← Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark
Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark
The Wine Mom Epidemic & The Secrets We Hide | Ericka Andersen
00:51:16
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- [00:00]
A
Is there an epidemic of Christian suburban moms in particular secretly struggling with alcoholism?
- [00:06]
B
This was my story. There I was with wine every single night, justifying it because the world told me, this is what you do. You deserve it, mama. You know, you never want to say you're glad you relapsed, but at the same time, it really was an important lesson for me and something that I can share with others. Like, it's okay to mess up. It doesn't mean that you failed. It just means that you're imperfect.
- [00:51]
A
There is a big secret amongst many suburban Christian mothers. Many are battling alcoholism. This was the case for my guest today, Erica Anderson, who is now five years sober. As a Christian mom of two living in Indianapolis. It was her biggest fear for her small group at church to know her secret until she finally got the courage. Now Erica has authored several pieces on the growing epidemic of Christian wine moms for publications like the Wall Street Journal and Christianity Today. Watch this episode on the real Alex Clark YouTube channel or culture Apothecary on Spotify. If you just started listening, I'd love to know what episode brought you here and what you think. Leave a 5 star review for us. It takes like 10 seconds and it's the fastest, easiest way to support us. It helps our show look credible to potential guests and new listeners as well as climb the podcast charts so that we're more discoverable. I read all of them. If you're looking for like minded friends who love the show, make sure you're in the cutservatives Facebook group. Please welcome Erica Anderson to Culture Apothecary. Is there an epidemic of Christian suburban moms in particular secretly struggling with alcoholism?
- [01:57]
B
I think that there might be and most people don't know about it. Um, what I say about that is when you look at the statistics for the number of women struggling with alcohol in general in the American public, you can sort of blueprint those statistics right onto the church. And they're going to be very similar in lining up. And most people just don't realize how good women are at hiding this because they're so ashamed and they're so scared to admit it.
- [02:22]
A
Was this your story?
- [02:23]
B
This was my story. For many, many years, I struggled with an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. Would I call it addiction? You know, are very weird about sort of how they want to classify themselves. Like alcoholic addiction. It doesn't really matter what you call it. For so many years, I felt like I was in a pit. I was sort of oppressed by alcohol. And there isn't a single person in my life that would have said, hey, you have a problem, because I could hide it, because I could. I was a high functioning, you know, mom of two young kids, working a full time job, you know, leading Bible study at my church, writing a book, doing all the things, and underneath it all, I was suffering. And I felt like no one could understand and I had no one to talk to about it.
- [03:09]
A
How did it kind of start for you?
- [03:11]
B
It started way back in high school when I first started drinking, as many people do, sort of, you know, sort of just a social thing. It's not a big deal, whatever. But throughout my life through college, which by the way, college is definitely a, your excuse to binge drink and nobody will ever call you out on that in college.
- [03:28]
A
Well, and you and I also are, are from Indiana and there's like not much else to do in college in Indiana than drink and party.
- [03:35]
B
Right? And that's, you know, if you go to a college such as I did, Indiana University, like that is sort of what you do. And it's one of the things that I did. And so of course then I was like, well, I mean, I'm just doing what everyone else does. But there was always this nagging thing in the back of my mind, like something's not right about the way that you drink. And also as a Christian, I felt bad about it. Like I was like being drunk. In the Bible it says being getting drunk is a sin and I'm getting drunk. And so these two things were always sort of pulling at me. But, you know, graduated from college, moved on to young professional life where drinking kind of shifted, but it still was a major part of daily life. I had moved to Washington D.C. and if you know anything about D.C. it is one of the most probably drunk towns in, in the country where you're.
- [04:24]
A
Doing all of your business meetings over drinks.
- [04:26]
B
Like, right.
- [04:26]
A
The time that you have to like connect and network and things is like meeting at the bar after you've been on the hill all day or whatever.
- [04:33]
B
Sometimes these are like kind of high pressure, high stakes situations. You want to be able to relax, you want to be able to talk, but it kind of takes you back to almost like a Mad Men era type of DC like you're almost like people are having martini lunches still there and, and that doesn't seem very common other parts of the world, maybe New York City, but so I did that and you know, kind of felt was still not making great choices, still high performing, high functioning, career person moving on. And then you know, I get married, I have kids, and it morphs into another part of my life. And I think having kids really kicked me into a place where I was like, I have to start thinking seriously about this. Not that anything crazy had ever happened to me, but I knew that it could. And I also felt very oppressed by, like, the need to drink, the desire to drink, the inability to stop when I knew that I should, and the responsibility to my kids and what I was going to be teaching them. Given the fact as well, that we have a lot of addiction on both sides of our families. My husband and I.
- [05:37]
A
Were you just being a mom, two kids, Indiana, suburbia, and secretly thinking, like, gosh, I just can't wait to have a glass of wine. Yeah.
