The Great Fire of London

Summary

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Dan Snow's History Hit

Episode: The Great Fire of London

Date: June 1, 2026
Host: Dan Snow
Guest: Adrian Tinniswood, historian and author of By Permission of Heaven: The Story of the Great Fire of London

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the dramatic story of the Great Fire of London in September 1666. Dan Snow is joined by historian Adrian Tinniswood to discuss how the fire started, why it spread so rapidly, the devastation left in its wake, the city's chaotic response, and the remarkable rebuilding effort that followed. With vivid storytelling and rich historical detail, the discussion explores the fire’s context—coming after the deadly plague—and its transformative effect on London’s trajectory toward becoming a global powerhouse.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Scene: London in the 1660s

• Aftermath of the Plague: London in 1666 was still reeling from the Great Plague the year before, which had extremely high mortality rates and led to significant social upheaval ([04:54]).
  • "It was dreadful. And there was something like a 9 out of 10 mortality rate. If you got the plague, you died basically, certainly early on." — Adrian Tinniswood [04:54]
• Urban Landscape: The city was extremely dense, with timber-framed, closely-packed houses, narrow streets, and a population around 80,000 in "The City" and up to 300,000 in the greater area ([05:38]).
  • "Most of the streets very narrow... on some of the narrower thoroughfares you could lean out of your bedroom window and shake hands with your neighbour across the road." — Adrian Tinniswood [06:05]

Fire as a Daily Threat

• Constant Danger: In an era without electricity, open flames were everywhere, making fires a common hazard ([06:36]).
  • "We're looking at a world that was lit by fire, people were always airing their clothes by putting them in front of an open fire...fires took place all the time in London." — Adrian Tinniswood [06:36]
• Climate Context: The summer of 1666 had been exceptionally hot and dry, creating perfect conditions for disaster ([06:55]).

How the Fire Broke Out

• Origins: The fire began in Thomas Farriner’s bakery on Pudding Lane, exacerbated by a strong gale that arrived that same night ([09:32]).
  • "That night it grew in strength as it moved up through Kent and it toppled chimneys and it lifted thatch and it hit London at about one o'clock on the morning of 2nd September. And just as it hit London, a baker called Thomas Farriner forgot to put his oven out in Pudding Lane." — Adrian Tinniswood [08:55]
• Accident or Fate?: The fire was seen in hindsight as a disaster waiting to happen, but contemporaries viewed it as a fateful accident—“a meeting of three or four different events” ([06:55]).

The First Hours: Spread & Early Response

• Firefighting Limitations: Fire-fighting tools were rudimentary, involving buckets, long poles for demolishing buildings, and sled-like fire engines ([18:06]).
  • "Remember that at this point, the fire hose has not been invented, which means that you've got a kind of brass spout that you can spurt a dribble of water onto a fire, but you've got to get really close to it to do it." — Adrian Tinniswood [18:06]
• Chaos & Breakdown: There was confusion and looting as people prioritized saving their own goods. Order quickly deteriorated, fed by rumors of foreign arson ([18:58]).
  • "Order is breaking down. I think that's the important thing to note. And it's accelerated by the rumor that's going around already by Sunday evening that this is a terrorist attack." — Adrian Tinniswood [19:20]

Infamous Quotations & Leadership Failures

• Mayor Bloodworth’s Misjudgment: The Mayor of London, Thomas Bloodworth, refused to authorize the demolition of properties to create firebreaks, spectacularly underestimating the threat ([13:04]).
  • "There's fire's nothing. A woman could piss this out." — Bloodworth (reported by Adrian Tinniswood) [14:07]
• Delays in Demolition: Fear of destroying property hamstrung early efforts; property owners or landlords weren’t present to grant permission ([13:11]).

Eyewitnesses & Famous Narratives

• Samuel Pepys: The famous diarist provided vivid accounts, including his initial indifference (worried about dinner guests!), his subsequent alarm, and memorable personal details ([14:28], [20:28]).
  • "His maid wakes him up and says that the smoke down on the quays down by the river, it looks as if there's several hundred houses burning... His initial reaction... he's a bit worried that they're not gonna be able to make it. This is his initial reaction to the Great Fire of London." — Adrian Tinniswood [14:31]
  • "He buried his Parmesan cheese, wasn't it? He must have loved that cheese... There's that moment where he's sailing down the Thames... and he sees the pigeons... their wings singed, they drop down into the flames. It's such a memorable image..." — Adrian Tinniswood [20:36]

