← Dan Snow's History Hit
Dan Snow's History Hit
Investigating the Nazi Massacre at Rumbula
00:31:17
What is it really like to discover that your grandfather was a member of the SS?
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- [00:00]
A
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A
Hi everyone and welcome to Dan Snow's history Hit in 1971, a letter arrived at the home of Ernst Hammacker in Germany. It marked a turning point. After years of questioning by the authorities, he was formally summoned to court. He was being charged, and it couldn't have been more grave complicity, in the murder of 25,000 Jews in the Rumbele Forest just outside Riga in Latvia, where he had served as part of an SS death squad. Hemecke was terminally ill with cancer and he died before the case could come to trial. Proceedings were abandoned, but for his family, the shadow of those allegations endured, bringing with it decades of shame and grief and unanswered questions that would echo across generations. Today, I'm very happy to be joined by Lawrence Hammecker, Ernst's grandson. Lawrence is an author, a senior journalist at the Frankfurter Allgemeinseitung, and he's undertaken a deeply personal investigation into his grandfather's past. I think his brave work seeks to uncover not only the historical truth, but also the human reality behind it. Lawrence first spoke to us in September 2023 about his story. If you haven't heard that conversation, I'd recommend you going back to listen. Just search for the Nazi massacre at Rumbala wherever you get your podcasts. But in this episode, he returns to share his new findings and reflect on the difficult path his research has taken him down as he continues to piece together the life and actions of his grandfather. A warning before we begin this discussion Includes very disturbing material. It confronts the brutal realities of mass violence. It's going to raise also difficult questions about how ordinary individuals can become involved in acts of extraordinary evil. And it's also about how families and societies reckoned with such histories. For Lorenz, this has been a painful but necessary journey. I'm so grateful that he chose to make that journey and is so honest about it when he comes on this podcast. This is his story. Lawrence, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast.
- [03:29]
B
Thanks, Dan. Great to be back.
- [03:32]
A
I think the whole audience are enormously grateful for your courage and tenacity and resilience in even talking about this. Lots and lots of people responded to the first episode we did together. But for those of people who didn't hear it, let's go through some of the top line work that you've done. This was your grandpa. Remind us, did you know him? Did he bounce you on his knee as a young man?
- [03:53]
B
I never met Ernst Hemicker, my grandfather, because he died five years before I was born. The only thing we had in common was that we were born on the same day on the 27th of July.
- [04:04]
A
Yeah, I remember that. And how did your parents talk about him?
- [04:09]
B
My father talked with me about Ernst the first time when I was five years old and. And we were talking about the Second World War. We did it very soon. I was interested in military issues already as a child and on a car drive from Cologne to our hometown in the Sauerland, he told me that Ernst was involved in atrocities close to Riga in Rumbola, where he was a grave digger for more than 25,000 Jews. The this was the one side and the other side was that he told me narratives that are typical for Nazis who had big debt. He said he didn't want to. He was a technician and he tried to help Jews at the end of the war.
- [04:53]
A
So your dad's an interesting sort of transitional generation. They knew they had to acknowledge what had happened, but they also couldn't. Obviously it's his father who he loved. They were adept at sort of finding excuses and finding extenuating circumstances that helped to explain his father's behavior.
- [05:12]
B
Yeah, that's exactly the case. He wasn't able to deal with the issue. He tried to defend his father, to understand him on the one side. On the other side, it was absolutely obvious that he was involved in the atrocities in Rambouilla.
- [05:30]
A
Why do you think you have been able to sort of approach this as a journalist, a historian, and come to terms with the reality of what this man did. Is it just distance and time?
- [05:41]
B
Well, I think distance and time is the one thing, though. On the other side, I am and you are the same generation. We are still close enough to be personally involved to a certain extent. But the other thing was definitely the sudden death of my father in 2011. He died two weeks before. We wanted to fly to Riga on our own to start our search for traces.
