← Dan Snow's History Hit
Dan Snow's History Hit
Life in the Trenches
00:38:50
What was life really like in the trenches of the First World War?
Loading summary
Transcript65 lines
- [00:00]
Dan Snow
Have you been enjoying my podcast and now want even more history? Sign up to History and watch the world's best history documentaries on subjects like how William conquered England, what it was like to live in the Georgian era, and you can even hear the voice of Richard iii. We've got hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, and there's always something more to discover. Sign up to join us in historic locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyit.com subscribe
- [00:33]
Boost Mobile Advertiser
here's how to stay alive longer so you can enjoy Boost Mobile's unlimited plan with a price that never goes up. Do not mistake a wasp nest for a pinata. Stay alive and switch now at boost mobile. After 30 gigs, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost Mobile Unlimited plan.
- [00:48]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressives name your price tool for years now, with the name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget. And so, whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit progressive.com, find a rate that works for you with the name your price tool Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and Coverage match Limited by state
- [01:16]
Optum Healthcare Advertiser
law, Healthcare can feel complicated. That's why Optum uses technology to connect the people and processes that make healthcare easier, more affordable, and more effective. We're making it clearer for you to know exactly what your benefits cover and to help you better manage your health. We're coordinating care between your doctors and your technology. We believe better, simpler healthcare is always possible. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit optum.com to learn more.
- [01:49]
Dan Snow
The worst time and place in history maybe life in the trenches of World War I wasn't just about facing the enemy. It was about surviving all sorts of other things. The filth, the disease, the frostbite, the psychological challenge. Imagine mud stretching as far as the eye can see. Wooden planks barely keeping your feet from sinking. Sandbagged walls rising only a few feet around you. Walls in which remains of the unburied dead stuck out. The air is thick with smoke. The thrum of artillery shakes the ground beneath your feet. Around you, soldiers lived shoulder to shoulder. There are rats and filth. You know that at any moment a shell could explode, a rifle bullet could tear into you, or a deadly cloud of Gas could drift over that parapet. For four long years, millions of men endured this harsh, claustrophobic reality where even the smallest injury or illness could prove fatal. In today's episode, we're going to be exploring how soldiers managed to survive this relentless environment. What threats lurked in the trenches beyond enemy fire and the human ingenuity, the resilience, the camaraderie that kept them alive through one of history's deadliest wars. And not just alive, in fact, for some of them, they even enjoyed it. I'm joined by Joshua Levine, author of lots and lots of wonderful books. Most pertinent, today's discussion, Forgotten Voices of the Somme. And that draws on first hand accounts to document the day to day struggles of trench life and the heat of combat during the Battle of the Somme. Right, let's, let's get into it. Josh Levine, good to see you.
- [03:51]
Joshua Levine
Lovely to be here, Dan, Thanks.
- [03:52]
Dan Snow
Let's take the biggest question out of the way. First. We talk about trench warfare, we talk about the Western Front. So from let's say late 1914 to sort of 1916, that era, what is a trench? What would it look like?
- [04:05]
Joshua Levine
So, well, let's define what a trench is in the first place, because it's not necessarily straightforward. A trench clearly is digging in in order to defend yourself from whatever the enemy is throwing at you, whether it's coming at you, whether it's firing at you, and has been around for thousands of years. It's a really basic, fundamental idea. And over the years it became more elaborate. You did have trench systems, but they were only ever intended to be temporary, you know, in the American Civil War and the Boer War, the years leading up to the First World War. But at the time of the First World War, none of this, none of what happened was in any way anticipated it was going to be a mobile war. At the beginning, it was a mobile war, but you had the Germans held up as they were advancing at the Marne and then you had them building a series of trenches and the British and Response built trenches. And I've got this extraordinary account that I found in the National Archive from an observer. So someone flying alongside a pilot, because the airplanes at this point were doing reconnaissance, looking down and on the AISNE on the 13th of September. So, you know, really soon into the war, seeing the Germans building trenches, that's really the, that's the kickoff point for the First World War as we know it. So then the British would build, or the Allies would build trenches and that began the race to the sea. And what that Meant was basically trying to outflank, trying to outflank, trying to outflank. But every time an outflanking move was made, another trench was built. So trench, trench, trench, trench, trench all the way to the North Sea one side and the frontier was Switzerland on the other side. So what, over 400 miles you're talking
- [05:55]
Dan Snow
about the firepower revolution has happened. So the, the air is so full of supersonic shell fragments and shrapnel and rifle bullets, machine gun bullets, that actually to be, to stay alive, you have to go underground.
