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Dan Snow's History Hit
The Black Prince
00:53:06
The life of one of medieval England’s most formidable warriors.
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- [00:00]
Dan Snow
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- [02:38]
Dan Snow
The teenage prince was leading the vanguard. It was a position of honor and a position of danger. His father wanted his son blooded. He wanted his son to win his spurs, to emerge from his shadow, a leader in his own right. And that is exactly the young prince did that day, August 26, 1346. At that battle of Crecy, Prince Edward of England, well, he came within a hair's breadth of being hacked to death. But it's in those margins that legends are made. Henry V only just survived, taking an arrow to the face when he was a lad. Alexander the Great came millimeters from having his skull split in two at the launch of his invasion of Asia. Napoleon took a bayonet in the thigh in his first battle. And so it was with Prince Edward on that battlefield. Crecy was the first major clash of the Hundred Years War. And after that battle, overnight, Edward became one of Europe's most admired warrior princes. You're listening to Dan Snow's history and we are talking all things Edward the Black Prince on this podcast. He's the eldest son of Edward iii, one of the most celebrated military leaders of the Middle Ages. His part in the victories at Crecy and Poitiers during the Hundred Years War made him a national hero, a figure of fascination across Europe at the time and through subsequent centuries, because he also embodied the sort of ideals of chivalry and knightly honour, all the while, obviously, such as the contradiction of these things. He commanded campaigns marked by devastation and cruelty. As you'll hear, he lived at a time of shifting fortunes. I'll tell you, that wheel of fortune was spinning in that period. There was war with Scotland, there was war with France, there was the devastation of the Black Death. His life and his early death left a legacy that shaped England and France. We can look at his rise. We're going to have his triumphs. The contradictions of the Black Prince, the man behind the myth. We're going to look at his tragic early death. We're going to talk about the prince that might have been a truly great king. The other day, I was exploring Canterbury Cathedral in Kent. We are filming for a history hit documentary. Make sure you go and subscribe. And I found Edward the Black Prince's tomb. He chose to be buried in that great cathedral of Englishness. And there's the most extraordinary inscription on that tomb. His effigy, him in his armor, corrects down to the rivets. There's an inscription on that tomb which is very, very arresting. It's haunting. Such as thou art, so once was I, Such as I am, such shalt thou be. I little thought on the hour of death, so long as I enjoyed breath. Great riches here did I possess. I had gold, silver, wardrobes, great treasure, horses, houses, land. But now a poor caitiff I am meaning a sort of miserable wretch deep in the ground. Lo, here I lie. My great beauty is all quite gone. My flesh is wasted to the bone. Something to think about there. It's the fate that awaits us all. Here's Dr. Michael Jones, brilliant historian and broadcaster to talk us all through. He's written a book called the Black Prince. Make sure you go and check it out. Enjoy. Michael, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
- [06:18]
Dr. Michael Jones
Big pleasure, Dan.
- [06:20]
Dan Snow
The Plantagenets are one turbulent family, but actually the Black Prince, when he was born, he was born into a family that was feeling reasonably settled and sort of together without members of each various branches killing each other. I mean, it was a pretty good time to be born as a Plantagenet prince.
- [06:35]
Dr. Michael Jones
Well, as a baby he was in a turbulent time because his birth was actually the catalyst for Edward iii, his father and his mother, Philippa of Ainault. He was the catalyst for Edward sorting things out and creating what would be a very stable family. Because when the prince was born, young Edward was a puppet really, being manipulated by a shadowy regime of his mother, Isabella and her lover, Roger Mortimer.
- [07:06]
Dan Snow
Oh, yes, that's true. So he's still being dominated by his mum.
- [07:10]
Dr. Michael Jones
He's being dominated by his mum and having his own son galvanize the 18 year old Edward III.
- [07:19]
Dan Snow
Okay, so I've actually got my dates wrong. So actually he was born into a bit of dynastic turbulence. So, yes, his mum had invaded England and deposed his dad with her lover by her side. And they were ruling as sort of what, regents?
- [07:32]
Dr. Michael Jones
Unofficially, yes. They were using Edward as a puppet, in effect. And the big question was, would Edward form a group of supporters and take matters into his own hands? My own belief is the birth of his son galvanized him to do just that. And he, within a matter of months, he burst into where Isabella and Mortimer were staying, arrested, Mortimer sent his mom into exile and Mortimer was tried and executed. So within a few months it had all changed for the better.
- [08:08]
Dan Snow
Crikey. So, yeah, becoming a dad brought about a very real change in his circumstances. Huge. That's the beginning of Edward iii. So Edward III goes on to become arguably England's greatest Medieval king rules for a long time. And so the Black Prince. I'll change what I said earlier. He certainly grows up. He experiences his formative years in a stable family environment, strong youngish father at the peak of his powers. England. Pretty peaceful.
- [08:35]
Dr. Michael Jones
Yeah, up to a point. One of the big issues in the early Parthenon is the war with Scotland. The young Prince would have certainly been hearing about that. Philippa of Aeno, his mum, liked to travel and liked to support her husband. And certainly even as a very young child, the Black Prince would have been brought up near the frontier to stay in a nursery, would have heard stories about it all. But this war with Scotland, the French were supporting the Scots. So I think, yes, there was an element of stability, but war was ever present. And it starts with Scotland and moves on to France.
- [09:17]
Dan Snow
Yes, I guess peace in medieval Western Europe is a sort of relative concept.