- [06:02]
A
So towards the end of his life, your father was becoming more confident and comfortable trying to get towards some truth. He didn't want to shut down these conversations.
- [06:11]
B
He tried to, but I think what he felt was that I wanted to find the truth. I wanted to confront myself and wanted to confront him with a thing. And I also wanted to give him a kind of relief. I know that's impossible, but I tried to help him, and he appreciated that.
- [06:30]
A
My grandfather died before I was born. And if I'm being honest, I don't feel. I've read a lot about him and seen pictures. I don't feel a kind of a visceral kinship because I never met him. When you were growing up, did you feel any shame or kind of a real connection? So did your spirits ride on? Maybe he wasn't so bad, or maybe he was terrible, you know? Is this something that you feel affected you deeply personally, or is this just a fascinating intellectual journey to go on?
- [07:00]
B
I think it's a combination of things. On the one side, he was a phantom for me. I never met him. I had never a personal relationship to him. But on the other side, I also felt, especially in school, that there was something special with him, because I've been growing up in a kind of no man's land. I'm not the grandson of Heinrich Himmler or anybody of the big. Of the big Nazis. But on the other side, most of my school comrades grew up with the knowledge or the imagination of a knowledge that their grandfathers hadn't been Nazis. And in my case, it was obvious there was something. There was something big. So I had to defend myself to a certain extent. In school, though, I never felt guilty, but the teachers always asked me, what about your grandfather? And what do you think about National Socialism? One time more than the others.
- [07:54]
A
Okay, well, listen, Lawrence, I'm going to take you off my amateurish psychologist's chair here, and let's actually just briefly recap. Is life a very typical life, you could say, for someone who ended up doing what he was doing, served in the First World War, which must have in itself been a traumatizing, radicalizing experience, ended up in the Freikorps, these right wing militias that were furious about the sort of collapse of German imperial power, the shame of Germany that followed the First World War, and from then into the Nazi party. So quite a standard journey, you might say.
- [08:25]
B
Yeah, a standard journey. He went bankrupt as well. He lost three fourths of his brothers and sisters due to tuberculosis, fallen soldiers, his father as well. And the people that were responsible for that were for him, of course, the Entente from the outside and from the inside, all those democrats and socialists.
- [08:47]
A
Sorry, we should say he lost his siblings during the war. So from the hunger and the conditions they faced during the Allied blockade of Germany, for example.
- [08:53]
B
Yeah, both his eldest brother was killed in action already in 1915. And I think the last brother, he was only three or four years old, died due to tuberculosis in the 20s.
- [09:06]
A
Right, okay. He went to the east in 1941. And this is when he goes from being an enthusiastic Nazi into something darker. Accusations of war criminality. And what have you found? Bring us up to speed. We talked about in the previous podcast, but people haven't listened. What have you found? And then we'll go on to your subsequent discoveries in a second.
- [09:29]
B
What I found out was mainly the truth that my father told me already when I was a child. Ernst was responsible as a grave digger from Rumbola for the killing of 25,000 Jews and more. And he has also been responsible as a person that oversaw the killings at the first of the graves for at least half an hour. That is the core. That is obvious and that is true.
- [09:56]
A
So you say he's a grave digger. He was an engineer, wasn't he? Yeah, he brought in as an engineer.
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B
He was an engineer. He constructed the pits. He oversaw the construction of the pits. In the end, they were erected by Soviet Union prisoners of war, 300 of them. And that's what he did.
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A
And then having constructed the pits, he was also party to the execution. And at that point of the war, it's a holocaust of bayonets and bullets. Right. I mean, it's a of lot unsophisticated. They're just massing people on the edge of these pits and murdering them and throwing them in.
- [10:26]
B
Exactly.
- [10:27]
A
And did he leave any written account? Do we know how he felt at this point? Or have you been able to work out whether he was enthusiastic in all of this or whether this was driven by a belief that there was a global Zionist, the Jewish conspiracy aimed at bringing down Germany? I mean, did he think he was striking a blow against that? Or had he Realized that these are men, women and children. Was he appalled at what was going on?
