How did the Colonies win the American War of Independence?

Summary

Podcast Title: Dan Snow's History Hit
Episode: How did the Colonies win the American War of Independence?
Release Date: July 17, 2025

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Introduction to the American Revolutionary War

In this episode of Dan Snow's History Hit, host Dan Snow delves deep into the intricate dynamics of the American War of Independence, unraveling the strategic maneuvers, pivotal battles, and international alliances that culminated in the colonies' victory over one of the most formidable military powers of the time—the British Empire.

Causes of the War: British Empire vs. American Colonies

Dan Snow opens the discussion by contextualizing the war's origins, emphasizing the clash of imperial ambitions between Britain and its thirteen North American colonies. He highlights the colonial resistance against British taxation and regulatory policies, which stemmed from deep-seated desires for autonomy and self-governance.

Quote:
Dan Snow [08:13]: "It's a war about dealing with the messy endings of the previous war... Britain ends up with this massive, unexpected, very expensive, enormous North American empire stretches from Florida up to Hudson Bay."

Early Battles: Lexington & Concord, Siege of Boston

The narrative progresses to the initial skirmishes at Lexington and Concord in April 1775, marking the war's official commencement. These early confrontations showcased the colonists' willingness to resist and laid the groundwork for a protracted struggle.

Quote:
Christian Dropo [10:07]: "The Atlantic Ocean's a big disadvantage. The landscape, it just swallows up armies. It breaks armies."

Further, the Siege of Boston (April 1775 to March 1776) is discussed, where colonial forces, despite being outgunned, employed strategic raids and logistical ingenuity to weaken the British hold, ultimately forcing their evacuation.

Quote:
Jonathan Bratton [15:00]: "Washington gets a win, but it's not the win that he wants because no one respects a siege win."

Stages of the War: From Skirmishes to Global Conflict

As the war progressed, it evolved from localized battles to a global conflict involving multiple European powers. The entry of France in 1778, followed by Spain and the Dutch, transformed the war into a worldwide struggle, stretching British resources thin across various theaters.

Quote:
Dan Snow [33:41]: "This is when the Americans bring in foreign powers to fight them. They've made allies."

Pivotal Battles: Saratoga and Its Impact

One of the episode's focal points is the Battle of Saratoga in 1777, a turning point that not only bolstered American morale but also convinced France of the viability of the colonial cause. This victory demonstrated the effectiveness of American infantry tactics and highlighted British strategic miscalculations.

Quote:
Jonathan Bratton [32:07]: "It's a great own goal because it's the British. Whitehall's job to oversee a cohesive war plan."

French and Spanish Involvement: Turning the Tide

The alliance with France proved crucial. French military and naval support provided the necessary force to challenge British supremacy, particularly evident in the decisive Siege of Yorktown. Spain's involvement, though less direct, further complicated British efforts by opening additional fronts.

Quote:
Jonathan Bratton [33:50]: "The French are happy to send... they are going fight them."

The Siege of Yorktown: Decisive American Victory

Yorktown (September-October 1781) stands out as the climax of the Revolutionary War. General Cornwallis’s forces were besieged by a combined Franco-American army, while the French fleet blockaded British escape and reinforcement routes. This dual assault left the British with no viable options, leading to their surrender and effectively ending major hostilities.

Quote:
Dan Snow [41:18]: "The French navy turn up in force... the British retreat afterwards to go and repair their ships."

The Aftermath of the War: Treaty of Paris and Its Consequences

Though Yorktown marked the end of large-scale fighting, formal peace took two additional years to conclude with the Treaty of Paris in 1783. This treaty not only recognized American independence but also granted extensive territorial claims, setting the stage for future expansion and shaping the geopolitical landscape of North America.

Quote:
Jonathan Bratton [53:17]: "I don't think there was a time when the colonists knew they had won until it was actually done."

Reflections on Leadership and Strategy

Throughout the episode, Dan Snow and Jonathan Bratton critique British leadership and strategic decisions, pointing out flaws such as overextension, underestimation of colonial resilience, and failure to leverage international alliances effectively. Conversely, they commend American adaptability, strategic foresight, and the essential role of leadership figures like George Washington.

Quote:
Dan Snow [49:17]: "The British commanders are so frustrated... defeating an idea and a popular will."

Concluding Remarks: The Legacy of the Revolution

In closing, the episode reflects on the broader implications of the American victory. It underscores how the Revolutionary War not only birthed a new nation but also influenced global power dynamics, setting a precedent for future independence movements and shaping modern concepts of democracy and governance.

Quote:
Jonathan Bratton [50:53]: "The Declaration is a piece of propaganda... it shored up one side and created a dividing line."

Dan Snow emphasizes that the success of the American colonies was not merely a result of military might but a combination of strategic alliances, effective leadership, and the indomitable spirit of the colonists to achieve self-determination.

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Notable Quotes with Attribution and Timestamps

1. Dan Snow [08:13]: "It's a war about dealing with the messy endings of the previous war... Britain ends up with this massive, unexpected, very expensive, enormous North American empire stretches from Florida up to Hudson Bay."

2. Jonathan Bratton [15:00]: "Washington gets a win, but it's not the win that he wants because no one respects a siege win."

3. Dan Snow [33:41]: "This is when the Americans bring in foreign powers to fight them. They've made allies."

4. Jonathan Bratton [32:07]: "It's a great own goal because it's the British. Whitehall's job to oversee a cohesive war plan."

5. Jonathan Bratton [53:17]: "I don't think there was a time when the colonists knew they had won until it was actually done."

6. Dan Snow [49:17]: "The British commanders are so frustrated... defeating an idea and a popular will."

7. Jonathan Bratton [50:53]: "The Declaration is a piece of propaganda... it shored up one side and created a dividing line."

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Final Thoughts

This episode provides a comprehensive overview of the American War of Independence, highlighting key moments that defined the conflict and analyzing the multifaceted reasons behind the colonial victory. By blending strategic analysis with engaging narratives, Dan Snow offers listeners a nuanced understanding of how the American colonies overcame significant odds to secure their independence.

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For more in-depth explorations of pivotal historical events, tune into Dan Snow's History Hit, released every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. Engage with the community and share your thoughts by reaching out at [e-mail].

Transcript

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[Dan Snow]

Hi folks, Dan Here I have some very very exc for you to celebrate our 10th anniversary with you we are doing a live show of Dan Snow's history hit the first for a very very long time. So please join me on Friday 12th September in London town by popular demand, I'll be retelling the story of the legend Thomas Cochrane, the goat greatest of all time, the man who inspired the movie Master and Commander. And looking back over 10 years of making this podcast, prime ministers, Oscar winners, World War II veterans, Holocaust survivors and some of the greatest historians in the world. It's a time for me to hang out with you guys and answer any burning questions you may have. So don't miss it. It's going to be an epic party and there is no one I'd rather spend it with all of you dedicated listeners. You can get tickets at the link in the show notes but hurry because they are selling fast. See you.