- [05:46]
B
Every day. Because alcohol, you know, so many people blame themselves. They say, oh, I'm just weak, like, I don't have enough faith. And I thought all those things. I just thought if I was just stronger, if I could just, you know, hold on to the promises of God, I could do this. But the reality is that alcohol is an addictive substance and if you drink it on a regular basis, you are going to become addicted. Maybe not so much physically, although that's certainly the case. But mentally, you train your brain and your body to. To think it needs alcohol every single day. And so it makes sense that every day at 5 o' clock your body's going, where's my wine? Because you've told it. Oh, you need this to function. And even though rationally you know that you don't, your body, you have trained it to think, I've gotta have this, to do the dishes, to make dinner, to take care of the kids. Because it, you know, that. That time in life, like when your kids are like little toddlers, that's really stressful time. It's hard. And getting through the night, sometimes it's just like they call it the witching hour. Really, when you have kids, like, it's like four to six or seven, where it's just like how this, this night feels like it's never going to end, with baths and crying and dinner and all this stuff. And even though you love your kids, like obsessed with my kids, love them so much, I never want them to leave my house, but it was still hard for me. And so there I was with wine every single night, justifying it, because the world told me, this is what you do. You deserve it, Mama. And so I did it. But in the back of my mind, I knew, like, something's not right about this. And Eventually, I know I'm gonna have to change.
- [07:22]
A
Were there certain health professionals or friends or family that you reached out to about just the stress of being a mom, being burnout, and they actually suggested alcohol to you?
- [07:33]
B
Well, I actually had a doctor that once said suggested alcohol to me. Now, I wasn't necessarily reaching out to her about the stress of being a mom, but I, I don't, I don't remember the context of the conversation, but it was something about, you know, life being hectic and all of that. And this doctor, I read about this in, in the, the piece that I wrote for the Wall Street Journal, this doctor said to me, you know, there's nothing wrong with just like, just have a glass of wine if you need to relax. And now she didn't know that I was struggling, right? But at the same time, I was like, there's something wrong with a doctor, like, telling me to drink a glass of wine. She thinks it's harmless. She thinks, you know, she doesn't know that I'm having this problem. But it really bothers me that a medical professional would do that because, you know, we know now and we'll probably get into this a little bit. Even the American Cancer Society says now no amount of alcohol is, is safe anymore. I just think there's sort of a disconnect there within the medical, at least the traditional medical community and where we are today as women. When you look at the rates of alcohol related deaths, binge drinking, and all the struggles that have come on, really, in the past 10, 15 years.
- [08:43]
A
Well, it's interesting what you just brought up, because I think one of the ways women rationalize drinking, needing that glass of wine every night is that somewhere down the line we were told, like, a glass of red wine is healthy, it's good for you. And then I had somebody recently on the show who actually said, oh, that was marketing by alcohol companies, which I did not know. So they're like, there is no evidence that alcohol is actually like, even a small amount is healthy. Even if it's just red wine. I mean, is that what you found?
- [09:12]
B
Yeah, I mean, a lot of that. Those studies are actually funded by big alcohol, the alcohol industry. Like, they're funding studies to say this. Like, that's why you should always question, question things when you see things like that. Now, that doesn't mean that there is absolutely zero nutrients within wine. Like, there may be some. And I think that there are. However, the negatives outweigh the benefits. And when you're talking about wine is good for you, we're talking about. And, and again, I'm, I'm speaking as a non medical professional here. If you were going to drink it for health reasons, it would be like such a small amount, less than 5 ounces, like maybe once or twice a week. And how many people are drinking that little that are justifying their drinking with, with the health benefits? It doesn't happen. And the reality is you can get all of those same nutrients from natural foods like blueberries and raspberries and strawberries and all of these other things. You don't need wine to get those nutrients.
- [10:10]
A
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- [13:08]
B
Well, my kids are 7 and 9 now, and let's just say mornings are still very stressful. I don't know that, that ever, but, you know, especially stressful when they're toddlers. And so I'm getting up, I'm getting them ready, you know, taking them to daycare in the mornings and going to work and then it's, it's working all day and then coming home. And then that's when the feeling hits. It's the trigger, it's the craving, and it's this feeling of I have to get my hands on this. Like, I must have this or I just, I can't. I can't walk through this afternoon. I. Now, that is not true. That is not a rational thought, but it is what my brain would tell me. And so if I had alcohol in the house, you know, I would just drink it. If I didn't, which I often didn't, because I would try to make rules for myself. Oh, we're not going to keep it in the house because it'll be harder to drink. But then I'm making excuses to, oh, I've got to go pick something up. I've got to stop at Target. I've got to stop at the grocery store.
- [14:05]
A
So you are finding yourself making up fake errands just so you could go pick up alcohol.
- [14:10]
B
Exactly, exactly. And it would be like. It really does feel like almost like a drug addiction because I would walk into which alcohol is a drug, which we can talk about, but because I would walk into the store and I would be like, I don't want to see anybody. I don't want to talk to anybody. I just need to get this and go. Like, it was almost like a shame spiral of, like, I. I want to be invisible right now because I'm just going to get my drug. Coming home and then acting, like, really nonchalant with my husband, like, oh, yeah, I got some wine, you know, like. Like it wasn't a big deal, but knowing that, like, I had specifically planned that out. And anyone who has opened a bottle of wine at 5pm the chances of stopping at one glass while you're cooking dinner, like, very, very small. And maybe there are people that can do it. It's not me. So I would end up essentially drinking the whole bottle most. Most of the time, really, throughout the course of the night, like, throughout, you know, over two or three hours. Because it just. There it was. It was there. It made me feel good. It also stay would stave my hunger off, which I have a history with eating disorders. And so there was like, this weird relationship between the drinking and the hunger, which could be a whole other probably podcast episode. But what you'll find is a lot of women who struggle with alcohol also struggled with eating or disordered eating.