- [09:21]
Dr. Michael Jones
A relative concept, yes. Well put.
- [09:24]
Dan Snow
And so Edward III doesn't undo the damage done by his father, Edward ii. But how would you define the end of that war with Scotland? Just quickly, before we get into the Black Prince's life, they fix, roughly speaking, a border that is still the border today, interestingly.
- [09:37]
Dr. Michael Jones
Well, that war will still go on after the war with France opens. And fortunately there are two big victories in the same year. I mean, we're jumping ahead, but the thing that knocks Scotland out is that an invading army is defeated and the King of Scotland is captured in 1346. And after that it's quiet. But why I say this is that Edward undertakes a high risk strategy. Some of his advisors were saying exactly what you were saying. Don't even think about France, mate, until you've formed some kind of stability, some kind of peace with Scotland. And Edward does something rather similar to Henry V. He just goes for it. So high risk, high stakes, exciting because it's very proactive, but risky.
- [10:31]
Dan Snow
And that is the start of what we might all recognise, the Hundred Years War. But let's quickly come back to the Black Prince. So he's no stranger to the military camp. He's travelled round a lot with his dad. He must have been impressed with his dad. I mean, there was this sort of martial revival going on. I mean, it felt like England and the English, the Plantagenet family were back after a very, very rough massively.
- [10:50]
Dr. Michael Jones
So he's being trained up for war from an early age, from about the age of seven. He's learning on the job, he's got his own miniature tent, he's got his own weapons. Now, this is seven years Old. When his father then goes abroad, he puts the prince at the head of governing council. Now, he's not expecting the prince to take control, but he's surrounded by proper advisors. But he's expecting at a very young age his son to learn on the job. And very movingly, in 1340, when the king fights a big naval battle and wins at Sluys, young Edward goes up to say goodbye to him, actually boards the ship and says farewell and then sends out a stream of messengers. How's my dad doing? Any news? So I absolutely. This was a very powerful time and I think the young prince was really in awe of his father, quite rightly so.
- [11:53]
Dan Snow
I've always been a big fan of Edward III for many reasons and one of them is he does himself lead naval forces aboard the heaving deck of a ship.
- [12:00]
Dr. Michael Jones
Yeah, love it.
- [12:01]
Dan Snow
Which frankly many of his descendants should have learned from because they were missing in action half the time. Well, Sluice, we could do a whole podcast about that fascinating naval battle that sort of establishes English control. The channel really supremacy the channel, which means it's going to be largely one way traffic during the Hundred Years War that's to come. So from what you're saying, Michael, we hear all sorts of different things about medieval childhood. They're pretty close, are they? They're physically, geographically close, they are emotionally close, these two, father and son.
- [12:30]
Dr. Michael Jones
Well, they're not always physically close. That in the period of childhood and adolescence is frequently away in France. I mean, part of this is notional. When you have letters back home, they're also sort of public announcements. So it's kind of Edward III writes to his son. It's also going to be circulated, so everyone gets in on the act. But nevertheless, the letters from Edward III to his son are moving. I think they show a strong relationship and in a sense those frequent absences do make the heart grow F because it's the aspiration, it's the shared aspiration that's very powerful. And it's being hinted at, or more than hinted at from a very early age. I'm setting this up so that you can join in and together we can really put England back on the European map.
- [13:26]
Dan Snow
And it's interesting that point because unlike so many other sort of heir apparents, the Black Prince is the oldest son. He survives to adulthood. Well, it looks like right until the end there's going to be quite a clear father to oldest son sort of transition, which is quite unusual given the fate of, you know, Henry the young King or many other medieval monarchs.
- [13:44]
Dr. Michael Jones
Yeah, I mean, he's the oldest of five boys. Perhaps, briefly, I should say, at this stage, he's never known as the Black Prince. During his lifetime, he's known as Edward of Woodstock from the palace where he was born. That nickname comes later in the 16th century. But, yes, the power of this is that Edward has a lot of sons. They all behave themselves. And the oldest, Edward of Woodstock, who we'll call a Black Prince, because that's how he's known. He's being groomed for power from the beginning. So there is stability and real closeness and a sense of shared identity. Although without wanting to do a spoiler alert later on, it's going to go a bit wrong. But in the early stages, early to middle stages, it's the dynamic duo.
- [14:35]
Dan Snow
Well, listen, Michael, of course it goes wrong. This is the Plantagenet family we're talking about here. Come on. We all know what we're going to get. Just before the Battle of Sluice, really. Let's just go back slightly. Edward III has embarked on what people roughly call the Hundred Years War. It goes on for longer. 100 years. Very, very briefly, Edward is asserting his right to be King of France after the catastrophe that overtakes France's ruling family. Part of this is saying, England's back, that we'. His son would have been excited by this young Edward. I mean, he'd wanted. This was his throne in the future too.
- [15:07]
Dr. Michael Jones
Totally. It is very exciting. Of course, we need to remember that Edward is making this claim through his mother, who he has pushed into exile, but nevertheless, he's making a claim from her. That claim originally existed from 1328, when the succession dispute in France was opened. The interesting thing is it's left on one side. And the fact that Edward chooses to kind of activate it in 1337 is because he's basically tired of being bossed around by the French, both in Gascony, where he has to render homage, and also French interference in Scotland. So he takes the initiative. And for someone like the Black Prince, that would have been pretty exciting. And absolutely, he's going to be a big part of the story.