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[Dan Snow]

In the morning of October 17, 1781, a drummer boy beat out the parley a particular rhythm on the drum recognizable to friend and foe alike. It was a signal the British wanted to talk, as was the white handkerchief tied to the end of the sword of a British officer, a man who mounted the parapet on the British defences at their stronghold on the shores of the Chesapeake in Virginia at Yorktown. The officer was blindfolded. He was brought behind American lines to secure terms of surrender for around 8,000 British soldiers and sailors trapped by Franco American forces. Two days later, on 19 October 1781, the forces of the British General Lord Cornwallis marched out of the fort and laid down their arms at the feet of their enemies. This really marks the effective end of the Revolutionary War in North America, a war that had begun six years prior with the Battle of Lexington and Concord. It would take two more years after the surrender at Yorktown for the British and Americans to finally agree a peace treaty. They signed the Treaty of Paris and ended the war for good. The British army had been defeated in North America and the United States of America had their independence. So how on earth did this certainly at times ragtag Continental army defeat one of the greatest military powers on earth? Today on Dan Snow's History, we're exploring the American Revolution. Now, we're obviously going through many of the key 250th anniversaries in some detail as they crop up. I mean, you can listen to episodes about the Boston Tea Party and Lexington Concord, which we've just broadcast, but in this one we thought we'd bring you an overview of the whole thing. We'd break down some of those key moments and turning points and try and figure out exactly how and why a rebel victory became inevitable. We're gonna have a little discussion here. I'm gonna go head to head with U.S. army Historian. He's also an engineering officer. He's a friend of the podcast, Major Jonathan Bratton. I'll be representing the British perspective and tactics in the war and Jonathan will be giving us the American side of the story to stop an all out war breaking out. Once again, the conversation will be mediated by our very own Don Wildman, host of our wonderful sister podcast American History Hit. He'll umpire us. He'll also stop us getting too distracted by tiny irrelevant details. So he'll keep us trundling through the timeline of the war so no one gets left behind, hurt or remains in ignorance. It's a fun one, folks. Enjoy.

[Jonathan Bratton]

T minus 10 atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima.

[Dan Snow]

Guard, save the king. No black white unity till there is first some black unity. Never to go to war with one Another again.

[Jonathan Bratton]

And lift off. And the shuttle has cleared the tower.

[Christian Dropo]

Hello, gentlemen.

[Dan Snow]

How you doing? Good to be on the podcast.

[Jonathan Bratton]

Pleasure to be here. Thank you so much. Wish I could be there in person.

[Christian Dropo]

Take your positions. My job today is to keep you man at a friendly distance here. Before we get into the nitty gritty, let's give a quick overview from 1775 until 1783. After a hundred years of colonialization and almost 20 years of unrest, revolutionaries from 13 of Britain's north American colonies were at war with their British rulers. The war began in skirmishes, with the first shots fired at Lexington and Concord in April 1775. The Revolutionary forces were rudimentary, mostly using guerrilla tactics against the more organized forces of the British military. In the summer of 1776, July 4, the colonies declare independence from the British, giving their forces a much needed boost. Finally, the tables start to turn in favor of the Continental army, the Americans. With the battles of Trenton and Saratoga, the Americans are further galvanized in 1778 when the French enter the fight with them and when Spain and the Dutch declare war against the British. Now, rather than just trying to subdue a rebellion in the colonies, the British find themselves in a global war. Finally, in October 1781, with victory at Yorktown, peace is in sight. For the Americans, the war was brutal. Both sides had moments of brilliance and disaster. But were the colonies always destined to win? Gentlemen, give me an overview of what's at stake for both sides here. What are they fighting for? Jonathan, you first.

[Jonathan Bratton]

So they're fighting for empire. They're fighting for, essentially, the British. And remember, they're all British at this time are fighting for this idea that the British Empire will extend to what is now Pittsburgh, to the forks of the Ohio, it will extend to Canada, it will extend to the rest of the Sugar Islands, and of course, throughout the whole war, it will extend to India. But this, the idea is that you are fighting for empire. You can boil it down from a colonial, provincial perspective that they are fighting for a variety of reasons. Everything from a religious idea that, you know, those evil papists got to go to the idea that they'd like to have a little bit of peace and quiet on their frontier. But at the end of the day, I think, you know, what you've got is you are. You're fighting a war for empire, as historian Fred Anderson called it.

[Christian Dropo]

What are the Americans fighting for, Dan, from a British perspective?

[Dan Snow]

Well, I guess we think they are fighting to avoid paying any tax, avoid paying their fair share. The Seven Years War The French Indian wars cost a vast amount of money. That war was fought, started by the Americans, I should say. Young George Washington strolls into the forks of the Ohio, strolls into the Pennsylvania backcountry, and inadvertently starts a global war. So that war is being fought to protect these British colonies, to ensure that they're freed from French and indigenous enemies, and they don't want to pay their fair share. So it's, I guess, but for me, really, it's a war about dealing with the messy endings of the previous war. Now, we've heard with that in the 20th century, they might think about the Second World War and how it grows out of the first. You might think about the Vietnam, in a way, grows out of the Second World War as well. That's the nature of these things. Britain ends up with this massive, unexpected, very expensive, enormous North American empire stretches from. From really Florida up to Hudson Bay. And they've got to work out what to do, who's going to run it, who's going to pay for it, who's going to control it. And one element, don't you think, Jonathan, is actually this war is also about who gets to enjoy the benefits of that new big empire. People in Virginia, people in Pennsylvania, people in the lower colonies, they're saying, hang on, we think we should be not just extending up to the Forks, the Ohio, we should be going even further. We want the land to the Mississippi and maybe even beyond. And actually the Brits are saying, no, no, no, no, no. This is not going to be just a free for all from our American colonies. We're going to take a more direct, you know, so this is an argument over the shape of this massive and unexpected gift, but it turns out to be a very, very poison gift that's landed in the British Empire's map.

[Christian Dropo]

So I mentioned at the top, resources are obviously very different, outgunned and outmanned. Thank you, Hamilton, for making that phrase very common. One advantage that colonials have is, is home turf. Are they going to be able to use that, Jonathan, is that really such an advantage?