- [15:28]
A
Why do you think that is?
- [15:29]
B
It's just like a transfer of sort of the control or the mechanism that you use to deal with the stress or deal with the whatever it is that you're trying to push off. And so I would end up drinking the whole bottle. And then at the end of the night, it turns into, okay, I'm going to chug water, I'm going to take Excedrin, I'm going to drink Gatorade, and, you know, I'll be fine. I'll wake up in the morning and I'll be fine, and then I'm not going to drink for the rest of the week.
- [15:54]
A
Were there ever moments where you were tucking your kids in for bed and in the back of your mind you were like, I'm a little drunk right now.
- [15:59]
B
I have a book coming out next year on this topic, and I was one of the chapters. Starts with the story of me rocking my daughter to sleep, basically drunk. Nothing bad happened. You know, I put her to bed. But walking out of her room going, who does that? Who needs a. A drink to rock their precious little. I mean, talk about the most precious moments that you will ever, ever experience in your life. And I mean, like, I almost feel like I could cry thinking about it because, like, you don't get those moments back, you know? And it really breaks my heart that I would have sacrificed that because, you know, you don't remember things clearly. You know, that's one of the things that I think about when we. We think about, like, oh, we drink at weddings, we drink all these things. We're just like. And then we don't remember it as clearly as we could have because we filled it with alcohol. I'm so thankful that I quit drinking before my kids were older. They're not going to remember a moment of me having a drink around them, but I still sort of mourn those times that I did drink around them. And that was one of those moments that led up to the change. Like, I remember thinking, I can't keep doing this. Like, I can't be doing this until I'm 75 years old, praying the same prayers and going back to wine, as if this liquid has a power over me.
- [17:21]
A
So when did you realize that it had crossed from a coping mechanism into something more problematic?
- [17:27]
B
My firstborn, my son was born. Of course, I didn't drink through throughout my pregnancy. And, you know, a lot of people will say, oh, well, I didn't drink through my pregnancy, so I must not have a problem. Well, a lot of moms, a lot of people that have an alcohol problem are able to not drink through their pregnancy. I don't know, the body takes over. Like, it's just a different thing. You're living for a whole other person like that. You have to keep alive. And I. I just wasn't a problem for me. However, when my son was born, you know, I'm breastfeeding, and, you know, as soon as he was born, like, you know, within days, I was like, oh, I get to have a drink now. You know, very exciting, and I get to drink again. And I found myself being like, oh, but if I drink, I'm gonna have to pump and dump, you know, my breast milk because I can't give it to him, which, you know, I was having trouble breastfeeding. Anyway. But long story short, I, I sort of gave up breastfeeding in part because I didn't want to deal with that. Now. It was really hard for me. I, I'm not gonna say that it was only that, but it gave me an excuse to be like, well, I don't wanna deal with this anyways. Cause every time I would pump and dump, you know, people know breast milk is like, you're like, this is liquid gold. And I'm throwing it down, throwing it down the sink. But that really, to me, I look back and I think, that was so selfish, that was so selfish of you. And I think maybe that was the beginning of me feeling like, okay, like one day I felt God was saying, like, one day, like, you are gonna give this up. But at the time I was, I, I couldn't see how.
- [18:52]
A
Who tends to struggle with alcohol addiction more, men or women?
- [18:56]
B
So the numbers show that men have higher rates of alcoholism and struggles. Historically, however, the numbers of women, that's been climbing for like 20 years. So we are seeing the rates of women dying from alcohol related deaths, which could be liver disease, heart disease, cancer, it could include car wrecks, all of these things that has been on a significant rise for the past few decades. And I think a lot of it can be traced back to alcohol marketing. Women began being targeted with all of these, you know, female focused drinks around that time. So we see that and it just became more acceptable for women to be drinkers. And thus we have seen this ridiculous climb in the way it's affecting our health. The most crazy statistic to me was that in the pan. The pandemic exacerbated all this times a million. And the crazy statistic to me is that women with children 5 and under during the pandemic increase their rates of binge drinking and alcohol issues. I'm blanking on the statistic right now, but it's like over 50%. It was so high and, and I landed squarely in that category. My kids were 2 and 4.
- [20:06]
A
So was the pandemic rock bottom? As a Christian mom struggling with alcoholism.
- [20:10]
B
It wasn't rock bottom because I think right before the pandemic hit, I was already sort of there. So I had quit drinking for about six months when the pandemic hit. And I had even spoken to my church. Like I said, I'm free. I wasn't free. Turns out I, you know, pandemic hit and it was just like, I ended up being like, I can't do it, I can't do it. You know, My neighbors, we routes socially distanced, you know, drinking in the cul de sac. And I was just like, I just. I feel like I can't do it anymore. And so I ended up starting back up. And at first it was like, oh, this is fine. Like, I don't have a problem. But it wasn't. But a couple months where I was, like, right back where I started feeling totally oppressed. And I found myself one night, it was a Sunday night, and I had been drinking with my neighbors, and I had a big meeting in the morning, and I was like, okay, well, how much more gonna have? I'm, like, debating and, like, trying to figure out how am I going to wake up without a headache? And I thought to myself, why are you having this conversation? This doesn't need to be part of your life anymore. So I said, okay, tomorrow's September. I'm doing sober or. Sorry, yeah, sober September or something like that. And I said, I'm just going to do 30 days. I got to get it out of my system. And that is what began where I am now, four and a half years, five years later, sober for all that time.
