The Hunt for Pablo Escobar

Summary

Dan Snow's History Hit: Episode Summary – "The Hunt for Pablo Escobar"

In this gripping episode of Dan Snow's History Hit titled "The Hunt for Pablo Escobar," host Dan Snow delves into the tumultuous era of the early 1990s in Colombia, exploring the rise and fall of one of history's most notorious drug lords. Through in-depth discussions with former DEA agents Steve Murphy and Javier Peña, the episode uncovers the complexities of the manhunt that ultimately led to Pablo Escobar's demise.

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Introduction: Setting the Scene [01:19]

Dan Snow opens the episode by presenting a haunting photograph from December 2, 1993, depicting Pablo Escobar’s lifeless body in Medellín, Colombia. He describes Medellín as the "murder capital of the world" during the early '90s, with Escobar's reign responsible for thousands of deaths.

Dan Snow [01:19]: "Medellin was the murder capital of the world in the early 1990s. Hundreds of people could die in a weekend, and sadly, it didn't even make the headlines anymore."

Snow introduces his guests, Steve Murphy and Javier Peña, the real-life DEA agents whose lives inspired the popular Netflix series Narcos. Their firsthand accounts provide an authentic glimpse into the relentless pursuit of Escobar.

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Pablo Escobar: The Rise of a Drug Lord [03:19]

Steve Murphy sets the stage by describing Escobar's dominance in the global cocaine trade and his pioneering use of terrorism to enforce his rule.

Javier Peña [04:32]: "Pablo Escobar was probably the biggest, baddest trafficker in the world during the height of his Medellin cartel empire. He was responsible for 80% of the cocaine that was going to the world."

Escobar's combination of ruthless violence and strategic business practices allowed him to wield immense power, making him a formidable adversary for law enforcement.

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Establishing Power in Colombia [04:24]

The agents discuss how Escobar built his empire, highlighting his lack of remorse and willingness to eliminate anyone who stood in his way.

Javier Peña [04:32]: "He had no remorse, no guilt feelings whatsoever. He started out as a petty criminal, but then he got involved in a small drug deal. He realized how much money was available there, and so he killed the drug dealer so he could take over his position."

Escobar’s dominance was not just through fear but also through his business acumen, albeit enforced by intimidation and violence.

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Drug Trafficking Methods [05:15]

The conversation shifts to the logistical aspects of Escobar's operations, detailing the ingenious and often blatant methods used to transport cocaine from Colombia to the United States.

Javier Peña [05:17]: "Coming through Mexico, coming to the United States, the Caribbean countries. Boats, airplanes, human smugglers... packing it inside fruits, oranges, fish."

Murphy recounts a memorable interception where 800 kilos of cocaine were openly stored in an airplane's cargo area, highlighting the rampant corruption that facilitated such operations.

Steve Murphy [05:17]: "The cops had called me, and it was just boxes. It was 800 kilos of cocaine... it wasn't hidden."

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Volunteering for the Mission [06:37]

Murphy and Peña explain how they were assigned to the Colombia mission, emphasizing the perilous nature of their work.

Steve Murphy [06:37]: "We were living in Bogota, working with Colombian National Police... it was strictly voluntary."

The agents reflect on the dangers they faced, including car bombings and the constant threat of assassination, which underscored the volatile environment in Colombia at the time.

Javier Peña [07:20]: "Colombia was very dangerous. Those car bombs were the most dangerous because you never knew where Pablo was going to place them."

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La Catedral: Escobar's Luxurious Prison [13:09]

A pivotal moment in Escobar's saga was his self-imposed imprisonment in La Catedral, a prison he constructed himself, replete with luxurious amenities.

Javier Peña [13:17]: "He had an apartment with refrigerator freezers, the biggest TVs at that time... no cell, no bars. It was a fancy penthouse."

This extravagance baffled law enforcement and became a symbol of Escobar's audacious control over both his cartel and the Colombian government.

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Escobar's Escape and the Renewed Pursuit [14:39]

Escobar's decision to escape La Catedral marked a turning point, reigniting the manhunt with even greater intensity.