[Jonathan Bratton]

Well, the biggest advantage, it's the Atlantic Ocean. That's America's biggest advantage always. And Dan can sit there and say, well, you know, the Atlantic Ocean is just a great surface to convey the Royal Navy and the ships of the fleet and His Majesty's forces will, Will crush the upright. No, it's a. It's a phenomenal barrier. That means that anything that happens in the colonies, one, the information is going to take three weeks to a month or two. To get back cross the ocean. So the information war that can be fought in the colonies, because from the purposes of these nascent Americans, these rebelling individuals, trying to convey this idea of what on earth are we fighting for and why you should fight with us, is probably more important than what we are going to do to the British. Because first, in order to actually have anything to fight the British with, you actually have to have united colonies. And if there's anyone who's more fractious, prior to 1775, I mean, I guess Parliament, but also it's the 13American colonies. I mean, they just cannot get along at all. And so first. So you have to have that. And then also anything that happens, it means that if the British are going to have to ship massive amounts of supplies across this ocean, so this long supply line, this long line of communication, that's absolutely vital. So when we talk about home turf for the Americans, it's less the land. Now, I will say that the British officer perspective in North America, to quote a British officer who lands in 1755, I believe, and looks at the Ohio country and says, I cannot conceive how war is made in such country. That's probably a lot of the British perspective, but the terrain is going to be difficult for both sides.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah, yeah. And learning from Jonathan for the first time that occasionally these US States don't get on very well, I'm surprised to hear that. Fractious, you say? That's. That's exciting news. One to watch, maybe. I think you're totally right. The Atlantic Ocean's a big disadvantage. The landscape, it just swallows up armies. It breaks armies. It's. There's. There's far more water and marsh and bog and rock and trees than there are in the. The cockpit of war, where the British army's used to fighting in France and Northern France and Belgium. But I also think that get the same problem you do in maybe Vietnam, when this superpower goes a long way away, it is able. When the enemy's standing in front of them, they're able to fight and often destroy them. It's when the enemy's not standing in front of them, it's when they just drift back. There's this. They're fighting communities. There are people that turn up, pick up a musket, and just make life incredibly difficult for the British army across all of the. It's just hard to hold down vast amounts of terrain, no matter how big your army is.

[Christian Dropo]

Well, you're talking about the guerrilla tactics which all. Every American student is raised to honor working with what you have, you know, and they learned it from the native Americans, all these sort of mythology things that we learn.

[Jonathan Bratton]

Definitely mythology, definitely mythology, tons of mythology.

[Christian Dropo]

And yet it's the way things work at the battles of Lexington and Concord. But we, you know, lose these battles right through to the middle of the war. So at first, everyone has at hand is working out pretty well for the British. Things are going to go pretty well for them for a long time in.

[Dan Snow]

This war, I guess. So I guess the big problem, the British army is not as big as it needs to be. The British have bet the farm since the 17th century, or, you know, maybe even before on having a big navy, right. Britain's an island. You. You think, well, we can protect our homeland and we can start to enjoy the opportunities of global trade and maybe even some colonies in the rest of the world by keeping a big navy. So the idea of running a big navy and a big army at the same time. So. So Prussia has an army around 300,000 strong at this point. And Prussia is stretches, I don't know, from what is today Maine down to maybe D.C. the Chesapeake, that's just a small portion of these colonies. And Prussia has an army of 300,000 men. Britain has an army of like 50,000 men at this point. A lot of them are in Ireland, which is itself in a near rebellious state most of the time. So actually, yeah, on paper, Britain's got lots of troops, but it doesn't have anything like the amount of troops you'd need to go town by town and stick a little union flag up the flagpole and leave a bunch of guys there to. And then move on to the next place. You know, that is. That requires massive manpower. So. So yeah, Britain's got an advantage straight away, but British people hope, the Brit planners hope that what they can do is just put the navy up and down the east coast, blockade all these places like Charleston and Rhoda and Providence and New York and Boston. And then the provincials just are reminded of their loyalty to the British crown and decide to. But if that doesn't happen, Britain does have a problem. You gotta put boots on the ground. You gotta put a lot first.

[Christian Dropo]

Turning Point Siege of Boston April 1775 to March 1776 following their victory at Lexington and Concord, the British troops are garrisoned in Boston. The colonial troops besieged them for 11 months. Jonathan, what are the revolutionary forces tactics during that siege?

[Jonathan Bratton]

Well, it's try to use small blows to make a statement wherever you can remember. Washington's working with an army that is under critical shortages. You know, Dan talks about the shortages of manpower for the Crown forces. Washington's facing the same thing. He can't even keep track of where his troops are day to day because half of them go home to tend their crops. Because this idea of serving in a long standing army, a thing we've been taught is very, very bad. It's part of our British tradition. That's another reason why the British army is not ever going to be large is because I guess you guys had some problems with the King using the army for bad things. I don't know, some guy Cromwell came along, some small, small history there, but this is very much a thing that is inherited by the Americans. There's not this idea that yes, we're going to have long serving armies. You mentioned Lexington and Concord earlier as an idea is an example of success. And also Boston. Well, the problem here is that it's a false measure of success. Lexington and Concord is a one in a hundred thousand chances that you get that exact scenario happening precisely where it did. You have Massachusetts being prepared more than any other colony to be able to fight this type of war. And then that ability, people just think, oh, we can duplicate that anywhere. Well no, you can't duplicate a culture of 150 years of independent mindedness and military tradition. And then the other piece is that yes, Washington is dealing with an army that's got about 13 rounds per man and the siege of Boston. So you have to make little, little raids here and there. But ultimately Washington would love a large scale assault to seize Boston, which is simply not practicable. His commanders tell him, hey boss, you do this, you're going to stack up bodies like cordwood. Sure. And it's going to be Henry Knox bringing over the artillery over the Berkshire mountains, through those horrible swamps, awful terrain in the dead of winter to place artillery over on Dorchester Heights overlooking Boston. And so Washington gets a win, but it's not the win that he wants because no one respects a siege win. People respect the bloody battle, the pitched battle, the outmaneuvering your enemy, forcing them to flee ingloriously before you. And that's not what he gets. And so he has to now think about what are, how do I fight this war at the next battle, New.

[Christian Dropo]

York, what happens, I've always wondered what happens when they leave? Do the British go back and say, okay, so that didn't work out very well, we need to reconnoiter here and that's going to lead to a lot of ships in New York Harbor.