- [15:53]
Dan Snow
And the fact that Edward does have such a healthy, lusty young son, in stunning contrast to the. The Capetians in France, that must have given him a spring in his step. In fact, he's got all these sons. It's looking fecund on this side of the Channel.
- [16:05]
Dr. Michael Jones
I like it. And of course, that's how medieval people saw things, that if you were young and lusty from a fecund point of view, you're also up for the fight. So there is a sense of dynamism and optimism here around the whole developing family that Edward III and his wife
- [16:24]
Dan Snow
are creating before the Black Prince hits the battlefield itself. Can you tell me quickly about the creating him, the Duke of Cornwall? People might have heard the Duchy of Cornwall, which remains a sort of royal, a large private estate, as I understand it, of the heir to the throne here in Britain. That's established for the Black Prince, isn't it?
- [16:41]
Dr. Michael Jones
Yeah, he's the first Duke of Cornwall. He's also made Earl of Chester. He's got three sources of income, Cornwall, Cheshire, and then he's made Prince of Wales. The important thing to emphasize here is the Duchy of Cornwall created for him is not just in Cornwall, but also includes lands and residences all over the country. So his main residence at Berkhamstead, his palace at Kennington, as well as a favorite Cornish residence of his Restormwel, they're all part of a big affinity. And Cheshire is also important because it's independent, it's a County Palatine, it has its own parliamentary assembly, and Cheshiremen are notoriously rough and tough, rather like the Gascons, who the Prince will get to know later on. So with Cornwall, with Cheshire, we're seeing areas of revenue, but we're also seeing areas that the Prince will retain from when he starts fighting and exercising independent command in his own right. So, first Duke. Yes, and it's a big deal.
- [17:49]
Dan Snow
Okay, so let's get on the way. In the 1340s, while still a teenager, his father makes him a member of the Order of the Garter, which is the famous chivalric order that exists again to this day. So lots of interesting sort of heraldic things going on with cast Longshadow. When does the Black Prince, when did you think he first experiences the battlefield?
- [18:12]
Dr. Michael Jones
Well, it's a very powerful initiation. It's the Battle of Crecy in 1346. The prince is 16 years old. On the campaign that leads up to the battle, he's given the honor position in the army, commanding the vanguard, and once again he has experienced advisors all around him. But he's leading from the front and at the battle is a double edged compliment. And welcome to tough love Plantagenet style. Because Edward III gives his son the honor position and I'm not quite sure, Dan, how much he told him of the full plan, but he's also making his son and the vanguard a target. If we look at the topography of the battle, Edward's scouted out this site in advance. And he knows that French cavalry is going to come up towards the English army. There is an agricultural ditch, so they'll be funneled into an area where the Prince's division is. They'll see his banner, they'll go for him. And Edward knows that by making his son a target, he has the possibility of getting a huge tactical advantage. But there's also a considerable element of risk. And we know famously that the prince's concussed, probably falls down and then picks himself up. His standard bearer, which is the person holding the standard, is a couple of feet away, is knocked over. The French get the standard. So the French are broken in through the main line into the Prince's bodyguard, and the Prince himself is close to being killed. And a breathless messenger comes to Edward III and says, quick, do something or you'll lose your son. And according to Jean Frassel, the King just says, let him win his spurs. Well, that would send us to therapists for 20 years, wouldn't it? But what I love is, after making this sound bite, the kingdom kind of things. What have I done? And according to another source, he then quietly said, look, send forth you my best knights to support my son. So, tough love, but also a loving father. I think it's a great moment. And the Prince does hang on there. He does survive. And it's an extraordinary initiation into combat that wins him his spurs and wins him fame all across Europe.
- [20:35]
Dan Snow
I never realized that before, Michael. So one of the greatest sayings of English medieval history is, so Edward III did well there. He got this reputation for being the ultimate tough love dad, letting his boy win his first. But also he did quietly send off a hit squad to SWAT teams to make sure that his son did in fact, make it through. How interesting.
- [20:52]
Dr. Michael Jones
Yeah, I love that.
- [20:54]
Dan Snow
Well, there you go. Never trust a medieval king. Crecy, obviously famous as well. The French knights launch wave after wave of assaults. They are destroyed by the English and Welsh longbows. It becomes one of these grossly unequal battles at the Hundred Years. Well, the English liked to remember during the Hundred Years War, there are a few the other way around as well, which we don't remember. And so hugely, not only significant for the Black Prince, but significant for the course of the war up to that point, massively.
- [21:24]
Dr. Michael Jones
So this deployment of the longbow within the battle line, previously the missile bearing troops kind of came out at the beginning, then got out of the way, took years to perfect because the longbow is a deadly weapon, but also the bowman would be lightly armored so if there are a series of cavalry attacks, if you're not coordinating it properly, the French will take a hit, they'll take casualties, but they'll punch through the line when the bowmen are. So it required a lot of practice, but a formation was found that worked and it led to a devastating advantage. I think there are a whole host of factors here. Decisive generalship. Because the French king had the misfortune to see the battle starting before he'd even got to where the army was. There was a huge traffic jam, a gridlock. Don't we know about these roadworks? Well, the French king found out that the Count of Alenon was preparing to start the battle without him and just basically said, okay, go ahead. So we have measured strong leadership on the English side, a lot of tactical awareness, and of course, this new disposition using the power of the longbow. And on the French side, it's chaotic, adrenaline fueled, rushing into action. So it's a huge, devastating defeat for France.
