Edward VIII & Wallis Simpson: A Royal Scandal

Summary

Dan Snow's History Hit: "Edward VIII & Wallis Simpson: A Royal Scandal" Episode Date: March 5, 2026
Guest: Professor Kate Williams

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles the tumultuous love story between King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson, the American divorcee for whom Edward abdicated the British throne in 1936. Host Dan Snow and historian Professor Kate Williams dig deep into the personal, social, and constitutional complexities that made this one of the most shocking scandals in modern royal history. Along the way, they explore Edward VIII’s upbringing, his reputation as a modern prince, the intricacies of his relationships, and the far-reaching consequences of his abdication—including the couple’s later encounter with Nazi Germany and exile from the royal family.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Promise and Reality of Edward VIII

• Edward VIII, charismatic and popular as Prince of Wales, was viewed as the royal figure poised to lead Britain into a modern, technological age.
  • "He was the king for the modern age, just as you say, seen as an early adopter of technology…" — Professor Kate Williams [04:36]
• Despite this promise, Edward’s personal life quickly came into conflict with the expectations of monarchy and public service.
• His upbringing was strict and emotionally distant. Both of his parents, George V and Queen Mary, were reserved and traditional, providing little affection.
  • "They have some rather cruel nannies who pinch them to make them cry, which will annoy their parents… he really throws himself into the world of a prince." — Professor Kate Williams [05:45]

Edward’s Social Life and Romantic Preferences

• From his youth, Edward preferred older, married women, particularly American socialites—breaking with the royal custom of marrying young, aristocratic, preferably royal, virgins.
  • "He wants to date the older married woman. And in that, he's taking after Grandpa. Grandpa Edward VII… But increasingly he doesn't necessarily choose the married ladies of the British aristocracy… He likes the American lady." — Professor Kate Williams [09:42–10:35]
• Wallis Simpson, initially considered plain and unremarkable compared to other women in Edward’s circle, soon captivated him with her wit and irreverence.

The Meeting and Early Relationship with Wallis Simpson

• Edward met Wallis in 1931, through shared social connections in London’s high society.
• Wallis was twice married and had lived adventurously, including a period in China, which later fueled rumors and slander about her.
  • "Recent scholarship has actually gone into Wallis in China and said, no, there isn't any idea… that she'd been a sex work there and she'd learned techniques there. Mysterious, mysterious. So it's all very Orientalist, isn't it?" — Professor Kate Williams [15:05]
• The relationship became serious in 1934, after Wallis was tasked, somewhat dismissively, with keeping Edward entertained during another mistress’s absence. She quickly became the central figure in his life, to the exclusion of all others.
  • "She really gets very friendly with the in-crowd around the Prince of Wales." — Professor Kate Williams [14:56]

The Path to Crisis: Love, Divorce, and Abdication

• In 1936, Edward’s father, George V, died, and Edward became king. Wallis’s divorce from Ernest Simpson initiated a constitutional crisis.
• The British government, particularly Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin, was adamantly opposed to Edward marrying Wallis due to her status as a twice-divorced woman—unacceptable for the Supreme Governor of the Church of England.
  • "The problem is, is that he is head of the Church of England and she has two husbands still living. Perhaps if they'd been dead, it might have been a different matter. But she is twice divorced. She cannot marry a divorcee." — Professor Kate Williams [26:51]
• A "morganatic marriage" (in which Wallis would be Edward’s wife but not queen) was proposed but rejected by both the government and the Dominions.
• Wallis, feeling the pressure and vehement public scrutiny, reportedly tried to distance herself from Edward, but he was determined.
• Ultimately, Edward chose to abdicate in December 1936, making way for his brother, George VI.
  • "He has this vision of what if he abdicates? Then he can push away with all this boring ribbon cutting and all the boring jobs of being King. He can marry Wallis and he can be that glamorous Prince of Wales again." — Professor Kate Williams [30:34–31:28]

Notable Quote:

"The scandal reshaped the monarchy and made public the tensions between royal duty and personal desire, something that we still see today."
— Dan Snow [02:28]

Exile, Nazi Germany, and the Fallout

• After the abdication, Edward and Wallis married in France. The royal family and the government refused to allow them to remain in Britain; they lived in exile.
• Their 1937 visit to Nazi Germany and personal meeting with Hitler remains one of the most controversial aspects of their post-abdication life.
  • "It is very clear that certainly in the 1930s... he and Wallis go to Germany and they meet Goebbels and they meet Goering and then he meets up with Hitler, has a private meeting with Hitler... He loves what he gets in Germany. They treat him like a king, they treat Wallis like a queen. And that is very important to him." — Professor Kate Williams [34:58]
• Allegations of espionage and Nazi sympathy have long swirled around the couple. Kate Williams notes the lack of solid evidence Wallis was involved with Nazis or served as a spy, though both she and Edward enjoyed the privileges the Nazis afforded them.
• The British government later sent Edward as Governor to the Bahamas, mainly to keep him—and the risk he represented—far from Europe.

Later Years and Legacy

• After World War II, Edward and Wallis remained in exile in France. They were largely ostracized by the royal family, though partial reconciliation occurred in the 1960s.
• Their childlessness eliminated the risk of a "king over the water" destabilizing the succession.
  • "If they had a child, that child would always be there, popping up, popping up, and could be a possible pretender." — Professor Kate Williams [42:04]
• Wallis outlived Edward and died in 1986; the couple’s legacy remains deeply polarizing.

