Eleanor of Aquitaine

Summary

Dan Snow’s History Hit
Episode: Eleanor of Aquitaine (April 13, 2026)
Host: Dan Snow
Guest: Dr. Elena (Eleanor) Jarnegger

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Episode Overview

In this vibrant, high-energy conversation, Dan Snow and medievalist Dr. Elena Jarnegger (“the medieval queen of History Hit”) chronicle the life and legacy of Eleanor of Aquitaine. Framing Eleanor as a central force in the Angevin Empire—one of Europe’s most powerful, dysfunctional dynasties—they explore her political acumen, romantic and dynastic maneuvering, her famous children, and her unmatched influence on medieval European politics and culture. The episode moves from Eleanor’s birth and inheritance of Aquitaine, through two tumultuous marriages, the Second Crusade, and her centrality in the Plantagenet dynasty, all the way to the empire’s decline after her death.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Eleanor's Origins and Aquitaine’s Importance

• Aquitaine's Wealth and Culture (05:07)
  • Born into one of the richest lordships in France, covering much of southwestern and central France.
  • Culturally distinct from northern France: “In Aquitaine, you also educate women. People are really interested in bringing up this court culture and fostering it.” (Dr. Elena Jarnegger, 06:07)
  • Aquitaine’s autonomy: local nobility wielded significant power; the king of France mainly controlled Paris (“He essentially rules Paris, which…is the biggest city in Europe. But…individual nobles are incredibly powerful…” – Jarnegger, 06:48).

Heiress and Queen of France

• Marriage to Louis VII (09:04)
  • Upon her father’s death, Eleanor became Europe’s most eligible heiress; promptly married to Louis VII, future King of France.
  • Political negotiation: she retained her lands until producing a male heir; her lands would pass to her son, but not automatically to her husband (09:04).
• A Culture Clash and Marital Strife (10:01)
  • Louis was religious and “quite a boring guy” (Jarnegger, 10:17). Their union was troubled by lack of sons and courtly, religious differences.
  • “She has to go in and pretty cry in front of Saint Bernard of Clairvaux…She basically has to iron all these things out, which is classic queen stuff.” (Jarnegger, 11:49)

The Second Crusade and Divorce

• Eleanor’s Agency on Crusade (12:25)
  • Eleanor led her own armed retinue from Aquitaine; her presence amazed contemporaries in Constantinople (“People were very impressed by this…they talk about her as being a new Amazonian queen.” – 13:49)
  • Marriage swiftly deteriorated: “No one cares about Louis…at Constantinople, no one cares about Louis. They’re like, ‘Yeah, also some guy.’” (14:26)
• Blame and Gender (15:21)
  • Failure of the Crusade partly blamed on Eleanor: rumors about her “slowing the baggage train,” etc.
• Divorce and Danger (16:55)
  • Separated from Louis by papal dispensation, Eleanor immediately faced threats of abduction—powerful men sought her hand for control of Aquitaine (17:25).

Marriage to Henry II and the Angevin Empire

• A Power Couple is Born (18:21)
  • Eleanor marries Henry, Duke of Normandy (the future Henry II of England), a teenage alliance shocking contemporaries (“One of the biggest blindsides in medieval history.” – Snow, 18:21)
  • This union created the Angevin Empire, a massive trans-national domain stretching from Scotland to the Pyrenees (20:04).
  • “This is tons of land…such a large amount of land that we now tend to refer to this as the Angevin Empire.” (Dr. Jarnegger, 21:57)
• Change in Fortune: Many Sons
  • Eleanor quickly gave birth to multiple sons, contrasting her barren marriage with Louis—“Basically, the kids start coming thick and fast…” (22:38)

Children, Rebellion, and Succession

• The Dramatic Plantagenet Children (23:29–27:18)
  • Sons included Henry the Young King (the golden playboy), Richard the Lionheart (her favorite, raised as Duke of Aquitaine), Geoffrey (Duke of Brittany), and John (“Lackland”).
  • Notable quote: “We now tend to refer to this as the Angevin Empire because these are wildly disparate groups of people who speak different languages…all controlled by one family.” (Dr. Jarnegger, 21:57)
  • Daughters married advantageously across Europe; “Forget Victoria—this is the real grandmother of Europe.” (26:30)
• Family Rebellion and Imprisonment (31:41)
  • As Henry II’s sons grew, they rebelled against their father, angry over land and power allocations.
  • Eleanor possibly supported her sons’ revolt: “Henry, the young king, resents his father…Geoffrey is like, ‘yeah, sure, why not rebel against our father?’” (Dr. Jarnegger, 33:55)
  • Eleanor was captured and held under a genteel house arrest in England, only released after Henry II’s death (34:46).

Richard the Lionheart: Crusade, Captivity, and Eleanor’s Regency

• Richard Becomes King (38:31)
  • Richard immediately frees his mother, showing their close bond: “He loves her so much…the first thing he does is say, ‘Let my mum go!’” (38:38)
• Eleanor as Regent (41:13)
  • With Richard away on crusade, Eleanor governed as regent in England, collecting Richard’s enormous ransom after his capture in Germany.
  • “She has to go around, beg, borrow, and steal, levy all kinds of taxes. She gets the money together and she gets Richard out.” (Dr. Jarnegger, 44:43)
• Women in Power (41:28)
  • “It's not super unusual [for women to rule]. We tend to think of it as unusual, but it happens…” (Dr. Jarnegger, 41:38)

Final Years: John, Decline, and Legacy

• Succession Crisis: John vs. Arthur (49:00)
  • After Richard’s death, John is chosen over his nephew Arthur for the throne—a pragmatic choice favoring an adult candidate.
  • “Eleanor is also kind of thinking, ‘well, I don’t know how much more life I’ve got in me’…She can have a little bit more influence over John.” (Dr. Jarnegger, 50:39)
• Eleanor’s Final Acts (51:54)
  • Even late in life, Eleanor organizes defenses against rebellion and navigates chaotic succession politics (“She’s having to hold castles, write letters, trying to garner support…” – 51:54).
• End of the Empire (54:27)
  • Eleanor retires to Fontevraud Abbey and dies soon after (1204). The Angevin Empire unravels within years.
  • “It takes a force of will like hers, I would say, to keep that much land together.” (Dr. Jarnegger, 54:34)
• John's Incompetence and Aftermath
  • John loses Normandy and the Plantagenet empire contracts to “a little slice of the East Midlands of England.” (56:54)
  • “This man cannot buy a win…They love to die of dysentery, these guys.” (Dr. Jarnegger & Snow, 56:28, 56:56)
• Eleanor's Enduring Importance
  • “She is the glue that is able to bring this huge portion of France under the control of the Crown. And it’s her political nous that really allows her to do that.” (Dr. Jarnegger, 57:16)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Eleanor’s Importance:
  “If you want a job done properly, get a woman to do it. That seems to me the unanswerable lesson of that wild period in Western European history.” (Dan Snow, 02:10)

• On Eleanor’s Early Influence:
  “[In Aquitaine] you also educate women. People are really interested in bringing up this court culture and fostering it…” (Dr. Jarnegger, 06:07)

• On the Dysfunctional Dynasty:
  “This is the story of one of history’s most powerful and dysfunctional dynasties and the queen at the center of it all.” (Dan Snow, 02:10)

• On Henry’s Extramarital Affairs:
  “Eleanor’s like, ‘yeah, wow, that’s wild. Anyway, you will find me in France. Goodbye. Have a girlfriend. That’s wild. Bye.” (Dr. Jarnegger, 31:41)

• On Eleanor’s Imprisonment:
  “Eleanor goes to jail, and the boys kind of get on with their life...if you’re Richard, he doesn’t like this. He loves his mom. He wants his mom back.” (Dr. Jarnegger, 34:46)

