [54:22]
A
I mean, you know my answer, right?
- [54:24]
B
I can guess.
- [54:24]
A
I definitely think anyone who can do it safely should try co sleeping. I really think it makes a difference for the mental health of the mom and the baby. And I think we're worth it. Women and babies are worth it. Worth more research studies, more conversations like this. Maybe someone like you going in front of the AAP and talking about this like we're worth it. And I really think that could affect our culture.
- [54:45]
B
That's fun. Should we go to the AAP together?
- [54:47]
A
I would love that.
- [54:48]
B
I think that we should do it. Okay. I'm into I love any. I like, you know, excuse to protest or come up with something to just, you know, make a splash. I love that. Tiffany, you know, so proud of you for seeing a hole, a very needed hole that needed help within the parenting space and filling that with. With co sleeping information and education for moms. Just really proud of you. And my audience has been begging me to have a co sleeping person on, so it's Tiffany. I hope you guys loved it. Thank you for coming on Culture Apothecary.
- [55:17]
A
Thank you. Alex.
- [55:21]
B
Are you Pro co Sleep Pro Sleep Train or Pro Cry it out? Leave a five star review. Let us know what you thought after hearing this episode. You can continue the conversation in the Cute Servatives Facebook group by the new episodes of Culture Apothecary release Mondays and Thursdays, 6pm Pacific, 9pm Eastern, where we strategize with expert guests on how to heal a sick culture physically, emotionally and spiritually. Find the show on Instagram at Culture Apothecary or me at Real Alex Clark I'm Alex Clark and thanks for listening to Culture Apothecary.