- [21:27]
A
How much did the mommy wine culture on social media or mommy juice merch that we see all the time on Instagram play into normalizing your alcoholism?
- [21:38]
B
I think all of that stuff definitely was in the back of my mind from even the time before I was a mom, just in general, too. Just the. The cultural acceptance of drinking as a stress reliever. Drinking at the end of a day. I remember when I first moved to. When I first moved to D.C. this is such a weird story, but I'll tell it anyway. So I moved. I had. I was staying in an apartment by myself, and I remember being like, oh, like, I'm a real adult now. And I went and got my own six pack of beer by myself. I drank, I think, four of them. And I was like, well, I'm not even hungry anymore. And I went to bed, and I got up the next day and went running. And I kind of look back on that. I go, there's something wrong with that. Like. Like, why would you do that again? The hunger thing, the. The eating disorder thing coming in. But it was then that I. I started justifying all these cultural markers. Like, yeah, everybody drinks when they're stressed. Like, everybody goes to happy hour. It's fine to have a drink a day. That's not a big deal. And then as I move toward motherhood, you know, those messages become even more intense. You start to see them on the mugs and the shirts and, you know, the, the social media memes and the tick tocks and all of that, and you go, well, I'm normal. Everybody does this. It's fine. So I'm like, honestly, what I was doing was I was gaslighting myself out of believing I had a problem. Like, I was like knowing I had a problem, but then I was justifying it like, no, you don't have a problem. If you had a problem, people would say something. I would even ask a friend, even my husband, I would say like, I don't know, do you think? And they would all be like, no, you're fine. But you know, when I talk about my husband, like he grew up with a mom who was, was truly a hardcore alcoholic and, and she had drug problems. And so when he looked at me with my life all put together, he's like, well, I mean, you're not even close to that. And so even to him, I didn't have a problem.
- [23:31]
A
Ever wonder what bedtime would be like if your favorite stuffed animal still slept with you? It'd probably sound like this. Hey there.
- [23:39]
C
It's me, Teddy. Yeah, your snuggle buddy since, well, forever. And I gotta say, this summer, it's hot. I used to dread bedtime. We'd both be tossing, turning, sweating. I'd wake up stuck to your cheek like a marshmallow. But not anymore. Because now we've got Cozy Earth bedding. These sheets, they're made from 100% premium viscose from bamboo and whoa, this is way better than those scratchy plastic Barbie sheets. They're breathable, soft, and they get softer with every wash. I mean, I haven't even aged this well, even when you rubbed all the fur on my ear off.
- [24:19]
A
Cozy Earth gives you a 100 night trial and a 10 year warranty, so you know, it's the real deal. Want your own bedtime Upgrade? Go to cozyearth.com Alex and use code Alex for up to 40% off. That's cozyearth.com AlexCode Alex. Because a better year starts with better sleep. And better sleep starts right here with Cozy Earth. Scoot over.
- [24:38]
C
I need my corner of the pillow.
- [24:40]
A
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- [25:59]
B
Early days, it was all online mostly. At first I was like, before I even got sober, I was just trying to find one person that I could say, like, I think I might have a problem and I'm not sure what to do. But I was so, so, so embarrassed. Like I, I couldn't tell anyone because I thought people are going to think I'm a bad mom. People are going to judge my faith, people are going to think, you know, they don't want their kids around me. You know, I was just blowing it up into this massive of big deals, so afraid to tell anyone. And so I would just, I would sort of reach out to people if I saw someone talking about it, I might send a DM or something. But ultimately, at the beginning of the pandemic, I finally joined a group called the Luckiest Club. And that is like an online support group similar to aa. It's not AA though. And they started having meetings four to five times a day and four to.
- [26:52]
A
Five times a day. Oh, because it was the pandemic.
- [26:54]
B
It was pandemic. But they still have them. They still have them four to five times a day because they want it to be accessible to anyone. And they have, you know, themed meeting.
- [27:03]
A
Okay, so you can pick one of the five you don't have.
- [27:06]
B
You can go to all.
- [27:07]
A
Okay.
- [27:07]
B
Some people do like in the beginning of their sobriety where they're just like, I'm just hanging on by thread. They're like, come to all the Meetings.
- [27:12]
A
And so is this just all women?
- [27:14]
B
No, it's men and women. Okay. I would say there's definitely more women. It was started by a woman named Laura McCowan, who is sort of a leader in. In the space and sort of like the non traditional sobriety space. That's not aa. And there's a lot more places like that now than there used to be. Back when I first started thinking about this, even, gosh, 10, 12 years ago, there was almost nothing. Like, I would look online and be like, well, I can't go to an AA meeting. That's insane. I was terrified. I'm like, I go to a building and walk into a room. There was no way I was going to do that. And that's why I think these online meetings where you can. You can hop on the zoom, you don't have to turn your camera on, you don't have to talk, and you can just sort of like, be there. And for me, that was huge because I all of a sudden realized, oh, I'm actually not that abnormal and there's people just like me in this room. And you don't have to, you know, lose custody of your children and get a DUI and be thrown in jail to be like, I don't want to do this anymore with my life. Alcohol is affecting me in a negative way, and I have a choice on whether or not I want that anymore.