• On Richard’s Priorities:
  “This man came to England like four times altogether. And mostly it was because his dad said something and then to, like, get a bunch of money.” (Dr. Jarnegger, 40:34)

• On John’s Reputation:
  “Jon comes to the throne through murder through neglect…but Eleanor has managed to pass the empire to another son. At that point, sadly…she checks out.” (Dan Snow, 53:26)

• On Eleanor’s Legacy:
  “She is the glue that is able to bring this huge portion of France under the control of the Crown. And it’s her political nous that really allows her to do that.” (Dr. Jarnegger, 57:16)

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Key Timestamps

• 02:10 – Introduction: Eleanor’s unmatched power and centrality in the dynasty
• 05:07 – 06:36 – Eleanor’s birth, status, and Aquitaine as a cultural/political powerhouse
• 09:04 – 11:49 – Marriage to Louis VII; her political leverage, trouble producing an heir
• 12:25 – 17:25 – Second Crusade: Eleanor’s agency, leadership, and growing marital strain
• 18:21 – 21:57 – Marriage to Henry II, creation of the Angevin Empire, dynastic significance
• 23:29 – 27:18 – Overview of Eleanor’s children and their political destinies
• 31:41 – 34:46 – Family rebellions, Eleanor’s support of her sons, her captivity
• 38:31 – 41:13 – Richard I becomes king and immediately frees his mother
• 41:13 – 44:43 – Eleanor as regent during Richard’s crusade and captivity; collects his ransom
• 49:00 – 54:27 – John’s rise, succession struggles, Eleanor’s final political acts
• 54:27 – 57:16 – Eleanor’s death and the rapid fall of the empire she held together
• 57:16 – 58:52 – Summing up Eleanor’s enduring legacy

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Conclusion

Tone & Style:
The tone is lively, irreverent, and deeply knowledgeable—full of banter and enthusiasm, balanced with sharp historical insight.

Summary:
Eleanor of Aquitaine emerges not just as a queen but as the dynamic pivot of an entire age: cultured, canny, and fiercely independent. Her marriages and offspring shaped centuries of European history. The conversation paints her as the “glue” of the Angevin Empire, masterfully navigating the politics and chaos around her. Without her, the empire swiftly falls apart, confirming her critical role in holding one of history’s most powerful and dramatic dynasties together.

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For more Plantagenet intrigue, Dan recommends looking up the episodes on Richard the Lionheart and William the Marshal.

Transcript

[Dan Snow]

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[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

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[Dan Snow]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Anyways, only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.

[Dan Snow]

If you want a job done properly, get a woman to do it. That seems to me the unanswerable lesson of that wild ride, that wild period in Western European history, which was the late 12th and early 13th century. The era of the Angevin empire, the era of the Lionheart, the soft sword, the road to Magna Carta. The era, we should call it, of Elena of Aquitaine. Kings loved her men Died for her. She redrew the map of medieval Europe. She was the only woman to be crowned both in queen of France and England. She marched on the second crusade to the Holy Land. She led a coup against her own husband. Even the pope feared her. Eleanor of Aquitaine was the beating heart. She was the matriarch of that most powerful and explosive families, the Plantagenets. Her wealth from Aquitaine bankrolled kings. Her patronage shaped courtly culture. And her children, oh, what can we say about her children? Including Rich the Lionheart and King John. They ruled and they rebelled and they quarreled and conquered and were defeated. She was twice a queen. She was mother of monarchs. She was the glue that held Europe's most unlikely empire together. Eleanor's story is the story of one of Europe's most dramatic periods. Now, to take us through it, I am joined by the medieval queen of history hit, the historian, the host, the frankly online phenomenon, that is the Gone Medieval podcast host, Dr. Elena Jarnegger. This is Dan Snow's history hit. And this is the story of one of history's most powerful and dysfunctional dynasties and the queen at the center of it all. And to tell us about it, we have the queen. And just to let you know, some of the stuff we chat about in this episode maybe isn't suitable for listening with kids.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

T minus 10. Atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

[Dan Snow]

God save the king.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

No black, white unity till there is

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first some black unity.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Never to go to war with one another again.

[Dan Snow]

And liftoff.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

And the shuttle has cleared the tower.

[Dan Snow]

Ena Yarnega. Good to have you back on the podcast, Dan.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

You can't stop me.

[Dan Snow]

You and I have done a lot of work together, but when we talk about enormacitane, I feel that's when you hit your flow, because I think there's an affinity there. She's your kind of spirit animal.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

She is. Well, I mean, listen, I was literally named after the woman. I never had a choice in my destiny, in anything that happened. And, you know, it's one of those things where I think once you're told from an early age, this is someone who is important in your naming. Of course I was going to become obsessed with her. Of course. My mother was reading a book about her when she was pregnant with me.

[Dan Snow]

Really?

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah. So I was always getting it through baby.

[Dan Snow]

Well, now we're gonna get the benefit of that. Let's talk about her birth from the beginning. Was it clear she was someone's. There was a lot riding on it. She was an heiress.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Absolutely. You know, she is born into one of the most important landholding families in France. So Aquitaine, at the time, it's essentially all of southwestern France. France.

[Dan Snow]

Okay, so Aquitaine is a glorious place. We are talking, what, so around Bordeaux, south and west, and then almost like a nice little reach out to the Alps as well.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

That's right. Yeah. It goes a little bit further east than you would think. And it goes a little bit further north than you would think. You know, when we tend to talk about it, we say, oh, southwestern France. But Poitiers, the capital, is actually really kind of central. And so, yeah, I mean, culturally, it is southern. But now you wouldn't call Poitier southern France, I don't think.

[Dan Snow]

Okay. And the kingdom of France is around Paris and just sort of roughly northeast France now.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Exactly. And now this is an incredibly wealthy part of France. It's got incredibly important prestige. It is where Paris is. So she's born into this very particularized milieu. And it's also a little bit different from other places, like up in northern France. They're a little bit more stodgy.

[Dan Snow]

Sure.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

They're a little bit more by the book. So she's born into a place where you also educate women. So people are really interested in bringing up this court culture and fostering it. So. But when she's born, she does have older brothers. She isn't meant to be the heiress, but they die in that way that children do in the Middle Ages. And her dad is just kind of like, oh, yeah, okay, great. Well, I guess it's you now. You'll be the heir. And there isn't even that much of discussion about it. It's just sort of like, yeah, of course a woman can inherit.

[Dan Snow]

And let's quickly talk about France. We think of it as a state today. It has a kind of coherence we're really familiar with. It was part of France. But was her dad, was he effectively independent? Was he running his own show?

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah. I mean, what we have to understand is that, you know, kingdoms, it's a lot looser in the Middle Ages than it is now. Yes. There is a king of France. He essentially rules Paris, which, like, do not get me wrong, that is a really nice spot. It is the biggest city in Europe. There's a ton of money in that racket. But you also have particular vassal states underneath you. Right. And so that means that Eleanor's father is a vassal to the French king. And what happens is, basically, when you get a new king, you've got to go. You have to kneel before them, go like this, the king will take your hands in his and say, ah, yeah, you're my vassal. Great job. Well, what that means is that you have to kick some taxes up to the king. And if the king decides that he is going to go to war with someone, then you owe a certain number of troops. The king doesn't oversee the courts in your land. He doesn't get to necessarily push you around that much. Individual nobles are incredibly powerful, and this is something that will come up in a lot of places, including England. Right. Like under Eleanor's garbage son John, when he tries to, like, push the envelope too far here in England, and you get Magna Carta. Everybody understands that nobles across Europe have rather a lot of power in their own localities.

[Dan Snow]

So if you're living in Aquitaine, you've got a different language to French, you've got a different culture. You look up to their Duke of Aquitaine. King of France is a sort of not a huge character in your life.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

So, you know, you kind of feel sorry for him because you're like, damn, that must suck. Yeah.

