← Dan Snow's History Hit
Dan Snow's History Hit
SAS Hijacked A Fascist Train To Liberate A Concentration Camp
00:48:32
The surprise attack deep behind enemy lines on an Italian concentration camp to free its prisoners.
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- [00:00]
Dan Snow
Have you been enjoying my podcast and now want even more history? Sign up to History and watch the world's best history documentaries on subjects like how William conquered England, what it was like to live in the Georgian era, and you can even hear the voice of Richard iii. We've got hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, and there's always something more to discover. Sign up to join us in historic locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyit.com subscribe.
- [00:33]
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- [01:09]
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- [02:43]
Dan Snow
One of the most elite fighting forces ever assembled, the Special Air Service, the sas. These were not ordinary soldiers, handpicked, highly trained mavericks. They were deployed where the risks were greatest and the margins for error were razor thin. And the story at the heart of today's episode, it might be the most extraordinary mission of World War II. We are joined by the best selling historian, author Damian Lewis to talk about his book the Great Train Raid, which uncovers a forgotten wartime mission. The hijacking of a pirate train. Yes, a pirate train which the SAS would use to launch a surprise raid on an Italian concentration camp. Today we're going to get into exactly what happened that day and how only the SAS could have pulled it off. Enjoy. Damien, great to have you back on the podcast. How you doing?
- [03:47]
Damian Lewis
Brilliant, brilliant. So good to be there again.
- [03:50]
Dan Snow
I mean, I don't know how you keep finding these stories. The SAS in the wartime SES is the gift that keeps on giving, isn't it? It's just extra extraordinary what this unit gets up to. What do you think it was about war at this time and indeed in the 20th century into our own day that made this unit, well, you know, made it so effective.
- [04:09]
Damian Lewis
Dan. You know, we, we founded Special Forces soldiering in World War II. And these men were charged to do the unthinkable. In fact, they were charged to think the unthinkable in terms of ways to attack the enemy and then to put that into operation. Because if you can think of an unthinkable way to attack the enemy, by default the enemy will never have conceded of it. That's the beauty of it. So these were maverick lateral thinkers, piratical individuals, and that's exactly what they proceeded to do. It's one of the reasons why they were so unpopular, because they were doing things in a completely different way. Now what does that mean? It means that that legacy that, that that model upon which all Special Forces now are founded, bear in mind, when the US wanted to make Delta Force, which is their nearest equivalent to the sas, what did they do? They got their two guys and put them through SAS selection in the Brecon Beacons to learn how to do it. Bucky Burris, who's a good friend of mine, is one of the first people to have done it. So they then went back to America and founded Delta Force. This is. So we invented the model that everyone now uses. And how does that cascade down into the present day? Well, I was with some fairly senior figures from Ukraine Special Forces recently. And what Ukraine is doing in terms of Special Forces operations is absolutely brilliant. They are pushing the envelope to the degree almost that the SAS did in World War II. Look at Operation Spider's Web. And I spoke to the guys about it, said spider's Web, that's the mission where they sent in drones aboard trucks thousands of kilometers inside Russia to then release those drones and attack Russian airfields. It's exactly what Paddy Mayne and David Stirling were doing in the North African desert. The only difference is they were driving jeeps through the desert thousands of kilometers to attack these airfields with their jeep mounted machine guns and Ukrainians drove trucks full of drones. And that's one of many, many missions the Ukrainians have done which are just stunning in terms of their innovation and their vision. And when I was talking to this chap, you know, from Ukraine Special Forces, you know, two things he said, I said, how are you managing to do it? He said, well, one, this is an existential battle with fighting for our survival. So that means the, you know, necessity of the is the mother of all invention. But he said, two, don't think we don't look at what happened in World War II and take examples from that and adapt them for the present day.
- [06:40]
Dan Snow
That's amazing, fascinating stuff. Let's go back to World War II. Now. You've mentioned David Sterling, you mentioned Paddy Maine. Many people listen to this podcast, will have heard you on previous episodes. Let's just quickly rehearse. The SAS emerges, although as you've shown, there's very kind of murky beginnings and there's different traditions and strains. But roughly speaking, the SAS as we understand emerges in North Africa. There's a couple of visionaries. Just very quickly give us the genesis and then let's get on some of the, some of the raids that you want to highlight in your latest work.
