Dan Snow's History Hit

Episode: The Rise and Fall of Carthage
Date: August 28, 2025
Guests:

• Dan Snow (Host, "A")
• Dr. Eve MacDonald (Senior Lecturer in Ancient History, Cardiff University, "E")

Overview

In this episode, Dan Snow explores the dramatic history of Carthage, from its Phoenician origins to its rise as a Mediterranean superpower and ultimate destruction by Rome. Joined by Dr. Eve MacDonald, an expert on Carthage and author of A New History of an Ancient Empire, the discussion journeys through the epic Punic Wars—unpacking their causes, the legendary commanders involved, and why Rome ultimately prevailed.

Episode Highlights & Key Discussion Points

1. Carthage: Empire of the Ancient Mediterranean (05:04–10:09)

• Scope of Carthaginian Power: Eve MacDonald argues that Carthage deserves status as an ancient empire, comparable in scale to the Romans, Persians, and Qin (05:04).
• Nature of Empire: Carthage’s empire was not a 19th-century-style bureaucratic state, but a network of one-sided alliances, tributes, and spheres of influence (06:17).
• Maritime Origins: Carthage, founded as a Phoenician colony ("new city") from Tyre, leveraged its maritime acumen to establish trade and settlements across the Mediterranean (07:58, 09:01).
• Diverse & Cosmopolitan: Carthage became a melting pot, with Phoenicians, Greeks, Numidians (Amazigh/Berber), and others cohabiting a vibrant, prosperous city (14:17).

Eve MacDonald: "It’s like Toronto might have been... These are new cities, people are coming for opportunities. It’s not just one group of people." (15:17)

2. Carthage and Rome: Centuries of Contact Before War (16:07–17:41)

• Diplomatic Treaties: Early treaties (as early as the 6th century BCE) show Carthage and Rome managing trade zones and spheres of influence long before hostilities (16:07).
• Long Coexistence: Despite later mythologizing, the two powers spent far more time cooperating than at war (17:18).

3. The First Punic War: Sicily and the Birth of Naval Rome (17:55–24:44)

• Origins of Conflict: The struggle for influence in Sicily—sparked by mercenaries at Messina and involvement of Pyrrhus—led to a massive, costly war (18:31).
• Major Battles: Sprawling land and sea warfare; the war nearly bankrupted both and revealed the depth of each state's resources (21:18).
• Rome at Sea: For the first time, Rome developed a formidable navy, springboarding its later imperial expansion (23:38).

Dan Snow: "They learn how to sail. The Romans are bad enough before, now they've got ships." (24:44)

4. Consequences & Internal Strife: The Aftermath of Punic War I (24:58–30:29)

• African Invasions: Roman invasions exposed Carthage’s vulnerabilities; the use of elephants and the involvement of Numidian allies shifted power structures in North Africa (24:58, 26:36).
• Mercenary Rebellion: Carthage’s inability to pay mercenaries sparked a brutal internal war, highlighting political and economic fragility (29:12).

5. The Barcids in Iberia: Prelude to Catastrophe (30:29–36:14)

• Hamilcar, Hasdrubal, and Hannibal: The Barca family rebuilds Carthaginian power in Iberia (Spain, Portugal), creating new wealth and a military base (32:35).
• Hannibal’s Training: Raised in a military environment, trained in Greek and Punic strategy, Hannibal emerges as a leader (33:29).

6. The Second Punic War: Hannibal vs. Rome (37:10–69:04)

a. War Breaks Out (37:10–41:54)

• Saguntum and the Ebro Treaty: Dispute over the city of Saguntum—south of the Roman/Carthaginian agreed border—becomes the casus belli for renewed war (35:27–37:10).
• Political Motivations: Both Rome and Carthage harbor ambitious war factions, seeing conflict as inevitable or desirable (37:33).

Eve MacDonald: "Who starts the Second Punic War? Well, the Romans blame Hannibal 100%. ... It seems to be both sides are pretty willing to fight this war..." (37:33)

b. Hannibal’s Audacious Campaign (44:16–51:00)

• March over the Alps: Hannibal famously marches his heterogeneous army—including elephants—through the Pyrenees and Alps, a miracle of endurance and logistics (44:16–45:42).
• Strategic Genius: Seeks to undermine Rome by winning over Italian allies, replicating Roman tactics in Africa during the First Punic War (46:32).

Dan Snow: "Suddenly a thunderbolt arrives in your backyard in Northern Italy." (48:32)

Eve MacDonald: "For the first few years of this war... it's really Hannibal's war. He's in charge. The Romans are on the back foot almost the whole time." (48:53)

c. The Road to Cannae (51:00–57:26)

• Early Triumphs: Hannibal’s superior strategy and leadership lead to crushing victories at Trebia, Lake Trasimeno, and especially Cannae (51:04–55:36).
• Roman Resilience: Despite catastrophic losses, Rome refuses to negotiate peace, musters new armies, and adopts a strategy of attrition—and avoidance (58:43–59:46).