- [06:08]
Joshua Levine
And if you think about the developments that have been made, so this is a time of incredible development in terms of weaponry. So what were some of these developments? Well, you know, in terms of artillery, you know, guns didn't have to be recalibrated, you know, in the old days. They would, you know, jump backwards and you'd have to mount them, set them up again. Didn't have to do that now. So, you know, your rate of fire was so much quicker. And also the, you know, the power, the strength of them. You know, I was trying to work it out the other day that one of the, you know, the stock field gun, British field gun, the 18 pounder, I think you could look at it fire to good fire. If you put it in Charing Cross, I think I'm right in saying it, it could hit gold is green. Not saying you'd want to, but, but, but you could. And, and even the machine guns, you know, the, the, the development of the machine guns, you know, you had the Vickers gun, which was the heavy gun on British side, the Lewis gun, which was the, the light machine gun, could be carried by one man, could be fired from shoulder, fired from the hip or set up on a bipod, you know, that could, that could reach Camden Town. I worked out, you know, these were, and firing hundreds of rounds a minute.
- [07:17]
Dan Snow
So one man effectively is now able to have packed the punch of an entire battalion of infantry in the 100 years previously.
- [07:23]
Joshua Levine
And if you look at communications, for example, field telephones which relied on wires, much easier to go backwards. You know, if you're advancing, you basically lose communication. The developments in defenses like barbed wire, which could channel people into killing zones as they came forward, all of these developments were really helping the defenders. You know, they weren't useful, particularly to the attackers. And in a situation like that, the ultimate defense is a trench. You know, you can get into a trench, you can, you're not safe. You know, in the early years, in the later years, if a shell, you Know, as artillery becomes more and more important and there's more and more of it, and the economies of the nations gear up to building more and more guns, you know, a shell lands in your trench, lands near you, you know, you're for it. And there are snipers everywhere. You always have to be careful of snipers. There are a lot of ways to die in a trench, but they're a hell of a lot safer than being above ground. So this is why they developed and this is why the war became one of stasis for so many years.
- [08:37]
Dan Snow
And are sort of image of the First World War is people, not, not even necessarily the big offensives, the big battles, it's just people the way they lived and just sort of fought attritionally in these trenches for, for months, for years on end. Now tell me, would, is it, is it, is that, is that a myth? Is it true? Would units be living in this sort of muddy trench?
- [09:02]
Joshua Levine
No, I think that is one of the myths that, you know, people arrived in the trench, they stayed in the trench, and they came out of the trench on Armistice Day. You know, that's not what happened. I mean, and there were practical reasons for the rotation. Basically, you would be in the front line trench, four, five, six days at most. Then you would probably go back to the support trench, which was behind, so the front line trench. Basically, you had a firestep. It would be what, it would be a bit taller than a man. It would have a fire step that you would stand on in order to see over the top to see what was ahead. You'd probably have a periscope there. It would be quite heavily revetted, would be built up with sandbags, would be built up with wood. And you might have funk holes at the front which were dugouts, almost like
- [09:57]
Dan Snow
a little bunk bed, like one of
- [09:58]
Joshua Levine
those Scandinavian bunk beds, Just a little hole really, that a man could squeeze into. And they were actually discouraged because they were sort of undermining the trenches. But people did it because they did it. And you would have dugouts, not particularly elaborate dugouts, but, you know, enough for officers for, for whatever really. I mean, people like to say, oh, yes, this was for X, this was for Y. You know, you've got a. You've got a huge system of trenches covering hundreds of miles over. Over four years. I mean, yeah, they did. They were used for what they were used for.
- [10:32]
Dan Snow
And so you spend not, not that long, actually a couple of days.
- [10:35]
Joshua Levine
You spent a few days in the
- [10:36]
Dan Snow
front line, but you'd get muddy and Filthy.