- [10:51]
B
I think the thing is that both persons were inside him. We have Corrico Lum vitae from him from the 1930s that he had written for the SS where it was absolutely clear that he was in favor of the National Socialistic ideology. And then we have the testimonies he gave to the prosecutor and to the judges in the 60s, where he was an old man already, where he felt ashamed, where he said, okay, this was a horrible thing. I had to do. I didn't want to. I had to do. And we have, I think, about half an hour conversation, yet only once with my father, where he said the same things that it was horrible what he did, but he had no other option. It was impossible to escape these orders.
- [11:41]
A
You've mentioned the 1960s. So he was arrested or detained or took part voluntarily. How did that work in the 1960s? Did the hand come knocking at the door looking for him?
- [11:51]
B
It was a relatively slow process because at the beginning he was not in the center of the prosecutor. He just had to testify what he had seen. And it took years until the prosecutor told him to come to Hamburg because he was suspicious, because they wanted to know more about his personal role in the killings of Rombola. But in this time he had already cancer. He was very ill. And like for most of the Nazis in this time, it was relatively easy to escape. One thing was illness, and the other thing was that they said, as long as I didn't want to kill the Jews, as long as I had to, I will not go into jail.
- [12:36]
A
Okay, so there was a pretty clear playbook by that point, how to wriggle out of things?
- [12:40]
B
Yeah, definitely.
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A
Was there a social penalty? I mean, neighbors, community, your father's colleagues and. And your schoolmates. I mean, was that a form of punishment as well, when you found out there was a. Someone who'd been detained, someone who'd been questioned, living on. On your street in Germany at the time?
- [12:56]
B
For me.
- [12:58]
A
Well, for your father. And then for you as well? Yeah, yeah.
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B
For my father, I think not so much. I mean, he talked about it in every occasion that was possible. Christmas time with his family, in summertime, at the barbecue with neighbors. But they always said, come on, Peter, let it be. So for them, it is kind of a normality that Peter talks about such things. For me, it was a bit different. As I mentioned, my school time already looking backwards, I think I felt a bit like Muslims after 9, 11. So that I received one additional question. Okay, Lawrence, you also think that the Nazis were evil. Right. So I always had to defend myself a bit, though. I was innocent. Yeah. So this was the way I dealt with the things.
- [13:41]
A
Okay, so that brings us largely up to the point at which we left it last time with that fascinating discussion, but your journey continues. First of all, why you're a truth seeker in your professional life. Why keep going, why keep pulling at this thread?
- [13:56]
B
Because I found out, by accident, so to speak, that there was much more. I found a publisher that convinced me to write a book, and in my pre research, I found more than 15,000 additional pages of court files.
- [14:14]
A
Wow.
- [14:15]
B
The reason is because they had been digitized in the meantime. And these court files opened new traces for me. First, to a prosecutor that interrogated Ernst. The second, to a large underground factory project of the Nazis in Austria, Project Quartz. And the last, the denazification file of him.
- [14:34]
A
And so with all that new information, you couldn't turn your back on that?
- [14:37]
B
No, absolutely not.
- [14:40]
A
So tell me about. Should we start with Project Quartz? That sounds remarkable. Tell me about that.
- [14:44]
B
Yeah, of course. The person who brought me back to Project Quartz was a British historian, Mary Fullbrock. She told me that in Austria, at the location where Ernst was on service at the end of the war, were horrible tunnels. She told me. And that was the reason why I double checked all the things I had already and I found a two liner I had overseen before. And in this two liner I registered that the last location of action where Ernst had been was actually Project Quartz. And that was the reason why I started to read a book about Project Quads. And Project Quads was really a horrible project the Nazis started. They had to start it because the Allied bombers destroyed their industry and they had to find a Plan B.
- [15:35]
A
And the Plan B was burying that industry.