- [07:09]
Damian Lewis
Yeah. So very quickly, Special Air Service, June 1940, Churchill, aftermath of Dunkirk calls for, you know, thousands of commandos to be raided. A new way of waging warfare and cascading down from that in the North African desert in the summer of 1941, David Stirling, tall guards officer, you know, commando trained, puts forward this idea for a raiding force in the North African desert. Really, really, really simple idea. Just beautiful in its simplicity. You know, North Africa, the war's being waged along the coastal strip, that's, that's just where everybody fights because no one believes you can navigate or survive in the Sahara Desert. So David Stirling says, well, why don't we learn how to navigate and survive in the Savara Desert. Then we can go thousands of kilometers behind enemy lines and attack the enemy in a way that they would never conceive of as being possible. That is the genesis of the idea of the SAS. So the 62 old originals that he recruited included obviously himself. Then there was Jock Lewis, who was one of the visionary founders of SAS selection. But then also Blair Paddy Main, the. The Northern Irishman who was bought in initially as their PT physical training specialist because he was a Irish and British and Irish Lions, Rugby international. Also the University of Ireland heavyweight boxing champion. Just a stunning sportsman. So obviously he was brought in as the PT operate officer. But interestingly, ME was also made by Sterling, the discipline officer of the sas. He was the man charged to keep discipline. And Paddy Mayne had a very good idea of how you keep discipline. He said to the guys, listen, you do anything wrong, you come and tell me. There'll be no paperwork, there'll be no stain on your record. All you have to do is stand as many rounds as you can stand with me in the boxing ring at that training base in North Africa, and we will call it quits. But he said, because he was an Irishman with that brilliant Irish sense of humor, he said, but look, if you can come up with an excuse that makes me laugh, I might let you off. I'll just give a quick example. So this guy goes out drinking, comes back, he's late, and he goes before Paddy Main. And Paddy Maine says, you know, what's your excuses? But it's like this, sir. He says, I was coming back. Well, in time, stopped for a cigarette, to light a cigarette, had to turn around because blowing a hooli in the desert, as often does. So I turned around to light the cigarette, forgot to turn back around again, walked for two hours in the wrong direction because, you know, Paddy, all the desert looks the same. That's why I'm late. And because he made Paddy Main laugh, he was let off. So, yeah, that's a brief nutshell of the kind of founding ethos of the sas. It was egalitarian. It was quality above rank. Your background, your education, your career. Before the war, none of that mattered. All that mattered was whether you were willing to take the fight to the Nazi enemy in these borderline suicidal missions across the North African desert. And that you could think completely outside of the box and find means to attack the enemy that the enemy never even conceived of.
- [10:15]
Dan Snow
I would be very happy to. To have a disciplinary attached to my permanent record rather than go toe to toe with Paddy Maine in The boxing ring, I'd be like, stick it. I can take the career. You know, the career hit. Okay, so we've got North Africa. Many striking successes took against airfields when it comes to invading Southern Europe. The Italian campaign in 1943. How are the SAS? How's it envisaged that the SAS will work?
- [10:43]
Damian Lewis
Yes, a great question. So by now we're talking summer 1943. David Stirling, founder of the SS, has been captured. So he's in captivity. Paddy May has been forced to take over command. Why do I say forced? Because it's something he never sought. It was thrust upon him. And many of you believed that he would be an utter failure that he would not be able to survive in the corridors of power. And actually he proved them all wrong. Because before the war, Paddy Mayne was also a trained solicitor. So he had a brilliant legal brain in his head, didn't suffer fools gladly but he knew how to operate on that level. And because they are deeply unpopular, you know, the mavericks they were accused of being, you know, in official reports, raiders of the thug variety. That's how they were referred to. So because they are unpopular, they're used in one SAS are used in a way which is absolutely, completely incompatible with how they should be used. And what happened was they were sent in to act, serve at the tip of the spear to storm the cliff tops in Sicily and take the big shore guns that would blow the Allied invasion fleet out of the water. That's a kind of commando role. Not deep behind the lines sabotage operations which is what the SAS were formed for. However, at the same time, David Stirling's brother, Bill Stirling, in my view even more of a visionary than David Stirling actually had trained and recruited and formed two SAS. The 2nd SAS Regiment in Algeria in the North African desert. And those guys were ready to go in and Bill Sterling, brilliant, brilliant mind, he said, this is what we're going to do. We're going to drop 302 to four man patrols deep behind enemy lines laden down with explosives and they are going to paralyze the German rail road and communication networks because that number of men will be able to completely freeze up their system and. And it will have a massive impact upon winning the war. Unfortunately. Really, really deeply. Unfortunately. Again, because many in command didn't understand the SAS or appreciate how they should be used he was only permitted to send one or two of those patrols into theatre. So what happened Instead was that two SAs were sent into Taranto in September 1943 the key Italian port to act in exactly the same role as Paddy Maine's one SAS and act as stormtroopers to lead the assault and bring the Allies ashore.
- [13:16]
Dan Snow
Which, as you say, no doubt a job they could do, but it doesn't play to their strengths 100%.
- [13:21]
Damian Lewis
This is not a task for which all of that brilliant SS selection and training and lateral thinking is necessary. You know, this is a stormtrooper task, it's a Pathfinder task. It's not a typical Special Forces task, not at all.
- [13:36]
Dan Snow
But Damien, I didn't know about this. You very excitingly have identified a raid that you feel does show the SAS working at their best in their role really as sort of demolition experts almost and paralysing enemy logistics. We should remember, of course, the old dictum that enthusiasts talk about tactics, experts talk about logistics. So paralyzing enemy logistics is vital. That's stuff, that's oil, that's weapons, that's supplies, it's boots and food moving around, getting to the battlefront. And you've identified a raid that takes place in Northern Italy later in 1943. Tell me about that. Tell me about Speedwell.