Javier Peña [14:45]: "He went on the run because the government was going to move him to a real jail cell... he orchestrated bloodbaths in Medellín."

The agents highlight the challenges they faced during this phase, including internal organizational issues and the emergence of rival groups like Los Pepes, which further complicated the hunt.

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The Final Days: December 2, 1993 [20:30]

The episode meticulously recounts the events leading up to Escobar's death. Murphy and Peña describe a period of frustration with scarce leads, only to regain focus after personal losses in their police network.

Steve Murphy [21:17]: "We knew we were really close."

Using advanced radio interception techniques developed by Colonel Ugo Martinez, the agents were able to track Escobar's communications, ultimately pinpointing his location. The final confrontation unfolded in a row house, where Escobar engaged in a deadly shootout before being killed by Colombian authorities.

Javier Peña [25:21]: "It was the end of a very violent era in Colombia carried out by Pablo Escobar. It needed to happen."

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Aftermath and Reflections [26:01]

In the wake of Escobar's death, the agents reflect on the temporary improvement in Colombia, which was soon overshadowed by the rise of the Cali Cartel and subsequent drug organizations.

Javier Peña [26:06]: "The Cali cartel took over... it was drug trafficking again."

Despite the ongoing struggles, Murphy and Peña emphasize the necessity of their mission, underscoring the human cost of the drug war.

Javier Peña [26:56]: "There are innocent people being killed. You can't turn a blind eye to this."

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Personal Sacrifices and Optimism [29:12]

The episode concludes with a heartfelt discussion on the personal toll of their work and their enduring hope for humanity.

Javier Peña [29:22]: "The majority of us are all good people. It's a small little percent that is not."

They express pride in their contributions to history and maintain an optimistic view of human nature, despite the atrocities they witnessed.

Javier Peña [30:23]: "You got to have hope. The golden rule is do unto others as you'd have them do unto you."

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Legacy and Continuing Impact

Dan Snow's History Hit paints a vivid picture of the relentless pursuit of Pablo Escobar, highlighting the bravery and dedication of agents like Steve Murphy and Javier Peña. Their accounts not only shed light on the operational challenges and strategic maneuvers involved in the manhunt but also underscore the profound personal sacrifices made in the fight against one of history's most infamous criminals. The episode serves as a testament to the complexities of the war on drugs and the enduring impact of these historical events on present-day Colombia.

For listeners seeking to delve deeper into these historical narratives, additional insights and engaging stories await in future episodes of Dan Snow's History Hit.

Transcript

[Dan Snow]

Hi, I'm Dan Snow and if you.

[Steve Murphy]

Would like Dan Snow's History Hit ad.

[Dan Snow]

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[Steve Murphy]

Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.

[Acast]

Acast Powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Javier Pena]

This.

[Unknown]

Season on the Dream. Supplies are being provided by nurses who run out in the middle of the night and purchase diapers, but the hospital is still charging as if they still have these items. We are digging into every topic we've ever wanted to cover on this show. It's a spinning plate analogy. The second that you stop spinning those plates, that crashes. So you can never stop working. The Dream Season 4 comes at you weekly. Starting Monday, January 20th.

[Acast]

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com hey everyone.

[Dan Snow]

Welcome to Dan Snow's history. I'm looking at a photograph now taken on December 2nd, 1993. It's taken in the beautiful city of Medellin in Colombia. It's not a beautiful photo. It's a photo of men posing above the corpse of a man who's just been shot dead. Medellin was the murder capital of the world in the early 1990s. Hundreds of people could die in a weekend, and sadly, it didn't even make the headlines anymore. And many of their deaths were the responsibility of the man whose corpse I'm looking at in this photograph. That's the body of Pablo Escobar, probably the wealthiest criminal who's ever lived, the man who turned his hometown into an endless, seething bloodbath of drug war. He was thought to be responsible for thousands of deaths directly, and of course, countless others indirectly. One of the men crouching over Pablo Escobar's body is joining me on today's podcast. Steve Murphy was a DEA agent assigned to Bogota in the 1980s and 90s. He's joining with his partner, Javier Pena, or JP. He was part of the operation to hunt down Pablo Escobar, but he flew out of the country the day before the final raid and flew back in that same night. These two men were key characters. They were heroes of the Netflix smash it narcos. So it's great that we're talking to the real thing. So here to talk me through the hunt for Pablo Escobar is Steve Murphy and Javier pina. Enjoy.