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Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• On Edward’s romantic preferences:
  "He likes a married lady. But increasingly he doesn't necessarily choose the married ladies of the British aristocracy... He likes these glamorous, fun, rich Americans..."
  — Professor Kate Williams [10:35]

• On Wallis’s wit:
  "Apparently his chat up line to Wallis Simpson is, ‘I hear you've got good central heating in America.’ And she says... ‘Everyone asks me about central heating, I don't want to talk anymore about central heating. Find something better.’"
  — Professor Kate Williams [10:51]

• On public perceptions and propaganda:
  "I've just realised that I bought into the British propaganda about him that he was a complete ne'er do well, but actually that shows enormous taste... he likes sassy, intelligent, opinionated older American women."
  — Dan Snow [11:32]

• On the constitutional crisis:
  "He says he wants her to be Empress of India. And the whole bag of tricks. I mean, that's why the Empire is a bag of tricks."
  — Professor Kate Williams [29:13]

• On Nazi sympathies:
  "Certainly there is absolutely no doubt that when she and Edward went to Nazi Germany, they appreciated the welcome they got."
  — Professor Kate Williams [38:38]

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Segment Timestamps

• [03:51] — Dan introduces Professor Kate Williams & sets the scene
• [04:01] – [08:10] — Edward’s popularity, upbringing, and modern image
• [08:10] – [12:50] — Romantic life, American socialites, and preference for older women
• [13:20] – [16:43] — Early days of Edward and Wallis, Wallis’s background
• [16:43] – [18:14] — Wallis’s relations to Edward’s other lovers, their growing bond, and British perceptions
• [22:49] – [26:51] — Edward’s accession, Wallis’s divorce, and the constitutional crisis
• [27:08] – [31:28] — Public exposure and abdication drama
• [31:28] – [33:07] — Exile, loss of royal privileges, and immediate aftermath
• [34:39] – [39:16] — Nazi Germany, allegations of treason, and British efforts to manage the scandal
• [39:52] – [41:56] — Wartime exile in the Bahamas, Wallis’s attempts at war work, and post-war life
• [41:56] – [43:04] — Relationship with royal family, death, and the resolution of the Windsor saga

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Conclusion

Dan Snow and Professor Kate Williams deliver a spirited, incisive discussion of the scandal that upended the British monarchy. Their exploration reveals not only the personal tragedies and ambitions behind headline-grabbing events, but also how issues of love, duty, reputation, and modernity have shaped royal and national history—a tension, as Dan notes, that still plays out today.

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Recommended Reading & References:

• Anne Seba, That Woman (on Wallis Simpson)
• Andrew Lownie, Traitor King (on Edward VIII post-abdication)

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For further episodes, subscribe to Dan Snow's History Hit and explore the history that shapes the present.

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Transcript

[Dan Snow]

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[Dan Snow]

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[Professor Kate Williams]

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[Professor Kate Williams]

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[Professor Kate Williams]

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[Professor Kate Williams]

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[Dan Snow]

Promote your business with podcast ads on Acast. Get started at go.acast.com advertise. No royal scandal has rocked Britain quite like this one. Well, unless you include Richard III possibly murdering his nephews. Or, well, the time John starved his nephew to death. Or that other when Henry II's children all hooked up with the French king and tried to pose that. Well, okay, no royal scandal in the modern era has rocked Britain quite like this one. Well, unless you don't particularly believe a pizza express in Woking is a valid alibi. But anyway, it's one of the greatest scandals in the history of the modern monarchy. Okay? A member of the monarchy defies expectation and family takes on social convention and marries a divorced American woman. The couple faced a brutal media storm. They're exiled from their family, they're chased out of their country, and they reinvent themselves with other media projects to survive. I am, of course, talking about the marriage between Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson, the American socialite for whom he abdicated the British Crown in December. 1936, he chose love over duty and caused not just a familial riff, but a constitutional crisis because he was head of the Church of England, which was against remarriage after divorce, and she had been divorced twice. His choice Unacceptable. To the old fogies in the British government and many people within the British public, it was unprecedented. The scandal reshaped the monarchy and made public the tensions between royal duty and personal desire, something that we still see today. So to explore this infamous episode in the monarchy's recent history, I'm joined by the wonderful Professor Kate Williams, who hosts the excellent Kings, Queens and Dastardly Things podcasts. This is Dan Snow's history and the story of the scandal that rocked the royal family. T minus 10.

[Professor Kate Williams]

Atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima. God save the king. No black white unity till they disperse them Black unity. Never to go to war with one another again. And liftoff. And the shuttle has cleared the tower.

[Dan Snow]

Kate Williams, great to have you on the podcast.

[Professor Kate Williams]

Good to see you, Dan.

[Dan Snow]

Oh, it's good to see you. This is one of the great stories. Give us a sense of just how. The Prince of Wales was a pretty cool character, wasn't he?

[Professor Kate Williams]

The Prince of Wales was popular. He was loved. When he came to the throne, there was a lot of optimism about what a great king he might be. Of course, he'd had this investiture in 1911 as Prince of Wales to show off. He was loyal to Wales and going to be a marvellous king. Best king ever. Not quite that story.

[Dan Snow]

No. It all goes wrong pretty quick. But he has movie star looks. His dad, George V, not the most charismatic guy in the world. So is there a sense he could be a king for this new age where kings were able to broadcast across the empire? There were film cameras, there was radio broadcast. He should have been the right man in the right place.

[Professor Kate Williams]

He was the king for the modern age, just as you say, seen as an early adopter of technology. George V was popular, but he was very much seen as a stolid old person who pretty much belonged in the Victorian era. But then we have this young, exciting, vibrant person who's going to lead the country into this exciting new technical age. We saw so many incredible inventions during the 1920s and 1930s. We see the growth of the airplane, we see medications developed, we see building technologies, all these new technologies. The car is becoming dominant, and Edward seems like just the king to lead Britain into future dominance.

[Dan Snow]

So what's okay, then? What's the reality? Cause as we know, with royal families, there can Be a little bit of a gap between what the public sees and what the reality is. Tell me about him growing up. Family, brothers, dad and mum. What is his situation?

[Professor Kate Williams]

Edward is born in 1894 and he's the eldest son of George and Mary. And of course, that means he's got his lineage right back to Queen Victoria. His grandfather is Edward vii. His great grandmother is Queen Victoria.

[Dan Snow]

She'd have bounced him on her lap. She was still alive.