- [15:39]
B
Yeah, the Plan B was to bring as much as possible of the factories of the plants under the surface and produce planes and tanks and weapons under the surface. This is a gigantic endeavor. And it's not only a question of resources, but also a question of manpower. And as you know, at the end of the World War, there were not many men left to work in factories. So the solution for the Nazis was to use prisoners of war, Jewish people and criminals. They had to do the job under horrible conditions.
- [16:17]
A
And people might be familiar. There's some in what was Silesia now in south western Poland, there's more buried, incomplete factories. And what I've learned walking around those is they are just horrifically difficult to construct and indeed work within them, even when they've been built. So you're talking about brutal, brutal conditions I'm imagining and a terrible toll taken on those forced laborers. Those slave laborers? Yeah.
- [16:40]
B
The people lived or survived in ordinary concentration camps. They weren't an inch better than the other ones. And as you pointed out, they worked under horrible conditions without enough food. They had to work in the water. They were very often victims of explosions, they were victims of shootings because they didn't work for fast enough. If they became ill, they were dying because they didn't receive a medicine. They had to stand outside because a lot of the trains didn't come due to the bombings. They were on their feet for more than 16 to 20 hours. It was absolutely horrible for them to work there. And that's the reason why one third of all those people there in this concentration camp in Melk were killed in the Second World War.
- [17:32]
A
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- [20:24]
B
Ernst was one of the construction managers on the site. There were two of them. He was a deputy. And against this backdrop, he was a guy who was responsible for the work progress. So if the progress was not fast enough, then he was the person who decided about the. It's ironic or it's sarcasm to say security conditions, but he was the one who decided who has to take a bigger risk to increase the speed of the work speed.
- [20:57]
A
So he, you believe, is directly responsible for much of the hardship because the workers could have worked less than 20 hours a day on their feet. So you think his fingerprints are all over this?
- [21:08]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the SS contingent was relatively slow. I think you should mention that most of the work was overseen by silver factories, Austrian civil factories, because the SS also had a lack of personnel at the end of the Second World War. But they were in charge for the workspace and they had to take the final decisions there.
- [21:29]
A
Were you able to look at archives or even talk to people? Probably not now, sadly. But were you able to see your grandfather through the eyes of the workers? Were you able to access any documents or sources that talked about him?
- [21:43]
B
Not by the workers. And that's interesting to see because I made here the similar observation. Like in Riga, the Jewish people just weren't able to take a closer look on the officers. It was even dangerous to do such things. But I received an impression of the behavior of the SS people from other citizens because the SS behaved in the area around Merk, according to a mayor there, like occupiers, not like friends. They just took what they needed, they destroyed what they Thought had to be destroyed. For example, giving houses, if they were standing in a way of a new road that had to be built, all those things. There were many rumors, there were many differences between the civil societies, the civil Nazis there and the SS in that time. They were really reckless.
- [22:44]
A
But when you have looked at those survivors accounts, the Holocaust took many different forms. I mean, would you include this under the banner of the Holocaust? I mean, these people are being worked till they die, they're being enslaved, effectively working in horrific conditions, and they're also being forced to live in concentration camps. So this is just another corner, just another branch of what we call the Holocaust.
- [23:05]
B
Yeah, it is. And it's maybe an even more perfidious one because you do not just kill people, but you also try to press as much out of them as possible, all of their workforce, before you kill them.
- [23:20]
A
Do we know anything about how else he would have conducted himself? I mean, was he in comfortable surroundings? I mean, how far separated from the brutal reality of what was going on was he?
- [23:33]
B
At least he was separated from this brutal reality after his work, because he didn't live in the concentration camp. All the people that were on the construction site were living and drinking and sleeping in a hotel not far away. So they had very comfortable conditions. I don't know how much Ernst enjoyed them. Of course, I know from another record that he preferred a relatively simple life. But nevertheless, he wasn't faced with all the horror of the concentration camp realities when he was there. That was the job from other SS officers.