The Fire’s Peak and Destruction

• St. Paul’s Cathedral Explodes: The burning of St. Paul’s was a spectacular and symbolic moment, exacerbated by the stored paper and books in its crypt ([23:53]).
  • "Flames catch that scaffolding, that timber falls down through the roof of old St. Paul's and the building explodes like a firebomb. It just goes up like a bomb." — Adrian Tinniswood [24:05]
• Scale of Devastation: About 13,200 houses, 400 streets, and five-sixths of the old City of London were destroyed ([25:13]).
  • "One chap writes to his brother in Northumberland and says, it is like our fells, because all you could see was kind of brick chimney stacks. Everything else is flat." — Adrian Tinniswood [25:32]

Social and Political Repercussions

• Few Official Fatalities, Much Trauma: Only ~11 deaths officially recorded, but true numbers likely higher; survivors suffered psychological trauma ([21:07]).
  • "I suspect there were quite a lot more than that...Fairly clearly, she's got post traumatic stress disorder. And I'm sure that a lot of Londoners will have suffered mentally." — Adrian Tinniswood [25:52]
• Scapegoating & Riots: Intense xenophobia led to violence against foreigners. A mentally ill Frenchman, Robert Hubert, was executed for "starting" the fire, despite clear evidence to the contrary ([31:48]).
  • "We've morphed noticed now from the Dutch to the French to the Catholics...But he's apprehended, he's arrested, and he says, yeah, I did it." — Adrian Tinniswood [32:09]

The Rebuilding and Regulatory Response

• Grand Plans, Limited Implementation: Several ambitious proposals were raised (Christopher Wren among them), but most were abandoned due to property rights and political compromises ([26:15]).
  • "Christopher Wren is professor of astronomy...with a plan for redesigning the whole city of London. John Evelyn's just after him... Of the ones that swiped, Christopher Rennes is the best, far and away the most sophisticated." — Adrian Tinniswood [26:37]
• Practicality Triumphs: The city was rebuilt gradually—mainly by private individuals, in a piecemeal fashion. Attempts at wider streets and more fireproof materials were only partially enforced ([28:47]).
  • "Three or four years later...most people ignored the building regulations...It does happen, but it happens over 50, 60, 70 years. It's a very slow thing." — Adrian Tinniswood [29:19]
• St. Paul’s Cathedral Rebuilt: Wren’s masterpiece became London’s greatest building, a symbol of resilience ([30:05]).

The City’s Rise to Global Prominence

• Onward and Upward: Despite the destruction, London’s economic and political importance rebounded, and it rapidly reclaimed and surpassed its old standing ([29:28]).
  • "It's incredible, just incredible that people could get down and do that." — Adrian Tinniswood [30:54]

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Notable Quotes

• On Early Modern Firefighting:
  "Nobody's actually putting the fire out. Everybody's looking for themselves. Everybody's trying to evacuate their own goods. There's looting going on all the way down the north bank of the Thames." — Adrian Tinniswood [18:50]

• On Misplaced Blame:
  "The rumors were spreading faster than the fire." — Adrian Tinniswood [19:51]

• On Trauma and Miracles:
  "In spite of God punishing London, he had shown mercy. And everybody says this, so it's pretty clear, I think there were surprisingly few casualties." — Adrian Tinniswood [21:48]

• On Rebuilding:
  "The astonishing thing is that Londoners did that within three or four years—most housing in London was rebuilt." — Adrian Tinniswood [30:54]

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Memorable Moments & Timestamps

• The Mayor’s infamous comment ([14:07]):
  • "There's fire's nothing. A woman could piss this out."
• Samuel Pepys buries his Parmesan cheese ([20:36])
• St. Paul’s Cathedral erupts in flames ([24:00–25:00])
• Case of Robert Hubert and the scapegoating of foreigners ([31:48])
• Christopher Wren’s plan vs. the reality of London’s rebuilding ([26:25–28:00])

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Episode Structure & Timestamps

| Time | Topic/Segment | |------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:21 | Introduction to the Fire and guest Adrian Tinniswood | | 04:37 | Life in plague-ravaged London, population, and layout | | 06:36 | Daily danger of fire, historical precedent, and climate context | | 08:55 | Sequence of events that led to the fire’s outbreak | | 11:03 | Thomas Farriner’s bakery and the fire’s origins | | 13:04 | Mayor Bloodworth’s leadership and infamous quote | | 14:28 | Pepys’ eyewitness account and initial public response | | 18:06 | Early firefighting, social breakdown, and xenophobic rumors | | 20:28 | Samuel Pepys and the emotional resonance of the event | | 23:53 | St. Paul’s Cathedral’s destruction | | 25:13 | Scale of the city’s devastation; psychological aftermath | | 26:15 | Rebuilding proposals and Christopher Wren | | 28:47 | Building regulations and the reality of reconstruction | | 29:28 | London’s recovery and global rise | | 31:32 | Memorializing and blame; the case of Robert Hubert | | 33:04 | Conclusion and book plug |

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Conclusion

Dan Snow and Adrian Tinniswood present the Great Fire of London as both tragedy and turning point. Through a mix of dark humor, lived horror, and scholarly insight, this episode brings to life the dramatic destruction and rebirth of one of the world’s most iconic cities, complete with lessons on urban resilience, the dangers of misinformation, and the indomitable spirit of its people.