- [14:13]
Damian Lewis
Operation Speedwell was one of the few missions that Bill Sterling, you know, got green lit. And it was along the vision that he, he had for the whole of Italy. I mean, Speedwell was supposed to be proof of concept, was supposed to be, you know, Bill Sterling's chance to prove that these kind of operations work. Eight men were sent in under the command of a absolutely wonderful, brilliant, a man who was loved by his men, adored by his men. So Lieutenant Hugh Pinkney, fantastic individual. Just give you one quick anecdote because this is you, Pinkney, through and through. So the training in North Africa and Algeria and a load of guards officers are recruited into, into the SS and pukka Guards officers, they arrive and, you know, the sense of the dress code of the SAS was pretty damn fluid. You could pretty much wear what you wanted, what you felt comfortable in.
- [15:07]
Dan Snow
And we should say, Damien, that the guards, for those listening abroad, these are the people that they're guarding Buckingham palace, they're on royal duties, marching about and they're all spit and polish, right?
- [15:16]
Damian Lewis
Yeah. So they turn up and they're rather aghast at the sense of dress of particularly the SAS officers. And so they put a rule that's kind of dictum out saying, you know, from now on, officers will dress formally for dinner, you know, in the middle of a training camp in North Africa. And they know that Hugh Pinkney is a real maverick and an absolute champion of his men. And so one of Them comes to Hugh Pinkney and says, look, you know, you need to understand, you need to wear a tie to dinner. So Hugh Pinkney says to his men, gather at the officers mess tonight. So you get a good view, right? And he proceeds to turn up at the officer's mess, lasts for dinner, walks in wearing only a tie and nothing else. There's absolute silence in the mess. And then a few seconds later, the first laughter starts. Everyone bursts out laughing. And it's kind of like he pulls it off. He sits through the whole of the dinner naked, apart from a tie. But seriously, for a moment, Hugh Pinkney, why he was such an amazing commander. He'd injured his back and recently, just before this, in a parachute operation. And this is the measure of the man. And he'd said to himself and the few people he confided in, I can't let Bill Sterling know or any of those in command, because if they know, they will ground me and I won't be able to deploy into Italy. So he tells one of his men, Horace Stokes, the sergeant on the patrol, the only way I can actually operate and deploy is if you spray this, it's a painkiller spray, onto his back where he's injured it. So Horace Stokes, his sergeant, has got the. The job of keeping him operational by killing the pain, but he's also keeping the secret that his, the commanding officer of the patrol is injured. So when they fly in on this mission, Operation Speedwell, and they're deploying Dan, 800 kilometers north of Rome, they are a long way from home. And bear in mind during the briefing, you know, it ends, and one of them says, well, okay, yeah, we get it. We're going in to blow up enemy trains in tunnels. That's all fine, but how do we get back again? And they're told, well, that's up to you. So They've been dropped 800km north of Rome with no radio. They've got no way of making comms with headquarters and no plans to get them out again. They've just got to find a way to make one. Anyway, the point is, they fly in to deploy at night, and Hugh Pinkney, their commander, typically, is the first out of the aircraft. And as he jumps, no one would imagine that he's as badly injured as he is because he leaps out of the aircraft as if there is everything to plan for. And you know that that's the start of this mission on which they are extremely successful. You know, Pinkney himself, tragically, is never found after the jump. The men can't locate him, can't find him much, that they search and call his name. And obviously Horace Stokes is, is, you know, convinced that he's had an accident upon landing because of injured back. He's, you know, he's died or he's completely incapacitated, but they can't, they can't keep searching for him because they, they've been seen during the parachute drop and the enemy already hunting for them. So they have to leave him behind. And they split into two groups and they set up on their operation. Stokes and his two fellows carry out this amazing sabotage operation deep in a train tunnel and blow up what is a German armored train. And having blown it up, the Germans, obviously confounded by what's happened and in the chaos and confusion, open fire on themselves. And then Stokes and his two fellows stop there. Epic escape and evasion. It's a thousand, it's more than a thousand miles to try to get back to Allied lines. That is their mission, really extraordinary.
- [19:07]
Dan Snow
And they, and they make, they do make it back. I mean, you say it's 800 kilometers north of Rome, but the Allies aren't even in Rome. But I mean, they're right down at the bottom Italy. Right. So they are. And they managed to hike all the way back.