[Dan Snow]

That's right. And, you know, Jonathan's being very modest here. I don't want to do his job for him. But, I mean, Washington, I think, does brilliantly here. And they chase the British, they humiliate the British right at the beginning of the war. This is just shocking. Britain's poured reinforcements into this town to bring Massachusetts back to a state of subjugation to the Crown law. And here they are, the people of Massachusetts and other New Englanders, and led by a man from Virginia, George Washington, they have strangled Boston. They forced the Brits to leave. Because of the shadow of the big cannon overhanging the city. Loyalists have left with them. The conditions were tough. Like, the British army's kind of starving. It's desperately rounding up cows. Everyone's laughing at it. This is just. This is brutal. And so, yeah, they head off to Halifax and then they think, you know, we need to go somewhere. We think there's plenty of loyalists in New York. We like the harbor in New York.

[Jonathan Bratton]

We.

[Dan Snow]

It's a much better. It's a much more sustainable place. There's. There's. It's easy to get food and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, they end up sending a big old fleet to New York harbor. And this is where I think, if we want to play this game, I think the Brits come nearest, achieving a pretty good result this campaign. They could have. Well, I'm sure we'll get onto it, but I think this is the bit where I think the Brits are let down by their. By their leaders in this bit, but I'm sure we'll talk about that.

[Christian Dropo]

So these are warning signs. Do you think the British were spooked at all at this point, Dan?

[Dan Snow]

I think the British definitely spooked. And in fact, British commanders are writing home going, we got a serious problem out here. The locals do not want us here. And it's not just a band of troublemakers. It is very widespread feeling. We've lost control of the hinterland. We lost control. So, you know, we can control a port or two. We can't, actually, we can't. We've lost control of the countryside and you need a huge manpower to get this back. And the politicians are like, pull yourselves together. It's a bunch of farmers.

[Christian Dropo]

Yeah. They have demonstrated that the colonials have a certain will and determination to do what they want to do here. We have strengthened the authority of that institution, that Congress that is so controversial. Suddenly congeals gets some authority behind it and George Washington has emerged. They have A central leader. This is not good for the British.

[Dan Snow]

No, this is not good. The Americans are on their way to building a state, on their way to building an army and a Marine Corps and a navy. I mean, this is bad news. This is not just a provincial rebellion.

[Christian Dropo]

But this is also a paper lion in many ways, right, Jonathan? I mean, Bunker Hill was not a win. Lexington Concord was one in the retreat, you know, that's where they did the damage.

[Jonathan Bratton]

Oh, Lexington Concord is a great win. What are you talking about? This is utterly poor. Pulverizing an entire punitive expedition, driving it back, fleeing at the end to its ranks in Lexington, Bunker Hill, you know, it's a British victory that's a clear win, right? You know, taken some ground at the cost of 10% of the officers in the British army. But, you know, it's pretty catastrophic fighting. That shows, I think it shows that the war is going to be long and it's going to be bloody and you're not going to get a quick victory by parading troops through towns in order to show the might of the British Empire. I think we're also forgetting we're being very Boston or New England or East coast centric. Remember, America has also just done a thing in Quebec. The American army in the fall of 1775 launches a two pronged invasion of Canada that seizes Montreal. And but for, you know, a very untimely whiff of grapeshot that blows Richard Montgomery into little bits outside the walls of Quebec City might have even taken Quebec City as well. And then you would be left with the situation of what on earth do you do with this 14th colony and how do you defend Canada? I think honestly it's probably good that the colonials are forced out of Canada in the spring of 1776, because otherwise you're just pouring more and more troops into this sort of black hole, a little bit akin to what the British will do in the South Post 1778. So there's a lot going on in the theater and it's showing that, hey, yeah, this is a ragtag but they all just mounted an invasion that had a general, Guy Carlton, fleeing for his life up to Quebec City from Montreal. And now the British are not only have to contend with, hey, how do we put down this, this rebellious colonies in New England, but how do we get one of our own colonies, our loyal colonies back?

[Christian Dropo]

Yeah, but then they'd build a little fleet and chase Benedict Arnold down Lake Champlain, sinking his boat.

[Jonathan Bratton]

Benedict Arnold stings right back with his little fleet that he built out of nothing but some hopes and dreams in Massachuset with sailors.

[Christian Dropo]

All right, we're going to launch over vast territory here to July 1776, the Declaration of Independence. A hugely pivotal moment. In the school textbooks and in the media, we have this kind of image of all the Founding Fathers standing together, lit by candlelight, gathered around a piece of parchment. As you know, the whole image wasn't really this way at all, was it, Jonathan?

[Jonathan Bratton]

No, I mean, it was very public, for one thing. If you're going to have a rebellion, you got to do some specific things in public and very openly takes place. And as with every, every good, you know, Constitutional Convention, Philadelphia, stupidly hot. Declaration planning, Philadelphia, stupidly hot. They just can imagine that all these rooms stank to high heaven of all these perspiring would be politicians. But the, I think the critical piece of the decoration is how rapidly it is disseminated after they wrangle over what it's going to be. And it is. There's a lot of wrangling. There's, there's. Jefferson originally has a piece in there. You know, if you look at the grievances of, of, of the colonies to the Crown, which is what the Declaration really is, hey, here's the why of what we're doing. They're saying, hey, you're doing this, you're doing this, you're doing this. We don't like it. We feel like our rights are being trampled. And then there's contentions, as I said, you know, the colonies are going to fight each other. So there's a bit in there about, hey, the British are forcing the slave trade upon us. And South Carolina is like, wait a minute, hang on. No, take that one out and that one will, will revisit that in 1861. But the. So after all that is ironed out and then it is pushed out rapidly to the Continental army, to the army itself, to. There are readings of the Declaration of Independence in New York City, where Washington has it read to the Continental army there at Fort Ticonderoga on Mount Independence. At all these critical places where the troops are, it is explained to native allies. It is this mass effort to cause an information win that is something that I don't think the British foresaw was how this was going to be used to turn the narrative against, against specifically the Crown. George iii.

[Christian Dropo]

This is treason. This is an act of treason, Don.

[Dan Snow]

You're darn right it's treason. And we're still upset about it. Poor George III comes out. I mean, the list of grievances against George III in the Declaration of Independence is deranged. But anyway, we don't have to dwell on that. But I think, you know, and Jonathan mentions what's going on in New York at the same time, there's this campaign in New York that I'm super interested. This almost my key moment of the American Revolutionary War. And the British commanders in New York are a little bit hesitant, a little bit cautious. George Washington gets a little bit lucky maybe once or twice to the weather, and you get the so called, you know, the miracle of when they managed to evacuate troops from Long island, they managed to evacuate troops from Manhattan. And each time the Brits just keep failing to kind of put Washington in the bag. Just get that army, capture it, destroy it. Now, I'm not sure it would have made a huge difference, but it could have. If you lose the main field army of the rebellion, of the revolution, of this young, now young republic, then maybe that would have made a difference. So there's a moment here, I think, where the Brits could have pulled it off. But like I say, these, these British commanders, they're a little bit flat footed.