Transcript

[Dan Snow]

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[Adrian Tinniswood]

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[Adrian Tinniswood]

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[Adrian Tinniswood]

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[Dan Snow]

In the early hours of 2nd September, 1666, a small fire broke out Middle Bakery in Pudding Lane, London. Within five days, that fire had destroyed the vast majority of one of the largest cities in Europe, if not the world. It was a catastrophe. The Great Fire of London. Exactly what happened that week in 1666? Well, here to tell you all about it is Adrian Tiniswood. He's a historian, he's a teacher, he's a writer, he's a consultant for National Trust over here in the uk and he's written a book called by permission of the Story of the Great Fire of London. And we're going to get into it, we're going to find out why it happened, how it happened, just how bad the damage was and what it meant for London, which was fascinatingly on the threshold of becoming pretty much the biggest and richest city on earth. So it comes at a remarkable time in London's story. And it's rather impressive that the city goes from being obliterated to a position of global hegemony in the space of a generation. This is a classic episode of Dancer Knows History. We're re sharing with you because I've got some exciting news I want to tell you about. Historyhit has teamed up with Voice Maps. These are so clever, these folks. An audio tour app where you can explore the places around the world where history happened at your own pace with leading historians and guides in your headphones, in your ears, with you on the walk, by the way. Actually, it even works offline. And so this guy, me, the one who's talking right now, is gonna guide you round the streets of London. I've released a guide so you can go to the places where the fire ripped through the old city. So once you've listened to this stellar episode, plan your trip to London this summer and take my tour. All you need to do after booking your flight, train, bus, cycle, whatever it is, is install the VoiceMap app from the App Store or Google Play today or go to VoiceMap me historyhit. That's VoiceMap historyhit. To check out tours from your favorite history hit hosts. Not just me, folks, there are other ones too. But for now, to get a little taste of this extraordinary story, here's our classic episode with Adrian Tiniswood. Enjoy. Adrian, thank you very much for coming on the podcast.

[Adrian Tinniswood]

It's great to be with you, Dan.

[Dan Snow]

You know what, sometimes we feel a bit sorry for ourselves in the modern world, but then you think to yourselves, well, we could be alive in the mid-1660s. I mean, it was a brutal time to be a Londoner. We forget, you know, the great plague the year before the fire of London, that was appalling casualties.

[Adrian Tinniswood]

It was dreadful. And there was something like a 9 out of 10 mortality rate. If you got the plague, you died basically, certainly early on. The bills of mortality, they're dreadful to hear. And of Course, anybody who is anybody cleared out, leaving only the poor and the dedicated, certainly kind of dissenting ministers who hung around and took the place of Anglican clergy who were clearing off to Oxford or to the south coast. Those kind of dissenting ministers really came into their own then. They were the welfare system that looked after the plague victims.

[Dan Snow]

Tell me about the streets of London, even without plague festering in its crowded streets. What did London look like in the mid-1660s and how big was it?

[Adrian Tinniswood]

Yeah, it was small and that's the thing. The City of London itself, what we call the Square Mile, was home to about 80,000 people, what we will think of as Greater London. The suburbs and some of the outlying areas all together had a population of maybe 250, 300,000. It's hard to be precise, of course, that's about the same size as Coventry

[Dan Snow]

today, but packed in, unlike Coventry today, I mean, you're living cheap by chow.

[Adrian Tinniswood]

Most of the street's very narrow. You're living in mainly timber framed, laugh and plaster houses. Typically they're jetted out across streets so that on some of the narrower thoroughfares you could lean out of your bedroom window and shake hands with your neighbour across the road. The sky is blotted out by these houses.

[Dan Snow]

And does that mean that fires are your sort of particular threat in these cities? I mean, there was a huge fire, isn't it the forgotten fire of London in the 13th century? I think it is. When a huge chunk of the city was burnt, there were fires all the time.

[Adrian Tinniswood]

Dan, if you think we're looking at a world that was lit by fire, people were always airing their clothes by putting them in front of an open fire. They were looking for a chamber pot with a lighted candle under the bed. And fires took place all the time in London, all the time.