[Unknown]

T minus 10 atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima.

[Javier Pena]

God save The King. No black white unity till there is first some black unity.

[Unknown]

Never to go to war with one another again. And lift off. And the shuttle has cleared the tower.

[Steve Murphy]

Gentlemen, thank you very much for coming on the podcast. This is very exciting. Who was Pablo Escobar when he was at the height of his powers? What was he doing? And who was he?

[Javier Pena]

Pablo Escobar was probably the biggest, baddest trafficker in the world during the height of his Medellin cartel empire. I mean, Pablo was responsible for 80% of the cocaine that was going to the world. 80%. Plus, he is the first trafficker who employed terrorism. We never knew what terrorism was in the narco world. And Pablo Escobar introduced it. You know, used the car bombs to kill as many Colombians as he could. Downed a commercial airline, The Avianca airline, 1989, killed the next president of Colombia, Luis Carlos Galanzo. Pablo Escobar was the first trafficker to employ narco terrorism to send his cocaine to the world.

[Steve Murphy]

And how did he establish himself within Colombia? Just, was he more brutal, the next guy? Was he a better businessman than the next guy?

[Unknown]

Well, you know, we hate to give this guy credit for anything, to be quite honest. But he did have a charismatic personality. But I think his strongest trait was he had no remorse, no guilt feelings whatsoever. So he started out as a petty criminal, but then he got involved in a small drug deal. He realized how much money was available there, and so he killed the drug dealer so he could take over his position. People like to say, well, he was such a successful businessman, if he'd gone into a legal business, you know, he would have been extremely successful there as well. Well, his business plan is, I tell you to do something, Dan, and if you don't do it, I kill you. You know, that just doesn't work in legal business world. Right?

[Steve Murphy]

And how are they getting their drugs through? Was the US the biggest market? How are they getting them through to.

[Dan Snow]

The US A lot of it was.

[Javier Pena]

Coming through Mexico, coming to the United States, the Caribbean countries. I mean, he employed methods via boats, via airplanes, human smugglers. I mean, you know, people ingesting. They would pack it inside, fruits inside, oranges inside, fish inside. I mean, you know, the imagination was the limit, basically, whatever it took. I remember the first load I saw when I arrived in Columbia. It was on an American airline coming to Miami. And I remember I went out to the airport. The cops had called me, and it was just boxes. It was 800 kilos of cocaine in the. In the cargo area, area of the airplane, but it wasn't hidden. It was just as. You'd open the box and it was just part of the cargo. I mean, that. As simple as that. So, obviously, the corruption at the airport was there. People were paid off to look the other way. I think also, like I said, a lot of the airplane transportations, you know, the private airplanes, they buy the airplanes. And, I mean, Steve saw them in the, what, Bahamas, Steve. Right. Those downed airplanes where they would crash them.

[Unknown]

Yep. And they would just. They'd fly in hundreds of kilos of cocaine, and then they would just leave the aircraft in the water. And believe it or not, they're still there today.

[Steve Murphy]

You guys were sent to Columbia working for the dea. Was that volunteering, or did you guys just have to do what you were told?

[Unknown]

Well, maybe we made our bosses mad. They sent us. I don't know. But no, it was strictly voluntary. But I think what's going to lead into here is, did we volunteer to go work against Pablo Escobar? You don't know what cases you're going to be assigned or what operations you're going to work on. So when I got there, Javier was already working with his other partner, Gary Sheridan. Then Gary got promoted and moved to Barranquilla. And that's how Javier and I became partners in 1991. And, you know, here we are in 2023, and we're still partners.