- [10:39]
Joshua Levine
You get absolutely muddy and filthy. And again, it depended where of course, you know, and pen to the time of year. And it depended on many, many things. But yes, I mean, it is true to say that a lot of the time you were living in filth, you were living with rats, you were living with lice. You, you might have trench foot. You know, trench foot was, you know, the boots were leather, they were perfectly good. I think they got better boots in 1915. But, you know, 20,000 people had trench foot by the end of 1914. And your feet got wet, cold, they never dried out and they almost started to rot. You know, people ended up with gangrene. They were losing toes, they were losing. And so that, you know, you had foot inspection, you know, in the morning where officers. It's a surreal picture where officers were sort of inspecting the feet of their men. It's almost like the, you know, the Pope kissing the feet of the, of the people and, and they would rub whale oil in into their feet, into their socks. The boots were, you know, changed slightly so they were rough on the outside so you could rub oil in and make them more waterproof. In certain very wet areas, Flanders, for example, people were given rubber waders or rubber boots. So that was, you know, that. And then after, after they'd more or less eradicated it, it was, it actually became a crime. It was considered a self inflicted wound to have to have trench foot. Trench fever you got from the feces of lice and basically you had the lice you'd be scratching and feces would get inside or the poison would get inside. And that was a really nasty disease. It took a while to incubate and then you were, you know, high fever and pain for five days. It would go, it would come back and then it was one of these kind of things. We probably move on to this. But you know, because you're out of action potentially for three months didn't kill you. People saw it as almost as good as a blighty wound. You know, you were out of the line for three months, you felt terrible, you weren't going to die. So, you know, there was that, there was the mud, there was the cold
- [12:47]
Dan Snow
and the unburied dead from previous attacks.
- [12:49]
Joshua Levine
Unburied, dead. Unburied. Dead inside the trenches, you know, that you. Sometimes the walls were built up. You know, there was a story of one man was talking about walking down one of the communication trenches, you know, to get to the front line. And he said there was an arm sticking out and we never moved it because it became a sort of friend, you know, we'd. Some people shake his hand, some people would say, you know, hello, chum. And it became, you know, it's part of the grim humor, but. But, you know, it also shows that there were people inside the, you know, the fabric of the trench. One man said, you know, he moved into a trench that had recently been a French trench and he was doing some wiring one night and he fell into basically some bodies, some decomposed bodies. And he said it was the most disgusting feeling. He sort of pulled himself out of it, I think he said it was like jam. And he pulled him. I mean, can you imagine? Just the astonishing.
- [13:52]
Dan Snow
And we haven't really talked about enemy fire particularly yet, but. So that's the condition. The frontline trench you mentioned, the communication trench, so they have a lot of time on their hands and a lot of bodies. So they're digging back to a second line of trenches and even a third line, are they. So the troops are sort of rotating through. So after some time in the front line, you might go back to the second line. So you'd have a very different experience. And then. And then beyond the third line, you might go back to have a bit of R and R, way back. So your experience on the Western Front would be very different depending on your rotation.
- [14:25]
Joshua Levine
Absolutely. And you know, the. Like I said, there is this idea. You were always there, stand to, and you're always ready to go over the top. Of course that's not true. The support trench, which, I don't know, about 100 yards behind, you'd have been a kind of reserve troop and there'd be supplies in there, there'd be soldiers ready to move forward if necessary. You'd have a reserve trench quite a lot further back, 500 yards further back. And there you might have a regimental aid post, you know, the first of the. The medical posts. You might have a command post. You might have a. I don't know, some kind of.
- [15:01]
Dan Snow
A bit of a bigger kitchen, perhaps.