[Dan Snow]

Was it a disaster waiting to happen then?

[Adrian Tinniswood]

Yeah, but. Well, I say yes. I mean, in retrospect, yes, of course it was at the time. It was an accident, it was a confluence. It was a meeting of three or four different events that any one of them wouldn't have done the harm they did. The August 1666 was hot. It was dry. There'd been a drought all summer, so the buildings were tinder dry. Then there's this general sense of foreboding as well. It's weird that there have been rumors about Cromwellian Republicans mounting a coup. There was talk about a mysterious character called the Precious man who was mobilizing a militia to march on London. There was talk about a Messiah from the East, a man called Zabatah Levi, who was gathering followers and was marching on Europe. People were twitchy, but the big thing that was twitching people on the afternoon of September 2, 1666, the big thing was the war. We were at war. And that's what mattered most. We were at war with the Dutch. The war had been going quite well, but that particular afternoon, what everybody was talking about was the fact that a huge English fleet, commanded by Prince Rupert and General Monk, was converging on the Dutch off Boulogne, and they were going to whoop them. They were going to absolutely whoop em. That's what everybody cared about. That's what everyone was talking about in the streets. And it was as that fleet moved in on the Dutch that a wind blew up in the Channel. Just a breeze. And that breeze grew stronger and stronger, and as the English engaged with the Dutch, all hell broke loose. A gale hit both fleets. Masts were blown over, sails were blown out, and both fleets ran for home. There was no battle, they just ran for home. They were crashing into each other. They were colliding, they were sinking. The English fleet ran for the Isle of Wight to lick its wounds. But the point about all this, if you're wondering what on earth I'm talking about, well, this has got to do with the Great Fire of London. The point about that is that that afternoon and evening, that gale moved up into Kent from a channel. And that night it grew in strength as it moved up through Kent and it toppled chimneys and it lifted thatch and it hit London at about one o' clock on the morning of 2nd September. And just as it hit London, a baker called Thomas Farriner forgot to put his oven out in Pudding Lane. If those two things hadn't happened, if Farriner hadn't forgot to put his oven out, if that gale hadn't hit, there would be no fire of London.

[Dan Snow]

That is a beautiful description of what happened. But let me just before we go on here, Adrian, you never need to apologise to me to give descriptions of what's happening in maritime history. Let's be very clear about that. Longtime listeners of this show will know that 17th century naval history is something that we could talk about all day. Before we talk about Thomas Farriner and the fight you mentioned, it hadn't rained all summer. There was a drought. I'm very interested in the fact that I was reading Geoffrey Parker's magnificent, gigantic book about the 17th century climate catastrophe across the planet, and he points out that many other fires weren't There. There was great fire in what is now Tokyo that is thought to have killed 100,000 people in 1657, I think it was. So there's a climate change story, There's a climate breakdown story here as well. Yeah.

[Adrian Tinniswood]

I mean, there were big fires, not only in London you mentioned, but there were big fires all over England. I mean, Dorchester burned down in the early 17th century, if I remember right. Northampton burned down in the 1670s. I think, to go back to what I was saying earlier, it was a world lit by fire, and that meant that fires broke out all the time. Most of the time they weren't that serious, but occasionally they were. And there may be a climate story, a climate change story to talk about here, but I'm not sure that we can associate climate change with the fact that you've got an entire society that depends on open flame. You know, accidents happen.

[Dan Snow]

So Thomas Farriner, he's a baker, embers just popped out of his oven, did they, and ignited what was nearby?

[Adrian Tinniswood]

Well, he always saw it wasn't his fault, but if I just accidentally burned down the second largest city in Christendom, I'd probably say it wasn't my fault either. What seems to have happened, what we know, is that in the early hours of the 2nd of September, that Sunday morning, Farriner's manservant woke him up, came upstairs and said, there's smoke coming up from the basement, which is where the ovens were. And Farriner and his daughter Hannah and the manservant tried to get downstairs and there was smoke. They couldn't get down to the ground floor, so they clambered out of a bedroom window and into their neighbour's bedchamber, which must have been quite a shock for their neighbour at 2 o' clock in the morning. Their maidservant had a fear of heights, so the story goes, and she wouldn't jump, she wouldn't walk out onto the roof. She died. She died of, presumably, smoke inhalation. She was the first casualty of the fire of London. They raised the alarm and it's not a big deal at this point. It's not a big deal. Certain things happened when a fire broke out. Neighbors would evacuate their houses. Usually the parish wardens would be called. You would get firefighting equipment, most of it kept in the local church. And most effective firefighting equipment was actually long poles with hooks on the end for pulling down thatch and for pulling down houses, in fact, to form firebreaks. So everybody kind of milled around. The point is, though, that as they're milling around in Pudding Lane as they're trying to put the fire out. This gale is blowing and it's blowing from the east, it's blowing westward and it's fanning the flames. As it fans those flames, some of the thatch lifts, those embers fly into the sky and they land in streets next door. Famously, a glowing ember landed in the stable yard of an inn on Fish Street Hill and ignited the straw that was then blown up into the air and spread. So the fire's spreading all the time. The gale is relentless. I mean, this gale will blow for three days. And it's the gale which causes the fire of London now, I think.