[Professor Kate Williams]

She was. Didn't die till 1901. So he would have met Queen Victoria and he would have known her as a small boy. So he really has all the royal blood, all the royal glamour. He's there to take the throne. He's Mr. Popular. They have quite a difficult childhood. I think George V and Queen Mary aren't the most, we might say, modern loving of parents. It's a very strict upbringing. They have some rather cruel nannies who pinch them to make them cry, which will annoy their parents. But actually, you know, when he becomes a young man, he really throws himself into the world of a prince. And as we've seen with so many princes before the Prince of Wales, Edward vii, was a glamorous man about town, and the sons of George iii, they spent every little penny they could on being on fast carriages and women and diamonds. Edward comes into this role of Prince of Wales and he's seen as a real glamour boy now. But what he also wants, which is very significant, is he does want to go to war with the other young men. He really wants to fight with the other young men. And that's denied, really, because he would be too much of a kidnap risk to too much of a security risk.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah. So he wants to go through the trenches. His brother goes and fights the navy. His brother's at the Battle of Jutland, the future George the Sixth. So he. Well, he feels a bit insecure about that. He's not allowed to go and get involved.

[Professor Kate Williams]

Yes, he tours and sees the suffering firsthand, but he's not allowed to be part of it.

[Dan Snow]

Okay, so he's not happy about that. And as Prince of Wales, is he doing those kind of photo calls? He's visiting the troops on the front line. What's his role through the 20s and 30s?

[Professor Kate Williams]

Prince of Wales, his role is one of royal visits. And when he comes, he's so popular. And there is this thought, this thinking, that he sees more of the suffering of the working class. Because, of course, we see, post in 1926, the General Strike, just before the birth of his niece, Elizabeth ii, the General strike and the suffering of the working classes. The working classes who fought so hard in World War I, they're now saying, what do we get back? So it is generally thought that he is someone who hears the working man. He understands working man. It's famously said that when he's touring and sees poverty, he says something must be done. So there are great hopes that he's not just a modern, technical, advanced king, he's also a very intelligent king, very handsome movie star looks, as you say, but also that he's the kind of king that's going to give something that help the working classes and really pay them back for this huge sacrifice they made in World War I.

[Dan Snow]

Is there something modern about the way that he, his mum had been a European princess? You're coming off a period where monarchs are just. And heirs to the throne are expected to marry European royalty. Is he expected to do that? What's going on with his love life? Is his dad trying to hook him up with some German princess?

[Professor Kate Williams]

Edward really is quite a modern man. And I think the idea is he's going to be allowed to make his own choice. He's going to be allowed to make his own choice among the British aristocracy, just as George VI does. The future George vi, when he marries Elizabeth Bowes Lyon. So I think that's going to be the vision that he's going to make this kind of alliance. Because Post World War I, the idea of making a German alliance is going to be.

[Dan Snow]

Well, there aren't many royals left.

[Professor Kate Williams]

There aren't many royals left. You can't have the Catholic ones. Most of the royals are dead. And the other ones that are still there are seen as the enemies. So the idea that Queen Victoria had that marrying all her children, grandchildren and great grandchildren into the royal families of Europe was going to create lasting peace, had been shattered by World War I.

[Dan Snow]

Quite the opposite.

[Professor Kate Williams]

So the idea. Yes, quite the opposite. Quite the opposite actually made it worse. So the cousins war. So really what you see with Edward is that David, as the family called him, is that, you know, you can probably make your own choice, but the right type of young lady. And that would mean aristocratic, that would mean young, that would mean a virgin.

[Dan Snow]

Okay.

[Professor Kate Williams]

And that's not who he wants to date.

[Dan Snow]

And so who does he want to date?

[Professor Kate Williams]

He wants to date the older married woman. And in that, he's taking after Grandpa. Grandpa Edward vii. He liked a married woman. He liked a nice, older married woman. Because, you know what's really great about a married woman?

[Dan Snow]

I can't answer that question, you tell

[Professor Kate Williams]

me you can hide the pregnancy.

[Dan Snow]

Okay, right.

[Professor Kate Williams]

If she gets pregnant, you can hide it and you can pay off the gentleman, the husband with various estates. And that's the marvelous answer. So he likes a married lady. But increasingly he doesn't necessarily choose the married ladies of the British aristocracy whose husbands turned a blind eye when it was Edward VII, including of course Mrs. Keppel's husband turned a blind eye. He likes the American lady. He likes these glamorous, fun, rich Americans who are, I would say really almost flooding into London at this point in the late 1920s, early 1930s. They are coming into London, they've got money, they've got glamour, they've got all these wonderful innovations in America and he's fascinated by them.

[Dan Snow]

But they have a huge weakness for a prince.

[Professor Kate Williams]

They have a weakness for a prince. And do you know what he apparently his chat up line to Wallis Simpson is, no, I don't. He says, I hear you've got good central heating in America. And she says this, I love this. She says, everyone asks me about central heating, I don't want to talk anymore about central heating. Find something better. That's how he sees Americans, you know, new fangled inventions. And she is, there's no deference. Yeah, the answer back, none of this deference. I expect you to entertain me. So he gets very fond of all these American ladies and he has a mistress. Well, he's got a few mistresses, so various married, older, intelligent hostesses, the great hostesses, that's who he likes.

[Dan Snow]

I've just realised that I bought into the British propaganda about him that he was a complete ne' er do well, but actually that shows enormous taste. Rather than like chasing these teenage aristocratic English girls around, he likes sassy, intelligent, opinionated older American women.

[Professor Kate Williams]

That's what he likes. That's what he likes. Yeah, absolutely. So I think that shows he makes. What do you call a cougar pray? A cougar. I don't know, they're not very much older. They're not very much older. But in the perceptions of the time when a girl has to be so young and very much younger, it is pretty revolutionary.

[Dan Snow]

Right, okay, so. And he likes to emancipate, as it were, women that can answer back, have intellectual discussion, talk about technology. Yeah.