- [15:03]
Joshua Levine
Yeah, you get absolutely punching out some hot food and then you at the rear, and then you have communication trenches leading all the way back. You know, it was a proper maze. If you were arriving in the trenches, you would hopefully have a guide to bring you forward because, you know, it was very complicated to know exactly where. Trenches had names, you know, communication trenches had names, the junctions had names, you know, from wherever the local troops were from. If they were Scottish, they'd be McGlasgow names. London might be Piccadilly Circus. Um, and so it was a complicated business. You would go back to the reserve trench, you would go behind the lines, whereas you say you would have some, you know, you'd have a bath for one thing, you'd be able to clean up, you'd be able to go and see a concert party, you could, you know, there were things you could do and then you might get some leave. You know, every year, 18 months, you might get to go home. And that's another story again, because you were living such a different life to anyone at home that it could be a great relief to be home or it could be a massive culture shock
- [16:07]
Dan Snow
and a disappointment and they're year round and in a way it's that rotation that allows you because in the, in winter, some of those frontline trenches, if you kept men in them for a long time, they die. So, but, but it's the fact that we got this sophisticated system, massive state funded, state backed, sophisticated modern nation states are able to keep these sort of people in these treasures. To keep a city in the field,
- [16:34]
Joshua Levine
it's not even a city because it's over such a wide, you know, it's way bigger than the city. And, and yes, so, so they had to keep that absolutely going. You know, you had massive, you know, bakery behind the lines that would be delivered.
- [16:49]
Dan Snow
You'd have people constantly like railway bringing
- [16:51]
Joshua Levine
supplies, railway, well, light railway and then, you know, a heavy railway, you know, going back to the ports. And so you had a, so let's give examples of this. You had a system, a med, you had a kind of a medical system and a postal system working in reverse of each other. So essentially if you were wounded, you have the stretcher bearers picking you up. They would take you back to the regimental aid post. You would then go back to a whole series of further medical posts, you know, advanced posts, main posts, then back to a spot where you could actually have surgery and then back to a main hospital and then back to the port where you'd be taken back to England. All of this was so carefully worked out. Now it didn't always work, bit like the health service didn't always work, but it was there for you. And so, you know, you would only get, you know, the preliminary spots. You get triage basically, you know, you might, you get at the regimental, the first one, you get some morphine and then more could be done for you. The Thomas Splint, I don't know if you've heard of this Thomas Splint, you know, this extraordinary development where, you know, if you had A femur injury. It was really a death sentence before this. You know, you would be carried and you'd have the ends of the bones against each other. The pain would be astonishing. And you would lose so many people to gangrene and to whatever else. This was a splint, you know, it would keep the leg steady, and it meant that people could be carried long distances and they could live. Credible development, all. You know, it was actually pre war, but it was perfected at this time. And this was all part of the medical system that would allow you to be taken further back as was necessary until you could actually be operated on. Now, don't get me wrong, the purpose of all this was to bring you back into action as quickly as possible. You know, this wasn't, you know, to give people a nice, you know, bit of rest. And. But having said that, it was done well and a lot of people ended up, you know, back in England with. With honorable discharges. And I've just found recently, fantastic story of a man who was sent all the way back, you know, in great pain, ended up in a hospital in England. And he was visited every day by one of these sort of do good, do good women, sort of, you know, a certain class who visit him. And she kept asking him, where were you hurt? Where were you wounded? And he tried to put her off by saying, you know, in France. And she said, no, no, where we. And eventually he got fed up and he said, madam, if you were wounded, where I was wounded, you would not have been wounded at all. And she left and she never came back. And so, you know, this is the idea, you know, all these different kinds of wounds, injuries. Some were able to come back. So, you know, for example, if you had trench fever, you were taken off for a bit of. A bit of rest, and then you were brought back as soon as possible. But if you had something more serious, you ended up as one of those unfortunate people back in England who, you know, after the war, ended up begging on the street. So, you know, but the reverse of that was the postal system, because the authorities were very clever in the same way that they rotated. They didn't rotate because they wanted people to have a decent time. They rotated because they knew if you were in the front line for too long, you were useless. You know, you weren't getting any sleep. You were getting, if you're lucky, four or five hours of broken sleep a night lying on the. On the firestep. So, you know, you were doing all of these incredibly stressful jobs. So you had to be, you were no use. You had to be brought back and allowed to have more rest. Well, another thing that was very practical was the postal system. It kept morale up. You if people were getting letters from home on a regular basis or getting
- [21:01]
Dan Snow
fruitcakes or chocolate or heroin socks knitted by your heroin.