[Christian Dropo]

Yeah, right. So, Jonathan, the final statement on the Declaration, it basically is a piece of. Propaganda is a negative word, but I mean, it is that kind of thing and people don't really take that into consideration, how important it was to get the message out, not only externally to foreign powers, but also internally.

[Jonathan Bratton]

Well, and it's also, it gives a purpose for the war because, remember, I say this a lot, but the, the action, the events of April, May 1775, and even in June, you know, all the way up through the olive branch petition where the, where Congress says, hey, King George, you know, we could, I don't know, maybe come to an agreement, patch these things up. All of this is not. There is no widespread movement saying, oh yes, we are going to be a united and independent American entity. And that is what the Declaration is doing. It is taking this thing that was probably so far outside people's minds in April of 1775 and making it a reality rapidly. That is one really just one year and a few months from, from the beginning of hostilities to a full movement for independence. And yes, it shores up one side. It also creates a very firm dividing line down the middle. Either you are for independence or you are not. And if you're not for independence, you are with the enemy. We talk a lot about the sort of numbers involved on, on who was loyalist, who is patriot, et cetera, et cetera. I also don't like those terms because I'm pretty sure all the loyalists thought of them themselves as very good, patriotic Britons. But really, you've got about 30% of the population going for independence, 30% loyalists, and 30 to 40% wholly in the middle, just trying to survive. Which is why you have these British commanders who are so frustrated when they go into a town and everyone pulls out a Union Jack and says, yay, George iii. And then they go, all right, cool, we've got this space. And then they march on. And then those people will immediately sell supplies to the rebels or. Or send drafts off to the Continental army or support the militia. And you've got everyone from Cornwallis to Burgoyne to Sir Henry Clinton to Howe, who packs it up in 1777, 1778. He's just like, I'm sick of this, I'm going home. All these British commanders who can't actually grasp the problem on the ground, which is that it is very difficult to defeat an idea and a popular will. It's very easy to defeat an army, which Howe does. Burgoyne and Clinton and Cornwallis all defeat. Tactically defeat rebel forces, sure, but it doesn't matter.

[Dan Snow]

Listen to Dan Snow's History. This is the American Revolution. Or Coming up, it's that time of year again. Back to school season. And Instacart knows that the only thing harder than getting back into the swing of things is getting all the back.

[Christian Dropo]

To school supplies, snacks and essentials you need.

[Dan Snow]

So here's your reminder to make your life a little easier this season. Shop favorites from Staples, Best Buy, and Costco, all delivered through Instacart so that you can get some time back and do whatever it is that you need to get your life back on track. Instacart we're here. Land a Viking longship on island shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt, and avoid the poisoner's cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal, brutal Japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week.

[Douglas Adams]

Douglas Adams, the genius behind the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit, Douglas the Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of the futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians. Get Douglas Adams, the Ends of the Earth now at Pushkin fm. Audiobooks, or wherever audiobooks are sold.

[Jonathan Bratton]

Well.

[Christian Dropo]

Within the year following the Declaration of Independence does not go well for the Continental army, with the exception of perhaps the Battle of Princeton. There's a lot of nooks and crannies there. But we head towards the middle of 1777 and the battle of Saratoga, which I think is fair to say is the next huge pivotal point when things could have gone a lot differently than they did. Dan, we have talked many times about Saratoga. It is a complex event. But what are the headlines of this?

[Dan Snow]

The headlines are that the plan was very, very complex. As you say now, it was hugely ambitious, probably overly ambitious. But then again, there are examples in North Americ, whether it's in 1760 in the French Indian War, or whether it's as Jonathan talks about in the American assault on Montreal in 1775, there are examples of big bodies of men moving across this very difficult landscape and all getting to the right place at the right time. This is not one of those examples. So the Brits, they have this smart idea, which is they're going to maybe try and just to divide, just create a firewall. These troublesome. The New England is the real problem here. And the middle colonies, the southern colonies, they may be a little more Tory, they may be a little more relaxed about the idea of the British Empire, perhaps some truth in that idea. And they thought, what we need to do is just build a wall between these two groups. So we've got, well, let's get a force moving down from Canada, advancing south towards Albany, down that great invasion corridor that's seen so many armies marching to and fro over the decades. We'll get an army marching from Lake Ontario east towards Albany. So that's another prong coming in from Lake Ontario, coming towards Albany. And then we get a force moving up from New York, where we've captured New York and parts of New Jersey. So they come due north up the Hudson Valley. And so from three different directions, we kind of arrive at Albany and we cut off New England from the rest of the colonies. The problem is none of those forces do what they're supposed to, and none of them arrive at the right time, and none of the commanders do what they're Supposed to.

[Christian Dropo]

Because of bad leadership.

[Dan Snow]

A little bit of bad leadership, A little bit of just logistics. In the 8th century, tough boots fall apart, everyone gets sick, lot of food, and then bit of resistance by the Americans. I'm not doing them down here. So what is supposed to be a three way attack ends up with one force coming down from Canada and finding itself completely outnumbered at the end of a hideous supply route, dealing with far too many defenders outside Albany at a place called Saratoga. And the Brits know they're in big trouble.

[Christian Dropo]

Yeah, this is the first big surrender, right? Of any kind of.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah, it is. Thanks, Don. It is.

[Jonathan Bratton]

It's a great own goal.

[Dan Snow]

It's a great own goal.

[Jonathan Bratton]

It's a great own goal because it's the British. You know, it's Whitehall's job to oversee a cohesive war plan. And the problem is they approve every plan that they're given, including the one where how in New York says, oh, actually, I'm not marching north, I'm marching south to Philadelphia. Burgoyne knows this, everyone knows this. And Burgoyne goes, yep, okay, I'll meet you in Albany. A and B are not leading to C. They're. They're doing A to F to Z. And it's. I honestly have massive sympathy for these poor British troops because they're doomed from the start by one of the most colossally poor oversights of planning on the British perspective. Don't approve all the plans. Don't leave it up to commanders to choose their own adventure, if you will. When it comes to strategy making, gives.

[Christian Dropo]

A great showcase for the crazy Benedict Arnold to run around on his horse getting shot.

[Dan Snow]

He is, he's impressive at this point, but I think. And once we got this battle at Saratoga, again, you see this problem for the Brits, that yes, they do tend to perform better in battles in the American Revolutionary War. But when the Americans are well led, when they are supplied, and particularly when they have the advantages of ground or defensive, they can fire musket volleys that are as vicious as anything the Brits will come up against in Europe. And so you can't assume as the British army that you are just going to grind forward and disperse this group of amateurs. And actually, I think at Saratoga, the Brits find themselves repelled by very impressive American infantry tactics. And so that is, that is to their credit as well.