[Steve Murphy]

Was it incredibly dangerous, you know what.

[Javier Pena]

Colombia, at that time? Yes, it was very dangerous. And, you know, I mentioned those infamous car bombs that to me was the most dangerous, because you never knew where Pablo Escobar was going to place them. I mean, he was placing them at restaurants, shopping centers, bookstores. We saw one where kids and parents were buying their school supplies to go back to school. So if you were at the wrong place at the wrong time, you were going to be part of that car bomb. And it's an eerie feeling because, for example, if you go out to dinner with your family and you're sitting in a little cafe, then right next door, car. I mean, a bomb. And it could be a bomb that they placed at a restaurant. And if you talk to any Colombian that grew up during this era, they're going to remember someone, a friend, a relative, or someone who was killed in this car. Bombs.

[Steve Murphy]

Why did you go, gents, why not stay in a nice, cushy assignment in Orlando, Florida, where everyone else goes for a vacation? You can just sit there having a great time.

[Unknown]

You know, at that time I was stationed in Miami in the late 1980s. And it was very, very exciting, I have to say. It was very dangerous. I had. My partner was shot in 1989, and we got in a shootout in Hialeah, and our informant was killed. But my wife and I, and she's a registered nurse, she's retired now, but, you know, she loved the blood and guts associated with the medical field. You know, the trauma centers, the ERs, the ICUs and things like that. She came to me one day, she said, you know, this has been very exciting, living, working in Miami. What's the next most exciting thing we can do? And I said, well, you know, I'm working a case with the DEA office in Barranquilla. We could go to Columbia. And she looked at me like I had three eyes, you know, And I know my wife, and if you tell her to do something, it's not going to happen. But I just let her think about it. And about three weeks later, she said, were you serious? And I said, yeah, I'd love to go to Columbia. And she said, well, hey, if we're going to do it, let's do it while we're young. I joke around and say, you know, they didn't hire us because we were real smart. You know, we were willing to take risks like this. But it's the excitement and the adrenaline rush. It's the idea that I'd been a local cop for 12 years before I joined DEA. And you're arresting street dealers and people like that, but now you've got an opportunity to go for the biggest people in the world. I mean, the people who are actually manufacturing the cocaine. So not knowing that I was going to get to work on the Escobar case, just kind of hope you will. Honestly, it was for the excitement and the adrenaline rush that goes with it.

[Javier Pena]

As for me, Dan, I was in Austin, Texas at the time, and I was working lower class type traffickers. You know, the 1 pound, 1 kilo, couple of ounces. A lot of surveillances and a lot of Mexican traffickers coming in with a heroin. And Austin was the capital for the methamphetamine boom. A lot of methamphetamine labs. But it was lower class type traffickers. And like Steve said, I want to see what the real, like, you know, I'm a baseball fan, major league traffickers were all about. So I applied and like Steve said, I applied to go to Mexico. And my boss comes in and says, javier, did you apply for Columbia? Sent to applied for Mexico. He says, well, you've been selected for Colombia. He says, you Want to fight it? So I did. I said, nah, let me just go see the map where Colombia is, you know, And I ended up in Colombia. That was all by mistake. And like Steve mentioned, you know, we were. I was assigned the case. I didn't go in there. Says, I want to go after Pablo Escobar. I really did not know who Pablo Escobar was at this time.

[Steve Murphy]

In 1991, Pablo Escobar cut a weird deal with the government, didn't he? Kind of handed himself in, built his own prison, which was actually like a five star hotel. Tell me about that strange phase.