- [19:16]
Damian Lewis
Two of them managed to make it back to Allied lines overland somehow. Incredibly, Horace Stokes as he parachutes down. It's very windy, it's borderline operational conditions. They probably shouldn't have parachuted at all, but typical of the ss, they went anyway. Anyway, a gust of wind blows Stokes onto. Onto the roof of a farmstead. And he lands on the roof. His parachute gets caught up in the chimney. He's left hanging, dangling into space, and he cuts his parachute lines and drops and injures his groin in the process. And by the time he's approaching Rome, Stokes realizes that he's so ill from his injury that he can't go on. Well, certainly he can't accept this, expect his two fellows to continue traveling with him because he's holding back too much. So he says to them, you go on without me and leave me. And very reluctantly, they do. So Stokes is then left in an Italian farmstead 200 km north of Rome, knowing he's dying. He knows he's dying very, very sick. In fact, he had septice. Septicemia. So he decides there's only one option. I must steal a bicycle, cycle to Rome, find my way into the Vatican, persuade them I am who I am. Because he'd heard that the Vatican was running this Secret escape line for allied POWs, which they were. And so that's exactly what he does. I mean, I don't know how he did it, because, you know, injured with septicemia, with a. With a very, very, very painful groin, in agony, cycling 200 miles through Italy on a stolen bicycle, and then somehow navigating his way through Rome, getting to the Vatican, persuading his way into the Vatican, then persuading them he was a bona fide. Anyway, they don't know whether to believe him in his entirety, but what they do know is that he's on death's door. And so there's an escaped partisan who happens to be a surgeon, and he operates on Stokes and he. He castrates him. He takes off one of his testicles because he's so badly injured. That saves Stokes his life. Now, you can imagine at that stage, Stokes might have thought, yeah, I. I've kind of done enough for the war, going to take it. No, what he does once he's recovered is he starts to train the Italian partisans, the Italian resistance, using all the skills he has. Then he starts to fight alongside them and do sabotage operations. Finally, he's captured by the enemy and goes before the Gestapo and faces this horrendous torture. And he tells himself one thing. He says, look, if I tell the truth, if they break me and I'm forced to tell the truth, I am dead. Because they knew at this stage that Hitler wasn't very happy about commando and SAS operations, didn't really like them very much, thought they were rather not the done thing, and so had authored an order that all captured commandos and parachuters and SAs should be kept alive only for long enough to torture them and then. And then murdered. They've got a good idea this is what's happening. So Stokes sticks to his cover story, no matter what they do to his cover story is he's just a regular soldier who was a prisoner of war in Italian camp and escaped the camp. That's his cover story, and he sticks to it no matter what they do to him. And so eventually they believe him, and so they put him on a train and they send him north to Germany to a POW camp. And that is just the start of a series of the most incredible stakes by Horace Stokes, which end up with him, in 1945, breaking out of the prison of war camp he's in with two other individuals, stealing a German staff car, writing on the side of the staff car, daubing in paint, escaped Allied prisoners of war, and driving that staff car to the American lines because the Americans were approaching and finally getting back to Allied lines.
- [23:06]
Dan Snow
However many times I talked to you over the years, you keep finding people who every time are like, you can't possibly top this. And here you are, Damian, back on with these extraordinary stories. Damien we're going to check back in with what's going on in the south of Italy, but first we're going to cut to an ad. Don't go away everyone. More of Damien coming up after this.
- [23:28]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
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- [24:04]
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- [26:36]
Dan Snow
Damien, take me back. It's the autumn. It's the fall of 1943. How are the SAS being used in the amphibious landings in southern Italy?
- [26:43]
Damian Lewis
So the SAS 2 SAS is sent ashore at the forefront of the Taranto landings, Operation Slapstick. So they're there to see, to seize this incredibly important Italian port of Taranto, which they do. And all the, you know, all the airborne and other forces come ashore. Then they're acting as pathfinders, pushing routes out from Taranto and going up against the German parachute regiment which are in, in defense there and then. And of course, none. These are not typical SAS operations. And then something happens which is really rather surprising. They're in, they've actually seized Ciatona railway station just to the west of Taranto. That's they've made that their base. And then out of no man's land comes this individual and he says, my name is Zelko and I am an escaped Yugoslav partisan. And they're thinking, okay, where have you escaped from, why you're here? And he says, well, I've escaped from Pistischi concentration camp and I've come because they're about to ship all the inmates north to Nazi Germany. Now, several things fall out of that, of course, at this stage in the war, September 1943, no one in Allied command knew what a concentration camp was. We had no idea. So that obviously Oswald Karielwitz, the commander of the to SAS units on the ground, has no idea what a concentration camp is. So first of all, it's like, is this guy telling the truth? Because these horrors are, you know, inconceivable. And then when they're Convinced that he's telling the truth. Well, why have you come? He says, because they're about to ship every north, loading them aboard a train to Nazi Germany. And if they get them Nazi Germany, that is a death sentence. And in that concentration camp are obviously Jews. But there are also French, Yugoslav and Polish partisans and resistance fighters. There are former French Foreign Legionnaires and there are Italian priests and other intellectuals who've resisted Mussolini's fascist rule. Now, again, this is all true. So when Bill Sterling was recruiting into the SS in Algeria a few months back, he thought, there's all these French Foreign Legionnaires sat around with nothing to do. Because of course, the French Foreign Legionnaires, you know, in theory in North Africa, were now part of the Vichy regime, the regime of Vichy France, which wasn't fighting anymore. So Bill Sterling says what? As many French Foreign Legionnaires recruited at the SAS as possible. So he finds this chap called Raymond Corrad, Lieutenant Raymond Karaud, who is the most incredible figure almost I've ever come across in terms of operations. Right.
- [29:25]
Dan Snow
Well, that's a pretty, that's pretty. That's a pretty remarkable bar that he's crossed there because you've come across.