[Christian Dropo]

Jonathan, the upshot of this really is the French getting interested in joining this war. It's not just. It's not a done deal, but this could be an advantage for them backing.

[Jonathan Bratton]

This army, right, yeah, it's Saratoga. But then it's also the survival of Washington's army following Brandywine. You know, he goes from a defeat at Brandywine on the defensive to a tactical defeat in Germantown where he's on the offensive. This is an army mounting an offensive after a defeat. That is rapid resilience and not just in surviving these battles and then forcing what Germantown does. It forces Howe to keep his army inside Philadelphia. He can no longer move around the countryside. It's a thing that I think we don't see a lot when we look at just strict wins and losses. The French see a captured army in New York, then they see a penned up army in Pennsylvania and they're going, okay, you guys are demonstrating enough that you have. You have the French crown, who very much have a policy of, we don't really want to get heavily involved, but we would really love to bleed our traditional enemy as dry as possible.

[Christian Dropo]

Was this just vengeance for the French and Indian War?

[Jonathan Bratton]

Just French and Indian War. Dan, do you want to talk about how long ago.

[Dan Snow]

Listen, Don, I don't know if you know about this striving we got going on on this island of ours, but we got these neighbors called the French, and it goes back a fair way, actually, so. Yeah, but there's been. And all that.

[Jonathan Bratton]

Yeah, well, exactly.

[Dan Snow]

So there's been like, particularly since 1688, 1689, the Brits and the French have fought some. I've followed some historians who call it the Second Hundred Years War. You get the Nine Years War, you get the War of Spanish Succession. Yeah, you get the War of Austrian Succession, you get the French India War, the Seven Years War, you get the American Revolutionary War, then you get the French Revolutionary War, then you get the Gosh. And it ends. It's really a battle in some ways for kind of global hegemony.

[Christian Dropo]

Can we just get to World War I again?

[Dan Snow]

Exactly. Well, then we're buddies again and it ends. I need not tell you, the British Cavalry watering their horses in the Seine and the Duke of Wellington bedding Napoleon's mistress. But anyway, so. But it is. This is just part of this century long struggle. And it goes on in India and it goes on in the Caribbean. It goes on. So. So the French are looking to take on the Brits wherever the British show weakness. They'll fight the Brits in Ireland, they'll fight the Brits in India, they'll fight the Brits in. In West Africa. But at this time, it looks like the Brits are in a whole World of trouble on the east coast of America. And the French are happy to send.

[Christian Dropo]

Muskets and they're going to bankrupt themselves doing it.

[Dan Snow]

That is a problem for later. They will bankrupt themselves.

[Christian Dropo]

But you mentioned the Spanish, Jonathan. They get involved. Most Americans don't even know about that.

[Jonathan Bratton]

They get involved. I mean, it's not to the same extent as the French. The Spanish have lost very heavily. They are going to eventually enter the war after France on the condition of the famous Spanish. Condition always is we want Gibraltar back. You know, they're not going to get it. Spain's contribution to the war is rocky. They demonstrate that they are still a great, a part of the great power competition. They are still part of this great game, as it will later be called, but they don't demonstrate that they have this political will to openly support the Americans other than beyond sending some, some arms, a little bit of money and then a small expedition through, through Florida and modern day Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana. And so what you, what you really have with Spain is it's another fleet, the addition of Spain's fleet into the war. And then also the Dutch. And the Dutch come in heavily with money. The Dutch are floating massive loans to the Americans which they'll be nice enough to, to, to sort of overlook the fact that we absolutely screw them on the back end and don't pay anybody back. But this is, again, these are items for the future. But for, from the British perspective, you now have, I think, probably what no one in Britain wanted in 1775, which is all of a sudden you have a world war again. You just had a world war. You, you're trying to figure out how to pay for the last one because, you know, William Pitt wrote a blank check to the colonies to do whatever they wanted. And they, they took him at his word and they did. And now here we are with massive British debt and another war.

[Dan Snow]

And the worst thing about a world war is you're fighting without allies. And Winston Churchill said, the only thing worse than fighting with allies is fighting without allies. And so this is for all that, my fellow Brits. And we like to talk about the British Empire, we like to talk about great British military successes. Nearly all of them have been achieved. The big important ones have been achieved as part of coalitions. Big, big coalitions. That's been Britain's secret source. And now the most unsuccessful war in British history is the American Revolutionary War, when it's fighting absolutely on its own.

[Christian Dropo]

Right, so we're moving on from the Declaration of Independence as a pivotal moment which really demonstrated the resilience of the colonists willing to fight through failure. I'm hearing from you, Saratoga is probably the biggest pivotal moment. We'll have to make this decision at the end, but definitely a huge moment of pivot when not only have the Americans won the battle, but also they've brought in foreign powers to fight them. They've made allies. So let's again move forward towards the end here, towards Yorktown with French support and money. It feels very much that by 1781, victory for the Americans is in the cards. Our final turning point comes with the last showdown. Yorktown is under siege From September to October 1781. Washington's regiments joined by 4,500 French soldiers under the Marquis de Lafayette. Up to 17,000 on land. Yorktown is under siege From September to October 1781, Washington's regiments are joined by 4,500 French soldiers Under the Marquis de Lafayette. That makes a total of 17,000 on land. Faced off against 8,000 Brits. French Admiral Francois Joseph de Grasse and his fleet are in the Chesapeake, preventing the escape of Cornwallis and the British army and reinforcement by the British Navy. On September 5, the French take a victory over a British fleet in the battle of Chesapeake. And it's clear Cornwallis troops have no chance of escape or reinforcement. Troops suffer from disease, dwindling supplies, and casualties. On October 17, the drummer and officer signal surrender negotiations take place on the 18th, and the official surrender ceremony occurs on the 19th. Cornwallis does not attend, citing illness. So British Brigadier General Charles o' Hara surrenders to Washington's second in command, Major General Benjamin Lincoln, by handing him his sword. This is such a pivotal battle in the revolution. Dan, what state are things in for the British at the time of Yorktown?

[Dan Snow]

Well, it's just this. It's this old problem, which is the British army can move around America sometimes carried by ships this overwhelming maritime strength. Other times they'll march. They'll march up through the Carolinas into Virginia. But the problem is that every time they go somewhere and they liberate somewhere or they get the union flags out, as Jonathan says, and the crowds all come out and say, okay, fine, King George, we're back. The minute they leave town, like the Viet Cong in Vietnam or like the Taliban, I guess, in Afghanistan, the patriots, the rebels just drift back in and reassert their control. So you end up with marching this big distance of British armies march all the way into this part of Virginia, and they haven't got anything to show for it. What they then try and do is they do whatever British. They do exactly what British armies have always done. They just look towards the coast and be like, where the hell's the navy? We need the navy here. So. And they do that. They get Yorktowns on the coast and they build a.