[Unknown]

We call it the deal of a lifetime. The attorney General down there, Gustavo de Grief, created this program he called a self surrender program. Whereas criminals could come in, plead guilty to one felony of their choosing, and in exchange, they would be absolved of every other crime they committed in their entire lives, included multiple murders. So that's why we call it this, the deal of a lifetime. So Pablo goes in and pleads guilty to one unknowingly participating in the transportation of a couple hundred kilos of cocaine. So he pleads guilty to that. But before he did, he told him, he said, you know, I got some conditions that go along with the surrender. And so the Attorney General said, okay, what is it? And he said, well, you know what? I'm going to build a special prison that I know is secure because I have a lot of enemies. The Cali cartel is trying to kill me, all this stuff, but you know what? I'm going to pay for it myself so the taxpayers of Columbia don't have to bear that financial burden. Attorney General said, okay. And he said, then Pablo said, well, listen, I'm going to hire my own protective force. I will pay for the guards there because again, I don't want the citizens of Columbia to have to bear that financial burden. Government said, okay. He said, well, now listen, my fellow inmates, I'm going to hand pick them all because they got to be people that are loyal to me, that I don't have to worry about killing me in my sleep. So There was only 14 prisoners in this prison, counting Pablo. And the government said, okay. He said, listen, by the way, those good guys, you know, the Colombian police, the military and the gringos, they're not allowed to come within a couple miles of the perimeter of the prison because I don't want them trying to come in here and kidnap me or attack me or kill me in my sleep and that type of thing. And the government said, okay. Then the sentence was five years. That's all he had to do, which he would have gotten out sooner than that. And you know what? All the assets, the estimated $30 billion that he was worth, he got to keep all his assets after the five years. It's just. It's not even a deal of a lifetime. It's the biggest joke in law enforcement history.

[Steve Murphy]

So he's in his own prison. What was the nickname of the prison?

[Javier Pena]

La Catedral, the Cathedral.

[Steve Murphy]

It had a football pitch, had a jacuzzi. Did it have a giant doll's house?

[Javier Pena]

Yeah, he had a. For his kids that come in and visit him. Yeah, it was. It had running water. I mean, it was just a joke. And you know what? When he escaped from the prison, because we were there the next day, Steve and I, we found photos of the Colombian national team playing soccer with Pablo Escobar. They used to have tournaments. I mean, a lot of famous Colombian soccer players went and visited him at the prison. There was no cell, there was no bars. He had an apartment, living in an apartment with refrigerator freezers, the biggest TVs at that time, all the modern accommodations. He had paintings of famous artists. It was a fancy penthouse, had all the modern accommodations. And then on the. Towards the back of the prison. And if I can explain, it's like a little hillside type. He called them chalets, basically apartments. So he had built apartment on chalets on the side of the prison, fancy ones, if you needed to go, relax, go with someone, they have this chalets right outside the building. So it was not a prison. It was all luxury type living.

[Steve Murphy]

So why the heck did he escape from that luxury? Why did he go on the run?

[Javier Pena]

He went on the run because we or the Colombian government was going to move him to a real jail cell, bringing him back to Bogota, because the governor of Colombia found out that he had killed two of his best friends inside the prison. And he had ordered the massacre of other families in Medellin that he thought were cheating on him, taking money from him. So there was bloodbath in Medellin orchestrated by Pablo Escobar, and he had killed two of his traffickers. So that's what prompted the government of Colombia to move him.

[Steve Murphy]

So he got tipped off, right? And he escaped and went on the run. And then that's when you guys were called in.

[Unknown]

We were already, you know, living in Bogota, working with Colombian National Police. I don't know that he got tipped off, because what happened is they sent the deputy justice minister, a guy by the name of Mendoza, a young man, maybe 25 years old. Up there with a Colombian military unit, ostensibly to tell Pablo, listen, we're going to move you to another prison temporarily so that we can reinforce the security of your existing prison. And it's all a ruse to get him out of there and hopefully not suffer any bloodshed. So when they got up there, the Deputy Justice Minister goes in, and of course, they saw right through the charade. They held him captive. Eventually, they sent in a special unit of Columbia police officers, the copas. They conducted the raid. Unbelievably, no good guys were killed. There were several guards killed during the raid. Unbelievably Mendoza. They were able to get him out unharmed. It's just a miracle that he's still alive. So I don't think there was a tip off to it. But Pablo, I mean, he saw what was going to happen here. He wasn't going to give up his nice accommodations, plus the security of his prisoners. Again, the deal of a lifetime.