[Professor Kate Williams]

And also I think the benefit to him of married ladies is not just that you can have sex with them and hide the pregnancy, but also that he can have various ones going at the same time. So he's usually got quite a circle of ladies, I guess. We call it a throuple or in the modern languages, more modern than I ever knew, you know, a collection of American ladies. Now we might say that he's not spending an awful lot of time preparing for the throne. And his father George and his mother Mary, who are obsessively moral. They're devoted to each other. They never had any other thoughts of anyone but each other. They find it totally baffling the behaviour of the Prince of Wales and it's kept out of the newspapers because it's not really appropriate. This isn't what the Prince of Wales is supposed to be doing.

[Dan Snow]

Well, you say that, but every single descendant of George I wasn't. Well, nearly all of them were complete wrong un's, complete rons. They came to their romantic lives. I don't think he thought it wasn't appropriate. You should have read a family history.

[Professor Kate Williams]

Read a family history.

[Dan Snow]

Okay, anyway, so we've got Prince Edward, whose real name was David.

[Professor Kate Williams]

They family called him David. It was his middle name.

[Dan Snow]

That was his middle name.

[Professor Kate Williams]

It was his middle name. Always complicated because you obviously have five names and then five or six names and then the last name is your real name. So it was like me being called Catherine and then six of the names and then saying, well actually my name is the sixth name and that's what I'm using Leaf or whatever it might be.

[Dan Snow]

So we got Prince Edward, also known as David. He meets Wallis Simpson. You've already teed it up with that terrible chat up line. Where and when do they meet?

[Professor Kate Williams]

Well, he meets Wallis in 1931 and she's born in 1896. She grows up in Baltimore. Bessie Wallis Warfield. Her father dies and her mother is a bit dependent on relations. Then her mother remarries, there's a wealthy stepfather, she goes to a good school and Wallis Marries, age 20, Wynn Spencer, a naval aviator. Now he seems great on paper, but it's not a good marriage. He drinks, he's abusive. So she does divorce him in 1927, which is very radical. She divorces him in 1927 and there were some talks of various affairs. She goes to China and has a period of living in China. And then she meets Ernest Simpson, an Anglo American shipping executive who's a very different man to her first husband. He's kind, he's very thoughtful and they marry. He divorces his wife, they marry and they're in London and they are making their way in high society, getting in huge amounts of debt as they do. But you know, you can find this sometimes can't you. And I've certainly had friends who've gone to live in other countries who found this, that you can live in other countries and the hierarchies and the networks that are so important in your home country are overturned. And perhaps you can head faster at the social scale if you're an expat that you wouldn't be allowed to do in the United States because you're not part of the right social grouping in London, you can be free. So they are having these gigantic parties. They have a huge flat in Mayfair. And she really gets very friendly with the in crowd around the Prince of Wales.

[Dan Snow]

There's so propaganda around her that she was almost sex worker whilst in China. Is there any. She just sounds to me like she's just a normal person going through life, but has had these two relationships.

[Professor Kate Williams]

Recent scholarship has actually gone into Wallis in China and said, no, there isn't any idea, although all these rumors weren't there, that she'd been a sex work there and she'd learned techniques there. Mysterious, mysterious. So it's all very Orientalist, isn't it? She learned these sex techniques and that's what Edward was so gripped by. I mean, we see a similar, similar conversation about Anne Boleyn, don't we? They say about Anne Boleyn that she learned techniques at the French court, including perhaps oral sex, and that that was what tempted Henry viii, which there's no evidence for it, but she was in China, but certainly she's much more international. She's been worldly than any woman he's ever met. Before he meets her in 1931, he makes that terrible question about central heating. And of course that's a shock to. Because royals expect the most boring question or terrible joke to be met with hysterical laughter. Oh, you're so funny, sir. Oh, how interesting, how prescient. And Wallis says, oh, not the central heating again. Now she has a friend, Thelma Furness, who is the established partner. I don't really like the word mistress. Established partner. She's married, of course, they all are. Established partner, along with Frieda Dudley, ward of the Prince. And Thelma in 1934, has to go back to America to look at some of her investments for three months. And she knows that our Prince, our Edward, has an attention span of a flea and he needs entertainment and she doesn't want any other girls coming in and seizing him. So she thinks, who shall I give him as a babysitter? She said, well, I know I'll give him my most plain, my most boring, my Most ill dressed and actually impoverished friend Wallis. I'll give him Wallace to look after him because she's so plain and boring. He won't.

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[Professor Kate Williams]

Whoops.

[Dan Snow]

So she wasn't super glamorous, but conventionally

[Professor Kate Williams]

not as glamorous as the other women around her. Not as glamorous, not as well dressed, not as well connected, not as rich and not seen as as witty. Even though she was actually very witty. I think actually she was these things. But everyone rather looked down a bit upon her because she hadn't got such a particularly glamorous marriage. So Thelma says, Wallis, look after David while I'm away. I'm back in three months. She gets back three months. Whoops. They apparently go for lunch and Wallis does something to Edward's food, cuts it up all. And that's really the signal to Thelma that she's out. And also she also finds that she doesn't have a direct line to his telephone anymore. She is ghosted. And Wallis sees off Thelma. Thelma is out and she also sees off the other lady, Frieda Dudley Ward. She is out. Wallis sees them both off very fast. David is infatuated with her almost immediately.

[Dan Snow]

Really. We could say they fell in love.

[Professor Kate Williams]

It can't just be jokes about central heating. It must be something more. I think that's why it's often credited with the idea that she must have these secretive, amazing sexual techniques. But simply I think he was fascinated by her. She was very irreverent to him. She refused to bow to him, she refused to defer to him. She was often actually really satirize him and sometimes taking the mickey out of him. And that often got more than taking the mickey actually sort of, you know, picking on him. And I think he found that very refreshing.

[Dan Snow]

I bet he did. Did she want to become queen?