[Dan Snow]

So tell me about the Mayor of London. He wasn't super concerned, was he?

[Adrian Tinniswood]

Poor old Thomas Bloodworth. Thomas Bloodworth was one of the unluckiest London mayors, I think, in that he'd come into office in the middle of the plague. So there was no kind of Lord May show, there was no sort of big fuss, there was no pageant. He was sworn in at a barber shop around the back of the Tower of London. It was all a bit of a frost for him. And then just as he comes to the end of his year of office, he's called out two o' clock in the morning on this Sunday morning and told there's a fire because people are getting a bit anxious because the fire is starting to spread and they're starting to worry that maybe we need to do something dramatic, we need to start demolishing houses. So they call them out. And Bloodworth, who's not a great man, bless him, he's not a great man, he says he can't authorize the pulling down of houses because he needs the permission of their owners. And because the vast majority of property in London is rented, the landlords could be anywhere. So he says, no, we can't demolish houses even though the fire is spreading. And one of the wardens says to him, well, look, you know, this is getting serious. And Bloodworth memorably, famously, brilliantly says, there's fire's nothing. A woman could piss this out. And he went back to bed and a place in the history books.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah, that's it, that's it. He's in there forever. So what stage do we think it started? Literally? What time did it start?

[Adrian Tinniswood]

We know it started in the early hours of the morning of Sunday 2nd September.

[Dan Snow]

And by what stage is it really a very serious situation?

[Adrian Tinniswood]

Well, on that Sunday morning, Samuel Pepys, who's living a few streets Away in Seething Lane. He's living to the east of the forest, east of Pudding Lane. His maid wakes him up and says that the smoke down on the quays down by the river, it looks as if there's several hundred houses burning. And Samuel is quite anxious about this because he's got people coming for dinner and he's a bit worried that they're not gonna be able to make it. This is his initial reaction to the Great Fire of London. So he trots down to have a look. In fact, he goes up to the Tower. He's friendly with the constable of the Tower of London. So he goes up to the top of the Tower of London and he sees the fire is spreading along the wharves and quays of London and where you've got timber and tar and flax all piled up, the flames are moving along. They're being pushed westward by this gale all the time, and they're moving steadily along the streets and wharves by the Thames. So Samuel realizes that this is going to be quite serious. He gets in a boat and he sails up to Whitehall to tell the King. The King offers to send his lifeguards. There's no standing army at this time, but he's got lifeguards and he offers to send basically military help. Pepys goes back into town. He finds Thomas Bloodworth, who's got up again by this point and who is now running up and down Cheapside with a handkerchief on his head saying, oh, Lord, what shall I do? What shall I do? So Pepys says, well, look, the King has offered to send in the troops effectively, and Bloober says, oh, we can't have that. It's only a few years since General Monck has broken down the gates of the city and marched into the City of London. So there's an understandable fear of military might, if you like, in the City of London. But Bloodworth again makes this massively wrong decision. He says, we can handle this. We don't need the King's troops. And then he goes back home. Poor old Thomas, eh? You just can't get it right.

[Dan Snow]

You're listening to Dan, so knows history here. There's more to come.

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[Dan Snow]

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[Dan Snow]

They did need the king's troops, didn't they? What are the other. I mean, there were bucket chains. What other options they have?