- [28:17]
A
How in the world did you bring this up with your church? Because to me, that would be the most terrifying of all.
- [28:21]
B
It was definitely God working. So my pastor had come to me. I went to a small church at the time. They said, we're doing this series about the way God has moved in our life. I don't remember specifically what they said, but they said, we're wondering if you can talk about, you know, something God has done in your life. And I had been sober for like five months, four months at the time. And I just thought, oh, no. Yeah, I felt it. I felt, you know, I felt like God was pushing me to say, you should talk about this. And so I. I said, okay, I gotta talk to you guys about something. I kind of like just dumped the whole story on the phone. I was like, sobbing. I had never talked about it openly and I. I couldn't talk about it without crying at the time. And they're like, this is amazing. We want you to share. And so he's like, okay. So ultimately, I did go in front of my church and share my story through lots of tears. I still. It was, it was so. So the beginning, it was so raw. Like, I couldn't talk about it because I. I just. It was the first time I had really expressed.
- [29:17]
A
Yeah.
- [29:17]
B
You know, and so I did it, and it was amazing. I had people coming up to me after church, you know, confessing not just alcohol, but, like, multiple different kinds of addictions and issues. And.
- [29:28]
A
Was that overwhelming?
- [29:29]
B
It was because you're just like, oh, I don't know how to. Like, you want to help everyone.
- [29:34]
A
Yeah.
- [29:35]
B
And sometimes I feel that online as well, because I. I want to help everyone, but you can't be a best friend to everyone. You know what I mean? But if somebody is reaching out to me, like, I'm go. I'm never not going to reach out back. And so anyway, and, you know, I made friends with a woman who sort of secretly came to me, wanted to talk with me about her problem. We had this great conversation, and we're still friends, we're still in touch. And then the pandemic happened, and I relapsed, started drinking again, and I thought I could. Oh, my God. Nobody at church can ever know this. I can never show my face again. But now, looking back, you know, you never want to say you're glad you relapsed, but at the same time, it really was an important lesson for me and something that I can share with others. Like, it's okay to mess up and relapse sometimes is part of it, part of the journey, but that's okay, and you can keep going. And I had that experience, and I'm able to speak to that now. I know what it's like, and it doesn't mean that you failed. It just means that you're imperfect.
- [30:30]
A
What were some of the most surprising stories you heard from other Christian moms struggling with alcohol?
- [30:36]
B
I think what's interesting is that. That so many people are just so secretive and don't know. I. I got emails from people that are like, I'm a pastor's wife, and I. I'm afraid of my husband is going to lose his job or I'm going to lose my place in ministry, or I get messages that are like, you know, ever since my son was born, I've been struggling, and I feel like I just. I don't know how to get out of this. And so I don't know that any of it was super surprising, but it was just like people felt a relief or a weight lifted that they had somebody that got it. And specifically on the faith side, I think makes a difference, because for me, like, in the luckiest club, the support program I mentioned that is not faith based. And I really felt a lot of disconnection between myself and people there in the meetings. They were great. They were super helpful for me, and I would never have not done them. But at the same time, I think when a Christian woman hears me speak, they're like, okay, like, she's gonna get this on a different level than. Than anyone else. Because as Christians, like, our faith is number one. Like, we can't walk forward without that being a huge component of it. And so I think for. For some of the people that reached out to me, that was really a relief to them.
- [31:48]
A
How did your relationships with your church, your kids, your spouse kind of shift as you moved towards sobriety? Friends? Did you lose friends?
- [31:58]
B
I didn't lose friends at first. I wasn't really telling people a whole lot, but as a mom of young kids, I wasn't going out a lot anyway with friends. Telling my small group at church was. Was huge for me. Very scary. I was terrified to tell them. I was terrified to ask for prayer. But I have written about before how that was a huge turning point for me because, number one, they, of course, reacted with complete grace and love and that, you know, they said, well, thank you for telling us, and we're gonna pray for you. And there was no pressure. It was just a beautiful way to sort of open it up and get it out of the darkness, which is so important. And we've all heard this before, like, shame breeds in the darkness, but when you bring it out to the light, it cannot grow. And that is exactly the experience I had. As soon as I started talking about it, it couldn't grow anymore. So that was huge with my husband. He and I drank a lot together in the beginning of our relationship. And he is not a great drinker. He has, like I said, a history of addiction in his past. And so he. He doesn't. He's not sober, but, like, he barely ever drinks now. And so when we would have arguments and fights and any kind of issue that would arise because we were drinking, all of that has completely disappeared. We don't have that anymore. There is no problem. And so I think that was a huge thing for me too, because I didn't want my kids to see that either.
- [33:18]
A
Yeah.