[Dan Snow]

On paper, he's the king of everything.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah. But they've got a couple of nice palaces up there, and, yeah, they do get to kind of dangle the I'm the king over you. But that's essentially what they've got. You are down in Poitier. You're hearing the best music that Europe has to offer, and you are living the life, fundamentally.

[Dan Snow]

And if the King of France is like, I'm gonna send an army in Aquitaine to go and arrest this guy, the Duke of Aquitaine just laughed.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Oh, absolutely not. He was like, cute. That's real nice. You just wouldn't even have the ability to do that. You need to get the duke on side.

[Dan Snow]

Okay. And that, I guess, brings us neatly to the point that the King of France is desperate to marry Eleanor.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah, God damn right.

[Dan Snow]

Because that brings Aquitaine, in a real sense, into that royal family, not just in that vague sense, but like, let's bond two people. The Prince of France, the heir to the throne of France, and Eleanor together. And then from then on, those lands will actually be part of that kind of royal French kingdom.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Exactly. So, you know, when Eleanor's father dies, she becomes the hottest ticket in Europe, and basically the king locks that down immediately. He's like, oh, that's great. You're gonna marry my son Louis. They're all named Louis. We're in a very deep Louis, Louis period of time, let's just say. And so it's basically within days. And there is a Real danger here, because if you can kidnap Eleanor and marry her, then you get hold of all this land. So the French king is like, we're not playing that game. She's marrying my son. But one of the things that they do manage to negotiate here, which is quite interesting, is Eleanor is able to say, well, these are my lands until such time as I give birth to a son, and then my lands will pass to my son. And so as far as the king of France is concerned, she's like, oh, well, that's kind of fine, because it'll be my son. Yeah, exactly. So they'll be like, that's my grandson. That's great. It brings it under the auspices of the French crown eventually. But it doesn't quite work out like that for Eleanor and Louis.

[Dan Snow]

Okay.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

So in the first place, Eleanor kind of gets up to Paris, and she's like, wow, you live like this. Like, this is crazy. Louis, the dauphin, is by all accounts, quite a boring guy.

[Dan Snow]

And what age are we at the moment?

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

We're teenagers.

[Dan Snow]

We're teenagers.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

We're teenagers.

[Dan Snow]

Okay, so Louis. Boring.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

He's boring.

[Dan Snow]

He's a little bit wet.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah. And he's, like, really religious. Like, he really, really buys into it you. That's his whole thing. And it takes a long time for Eleanor to get pregnant as a result of this. Now, that might just be that, you know, she's quite young, and these things are difficult. It might be that Louis is too busy praying. We don't exactly know.

[Dan Snow]

There are a lot of days, if you're being strictly religious, there are lot of days in which you're not supposed to.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

You're not supposed to do it. Yeah, exactly. So I would probably argue that it is just quite difficult to get pregnant if you are doing everything correctly. Okay. You're not allowed to be shagging on a Saturday, for example.

[Dan Snow]

No Saturdays.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

No Saturdays. No Sundays. No. No Wednesdays. No Friday. Yeah. Well, Wednesday's a confession day.

[Dan Snow]

Is it?

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah. So, you know, and even if you're not confessing, you can't be going, doing all that Friday again. Confession day Saturday. You're still gonna be too turned on when you're in mass on Sunday.

[Dan Snow]

Ready? You're building up to mass.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah. So you gotta. You know, basically, it's like, Mondays are nothing.

[Dan Snow]

Mondays.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

So, you know, it's one of those, you know, not during Lent, not during Advent, blah, blah, blah. So no Advent either. No Advent you're supposed to be thinking about.

[Dan Snow]

Okay. So, yeah. So it's difficult. So they don't have. They have any kids?

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

They do eventually have two daughters.

[Dan Snow]

Okay.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

You know, eventually we prove that Eleanor can get pregn, but the sons simply aren't forthcoming. But by this point in time, the marriage is incredibly rocky anyway. Louis is kind of an idiot. He's constantly getting in fights with the church. You know, he wants to put key figures in positions of power. He wants to choose bishops. The church is less just classic medieval stuff. Oh, God.

[Dan Snow]

Classic.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

It's just the thing that is done at the time. So Eleanor often has to intercede. She's got to go, like, do incredibly funny things with Saint Bernard of Clairvaux, who is working for the church at the time. Like, she has to kind of go in and pretty cry in front of him, being like, my husband, he just doesn't listen to me. And I'm just a girl. She basically has to iron all these things out, which is classic queen stuff.

[Dan Snow]

So she's highly educated and she's playing a part in the politics of France already. No question.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Obviously.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah, yeah, right. So she's an important political figure. Okay, then, like all relationships, they test it by going on some rugged foreign travel.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

That is right. That's right.

[Dan Snow]

Tell me what happens.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Well, they decide that they are going to go on crusades. Wow. Rather the done thing at the time. This is the second Crusade, so it turns out. Stop me if you heard this one before, but it's really difficult to maintain taking over a part of the Middle east when you're not from there. Right, Okay. I know that sounds wild.

[Dan Snow]

And the locals do not want you there.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah. It's funny that they didn't love a whole bunch of Normans coming and taking over. Wasn't.

[Dan Snow]

So First Crusade is against all the odds. Very successful. They captured Jerusalem, they established these crusader Christian kingdoms in what is now Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, that kind of area. And then it becomes the job of the Muslim neighbors to get rid of those guys.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Exactly. And so, you know, it turns out it's a lot easier to do that if you already live there and you don't have to have everyone get on a boat and come on over. But Eleanor and Louis, they rise to the occasion. Right. They rise to the call. The papacy is really keen on sending people over. And, you know, Louis is religious. Right, Louis. Louis is a really religious guy, and he feels moved to take part in this.

[Dan Snow]

And why does Eleanor.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Well, you know, for Eleanor, this is also an opportunity to flex her own political muscles, like, partially. You kind of need to stay with your husband in order to get pregnant quite famously. But also she Leads her own army. So she leads her own contingent from Aquitaine. And so she's like, well, this is what I'm going to do. Yeah. Well, my husband's going over as the King of France. I'm going over as the Duchess of Aquitaine.

[Dan Snow]

Really? So she's very keen to carve out her own separate role. That's amazing.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah, it's really interesting at the time, and it was remarkable. People were very impressed by this. When Louis, Eleanor end up at the court of Constantinople, everyone goes gaga for Eleanor. They're like, awooga. In the first place, they're like, hot babe came over and they talk about her as being a new Amazonian queen. They love this in Constantinople. They're like, this is exactly what I love to see. Fantastic work. Eleanor. What an incredible babe. And they talk about how smart she is and how she really seems to be the one with a vision of what to do. And that is probably not such a surprise because she's got an uncle over in the Holy Land.

[Dan Snow]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

So she's got an uncle over in Antioch, and she's been in quite constant contact with him back and forth. So her idea is, well, I'm going to be bringing over the contingents of Aquitaine, and I am going to be sort of upholding the legacy of my uncle, and we are going to get his lands back in this way over there. And that tends to put a strain on the marriage. So Louis pouting already. Because at Constantinople, no one cares about Louis. They're like, yeah, also some guy, like a drip, right? Real wet blanket. And he gets kind of overly highfalutin ideas of what he's gonna do, which is like, surprise. A king thinks that he's capable of more than he is. Like, I can't imagine how that happened. Right. But Eleanor is kind of like, let's go see my Uncle Raymond. We're gonna take back Antioch. And then we are going to assess the situation and see what can be accomplished. Louis's like, oh, we're retaking Jerusalem.