- [21:05]
Joshua Levine
Yes, we can come on to that. But, but, or socks. Exactly socks. Or whale oil, I don't know where that came from. But you know, then they were going to be happier. You wanted people, clearly you didn't want people complaining all the time. They're going to do that anyway, so. But you didn't want them to do it too much. So this postal system was astonishing. You know, you would have millions and millions of letters arriving a day and they were, you know, they'd be brought to a couple of central hubs in London, I think city, Regents park, and then brought to the coast and then brought over in steamers and then brought again in stages. Very much like going back on the hospitals, they'd be brought to basically a sort of trench post office, a sort of frontline post office and be delivered into the trenches. And I think that's remarkable actually. And all of this set up in such a short period of time when it mattered, they could do it. And it also gives you a sense of what the authorities had to set up quickly. You know, how the economy had to change, how industry had to change, how everything had to be changed when a very large portion of the British public were now living in France.
- [22:18]
Dan Snow
It's amazing what we can do when we put our minds to it. It's extraordinary. It's a shame it tends to be in the face of war. Joshua, more from you in a second. Don't go away folks. This is Dan Snows history. We're talking about trench warfare.
- [22:33]
Optum Healthcare Advertiser
Healthcare can feel complicated. That's why Optum uses technology to connect the people and processes that make healthcare easier, more affordable and more effective. We're making it clearer for you to know exactly what your benefits cover and to help you better manage your health. We're quarterly coordinating care between your doctors and your technology. We believe better, simpler healthcare is always possible. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit optum.com to learn more.
- [23:03]
Dan Snow
Boost Mobile is now sending experts nationwide to deliver and set up customers new phones. Wait, we're going on tour?
- [23:08]
Joshua Levine
We're delivering and setting up customers phones.
- [23:10]
Dan Snow
It's not a tour, not with that attitude.
- [23:12]
Joshua Levine
Introducing store to door switch and get a new device with expert setup and delivery.
- [23:16]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Delivery available for select devices purchased@boostmobile.com this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [23:38]
Pura Fragrance Advertiser
Close your eyes. Summer smells like sunshine, fresh citrus and salty air. What if your living room could feel just like that? With Pura's new summer collection, it can restore your sense of well being with fragrances designed to move with your day. From bright, energizing mornings to soft, relaxing evenings make the invisible unforgettable this season. Visit pur.com to find your new favorite summer scent.
- [24:08]
Dan Snow
Josh that gives a sense of the trenches A dangerous, often boring place to be at the best of times. Let's talk about the worst of times. Places like Flanders that people be familiar with. Very, very famous in the first world context. Low lying, below sea level sometimes, or at sea level, drainage systems smashed so marsh, bog, so the trenches become those drain systems. So you're wading around in water, effluent, mud, sewage, muck, January, December, February, I mean nightmarish as well as all that. You've got the enemy, so you've got no man's land. And then what's going you've what you've got snipers. Tell me that how many ways to die are there in a trench?
- [24:52]
Joshua Levine
Many, many ways to die in a trench. So I mean, I suppose you've got to make the point that the trench was relatively safe. You know, if you were going over the top on an advance, you know, you were in a great deal more danger. But there were many ways to die in the trench, or indeed at night coming out of the trench. So I suppose your biggest danger was on a day to day basis was artillery. So the trenches would all be, they wouldn't be straight, they would be zigzagged. And of course if you think about it, that makes perfect sense. You'd have these traverses and the idea being that if a shell exploded in the trench, the force of it couldn't go all the way down. It would be broken by these crenellations, if you like. And it also meant that if somebody got into your trench and we got into it, they couldn't fire all the way down. Or indeed if a group got in, you know, they couldn't just run all the way down. They were sort of held up as they, as they moved along. So that made perfect Sense, it wasn't just the front line trench, but certainly the front line trench had to be. Had to be like that. So it was miserable inside, but it also had that level of protection, particularly against artillery shells. Now, now, people coming into a trench for the first time were in quite a lot of danger because they didn't know how to live in it. And the first thing you do always was to keep your head down because the trenches were at variable heights. You know, they weren't all built to a specification. You know, these weren't Ikea trenches that were just placed there. They had to be built, and they had to be built given whatever was there, the geography and the conditions at the time. So people arriving in would either be sort of lackadaisical and wouldn't know to get their heads down. You only had to pop your head up for a second and the sniper would take it, take your head off, or they would throw themselves down at the slightest noise. And in fact, something that the frontline officers liked to do was, you know, when you had a staff officer coming up from behind, they enjoyed it when the staff officer came up and was so scared that they threw themselves down at every, you know, that was, you know, that concert. Constant sort of, you know, competition and rivalry and sort of antipathy between the staff officer and the frontline officer. That was. That was very much at play. But so it was a great danger. And, you know, snipers were. Were a great danger. So people, not only did they have to keep their heads down, not only were the signs up, you know, reminding people to keep their heads down, people, you know, they had different ways. You know, war being the mother of invention. I read about one man, we used to be able to isolate snipers. What we used to try to do, we'd put a turnip on the parapet and then sniper, hopefully would fire and fire through it, and you could see the direction that would come. And then you'd put another turnip up a different point and he'd fire through that. And you'd be able to sort of work out. Precisely. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure how successful that was, but, you know, it's what.