- [22:49]
Dan Snow
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- [26:14]
Dan Snow
The Flower of French Nobility I feel like I've said this many times on the podcast, but there must be lots of flowers of French French nobility because it's always said that they are lying dead on the field of Crecy. The King lucky to escape. The King of Bohemia. The Blind King of Bohemia dead as well.
- [26:28]
Dr. Michael Jones
Yeah, big influence on the Black Prince. And this was because again, we're entering this strange world of chivalry, this parallel universe where the King of Bohemia, our great personal friend of the French king, losing sight in both his eyes, he says to his retinue that he wants to basically die fighting and they tether their horses together, they don't abandon him and say, get on with it, you silly old fool. But they all die together. When the prince not only witnesses the body of the blind king of Bohemia, Jean Luxembourg, but also sees those horses tethered together, he's deeply moved because in a way that is the embodiment to chivalry. And a famous comment that was made to Simon de Montfort when he before the battle of Evesham, he said to one of his companions, look, the bridge is open, you can get out of here, there'll be no dishonor. And the companion simply said, no, Simon, we have drunk from the same cup. And this is the abiding sense of loyalty that chivalry could create. And the Prince decided to emulate. So he adopts the ostrich feather. One sees that on his tomb in Canterbury, which was the King of Bohemians own emblem, as a reminder of that
- [27:45]
Dan Snow
principle and remains the emblem of the Prince of Wales to this day.
- [27:49]
Dr. Michael Jones
To this very day. And that's where it comes from. Pretty splendid stuff.
- [27:53]
Dan Snow
Splendid stuff. The English go on to take Calais as a result of the battle. It's a pretty brutal siege, but a hugely important fortress on the Channel coast.
- [28:02]
Dr. Michael Jones
Yeah. Something I'd like to say because when the Prince is nearly killed at Crecy, that's fairly well known. But what isn't well known, that the Prince very nearly dies during the siege. He contracts a serious illness partway through the siege. He's in a hospital that's patrons of the Count of Flanders and their allies, but he's in a hospital. And his father has left the siege as well because it looks very bad, prognosis looks very bad. But the Prince is nursed back to health and then returns to the siege. And these two events so close together, it's very, very interesting. The Prince himself believed that he was being protected by God in battle, that he had divine protection. This wasn't formulaic. He deeply believed that. And Archbishop John Stratford, the Archbishop of Canterbury, who knew the Prince well in his will the following year, at the time that Order of Garter was being created, you know, he left silver spoons to Sansa. Sansa. The gift he leaves to the Black Prince is a silver resurrection scene. In other words, he knows that the Prince believes that he is destined, protected by God, to step out and do great things.
- [29:16]
Dan Snow
Yes, always. First warning signs is when you start to believe you are an agent of Providence.
- [29:20]
Dr. Michael Jones
Very much so. This is going to be the triumph and tragedy theme.
- [29:25]
Dan Snow
I tell you, if I was A medieval king. I wouldn't let my children anywhere near the siege. The siege trenches, they're clearly just feces filled plague pits. Think about the number of people that died in those miserable sieges.
- [29:38]
Dr. Michael Jones
Well, indeed. And we've got the Black Death about to hit our story as well, so, yes, we do.
- [29:43]
Dan Snow
In fact, we got the Black Death the following year. Hits the story on that. Edward III lost a daughter, I think, didn't he? We say the Black Death was no respecter of status or of surname on the whole. Did the royal family, did senior aristocrats have a bit of a better chance of surviving, access, safer food and cleaner water? And were they doing a bit of social distancing? I mean, how did the Black Prince make it through the horror that the 50% mortality of the Black Death.
- [30:12]
Dr. Michael Jones
Yeah, he lost a sister that he was very close to. She was actually sent off to marry a man we're going to hear more about. This was the son and heir of the King of Castile. She didn't make it because the ship stopped off at Bordeaux. The mayor warned them that a terrible plague was already afflicting the city. It hadn't arrived in England yet. They didn't heed that warning and that was their big mistake. And so the whole contingent died in pretty horrific fashion. When the plague did reach England, there were attempts at social distancing and regulating. More members of the royal family died. The Prince Luster was young brother William. And the plague of course would come back. But the thing I like is that it was in desperate circumstances to sort of keep calm and carry on. There's that Christmas gambling session where the prince, while this plague is raging all around them, and of course they will found the Order of the Garter, both of them together in the middle of the plague, which is extraordinary because the power of this chivalrous order is that it's intercessionary prayer, because a lot of people are going to die and not be able to confess their sins to a priest. So what battlefield soldiers and plague victims have in common is this fear of not just dying horribly, but then being stuck after your death in purgatory, where you're tormented by demons and prodded with great iron tongs. So they take this very seriously. And the creation of the Order of the Gods is a sign of that. But also the Prince lost 104 quid one evening gambling with his dad. So I think there was a kind of live today, die tomorrow aspect as well going on. So it's a mixture of studied nonchalance and Also deep awareness of how terrible this was.
- [32:10]
Dan Snow
So were we saying it's sort of luck they survive, or did they say, right, no one come near me for two weeks?