[Professor Kate Williams]

This is the million dollar question. Does Wallis want to be queen or really was she tempted into this relationship? And you can't really say no to the prince. Was she in this relationship? And it was a tiger that she was riding that was more out of control than she ever could have imagined because you know, he's got form. This is not a man a lady dates thinking he's going to be a long term guy. You think, oh, he's not reliable. No, he's not reliable. Maybe I'll stay with him for six months, get a few nice jewels, a couple of hats and he'll move on to another younger model. Anne Seba's very good book, that Woman about Wallace. You know, this is what she's researched and looks into this and said, you know, it's very much the case that I think Wallis thinks, well, I'm pushing 40, you know, I'm not young anymore and I'm not beautiful and glamorous. So he's just going to have fun with me for a while. With an attention span of a flea is going to find a younger model. So she'll stay in it for a while because they get entree in high society. Ernest Simpson is really quite pleased about this entree in high society. Yes. He doesn't really mind at this point. Presents he showers jewels on her. So at this point it seems win win. And very much. Wallis, I think, doesn't realize how much he just becomes fascinated by her.

[Dan Snow]

So they meet in 1930. They meet in 31.

[Professor Kate Williams]

34. So they meet in 31. In 1934, Thelma Furness makes a fatal error. Okay, so never ask your friend to babysit your lover.

[Dan Snow]

Felt lover.

[Professor Kate Williams]

I don't know what we're supposed to what we do really. I guess we, what do we do? Lock them up in a cage or something and say they yes, we never have a best friend.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah, well, just tell them to. Just tell them to top themselves up and watch Netflix till you get back. Or history. This is Dan Snow's history here. More after this. This episode is brought to you by Bill, the intelligence finance platform that helps business and accounting firms scale with proven results. In history and in finance, proof is everything. Smart leaders don't bet on promises. They rely on what's proven to stand the test of time. That's why so many have turned to Bill to manage, move and maximize their money. Bill has already securely processed over a trillion dollars in real transactions. But not just moving money. They're simplifying financial operations for nearly half a million customers. And over 90 of the top 100 US accounting firms trust Bill to get it right. So stop the guesswork and start scaling with the proven choice. Ready to talk with an expert? Visit bill.comproven to get started and grab a $250 gift card as a thank you. That's bill.comprovost proven terms conditions apply. See offer page for details. This episode is brought to you by Ethos. If you love history, you know one thing is true. The future is never guaranteed. Empires fall, fortunes vanish. And too often, families left dealing with the consequences of not planning ahead. That's why life insurance matters. Ethos makes protecting your family fast, simple and 100% online. You get a quote in seconds, apply in minutes, and even get Same day coverage. There's no medical exam. You just answer a few health questions. Coverage goes up to $3 million, with some policies starting around 30 bucks a month. As of March 2025, Business Insider named Ethos the number one no medical exam instant life insurance provider. And they've earned 4.8 out of 5 stars on Trustpilot with over 3,000 reviews. History teaches us to plan ahead. So protect your family now with life insurance through Ethos. Get your free quote in [e-mail] snow that's e t h o s.com snow snow application times and rates May var Mary. TikTok Buenos precious Para lo que usas todos los dias descarga TikTok Ahora. Okay, so the timing's interesting, I see. So 9:34, they get together. So they're still in that bloom, that sort of infatuation of early love when his father dies.

[Professor Kate Williams]

You are so right. So 1934, they get together. She thinks it's never going to last. She goes on a holiday with him to 1935. And by the way, Ernest is having enough. I mean, it's one thing going to parties with him, but going on holiday? The Prince and his wife going on holiday. Ernest does not like that. And then everything is turned upside down. It is January 1936. George V dies, as we know, dispatched rather quickly by his doctor with a small combination of cocaine and morphine is bunged in. So he dies much faster. And they get the news in the morning papers, not the infra dig evening papers. And George dies. And Edward is devastated. And it's fascinating because George dies, the King dies. And the minute he dies, Queen Mary, she turns and she kisses her son's hand. He is now the King. She defers to him. And Edward, he's heartbroken. The new Edward viii, He's heartbroken. He weeps over his father. Even though his father hadn't been very happy about the whole Wallis business. He'd heard about it, he told him to stop. He'd forbidden Wallis ever to come to the palace. He'd been furious when she had been in the. And he was very angry about it. But now Edward is heartbroken. He plans his father's funeral. He really is playing the role of the best king in history. And of course, Wallis is married, so he's going to have to find some more suitable young lady, perhaps Elizabeth Boz Lion, a spare little friend that he might throw over to him. So Wallis is married. Everyone says, well, we know that the King has this friendship with Wallis. Everyone Knows the Royal household, know the politician, knows the royal family, know everyone, knows the that the King is obsessed with Wallis, but they think that now he's the King, she's just going to melt away.

[Dan Snow]

But it is an astonishing decision by him to try and make it official.

[Professor Kate Williams]

And what pushes him into it is Wallis's divorce. Now, Wallis feels rather bad for poor old Ernest Simpson, poor old cuckold. And so you know what she does? She asks her old school friend Mary Kirk to look after him. And what happens? He falls in love with Mary.

[Dan Snow]

Wow. There's a lot of looking after.

[Professor Kate Williams]

Yes, I know. You know, extensive 1930s babysitting. Yeah. So never, as we say, if your husband or spouse or your lover or your wife is going away yet, tell her, stay in bed and get takeaway. Mary and Ernest fall in love and Ernest decides he's had enough of his wife with the King and he says, we've got to get divorced. He actually goes to Edward and he says, surely you'll never marry Wallis. And Edward says, oh, I will. I will marry her. And that gentleman's agreement between two men. When Ernest realises that if he divorces Wallis, she's not going to be out on her ear as a woman abandoned by society, he agrees to the divorce. So they get divorced in October, as we know what happens in the 1930s divorce, it has to be adultery. And Ernst agrees to have that whole setup in which you are discovered in a hotel room and that means it's adultery. So this is what they all have in the 1930s, if you want to get divorced, you. You have to go to a seaside resort and get discovered in a hotel room. And that's what happens to Ernest.