[Dan Snow]

We're talking about Pablo Escobar and the war on drugs. More coming up.

[Steve Murphy]

But on the run, his organization falls apart. I mean, not only is there the violence, you guys experience violence trying to catch him, but there's a wave of violence as his leadership of that organization starts to come apart and people start jockeying for position.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Steve Murphy]

It sounded like a very, very difficult time.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it was.

[Javier Pena]

And you know what? When he first escaped from the so called prison, it was in disarray. He was running, he was trying to get organized, and he was very vulnerable. And we were there. And you know what? I'll be honest. We should have had him and at the very beginning. But we made some errors in our strategy later on. We corrected those errors, which is what helped us and brought him down towards the end. You know what, Dan? If I can also discredit one of the Colombians, Colonel Ogo Martinez. He was our boss in Medellin. He wasn't there when Pablo Escobar escaped. And he had been chasing Pablo for, I don't know, three, four years. So, anyway, long story short, when Pablo escapes, we don't have Martinez there. And we're. We're not that good. We're not that organized. We had some problems in our hierarchy. So once we brought back Martinez, it all changed. And obviously took us, what, 18 months?

[Unknown]

Steve.

Right, right.

[Javier Pena]

And like I said, Steve was there towards the end. I mean, I was there. We were there together. That's where the emergence of Los Pepe's came into existence. And Los Pepe was that right wing vigilante group in Medellin that was made up of traffickers that wanted to kill Pablo Escobar. Pablo killed their bosses. So this guy wanted to kill anybody associated with Pablo. They wanted to kill his mother, his wife, his two kids. They were able to, oh, we calculated 30 friends, attorneys, teachers that were teaching these kids. I mean, it was a personal. It was a blood war. And they would torture those guys that would tie their hands, torture them, kill them. And they put that placard, Los Pepe's, which was getting publicized. So Pablo knew it was them. So he was running from Los Pepe's. He was running from us. Towards the end, you know, he was so afraid of Los Pepe's that he tried to get his family members out of the country, put him on an airplane, go to Miami, Florida. We stopped that. They had visas. We stopped that. Then he put him on a plane to go to Frankfurt, Germany, and we found out about that plot. Luckily, Germany did not allow the family to stay there. They sent him back to Bogota.

[Steve Murphy]

So actually, this period when he's on the run, he's in trouble. He's struggling to keep his enemies at bay.

[Unknown]

Pretty much, he's running through his resources. You know, at one point, he had as many as 500 sicarios protecting him. I mean, he had a small army there. Right. The day that he was killed, he had one sicario left. His nickname was Limon. He was killed also in that final shootout. He was losing his influence over people. He was losing his power base. The Cali cartel was funding Los Pepys, so they pretty much had unlimited funding. He was just running out of people who were willing to protect him.

[Steve Murphy]

So tell me about that fateful day that you mentioned. It's late 1993. December 1993. Was he difficult to find? Were you guys coming to the end of your tether, or did you feel you were closing in on him?

[Unknown]

There was a time period a couple months before he was killed where Javier and I were. We were getting frustrated. We kind of ran into a dry period where we weren't getting a lot of leads, a lot of tips coming in, and just frustrated. We've been living in Medellin all this time. My wife's back in Bogota by herself. She and I adopted our first daughter in October of 93. And I'm in Medellin and my family's back there, and my two sons were still hunting in the United States at the time. So, you know, you start feeling sorry for yourself, just to be quite honest. But then we would see one of our police friends would get killed in an operation. And that kind of brings your focus back to quit feeling sorry for yourself. You know, get back on mission, get back to the job, and let's get this thing done. So when early December comes around, we knew we were close. We knew we were really close.

[Dan Snow]

And.