[Dan Snow]

Right. Interesting.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

That's what we're doing. And it's just not feasible with what they have got going. But because of how sources work at the time and the way people feel about certain things, the failure of the Second Crusade is kind of blamed on Eleanor because you know how women are.

[Dan Snow]

Okay.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

I mean, it's kind of bonkers at the end. You know, sometimes we think that the way that people talk about Eleanor leading an army is specifically to denigrate her and specifically to say that the reason this failed is That a woman and

[Dan Snow]

a woman in shop.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

There are all these rumors about, like, oh, well, the procession of the soldiers is slowed down because Eleanor has too much luggage. You know, like she brought. Oh, you know, has women be shopping, women be over packing. You know, things like this. And so they're like, oh, yeah. And that slowed the baggage train down. When in reality, Louis is kind of like going out in front when Eleanor's like, hold up, hold up, hold up. You need to. We're trying to climb over some mountains here with a bunch of people. And essentially the army gets routed. They're split into too many pieces, and nobody knows what they're doing. Right. Because this is always going to be the trouble with Crusade. If you genuinely believe in your heart that you've been called by God and you are blessed by the oversight of the Lord, the idea that you could lose a battle is a little bit more difficult. Right, okay.

[Dan Snow]

And so the crusader disaster, we shouldn't be super surprised by that because there were about eight or nine Crusades, and seven or eight of them were disasters.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

That's right. That's right.

[Dan Snow]

Okay. So we shouldn't be too hard nailed here. But as ever, being part of a routed army, straggling across a brutal landscape, harried on all sides, it's gonna make or break a relationship. And it definitely breaks them.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Oh, it breaks them. They hate each other. And basically, at this point in time, Eleanor is like, I am done. We're gonna get back to wherever it is we need to get to in Europe. And we are getting divorced. So she begins to write to the Papacy and says, wow, it's crazy. Cause this guy's my co. And which he is. He's like her second cousin. But, you know, gosh, everyone who's royal or noble in Europe is a second cousin, third cousin. And this will go on for quite some time.

[Dan Snow]

So it's a good, easy get out clause.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah, exactly. And so the church doesn't love this, because the church doesn't love divorce. But on the other hand, Eleanor is a force to be reckoned with. If she's sort of asked for this thing, then fine. There aren't any sons yet. So it's kind of easier to break them up at this point. And to a certain extent, the church is like, well, let's get Louis with someone more tractable. Let's get Louis together with someone that we feel we can have a little bit more control over. So the church says, yeah, fine, your cousins, that's great. So they get back to Europe after quite Some time they are blown off course, they divorce. And the first thing that Eleanor has to do now is get hold of a new husband because there are multiple kidnapping attempts on her when she gets back. Because people are like, I will take the largest landholder in France, thank you very much. I will forcibly marry her against her will. Yep, don't care about that. But Eleanor's got a plan, right? And Eleanor's plan involves a young king named Henry.

[Dan Snow]

And this is a thunderbolt. This is one of the biggest blindsides in medieval history.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

It is absolutely wild because Henry is a teenager, right? And Eleanor is in her later twenties at this point in time.

[Dan Snow]

So Henry's a teenager. He is also the hated king of England.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

That is right. Well, Eleanor doesn't want to be not a queen. Come on. And also, you know, Eleanor hates her ex. And so it's like she kind of goes out of her way to find the person that would piss Louis off the most. And she knows Henry has the hots for her because they've met on several occasions before, you know, doing queenly, kingly things. And he was very clearly like a wooga at her. So I mean, this is the equivalent of like the pinup you keep on your wall as a teenager saying, hey, you want to get married? It would be like if Sydney Sweeney asked a 16 year old boy to marry her now, right? And so he's like, hell yeah, let's get this done immediately. And they marry and there isn't really anything that anyone can do about it. Ironically, Henry and Eleanor are more closely related than Eleanor and Louis were. But, you know, Eleanor wants to do this, so it's kind of fine.

[Dan Snow]

So the woman who was Queen of France ditches her husband and marries the Queen of England. Astonishing. But even more astonishing, in doing so, she takes with her all of her own land to add it to those of her new English husband.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Exactly. There were no sons. There were no sons in her marriage to Louis. And so all of those lands revert to her. Now Louis is fuming. He is absolutely fuming. But there's also nothing you can do because it's very difficult for us to kind of understand now. But what Henry controls and what Eleanor controls is like most of them.

[Dan Snow]

This is so important. This is the marriage, a love match, but also one of the biggest power hookups in history. Right. Because England ends up with this vast empire. Eleanor and Henry end up with this vast empire. So talk me through the Plantagenet lands. Well, England and Wales, we've got.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah, we've got England And Wales. So basically, most.

[Dan Snow]

Well, I say, like, it's lots of Wales as independent, but there's little encroachments.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Obviously the Welsh are not happy about it. There is some like ongoing tit for tat, but for the most part, the English are subjugating them. At the very least, they are.

[Dan Snow]

And in fact, Henry would have argued he's overlord of Scotland as well. But critically for this point, Dukes of Normandy, thanks. Their forebear, William the Conqueror.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

And Normandy is really large at the time. It goes out onto the Brittany peninsula. You know, we've got Calais. We certainly have. And for all intents and purposes, they are still quite Norman, the English. They're speaking French at home. They're like, English. Who is she? I don't know.

[Dan Snow]

So this new power couple control. Directly control a lot more of France, for example, than the King of France.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Oh, God, yeah, absolutely. Who's her ex husband, which is absolutely bizarre. And then they also have a little bite out of Eastern Ireland as well. Well, that's, you know. But fundamentally they've kind of taken over Dublin and the areas around there. So this is tons of land, you know. So you are the King of England. Absolutely. Every single king. When they are putting down what their titles are on any document, it'll always say Rex Anglorum, the King of the English. And the second thing it always says is Dux Normanorum and the Duke of the Normans. And then now Henry can slap Dux aqua tenorum as well on there. And this is a huge amount of land. It's such a large amount of land that as you've already mentioned, we now tend to refer to this as the Angevin Empire because these are wildly disparate groups of people who speak different languages, have different cultures, really see the world in differing ways that are all controlled by one family. Yeah.

[Dan Snow]

And long time listeners and viewers of this podcast will know that I am very nostalgic for the Angevin Empire.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Me too.

[Dan Snow]

I would love to live in a country that stretched from the wilds of the north all the way down to La Rochelle, down to the Pyrenees. We could just travel around anyway, I won't get stuck in.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Listen, you know, the beer is great up north, the wine is great down south.

[Dan Snow]

I got everything.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

The crack is altogether mighty. So it is, I think, that we will all find. So, you know, you've got some of the best cultures in Europe hanging out and doing their thing.

[Dan Snow]

And this couple are now ruling over the Angevin Empire. And also another, maybe a tough hit for Their ex husband, Eleanor, has lots and lots of kids. So many kids, Lots of lusty sons.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Oh, my goodness. So you know that Louis is absolutely fuming because basically the kids start coming thick and fast. She immediately, immediately has several sons. So we get three sons basically right off the bat. So she's got two daughters with Louis.

[Dan Snow]

So she's got these two daughters.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

And now, unfortunately, because of the way that divorce works in the Middle Ages Ages, they stay with their father. You know, they are French princesses, to be fair. So obviously they are going to be brought up at the French court. Most Frenchly, they do stay in good contact with their mother. They have a lot of letters written back and forth, and we do know that that is a relationship which is sustained, but they are never going to live with their mother at court again.