- [32:18]
Dr. Michael Jones
Well, the Pope practiced a form of social distancing which was quite extraordinary. He had two huge fires lit on either side of the papal throne in Avignon up to a point. I mean, the plague was rampaging everywhere, so. And medical ideas were way behind the reality. So, yes, I think there would be a sense of providence, but of course, the plague would keep coming back and the Prince would lose people close to him, friends, counselors, in the next bout of plague in 1360 and then again in 1369. But yes, an aspect of this kind of reinforcing, the idea of divine providence is being spared from the plague might add to that spiritual identity. Or we could say megalomania. We're being a bit more.
- [33:10]
Dan Snow
Oh, I see. That's a good point. He's had a couple of near misses now. He must be feeling pretty.
- [33:13]
Dr. Michael Jones
Yeah, he has, yeah.
- [33:15]
Dan Snow
Okay.
- [33:16]
Dr. Michael Jones
Worrying.
- [33:17]
Dan Snow
Take me back to France. 100 Years War is famously start, stop. But he is prominent in several more sort of chapters of it, isn't he?
- [33:24]
Dr. Michael Jones
Yeah, he gets his own independent command in 1355. He goes to his dad straight away and special pleading. And interestingly, Edward III hesitates for a while, he thinks, but then agrees. So the Prince gets his own command as lieutenant in Gascony, leads to absolutely brutal raid across the south of France, effectively from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean, burning and pillaging at Carcassonne. He occupies the merchant section of the town, the richest section of the town. They offer him a lot of money not to burn it, but he's out to please his father. And by not getting the money, but by burning it, he's showing the whole of France that the King of France, that's John II and his lieutenant, the counter Armanac, can't protect their own people. If you're fighting to say, well, actually my claims better, you're going around being absolutely brutal because by damaging the agrarian economy, you're impeding the revenue connection. So the war effort is damaged. And you're also saying, look, our claim is better because your guys can't look after you. So it's shrewd stuff, although very, very brutal. And the following year is the big one. There's a big plan to converge on the French King. John ii. Edward III will take an army to Calais. Another major noble, Mahenio Grosvenor, will come in from Brittany and the Black Prince will come up from Gascony. But this great plan goes totally pear shaped. And so the Prince marches to the center of France, to the Loire, and finds that no one else is there.
- [35:05]
Dan Snow
Ah, yes, the old multi prong attack. When you find out you're the only prong. How many times in military history have we seen that? Poor thing?
- [35:12]
Dr. Michael Jones
You're so right. Not good. And the interesting thing is that Edward III has decided he's not going to go to Calais, but that information has not reached his son. Henry of Grossemont, who is in Brittany, can't get across to Loire, there's bad flooding. And sadly the French, who've been very apathetic, they're not very keen on John ii who's been dealing with insurrection in Normandy. But suddenly the thought of wiping out Prince galvanizes everybody and there's a total change of mood and a big army is gathered with the sole purpose of crushing the Black Prince. So it's getting worse and worse. And just outside Poitiers in September 1356, I should say at this stage that the Prince's army, we often describe it as an English army, it's Anglo, Gascon and the Gascons, a very important part
- [36:04]
Dan Snow
of his army and Gascony is southwest France.
- [36:07]
Dr. Michael Jones
Yes, it's southwest France and they're tough, they're independently minded and they like the Prince. So he's got a strong army, but it's badly outnumbered. And famously, because the Prince gets the tactics right, the French decide to use cavalry on the flanks but fight on foot. They are fine tuning their approach, but the first part of the battle goes very well. But the army, Prince's army is absolutely knackered. And then they see this whole new division appearing of fresh troops and someone a bit like cousin Westmoreland famously supposed to have said, oh my God, more troops. Someone does say the same thing. It's all looking very bad. But the Prince, it's an extraordinary moment. Calm in the eye of the storm, he prays out loud and suddenly there's a flash of inspiration. They devise a totally crazy, spontaneous plan where they send a small force of mounted troops round to attack from the rear and then the whole army. Now, normally the English dismount and the French attack them with cavalry. And this time the French are coming up on foot and the order is given for the entire army, including Bowman, to mount up and charge straight to the French King. It's absolutely crazy. It's basically putting your entire fortune on one spin of the wheel of Vegas. But I think the mood of the army suddenly People get that this is going to be the last chance saloon and everyone is up for it. So this small force comes in at the rear and then the cavalry attack hits the French line with such force that John ii, the King of France and his bodyguard are not clean out of the battle line into an adjacent meadow. And even then the English adrenaline fueled as they are outnumbered by about 10 to 1. But the French are in the state of shock. So it's the most extraordinary victory. And I don't think, much as military historians love studying weapons and tactical analysis and this, that and the other, I think this battle is outside the comfort zone, really. And of course, once again, it fuels this idea from the Prince that divine protection wins in the battle.
- [38:20]
Dan Snow
It is an astonishing underdog victory. He's in the heart of it.
- [38:24]
Dr. Michael Jones
Yeah. And we capture the French king as well. That's the big one.
- [38:28]
Dan Snow
Well, indeed. King John, he was taken to London, wasn't he? I always thought he actually seemed to prefer being in London to Paris. He's always won my sympathies for that reason.
- [38:36]
Dr. Michael Jones
Well, yeah, he doesn't get on very well with his own ability. And when he's in London, he can be the kind of martyred hero with everyone actually saying he wasn't so bad.