[Unknown]

And Javier mentioned Colonel Ugo Martinez, superhero. I mean, he's the head of the search block there, and he's our boss in Medellin. True hero. His son, Lt. Ugo Martinez, had trained himself on how to use radio directional finding equipment. And the telephone systems back then, especially systems that Pablo were using, were just basically radio telephones. So it operates off of radio frequency. If Pablo wanted to thwart our efforts to listen to his calls, he knew we were intercepting him. If he wanted to make it so we couldn't listen, all he had to do was change the dial to a different frequency. But it's not quite that simple, because he's got to get that new frequency to the people he wants to talk to. That makes sense. So it's a little bit challenging for him as well. Well, we can talk about this now. The CIA had an operation there called Center Spike. And basically Center Spike was a twin engine airplane that flew over the city of Medellin with radio intercept equipment. And they were the ones monitoring the frequencies to try to identify the new frequency. Well, Javier had an informant who was able to come up with that new frequency, called him, gave it to him, we passed it ca. They gave it to Center Spike, and we got confirmation that that was in his new frequency. So on December 2, 1993, now the day before, and this is my biggest regret with the whole operation, the Ambassador made Javier go to Miami to talk to an informant, a guy named Naviganti, who's portrayed in the Narco series. He's a real person. So Javier was forced to go to Miami because, you know, the Ambassador, he's the President's representative, and if you don't do what he tells you, he can kick you out of country. But back at the base, Lieutenant Martinez was able, using his equipment, he was able to pinpoint the location. And as he's driving down the street, he says he looked up and he saw Pablo looking at him on the phone. These guys are in plain clothes. But the equipment that he was using required him to hold a handheld antenna out the window of his car and drive down the street, holding that up in the air. And that's, you know, very unusual. But we've gone back and listened to the tapes where Pablo was. He was actually talking to his son, Juan Pablo. And there's no indication that he realized what he was seeing. And you know how it is. Like we're all talking now and we're seeing each other, but we're kind of reliving these events in your mind, and you're really not realizing what you're seeing at that very moment. And that's the only explanation we've ever come up with as to why Pablo didn't listen. I gotta go, you know, and then try to escape. So the Deheen unit, this is a specialized group of Columbia National Police officers that Javier and I worked with, we lived with, we ate with. These are the guys that protected us while we were there. They were out there with the lieutenant. They surrounded the place. Now, in the Narco series, it shows that I was on the roof when Pablo was killed. That's not true. I was back at the base. Things were happening in the base. I went over to Colonel Martinez's office and the operation was underway. Colonel Martinez is telling the major in charge of Deheen, listen, we're mounting the troops up. Surround him, but don't let him get away. Do what you have to do. Well, they go ahead and launch an operation. And that was about 10, 12 guys. So they launch an operation on this three story row house. As we now know, he only had one sicario left, Limon. As the police enter the row house and start making their way up the steps, Pablo starts shooting at him. They shoot back. Limon jumps out the window of the third floor of this row house onto the roof of a two story row house behind him. So he's making his way over the edge. The police on that side order him to surrender. He starts shooting at them, and they shoot him. And he falls off the roof dead. Pablo makes his way up to the third floor. He realizes now there's cops outside and there's cops coming up the steps. So he's in a really, really precarious situation here. He goes out and jumps onto the roof of the two story behind him. As he's trying to make his way across, he starts shooting at the police again. They catch him in a crossfire, and he was killed that day. This was December 2, 1993. So my biggest regret, you know, Javier was there twice as long as I was in Columbia. He should have been there rather than me. That's the only regret I have about this whole operation.

[Javier Pena]

I'll just say, hey, you know what? I'm glad it happened. I'm glad Steve was there and Steve, you had the only camera, right? That's what.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I had the only camera that worked.

[Javier Pena]

But you know what? It was the end of, like I said, very violent era in Colombia that was carried out by Pablo Escobar. So I'm glad it happened. It needed to happen. I mean, if you look at all the people that Pablo killed, Steven, I put the figure at 10 to 15,000 people, and we were way off one of Pablo's bars. Main sicario is a guy by the name of Popeye who was with Pablo during all this time. He puts the figure at 50,000 people that Pablo Escobar killed when he died.

[Steve Murphy]

When he was killed, you were optimistic about the future. Did things improve afterwards?