[Dan Snow]

Okay, and these sons, by the way, this is what the rest of this podcast is going to be about.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah. Oh, God. Oh, Lord, we have so many sons. So first of all, we get the young Henry because obviously, you know, so

[Dan Snow]

the oldest one dies young.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah, we have William Henry here always, always in our hearts. But then we get. Then we get the young Henry, who. We call him the young Henry very specifically, because when you control this much land, Henry the king is very keen to make sure that his son Henry is understood as the heir apparent to the kingdom. And also, you've got to understand that Henry II is crowned king as a result of the ending of a period that we refer to as the anarchy Civil war. Yeah, exactly. So for him, the most important thing is that everybody understands what the line of succession is. So Henry the young king is crowned quite young while his father is still ruling the kingdom technically, just so that everybody knows where this is going.

[Dan Snow]

He's like a pretend king. He's got a court and he's got it, but he doesn't actually rule anything.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Exactly.

[Dan Snow]

Glamorous guy.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah, hot.

[Dan Snow]

Good at jousting tournaments.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

He is very much. I liken him to kind of like a rugby boy now where, like, his thing is jousting. He's doing the circuit around Europe. Everybody loves him. Everyone loves it when the young king shows up. He's a real glamorous sort.

[Dan Snow]

Rides with a pretty strong crew. Best buddies with William the marshal, that is.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Right. So he spends rather a lot of time with the French princes and these sorts of things. And so he's actually not bad at playing the political game with other people at his level. You know, his father is actually rather a good king, so he doesn't have a whole Lot to do around the shot. Yeah, exactly.

[Dan Snow]

Then we got Richard, surviving son number two.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

That's right.

[Dan Snow]

Nickname, the Lionheart. Ah.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Cordelian. One of our worst kings, but we don't need to come into that. All that. Yeah.

[Dan Snow]

Kicks ass.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Oh, yeah. And so he is very much a mama's boy. He is Eleanor's favorite by all accounts, and he is very specifically raised as though he is going to take over Aquitaine.

[Dan Snow]

Okay.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

So he is with his mother constantly. He is off and down in Poitiers.

[Dan Snow]

She likes staying down there, does she?

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah, she does. So she's back and forth, you know, and who could blame her? Who can blame her? Who can blame her? So he is very much raised to understand that he is going to take over Aquitaine when the time comes. So he is very much raised in this particularized position, and that involves just

[Dan Snow]

fighting all the time, because those nobles down there are wild.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Oh, they are fracturous. And obviously, now that the French king is not married to Eleanor, there is rather a lot of attempting to bite into the land. So there's a lot of back and forth. Who owns what, Castles.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah. Nobles switching sides. So while Henry is being glamorous, Richard's actually doing the job. He's ruler. Okay. We also shouldn't remember they have daughters, all of whom have very advantageous marriages. People talk about Queen Victoria, Grandmother of Europe. I mean, Eleanor is absolutely doing that

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

in this scene, 100%. And by all accounts, all of her daughters are really on top of. These are incredibly bright women who go on to be incredible rulers of their own genesis.

[Dan Snow]

Holy Roman Empire.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Oh, God. Yeah. You know, they're marrying into Spain, they're marrying into the Holy Roman Empire. They are doing really great things, and they're all quite clever.

[Dan Snow]

So forget Victoria. This is the real grandmother of your family.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Absolutely.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah. Okay, we get son Geoffrey here, who, again, is parceled out a little bit of this big empire as well.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah, absolutely. So Geoffrey is also being trained to understand that he is going to be more involved in, like, Normandy, for example. We have to understand that, yeah, primogeniture exists. This idea that, like, you know, you inherit your father's lands. Right. But also, there's limitations to that. The Angevin Empire as a concept is incredibly new. You're not just going to hand it all to Henry. You're not just going to say, oh, here, go ahead and take it. They're like, to be fair, this is rather a lot of land to keep together.

[Dan Snow]

Unwieldy.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah. And, you know, this way, it's hoped that maybe your sons won't be at each other's throats. Here's your land. Here's your land.

[Dan Snow]

Good luck with that.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

And fundamentally, you know, like Normandy, that's not a bad. Right? That's. Yeah, we love to see it. So.

[Dan Snow]

And that includes, as you say, Brittany and stuff that.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yep.

[Dan Snow]

You listen to Dan Snow's history. Don't go anywhere. There's more to come. This episode is sponsored by Momentous. When people talk about energy recovery and performance, what do they usually overlook? Gut, health, and more specifically, fiber. I didn't always think that much beyond staying regular, but once I focused on gut health, I noticed the difference in my energy and focus. That's what I like. Momentous Fiber Plus. It's built on a simple idea. If your foundation isn't solid, nothing else works as well. Fiber plus is a 3 in 1 formula with soluble and insoluble Fiber Plus, a prebiotic research starch supporting digestion, gut, bacteria and steady energy. It feels very different from just adding fiber, let me tell you, it's supporting the whole system. And like everything Momentous makes, it's clean, science backed and rigorously tested. Momentous Fiber plus get the fundamentals right Right now, Momentous is offering our listeners up to 35% off your first order with promo code DAN SNOW. Head to livemomentous.com and use promo code DAN SNOW for up to 35 percent off your first order. That's livemomentous.com promo code DAN Snow

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

hi,

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[Dan Snow]

Now, we come with enormous reluctance. We come to this young gentleman, John.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

John.

[Dan Snow]

John Prince John.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah. Lackland.

[Dan Snow]

Lackland. Soft sword. Well, we'll get to soft sword, but he lacks land because he doesn't get anything in this big.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

No, he's too young. He's sort of come along a little bit too late. I mean, this is son number four that they've got, and he's kid number eight. It's just like a whole handful of kids. So as a result, they don't really know what to do with him. Now, he's Henry's favorite, so. So which, you know, that's where the problem. This is where the problem lies. So he kind of goes around with his father all the time, and we've got the derogatory Lackland for him. But also one of the things that we know is that this causes a lot of tension with people because basically Henry will show up with little John in tow and he'll say, oh, oh, nice. Be a shame if someone's son inherited it. And so he's kind of constantly biting off smaller pieces of other people's lands to roll over to Jon and turn into something.

[Dan Snow]

And now if there was any justice in this world, which there is not, no, that is the end we would ever have heard of Young Prince John, 8th kid, one of the old royal also rans. But sadly, you'll be hearing a lot more about Jon as this conversation goes on. Because there is no justice in this world. No, the empire is unwieldy, right? Yep. These sons, they rebel against that.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Oh, yeah, they absolutely do. And so by the time that John is born, Eleanor's done. Eleanor's done with having all these kids. This is kid number 10. Let us keep in mind. And the marriage between Henry and Eleanor is now strange. They have got on for quite some time, but, you know, Eleanor and Henry are no longer getting on in the way that they once did. And Eleanor is like, yeah, this is real cute. You'll find me in Poitiers. Now, whether or not this is entirely amicable, we can only speculate at. We know that by this time, Henry is taking up with several hot young things. So he has a very prominent girlfriend, Rosamund Clifford, who is a celebrated beauty. She kind of takes over as Henry's date to occasions in England. Eleanor doesn't seem too cut up about it. Eleanor's like, yeah, wow, that's wild. Anyway, you will find me in France. Goodbye. I do not really need to be sitting around in a soggy salad bowl all day. I could be off having a lovely time at my own court with my son and, yeah, have a girlfriend. That's wild. Bye. Great. It wouldn't be the first time that English kings had very prominent mistresses. So that's fine. Then we have these revolts of the sons. Now, we do tend to think that maybe Eleanor is involved with this. It could be that she doesn't like her husband very much, and who would blame her, you know, with that? I kind of tend to think that she's like, yeah, sure, roll the dice. Like, who cares? Right? Henry, the young king, resents his father because he feels as though he has not been given enough to do. Right. Richard's got stuff to do down in Aquitaine. Henry does have the tournament circuit, but he's like, it does seem to me that I should be doing some work if I'm going to end up being the king. We do have also Geoffrey, who is sort of like, yeah, sure, why not, like, rebel against our father? That sounds fun. So they all get together and they begin an open rebellion against their father, which go so. So, yeah, let's just say that. So it causes a lot of strife. Obviously, no one is quite sure whose side to be on, but Henry is fundamentally. He is a pretty good king.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah. Life in the old dog.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah, exactly. So he manages to sort of trounce his sons also as a part of this, Eleanor ends up getting kidnapped. I swear, this woman has been kidnapped more than anyone in her life. Now, what happens next is the. That Eleanor gets brought back to England as a prisoner in some style. Let's just say that she is still fundamentally the queen of England. You can't, like, throw her in a jail. And so she gets taken to one of her very, very Favorite castles, which is just outside of Salisbury, Old Sarum. And they're basically like, you are under house arrest. Right. Eleanor not a huge fan of this. Obviously, she would rather be in Poitier. Obviously, she would rather be doing her. Her thing. And she loses the ability to regulate her own lands. But as part of this, Henry forgives the sons.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