[Christian Dropo]

And they're not going to get the navy because of the French.

[Dan Snow]

Well, this is the killer fact, Don. This is an absolute disaster. So they've built this, the fort, and they settled down. Normal service resumed. Here we are on the coast. We get the navy bringing supplies in, food, more powder and shot and reinforcements. Then the unimaginable happens. I mean, this is very difficult for me to talk about, really, but the French navy turn up in an astonishing and lucky and skillful and remarkable bit of coordination that crosses two continents. And several months, the French navy turn up in force. There's an inconclusive battle off in the Chesapeake Bay. The British retreat afterwards to go and repair their ships. So it's actually defeat for the British. And for the, you know, this astonishing new experience for the Brits, they find themselves sandwiched between an army force, the Americans and the French, who are besieging them in Yorktown, and a French fleet out at sea. And the Brits do not like this situation. Listen to the American Revolution on Dan Snow's History. More coming up after this. Land a Viking longship on island shores. Scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt and avoid the poisonous cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. They're a new episode every week.

[Douglas Adams]

Douglas Adams, the genius behind the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit. Douglas Adams, the Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the digital age and our failing politics. With astounding clarity, hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians. Get Douglas the Ends of the Earth now at Pushkin FM Audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold.

[Christian Dropo]

Jonathan, tell me about the American side of things. At this point, Washington is what is his aims, his strategic goals?

[Jonathan Bratton]

So he's trying to coordinate with this, you know, he's trying to take advantage of this new alliance, the 1778 Treaty of Alliance in Amity with France, to be able to make a joint. A joint combined attack. What he would really love to do in his heart of hearts, is seize New York, get that festering insult away from him, get this thing that he's been carrying around with him, the loss of New York. I think really, he really, really feels. And there's been attempts to coordinate continental forces with the French army and Navy. You've got an attempt in Savannah that ends terribly. You've got an attempt in. In Rhode island that doesn't end well. You have a lot of failure. And I think that's important to emphasize is you have a lot of failure, a lot of disappointment and a lot of mistrust building on both sides. From the American side, I don't know if we can trust these guys to show up when we need them. And from the French side is. I don't know if we can trust these guys to fight when we show up. There's. So there's. There's a lot of tension that is going into this relationship, which makes 1781 that much more impressive. What the Americans are dealing with fundamentally is honestly a gift, which is that in 1778, the British turn to the South. They. They say, we're writing off the main colonies. We're writing off doing good. We'll do some stuff there. We'll keep our main forces in New York, but we are going to attempt a Southern strategy. We are going to win the American South. We'll. We will have a limited victory. We will keep the south the more lucrative colonies. And you know, those dumb rebels, they. In the north, they're intractable and they're poor and cheap anyway, those dumb Yankees, we can live without them. And this is a gift because this is where British manpower is pouring into. And they're able to combat this with a relatively. The Continentals and the militia, the state troops, are able to combat this with a relatively low number of troops. So by 1781, this. This weird assortment of Continentals and militia in the Carolinas have essentially caused Cornwallis to give up in frustration to throw his hands up and say, I've beaten you everywhere. In every battle I pursue you. I keep having to cross rivers and I'm running out of boats and my men are destroyed. My horses are starving. I have to go refit. In Yorktown, where he. Even before that, he attempts to destroy a force of about 4,000 under Lafayette, which eventually ends up Pinning him on the Virginia peninsula. And so it's this incredible combination of British strategic mishap, I would say, or unable to read the situation properly, and this unparalleled moment in space and time where you get Washington, Rochambeau and de Gras able to actually come, and the Comte d' Estaing able to come to the table and say, yes, we are going to attempt this. To move across an entire multiple theaters of war to converge in one space and time. Most of the troops for that, I think a lot of people don't understand. Most of the Continental and French troops, almost all of them. For the siege of Yorktown began in New Hampshire, Rhode island, and New York.

[Christian Dropo]

Yeah, right.

[Jonathan Bratton]

There's only a couple thousand under Lafayette that have been sort of scrapping it out in Virginia. And so this is just this incredible feat to concentrate rapidly at that right moment, as Dan said, at this moment, where the British are going, oh, wait, we don't have naval superiority. What is that? I mean, that's like telling the American army today that, hey, you have to fight without air superiority.

[Christian Dropo]

Right.

[Jonathan Bratton]

That. That causes everything in my body to clinch up, and this would want to hide in a little hole.

[Christian Dropo]

Dan, could they have come back after Yorktown, do you think? The British? Yeah.

[Dan Snow]

No, no, no. Yorktown was a catastrophe. Another army, a second entire army surrenders just utterly something like 8,000 men. It would involve raising another army to send. And I think people had. They'd worked out that these armies. It wasn't like, oh, we were doing so well before the army got captured. It's just stalemate at best. You're fighting a global war that the Spanish are. You know, there's other interests around the world you want to defend, and the British have no option. You know, the British. British credit is under attack. The British government is. You know, Britain is still. You know, it's not a dictatorship. The British government is very shaky at this point, that Parliament are doubting the strategy. So Lord north, who's the prime minister, his grip on power will soon come to an end. We're gonna have three prime ministers in one year after this, if you can believe that, which we only have in the gravest of crises, like a couple of years ago. And so Yorktown is a symptom of just a gigantic failure to come to terms with how to pay for, how to bring the Americans back to their obedience. And in a way, Yorktown puts the Brits out of their misery because it's so decisive that they just go, look, we can't do this.

[Christian Dropo]

It's really a statement on how overextended they were.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah, we haven't got the men. We haven't, we can't send another army. So we can keep this going and sit in New York and sort of just exchange potshots with the Americans, or we can just cut this Gordon knot, we can cut off this diseased limb and we can get back doing what we want to do, which is defend our valuable sugar producing islands in the Caribbean from the French, defend our possessions in India, defend our Gibraltar, all those kind of things. And yep, it's super sad. We, you know, the Brits, they've secured Canada. So you know, maybe they just, maybe they lose the 13 colonies. You got the lumber, they got the lumber in Canada. You know what's the best that's going to happen? Those little 13 colonies.

[Christian Dropo]

And maple syrup.

[Dan Snow]

Well, you tell me. Exactly. And beaver skin hats.

[Jonathan Bratton]

Oh yeah.

[Dan Snow]

You know, I'm sure those little 13 colonies, they'll never come to an end. They'll find they'll squabble amongst themselves. They'll be back. They'll be back.