- [27:55]
Boost Mobile Advertiser
It's what.
- [27:56]
Joshua Levine
It's what we used to do. And you had to be very, very careful of snipers. You had your own snipers, obviously, and so periscopes were. They even had a setup where you could sort of remotely fire a gun. Gun through some sort of mechanical. So you didn't even have to put your head up over. Over the. Over the trench. Sometimes people were incredibly lucky. Found lots of accounts, lots, but accounts of, of shells landing inside a trench. But they were duds. And one man said, a shell landed right next to me and he said, I was so fascinated. I, I picked it up, you know, pulled it out, picked it up. And an officer, an artillery officer came along and said two things. First of all, never ever touch it again. It could have gone off. And secondly, if you'd left it where it was, we could have worked out where it came from. So, you know, I suppose, you know, people didn't, shouldn't really have needed the instruction, don't lift it up once it's landed. But then there are also different kinds of artillery. So you know, the mortars, mortars are interesting because obviously they, you know, they could be in the trench opposite and, and you could hear it fire. You could often hear the whoop, whoop, whoop as it came over. And you could also see it arcing,
- [29:10]
Dan Snow
arcing sort of very far from not very far away, but through this very trajectory. Trajectory.
- [29:16]
Joshua Levine
Yeah. And, and if you saw it, you could get out of its way. At night it was more frightening because you couldn't see it. And so this was one of the things about being, you know, becoming experienced. You knew when to keep your head down. You knew basically how to behave and you also knew sort of almost instinctively how to stay safe from for example, a mortar that was, that was coming over. So there were diff, you know, you had to kind of learn this new existence of, of how to stay safe. So both safe in terms, you know, from, from the weapons that were going to hit you, fire at you, but also from, you know, how to stay healthy, you know, in the trench as well, and how to get enough sleep and how to, you know, how to eat properly and how to, and also bear in mind that the trenches, you know, we, we have again, possibly an idea that no man's land was this sort of consistent belt, because it wasn't. You know, some trenches could be a thousand yards, you know, mild, well, you know, miles, but you know, a long, long way away. In which case, you know, your, your interaction with it was, would be, your day to day interaction with it would be less and then perhaps the average would be 2, 300 yards. But then you had places where it was literally 15 yards away and the enemy trench and you know, account somebody said, you know, I'd get up in the morning and, or get up in the morning, I'd be there in the morning. They didn't sleep eight hours overnight. But and voice would come over, morning, Tommy. And I shout back, morning, Fritz. That's what it was. You know, you had a sort of weird sort of communication and that. Actually, now I think of it sort of widened itself out in terms of the routine in the. In the trench, in the frontline trench, because you would have. First thing in the morning, you would have stand to.
- [31:19]
Dan Snow
So everyone's on the fire step, everyone's on the fire, staring out into the mist in case the enemy attack at dawn.
- [31:24]
Joshua Levine
And that was the most vulnerable time. But there's almost something sort of ritual like, or religious about it that everybody would get up and almost pay their respects to the other side, and they were doing it to you as well. And you'd have what they called very euphemistically the morning hate, which was artillery fire, which would, you know, come in the morning from both sides. Again, ritual is almost like clearing the throat in the morning, getting it out the way, and then they'd stop so that either side could have breakfast.