[Adrian Tinniswood]

Yeah, there were bucket chains. There were a couple of fire engines in the city. They're not kind of bright red with bells on top. They're massive sleds with cisterns on top. And remember that at this point, the fire hose has not been invented, which means that you've got a kind of brass spout that you can spurt a dribble of water onto a fire, but you've got to get really close to it to do it. And it's not a good idea to get that close to a fire. But anyway, there's a fire engine is bored down from Clerkenwell. It's dragged down by men who then move it to the bottom of Pudding Lane to the riverbank to fill up the cistern so they can start spurting water at the fire. They get too close to the bank, the fire engine slides into the Thames and sails off down the river and no one ever sees it again. The important point about these initial stages, Dan, is that nobody's actually putting the fire out. Everybody's looking for themselves. Everybody's trying to evacuate their own goods. There's looting going on all the way down the north bank of the Thames. A merchant called Towswell, who's got a house just to the east of Pudding Lane near Bishopsgate, he rushes out and finds some men and gives them money to evacuate his goods to safety. And they evacuate his goods to safety. He never sees them again. Order is breaking down. I think that's the important thing to note. And it's accelerated by the rumor that's going around already by Sunday evening that this is a terrorist attack. This is an attack by the Dutch. They're setting fire to the city and it's a prelude to an invasion. This isn't as crazy as it sounds. A few weeks before this, a force of English marines under the flamboyant Sir Robert Holmes, who used to wear a gold lace suit and carry a monkey on his shoulder, had burned 150 Dutch merchant ships and set fire to the town of Westerschellen, Dutch town in what was called Robert Holmes Bonfire. And everybody cheered. Everyone thought this was great. We were burning out the Dutch. So it was natural for them to think, crikey, is happening to us. Now they're getting their own back. Anyone who looked foreign was beaten up in the streets. They tried to lynch people. The rumors were spreading faster than the fire. Thomas Farriner's bakery suddenly became a Dutch baker who'd purposely burned his house. People were seen throwing firebombs through windows. None of it was true. But the xenophobia and the fear just spread right through the city.

[Dan Snow]

When I go in to give talks at schools about the Great Fire of London, the one thing kids always remember is Samuel Pepys burying his cheese.

[Adrian Tinniswood]

I know, I know.

[Dan Snow]

Tell me about that.

[Adrian Tinniswood]

Well, I mean, I think you've said it. He buried his Parmesan cheese, wasn't it? He must have loved that cheese. Pepys is the best of all the narratives about the fire. His is the most vivid. But there's that moment where he's sailing down the Thames to get to Whitehall and he sees the pigeons that Londoners keep for food fluttering above their homes, their wings singed, they drop down into the flames. It's such a memorable image that these birds just fluttering and fluttering and then dying.

[Dan Snow]

Were many people dying?

[Adrian Tinniswood]

It's a really good question and I'm going to say I don't know. The fire, although it spread inexorably, it didn't spread that fast. It spread maybe 30 yards an hour, 30 meters an hour or so. It wasn't the flash. People were caught. We know of. I think there are 11 fatalities that we know of. I suspect there were quite a lot more than that. People who were just caught when fire broke out in front of them and behind them, as was happening in the streets of London. So people were caught? I would guess maybe 40 or 50. What we do know is that consistently in the aftermath of the fire, people were thanking God that there were so few casualties. The fire was seen as punishment, and it depended on whose side you're on. It was either punishment because we had killed the King Charles I, or it was God's punishment because the good old cause, the commonwealth, we'd backed off. It depends which side you're on, really, as to who God was punishing. But in spite of God punishing London, he had shown mercy. And everybody says this, so it's pretty clear, I think there were surprisingly few casualties.

[Dan Snow]

Speaking of the king, his slightly used son, the Duke of Monmouth, has got better things to do. But Charles second's in there getting him involved, isn't he?

[Adrian Tinniswood]

Well, yes and no. I mean, he is in there getting involved. He's getting involved in a fairly kind of airy fairy way. He's riding around on his horse with a saddlebag full of coins, kind of flinging them at people and urging them to help with the fire. In fact, it's his brother, it's James, Duke of York, the future James II of England, who is the absolute hero. Don't get me wrong. James, Duke of York, as king, as James ii, he has the political acumen of a chicken. He's useless as a king.

[Dan Snow]

We can all agree on that.

[Adrian Tinniswood]

Yeah, we can do that, can't we? We can do that. But as a man, he was a hero. I mean, this is a guy who, the previous year, as Lord Haber of the Fleet, had gone into battle against the Dutch, had watched a round of chain shot. As he was standing on the deck with all his senior officers around, a chain shot hit the group. He was miraculously almost unhurt. His friends exploded around him. The only damage that James, Duke of York had was a cut on his forearm from a skull splinter from his best friend. And he didn't bat an eye, he didn't blink. I mean, this guy was a really brave man. And he's the fellow who, with his lifeguards, rides down into the city and starts organizing proper fire prevention. They organize cordons, they start to pull down houses, they evacuate whole streets. And he gets off his horse, he's not just kind of chucking money around. He gets off his horse, he gets his shirt off and he starts throwing buckets of sand and water at it with the best of them. He's an amazing man in the fire. Shame it didn't last, but he was a good man. A good man.