- [38:46]
Dan Snow
Yeah, just he's got his feet up in London. But we should say the Black Prince is absolutely at the heart. He's fighting in the front line, he's leading by example. And I. I mean, he's the picture of a martial medieval prince. And we talked about his massive raid, burning, destroying crops, torching things, brutality, sexual assault. Now we're talking about this battle. Is he any different from his forebears, you know, from his different cousins several times removed, Richard the Lionheart or Henry II or his father, Edward iii? Is there something. I mean, I remember when my dad was reading me kind of outdated 19th century history books, the Black Prince was sort of, seemed to occupy quite a special place in that Victorian historical imagination. Was he better or different, more pious? How should we kind of evaluate him now that he's in his 20s, as a warrior, as a leader, as a man?
- [39:37]
Dr. Michael Jones
Yeah, good question. I think in some respects he's very much a man and a warrior of his times and his brutal raids. It's how his father was conducting fighting both with the Scots and also in the early stages of the Hundred Years War. People were pious in the Middle Ages, but the Black Prince's piety was very deep. And what tends to get lost, I think the first thing that tends to get Lost is that he had a very mischievous sense of humor. He was very charismatic and very winning. And one can find this in some chronicle sources, particularly more obscure French chronicle sources, how mischievously humorous he was. And that is a very engaging quality. And I'll give you one example. So when he's leading this big expedition, his first independent command, and the Welshmen are coming in, the Cheshiremen mercenaries are joining from all over Europe. And the prince likes his bling, he likes to show off strutted stuff. And some of the soldiers are saying, who's this fop? They're sort of wondering about it. And the prince gets to hear about this and he draws his entire army up and then a great ceremony, knights, his personal tailor, and so he can take the piss out of him himself and the army love it. He totally turns it around by doing that. And this is where he is very winning. He understands chivalry, but at the same time, this mischievous humor really is an icebreaker and forges some very powerful loyalties. So he's a real personality, is he worse?
- [41:13]
Dan Snow
Can we say that he was sort of more violent and cruel? He's obviously got a cheeky side. But in the chevaucher, is there something particularly ferocious about them or is it just pretty standard fare for the time?
- [41:25]
Dr. Michael Jones
Well, the biggest blot on his escutcheon, if I can use that phrase, is we're going to get onto later on the sack of Limoges in 1370. And I argue very strongly in my book, my biography of the Black Prince, that that really didn't happen. And as that particular episode is reviewed, it back projects onto the whole of his career, which. Which I think comes across in a much more favorable light.
- [41:52]
Dan Snow
You listen to Dan Snow's history. Don't go anywhere. There's more to come.
- [42:01]
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- [42:21]
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- [43:29]
Dan Snow
Just quickly, can I ask another question that it's often said that England had never any chance in 100 years war. It's complete bonkers idea that England could conquer France, much richer and more populous. But if you'd been there at the end of the Battle of Poitiers, King John of France is a captive of the English. The French are at each other's throats. Do you think Edward III thought at that point, I think I might just pull this off? Or was it always, we're just going to go on raiding and attacking France? I don't actually genuinely think I'm going to be crowned in Arrhen's Cathedral. I'm not going to be given the holy ointment of Clovis or whatever it is. I mean, where are we now, do you think, after this battle?
- [44:05]
Dr. Michael Jones
Well, there's another big campaign in 1359-60, and that is very much in Edward's mind. He's thinking about that because they do head to Reims. What happens is a compromise where by the peace treaty of Bretini in 1360, and this is very interesting, Edward III renounces his claim in return for getting Aquitaine. That's a very enlarged Gascony in full sovereignty. So that's the best. We won't do better than in the 14th century. So that is a win. And the prince becomes outright ruler of Aquitaine. He doesn't have to bend the knee and do homage. And that was extraordinary. But the problem was that it wouldn't last. But while it did last, it looked very good indeed. Things went wrong when we intervened in Spain to support Pedro the Cruel, who was, as his name suggests, a total psychopath. And the prince was very reluctant to do this and was kind of pushed into it by his father. Edward III saw the strategic advantage of allying with Castile. The prince was aware, however, that this guy he was helping had been excommunicated twice, probably murdered his wife, murdered his half brother during a banquet, and then Left a corpse on the floor. And his last act before he showed up at Bordeaux to plead for help from the prince was to stab to death the Archbishop of Santiago de Compostela, one of the sacred pilgrimage sites, on consecrated ground. So I don't think the prince was very excited. And although he wins this Battle of Mejera, it all goes wrong because the counterclaimant escapes, gets back on the throne, and now Castile is an enemy and the French become confident enough to resume the war. So I think for a brief period, it was a win in that through military prowess, we got a very advantageous settlement. It's just we weren't able to keep it.
- [46:12]
Dan Snow
Yeah, how interesting. So the Black Prince is ruling in southwest France, almost in his own right, and he crossed the Pyrenees and expends all that blood and treasure like Napoleon Bonaparte. He had his own Spanish ulcer as well.
- [46:23]
Dr. Michael Jones
Yep, absolutely.
- [46:25]
Dan Snow
And now we've got the French emboldened by that weakness and the Hundred Years War effectively restarts.
- [46:31]
Dr. Michael Jones
Yes. And the prince, I argue, is not supported fully by his father. His father is more concerned about Calais and the north of France. But crucially, the prince also becomes ill, not, I believe, through dysentery, although some of the soldiers in his army succumb to dysentery in Spain. But by the autumn of 1368, the prince becomes ill. It's a long illness. My own belief is that it's rectal cancer. So he has periods of extreme weakness where he's stretch a bound and then he makes a partial recovery. It's very interesting that the behavior of some Gascon nobles is almost like a kind of health check, because when the prince is very ill, they're saying to the Valois, King Charles V, actually, I think I'll join you, maybe pay me a bit of money. Then they hear the prince is recovering and they say, actually, just hold on a moment. So it's so much still his personality, but he is waning in terms of health and the military position. Charles V has built up a good financial reserve, something the Prince was not very good at, as you said, he spent a lot of money going over to Spain and coming back again. The position starts hemorrhaging and there are a lot of defections. And that will get us on to Limoges also, by the third, is going
- [47:53]
Dan Snow
to knock on a bit in the north, isn't he? He has a reasonably long decline, sadly.