And so this could be something that Eleanor negotiates. I would argue, you know, I don't think that she wanted to be taken captive at all whatsoever. But seeing how the cards have been laid out, I do think that she says, look, you've got me banged to rights. Yes, I was encouraging our sons to rebel against you, but you've got me. And so a great thing that you could do just for the stability of everything is you could just let the boys go. You've got me. Blame it on me. And everybody loves to blame a woman. Right. So basically, Eleanor goes to jail, and the boys kind of get on with their life. They will do some light rebelling. They will rebel again against their father continuously. And, you know, their mom is locked off. And you got to understand, if you're Richard, he doesn't like this. He loves his mom. He wants his mom back, and he really, really hates this. But for Henry, basically, what Henry gets is more money. His dad is like, don't you love the tournaments? And he's like, oh, yeah, I do love tournaments. And his dad is like, well, what if I, like, doubled your tournament budget?

[Dan Snow]

All the glamour.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah. And Henry's like, more money, you say? Like, well, I'll be off with the boys. Fine. Poor Jeffrey is kind of like the one who doesn't get a whole lot out of this. But what will end up happening is now a series of deaths in the way that there is. And it's all dysentery all the way down, which is. No one ever talks about dysentery because it's really unpleasant. But on campaign against their father, first, Henry dies.

[Dan Snow]

Henry, the young king, dies.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Rip to a real one. This is a really interesting sliding doors moment, I think. I really wonder what it would have been like if he'd managed to take over. But the dysentery will get you.

[Dan Snow]

Wash your hands, boys.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Do it.

[Dan Snow]

And Henry I fifth. He washed his hands. None of us would be in this mess.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Exactly. Anyway, so Henry first gets taken out. That leaves Geoffrey. Geoffrey's still rebelling against his father because Geoffrey is like, well, I don't see any reason to stop this. He gets dysentery. This is a really sad one. Because his father is on campaign against him in the French lands at this point in time. And he writes to his dad and says, dad, I'm on my deathbed and I'm really sorry about all this and I just want us to get right. Before I die, Henry thinks it's like a trap and doesn't go to see his son. And so Geoffrey dies. And I find that, like, really quite heart wrenching because we do have the correspondence where he's like, I just want to see my dad one more time.

[Dan Snow]

And this is the weird thing. This is not like a family of people who are rebelling against each other, but actually have no. There's a real humanity. Like when they get back together after these bouts of rebellion, they seem really happy, don't they? Like it's a genuine family and yet they're going after each other.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

It's weird. I tell you what, like, money messes people up. That's all I can say about more money.

[Dan Snow]

More problems, lads.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah. And so at this point in time, that means that now the crown has passed to Richard, which nobody saw coming, least of all him, he's not particularly interested in all of this.

[Dan Snow]

He wants to be crusading.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Oh, God, yeah. And this is basically, he's like, well, I guess that I am the heir apparent. And Henry almost immediately dies after this.

[Dan Snow]

Yes, we should say then Henry II dies whilst campaigning against Richard, by the way, And Henry dies a broken man.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Dan Snow]

Everyone abandons it. So sad.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

It is really sad and it is a really ignominious end to what I would argue is one of the best kings England ever saw. I mean, has his problems interpersonal, but he does a great job of actually ruling England, which his son's not so

[Dan Snow]

much his forebears and his son's not so much. So he dies abandoned by his courtiers, his son besieging him almost. Are they briefly reconciled right at the end?

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah, I think it's very right at the end. Basically, when Richard sees where the wind is blowing, he realizes his dad is going to die. There's kind of like a tearful, like, I love you, Papa, and he dies.

[Dan Snow]

So Richard is now unexpectedly king of the whole shooting match, the whole Angevin empire. The first thing he does is let

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

his mum out of jail because he loves her so much. And it's hilarious, the story is that the first thing he does is say, let my mum go. And he sends people messengers. They're charging through the night on horses, on boats to get to Sarum, and they get there And Eleanor's like, hey, let my son.

[Dan Snow]

Oh, really?

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah. Because she a hundred percent was like, we all know where this is going. Henry's dead. You know, Henry's dead. What, you think that Richard isn't going to let me out? So she is able to walk free. Now what Richard decides to do is go on crusade. He's always wanted to go on crusade. He, you know, has grown up at his mother's knee sort of hearing about this. And he is a real guy's guy. He likes being on campaign, you know, a bike.

[Dan Snow]

Well, listen, they're the rumors.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

These are the rumors, right? So we know that he has some illegitimate children. So can't be disinterested in the ladies. But, you know, he's not disinterested in the guys either. And, you know, I simply love to see it. I love to see, like, you know, he's just got some very close friends who he's always on campaign with. And, you know, baby, help yourself, treat yourself. This is absolutely fine with me. We like it, you know. So he decides that the thing that he's going to do is he's going to levy a big tax on England, which is called the Salad Saladin tithe, because we are obviously off to fight Saladin over in the Middle east, the

[Dan Snow]

great Muslim warlord who's threatening all of the Christian castles left in the Holy

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Land, which also, weirdly, like, the Christians love. It's the strangest thing. It's like they've got this real love hate relationship with Saladin. They're like, oh, well, we really should be controlling the Holy Land. But they're like, oh, isn't he great? Very romantic figure, Saladin. So Richard is like, well, that's what this world needs is a guy to go over and sort this out. And I think that he has, like, this real, real chivalric idea about grandiose men fighting each other on. And then he's like, well, the biggest landover in England should.

[Dan Snow]

I'm the champion of Christendom. He's the champion of Islam.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

So we're gonna, we're gonna sort it all out once and for all. So basically, he levies this huge tithe on England and it's like, sayonara, suckers, I'll never see you again. I mean, this man came to England like four times altogether. And mostly it was because his dad said something and then to, like, get a bunch of money. And he did not speak English. He did not particularly care about English. You know, he was really raised to understand himself as part of the French milieu.

[Dan Snow]

And that's why there's a gigantic statue of him outside the House of Parliament in London.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Exactly.

[Dan Snow]

It's a confusing one.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Well, it is a confusing one. But, you know, partially, I think, of what was going on here is one of the reasons he could go on crusade is because he knew that he could just sort of, like, leave his mum in charge.

[Dan Snow]

Okay.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

So he leaves a council of regents, which is, like, a lot of the worthies of England in charge, like, very ambitious, bigger landowners. His mom is overseeing it, and he's like, well, Lord knows she knows how to rule the kingdom, so that's fine. So I can just.

[Dan Snow]

Just quickly, is this unusual in medieval history, or are there other examples of powerful women born at the right time in the right place? For sure. Being regents, exercising actual political power in their own right.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Oh, absolutely. So, you know, for.