- [33:18]
B
Because of alcohol. And then with my kids, not only do I now have a reason to say, like, yeah, don't drink. You know, you're not supposed to drink till you're 21. For, like, no reason. I can say to them, you know, we have this history of addiction in our family and that's why I don't drink. And that's why your dad doesn't drink, aside from the occasional like beer at Christmas or whatever. And they can look at their, their grandmother who they actually never met because they were estranged because of her alcoholism and drug issues. We tell them about the way that my husband grew up and they know that there's something dangerous about alcohol for us. I said specifically for you guys because it may affect you in a way that it doesn't affect other people. And we just have to be really careful. And I think when you approach the topic like that with kids, rather than just like you're not supposed to do that. I read this somewhere and I can't point to the study at the moment, but when, when kids have that really deeper, more meaningful reason, they are much more likely to not abuse it or wait until later. Because if you wait until you're 25, I mean, I know 25 is late, but any people who wait till they're 25 to try drugs or alcohol at all, or 21, even the rates of addiction go down, like totally going down a mountain. Because the younger you do it, the more likely it is that you are going to potentially have an addiction simply because your brain is still forming and you're training it to, to be addicted, essentially.
- [34:49]
A
That makes sense. That's really interesting. You know, some churches still serve wine as part of communion. What do you think about that?
- [34:56]
B
I don't think that drinking alcohol is a sin. I think there's a lot that we could go into regarding that. Things like the fact that, you know, back in, back in Jesus day, a lot of alcohol wasn't fermented. It didn't have nearly the high alcohol content that it does today. So I think there's a lot of factors that go into that. I would say if a church is still serving wine, you should definitely have a non alcoholic option. I would probably say don't, don't serve wine. There's just no need. You can get non alcoholic wine these days. I mean the, so like the non alcoholic brands, these, it's skyrocket. They're everywhere. You can get anything.
- [35:33]
A
It's never been easier to go sober, I think, which is really cool and exciting.
- [35:37]
B
Yeah.
- [35:38]
A
Whether it's because you are struggling with a problem or you just want to be sober for health benefits. Like it's becoming so in vogue to get a mocktail instead of a cocktail. And like people don't even necessarily know what your reason Is like, because it's just so normal now, which I think is great because 10 years ago I think it would have been a lot harder.
- [35:59]
B
Yes.
- [36:00]
A
To say like, oh, I'm gonna be sober now. Because like, nobody was doing that. But it's really in now.
- [36:04]
B
One of my biggest fears, like, what, what am I gonna say? People are gonna wonder. It's gonna be, yeah, why?
- [36:10]
A
When they say why?
- [36:11]
B
Why? I mean, I stress out about that to the point where I laugh at myself now because I could care less now, you know, and that's, that happens with time. There are so many like sort of tools and things that you can use. Like you haven't. I'm, I'm, I'm going running in the morning. I'm training for a marathon. I'm not feeling great. I'm on medicine that I'm not supposed to mix. There's so many things you can say to sort of push it off so you don't have to be like, I'm sober. You don't have to say that. But I, I think that, you know, these days it is more common to be sober or not drink. And honestly, hardly anyone ever asks me, even if I'm in a place where they don't know that I'm sober, nobody really cares. And the people that do care probably have their own alcohol issue that they may not even realize.
- [36:59]
A
I had no idea sunscreen was so controversial. And honestly, neither did Primally Pure. They just launched their brand new mineral based sunscreen and it's phenomenal. But when they put up billboards saying the sun isn't poison, but your conventional sunscreen might be, the conventional medicine crowd lost it. Here's why they're mad. Most sunscreens are loaded with hormone disrupting chemicals like oxybenzone that actually absorb into your bloodstream and are potentially carcinogenic when exposed to UV light. But apparently wanting non toxic sunscreen is crazy in right wing territory. Now meanwhile, we're all walking around vitamin D deficient because we've been told to fear the sun. Primally Pure is flipping the script. Their sun cream, sun stick and sun lip balm are truly non toxic. Made with nourishing ingredients like grass fed tallow, beeswax and mango butter and provide broad spectrum protection without toxic seed oils or a white cast. The sun isn't the enemy, but chemical sunscreens, they are. Go to primallypure.com, use code AlexClark at checkout for 15% off. That's primallypure.com, code Alex Clark for 15% off. If you want to just. Just use chemical cancer sunscreen to own the conservatives, be our guest. I always travel with seed oil. Free snacks, non negotiable. So when I showed up at my best friend's house a few days ago with a bag of masa chips, I didn't expect much fanfare. But then all four of her kids surrounded me like a pack of wild hyenas. They were begging for a bite, and so was my friend. After everybody tried them, I had to know, what's the verdict on masa chips? Every single kid said they were really good, Ms. Alex. But there was one kid who didn't say anything. He's one and a half. He only knows like two words. But he did keep scooting over and holding his hand out and grunting for more. So even babies know a superior chip when they eat one. Masa chips are made with just three ingredients. Organic, nixtamalized corn, grass fed beef, tallow, and Redmond's real salt. That's it. No seed oils, no weird additives, no fake stuff. Just real nourishing food. Even for growing brains and babies. These chips are thick, crunchy, and they don't break in guac, which is a hill I will die on. And yes, they do taste better than the ones that you grew up with because they're cooked the real way, in tallow, not industrial junk. So if you want in, use code real Alex Clark for 25 off your first purchase@masachips.com that's real Alex Clark for 25 off your first Purchase@masachips.com how did you balance being a mom and taking care of yourself during recovery?