[Dan Snow]

And then the judge will say, fine.

[Professor Kate Williams]

The judge says, fine. So the divorce, the Decree niecy comes in October 1936, and now the King can marry Wallis. And the government begin to panic. They think he's gonna marry her. What are we gonna do? Baldwin, who's the Prime Minister, who was hoping for a nice quiet.

[Dan Snow]

He's just a gentle old Conservative.

[Professor Kate Williams]

Yeah, a gentle old, you know, trot into the sunset. He's thinking, no, no, not on my watch. And then the government have to deal with this. And the government, Baldwin says to him, you can't do this. And his private secretary says to him, you cannot do this. The government will resign. And you'd think Edward might say, oh, I don't want the government resigning. That will look bad. He says, no, I want to marry Wallis. I really want to marry her. I'm determined to Marry her. And so we have a gigantic constitutional crisis on their hands that he wants to marry her. And the problem is, is that he is head of the Church of England and she has two husbands still living. Perhaps if they'd been dead, it might have been a different matter. But she is twice divorced. She cannot marry a divorcee. And is the fact that she's an

[Dan Snow]

American an issue or.

[Professor Kate Williams]

It is an issue because there is anti Americanism coming at this point. So she's not popular, she's an American. People think she's too old. There are all kinds of reasons why she's disliked. But the actual constitutional crisis is that she has been twice divorced. Had she not been divorced, it would have been a very different matter.

[Dan Snow]

Isn't that interesting? So it's the fact that she's twice divorced that's against Church of England doctrine?

[Professor Kate Williams]

Yes. You can't marry a divorcee. In the Church of England, divorcees were not welcome at, and they weren't welcome at all in society. And therefore Wallis had been very radical in what she'd done. But this is absolutely impossible. He's told, you can't marry her, and he won't listen.

[Dan Snow]

So this is almost on a scale a generation or two ago, of a monarch saying that they were gay.

[Professor Kate Williams]

Yes. This is a huge moment and you see things moving very far. So the divorce of Wallis and Ernest comes in October and everyone knows, the press know, they've seen them on holiday together. The European press has talked about the King's friendship, but not the British press, and they've kept it out of the stories. And in fact, the private sector says, oh, the press has been silent. And I think that's two reasons. Number one, there's been pressure on them to keep silent. But also I think, I wonder whether it's been shooting the messenger, whether they think that if they print this big story that the King is dating a divorced woman, that the papers will be in loads of trouble, that this continued silence can't be reliable. So the government are arguing. Edward's saying no, he's saying, absolutely, I won't. And then there's actually a sermon, a bishop gives a sermon saying that he hopes Edward will be a better king, he'll work harder. Now, I think that poor bishop doesn't know anything, he's just talking about work. But this is really seen by the press as, here we go, it's been talked about and in it goes into the press and therefore Baldwin has to do something about it. And suddenly the people are made, everyone knows about it.

[Dan Snow]

Wow.

[Professor Kate Williams]

So Baldwin has to do something about it. And Churchill, as we can imagine, Winston Churchill is putting his oar in. He's getting his nose in. He doesn't like Baldwin, he's trying to bring him down. And he sees an opportunity here. And he's very fond of Edward viii. And he says, let's come up with a solution. Come up with a solution is that Edward will marry Wallis, but it'll be a morganatic marriage. So that's a marriage by which she's a wife but not a queen. She's not going to be Queen consort, she's just gonna be a morganatic marriage.

[Dan Snow]

It'll be like Franz Ferdinand.

[Professor Kate Williams]

This is the plan.

[Dan Snow]

People are familiar with that one.

[Professor Kate Williams]

Yes, this is the plan. It's happened a lot in Europe. So the idea is that this is what's going to happen. After the Statute of Westminster in 1931, he's got to go to the Dominions, and he says, okay, I'll go and see what the Dominions think, because they're the Empire, but they're running the show. And unfortunately, the Dominions all say no. South Africa, Australia, they say, no, no, no, no, no more galactic marriage. New Zealand says, or maybe. And Ireland says, we don't want the parts of the Empire anyway. So essentially it's a no. And what can then Baldwin do? And he says, we're going to resign. And actually he speaks to his Liberal and Labour counterparts and says, if I resign, would you not form a government? They say, oh, no, we don't want to form a government. We agree this is all terrible, but whatever they try, Edward will not be shifted. He doesn't want a morganatic marriage. He says he wants her to be Empress of India. And the whole bag of tricks. I mean, that's why that the Empire is a bag of tricks. And so he's determined to abdicate. And she begs him not to. Wallis says, please don't. She's fled to France. When the news broke, she's been, please don't, please don't. Because she knows she'll be so attacked, and maybe she never really loved him that much. She just thought it was an affair that would last. She's not obsessed with him. And perhaps that's why he's so obsessed with her, because she was always a bit at one reserve.

[Dan Snow]

You hear stories about Romanoffs weeping when they realize they're next in line to the throne. Do you think there's a part of him that did not want to be king, Emperor? Do you think part of him thought A, I'm in love with this woman. B, actually, this is my way out.

[Professor Kate Williams]

I think that's a really good point. I think he did see it as his way out. He was vitally stuck on marrying Wallis and she begged him not to and she tried to give him up and he wouldn't have any of it. She's actually, by this point, writing to Ernest Simpson, saying she's still very fond of him, she still loves him, even though he's married to her school friend by now. Swings him roundabout. And Edward, he has this vision of what if he abdicates? Then he can push away with all this boring ribbon cutting and all the boring jobs of being King. He can marry Wallis and he can be that glamorous Prince of Wales again. So he has his vision of what he will be abdicating. And essentially you're right. I think he just thinks, I don't want to do this job. I'm young and fun and glamorous. I don't want to be like my boring old father and do this job for the rest of my life. Ribbon cutting and shaking hands with the Prime Minister. I want to do something fun. And Wallace is a way out, right?