- [47:58]
Dr. Michael Jones
Yes, we've got a decline of king for one reason, and a decline of his son also.
- [48:05]
Dan Snow
Such an important reminder of the centrality in this period of leadership, of a vital, vigorous leadership, totally.
- [48:12]
Dr. Michael Jones
And that's waning.
- [48:15]
Dan Snow
Oh dear, oh, dear. Right, so let's get to Limoges. Tell me what leads up to this famous siege?
- [48:20]
Dr. Michael Jones
Well, Limoges is a city that has been loyal to the Prince. And then Jean Frass, our great Source for the 14th century phase of the Hundred Years War, goes to town. And Frassa's agenda is that he's met the prince. And we should add at this point that he's also met the Prince's very beautiful wife, Joan of Cancer. The Prince marries for love, and so by 1360, he's not only a war hero, but is then seeing the beautiful Joan formally married the following year. And they're a power couple. They have a magnificent court. But Frassar starts building up this picture. Then, as a fallen hero, the Prince gets corrupted by his own incredible reputation. And Limoges is where Frosop starts really nailing this in. So according to Frosa, the Prince is waning in strength and furious that this town has defected, so decides to make an example of them. And there's a short siege and then a massacre of several thousand innocent French civilians is a terrible example. And if we buy that as true, it is very much a flaw. I mean, you can justify it, you can say that if you break your oath, you are exempted from the normal laws of war. But it's a nasty incident. But I argue very strongly it didn't happen like that at all. Because going back to what I've been saying about divine protection, the Prince, after the Spanish expedition, thought, but why am I ill? Why is the war going wrong? Because I have sinned. We have sinned in supporting this murderous psychopath, Pedro the Cruel. And now we've lost God's favor. So everything is about trying to win that favor back. And the Prince actually negotiates for clemency to be shown towards towns or cities that through that they aren't being backed militarily. They think of going over to the French, but I argue that it's a slur, propaganda slur. And I think the one point I would make here is that when the Prince does die in 1376, a year before his father, the French sold a solemn memorial mass for him, they hold a requie en masse. It's never done for anyone else on the English side. And Valois chronicler says, you may think this is very strange, that we're doing this for a mortal enemy, but he represented something far greater. The aspiration, the model of knighthood that we all aspire to? Well, if he'd just murdered thousands of innocent civilians, I don't think that was going to happen. So I've argued very strongly that we need to see the Prince in a different light.
- [51:08]
Dan Snow
So just quickly on Limoges. The town surrenders to the French, he retakes it, his miners demolish a large piece of wall and the town is then stormed. Are we arguing that that's unfortunately what happens when towns are stormed? And it wasn't a case of particular exemplary violence that he's been charged with in the past?
- [51:28]
Dr. Michael Jones
Well, I use quite a lot of new documentary material. So Limoges was divided up into two parts. The Cite, which was a poorer part, controlled by the bishop, and the Chateau, which was the richer merchant quarters. The Chateau part had always stared loyal to the prince. The Cite had been told by the bishop, who was a slippery character, the Prince has actually died. And when the prince showed up, although his army was actually being commanded by his brother, John of Gaunt, they opened the gates, they did a deal with the English and raised the banner as the signal and then opened the gates. There was a mining attack to divert the French garrison and then the. The gates were open. And what actually happened, I've reconstructed, is that it was the French that massacred the people who had done that. So it was totally different. And the commander had performed extremely well, according to all the chronicles, was dismissed by Charles V, all his lands were taken away from him and he died in poverty. So my argument and my perception of that siege is very different.
- [52:38]
Dan Snow
Well, listen, I'm here for blaming the French for Le mo, so you've convinced me.
- [52:43]
Dr. Michael Jones
Thank you so much.
- [52:44]
Dan Snow
Chapter and verse.
- [52:45]
Dr. Michael Jones
That's what I want to hear. Dan.
- [52:48]
Dan Snow
Although such an interesting period, the 1370s, isn't it? Because, well, we have. The siege is 1370. Then we get the very unusual, folks. We have an English naval defeat off La Rochelle.
- [53:00]
Dr. Michael Jones
Catastrophic. Yeah.
- [53:03]
Dan Snow
Which makes communications between England at Aquitaine harder. And then we have this. The Black Prince's oldest son dies. He's dying, his father is dying, all at the same time, all in this four or five year period. It's just grim.
- [53:17]
Dr. Michael Jones
I know. And often people don't realize this. He had two sons. And the older Edward of Angouleme dies in 1370. I suspect of plague as well, of course, leaving the younger one, Richard of Bordeaux, who. Who will become a very unsuccessful king. Richard ii, absolute chump. Absolutely. But yes, everyone is waning. This terrible naval defeat is because we backed the wrong side in the Castilian civil war. So Enrique, who Chucks Pedro, the psychopathic ruler off the throne. He is at our throats with a vengeance. And so French and Castilian fleet hammers us outside La Rochelle. The prince wants to join, but is too sick. The king wants to join, but isn't up for it. It's all going terribly wrong, Dan.