- [29:29]
Damian Lewis
Yeah, I mean, this, this guy. So he really. Brief character sketch. He's got a film star, mother who's American, an arms dealer, father who's French, bought up half in America, half in France, age of 18, volunteers for the French Foreign Legion. But if you're French, you can't join the French Foreign Legion theory, as you know. So he has to get a Belgian passport to then pretend he's Belgium to get into the Foreign Legion. Fights in Norway with the Foreign Legion in 1940 in the defense of Norway, wins the, the. The. The Croix de Guerre, comes back to France, France falls, deserts the Legion because he doesn't want to join Vichy French forces, goes to Marseille, the port city. Meets Mary Jane Gold, the beautiful, glittering, incredibly wealthy American socialite. In Marseille, she's helping run an escape line for Jews out of Europe and funding it. He has got gangster contact, underground gangster contacts by now in Marseille. He says, I'll use my gangster network to help you. They fall in love. She nicknames him Killer Karaud because of his background. They rescue together 2000 Jews and then the network gets penetrated. And Mary Jane Gold is fine because she's an American neutral country, she can just go back to the States. But Karaud is obviously not. So he has to. He manages this unbelievable escape, gets back to. Gets to the uk, Right, gets to the UK Volunteers for Hazardous Operations. Gets recruited into Special Operations Executive, wherein he is characterized as a lone wolf operator. Then gets parachuted back into France by the Special Operations Executive as an assassin, carries out several assassination operations, eventually gets hunted down by the Gestapo, escapes again, but by now they know his real name. So at that stage he's recruited into Bill Sterling's SAS under a false name because he can't serve in SOE anymore. You can't serve as an SOE agent if the enemy know your identity. So Raymond Karaud in North Africa in the, in Bill Sterling's SES training camp has gone around all the French Foreign Legion bases recruiting people. Of course you're not allowed to leave the French Foreign Legion. It's called desertion, isn't it? You face horrendous things if you desert the French Foreign Legion. But they're deserting in their droves because they're, they're hungry for action. And in Ciatona, their base, the two SAS base in southern Italy where the Yugoslav concentration camp internally turns up a significant part of Kari Alwes 2 SAS force is made up of Kourauld and his French Foreign Legionnaires, former French Foreign Legionnaires. It's known as the French Foreign Legion SAS squadron. That's what they were known as. So Karielwiss and Karaud, they have reasons to want to intervene. First off, this is a real SAS mission. This is 120 kilometers behind enemy lines. That's where the concentration camp is. So it's got SAS stamp all over it. Secondly, Karaud knows that there are former French Foreign Legionnaires in that camp. There's personal reason to go. Thirdly, Carrie Elwes is the son of a champagne merchant and he spent half his life in France. He's a massive francophone, he's got a reason to go to the camp. So they start to cook up a mission with Zelko, the escaped Yugoslav partisan. And the problem is that because their mission has been so rushed, Operation Slapstick, they've got like just a handful of jeeps and they've had to, you know, scavenge a 1916 Renault school bus and various other things to transport their men around. They do not have the transport to get there. And even if they had the transport to get to the camp, how would they bring hundreds of concentration camp victims back again? Obviously, that's just impossible. So they obviously set upon the idea of stealing or hijacking a train. So from Cieterno railway station, getting the train, steaming it all the way through enemy territory, getting to the camp, obviously the camp guards are expecting a train to turn up because they're expecting a train to ship all the concentration camp inmates to Nazi Germany. So you take the camp by complete surprise, because that's what they're expecting. And then you load all the concentration camps internees aboard the train and you steam them back again. That is the plan. But there's one problem I didn't know before writing the book how hard it is to drive a steam train. It's really difficult. It's not like an electric push a button, you know, you have to put shovel the coal and get the boiler up to right temperature, get the steam
- [34:16]
Dan Snow
pressure up and not too much coal. Too much coal. You've got a big problem as well. It's got to be just the right amount. Yeah.
- [34:22]
Damian Lewis
So this is a real art. And within the ranks of two SAs on the ground, they had no one who could drive a train. So Cary Ellis gets in his jeep and he thinks, aha. The 261 Field Park Company. It's an engineering airborne company are nearby. They'll have someone. So he drives over there, meets Colonel Henneker. No, Major Henneker. Sorry. The commander of the 261 Field Park Company says, yes, I need a train driver. Do you have any? And he says, I think we've got two. So they parade the men and the sergeant major says, anyone who can drive a train and take a few steps forward. And two individuals do. And sapper Elkin is volunteered on the spot by major Heniker to join Carri Ellis's mission. So poor old sapper Elkin jumps on the jeep and zooms off with Carrie Elvis back to Chinato railway station. Having been volunteered for lord knows what, he doesn't have a clue what mission he's let himself in for. And when as the jeep disappears, Henneke suddenly thinks to himself, what have I done? I've let one of my men disappear into the distance with a man I've never met before. I just like the cut of his jib. So therefore decided to run with it. But clearly they're off on a piratical mission of an intensely suicidal nature. Elkin's probably never likely to come back. What am I going to tell his family? So Henneke thinks, I need to pray. I need to pray for his soul. So he goes to find the church. And then he realizes that it's a catholic church and he's a protestant. So he's hovering on the doorway thinking, can I really go in and pray in a catholic Church. And the padre of the Eunuch sees and says, sir, what's wrong? He says, I need to pray. Can I? You know, it's a Catholic church. And the padre says, they will welcome you just like any church anywhere, sir. They were praying in these churches here before we were in the uk. So Henneker goes in, says his prayers, feels a bit better, and comes out again. And meanwhile, poor old Sappor Elkin is at Ciatono railway station trying to get the Italian train that they have expropriated up to steam and ship shape to steam to Pistisi concentration camp to carry out the mission.