[Dan Snow]

And so he extraordinarily abdicates the throne. His little brother takes over who he thinks is a bit more boring and likely to want to cut ribbons and do all that kind of thing. What does he do next? Does he get to live that life that he'd so hoped for?

[Professor Kate Williams]

No, he does not. He is not going to be allowed to stay in the country. The King George VI and Queen Mary are allied on that. He's not going to be allowed to stay in the country. He has to go.

[Dan Snow]

Does that come as a shock to him?

[Professor Kate Williams]

It does come as a shock to him.

[Dan Snow]

Does he go, hang on, my little brother's treating me. What's going on?

[Professor Kate Williams]

He thought his little brother was very under his thumb. Everyone always underestimated George vi. He thought he was a very lacking in intelligence young man and he could just tell him what to do. And therefore it's a big shock to him when he is told out and the government agree, the government want him out as well. He goes to Austria and there he spends the whole time. Andrew Lowney wrote about this very well in his very good book, Traitor Quigg, and he said he spends the whole time on the phone saying, how much money can I have? I want money, give me more money. And he's basically sort of blackmailing the Royal family. He also ran off with bits and pieces of Jewelry. When he left, he ran off with the Prince of Wales coronet. So he runs off with the Prince of Wales, his crown that he, he was crowned within 1911, he runs off with that. So when Prince Charles gets invested as Prince of Wales in 1969 in Carnarvon Castle, they haven't got a crown. They have to make a makeshift one and put a ping pong ball and spray it gold on top because they haven't got one because everyone's run off with it, so they don't want to ask it back. So he's in Austria, he can't be with Wallis, she's in France. Her divorce is not fully through yet. So he's in Austria, complaining, ringing up, saying, I want more money. And then finally her divorce goes through in May 1937 and they marry in France on June 3rd.

[Dan Snow]

That's quick work.

[Professor Kate Williams]

It's quick work. He marries her super quickly and now he's a newlywed and now he's out on his ear. What is he going to do? He wants to be Prince of Wales and he's out on his ear. But of course there's a regime in Europe who really want to see him and see that use can be made of him. And that's the Nazis.

[Dan Snow]

His dad knows history. There's more on this topic coming up.

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[Professor Kate Williams]

TikTok E free Tedeja, Bajar, el Presio, Astacero, Descarga, TikTok Busc.

[Dan Snow]

This has been written about ever since it happened. What is your judgment? What do you think? Do you think that actually he was seen by Adolf Hitler as quite a useful figure, like a puppet, like the Jacobites? You know, if we invade Britain or if we come to deal with them, we stick our man back on the throne. And do you think he was willing a participant in that sort of, however loose conspiracy it was?

[Professor Kate Williams]

So this is the question about Edward. Does he know what Hitler's plans are for him? Hitler's plans are when he invades he'll put Edward on the throne, he'll be a puppet king. Does he know that? And does he support Hitler in that? And there are so many different questions about this, but I think it's very clear that certainly in the 1930s, in 1937, October 1937, when he and Wallis go to Germany and they meet Goebbels and they meet Goering and then he meets up with Hitler, has a private meeting with Hitler, that he loves the accolades, he loves what he gets in Germany. They treat him like a king, they treat Wallis like a queen. And that is very important to him. And that's what he wants. He wants her. She can't be hrh. She hasn't been allowed to have that. She's treated as a queen, as hrh. It's all marvellous. And so he has this private meeting with Hitler and we don't know what's said there, we don't know what they discuss, but there's a photo opportunity. They go all around Nazi Germany and of course, by this point, Jews have been excluded from professions. There are restrictions. The idea of the anti Semitism, it's become a policy, you know, it's happening. And only going to be a year later when there's Kristallnacht and all the Jewish businesses are vandalized. So it is there, everyone knows about it. And yet on he carries on. Now, Edward himself says later, he says, I was taken in by Hitler. He took me in because I believed he was the only ballast against communism. That's what he says. But certainly he loves the accolade that Hitler gives him. And when the Nazis invade France, Edward and Wallace flee. They head down first to Spain, then they head to Portugal. And this is the question, is he involved? Is he giving information to German spies? They stay with a banker who actually is a German asset. And is he passing on information? And there are these. These many files that are found in 1945 in which there's all about Hitler's plans and the Germans, plans in which, you know, it suggests that maybe he could encourage Britain to a peace. And the idea for doing this would be mass bombing of Britain and then they'll come to a peace with Germany. How much the Duke knew about it or not? Andrew Lowney says he does many other biographies. He doesn't really know about it. It's a question I think we'll never know. But it's interesting, isn't it, Dan? Because this is a different story. But Anthony Blunt, who's later unmasked as the spy who Gave away so many secrets in World War II. He goes over on a secret mission after World War for the royal family, accompanied by the royal librarian, to get documents. And they say they're all about Princess Vicky, Victoria's daughter. I mean, I don't know why they would be her letters and a few crowns, but I think what he's really going to try and find are those files about the Duke of Windsor. That's what he's really supposed to be looking for. And obviously many of them he doesn't find and they are found and exposed and found by American officers.

[Dan Snow]

So the Brits send a special exhibition to the ruins of Berlin to comb through them and try and find these files.

[Professor Kate Williams]

And then. Yes, what they want.

[Dan Snow]

Because they want to protect the reputation of. Of Queen Victoria's oldest daughter.

[Professor Kate Williams]

Yes, that's right. Come on, Princess, come on. Yes. Princess Vicky in Victoria might have said a few.

[Dan Snow]

Casa Wilhelm's mum.

[Professor Kate Williams]

Yeah, they might have said something. So they're extensive correspondent. That's what this secret mission is for.

[Dan Snow]

Sure.

[Professor Kate Williams]

They want to go to all these castles and get hold of them before the Americans do. They also bring back a few bits and pieces of treasure. I think that they want to make sure that aren't taken. But that's what I think they're really looking for is Duke of Windsor letters. Because is he actually giving information to the Nazis?