- [31:56]
Dan Snow
Yes, it was rather mean to shell when breakfast being brought up, there are
- [32:00]
Joshua Levine
certain things you do not do. I'm being a little facetious because, I mean, obviously they were trying to kill each other. But at the same time, there were rules within, you know, within it. And you didn't, you know, that was, that was a rule. And so, you know, there was. There was a lot to get used to. The trench had a life of its own. You were living absolutely between. In this huge state, subsidized city. And if you're in the front line, you were, you know, you were really in the West End, if you like. But, but, but within that, you had to learn how to be an, you know, a city animal. You had to learn how to. How to live and to be wise to everything that was going on. And it, and it did take a while. And that included, you know, breakfast would come up. You had to know how to, how to make your breakfast. You had to know what you were eating. You had to know how to get the best of it. You had your rum ration in the morning. That was incredibly important. It was, you know, it was. And it wasn't. It was two tablespoons, you know, it wasn't going to get you drunk.
- [33:02]
Dan Snow
So everyone got two tablespoons of rum.
- [33:04]
Joshua Levine
Unless, I mean, I'm sure there were people who.
- [33:05]
Dan Snow
Well, sure, but that was the government issue.
- [33:08]
Joshua Levine
That was a government issue and it wasn't constant. You know, there were times when it wasn't coming and there were times when it came in the evening, etc. Etc. But basically, you got your. You got your arm out of these great big sort of earthenware jars, and. And it was important because, you know, it sort of fortified you, and it was also a sense that people cared about you. You know, they were. They were giving you something that helped. You know, it wasn't just keeping you alive. It was doing something more for you. It was fortifying you, was keeping a spirit, keeping your spirit up. And of course, you know, there was a lot of. There was a big temperance movement at the time, and so there were lots of people back at home saying these. They shouldn't be. This is quite wrong. And there were a lot of people in. In the trenches saying, how dare you. You come. You know, you. You temperance people come and stay out here for a bit and then see how you feel about, you know, about this. And even, you know, Woodbine Willie, you know, that wonderful padre who came out and, you know, would hand cigarettes out to the soldiers. I mean, he was temperance, and he spent some of his time, you know, saying that they shouldn't be getting alcohol. I think. I think he. I'm not sure about this, but I think he may have changed his view in the same way he changed his view about war. That. Give them something. You know, they're living a hard life out here. Give them something. So, you know, and then your meals, you'd have your McConaughey's Meat and Vegetables. And if it was. You did a video on this, didn't you? You've eaten it.
- [34:40]
Dan Snow
I've done a lot of eating in trenches over the years, Josh. This is the end, if you like, on one of the hardest things to talk about. And it's something that a lot of people watching this video may get almost offended by. In all the research you've done, you've looked at so many sources, is there a sense that at certain times, at certain places, people. People actually quite enjoyed it?
- [35:00]
Joshua Levine
Yes. Yeah. And it's almost difficult to say.
- [35:03]
Dan Snow
Yeah.