- [24:14]
A
But just in case people think that he might have perhaps not understood exactly what was going on, tell us about your next discovery, because it makes it all too clear that he did know exactly who was suffering and in what numbers. Talk to me about his denazification files. It's a remarkable discovery, and it was
- [24:32]
B
a discovery I made at the very end of my research. It was possible due to two circumstances. One was AI I fed a large language model with a complex prompt with all the locations where Ernst had been in his time as a prisoner of war. There were many of them and of his life afterwards.
- [24:53]
A
So we should say because he was captured at the close of the Second World War and was imprisoned.
- [24:58]
B
Exactly. Ernst was captured at the end of the Second World War in Ebensee in Austria by the US Americans, and then spent more than two years as a prisoner of war in their camps. And the other thing was, after he returned from the prison, the rest of his life he was in Kirspe in northern Westphalia. So I fetched the LMM with all this information. And I received a long list with possible locations where his denazification file might be. And at the very end of the list there was the Federal Archive of North Rhine Westphalia in Dusseldorf. And this is the other thing. There was a very, very helpful archivist. He found finally the denazification file of Ernst misfiled under Heernica, not Hemica and non digitized. That's the reason.
- [25:52]
A
And so you were given this. I mean, that's extraordinary. So there was a file that had so far eluded you. And just tell us what is a denazification file? What are they? How many of these would there have been? How many former Nazis generated one of these files?
- [26:05]
B
You know, almost every German man was more or less a Nazi. And when you have been part of the notional socialistic Democratic Party or of the SS or of any other Nazi organization, you had to run through this denazification process in western Germany. So there were millions of these files. And the progress changed after the end of the Second World War. the beginning it was very really strict. And then, you know that better than me, the Cold War came and you needed all those people. So you had many, many processes that were abbreviated and shortened. And then the people were set free and everything was fine. And with Ernst, the depressing thing is that I found sentences from him. He told the denazification people that he had put the trigger. He shoot Jews in the Second World War. He had mentioned it at his former working place in Liencheid and he confirmed that he had said these things. And yeah, this was really depressing for me.
- [27:15]
A
And you're reading about this in a transcript. Are you seeing his words on the paper?
- [27:18]
B
I'm seeing his words on the paper. It's a transcription file.
- [27:22]
A
Yeah.
- [27:23]
B
And this made something for me. You know, the thing is, I'm crystal clear he was part of the Holocaust anyhow. But if you discover as a grandson that he pulled the trigger against all the things he told before in testimonies and in the family, it really does something with you.
- [27:43]
A
It's funny how still just you can oversee, you can organize, you can set the logistics up. But there's something about pulling the trigger, isn't there, that feels like a different, different level. Did he talk about the circumstances? Was it part of these mass executions? Or was it a sort of individual punishment? Was it one off? I mean, did you know any more?
- [28:02]
B
No, he wasn't specific at that moment. I do not know if this. In Germany we say gna den schuss so killing people that are already heavily wounded or ill or something like. Or they weren't hit precisely by another shooter. Then you do the final shot. That's Ignantius. I don't know if he referred to something that happened in Rumbola or if he refers to something that happened at Project Quartz or maybe something in between. I mean there are indications that he may also have been part of an anti partisan operation of the SS Operation Swamp Fever in the Soviet Union, in Belarus or something else. Yeah, I don't know. It remains in the fog of war despite that.
- [28:52]
A
How has he dealt with after this denazification file is assembled and presumably would have gone through some sort of process. Was it sent to judges or American occupiers? What was the process after that debriefing and that attestation, noting everything down the
- [29:10]
B
board that was responsible for the denazification progress just closed the file and they called him a Mittlfer. That's level four of five. So the second lowest level that was possible.
- [29:25]
A
Now why do you think that is? Is that because depressingly that probably is what he was given. The monstrous crimes of that period of that regime that actually even pulling the trigger still puts you fairly low down the pecking order in terms of that criminality. Or was it corruption or desire to obscure the past. Why was he labeled a Mittlaufer in
- [29:49]
B
the time when the file was closed? I think it was just the political circumstance that they didn't want to punish him. And as I laid out later on when he went to testimonies, the prosecutors didn't know anything about this file. He was lucky that they didn't know about it, I think.