[Dan Snow]

And which day is the peak of the fire? Is it the 4th of September?

[Adrian Tinniswood]

It's the Tuesday. Yeah. And that evening, the Royal Exchange is gone. Livery halls have gone a lot of the city. But that evening, young Thomas Tanswell, a schoolboy at Westminster. He looks up into the city, he looks across Lambeth Marsh and he sees St. Paul's Cathedral, which is London. This is the spiritual centre of the city, in fact, of the country in many ways. And he sees flames start to lick around St. Paul's Cathedral. St. Paul's is being repaired. The scaffolding all over the roof. Flames catch that scaffolding, that timber. The timber falls down through the roof of old St. Paul's and the building explodes like a firebomb. It just goes up like a bomb. That explosion is made much worse because the printers and stationers around Paternoster row, around Old St. Paul's St. Faith's in the basement of St. Paul's in the crypt is their parish church. And they decided quite early on that Nothing would harm St. Paul's so they put all of their paper, all of their books, all of their pamphlets, they stacked them up for safety in the crypt of St. Paul's and when those timbers fell down into St. Paul's and then fell through the floor and into the crypt, all of that paper went up and St. Paul's just blew up, basically.

[Dan Snow]

What are we talking about in the city? Is it half destroyed? What's the final reckoning?

[Adrian Tinniswood]

Well, the monument says, doesn't it? 13,200 houses, 400 streets and courts, most of the livery halls. It's about five sixths of the city of London goes, wow. One chap writes to his brother in Northumberland and says, it is like our fells, because all you could see was kind of brick chimney stacks. Everything else is flat. It looked like the fells, it didn't look like the city. He said, it's incredible, the damage and the lasting damage. What we don't know so much is the damage that it caused to people, the psychological damage. So, I mean, for example, for years afterwards, Pepys was having nightmares of fire and falling after the fire, Elizabeth, his wife, starts to lose her hair and she gets stomach upsets. Fairly clearly, she's got post traumatic stress disorder. And I'm sure that a lot of Londoners will have suffered mentally. Their mental health will have been really severely damaged by this.

[Dan Snow]

What about the rebirth of the city? You mentioned those fells. What were the various competing ideas to recreate London?

[Adrian Tinniswood]

We know of half a dozen or so plans to rebuild London, some more sophisticated than others. I mean, some of the less sophisticated ones involved just drawing a checkerboard and saying, let's make London a checkerboard, within days of the fire. Christopher Wren, who is Christopher Wren, isn't an architect at this point. Christopher Wren is professor of astronomy at Oxford. But he's mated with the King and he's in the King's private chambers with a plan for redesigning the whole city of London. John Evelyn's just after him. I'm sure every country gentleman had a go at doing a plan to rebuild London. Of the ones that swiped, Christopher Rennes is the best, far and away the most sophisticated.

[Dan Snow]

And yet, why did that not get put into action?

[Adrian Tinniswood]

It came close, actually. It came very close. But the problem was that the King, quite early on, gave an undertaking that nobody would lose their homes or their land as a result of the fire. And Wren's rebuilding would have involved massive compulsory purchase. He's driving boulevards basically right through the center of the city. It would also have taken a very long time. Whereas the city authorities would rather just say to everybody, go ahead and build your house, go ahead and rebuild it. Never got the sufficient backing from the city authorities. If you want to see Wrens London, not quite the same, but pretty close, go to Washington. Because 100 years later, Jefferson and Pierre L', enfant, when they were laying out the federal city on the banks of the Potomac, they took a published version of Wren's plan for London and remade that. So you'll see Ren's London in Washington

[Dan Snow]

D.C. i love Washington, but I love London too, so maybe it's nice to have both.

[Adrian Tinniswood]

One thing I will say is that I am directionally challenged. I'm confessing this now. I'm hopeless. The only two cities I can navigate around are New York, because everything's numbered. So I can do that. The avenues on the cross street are numbered and I can still find my way around the city of London because I know London in 1666 like the back of my hand. And it's still there. I tell you, it is still there. In spite of all the changes, you can recognise virtually every street and every court and every alley.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah, that's certainly true. If you know where Fleet street is, you're doing all right. But obviously there were changes. What regulatory changes were introduced.

[Adrian Tinniswood]

There were several rebuilding acts, which you look at the acts and it's all fairly clear that streets have to be 30ft, 40ft, 50ft wide, depending on the status of the street. All buildings have to be built of brick or stone, or at least have a brick or stone facade. These fire prevention measures are put in place quite early on. Three or four years later, after the fire, when you actually look at what happened, most people ignored the building regulations the streets are still 20ft wide. The houses are still going up. Made of timber with thatch. You don't get that miraculous transformation that the old textbooks used to tell you about. It does happen, but it happens over 50, 60, 70 years. It's a very slow thing.