- [39:26]
B
I went to the meetings. I made those a priority because for me it, it helped to know like, oh my gosh, these other hundred people in this meeting are also not drinking today. And this other mom on this meeting that's just like me is also not drinking today. So that was huge. Also just taking care of yourself, drinking enough water, you know, prioritizing exercise, that's always been something I did. But definitely, I think it became a little bit even more front and center at the time just because it helps elevate my mood, it sort of keeps me balanced. So that was something that I did and just sort of re remembering that you have to. You just like that moments will pass, hard moments will pass and you just have to walk through them. And I think when you're drinking the way that I was, as like a habitual drinker doing in an unhealthy way you feel like those moments, you're like, I will never get through this. This, I'm gonna feel like this forever. And when you quit drinking, the rationality to your brain comes back where you realize, no, I'm not going to feel like this forever. And you can be more present and, and see those, like those moments with your kids that are hard but good, they are even more clear. Doesn't mean that it goes away. It's still hard to put children to bed and always will be.
- [40:41]
A
Yeah, I believe.
- [40:43]
B
But you start to see the benefits and the, the further along you get, you go, oh my gosh, I can't believe that I was living life any other way before this.
- [40:54]
A
What have you learned about the health risks of alcohol specifically towards women?
- [41:00]
B
So much. Certainly there were, you know, a myriad of reasons why I ended up quitting drinking, but the health side of it was definitely in there partially because I just kept hearing all these studies and all this research about how know it's associated with cancer and all of these other autoimmune diseases, heart disease. If you look at the statistics, there are so many studies out there, you will see the correlation all over the board. And I couldn't ignore that. And as a, as a person that has a lot of cancer in my family, I just thought, am I shortening my life every time I do this? Like, how much am I chopping off my life because of this liquid? You know, I would think about it like that. I would think this is just like a drink. And I'm, I'm, I'm drinking it regularly, abusing my body and potentially shortening my life.
- [41:54]
A
But for what, right?
- [41:56]
B
For nothing good. Like the, the, the negatives far outweigh the positives and so I couldn't get once, you know, you can't unknow, I think. And I think that's very much the same. A lot of your guests here, Alex, it's like, like you've learned so much in the past few years.
- [42:11]
A
So much.
- [42:12]
B
Well, you're just like, well, I can't, I can't do that. I mean, I can't. You know, and I, it started with reading a book and I always recommend this as, as the, for a great first book, this Naked Mind by Annie Grace. I, I learned so much about how alcohol affects your health in there. And again it was a once, you know, you can't unknow. So all of that just was just like this ground swell of, of leading up to like, I gotta do this. I don't want to be 65 and dealing with this. I don't want my kids growing up with this. I don't want to have, you know, cancer or do something stupid. I mean, as much as I'd never had some horrible thing happen to me because of it, I could have. I'm lucky, right? Did I ever drive tipsy? Yeah, I did. Did I ever make bad choices? Lots of them. I mean, I. Walking places alone, going with people I didn't know. By the grace of God, something bad didn't happen to me because you just, your defenses are down and, and I, I worry like, what if I, you know, what if my 2 year old, I'm not paying attention, my 2 year old like crawls off into the road or, you know, I didn't think that would happen, but it could. And I just thought I would never, it would be, it would ruin my life.
- [43:25]
A
So what are some of the tools, five years later sober that you have employed to help you stay sober?
- [43:30]
B
Well, as I've mentioned, the meetings were great, very important. The community aspect, so important. And, and we hear that about everything. But that's because it's true. You've got to get among people that know the experience and you can talk to honestly about it. Going to meetings, whether it's an aad, AA meeting, whether it's the luckiest club, like I mentioned, and there's a whole bunch of other ones out there now too. I wish everybody could go to those meetings. They are so raw, so real, and they just, just, they break down the barriers that all other social norms have. I always say church should be more like an AA meeting because we need to just get in there and just lay it all down. Tears, all the things, all the stories, so highly rec. You've got to find a group. It didn't work for me until I found a group. So that was one. Sharing with people in person. My small group, like I mentioned, huge. Whether that's one friend or just a couple. I do think you need someone in your real life that knows what you're going through, to talk to. And to be honest, I'd also just like to emphasize that people are full of grace and less judgmental than you would think, at least in my experience. So that's something to keep in mind if it's something you're worried about. But then secondly, you've got your healthy habits. So make like for, for me, I constantly have like 80 flavors of Lacroix in my refrigerator. I love to have a drink, so I stocked up on all that stuff. You know, I wake up every Morning, I drink a full glass of water. You make sure you're fueling your body, like eating healthy, all of that, like that takes away from the cravings. When you are really taking care of yourself.
- [45:07]
A
Absolutely.