Eve MacDonald: "They refuse to give in, they refuse to make peace, they refuse to accept that they've lost." (58:54)

d. The Wider War: Spain, Southern Italy, and the Roman Fightback (61:23–66:43)

• Multiple Fronts: Rome’s decision to keep fighting in Spain and elsewhere strains Hannibal’s supply lines and Carthaginian resources (61:38).
• Alliances Shift: Cities in southern Italy, including Greek and Oscan states, defect to Hannibal but are recaptured by Rome—often brutally (63:21).

e. The Endgame: Scipio Africanus and the Fall of Carthaginian Power (65:07–69:04)

• Scipio’s Spanish Campaign: Publius Scipio the Younger (later Africanus), after his father and uncle’s deaths in Spain, leads a resurgent Roman campaign, capturing New Carthage and turning the war’s tide (65:21).
• Invasion of Africa: Scipio gathers Numidian allies, invades Africa, forcing Carthage to recall Hannibal, culminating in the Battle of Zama (68:06).
• Zama (202 BC): Scipio’s tactical brilliance, including neutralizing elephants, decides the war (68:12–69:09).
• Aftermath: Carthage must pay a 50-year annual tribute; Hannibal flees into exile (69:15).

7. Carthage After the Wars: Recovery, Dread, and Final Destruction (70:02–79:20)

• Recovery and Prosperity: Archaeology suggests Carthage bounced back materially, though politically unstable—so much so it offered to pay off the war indemnity early (70:28).
• Rome’s Insecurity: Fears of a renewed Carthaginian threat (fueled by hawks like Cato the Elder) lead to ‘Carthago delenda est’—Carthage must be destroyed (74:26–75:20).
• Third Punic War (149–146 BC): Provoked by disputes with Numidian neighbors and Roman machinations, Rome besieges Carthage in a brutal, three-year campaign (75:56–78:00).

Eve MacDonald: "You're telling people to give up your religion, your identity, your family, your history, your everything about you... They say no. And the siege happens and they last for three years." (75:56–77:08)

• Destruction of Carthage: The city is destroyed, survivors enslaved, and the site symbolically cursed (though not, as rumor later claimed, sown with salt) (78:00–79:20).

8. The Legacy of Carthage and its Memory (79:20–81:03)

• Loss of Source Material: Roman destruction of Carthage led to the loss of Carthaginian texts and histories, complicating modern reconstruction of events (79:20).
• Rebirth in a Roman Image: Despite the curse, Rome builds a new, prosperous city on the site—later to become a center of Christianity and Islamic rule (79:58–81:03).

Dan Snow: "But it's what's called a Carthaginian peace, which is seen as this resolving a situation by just annihilation." (78:34)

Memorable Quotes

• Dan Snow: "It is Rome versus Carthage. Two city states turned regional empires...fighting for dominance over the Mediterranean world." (02:20)
• Eve MacDonald: "Hannibal takes good care of his soldiers to make sure they're capable of fighting, and how unprepared the Romans are for fighting in the cold. And it's a bit of a wipeout." (52:49)
• Dan Snow: "Roman history is littered with catastrophic defeats. But they don't know when they're beaten, those guys." (27:32)
• Eve MacDonald: "The city is burnt. It burns to the ground. And Carthage as we know it as an ancient Punic city ends in 146 BC..." (78:00)
• Dan Snow: "If it's salt, why do the Romans build a lovely city there?" (78:29)

Notable Timelines & Timestamps

• 05:04 – Eve MacDonald: Carthage as a true ancient empire
• 10:22 – Carthage’s strategic geography and natural harbor
• 11:12 – Dido and the Roman foundation myth
• 16:07 – Earliest recorded treaty between Rome and Carthage
• 17:55 – The conflict over Sicily; Pyrrhus and the prelude to war
• 21:18 – The First Punic War's cost and impact
• 29:12 – The Mercenary Rebellion and impact on Carthaginian stability
• 33:29 – Hannibal’s upbringing and military education
• 44:16 – Hannibal’s Alpine crossing
• 51:04 – Battles of the Second Punic War: Trebia, Trasimeno, Cannae
• 65:21 – Scipio’s Spanish campaigns and turn of the war
• 68:06 – The Battle of Zama
• 74:26 – Cato’s call for Carthage’s destruction
• 75:56 – The siege and destruction of Carthage

Tone and Language

The conversation flows with Dan Snow’s signature animated enthusiasm and sweeping narrative style, balanced by Eve MacDonald’s precise, evidence-based, yet accessible historical explanations. There is an ongoing sense of amazement at ancient logistics, psychology, and resilience—punctuated by wry asides (“It’s the Soviet way of war” – 28:10), historical parallels, and a strong sense of wonder at the drama of Mediterranean antiquity.

Conclusion

This episode delivers a panoramic examination of one of antiquity’s greatest rivalries. From cosmopolitan Phoenician beginnings through epic military showdowns and political intrigue, to obliteration and myth-making, Carthage’s story is as complex and tragic as that of any empire. The discussion highlights not just military strategy but also the layers of mythology, cultural exchange, and the shaping of historical memory.