- [36:27]
Dan Snow
Now, Damien, how much knowledge did high command have of this particular operation? Because it seems like something they might not want to.
- [36:33]
Damian Lewis
Okay, Dan, All I can say is that at the end of the mission, there was no publicity and not a single medal was given out. So I suspect that nobody knew apart from those involved. But look, you know, that's how they operated in North Africa. All through the desert campaign, the SAS had operated pretty much as they saw fit. I mean, they were sent into the desert with a. With a brief, which was to raid the enemy's supply lines and communications, you know, by whatever means. And actually, at one stage, they did try to hijack a train for a mission in the North African desert. They tried to hijack a train and steam it through enemy lines to get to an ammo dump to blow it up. For various reasons, it didn't happen. So it wasn't as if trains were on the radar as a means to wage war. They were what trains were not on the radar to do. And this is an important point. They were not on their radar to execute humanitarian missions because this mission achieves no military objective whatsoever. You don't seize critical territory. You don't take out a critical enemy position. You don't even take out any real significant numbers of enemy troops. It's purely a mission carried out on humanitarian grounds. And there's something that I don't. I'll never be able to get to the bottom of it, I'm sure. But in that camp, in the pistol Pistisi concentration camp was. Was held, basically the Italian royal family. So Prince Filippo, I can't pronounce his full name. It goes on and on and on and on. But this is the individual who had. He. He had become known during the years of the war as the.
- [38:17]
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As.
- [38:17]
Damian Lewis
As the kind of underground mayor of Rome. So he had used his massive fortune to fund and organize all the escape lines out of Rome that were being run and Indeed, at one stage, you know, Prince Philippo owned, and the family still does, a thousand room palace in Rome which is a massive, massive art collection with the most wonderful artworks you can possibly imagine. At one stage Hitler had demanded access to it to probably scope it out so they could steal the whole lot. And Prince Philippa had refused him access as a dirt. You're not coming in. So this individual who had eventually been amassed by Mussolini's forces was held in Pistisi concentration camp. Carrie Elwes was from a very strong Catholic family. Bill Sterling and David Stirling were from a very strong Catholic family. They'd all gone to Amperforth, the strong Catholic boarding school and had schooled there together. So I'm wondering if there was some kind of behind the scenes connection from the Vatican to, you know, the Catholic figures in charge of the SS that kind of got this mission up and running as well.
- [39:24]
Dan Snow
I can imagine the theater commander going absolutely crazy when he, when he found out this was going on. Anyway, let's get back to that platform with our, with our man Elkins, is it? He's trying to get the train up and running. Does. Does what, what happens next?
- [39:36]
Damian Lewis
Karaud the. The crazy French Foreign Legionnaire with his French Foreign Legion score. And they load up and they're the guardians force on the train. There's also Alistair McGregor, Lieutenant Alistair McGregor with eight men of his patrol. He's a, he becomes a standout figure in the SAS throughout the war. A brilliant Scottish warrior. So that's the force on the train. But Cary Elwis has realized that to get the train through to Ch. Sorry, to Pistisi concentration camp, you have to pass through Metaponto Junction, which is a set of points. And if the points aren't thrown in the wrong direction, the train won't go the right way. So he split his force into two. There's a train bound force. Second part of the mission is he will lead a handful of jeeps and a few dozen men across enemy lines through enemy territory at night to get to Metapoton junction, to seize it, to set the points the right way. So the train will steam through and get to Pistitchi and then to hold the junction for all the time it takes for the train to steam back again so it can get back to Allied lines. So there's a two prong operation underway and they have to do the whole thing under cover of darkness. Why is that? Because Allied air power owns the skies over Italy obviously. Any train seen steaming through enemy territory will be presumed by Allied pilots to be an enemy train and they will take it out. So they risk being attacked by their own forces unless they can achieve the mission from sundown to sunrise the next morning. So that's exactly what they proceed to do. And they steam the train into enemy territory. And the beauty of this mission is this, Dan. If you're a German soldier and you're sat in your trench overlooking Allied positions at this time and you see a train steaming through the valley below you, are you going to think, oh, yeah, that train must be carrying a load of sas, or are you going to think, well, that train's obviously one of ours because it steaming through our territory, you're clearly never going to suspect it's anything other than one of your own. So the whole idea of that force aboard the train is that they are hiding in plain sight. They're not sat on the roof with their guns, you know, being overtly martial. They are hiding in plain sight inside the train so that everybody who sees it will presume the this is a train carrying German or Italian forces.
- [41:59]
Dan Snow
Well, as you said at the beginning, they're doing the unthinkable, they're doing the unthinkable, and they carry on doing that. So what happens next?