[Dan Snow]

So it's not super unusual.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

It's not super unusual. We tend to think of it as unusual, but it happens. So, for example, now, granted, we did have the anarchy about it, but fundamentally, Richard's grandmother, Matilda, was Argu, arguably Queen of England. She had been the Holy Roman Empress. There is this understanding that you can leave women in charge.

[Dan Snow]

William the Conqueror left his wife to run the show. Oh, yeah. Well, Henry I's wife used to do lots of stuff.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

This is why you marry other royals and nobles, is because they are trained to understand how kingdoms are run and people need to go on. Maybe not necessarily crusade, but men are often awake.

[Dan Snow]

They're very busy.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah.

[Dan Snow]

So, you know, hunting with the boys, upcountry. Ah.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

You know, like, they're doing a lot of things, and so they move around a lot, and someone has to do the work around here. So is it weird to ask your mom to do it? Yeah. But he basically ends up going over to the Middle east again. Spoiler alert. Third Crusade.

[Dan Snow]

Look, whole other series of podcasts to be done here. Third Crusade, not so much.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Doesn't go particularly well. He ends up getting married sort of as he's on his way over, because his mom is like, listen, I understand that you're not particularly interested in being the King of England, but you are, and we're going to need some kids out of you. So here's your wife. And he's like, wow, that's crazy. Anyway, bye. Like, I'm off to the Holy Land. On his way back. On his way back.

[Dan Snow]

He wins a few battles. He establishes a bit. He boosts his reputation.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah.

[Dan Snow]

He doesn't succeed in what he didn't retake Jerusalem. He didn't.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

No. And there are some rumors.

[Dan Snow]

Okay?

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

There's some rumors in the Holy Land, right? So now Jerusalem is never retaken. But everyone is like, it is so obvious that we are going to take. Retake Jerusalem. We should elect a new king of Jerusalem. And Richard's like, yeah, we should do that. And they're like, oh, honey, we weren't talking about you. So there was some pouting on Richard's part about the fact that there is a new king of Jerusalem that is not him. Then the King of Jerusalem is mysteriously killed by an assassin. And I mean, an OG assassin. I mean, a hashashin who is schooled by the old man in the mountain and had, like, comes down and kills him. And Richard's like, that's crazy. Wow. Anyway, I gotta go. And everyone is like, richard killed this guy. Right.

[Dan Snow]

Okay.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

And, like. And it is believed by the French and the Holy Roman imperial representatives in the Holy Land that Richard hired an assassin. We cannot say for sure who killed who. I'm going to be real with you. But on the ground, individuals blamed Richard for this. And Richard was like, well, I got to go, you know? And then also, the timings are suspicious.

[Dan Snow]

Right.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

So Richard then takes off. Richard, on the way home, is then kidnapped, trapped by one of the dukes of the Holy Roman Empire. Now, there was some bad blood between them when Richard went over, because, for example, they squabbled. Yeah. When Richard showed up, Homie had control of a castle and was, like, flying his own flag. And Richard was like, you're not a king. You shouldn't fly your.

[Dan Snow]

Take your flag down.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah. And then they were like, oh, don't take my flag down.

[Dan Snow]

It is actually pathetic.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah. It is like a flag fight between rich boys and his. Pathetic. He then kidnaps Richard and is like, you're responsible for several things. And Richard is like, how dare you? How dare you? But everyone kind of hates Richard eventually. The Pope doesn't think that you should go around kidnapping the King of England. The Pope does excommunicate his kidnapper, but then Richard is given over to the Holy Roman Emperor. And the Holy Roman Emperor is like, eleanor, come get your trash, son. And they levy an absolutely insane ransom. And Eleanor has got to go around all of the lands to get this money together, which she does. It's crazy. It's like 10,000 pounds, which is a lot. It's like saying, like, $100 billion. Right. It's crazy stuff. So Eleanor manages to do it. She has to go around, beg, borrow, and steal Levy all kinds of taxes. She gets the money together and she gets Richard out. And I think that this is really one of the most interesting parts of their relationship because a, we see what Eleanor is willing to to do for her children. We also see what Eleanor is capable of. Even in these circumstances when Richard is at his lowest possible ebb, people are still willing to bet on this family. Yeah, they're still willing to say, okay, yeah, like, go get your son, even when people don't like him. And, you know, the Holy Roman Empire is very happy to have quite a lot of money as a result of this. And very tellingly, when he lets Richard out, he writes letters to his underlings saying, the devil is loose. Look to yourself for safety. And so this is an indication of what Richard is capable of. He is very much seen as someone who is a worthy adversary and someone who might come and mess with you. And he celebrates getting out by immediately messing with all the other.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah, you listen to Dan Snow's history.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

It.

[Dan Snow]

Thank you, Vaposters here. There's more coming.

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[Dan Snow]

And the king of France has been nibbling away at their lands. And Richard goes on the tear. Reconquers basically has to reconquer his mom and dad's big empire and does it he does it. His mum helping. They manage to do it. And then Richard besieging some useless little

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Blackwater, tiny little castle, and he gets got by a 14 year old with a crossbow.

[Dan Snow]

Boom. Right in the shoulder.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

To Richard's credit, Richard was like, fair play. I've been shot by a 14 year old and I'm dying. Because basically, he dies of sex.

[Dan Snow]

Hideously. Slow down.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

It's really. It's horrible. And one of the things that Richard says is leave that little 14 year old alone. Like, fair play. Do they leave the little 14 year old alone? They do not. They kill him horribly. But actually, I think it really says something about Richard. I like that anecdote.

[Dan Snow]

That was good.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

And I think it's like a little chapeau moment where he kind of says, don't do that. But anyway, he's dead one way or another.

[Dan Snow]

Now we face a terrible decision. So the grandees get together. Talk to me about Eleanor's role here. We should say, by the way, at this point that Geoffrey, his brother, is dead. So. So, in fact, all the brothers are now together.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

We got no brothers.

[Dan Snow]

There's no brothers left.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

We're out of brothers. Except.

[Dan Snow]

Except Jon, this guy. We're in the dregs of the Plantagenet family now. But Geoffrey has had a son called Arthur, hasn't he?

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

He has.

[Dan Snow]

So there's a nephew.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

So in theory. In theory, really, Arthur should be the king. If what we're doing is straight succession, primogeniture, oldest son, and then their kids get it. But the ground is super shaky here. Eleanor, again, incredibly canny, understands what has happened before. This is part of what the problem was with the succession underneath. The anarchy, right, is it's like, well, who's going to rule what? Having a tiny child as the king, when everything has been in flux, Richard has just had to go and reconquer a bunch of the territory. And Frank, France doesn't look great. So instead they decide to roll the dice and put John, who is an adult, on the third. Like, this is what's going for him. He's an adult.

[Dan Snow]

His mom and dad's blood in his veins. He's an adult. And he can breathe. Yes, that's really it. It.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

And I think that this is an important point, though, because people tend to think that there is one way that people become kings in the Middle Ages and it's just kind of. Yeah, straight primogeniture. You follow this line down. That's just not how things work. Decisions are being made all the time in Terms of who can rule when and why. And if you accept that and just go with it, it explains a lot more later on.

[Dan Snow]

And is Eleanor now older stateswoman? She's critical in this, right?

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Oh, God, yes. Because Eleanor is also kind of thinking, well, I don't know how much more life I've got in me. She's constantly trying to retire. Retire. She is constantly trying to go away to the convent that she wishes to retire to and kind of like being like pulled back in. So she's really frustrated by this. And I think one of the things that goes on here is that Eleanor doesn't necessarily trust Arthur's mother to be the Queen Regent. And Eleanor says, well, you know, I can have a little bit more influence over Jon. Jon is an adult. Let's just roll the dice and see what we can do here. Maybe I can go back into retro a little bit more. She doesn't want to be in London doing all these things. She's old, you know, she's been a mother of 10, for God's sake. She just wants to have, like a well earned retirement doing what it is she wants to do. So for her, John looks a little bit more stable again. This is a sliding doors moment, who knows?