- [54:10]
Dan Snow
Well, this Spanish intervention is just poisons the entire.
- [54:14]
Dr. Michael Jones
Poisons it totally crazy.
- [54:17]
Dan Snow
So the young prince, Edward III's grandson, Edward the Black Prince's son, dies in 1370, and then the Black Prince returns to England in 1371. And is he coming back to die? I mean, is this.
- [54:31]
Dr. Michael Jones
Well, the thing is, again, he has these periods where he's terribly ill and everyone's expecting him to die. And then he rallies and so it goes on. But he joins the lay fraternity connected to St. Albans, where the abbot of St. Albans had also suffered serious illness and recurrent illness. But he's almost kind of on standby to die, but hangs on in there. And he manages to last right through to the time of the good parliament in 1376. And then he finally fades. And there's tension at this stage between father and son because his father had kept a court appeal court open in Westminster, that it undermined the prince in Aquitaine. And the prince had become very fed up with this to the extent that when his father tried to form an alliance with another one of these characters, you've got Pedro the Cruel, total psychopath, and Charles the Bad, who's nearly as bad as Pedro the Cruel. And the prince is very unhappy that he had to associate with either of them. And he basically says to his father, I'm not going to authenticate this agreement. He had to authenticate it because some of the lands involved were his. And he actually tells his father, I'm tired of doing things that compromise my honor. So I think it was rather a frost, the period between father and son. Of course, Edward III was running after this attractive young, originally a lady in waiting of his wife, Alice Perez, and making rather an idiot of himself. And the prince genuinely believed that Alice Perez had put him under a spell. Witchcraft was the reason his father had just changed for the worse. But whatever one makes of that, it's all gone terribly wrong right at the end. Very movingly, Edward III says, look, the Black Prince was at his palace of Kennington. He says, come to Westminster so I can nurse you personally. Prince agrees, there's a reconciliation. And crucially, the king pays off Prince's debts, which was rather important because the prince was always running short of money. But right at the end they make up, which I like because it went wrong, but it was fundamentally a very positive relationship. But of course, the king. King himself would die a year later, leaving the young Richard II to stumble around, just alienating everybody, unfortunately. Yes.
- [56:59]
Dan Snow
Yeah. The military genes all went through John of Gaunt to that Henry iv, didn't they?
- [57:03]
Dr. Michael Jones
I think so.
- [57:04]
Dan Snow
Does he matter? Is it one of those ones that it would have mattered if he'd lived? And like Henry V, if he'd lived, then the outcome of the hundred might have been different, but as it was. Does he leave an imprint on subsequent history?
- [57:15]
Dr. Michael Jones
Yeah, a huge imprint. Firstly, if he had retained his health, got his spending a bit more under control, I think he'd have made a very good king. But the crucial thing, in a way, is that by dying when he did and when you go to his tomb, I think this is what's so fascinating. Edward III's memorial in Westminster Abbey shows the king from a death mask. So you can see the paralysis after the stroke of 1370. And he's looking his age. But when you pay tribute to the Black Prince, although he has a memento mori that says, basically, watch out what I have become, you will also suffer the same fate. But of course, being the Black Prince, he's also had himself set out, and this was made very clear in his will, in his prime. So what you see is a Prince of about 1362, having just married the extremely attractive, attractive Joan of Kent and at the summit of his power. So we have, up to a point, justifiably, an idealized version. And that idealized version puts him above all the stuff that went wrong. And we can always look up to him and say, well, that was a bit special. And I would argue, and I have argued in my book, that there was enough truth in that to pull him out of his time and making him an exemplar of something in our history that we can be rightly proud of.
- [58:40]
Dan Snow
That's a place to end. Thank you very much. Dr. Michael Jones. Tell everyone what the book is called.
- [58:44]
Dr. Michael Jones
Yep. So the book's called the Black Prince. A big pleasure to write it.
- [58:49]
Dan Snow
Well, it was an enormous pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thank you for joining.
- [58:53]
Dr. Michael Jones
Yeah, thank you very much, Dan. It's been great spending time with you.
- [59:01]
Dan Snow
Well, folks, thank you very much for listening. The Black Prince remains, for reasons we just heard, one of the most compelling figures of medieval England. A warrior, a commander of great charisma, a man who fought against the odds and triumph, a sort of prince who promised a golden age, but that never quite came to pass. As you've just heard, he died in 1376. He was 45 years old. So really in the absolute prime of life, it must be said, as Father died died a year later and was succeeded by Richard The Black Prince's 10 year old son. And yet another good old fashioned medieval era of turbulence and contested crowns was about to begin. And you can hear all about that on a podcast I did with Helen Caster that went out at the end of October. So please check that out if you want to find out the next chapter of the story. As I said at the start, the Black Prince's tomb lies in Canterbury Cathedral. You can go and see it. That armored effigy is one of the finest, most extraordinary objects I think from the 14th century that we've still got. And it's a symbol of an England that stood for a very brief moment, I think at the height of its medieval power. Thank you so much for listening folks. If you've enjoyed this episode, make sure you like and subscribe of course. And please send your new episode ideas to the email in the show notes. Goodbye for now.
- [60:17]
Dr. Michael Jones
Foreign.
- [60:24]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
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- [60:46]
Dan Snow
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