- [45:07]
B
And sleep, when you stop drinking, your sleep gets better. And when your sleep gets better, your life gets better. I mean, it's just, you know, it's all of it, all of it goes together. And there are also a lot of little mental sort of things that you can do. One of my favorite ones is, well, two. One is play the tape forward. So go there in your mind. Say you drink the whole bottle of wine. What's it going to feel like after? What's it going to feel like tomorrow? Get yourself in those emotions and then decide, do I want to do that? So that's one. The second my favorite one is I think it's already tomorrow in Australia. So we know that this day will end and tomorrow will begin. And there are people in Australia that are drinking their coffee right now. And so I don't know what it is about thinking that, but it helped, it helped me, it helped me to be like, you can get through this moment and you'll have a morning tomorrow and you don't have to have a headache and you don't have to wake up totally exhausted. And there are so many other little sort of hijacks like that that you can help to think it through.
- [46:07]
A
Reflecting on all the research that you've done, what's one change you hope the church makes to better support Christian moms wrestling with alcoholism in silence?
- [46:16]
B
First of all, being educated that there.
- [46:18]
A
Is a problem because 9% of US women are struggling with alcoholism and likely.
- [46:23]
B
The same in the church because we, the statistics mirror. I would say, number one, a lot of people just don't know. So I do want the church to know that it's a problem. Number two, to acknowledge that's a problem. When a pastor's preaching the sermon like, and you're talking, you're talking through some of the things that people struggle with, mention that make that person feel seen. One of the best things that I, you know, in some of my research that I saw was this one church. The reason they started Celebrate Recovery, which is a Christian faith based sort of AA within a lot of churches. They had done an anonymous survey of their congregation. Just sort of like, oh, what are you struggling with? Because it was anonymous, it came back that a lot of people were struggling with substance abuse issues. They had no idea.
- [47:03]
A
Whoa.
- [47:04]
B
I said, well, we've got to do something. About this. And so they started a celebrate recovery program at the church. After I heard that, I thought to myself, every church should be doing anonymous surveys. Yes. Because nobody's just going to put their name on that, no way and say it. But if you can do it anonymously, then they know, okay, this is what our people are struggling with. Like, this is where God is going to lead us to, you know, take our sermon series or whatever it may be. And then especially at bigger churches that have the capacity to offer outside programs, like offering those programs, I'm actually about to would suggest to my church, like, hey, maybe I should lead a small group on this. I haven't done it yet, but cool.
- [47:41]
A
Yes.
- [47:41]
B
But just being aware because it is a silent issue, like you don't know it's the person that you don't think it is. It's having a problem. And if you don't have a problem, you wouldn't understand or you wouldn't be able to recognize it. And so I think that awareness is really key.
- [47:56]
A
If you could do like an elevator pitch to the mom who is counting down the minutes to having her glass of wine tonight, what would you say to her?
- [48:03]
B
I would say play the tape forward. I would say stop and say a 10 second prayer. Even if you feel like it's not gonna help. Drink a glass of water. Make a list of 10 things that you have to do before you can have the wine. Doesn't mean you can't have the wine, but do the 10 things first. And then if you still want it, you can have it. And what you'll find is that a lot of times that desire will be decreased. And also you can go Download my toolkit sobrietycurious.com because I have a lot of podcasts, books, tips, tricks, all of that. Just something I packaged up together so that people are like, I don't know what to do next. It's like, okay, grab this little toolkit, have your list, print it out, and then you always have something to go back to.
- [48:47]
A
If you could offer one remedy to heal a sick culture, it could be physically, mentally or spiritually, what would it be?
- [48:54]
B
Prioritizing your faith life as a holistic part of your health as a whole would be it. I wrote a book last year called Reason to Return about why women should return to the church. And to me, focusing on your faith life just as you would. A part of your health has so many benefits. Just as you would eat your nutrition, get your sleep, all of that, prioritizing your faith life, going to church, being in scripture, prayer, all of that, like that's going to lead to a much more whole fulfilled life. And all of those things also, as you probably know, contribute to much better rates of mental health, fulfillment, marriage, all of that stuff. And so, so that's what I would say is, is implementing your faith life, making that a part of your whole health life.
- [49:40]
A
Where can people read more about your work?
- [49:43]
B
Yeah. So sobrietycurious.com is the first place that they can go to get the toolkit and learn more. And then me, I'm all over the place. Erica Anderson and in my book comes out in January, it's called Freely Sober Rethinking Alcohol through the Lens of Faith. And it's targeted for Christian women. And so I would love, I would love it if everyone would read that when it comes out. Absolutely. Yes.
- [50:05]
A
Erica, thank you for coming on Culture Apothecary.
- [50:07]
B
Thank you so much.
- [50:11]
A
I love this story of God's redemption and restoration as a mother and a wife. It's just a really feel good story. Helpful. I hope for anyone watching or listening that is struggling with this that maybe you feel seen and maybe for you AA is a little too scary of a step. Like Erica was saying, it feels a little too vulnerable. But her other suggestions of those other groups, maybe that kind of resonates with you and, and seems more possible. So I just hope and encourage you to seek help. You can find some resources in the show notes. If this show has really impacted your life in a positive way, please leave a free 5 star review or become a financial donor of the show. We are funded by a nonprofit so you can leave a tax deductible donation through the link in the show notes. We're on a mission to heal a sick culture. Twice a week new guests come and they bring their own unique remedy. To do that, subscribe to Real Alex Clark on YouTube and follow me on Instagram at realalexclark. New episodes come out every Monday and Thursday, 6pm Pacific, 9pm Eastern. I'm Alex Clark and this is Culture Apothecary.