[Dan Snow]

Because it's always fascinating to me that London, having literally exploded, it then explodes figuratively into the most important city and port on earth. What's the relationship there, if any, between this fire and this extraordinary rebirth and rise to becoming probably the richest city on the planet?

[Adrian Tinniswood]

Well, there's two things, I think. I mean, one is that it was the most important city in England before the fire. And one of the reasons for the city authorities pressing ahead with a piecemeal rebuild is that they're scared people won't come back. You know, already places like Bristol are becoming important ports in the aftermath of the fire. One of the first buildings they put back up as a customs house because they want to start getting in revenues from London as a port. So it's important beforehand. I think the rebuilding is a piecemeal affair. I mean, now we look and we can see the important. I use that term very loosely, but I also use that term heartfelt in that I think St. Paul's Cathedral, rebuilt by Christopher Wren, is the greatest building in the world. I make no bones about that. So you've got Wren, St Paul's you've got the City Church, 56 City Churches. You've got the rebuilding of the livery company halls. Those are important, and they add an enormous status to London. But of course, I mean, St. Paul's takes 50 years to rebuild. You know, it's not them. Overnight, the city churches are still being rebuilt 30, 40, 50 years later. What intrigues me is the houses. You imagine a world where your home is your business, where you rent it, you don't own it, and it burns down. So you've got nowhere to live. You've got no means of making a living. And there is a clause in your tenancy agreement saying if the property is damaged, it's up to you to repair it. No insurance. And the astonishing thing is that Londoners did that within three or four years, most housing in London was rebuilt. It's incredible, just incredible that people could get down and do that.

[Dan Snow]

It is incredible. In terms of the monuments, in terms of memorializing the fire, we still have the great monument. Took my kids up there the other day, in fact, and on it, it blames the hand of God, a great wind and a very dry season. There used to be Something else on there as well. Tell us what they blamed it on back in the day.

[Adrian Tinniswood]

This is the rage to blame, which gave rise to the rioting, to the beatings up of foreigners. People were convinced long afterwards that it was a terrorist attack. There was a plaque put up which said, here, by permission of Heaven, hell broke loose on this Protestant city through the malice of barbarous papists whose fires are not yet quenched. We've morphed noticed now from the Dutch to the French to the Catholics. I mean, remember, somebody was hanged for starting the Fire of London. Poor old Robert Huber, who was bonkers, insisted that he had started the fire. He'd not even been in London when the fire began, but he was like a lot of foreigners. He was apprehended as he was trying to leave the country just after the fire. Foreigners trying to leave the country because it wasn't a safe place for them to be. But he's apprehended, he's arrested, and he says, yeah, I did it. I put a firebomb in Thomas Parinder's bakery in Pudding Lane. And he takes the authorities to Pudding Lane, which is now flat, and says, this is where the house was. This is where I put the firebomb in. I started the Fire of London. And everybody knew he didn't do it, but they couldn't persuade him to retract his confession, so they hanged him at Tyburn.

[Dan Snow]

Crikey. Well, Adrian, what an extraordinary story. Thank you very much. Coming on, telling us about it, what is your book called?

[Adrian Tinniswood]

By Permission of Heaven, the Story of the Great Fire of London.

[Dan Snow]

Adrian Tilliswood, thank you very much for coming on.

[Adrian Tinniswood]

Great to talk to you. Thanks a lot, Dan.

[Dan Snow]

Well, that's it, folks. Thank you very much for listening. And as I say, you can actually live this history yourself. You can hit the mean streets. You can see where the fire tore through London. You can see its effect because there aren't many medieval buildings left in that part of town. I've walked those streets many times myself. The city, the kind of old city of London, the one built on the Roman footprint, is one of the most enchanting place in the world. And you can follow the little crooked alleyways. You can go past old pubs and cemeteries jumbled in together among the Victorian counting houses. You can literally see how that fire changed the city forever. It's a very special place. And remember, you can now explore it with voice maps with my tour on the Great Fire of London. It'll tell you everything you need to know. As you walk. And the clever thing is it uses your location to start the next part of the story. So you just leave your phone in your pocket as you explore, and I keep popping up in the relevant place to tell you what's going on. It's amazing technology, eh? Download the Voice Map app from the App Store or Google Play today or go to VoiceMap Me Historyhit. That's VoiceMap MeHistoryhit to check out tours from your favorite history hit hosts. See you next time folks.

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[Dan Snow]

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