- [30:12]
A
And that's just what it is. It's just life. The whole system was so vast. And indeed this file had been catalogued incorrectly as well. Yeah.
- [30:20]
B
And I mean you can look at the German dealing with the Nazi crimes in two ways. The one way is you can say there are a lot of unfound crimes. I think that's the truth. On the other side, this is what Philip Sands told me and I think he has a point. There are not many countries that have tried so hard to find people that were responsible, especially in the last 10 or 15 years. I mean today Ernst would never went out of prison with the things he did. I think both is true. These are two sides of the metal. You can never find all of them. And today you would try to find much more out of the crimes that were committed to. But I think most of them, this is also what the prosecutor told me that interrogated Ernst the last time they tried to do what they were able to do in the time they had.
- [31:10]
A
How would it have affected your family if he'd been locked up, do you think? Would that have changed your situation?
- [31:16]
B
Well, I don't have a crystal ball then, but I think, of course it would have changed a lot because with a grandfather going to prison, people who still try to turn away from what has happened, who try to do not think about it, would have been forced to do it because there would have been no excuse with that what has happened. He was never convicted. You were always, for decades able to say he was not responsible.
- [31:48]
A
Okay.
- [31:49]
B
Until my book came out.
- [31:50]
A
But before, at the end of this process, as someone who, although, as you say, is nuanced in your case, but that you have a direct personal stake in this, do you think in the aftermath of monstrous criminality, wherever it occurs in history, wherever it occurs all over the world, that the best solution is very aggressive stock taking, justice pursued to the nth degree? Or has something about Germany's mixed approach been pragmatic and effective? Where have you come down on that kind of big strategic idea?
- [32:29]
B
I think that with the way the Germans took in the 60s and in the 70s, they made a step. I'm from another generation. As someone from our generation, I would be more happy with a more transparent approach, especially if you take a look at the circumstances we are living in right now. I mean, in the end, Ernst was an average person with an above average selfishness. And to erect an autocracy to kill people, you cannot do it only with fundamentalists and sadists. They are too few. You need people like Ernst, you need millions of them. And I think what was a key moment for me was when I understood that Ernst was a person like you or like me, with another way of life. We were blessed with our way of life so far, but the risk that people like Ernst will do things like in the past again is there. History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes and we see it every day in our world. And I think this is the key conclusion for me of the book.
- [33:38]
A
So we should have pursued Ernst more than we did.
- [33:42]
B
Yes.
- [33:45]
A
Well, Laurence, thank you very much for coming back on the podcast and talking about it. Can't be easy for you, but we're very, very grateful indeed. If people want to read the book or follow your work, how can they do that?
- [33:55]
B
They can find it at Amazon, of course, and they can take a look at Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, where I'm writing as an author as well.
- [34:03]
A
Great. I hope they do that. Thank you very much for coming on the podcast again.
- [34:06]
B
Thank you so much, Dan. Bye.
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A
Thank you so much to you for listening to this episode of Dan Snow's History It. We could not make this podcast without you. That's actually true. So make sure if you want to keep it going, that is to hit follow in your podcast player right now, you'll get new episodes dropped into your podcast library automatically. By the power of tech, you can listen anywhere you get your pods, Apple, Spotify, even BBC Sounds. Imagine a world. Just imagine, you never miss an episode of this podcast. I mean, it's there. The technology makes that possible. That could be your reality right now if you hit follow. See you next time. Have you been enjoying my podcast and now want even more history? Sign up to History and watch the world's best history documentaries on subjects like how William conquered England, what it was like to live in the Georgian era, and you can even hear the voice of Richard iii. We've got hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, and there's always something more to discover. Sign up to join us in historic locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyit.com subscribe.