[Dan Snow]

And then, as with every succession, it's an opportunity for people to rebel, to steal some land and to cause some trouble. She ends up holding a car against forces loyal to her grandson. Arthur has got some rebel nobles to back him because there's always some of them. Of course. Of course there's a siege going on and she's in charge of this siege and she's how old? I mean, this is crazy.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

And this is the thing, is that this woman should be pretending to be a nun right now and instead she's having to do all this. She's having to hold castles, she's having to write letters, trying to garner support from other people. Her useless son John is being useless. It really is coming down to her to negotiate. And thank God it was because, you know, John, completely useless, can't keep a single thing together. But this just goes to show how fracturous things are and why she stayed involved as long as she did. Because you just simply cannot trust John

[Dan Snow]

with anything, including the safety of his nephew Arthur. So eventually this rebellion peters out. John gets custody of his nephew, this kid Arthur. And, you know, people talk about Richard the Third, but people should be talking about John. Among his many crimes. What happens to little Arthur?

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Well, nothing good is the answer. Something, something, something, death. Some things happen, some things Happen. And, you know, it is, again, one of these things where it's like, oh, wow, that's crazy. That kid's dead now. You know, side eye Now. Exactly what happened? It's difficult to say, but also, like, let us be so real here. Now, to be fair, children die all the time.

[Dan Snow]

Sure.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Children die all the time in the Middle Ages. Adults die all the time in the Middle Ages.

[Dan Snow]

Royal princes in the custody of their uncles die a lot.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

It's crazy how much royal princes die in the custody of their uncles. It's funny how that happens.

[Dan Snow]

So Arthur dead, possibly starved to death. We don't know.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah, it's not good. At the very least, what I tend to say is, at the very least, I would call it murder through neglect.

[Dan Snow]

Okay.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

That's what I would say.

[Dan Snow]

Okay. So Jon comes to the throne through murder through neglect. But Eleanor has married. In these dying years, she has managed to pass on that unwieldy empire to another son. So she and her husband have run it. It's gone through Richard. She's now managed to get into the hands of John. And at that point, sadly for the empire and everybody else, she checks out.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah, she does. She manages eventually to get back to her convent. She's been managing things for so long, like, you know, basically still overseeing every single one of her grandchildren, getting advantageous marriages. She gets kidnapped for a million more times, like, in the. And then she's like, I am done. It's nun time. And then she almost immediately croaks, which makes me really sad because I really wish that she had had the retirement she wanted at Fontevreau. Like, I really wish that she'd had a great couple of years where she could just relax and feel as though her work here was done, but her sons were so garbage.

[Dan Snow]

So she dies in 1204, just after a few months in retirement.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah.

[Dan Snow]

And interestingly, the empire falls apart within a few years of her death. Is that un unrelated?

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

No, 100%. It takes a force of will like hers, I would say, to keep that much land together. It's an absolute ton of land. And it isn't traditionally associated. There isn't anything like a network of people who are overseeing these lands underneath the auspices of the King of England. Right. Which is what we see over in the Holy Roman Empire. So you have, like, an emperor who rules everything, but the King of Bohemia is doing his thing, the Duke of Bavaria is doing his. You know, and everybody knows who they kick up to. This is something that takes a force of will and an incredibly Active, clever family to keep together. And, you know, you can say anything you want about Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine, but these are two incredibly intelligent people with a real force of will, and they were able to keep this going, but even then, they weren't able to keep it going without infighting, without some scrapping back and forth. So it's. It's just a lot of land to keep together. And especially it's a lot of land to keep together if you're not very bright.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah. And this is an important point is that you don't just call an army together. Everyone just goes, yes, sir, I'm right here. Individual barons need individual motivation. You know, you can gather a massive army if everyone kind of likes you, all of your underlings, but Jon will call and they just won't turn up. Oh, I'm so sorry. We had a few bridges blown out.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

They're like, oh, wow.

[Dan Snow]

Ooh, gosh.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yeah.

[Dan Snow]

Such a bad luck.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Oh, yeah, I didn't get your. For seven months. Which is also a viable thing to say.

[Dan Snow]

Exactly.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

In the Middle Ages, you know, when Eleanor comes calling, people just say, oh, Eleanor, great. Yeah, fantastic.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

You don't want to piss her off. When it's Jon, you actually do want to piss him off. You don't like that guy. Nobody likes that guy.

[Dan Snow]

So. And so Jon will be defeated in military campaigns. Well, frankly, every military campaign in the rest of his short life.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

This man cannot buy a win. It's ridiculous.

[Dan Snow]

And from France conquers Normandy, the ancestral heartlands of this family, which is really.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

That one hurts. That hurts. That really hurts. You know, they think of themselves as being Norman. And so for them, that is kind of like an existential problem. And it's something that we will see kings of England over and over again attempting to get this back.

[Dan Snow]

And when John dies, just over a decade after his mum, his empire, so large, is now a little slice of the East Midlands of England.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

It's so sad.

[Dan Snow]

But he dies of dysentery.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Yes. It's a familial hobby. They love to die of dysentery, these guys.

[Dan Snow]

And that is the end of this big trans channel, as you say. Lots and lots of their descendants will try and reconquer it and there'll be an ebb and flood. But this Angevin empire is a brief moment, and really, it is Elena's empire in some ways, isn't it? She makes that empire possible and she holds it together.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Absolutely. You know, she is the glue that is able to bring this hu. Portion of France under the control of the Crown. And it's her political nous that really allows her to do that. She understands not just how French people work, but how people in Aquitaine work. She has really close connections with her northern family in France, you know, her mother's family and the people who were kind of local around there. So she understands how to play people off against each other. She is very involved in English politics. She understands what makes the varying nobles their tick. And, you know, she can talk to Normans as well. So she's this real player who can move between worlds. And one of the issues with having a lot of sons, you know, good, healthy sons, is they were all kind of brought up to understand that they only had to do one thing. And, you know, John was brought up to understand that he was going to have to do question mark, like, who knows, you know? So, I mean, to an extent, it isn't surprising that he was such a bad king because he was not really brought up to be one. He never had the education. Education to do that. So it's a story that would differ if these men had managed to live. And I do think that they were doing the right thing. I do think that understanding you have this many sons and someone's going to have to have land, it was smart to kind of try to parcel things off. But who would know that you were only left with the runt of the

[Dan Snow]

litter, left with the worst one. Well, Eleanor, as I was expecting, that was a royal Tour de Florida about your namesake. Thank you very much for coming on the podcast.

[Dr. Elena Jarnegger]

Thank you so much. I will never, ever tire of talking about this woman.

[Dan Snow]

Thanks so much for listening, folks. Eleni Yarniger, what a phenomenon. So lucky to have her in the history at family. Don't forget to hit follow for more episodes of the podcast every week. And if you want more deep dives into this wild period of history, I've got a couple of excellent recommendations, if I do say so myself. In the show notes we've linked to our episode on Richard Lionheart, but also William the Marshal, which is possibly my favorite podcast I've ever done. I never thought I'd say that about the medieval period, but there we go. I'm an 18th century traitor. He's the greatest knight who ever lived. That's a fact, if you believe the biography commissioned by his sons. But, you know, I do. So there we go. He is the key person to get your head around. If you understand the Plantagenet period, you've got to check out that episode. Thank you very much for doing so. See you next time.

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[Dan Snow]

Have you been enjoying my podcast and now want even more history? Sign up to History and watch the world's best history documentaries on subjects like how William conquered England, what it was like to live in the Georgian era, and you can even hear the voice of Richard I iii. We've got hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, and there's always something more to discover. Sign up to join us in historic locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyit.com subscribe.