[Javier Pena]

Yeah, yeah, it improved for about, what, a couple of weeks? About a month. Everything stopped. And then the Cali cartel took it over. Cali cartel was a vicious enemy of Pablo Escobar. They helped financial pepes. The Cali cartel took over the business. So it was drug trafficking again. However, the car bomb stopped the assassinations, the kidnappings. Cali Cartel was more business, like where Pablo was wild, wild west. Then what happened? We take down the Cali cartel. What happened? Another cartel, the North Valley Cartel, takes over. So you take down the cartel, there's people ready to take over the drug business.

[Steve Murphy]

So when you look back at those experiences, did your sacrifice, did the dangers that you guys run, were they worth it?

[Unknown]

Absolutely. Absolutely. People say, let's legalize it. You can't just stand back. And there's more to it than just legalizing because of the deaths that are involved with this. Whether it's an accidental overdose or whether it's a vicious criminal like Pablo Escobar or the Rodriguez Oruela brothers or whoever the drug traffickers are, there are innocent people being killed. You can't turn a blind eye to this.

[Steve Murphy]

Do you guys look back with pride on that?

[Javier Pena]

Yes, we helped. We were part of history. And you know what? This thing really happened. We witnessed it. We saw the heroes. We saw the innocent people that got killed. We saw friends of ours, police officers that got killed. I hope I never go through that again. I mean, we went to a funeral where we had eight coffins. Eight coffins in the church alone had been our friends killed by Pablo Escobar. We saw a lot. We experienced a lot. And it's a point in history where someone is just killing. No disregard, of course, for human life. I mean, and if you look at even the Avianca airline, the Avianca airline was a commercial airline that was going from Bogota To Cali. Pablo Escobar put a bomb on that airplane. 107 innocent people were killed. Pablo Escobar was there, put a bomb to kill one person who was not on board that plane. I mean, look at all the victims that they killed. And if you just don't do anything about it, well, what's going to happen? You know? And this is why. You know what? In all our presentations, we always say the real heroes were the Colombian National Police Colonel Logo Martinez, General Octavio Vargas Silva. This guy, the general was the one who organized the search and published war and never gave up. So they're the heroes and all the victims out there. So you have to do something. Like Steve said, when we see our friends get killed, yeah, we wanted to give up. We wanted to let him surrender and just all go home. But you just cannot do that. You got to stay with that fight until the end.

[Steve Murphy]

You know, you guys have seen people do the worst things that any human has done living. You know, today. Do you feel positive about human beings, about the world? Are you optimists?

[Javier Pena]

Of course. You know what? And I tell people the majority of us are all good people. The majority. You know what? It's a small little percent. That is not. But the majority of the people are great people. They're good people. And of course, it was worth it being out there. We saw our friends get killed. But the majority of law enforcement is good. They're trying to do the right thing. It's that few rotten apples. And we've had them in dea. We had them in Colombia. And, you know, we've seen the media out there of bad people, wrong people, but the majority are still good.

[Unknown]

You got to have hope. That's not being naive. The golden rule is do unto others that you'd have them do unto you. Treat your fellow man with respect. Not to sound naive or stupid, but, I mean, there's no rule that says we can't all get along. That was the premise of my leadership as we got promoted up through the ranks. There was no rule that said we couldn't have fun at work. You don't have to come in to be miserable every day. So if you want to be miserable, life's as good or as bad as you make it individually.

[Steve Murphy]

Well, thank you very much, Stephen, Javier, it's been inspiring talking to you. Thank you very much indeed.

[Unknown]

Well, Dan, thank you for having us on the show. If your listeners would like to find out more about us, if you could check out www.Deanarcos. n a r c o s dot com. That's our website. We're still in our world Speaking tour. We've done two UK tours. We love coming to England and Ireland and Scotland. I mean, three of the most beautiful places in the world. Just check us out on the website and you'll see how great we think.

[Steve Murphy]

We are for sure. Come on another tour soon, guys. Thank you very much indeed.

[Javier Pena]

Thank you, Dan.

[Unknown]

Thank you.

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