- [42:06]
Damian Lewis
So train steams all the way through. You know, they have no, no one suspects or uncovers who they are. They get there, they assault the camp, they kill or capture the guards. They start loading the concentration camp victims aboard the train. One of the first they put aboard the train, they captured the die hard fascist camp commandant of Pistisi concentration camp, Ercole. Super in his. In his wonderful gold braid covered colonel's uniform. He's one of the first aboard the train. And they can fit 180 of the most severely ill and wounded aboard the train. And the rest, they say, go into the hills, hide out for as long as it takes for our forces to get here because we're not that far away. So that's what they do. And then before leaving, Raymond Kural decides there's two jobs left to do. The first is there's a store with a safe. And in the safe is all the money that the camp commander used to pay his guards. So they rob the safe of hundreds of thousands of Italian lira because they, they figure they deserve a party after such an operation. And they go into the officer's mess and they remove 187 bottles of brandy and load those aboard the train as well. And then they proceed to steam it all the way back to Allied lines. And the mission is a complete and utter runaway success as no one could ever imagine. That train gets back to Tschulatola Rainbow Station before sun up. In fact, it's going like the clappers and it's going so fast. But Sapa Elkin fails to stop it in time and it crashes into the buffers. But at least they've all got back safely.
- [43:52]
Dan Snow
Yeah, I'll bet. I bet Sappor Elkin was a lot, a lot keener to get home than he was about slowing the train down to a safe arrival speed. He must have been extremely pleased. Now, were there any shots fired in this operation? Was there any resistance at all?
- [44:04]
Damian Lewis
Yeah, I mean, obviously assaulting the camp, you know, turned into a firefight. But the great thing about the camp assault is that Zelko, the Yugoslav partisan who's alerted to the camp in the first place, has got word back into the camp that they're coming. And so it's not just an SAS assault from the outside, by the way. The SAS are heavily outnumbered. I mean, something like 10 to 1 outnumbered, but you know, they're attacking at night by complete surprise. So they attack by complete surprise. But also the camp inmates rise up and some of them have managed to wrestle weapons off the camp guard. So it's a two stage operation in terms of the battle to take the concentration camp.
- [44:39]
Dan Snow
Damien, I'll stop you right there. Don't go. Everyone, we're going to take another ad break. More Damien and the SAS coming up after this.
- [44:48]
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- [45:24]
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- [46:29]
Dan Snow
So, Damien, when they got back to Friendly Lines, they had a train full of people who'd they discover that they'd managed to rescue?
- [46:36]
Damian Lewis
Yes, a great question. So one of those aboard the train obviously was, you know, this incredible Italian prince, Prince Filippo Doria Pamphilandi, who, you know, was known throughout Italy as the kind of underground mayor of Rome who had organized all these escape lines and funded them. An extremely wealthy guy, he would be appointed by the Allies in due course as the first official mayor of Rome. So a really significant figure, but also something that's just so brilliant about the whole operation. When they get back to Ciritona railway station, bear in mind, remember I said there's lots of, you know, resistance fighters and partisans in that camp. Any number of them volunteer on the spot to join the SAS because they've seen the way these guys operate and they think, boy, we want some of this. This is, you know, we want to be with these. This is the kind of outfit we want to soldier in. So several of them are recruited on the spot to join the sas and some of those individuals soldier with the SAS throughout Italy and then into Europe and into Germany itself. And some of them settle in the UK after the war and their families have been raised in the uk. Absolutely brilliant.
- [47:47]
Dan Snow
And yet you think the fact that high command did not make any noise about this at all, no one was decorated, mentioned dispatch, and I think you think that suggests that it was all it was, it was executed. It was conceived and executed really without asking anyone's permission or telling anybody else. That's just remarkable, isn't it?
- [48:06]
Damian Lewis
It was an inconvenient truth, Dan. I mean, lots of reasons to keep it quiet. The first was it's a concentration camp, you know, what are the Allies doing about the concentration camps? Well, nothing, you know, Italy's now on our side. They've signed the armistice of Casabile so that, you know, they are now the good guys, supposedly. We don't want the good guys having concentration camps and, you know, we're going to come across more of these things, what are we going to do? And get to the next ones, you know, for all those reasons, it just was an inconvenient truth. But it was also an inconvenient truth because the mission was carried out by this unit who pretty much did it just off their own back. There's not a single decoration given. The only, the only decoration that there's an attempt to give after the raid is not via the SAS, it's via the 261 Field Park Company. They put forward Saper Elkin, rightly for a Military Cross, and I understand he ended up getting a mention in dispatches, so even he wasn't, you know, properly rewarded for his incredible die hard heroism. But as for the rest of them, nothing at all. No publicity, nothing ever said about it, never mentioned in the press, and no decorations. I mean, it's inconceivable that you can carry out an operation of that daring and scope and magnitude and heroism and moral courage. They liberated a concentration camp and rescued everybody they could, they could bring back. And yet there's not a single gone given.
- [49:44]
Dan Snow
Damien, we all know that you have access to all sorts of sources and archives that we can only dream of. But what, how did you come across this, this story? It must have been a really difficult one to tease out.