- [35:04]
Joshua Levine
You know how consensus builds up about all different events over the years, and whether it's this or 9, 11 or whatever it is, and you're not really allowed to, you know, to kick against the. But, yes, they did. Some people did. Now, clearly, nobody had a wonderful time and thought, you know, this next year, I'm going to the trenches. Not Skegness. That was not how it was. However, there were people who said, you know, well, no, actually, I qualify that. There were people who very sheepishly, after the war, said, this was this in some Ways was the best time of my life because. Not because of the danger. Although I think it, you know, certain people do experience, you know, heightened excitement and to kind of get, you know, to get off on that kind of thing. But I think more for the comradeship, more for the fact that, you know, back in Blighty, people lived their lives and their lives could be terribly mundane. They live and they die and, you know, they didn't particularly get close to others. I think here people became very, very close. They laughed together, they relied on each other. You know, what you might have remembered about the morning was less the shelling and more the fact that someone made you a cup of tea. And I think that was important. And I think when people got home after the war, a lot of people actually missed that. They didn't have that same sense of belonging, also a sense of purpose. You know, for a lot of people, there was no, what are we doing? This is completely mindless. Why. Why are we trying to kill other people that we don't have any hatred for? But in an. At another level, it gave people a. A meaning, something to do that they've perhaps not had before. It gave people new, you know, they could. When they were behind the lines, they experienced a new culture. Now, I'm not saying that every, you know, these were culture vultures who couldn't wait to get to. To Paris to see the, you know, to go and see the paintings. But on the other hand, in all kinds of different ways, you know, so many expressions we have nowadays come from that period. Egg and chips. What's more English than egg and chips? This meal they first had in France, really. And, you know, there were a lot of people going to different kinds of restaurants, going to the concert parties, going to brothels. All these experiences that people were having that they wouldn't have had at home. The concert parties I found. Wonderful account from a man who played First Girl. His life was completely changed. He came out as a member of the corporal in the Middlesex regiment and just a little corporal, you know, average. And he applied and he became a member of a concert party, the Ace of Spades concert party, which is, I think, a divisional concert party. And he played. He was quite small, quite slim, and he played First Girl. And he took the name. It was Dolly Clare. I forget. Anyway, he took a. Took a name and he always played the girl. And some. Sometimes it was, you know, big Broadway music hall review, sometimes with serious plays, melodramas. And he talked about one he was very proud of, where he had a very Tragic death at the end playing a Native American. And he said he was a very convincing girl. And his interviews in the Imperial War Museum, sound interview and something, you know, got really annoyed, angry when people suggested that he was anything other than a virile man, of course, but, you know, this was all the time. But all the same, he was playing first girl and, and doing it well. And the Colonel was invited to one of the shows and was told there were two girls and told, you've got to choose which one is the real girl. And he was chosen by the Colonel and then he was sent to see the Colonel and the Colonel, he said, oh, he was disgusted when he found out that I was a man, but I was very pleased. You know, it's, it's it. And this was a halt. So he became an actor after the war. So I suppose my point is not everybody had a wholly negative experience. And I think you're allowed to say that. The First World War, of course, was a hellish time in so many ways, but it was also time of companionship, time of opportunity. And if you look at what came after the war, for so many people, things just got worse. I mean, you know, so many of the wounded came home to no kind of safety net whatsoever. Just ended up on the streets begging. You know, they were promised a land for heroes, homes for heroes, and none of that materialized. You know, Britain more, you know, pretty soon went into depression so that, you know, at the end of the next war, people were bloody well sure they weren't going to get the same result after the end of that they got at the end of this war. So, yeah, it's a much more, it's like all of these stories, you know, and it's much more nuanced, much more interesting. And you won't get one story. So I think people should stop trying to tell one story.
- [40:32]
Dan Snow
Well, you've told many stories today. Thank you. Josh Levine. What is the book that people can
- [40:36]
Joshua Levine
go and follow up with to have? That one is called Forgotten Voices of the Somme. This one is an oral history, so lots of first person stories in it, which I think and afford by Richard Holmes, which is very nice and, and I think, yeah, I think quite an interesting book.
- [40:57]
Dan Snow
Very interesting book indeed. Thanks for coming on.
- [41:00]
Joshua Levine
Thanks, Dan.
- [41:01]
Dan Snow
Well, thank you very much, Josh. That brings us to an end today, folks. As we've heard, life in the trenches was defined not only by battle, but by endurance. And behind every offensive and every headline of the war were just ordinary men living, trying to survive in extraordinary conditions, clinging to routine and friendship and hope. Amidst all that destruction and despair, the trenches became a world of their own, one that tested the limits of human resilience and and left physical and psychological scars long after those guns fell silent. And thank goodness we've got books like Josh's, We've got accounts of the letters, the diaries. We're still able to hear those voices, those men who lived through it. Thanks again to Josh Levine for coming on the show, and thank you for listening.
- [42:18]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's Name your price tool for years now. With the name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit progressive.com find a rate that works for you with the name your Price tool, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law
- [42:49]
Dan Snow
have you been enjoying my podcast and now want even more history? Sign up to History and watch the world's best history documentaries on subjects like how William conquered England, what it was like to live in the Georgian era, and you can even hear the voice of Richard iii. We've got hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, and there's always something more to discover. Sign up to join us in historic locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyit.com subscribe.