[Christian Dropo]

Surprisingly, sporadic fighting does continue after this. There's a couple years here until this Treaty of Paris is signed. Jonathan. It seems interesting to me. As Americans we celebrate the 4th of July, the declaration of Independence, but we don't really celebrate the Treaty of Paris. It's weird, isn't it? 3rd of September.

[Jonathan Bratton]

I mean it's weird only from the perspective of actually asking Americans to look with a realistic light upon their own history. What's more popular? Oh well, we manifested our own destiny into existence. To borrow a phrase, that will come later on in American politics. But this idea that, oh well, we, we did it on our own, we willed it to happen. It's like Lexington and Concord. It was the embattled farmer who stood up and made this happen. No, it was fought as all American wars are always fought and won, which is with allies, which is very difficult for us to admit. It is fought by a mixture of professional forces and part time forces. Today we'd have the regular army, army reserve, the Army National Guard, and it's fought by drafting individuals. So by, by the end, the Continental army is drafting people. It is forced service.

[Christian Dropo]

Right?

[Jonathan Bratton]

Because that is how you keep armies in the field and how you win wars. All of this doesn't make for really good hand clapping, you know, yay, America feelings. And so yes, we celebrate the July 4th because otherwise we would have to say, yeah, we owe our independence probably mostly to France.

[Christian Dropo]

We are very good storytellers. Very good at building our own mythology to this day, as a matter of fact, Dan, on this side of things, what's the. There's a whole empire to build. I mean, you got plenty of work going on over here.

[Dan Snow]

Well, speaking of stories, this is the strange thing about the American Revolutionary War. It's the most disastrous war in British history. And what happens over the next 40 years is one of the most gigantic expansions of British power in the history of the world. It's very weird. So there's an industrial revolution happening in Britain which will give it huge advantages going into the 19th century. So its economy is absolutely. It's on fire. It's going through one of the most important events in human history, this industrial revolution that starts in little old England. And so although the loss of America is a catastrophe, and although there's a world in which Britain and North America go on being one great big imperial state and maybe fused together as a nation state at some state in the future, that's a very interesting world, but it's not the one we live in. But what does happen is chaos in Britain. Political chaos, Huge existential crisis. What are we doing here? We've got no money. It's a disaster. But under the surface, there's enormous dynamism and excitement going on with Britain's economy. Amazing things are happening. And then France totally implodes.

[Christian Dropo]

Exactly.

[Dan Snow]

The French Revolution happens, as you pointed out, often to a large extent, because of the vast amount of money they spend in the American Revolutionary War and then the money they spend after that still trying to catch up with the British fleet. And so Britain is drawn into this enormous war in Europe, these enormous wars in Europe, perhaps a little bit like World War II in the US and sort of lifting the Americans out of the remains of the Depression. Those actually, although they're very tough wars and some very tough years in those wars, they prove to have a kind of galvanizing effect on Britain. Britain ends up conquering other colonies around the world, like southern Africa, and extends its possessions in. In India. So Britain, it's strange, it's a disaster, but it doesn't seem to halt the trajectory of Britain into what will become a great global empire.

[Christian Dropo]

There it goes. Works out pretty well for them. So we've done a whirlwind tour of the biggest pivotal moments of this war. There were many, many in between. But, Jonathan, I think it's fair to say. Well, I'll leave this to you. What do you, as an American think was the pivotal moment? When the colonials imagined that they'd won this war. When did it happen? When did things turn as to when.

[Jonathan Bratton]

They imagine they won the war? I don't know if they actually do imagine it until 1783. Washington himself is in disbelief that there will be any end to the hostile. I mean, he is up. He is ready for the assault on New York. Up until the point where the British troops leave in 1783, there's this intense idea that the war cannot surely be over, that they could not have actually done this. This from a, you know, stepping back, a geopolitical perspective, highly unpopular. When we want to look at the patriotic idea of, of the revolution. I mean, I do think that when Britain loses the war is 1778, when it. When it admits that it cannot control the northern, most populous, most rebellious colonies, and that that is where they. They lose their way, so to speak. I mean, they give up. They essentially say, we are willing to achieve a very limited victory or a limited loss. Not unlike Vietnam, where Dan was talking about how the British Empire massively expands following this huge loss. Following Vietnam, the United States sees itself as the victor of the Cold War, sees itself coming out as the lone superpower. And then, of course, there's the big question that I think Britain also had in the 18, mid-1800s, is what do you do when you're the lone superpower, and how do you use that power? Those are for future podcasts. But I. I don't think that there's a simple answer. I would like to say it was Saratoga. That would be the easy answer. But I honestly don't think for the colonists themselves, I don't think that there was a time when they knew that they had won until it was actually.

[Dan Snow]

Done, and then they didn't know how big they'd won. Because the Brits make a really extraordinary decision, which is that they don't just give these 13. Thirteen colonies this independence, or they don't agree, accept the 13 colonies independence. They give them a whole ton of territory that the Americans didn't even know they were asking for, right? And that is maybe a different podcast, but they give them the whole of the Midwest, right? The whole. The Mississippi, Ohio valleys. So these 13 columns we talk about, suddenly it is the eastern chunk of what is now the U.S. so overnight, the peace treaty is as big a victory for the Americans as any of.

[Jonathan Bratton]

These ones, although it's almost a Trojan horse, too, because in it lies the seeds of the near destruction of this new republic that is going to get, you know, sort it out with a constitution. But prior to that. You've got to imagine the Brits sitting back there going, yeah, you thought it was really easy to govern. Yeah, you try dealing with you assholes.

[Dan Snow]

Well, there you have it folks. Little introduction to the American Revolutionary War. We will be looking at this history much, much more over the coming months and years as those 250th anniversaries crop up. If you'd like us to cover something in particular with Jonathan or Don or by myself, just send us an email. You can find the address in the show notes. And of course, if you want more American history, you have to head over to American History Hit, hosted by Don Wildman. It's available wherever you get your podcasts. They cover everything from the Mayflower to the Vietnam War, from the comanche to the 20th century. Go check it out folks. Bye bye for now.

[Douglas Adams]

Douglas Adams, the genius behind the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, was a master satirist who cloaked a sharp political edge beneath his absurdist wit. Douglas Adams, the Ends of the Earth explores the ideas of the man who foresaw the dangers of the the digital age and our failing politics with astounding clarity. Hear the recordings that inspired a generation of futurists, entrepreneurs and politicians. Get Douglas Adams the Ends of the Earth now at Pushkin FM Audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold.

[Dan Snow]

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[Christian Dropo]

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[Christian Dropo]

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