[Dan Snow]

There's lots of stories around about Wallis, some of them very malicious. Do you think she was a Nazi sympathiser? Do you think she was? In fact, people say she was romantically engaged with senior Nazis.

[Professor Kate Williams]

That is the question that most kind of condemns her reputation. Was she involved with Nazis? Was she part of the Nazi groupings? And there was talk that she was a lover of Ribbentrop and he sent her flowers.

[Dan Snow]

Hitler's foreign minister.

[Professor Kate Williams]

Hitler's foreign minister. And so that she was a Nazi spy as well. Now, was this the truth? Now, Anne Seber, she really argues it is not the truth. There's no evidence for this whatsoever. There's really no evidence for this, as there are many rumors about her. But certainly there is absolutely no doubt that when she and Edward went to Nazi Germany, they appreciated the welcome they got. And if they went back when there had been even more severe and horrific restrictions on Jews, would they have been condemnatory? I think we could possibly say that they would not.

[Dan Snow]

Well, what we can say about that is that they were not alone in the British elite. No wide sways. The British conservative elite in particular were

[Professor Kate Williams]

quite, you know, and that Footage came out a couple of years ago, didn't it, of even before Edward abdicated. There he is doing a Nazi salute and encouraging the Queen Mother and the Princesses to do as well. Of course, you know, Elizabeth and Margaret were children, they didn't understand, but there he is already seeing Nazism as. As he later said he thought it was some kind of liberation from communism, this total disaster. So I think Wallace probably wasn't a Nazi spy or a Nazi agent, but if the Nazis had invaded, I really can't see her and Edwards saying, absolutely not to be put on the throne.

[Dan Snow]

So after going to Spain and Portugal, he was then sent by the British very deliberately to the Bahamas.

[Professor Kate Williams]

That's it. They can't cope with all the chaos he's causing. Off he goes to the Bahamas to be Governor of the Bahamas, complaining all the way. They complain. He said, it's too. And the government said, I'm sorry, people are being bombed, people are suffering. You can stop complaining about being in the Bahamas and it being too hot. Now, Wallace actually does do war work with the Red Cross and she does actually do work for infant mortality, but she does use racial slurs in her letters. I mean, I'm sure he does as well. So literally, they are in Bahamas playing the life of the wealthy elite and all the government wants is them to be out of the way. And they are sitting there complaining about their suffering during World War II, when the whole world.

[Dan Snow]

What happens after the war? Does this difficult energy with the Royal family continue after 1945?

[Professor Kate Williams]

After the war, they go back to France and they live in exile in France and there is no connection with the Royal family. When Elizabeth II comes to the throne, she is crowned in 1953, and Edward is not invited to the coronation. He's not invited and he sits and watches it in Paris with a hostess. She gives him a special gold chair to sit and watch the coronation on TV because that's the only gold chair he's ever going to get. So he has no relationship with the Royal family whatsoever. But in 1965, he comes over for an eye operation in London and then he does meet the Queen, he does meet Elizabeth ii and they do invite him to a family occasion. So we do see a sort of thawing of relations between Edward and the Royal family, but that is after the King's death. And the Queen Mother, when she sees Wallis again at this occasion, because the Queen Mother and Wallis were at daggers drawn, they hated each other. And Wallis apparently called the Queen Mother cookie because she said that she was Always lucky to eat lots of food. So they hate each other. So that was not a good friendship. But I think Elizabeth II tries to create a relationship and then not long after, in 1972, the Duke dies and then the Prince of Wales coronet comes back to the Crown Jewels.

[Dan Snow]

And Wallis Simpson, usefully for the British firm, the monarchy does not have any children.

[Professor Kate Williams]

You're exactly right, she does not have any children.

[Dan Snow]

So there'.

[Professor Kate Williams]

Pretenders. That would be the constitutional question. If they had a child, that child would always be there, popping up, popping up, and could be a possible pretender,

[Dan Snow]

a king over the water.

[Professor Kate Williams]

Even though he abdicates, his son would still be theoretically superior to Elizabeth ii, James vii.

[Dan Snow]

And second, it's very true. He abdicated.

[Professor Kate Williams]

He abdicated and then. You're exactly right. And then it still has the royal. The royal lineage. And it's so interesting, isn't it? Cause you know what we're saying that. Does he see Wallis as a way out of being into king? Does he think about that? He's thinking, she's probably not going to have a child. There was some talk that an early procedure rendered her infertile. You know, we don't know the truth of that or not, but certainly she didn't have a child with either of her husbands. And she was, by the time that she was with Edward, she was well under the way of 40, which was seen as too old for having children. So maybe that was something else that was appealing, that she wasn't going to have the heir so he could completely abdicate himself from royal life.

[Dan Snow]

This used to be the greatest royal scandal of recent history, and now it's been superseded by another one. But that's another for a different podcast that different later historians can look at that one. Kate Williams, thank you very much for coming on this show.

[Professor Kate Williams]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Dan Snow]

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Dan Snow's history hit. You know, you could have watched this episode and others on YouTube. That's right. You can peek behind the curtain of how we record this podcast on our YouTube YouTube channel. Very exciting new development here. Just click the link in the show notes and head over to subscribe. New YouTube releases every Friday. Friends. Don't miss out.

[Professor Kate Williams]

Buska free. Hey, marketers, here's something to note. 75% of listeners don't consider podcasters to be influencers. Yet 84% say a podcaster has changed

[Dan Snow]

their mind about something they once believed. That's the paradox of podcast influence.

[Professor Kate Williams]

It's built on credibility not clout, Trust not trends. Acast's podcast Pulse 2025 report reveals how podcast creators are redefining influence through resonance, multi platform fandoms and their ability to shape culture. Get the full report [e-mail]

[Dan Snow]

have you been enjoying my podcast and now want even more history? Sign up to History and watch the world's best history documentaries on subjects like how William conquered England, what it was like to live in the Georgian era, and you can even hear the voice of Richard iii. We've got hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, and there's always something more to discover. Sign up to join us in historic locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyit.com subscribe.