- [49:54]
Damian Lewis
100. So I first came across a mention of it in the papers of Colonel Blair Maine going through his war chest in Northern Ireland. I didn't believe it was just one paragraph in a report. And I thought, no, that can't be true. Come on. I mean, if that was true, we'd know about it, surely something like that. So then begins the process of digging. And I dug and I dug and I dug. And just one kind of example of how serendipitously, I mean, almost like fate this story came about. I was actually writing it. I was thousands of words into writing it. And I just thought, you know, this lacks that. Real soldiers beat, that real essence and atmosphere of somebody on the ground. And I'd been approached about three years ago by a lady called Joe Hussey. And she said, my granddad was in two SAS in the war. He wrote his account of his war years. We don't know if any of it's true. Would you like to read it? So I broke off the writing and I contacted her, said, can I come and have a look? You know, I'm just, you know, I'm in having a Break. I just, you know, fancy having a read. So I drove up to Bournemouth, where they live, and I met Jo and her mum, Diane. So there was this lovely scene in the kitchen with coffee and tea and lemon drizzle cake and big piles of archive and photo albums and this thick manuscript. And I said to Debbie, the daughter, I don't even know your father's name. What was he called? He said his name was George Arnold, but don't worry, no one's ever heard of him. He's in none of the books. I can't find anything about him published anywhere. I don't even know what in his manuscript is true. And the hairs on the back of my neck went up. I said, I'm 80,000 words into writing the story of your father and his patrol in Italy. I said, I'll be able to tell you everything in that book which is true or not true, because I've done all the research in the Q archives, in the French archives, but also in the American archives, because your father ends up deploying again into behind the lines in Italy to rescue on POW operations. And he does so in conjunction with the oss, the Office of Strategic Services, the American equivalent of the Special Operations Executive, Churchill Ministry of Humanity Warfare. I have all that material. I'll send it all to you tonight. And she said something like, you know, there's even a bit in the book where they hijack a train and go to a concentration camp. And I said, it is entirely true. And, you know, that was. That was an incredibly emotional day. You know, she was pretty much in tears. Could you imagine it? You've lived all your life with this amazing. Dad doesn't really talk about the war, though when he does, he's only joking. Such the common refrain, won't talk about the serious stuff. And then he passes away and you find he's written a manuscript about his war years, obviously for the family. And you read it and you think, I can't believe that. And you research it and there's nothing ever written anywhere else. And then suddenly, from out of the blue, this crazy author turns up and says, well, I'm writing his story and I'll send you all the files.
- [53:01]
Dan Snow
Well, Damian Lewis, I would call you Lucky, but I've known you long enough to know that these things keep happening to you. So it's not luck, it's what being a brilliant researcher and historian is all about. And we're very grateful for you coming on the podcast, very grateful for you writing these stories. I don't need to ask But I'm sure you've got more in the pipeline.
- [53:19]
Damian Lewis
The launch of my new book's coming up in like, it's Monday today, Thursday. Okay. She's going to be there with her husband. Okay. Debbie Hussey with her husband, Alma Gregor. So the commander of the patrol, his son Hamish is going to be there. They've never met before, Right. And there's going to be half a dozen other family members all turning up for the launch, and they're all going to meet each other and be able to exchange stories. Those kind of moments are really special. That's what really makes it, you know, a fantastic experience, you know, putting together these kind of stories because we can't do it anymore. Dan. With World War II veterans, there are none left from the SAS. We have so very many, few left from, you know, any units of, from World War II. So now we're reliant on, upon these kind of things happening. People, you know, going up into their attics and dragging down the war chest and finding something.
- [54:12]
Dan Snow
Well, with their permission, obviously. But make sure you record that conversation because I'm sure there'll be little things that trigger, trigger memories and trigger anecdotes that could prove very, very exciting indeed. Damian Lewis, you absolute legend. Thank you very much for coming on this show. Tell everyone what the new book is called.
- [54:27]
Damian Lewis
Yes. So the new book's called SDS Great Escapes 5. And Alma Gregor and George Arnold's escape is one of the stories. Operation Speedwell with Pinckney and George Arnold is another stories in the book. So, yeah, it's just a cracking read of these incredible missions deep behind enemy lines and how they escape after them.
- [54:47]
Dan Snow
Well, thanks so much and I look forward to talking to you next time, Damien, for more of this kind of stuff.
- [54:51]
Damian Lewis
Brilliant. So good to be there again.
- [54:53]
Dan Snow
Well, folks, I think we're gonna leave it there for today, but that was completely extreme. Extraordinary. What a tale of daring do carried out by an elite unit operating at the very edge of what seemed possible. Frankly, well over the edge. That forgotten SAS mission reminds us just how unconventional the war could be. And I think also how much of the story of World War II still lies hidden in the shadows of history. My thanks to Damian Lewis for bringing this remarkable raid to life. You can learn more about the raid by buying his book, the Great Train Raid, or hear all about other incredible stories of Sas Derring do in his latest book, Sas Great Escapes 5, which came out earlier this month. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to follow this channel and share it with someone who loves history as well. I'm very grateful if you do that. Thank you very much for listening. Until next time.
- [56:10]
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- [56:47]
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- [57:00]
Dan Snow
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